บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ S9 "Evil By Design" E5: ‘It’s always been known in Winnipeg’

once-booming garment trade 37 00:02:36.069 --> 00:02:38.969 was shrinking, but he was still a major employer. 38 00:02:40.569 --> 00:02:44.030 He definitely had a big share of the market in 39 00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:48.780 the retail, the clothing manufacturing, and certainly Winnipeg was concerned 40 00:02:48.810 --> 00:02:52.689 about the fashion industry, because with the trade deal coming in, 41 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:55.889 a lot of that work was being sent offshore. 42 00:02:58.030 --> 00:03:00.770 By this time, there had been rumors and whispers about 43 00:03:00.830 --> 00:03:03.289 Nygaard's predatory behavior for years. 44 00:03:05.270 --> 00:03:08.409 People tell women to stay away from Peter Nygaard. There's 45 00:03:08.430 --> 00:03:11.659 an undercurrent of, he's not a reputable guy. 46 00:03:13.310 --> 00:03:15.539 Bev Suick is a rights advocate who has spent much 47 00:03:15.580 --> 00:03:17.919 of her life trying to improve the conditions of working 48 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:18.819 women in Winnipeg. 49 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.439 You hear someone who had a friend who worked there 50 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:28.379 and felt she had to leave because of harassment. It's 51 00:03:28.539 --> 00:03:31.840 always been known in Winnipeg that there's a problem there. 52 00:03:34.469 --> 00:03:38.469 While numerous women quietly exchanged warnings about Nygaard, only one 53 00:03:38.569 --> 00:03:40.990 allegation ever made it to criminal court at the time. 54 00:03:42.289 --> 00:03:45.289 In 1980, Nygaard was charged with the rape of an 18-year-old, 55 00:03:45.830 --> 00:03:49.990 an accusation he denied. Prosecutors got the young woman to 56 00:03:50.030 --> 00:03:53.349 the stand, but she refused to answer questions, leaving the 57 00:03:53.389 --> 00:03:56.219 judge no option but to call a halt to the proceedings. 58 00:03:57.599 --> 00:04:01.740 The charge was then stayed, and Nygaard came away vindicated. 59 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.340 I've talked to people recently with this whole issue coming 60 00:04:07.419 --> 00:04:09.699 up and saying, well, did you know that there was 61 00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.000 something going on? I haven't met a person yet who 62 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:16.810 said no. You know, old, young, everybody seems to. know 63 00:04:16.850 --> 00:04:20.889 that there's something going on, but there was just nothing tangible. 64 00:04:23.209 --> 00:04:27.329 Nygaard continued to enjoy his reputation as a womanizer. One 65 00:04:27.370 --> 00:04:32.069 magazine called him one of Canada's most eligible millionaires. A 66 00:04:32.129 --> 00:04:34.750 profile began with the line, Peter Nygaard was in bed 67 00:04:34.790 --> 00:04:38.269 with Miss Sweden when the telephone call came. That article 68 00:04:38.310 --> 00:04:40.980 was published just weeks after he was charged with rape. 69 00:04:42.310 --> 00:04:44.639 And even into the 90s, Nygaard was asked in a 70 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:50.170 free press interview about his playboy, jet-setter lifestyle. For decades, 71 00:04:50.209 --> 00:04:53.990 his public image remained mostly unscathed. But a group of 72 00:04:54.029 --> 00:04:57.250 women who'd worked for Nygaard were about to change that. 73 00:05:00.870 --> 00:05:04.990 It was three women who had left Nygaard because of 74 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:10.019 the abusive atmosphere and brought their complaints to the Manitoba 75 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.180 Human Rights Commission. and so launched a suit against Nygaard 76 00:05:14.259 --> 00:05:21.189 for abusive behavior, harassment, and sexual harassment. I spoke to 77 00:05:21.230 --> 00:05:25.269 those three initially, and then was, you know, the cascade 78 00:05:25.290 --> 00:05:27.930 effect was given other names, people that not only could 79 00:05:28.029 --> 00:05:31.300 corroborate what they were talking about, but who had also 80 00:05:31.689 --> 00:05:34.100 suffered similar abusive behavior. 81 00:05:36.379 --> 00:05:38.160 So they generally. 82 00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:40.300 Talked about picking up the phone and then just a 83 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:44.199 cascade of screams, a torrent of abuse that way. He 84 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:48.899 would make sexual comments constantly, sort of in the joking manner, 85 00:05:49.550 --> 00:05:53.370 description of his office, as we've all heard, the bed 86 00:05:53.410 --> 00:05:57.850 in the office, how he would touch them inappropriately, touching 87 00:05:57.889 --> 00:06:02.889 their bodies, and also fondling himself. And it was just 88 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:06.180 remarkable that these women put up with what they did 89 00:06:06.819 --> 00:06:07.399 for so long. 90 00:06:11.050 --> 00:06:14.589 The allegations came at a time when women everywhere, all 91 00:06:14.629 --> 00:06:17.870 too often, faced difficult and abusive work environments. 92 00:06:19.689 --> 00:06:23.589 I do remember very clearly what it was like. It 93 00:06:23.629 --> 00:06:26.250 was kind of like put up or shut up. Most women, 94 00:06:26.300 --> 00:06:30.259 when they faced sexual harassment and couldn't put up with it, 95 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:34.379 would leave. Like, that was really your only option. You 96 00:06:34.420 --> 00:06:38.420 might think about complaining, but it wouldn't do you any good. 97 00:06:38.620 --> 00:06:41.600 First of all, people wouldn't take you seriously. It's either 98 00:06:42.139 --> 00:06:44.300 you must have brought it on yourself, it's the way 99 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:48.129 you dress. Did he really do that? You know, he 100 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:52.790 might have touched your bum, but like, how serious is that? So, 101 00:06:52.810 --> 00:06:55.529 you know, what could you do? You did put up 102 00:06:55.589 --> 00:06:57.970 with it. And, you know, for a lot of women, 103 00:06:58.670 --> 00:07:02.129 you didn't want to be the spoilsport in the place either, especially, 104 00:07:02.149 --> 00:07:05.199 you know, most

women then were not in management positions 105 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:10.120 or positions of power. They were clerks, secretaries, waitresses, and 106 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:14.689 If you wanted to get ahead, you wanted to pretend 107 00:07:14.740 --> 00:07:17.519 you were like one of the boys. You could laugh 108 00:07:17.579 --> 00:07:21.120 at the jokes, the sexist, gross jokes that you really 109 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:24.720 didn't want to laugh at, but you did. And that's 110 00:07:24.779 --> 00:07:26.800 just the way it was. You just put up with it. 111 00:07:31.420 --> 00:07:34.579 To be clear, these attitudes weren't unique to this small 112 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.600 Canadian prairie city. We only need to look to the 113 00:07:37.629 --> 00:07:41.319 biggest sex scandal of the 90s, the Clinton-Lewinsky affair, to 114 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.339 see how a powerful man's behavior got a pass, and 115 00:07:44.379 --> 00:07:46.139 the woman raked over the coals. 116 00:07:46.980 --> 00:07:50.399 It's against the law to get your friend a job. Shit, 117 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:52.819 she blew him for a couple of months. 118 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:56.120 The least he could do is give her a recommendation. 119 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:58.110 He ain't reverend Clinton. 120 00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:00.550 It ain't passed to Clinton. 121 00:08:01.370 --> 00:08:02.730 It is just Bill Clinton. 122 00:08:02.769 --> 00:08:03.569 He's just a man. 123 00:08:03.610 --> 00:08:06.370 A man gonna be a man. A man is basically 124 00:08:06.470 --> 00:08:08.209 as faithful as his options. 125 00:08:10.269 --> 00:08:12.629 Despite the attitudes of the time, a group of women 126 00:08:12.649 --> 00:08:18.740 in Winnipeg risked their reputations to take on Nygaard. Catherine's 127 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.819 story comes out in the summer of 1996. It dominates 128 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:27.040 the Saturday edition of the Winnipeg Free Press. Disturbing, deeply 129 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:31.120 reported allegations of abuse and sexual harassment are against Winnipeg's 130 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:35.559 Golden Boy. It's a blockbuster, among the first reporting of 131 00:08:35.620 --> 00:08:37.419 its kind to take on Peter Nygaard. 132 00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:44.080 I came into work on the Monday morning and my 133 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:48.519 voicemail was full. And the phone calls continued through the week. 134 00:08:48.659 --> 00:08:51.879 It was just sort of a string of people who 135 00:08:51.950 --> 00:08:55.529 were coming out of the woodwork with their stories about 136 00:08:55.909 --> 00:08:57.370 what they put up with when they worked there. 137 00:08:59.009 --> 00:09:02.870 In addition to former co-workers or workers who were still there, 138 00:09:02.929 --> 00:09:05.850 who were sharing their stories, they were being called by 139 00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:11.710 Nygaard employees, management employees, because needless to say, Nygaard International 140

00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:12.769 was not happy about this. 141 00:09:13.379 --> 00:09:15.120 I mean, there's always a cost when you come forward, 142 00:09:15.649 --> 00:09:16.159 and I think. 143 00:09:16.049 --> 00:09:18.139 It speaks to their courage, their bravery. 144 00:09:22.659 --> 00:09:27.210 Almost immediately, Nygaard threatened the paper with a lawsuit. But 145 00:09:27.250 --> 00:09:30.889 Catherine continued to gather women's accounts, planning for more stories 146 00:09:30.929 --> 00:09:31.429 to follow. 147 00:09:34.370 --> 00:09:39.129 This was obviously pre-Me Too era. We were still dealing 148 00:09:39.169 --> 00:09:42.360 in a general culture, I would say, societal culture of 149 00:09:42.620 --> 00:09:45.259 can't you take a joke kind of thing. And it 150 00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:50.019 was clear that this wasn't the occasional comment that was 151 00:09:50.059 --> 00:09:55.159 misinterpreted or just the guys having fun kind of thing. 152 00:09:56.190 --> 00:09:59.710 This was a pattern of behavior, and it was very abusive. 153 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:06.379 Of the many tips that flooded the newsroom, there was 154 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:08.250 one story that stood out. 155 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:19.269 Well, I'm born in the country on a family farm. 156 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.100 We're sitting in Jana Larsson's home in northern Denmark. Her 157 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:28.580 house is tucked away on one of the town's main streets, 158 00:10:29.100 --> 00:10:32.399 near a small square with cafes, a church, and a museum. 159 00:10:33.350 --> 00:10:37.470 The town itself overlooks the fjords. Jana is in her 160 00:10:37.490 --> 00:10:42.190 70s now and retired. She's warm and welcoming, but also 161 00:10:42.230 --> 00:10:44.470 looks as though she's bracing herself for what's to come. 162 00:10:45.870 --> 00:10:48.669 She takes a seat in her favorite chair. Her daughter 163 00:10:48.690 --> 00:10:49.929 Sita hovers nearby. 164 00:10:53.429 --> 00:10:57.120 When I was very young, my mom and dad told 165 00:10:57.220 --> 00:11:01.080 me that they wanted to go to Canada. 166 00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:07.419 For Janne's family, Canada seemed to promise a better future. 167 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:13.720 Then after many years, like I was working with the 168 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:18.169 clothing industry and I got pregnant when I was 18, 169 00:11:18.169 --> 00:11:22.309 so I never got a degree. But I was very 170 00:11:22.370 --> 00:11:25.970 good at being a seamstress and designing things. 171 00:11:27.789 --> 00:11:31.190 It was the early 70s. Jana was an ambitious 20-something 172 00:11:31.610 --> 00:11:35.210 when a door opened. She was offered work in Canada. 173 00:11:37.289 --> 00:11:41.759 I have never been afraid of trying new things. Well, 174 00:11:43.379 --> 00:11:47.440 I fell in love with Canada right away. My daughter 175 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.840 came and joined me, and I got a good job. 176 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:52.080 At Levi's. 177 00:11:53.820 --> 00:11:57.240 Then, after being headhunted, she's offered a job at Nygaard's company, 178 00:11:57.559 --> 00:11:58.879 called Tanjay at the time. 179 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:04.879 I'd never heard about it. I didn't wear Nygaard clothing. 180 00:12:06.379 --> 00:12:08.830 I've never seen it anywhere. 181 00:12:11.610 --> 00:12:14.409 In 1980, while she was getting ready for her first day, 182 00:12:15.149 --> 00:12:16.529 Nygaard was in the news. 183 00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:23.610 They said that Mr. Nygaard of 10J was charged with 184 00:12:24.289 --> 00:12:30.919 raping a girl. And I was like, what? I hadn't 185 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.860 met him. I didn't know who he was. I have 186 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:38.059 checked the company I was in. But I've never seen 187 00:12:38.179 --> 00:12:44.960 anything at that time about accusations of sexual harassment or anything. 188 00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:51.059 And I was just shocked. And I thought, well, what 189 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.299 do I do now? Well, I'll have to ask some questions. 190 00:12:56.399 --> 00:12:57.960 She talked with a company executive. 191 00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:03.419 So he said, there are so many girls, they just 192 00:13:03.500 --> 00:13:06.179 say a lot of things about Nygaard, and he has 193 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:08.779 lots of money, and they think they can get a 194 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:11.539 lot out of him, and this is not true, and 195 00:13:11.899 --> 00:13:17.370 this has never happened before, or like, He was trying 196 00:13:17.450 --> 00:13:23.549 to polish the whole thing. I arrived and saw all 197 00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:28.799 these posters of Nygaard. By that time, I hadn't met 198 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.759 him in person. I just thought he looked ugly. Sorry, 199 00:13:34.460 --> 00:13:40.360 but that's what I thought. Like an overgrown teenager in 200 00:13:40.419 --> 00:13:45.000 his open shirts and his pointed fingers in the belt loops. 201 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:51.490 I thought, oh, At first, Jonna's interactions with Nygaard were rare. 202 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:54.370 But the longer she was at Tangier, the more she 203 00:13:54.450 --> 00:13:56.159 found herself in Nygaard's company. 204 00:13:57.809 --> 00:14:02.629 He was overly nice, but I didn't think of him 205 00:14:02.809 --> 00:14:10.000 as a nice person. He looked strange. I can't explain it. 206 00:14:10.409 --> 00:14:13.509 He tried to smile, but his mouth was smiling, but 207 00:14:13.570 --> 00:14:14.309 not his eyes. 208 00:14:18.230 --> 00:14:18.509 I was. 209 00:14:19.340 --> 00:14:23.279 put on a pedestal like I was something fantastic from 210 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.639 Denmark and I was good at designing and it made 211 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:35.779 me feel comfortable. But Nygaard made me feel uncomfortable. Even 212 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.090 when I had to present the line that I had 213 00:14:39.350 --> 00:14:44.470

designed and was called up on the podium to show 214 00:14:44.490 --> 00:14:48.049 the things I had done and I used myself as 215 00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:53.299 a model a suggestion from an eye guard, that he 216 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.639 would go up and he would touch my breast and, well, 217 00:14:56.659 --> 00:14:59.240 you have to lift this because your one breast is 218 00:14:59.320 --> 00:14:59.960 too low. 219 00:15:02.299 --> 00:15:04.379 The others in the room said nothing. 220 00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:09.389 They were just the ten men sitting there like they 221 00:15:09.429 --> 00:15:13.490 had nothing to do. Nobody has ever put me in 222 00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:19.019 such an uncomfortable situation. But I knew that at that time, 223 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:23.980 that he had the final word in everything. And I 224 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:29.080 could not afford to complain about anything because we were 225 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:34.559 going to establish a life in Canada. And I was 226 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:41.879 beginning to form plans not being a tendier. But everything 227 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:44.210 went so fast. Then I had to do this. Then 228 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:46.750 I had to go across Canada. Then I had to 229 00:15:46.789 --> 00:15:51.090 make a line. Then I had all eight seamstresses working 230 00:15:51.169 --> 00:15:56.269 for me or under me. And I was working almost 231 00:15:56.269 --> 00:15:57.169 24 hours a day. 232 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:01.960 One of the few perks of the job was business travel. 233 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.279 Before long, Jana's role required her to fly to Southeast Asia, 234 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:08.159 where Nygaard had production centers. 235 00:16:11.179 --> 00:16:16.240 He announced that he was going to take me on 236 00:16:16.299 --> 00:16:19.000 a trip to the Far East. 237 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.740 Yana's travel itinerary from 40 years ago is a blur. 238 00:16:24.620 --> 00:16:27.480 She visited various cities in Asia more than once, including 239 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:30.840 Hong Kong and Taipei. And she has the passport stamps 240 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.799 to prove it. Her recollection, however, has changed over time 241 00:16:35.259 --> 00:16:39.279 about exactly where it happened. But she's never wavered about 242 00:16:39.379 --> 00:16:39.940 what happened. 243 00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:46.360 The manager took me to my room that was on 244 00:16:46.379 --> 00:16:51.019 the top floor and a huge room. And I was 245 00:16:51.090 --> 00:16:55.370 just a country girl still at that time. I'd never 246 00:16:55.450 --> 00:17:01.830 seen anything like it. There was chocolates and stationery with 247 00:17:01.929 --> 00:17:07.599 my name on it and one room connected to another room. 248 00:17:09.730 --> 00:17:12.769 Jana asked a hotel employee to secure the door to 249 00:17:12.789 --> 00:17:13.569 the adjoining room. 250 00:17:15.390 --> 00:17:20.119 He locked the door, took the

handle out, and showed 251 00:17:20.150 --> 00:17:24.619 me the key and put it in his pocket. I 252 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:32.279 just wanted to be safe. I had jet lag. I 253 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:37.039 was tired. I was just so happy finally to get 254 00:17:37.099 --> 00:17:41.720 to bed. That was a long trip from Winnipeg. And 255 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:45.559 about 1.30, and I know the time because there was 256 00:17:45.579 --> 00:17:50.380 a clock with the illuminated numbers on it. There was 257 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:58.349 somebody in my bed. And I woke up and I 258 00:17:58.410 --> 00:18:03.250 saw it was Nygaard. And I was about to say 259 00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:07.799 something and he put his hand over my mouth. He said, 260 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:12.920 just don't worry, you're a nice girl and I'm not 261 00:18:12.980 --> 00:18:27.329 going to hurt you. But he raped me. I felt dirty. 262 00:18:28.849 --> 00:18:33.609 He's a big person. Like I couldn't do anything. And 263 00:18:33.650 --> 00:18:37.460 he said, well... This is just it. Don't go to 264 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.119 the police. You won't get anything out of it. But 265 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:44.440 after he left, I got up and I sat in 266 00:18:44.500 --> 00:18:48.059 a chair and I cried and I thought it was, 267 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:53.119 I just couldn't stay at Tangier anymore, but I didn't 268 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:57.160 know what to do. Everything was just. 269 00:18:59.160 --> 00:18:59.509 Bad. 270 00:19:04.210 --> 00:19:08.329 Thinking back, I could have quit my job right there, 271 00:19:08.490 --> 00:19:14.109 but I didn't know how to survive. I buried it. 272 00:19:15.650 --> 00:19:19.190 Like I remember saying to myself, I'll make sure that 273 00:19:19.299 --> 00:19:24.680 I'm never alone with this man again. I think I 274 00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:28.900 was afraid of being fired. I wasn't ready for that 275 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:32.799 because I didn't have a plan what to do next. 276 00:19:34.519 --> 00:19:39.720 I remember sitting in the chair crying that everything was 277 00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:47.029 just a bit a mess. And I thought, well, maybe 278 00:19:47.049 --> 00:19:53.480 it will go away. now it's like it happened yesterday. 279 00:20:02.269 --> 00:20:05.130 All of this time Jana's daughter Zita has been sitting 280 00:20:05.210 --> 00:20:08.970 quietly at a nearby table she gets up and walks 281 00:20:09.069 --> 00:20:13.039 over to her mother They embrace and cry quietly together. 282 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:16.220 She tells her mother she loves her. 283 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:24.089 It's good having my daughter here as well. I never 284 00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:28.349 think that I really told her the details. It's unpleasant, 285 00:20:29.069 --> 00:20:32.089 but yet I feel good about her knowing it. 286 00:20:38.710 --> 00:20:41.700 In the morning, Jana saw no other option but to 287 00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:42.440 return to work. 288 00:20:44.619 --> 00:20:47.799 The next morning, we were called down at 8 o'clock, 289 00:20:47.900 --> 00:20:53.940 full office of workers and people showing fabrics and very 290 00:20:54.039 --> 00:21:00.460 busy around, and Nygaard was already there, and I didn't 291 00:21:00.509 --> 00:21:03.650 really know where to look and what to do with myself, 292 00:21:03.769 --> 00:21:06.490 but I felt his eyes on my back all the time. 293 00:21:07.490 --> 00:21:12.849 But I was very careful, not to be too close 294 00:21:12.890 --> 00:21:17.690 to him. I didn't want to think about it. Because 295 00:21:17.750 --> 00:21:24.920 I was doing my job, I had a desire to 296 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:27.859 talk to somebody about it the next day. 297 00:21:30.259 --> 00:21:33.250 Jana says she told a senior Nygaard executive, who was 298 00:21:33.289 --> 00:21:35.029 traveling with her in Asia at the time. 299 00:21:37.329 --> 00:21:40.059 He asked if I was going to do something about it. 300 00:21:41.990 --> 00:21:45.410 I took that to mean go to the police. I said, well, 301 00:21:45.430 --> 00:21:49.869 I don't think that's an option to me in my situation. 302 00:21:50.769 --> 00:21:56.250 And then he was very, like, empathetic. I felt he 303 00:21:56.289 --> 00:22:00.809 was sorry. Whether he believed me or not, I don't 304 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:01.410 really know. 305 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:07.200 We tracked that executive down. He had stayed and moved 306 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:10.039 up the ranks of the Nygaard companies, but says he 307 00:22:10.099 --> 00:22:13.700 has no recollection of Jana at all, or her allegation. 308 00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:18.700 When Jana returned to Winnipeg, she threw herself into her 309 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:21.009 work and the launch of a new clothing line. 310 00:22:22.829 --> 00:22:26.309 So I was working, working, working. And as long as 311 00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:30.089 I was working, I didn't think about this and what 312 00:22:30.150 --> 00:22:35.730 happened to me. It was secondary. I was working. And 313 00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:39.930 I was making sure that we had a life, my 314 00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:43.299 daughter and I, in Winnipeg. And that was the most 315 00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:44.519 important thing to me. 316 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.460 But in the months that followed, Janice's Nygaard continued to 317 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:52.079 torment her. 318 00:22:55.420 --> 00:22:59.970 He followed me home. He followed me in his Excalibur. 319 00:23:00.289 --> 00:23:03.210 So I knew it was him. And he scared me. 320 00:23:04.369 --> 00:23:05.230 I was afraid of him. 321 00:23:08.019 --> 00:23:10.599 We've already heard of Nygaard keeping tabs on the women 322 00:23:10.700 --> 00:23:12.000 he's been accused of assaulting. 323 00:23:14.660 --> 00:23:18.420 Then one day he came to the front door with 324 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.900 an excuse, and if I had a few minutes, so 325 00:23:21.980 --> 00:23:27.759 I let him

in. And he sat down and he 326 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:31.079 had lots of time. I said, well, I'm helping Sita 327 00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:35.200 with her homework, and I don't really have time. What 328 00:23:35.299 --> 00:23:39.039 is it you want? And Then he made something up. 329 00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:46.109 But she knew or she felt that I wanted to 330 00:23:46.150 --> 00:23:48.829 get rid of him. So she was like, Mom, are 331 00:23:48.849 --> 00:23:51.730 you finished soon? Because I have to do this homework. 332 00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:53.950 So then he left. 333 00:23:57.140 --> 00:24:00.660 Jana felt safer at home. But at work, it was 334 00:24:00.700 --> 00:24:01.940 impossible to escape him. 335 00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:09.240 Nygaard had been on my back for quite a while, 336 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:16.059 yelling and screaming. Thinking about it, I think because I 337 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:21.940 started to develop a lot of resentment. I thought he 338 00:24:21.980 --> 00:24:26.779 was a jerk. And I remember that I had a 339 00:24:26.859 --> 00:24:31.680 hard time not showing it. So when he got up 340 00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:35.720 and he would do, your breast is too low and 341 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:39.569 you have to do this here because I would just 342 00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:46.950 take his arm away. He wasn't in doubt that I 343 00:24:47.009 --> 00:24:51.339 didn't like him at all. Because of the rape, because 344 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:56.619 of the sexual harassment, because of the harassment in front 345 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:01.819 of all the people I worked with daily, he was 346 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:04.980 just yelling and screaming at me at the end. 347 00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:11.329 Then, in the summer of 1981, less than two years 348 00:25:11.490 --> 00:25:14.509 since she began working for Nygaard, Jana is called into 349 00:25:14.529 --> 00:25:18.190 the office of another senior executive, a man Jana had 350 00:25:18.269 --> 00:25:19.150 never reported to. 351 00:25:20.910 --> 00:25:25.549 I see him still sitting in his chair with the 352 00:25:25.630 --> 00:25:29.109 legs on the table in front of him, leaned back. 353 00:25:30.089 --> 00:25:34.019 I said, you called me. Yes, you're fired. 354 00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:37.619 She wants to know Why? 355 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:45.069 I said, well, Mr. Nygaard had asked me to fire you. 356 00:25:46.549 --> 00:25:50.869 And then I cried. And all of a sudden, I 357 00:25:50.910 --> 00:25:55.390 got extremely mad. And I yelled at him. I remember 358 00:25:55.630 --> 00:26:00.049 I said, Mr. Nygaard will regret this. I'm going to 359 00:26:00.089 --> 00:26:05.170 the police. Then he was up in a second. What 360 00:26:05.190 --> 00:26:09.789 do you mean? And I told him he had raped me. 361 00:26:09.809 --> 00:26:15.190 And then I walked out and I remember slamming the 362 00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:17.609 door because I was so mad I just had to 363 00:26:17.630 --> 00:26:29.940 get it

out of my system. I remember having a thought, 364 00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:35.609 I have to have a new job fast and Are 365 00:26:35.650 --> 00:26:41.089 they going to believe me? And the company might turn 366 00:26:41.150 --> 00:26:46.079 it around that I had done something wrong. Like, I 367 00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:50.759 really didn't know what to do. I was sad and 368 00:26:50.819 --> 00:26:51.480 I was mad. 369 00:26:54.579 --> 00:26:57.359 Within hours of her dismissal, Jana says she got a 370 00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:01.210 visit from two senior Nygaard employees. They'd come to make 371 00:27:01.250 --> 00:27:04.950 a deal. If she agreed to stay quiet... they would 372 00:27:04.990 --> 00:27:13.789 change her firing to a resignation and give her $ 8, 000. 373 00:27:10.630 --> 00:27:13.309 With no other work lined up, Jana felt she had 374 00:27:13.390 --> 00:27:17.259 no choice but to take it. For months, she tried 375 00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:20.680 to find another job in fashion, but doors closed on 376 00:27:20.740 --> 00:27:21.940 her at every turn. 377 00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:30.470 I thought, does Nygaard have something on anybody in the 378 00:27:30.529 --> 00:27:36.359 jean business in Winnipeg? since nobody dared to speak to me. 379 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.740 I tried to hang in there, selling Mary Kay products 380 00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:49.109 in 82. I was unemployment, and we barely made it. 381 00:27:51.970 --> 00:27:55.589 Then, nearing the end of the year, Jana's younger brother died. 382 00:27:56.670 --> 00:27:57.670 She had to return home. 383 00:28:00.250 --> 00:28:05.130 Everybody thought it took such a courage of me to 384 00:28:05.829 --> 00:28:13.480 establish a life in Canada and I felt defeated. 385 00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:20.660 Jana returned to her family in Denmark, unable to tell 386 00:28:20.680 --> 00:28:23.200 them why. It was overwhelming. 387 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:31.569 A mixture of a lot of things. Maybe I even 388 00:28:31.650 --> 00:28:37.029 had their dream about Canada in my thoughts. And they 389 00:28:37.109 --> 00:28:39.990 pushed me in the sense, we'll take care of Sita. 390 00:28:40.809 --> 00:28:47.650 And because my parents were just so enthusiastic about Canada 391 00:28:47.730 --> 00:28:49.380 and the Canadian way. 392 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.339 But her Canadian dream was now dead. 393 00:28:55.259 --> 00:29:01.980 And I got killed it. First, because of the rape. Secondly, 394 00:29:02.220 --> 00:29:07.500 because he was instrumental, I'm sure. I never saw him 395 00:29:07.900 --> 00:29:10.740 that day. I was fired without notice. 396 00:29:13.809 --> 00:29:17.730 Through his lawyer, Nygaard says he categorically denies Jana's allegations, 397 00:29:18.349 --> 00:29:25.349 saying they are, quote, completely false. Jana rebuilt her life 398 00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:29.150 in Denmark, met her husband, and continued to devote herself 399 00:29:29.190 --> 00:29:34.180 to her daughter. She moved on,

or tried to, doing 400 00:29:34.220 --> 00:29:36.779 her best to leave the rape and her Canadian nightmare 401 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:40.529 in the past. And for a while, she thought they 402 00:29:40.569 --> 00:29:45.250 might stay there. Until 14 years after leaving Winnipeg, Yana 403 00:29:45.369 --> 00:29:47.990 got a call from a reporter with the Free Press. 404 00:29:56.329 --> 00:29:59.609 Early morning on a Manhattan sidewalk, a shooting caught on 405 00:29:59.630 --> 00:30:00.309 surveillance video. 406 00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:04.809 It was an assassination-style killing, and everybody saw it. 407 00:30:05.069 --> 00:30:08.269 Now, as Luigi Mangione prepares to stand trial for the 408 00:30:08.309 --> 00:30:12.769 murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, which he denies, a 409 00:30:12.829 --> 00:30:17.190 new podcast series from ABC Audio in 2020 goes inside 410 00:30:17.210 --> 00:30:22.150 this captivating case. I'm ABC News legal analyst Brian Buckmeyer. 411 00:30:22.730 --> 00:30:26.619 Listen to Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione, wherever you get 412 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:27.279 your podcasts. 413 00:30:29.349 --> 00:30:31.779 Yeah, we know what you're thinking. How good can a 414 00:30:31.819 --> 00:30:34.599 coffee from Mackey's be? Well, when it's made with a 415 00:30:34.660 --> 00:30:37.500 new lighter roast at a great price, that means you 416 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:40.000 can enjoy it every day. And with a cheeky hash 417 00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:43.369 brown when you feel like it, turns out pretty good. 418 00:30:44.869 --> 00:30:47.250 Subject to availability. Hash brown served until 11 a.m. Lighter 419 00:30:47.269 --> 00:30:50.509 roast available from 8th of September, 2026. 420 00:30:53.130 --> 00:30:55.950 Jana Larson was one name that I was given because 421 00:30:56.529 --> 00:30:59.269 at the time she was in Denmark so I managed 422 00:30:59.289 --> 00:31:01.390 to reach her and interview her over the phone. 423 00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:06.859 Catherine Mitchell knew her story needed to be told. 424 00:31:09.259 --> 00:31:11.119 It was heartbreaking because. 425 00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:17.700 Very credible woman but had continued to work there because 426 00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:21.589 she was a single mother at the time and her 427 00:31:21.650 --> 00:31:24.069 story had many of the echoes of the stories that 428 00:31:24.089 --> 00:31:27.509 we're still hearing that Hurt by somebody in a position 429 00:31:27.529 --> 00:31:31.019 of power, not knowing who I could turn to, who 430 00:31:31.059 --> 00:31:31.940 would believe me. 431 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.579 Including Yana's story, Catherine was preparing more coverage of Nygaard's 432 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:38.640 sexual misconduct. 433 00:31:40.180 --> 00:31:43.569 So I just gathered, as I said, interviewing a number 434 00:31:43.589 --> 00:31:47.369 of other women, just gathered more evidence, backing up the 435 00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:47.950 women's claims. 436

00:31:50.130 --> 00:31:52.779 Until the journalists were told, stop. 437 00:31:57.029 --> 00:31:59.819 It was made clear that we weren't going to continue 438 00:31:59.859 --> 00:32:00.400 with the story. 439 00:32:03.640 --> 00:32:06.460 Catherine says the publisher of the Winnipeg Free Press killed 440 00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:09.460 her investigation and spiked any further stories. 441 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:14.519 When the word went out that there would be no 442 00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.240 more stories, people were upset. It's like, hey, what the 443 00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:19.049 hell's going on? 444 00:32:20.529 --> 00:32:23.609 Paul Mackay, as you'll remember, was also at the Free Press. 445 00:32:24.950 --> 00:32:25.210 Because. 446 00:32:25.990 --> 00:32:30.150 It challenges the integrity of the newsroom. They always have 447 00:32:30.210 --> 00:32:34.089 these very high-minded ideals on the masthead of the paper 448 00:32:34.170 --> 00:32:38.549 about the freedom of liberty and speech and all that. 449 00:32:39.630 --> 00:32:44.170 And to spike a story that you know has been 450 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:52.119 cleared for journalistic integrity and legal integrity, and yet you're 451 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:57.029 still spiking it. People were upset and angry about it. 452 00:32:58.589 --> 00:33:00.549 What happened with the spiking? What do you remember about that? 453 00:33:01.869 --> 00:33:04.569 Not much, just that it was clear that the spiking 454 00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:08.690 came from the office of the publisher, which was very unusual. 455 00:33:09.369 --> 00:33:13.480 But this, to my knowledge, was the first time a 456 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:19.220 story had been spiked for nefarious reasons, that some outside 457 00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:21.799 force had intervened. 458 00:33:25.410 --> 00:33:28.269 Of course, we asked the publisher at the time, Rudy Redikop, 459 00:33:28.410 --> 00:33:32.009 about this. He denies the threat of a lawsuit affected 460 00:33:32.049 --> 00:33:35.779 his decision to spike further stories. Instead, he says he 461 00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:38.410 wasn't sure whether the paper was following the right angles. 462 00:33:39.470 --> 00:33:43.799 He worried it was going to sensationalize the story. Redikop 463 00:33:43.819 --> 00:33:47.240 says Nygaard never contacted him about the coverage. He says 464 00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:52.200 the pressure came from, quote, high-positioned Winnipeggers, Nygaard compatriots, and 465 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:56.640 kingpins of the city. He told us, those people thought 466 00:33:56.660 --> 00:33:59.099 that we were on a witch hunt. I guess they 467 00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.440 didn't know how to believe that Peter was involved in 468 00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:06.519 these things. And so what did the newsroom do about it? 469 00:34:08.090 --> 00:34:11.349 There was a reporter at the time who was not 470 00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:15.949 involved in the story. And they were very upset

about 471 00:34:16.030 --> 00:34:20.150 it and started up a petition. And said, well, I 472 00:34:20.150 --> 00:34:26.909 want to present this to Rudy Reddickpop. We sat down 473 00:34:27.730 --> 00:34:33.070 saying we're here to protest the decision to spike further 474 00:34:33.090 --> 00:34:40.159 stories on the Nygaard issue. And he took the paper. 475 00:34:41.159 --> 00:34:44.039 He didn't even look at it. And he threw it 476 00:34:44.099 --> 00:34:47.159 to the side of his desk and it went straight 477 00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:52.260 into his garbage pail. And the two of us were 478 00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:55.920 just in complete shock. We knew he didn't want to 479 00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:58.699 receive the petition, but we never thought he'd do that. 480 00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:02.260 From the look on his face, he clearly saw the 481 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:06.400 looks on our face and immediately reached into the garbage 482 00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:11.239 can and pulled it out and just patted it once 483 00:35:12.409 --> 00:35:17.210 and said, I'll look at it later. And basically what 484 00:35:17.250 --> 00:35:21.010 he said essentially was, I'm not going to be the 485 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:26.949 publisher of the free press that sends hundreds of Nygaard 486 00:35:27.030 --> 00:35:31.690 jobs out of the city. And that was it. That 487 00:35:31.730 --> 00:35:32.530 was his argument. 488 00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:39.949 Retikop says he doesn't remember saying this, nor does he 489 00:35:39.989 --> 00:35:43.219 recall the meeting with Paul or receiving this petition at all. 490 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:47.480 But reflecting on his decision in 1996, he says it 491 00:35:47.500 --> 00:35:50.559 was a different time and he would do things differently today. 492 00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:53.280 It's true. 493 00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:56.440 While many employers were moving jobs offshore at the time, 494 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:01.170 Nygaard kept much of his operations in Canada. In the 90s, 495 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.139 he employed more than 1,000 people in his Winnipeg factories, 496 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.260 retail stores, and offices. In a letter to the editor, 497 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:11.239 published by the Free Press at the time, Nygaard's late 498 00:36:11.300 --> 00:36:15.960 sister warned, quote, your quest for sensationalism may well have 499 00:36:15.980 --> 00:36:19.420 a severe impact on the 1,200 employees who depend on 500 00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:29.730 Nygaard International for their paychecks. The jobs and prestige that 501 00:36:29.789 --> 00:36:32.889 Nygaard and his company brought to the Prairie City became 502 00:36:32.909 --> 00:36:37.780 a sort of camouflage. In 1981, a year after Iona 503 00:36:37.820 --> 00:36:40.719 says she was raped, the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce gave 504 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:45.880 Nygaard an Award for Canadian Distinction. And in 1985, he 505 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.960 was given the Winnipeg Community Service Award. It all raises 506 00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.840 the question, was Nygaard too valuable to Winnipeg to be outed? 507 00:36:55.179 --> 00:36:57.769 It seems Peter Nygaard had enough influence at the top 508 00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:00.980 that those around him were willing to defend and look 509 00:37:01.039 --> 00:37:04.730 beyond his vicious behavior, with little regard for the women 510 00:37:04.909 --> 00:37:05.530 he abused. 511 00:37:09.710 --> 00:37:13.889 Peter Nygaard definitely has power, and he definitely has money, 512 00:37:13.969 --> 00:37:17.309 and he has a reputation. That would make it difficult 513 00:37:17.369 --> 00:37:21.860 to pursue a rape charge. You would certainly think twice, 514 00:37:22.489 --> 00:37:25.179 three times, four times, before you would say anything. 515 00:37:26.920 --> 00:37:27.500 You just wouldn't. 516 00:37:34.099 --> 00:37:37.860 Jana certainly deserved to have her story told, and it wasn't. And, 517 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:39.059 I mean, that's regrettable. 518 00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:41.360 It's all very regrettable. 519 00:37:43.739 --> 00:37:46.309 Catherine still has the transcript of her interview with Jana 520 00:37:46.329 --> 00:37:50.389 from the 1990s. And while it was never published, Jana's 521 00:37:50.570 --> 00:37:54.510 identical retelling, decades later, strengthens her case today. 522 00:37:57.090 --> 00:38:02.030 She has just stayed true to her story. She's very credible. 523 00:38:02.809 --> 00:38:05.630 And so again, just really admire her courage. 524 00:38:08.269 --> 00:38:10.860 Catherine hopes something good will come from Yana telling her 525 00:38:10.889 --> 00:38:13.340 story again, now publicly. 526 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:20.860 One sort of common element for those who have been 527 00:38:20.900 --> 00:38:26.639 sexually harassed, those who have been sexually abused, is that self-doubt. 528 00:38:27.909 --> 00:38:31.289 general recrimination nobody's going to believe me you know that 529 00:38:31.349 --> 00:38:35.550 kind of thing and so it's really important to get 530 00:38:35.590 --> 00:38:39.099 these stories out not just as sort of a as 531 00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:44.900 a warning to other women but also to alleviate if 532 00:38:44.960 --> 00:38:50.579 not eliminate the stigma that's attached to this and maybe change. 533 00:38:50.300 --> 00:38:56.760 Behavior There had been rumors for years that the Winnipeg 534 00:38:56.780 --> 00:39:00.250 Free Press' reporting on Peter Nygaard had somehow been halted 535 00:39:00.269 --> 00:39:04.230 in the 90s. But pressure faced by journalists to kill 536 00:39:04.389 --> 00:39:07.750 or change stories is usually subtle and hard to pin down. 537 00:39:08.630 --> 00:39:12.349 And because of that, it stays hidden. I honestly thought 538 00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:14.340 we would never know the truth about what happened at 539 00:39:14.380 --> 00:39:18.260 the Winnipeg Free Press in 1996. But now we do, 540

00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:25.679 and there was nothing subtle about it. While Jana never 541 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:30.380 reported her assault to authorities, she hasn't kept quiet. She 542 00:39:30.409 --> 00:39:33.460 told Nygaard executives at the time of her rape, only 543 00:39:33.500 --> 00:39:35.800 to have employees come to her home with a cheque. 544 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:40.039 More than a decade later, she told a reporter, only 545 00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:43.780 to have her story buried. Over the years, she spoke 546 00:39:43.820 --> 00:39:46.420 to other journalists to try to get her story out there. 547 00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:49.909 And today, Jana is telling us. 548 00:39:49.929 --> 00:39:59.489 It still affects me. Making me dirty somehow. Making me 549 00:39:59.619 --> 00:40:03.539 feel that I should have done something. But I don't 550 00:40:03.579 --> 00:40:09.159 know what. I don't get anything out of telling my 551 00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:16.550 story except maybe a bit more peace inside. It's difficult 552 00:40:16.929 --> 00:40:23.030 to tell, but I asked for some peace. I asked 553 00:40:23.070 --> 00:40:27.210 myself for some peace after all those years. 554 00:40:32.989 --> 00:40:35.760 I'd waited a decade to meet Jana, to hear her 555 00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:39.380 story from her. I had learned about her assault at 556 00:40:39.420 --> 00:40:43.739 the start of my investigation into Nygaard back in 2009. 557 00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:45.820 I'd done everything I could to try to speak to her, 558 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:49.110 but she said she didn't want to talk. not after 559 00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:51.139 what had happened to her with the Winnipeg Free Press. 560 00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:54.320 At the time, I had no idea how much she'd 561 00:40:54.340 --> 00:40:58.019 been through. But soon I'd be facing what the Free 562 00:40:58.059 --> 00:41:02.440 Press did in 1996, pressure to stay silent, to end 563 00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:06.090 our investigation. But this time it would go much further 564 00:41:06.130 --> 00:41:08.789 than phone calls from powerful friends and the threat of 565 00:41:08.849 --> 00:41:13.110 a lawsuit. I'd be facing up to five years in prison. 566 00:41:16.389 --> 00:41:21.880 Coming up on Evil by Design. I'm calling about the 567 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:28.360 issue of potential prosecution for defamatory libel under the criminal code. 568 00:41:30.019 --> 00:41:30.800 What was I going to do? 569 00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.760 Just turn a blind eye and carry on and just 570 00:41:35.380 --> 00:41:38.320 let him abuse and victimize people? 571 00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:43.000 When I first was hired, Nygaard told me that the 572 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:44.300 reason why Jesus. 573 00:41:44.019 --> 00:41:46.199 Is so popular is because he had a good PR team. 574 00:41:46.539 --> 00:41:47.880 So he wanted everything filmed. 575 00:41:48.920 --> 00:41:49.619 We received. 576 00:41:50.300 --> 00:41:55.159 summonses informing us that we were being criminally charged under 577 00:41:55.179 --> 00:41:56.460 the Criminal Code of Canada. 578 00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:02.099 If anything you've heard in this episode has left you 579 00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:07.300 looking for someone to talk to, please visit cbc.ca slash uncover. 580 00:42:08.139 --> 00:42:10.079 We have a number of resources there for those in 581 00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:13.860 need of help and support. Evil by Design is a 582 00:42:13.889 --> 00:42:18.070 co-production between CBC Podcasts and The Fifth Estate. You can 583 00:42:18.130 --> 00:42:22.090 find The Fifth Estate's latest documentary Peter Nygaard, The Secret Videos, 584 00:42:22.449 --> 00:42:26.599 on YouTube. This podcast is written by producer Ashley Mack, 585 00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:31.860 associate producer Alina Ghosh, and me, Timothy Sawa, with assistance 586 00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:35.239 from Lynette Fortune at The Fifth Estate. Mixing and sound 587 00:42:35.260 --> 00:42:39.119 design by Evan Kelly, with technical assistance from Laura Antonelli. 588 00:42:39.860 --> 00:42:43.360 For this episode, special thanks goes to Kimberly Ivany, Linda Guerrero, 589 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.869 Lisa Mayer, and Bob McEwen. Emily Canal is our digital producer. 590 00:42:48.590 --> 00:42:53.360 Fact-checking by Emily Mathieu, Legal advice from Sean Moorman. Original 591 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:57.619 music by Olivia Pasquarelli. Our senior producer at CBC Podcasts 592 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:01.280 is Chris Oak. And our executive producer is Arif Noorani. 593 00:43:10.769 --> 00:43:15.590 For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.