บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Self Mastery Through Healing: With Grace Brown

Windle: I hated school from like the moment I walked. It just wasn't for me. It just is never. Grace Brown: Which is which a lot of kids it's not. Ben Windle: No, no, and they diagnosed me with all this stuff. They're like, Yeah, he has dyslexia, he has ADHD, he has this, and I was just like I don't know what the fuck any of this is. And I I don't really care. Yeah. Grace Brown: I just don't wanna sit in a classroom all day. I it's so cra so crazy as a therapist, I actually used to work with a lot of kids And a lot of ADHD kids, and that's so unfortunate because a traditional classroom is not set up for the ADHD brain, and there is nothing wrong with being ADHD. Like we diagnose it as if it's something bad. It's just a different way of learning that is not so it's we gave it a label because it's not conducive to a traditional style of classroom. It's the only reason it has a label because kids can't focus in a traditional style of classroom, but it's like you put these kids in things they're interested in and they can hyper focus on these things. Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Grace Brown: Hyper focus. So it's like these kids don't lack focus. They just don't do well in a traditional style of classroom. So it's just sad the way that Ben Windle: Agree. Grace Brown: set it it's set up for a lot of kids to inevitably struggle, which then has self esteem issues. It's it's a whole thing. Ben Windle: yeah, yeah. It was like I was doing so badly in the classroom and then I would I would just project all of my anger outside, getting in a lot of fights. Well I grew up in El Paso, so I was like the only white kid there. And Grace Brown: Yeah. Ben Windle: there was a lot of Mexican kids coming over from Juarez, which is a really dangerous city. So Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: that was my childhood, yeah, just getting beat up by a lot of Mexicans and and stuff like that. But Orale, you know. Yeah, good time. Grace Brown: Yeah. I've l the therapist in me is like, man, how d there's something Ben Windle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I d yeah, th especially this year. I blew I not blue. I spent a lot of money on therapist. She was she was great, which Grace Brown: What kind of what kind of therapy? Ben Windle: this woman I spent a lot of time looking because I had had a couple of experiences in the past and I was just like this is I'm literally just talking to somebody and this is pretty Grace Brown: Solo Ben Windle: pretty useless. I'm sure you have your own opinion on that, which I'll ask you in a bit. Grace Brown: Yeah. Ben Windle: But I did a ton of research and You may or may not know. I used to own a gym and it w I trained a lot of incredibly successful people. So I had super, super incredible connections. Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: And I started asking them a little bit and then ultimately found this woman named Constance. I should know her full name. I mean, Jesus, we spent a lot of time together, but Grace Brown: Ha ha Ben Windle: she was fantastic. She for she's probably in her early 60s, but she had Grace Brown: Cool. Ben Windle: like this bright red hair and she was super crazy. And She spent 20 years of her career being a life coach for businesses. And then she was like, there's people need a lot more than this. And then she Grace Brown: Sorry. Ben Windle: just went back to school, got her you know, whatever credential she needed to get, to get licensed, and opened up her own practice. And then I found out about her. Then it turns out she's one of the best in in Florida in the region. And we had Grace Brown: Nice. Ben Windle: we had I had an amazing experience with her, and then like maybe This June or July, she's like, I'm gonna be totally real with you. if you wanna keep coming to me, great. But I think you know, I think you're good to go. And if you need to just do, you know, a checkup every couple of months, like I'm cool with that, but I think you're good to go for now. And so that was that was pretty cool. It's really cool that she does that too, instead of just trying to keep me around forever. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Got Yeah. Yeah, you're meant to graduate therapy. You're not meant to stay in it I unless you have like really deep trauma where you have to keep on processing it. But yeah, you're you're trained to graduate clients. Not everybody does that, but you're trained to do it. Ben Windle: Uh-huh. And then what were the specific type of clients you were working with when you first started? Grace Brown: So I'm a marriage and family therapist, so I'm trained in relational therapy, which basically means Ben Windle: nice. Grace Brown: family work, couples work, kid parent work. so I was doing a lot of family stuff, working with kids, working with couples. Couples, in my opinion, are the most for my brain is the most stimulating experience. And it's the most rewarding also. couples are so fascinating, so interesting, but also it's just very rewarding work. So, yeah, my training is I'm an L F T, so a licensed marriage and family therapist and I'm also trained in emotion focused therapy, which is a model of couples model of therapy. A lot of people know about Gottman. I don't know if you're familiar with Gottman therapy, ever had of ever heard of Gottman therapy, but when people think of couples work, everybody's like, you do Gottman? I'm like, No. I do EFT and it is better. Period That's okay. I I Ben Windle: Yeah. No, I don't know what that is. you Grace Brown: I was curious what do you know what your therapist was trained in? Like what model of therapy she practiced? Ben Windle: Mm. She did she Grace Brown: It's okay. It's okay if you don't. Ben Windle: she started off with couples. And she specializes in couples. Grace Brown: she did. Ooh Ooh I wonder if she's I wonder what type Ben Windle: I don't know. Sh that that fucking woman is locked in though. She would Grace Brown: Ben, you will have to look her up after this and send me her psychology today profile or her profile so I can look at her

c stuff. Because if she Ben Windle: Okay. Grace Brown: Ben, it would be so crazy if she is trained in EFT. Ben Windle: Yeah. Is that also the EFT tapping stuff too? Got it. Got it. That's why we do these things, right? It's why we Yeah. Grace Brown: No, it's completely different. Completely different. Yes, it is. Yes. Ben Windle: Okay. so you would say your relationship currently is pretty healthy. Grace Brown: Yes. And I think you know, it's I love talking about this stuff because I'm like, how do you people define healthy in relationships? The way that people see healthy on social media to me is bullshit. but yeah, it is. Like it's the healthiest relationship I've ever been in. comp yes. Ben Windle: How did you guys meet? Grace Brown: Online. We met on a a dating app. Yes. Yeah. Ben Windle: Yeah. on a dating profile or Really? my gosh. I haven't had one of those in four years. Praise God. Grace Brown: So it's crazy because my past two relationships I also met on a dating app, but those they ended exactly as they should. They ended, but they were not they were not people I should have been with probably. so I always say to my current boyfriend Daniel, I'm like, It's so crazy that we met because this is cr like I just always I'm like, this is so crazy, like what are the odds that I actually would meet the person that I want to spend my life with on this app. But it it happened. Ben Windle: Yeah. And how how long has it been? Grace Brown: Six months. So we're we're newer, but I Ben Windle: Wow. Yeah. Grace Brown: think it's one of those things I know everybody says it, it's so cheesy. It's like when you know you would but Ben Windle: yeah. Grace Brown: I just have a lot to compare off of based off of my past relationship. So I really felt like I I know what I want at this point in my life. And he has everything that I could want in a partner and he just yeah. So I'm like, I'm locked in. Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. And what what kind of work did you do after your last relationships that you think that put you in a position to be in a healthy one now? Grace Brown: Yeah, I think so I'll give you some context 'cause I think this is important. I like early on, I mean high school, college, I was very attracted to people that I thought needed help. That needed some some emotional healing and I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna help you and I'm gonna heal you and then you're gonna love me. turns out it's not how it works, right? Ben Windle: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Grace Brown: So I was with some people who were cheaters, and when I r reflect back on it and I really look back at it, I'm like, I was attracted to a certain type of person that brought up something in me that I felt like I could help them. I was like, I'm gonna help you heal your childhood wounds and I'm gonna make you a better person and I'm I'm gonna love you so much that you never do anything to hurt me. That's not how it works, right? but I was attracting that type of person. And in the process I realized,

okay, I'm not gonna blame myself for being with people, like I'm not gonna blame myself for the cheating, but I am gonna take responsibility for the type of person that I was allowing myself to be in a relationship with and also what I thought was my responsibility, my role that I could somehow save them. Again, that's just not how love works. People will change when they wanna change, and it's not my responsibility to do that. so I had to be very aware of what I was trying to do in past relationships with people and that there was a wounding in me around that I thought I could only be loved if I was providing value to people in that way. So if I'm providing you value by trying to help you and fix you, then why wouldn't you love me, right? Like why wouldn't you want to stick around? Again, it's not how love works, but I I was shown that. So one, it was kind of waking up to that I'm attracting and I'm going after a certain type of person that is not somebody that they match this wounding I have, but they're not somebody that I actually want to be with. they're they have their own shit to work through. And I'm not blaming them for that. It's not like, they're a terrible person, like yada. It was just that's the that's their thing. And it's not my responsibility to try to fix it. And I'm not to blame for it also. So I worked through that and you know the other thing that I think I talk about this too is like your dating wounds or stuff that's gonna come out for you in relationships is only gonna really fully come forward when you're in relationship with people, which is why you need to be dating also in order to bring up these things to have awareness and to work through. And so while there were periods of time where I wasn't dating, I also knew I'm gonna be very happy, content, and single thinking I've done all the healing until I start dating again. And that's what brings up the shit. And so for people to recognize like And I will say it, I'm always curious when I talk to men about this because I think men actually get the hard end of the stick when it comes to dating in the sense of men, you have to have it all together. You need to be the full package. You gotta be X, Y, and Z. You need to look a certain type of way. You can't be la la la. And women actually don't get as much don't get as held responsible or accountable for some of the work that they also need to do, right? And I'm actually Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Feel right. Grace Brown: really passionate about that because when I work with couples or even when I've worked with men in the therapy setting, to me I'm like, damn, this would suck if it i men were always made the bad guy when women also have things to work through and again it's not to blame to say either party is bad blah blah blah it's just to say hey if we're gonna hold men accountable we also need to hold women accountable to work through their stuff and know how that is coming into a relationship and impacting their partner and also what is normal and healthy in a relationship too. Ben Windle: Yeah, I want to come back to what you said earlier about I'll use myself as an example. it Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: had been, I just I would so I had went through this super crazy relationship. I got cheated Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: on, lost all my money, had to move across the country. It was crazy. And then Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: instead of in my mind, I was just like, I have to get my life together immediately. And then that's so I literally had all of this trauma. And I was just like, I'm gonna put this back here and then we're just gonna Grace Brown: Hm. Ben Windle: we're just gonna wrap it up for now. And I used all of that pain and suffering to just work like 16 hours a day for years and years and years because I couldn't sit with myself because then it would come up. So I just stayed super busy, super busy, super busy. And then earlier this year, I found myself in a relationship, and because of how life because of my life was going so well and all the tangibles. financially and career-wise and social media, whatever, everything that I had ever wanted individually as a man was going so well. So I thought, Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: yeah, I'm ready to fucking rock and roll. This is gonna be a breeze. I get into that relationship, and then all of that shit that I had been holding and had pent up just slapped me in the face so hard, and then it just like completely Grace Brown: Yeah. Ben Windle: collapsed in an instant. And that's when I was just like, you know what? I'm literally Gonna just sit with this. I'm gonna process this and I'm gonna hire a therapist. I'm gonna get the best one I can possibly find. I will bow blow infinite amounts of money that I need to. And gratefully I did it. And you know, so far it's you know, quote unquote worked. I haven't been in another, you know, another relationship yet. I dated a little bit, so on and so forth. But Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: a lot of people don't understand, but what like you were saying, a lot of people don't understand is the real work starts, not when necessarily you're single. There is a lot of things that you need to do and can do. Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: But once you get into that next relationship, that's when you're like, shit, now it's now it's time to implement and there's more work that actually needs to be done. Grace Brown: Totally. And the other thing Ben is like bringing it up is like It's n I think a lot of people think, women especially think that if they're triggered in a relationship, the man is doing something wrong. And I don't know if men experience it that way too, but I always tell people you're going to be triggered. If you have had shitty relationships in the past, relationships that you've been hurt, you got childhood shit, that all of that floods in when you are in an intimate relationship with another person and you will be triggered. And Ben Windle:

Mm. Grace Brown: the other person is also going to be triggered by your. Stuff and so it's recognizing and understanding that us being triggered in intimate relationships isn't bad. That's part of the work. Is I'm going my nervous system is going to be activated and protect me or think something is off in certain situations. And of course, like you get into the caveat of like, okay, what actually is a toxic relationship? But I will tell you that I think a lot of people, women, especially sorry, women, I love you guys, I'm a woman, but like women will call things toxic that that are not. Toxic. That that's like, he he just didn't do one thing, and I'm like, girl, we ain't looking at the whole picture here. Ben Windle: Yeah. Yeah, girls seems that they get icked out by a lot of things. I feel like if you sneeze incorrectly these days, they're like, Yeah, we're gonna wrap this shit up, player and you're like Yeah. Yeah. Grace Brown: Which is crazy. Which is so crazy. Cause aga and again it's like one of those things I'm like I kind of I get where maybe it's rooted in of like, okay, you know, men have some work to do, but it's it but it's also just like both women and men have work to do and it's sad because typically and this is a whole other conversation, but like In a general heterosexual relationship with a man and woman, women tend to have sp different needs than men. And not all. Like sometimes it switches of like sometimes men have needs that maybe are less stereotypical, but we can say, because he has these certain needs or his needs are different than mine, that means his needs aren't good or I don't really care 'cause his needs are different than mine. women will be like, I really want him to help me out around the house and I want him to do all these things for me. And then if a man has different needs, she's like, he shouldn't want anything from me. Like he should just cater to me and do all these things for me. And I'm like, What? W this isn't a our relationship is two. We. We I was in a training the other day and the trainer said we is more important than simply I. In a relationship, we is more important than simply I. And I think a lot of times we will prioritize me, the individual, in a relationship over the relationship, and I think that's when things start to go to shit. But there's so many things I could talk about within that. It is. Mm. Yeah, I think like you said, women, like the icking out, the I think it's like almost there's a part of women from what I see that that is like we're dehuman humanitizing men in some way to be like you should just be perfect, like you shouldn't have needs, you shouldn't have you shouldn't do anything weird. You should like really like held to such a high standard that is impossible to meet every time. And it's not to say that you shouldn't have high standards for a partner, but it's like men are human beings. And I think and again I'm be curious your opinion on of of this of like this is just what

I see from my experience as a woman but also when I'm working with people. And I'd be curious your experience around that. But yeah, there's almost like a dehuman, like they're not making it like that you guys aren't human and aren't gonna have a lived human experience and have your own shit that you bring to the table. And again, have high standards for a partner, but also recognize that like men are human beings too, and they have needs and they do have emotions. And a lot of women want men to be emotional and vulnerable, but in a certain way, and you have to do it perfectly, and you can't do it when it's only convenient. And all of these, and I'm like, we got this really twisted, and you guys aren't gonna get what you want if there's always a standard of it being a certain way. So I think women really need to recognize what you want from a partner, what you say you want is not what you allow a lot of times. What you say you want from a man is not what you allow from him in the dating experience. You think, if he does any of this wrong, then I'm not gonna give him a chance. And it's like, whoa, buddy, buddy, we gotta. We gotta unpack that a little bit. For men and I this is again where I'd be curious of your experience, but I think that men is being able to like mm n call that out, not in a way of like that it's abrasive, but call women out for that. When you see it, 'cause women also need to know and I think a lot of times men think, I can't call women out for that because there's so many things, maybe societally, that we do wrong to women. I get it, but also it's like you can call that out when dating or in relationship with someone in a way that's respectful. It can like, hey, this isn't really adding up. Like can you see how Ben Windle: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. My last, I would say my last relationship, you know, I'm not talking shit about anyone or anything of that nature, like at all. But it was definitely, and I've noticed this a couple of times. And I'm, you know, my one of my biggest issues that I'm, you know, still working through is I really want to be super bulletproof for my partner, not show any emotion, anything like that. Grace Brown: when you expect this of me, it's kinda unrealistic or just being able to have a conversation about it almost instead of just being like, well, this is just how it is. This is just dating. we have to get it all right, because I just don't think that's fair. And I think that keeps Ben Windle: And it was the second that I did with hey, I'm struggling, I got cheated on the in the past, and this is what I'm working through. As soon as I brought that up, it Grace Brown: It separates men and women in some ways. Ben Windle: just boom got ended. It was just yeah, actually this and that, and then we're just gonna wrap this up. And I was like, okay. But I see that with a lot of a lot of guys, Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: and I think that's why they're scared to be, have a lot of emotions with women. but obviously

that's that's partner choice, and they gotta they gotta have their own. triggers and stuff healed too, but that's yeah. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm. Hmm. Ben Windle: So I'll give you I'll give you two answers. In the moment, I was like, damn, this sucks. And then there was a brief period where I had like we're talking about maybe less than a day. Where I was just like, I am never gonna fucking cry in front of a girl. I'm never doing this. I'm never gonna do that. And I like, you know what? This person just isn't the right person. And like the right woman is gonna sit and be like, this motherfucker's got some shit that he's that he's working through. I'll Grace Brown: Totally. Can I ask you like how that impacted you in the moment? Because to me I hear that and I'm like, wow, that was really honorable for you to bring that forward to her and I mean it's sad that that's how she responded. Again, at the end of the day, she wasn't your person if she can't op be like be there for you. But I am curious, again, as a man, like how does that impact you in the moment and what does it make you want to do, not want to do, think Ben Windle: I'll just give it some time, not even necessarily space or a break or anything like that, but I'll talk through it with him, figure out what's going on, figure out how I can give him some reassurance, some support, stuff like that. So in the moment it was I w I like my mind wanted to go back to like super hyper masculine work so you know, back to that pattern. But because of a lot, you know, a lot of the Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: work that I've done with Nick and and so on and so forth and whatever it is, I was really able to gratefully come back like super quickly and be like, you know what? This just, I even though net what happened necessarily Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: isn't my fault and maybe I didn't think it was fair, it is still my responsibility to just like accept what went right or wrong and then move on from it. But yeah, it obviously sucked, but you know, there's there's there's a lot of different variables. Like the reality is we we we just weren't right for each other. And I I know the person Grace Brown: Yeah, yeah. Ben Windle: who I'll be with in the future, whatever it is, will just be like, Let's just figure this out, let's talk it through and and move on from there. But Right. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Totally. Right. Totally, totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that brings up like what I was talking about is like women say they want a man who is vulnerable, who is open, who is honest, who is emotional, until he actually actually brings that forward to them and then they're like, Wait, I don't know what to do with this And I think that's really sad because in a strong, healthy relationship, men need to be able to bring it And it again, it can be different. men and women tend to process things a little bit differently. Again, heterosexual relationships, but that is not to say that there still shouldn't be space for your stuff to come up. And in in your future relationship, like you need to be able to talk about those things. Like that is you bringing forward your vulnerability is ultimately what strengthens strengthens the relationship, strengthens the emotional bond in the relationship. I mean, there's so many deeper layers to that, but again, it's like it's sad to me because women say they w say they want this. And then the second it comes up, they're like, actually, maybe I don't. And it's so unfair because roles reversed, women expect that out of men in a lot of ways, meant to be the provider, meant to be the protector, meant to be, you need to be there for her when she is emotional. It's like, hey, but the second it flips, you guys are not. Where are you providing to him? Where are you supporting him? Right? And that's sad to me because again, it's it is two-way street. Women need to step up to the plate in a lot of ways for men. And I think. Ben Windle: That was that was bars, dude. That was good. Yeah. so obviously there's like and I'm not defending it or or advocating for it, but like you know, obviously the Tate brothers, Andrew Tate and his brother and and all of that group of guys got super popular because of that specific reason. Because a lot of dudes that I know that I talk to myself, they've gone through, you Grace Brown: that it's like the healthy masculine allows Ben Windle: know, they bring up the second they show that little bit of weakness, like the Chick just dumps them, gets back on a dating app. A lot, girls, especially, even if they're moderately attractive, have so many options now, beyond Grace Brown: for your vulnerability. Like it allows that to come forward. So yeah. Vars. Ben Windle: insane with Instagram, with hinge, with the all the the bumbles, the t whatever is even out there these days. and I think they're really quick to just be like, yeah, fuck this. This I'm not gonna deal with it. And that's why, like, I don't defend it, and I'm not advocate advocating towards it, obviously, but like I Grace Brown: Right. Ben Windle: understand. why so many vulnerable young Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: men gravitated towards the, fuck bitches. I'm just gonna make money. I'm fucking, whatever it is. But that's that's how that got so popular. Right. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Totally. And I again I agree with you. I'm not advocating for it either. I'm like, ew, but I I I hear that too. And I've heard that in conversations with with men I what I was in therapy with and supervisors of like, you know, it's s they'll be like, it's sad that it becomes so divisive between women and men because men tend to then go towards, okay, who where am I gonna feel safe? Where am I gonna feel protected? Where am I gonna feel better about myself? And again, it is that in that sometimes it isn't a hyper masculine group of people because women and men and women aren't able to come together and have open conversations like this of

like, hey, I just want to hear your your perspective. Your even if I disagree with you or even if it triggers me in some way, like I Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, for sure. and when you're when you're when you're working with somebody, it I mean, my my bad, you know, my bad therapy Grace Brown: I wanna be open to having a conversation so that we can come together because aga I the a world that is healthier than it is now needs people to be able to have open conversations like that. Men and women to be able to have open conversations of like, hey, why do you protect yourself in the way you you do? Or why do you do you know, X, Y, Ben Windle: experiences in the past were essentially I would say I just I never got clear direction in the past. They would just listen and be like, that sucks. You know, tell me more about that. And I'm like, motherfucker, I just did. You know, do gonna are you gonna try to put me in a horrors horizontal line to get better? Or am I just fucking here to bitch and complain? Grace Brown: and Z? I like I get it. The men start to go that way because w women tend to push that. Ben Windle: But where where do you draw the line between listening and integration? If that makes any sense. Both. Whatever you do specifically. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. In therapy or coaching? it's similar. Yeah, I think I I'm this is where it's like helpful as a coach or a therapist to know your client because there are some clients who when they first come in just need to be validated in their experience and that's part of the healing is initially you just want to be heard by me, you want to be seen by me, you want to be understood, and then I can start to as a therapist, as a coach, I can start to gauge, okay, my client is ready to be challenged. I can also, you know, open that up in the conversation. But most people, therapy or coaching are coming in because they want to grow in some way. I would say coaching is a little bit more future growth oriented than therapy, but not all like both can be. It just depends on who you are as a client, what you're wanting to get out of it, having that conversation with a therapist or coach. And so, yeah, it's like in the beginning there might be people who just need to be validated in their experience of like, yeah, I do just want because I've never talked to somebody about this before. I felt so alone in this. I've thought I was messed up, something's wrong with me. And so some people just need to be, hey, there's nothing wrong with you. Like that was a fucked up situation. Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Grace Brown: It makes sense why you reacted in the way you did, felt the way that you did, felt so alone in this experience, thought something was wrong with you. Like sometimes people just do need to be seen in that. And then sometimes people are like, I've already done that work. I want to figure out how I can actually move past this and start healing. And that's when you start challenging people. And if it's trauma, obviously that's a deeper layer of work. If it's just like smaller traumas or smaller experiences in life, then Ben Windle: Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's I mean, obviously I'm not a therapist or whatever, but what worked for me as as a client was I mean, I was ready, I wanted to kind of skip that that part. And I had all of these things written down. And I told her, I said, this is where I'm at right now, and this is where I want to be, and I want to hire you to get to where I want to be. And Grace Brown: That can happen a little bit quicker, but I think as a coach and therapist, you need to know your client. You need to know what your client is coming in to get. You need to have that conversation from the jump. And then you need to say, Hey, are you ready? Are you open to being being challenged now and like doing this work on a deeper level to really, to really start just not reflecting on it, but moving through it and past it. Ben Windle: If you can give me that horizontal horizontal line to this point, great. If not, let's just wrap this shit up, call it a day. And immediately she got up, started, breaking all these things down, asking me questions then. but for people who are who are struggling, in my opinion, before you before you get into the sessions, write everything Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: down and figure out exactly where you want to go and really dive deep on your own so you're not wasting your time. Grace Brown: Right, right. Ben Windle: their time to figure out exactly exactly what you need. And that worked remarkably well for me. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Love that. Mm-hmm. Totally. I absolutely agree with that. And I love like it's one of those things like clients who bring f like you bringing forward like hey, this is my experience, this is what I've what I want to work through, this is where I wanna go, that's helpful for the therapist too, or your coach and even good therapist if there's not clear direction from a client of like, hey, do you know where you want to go? do you know where you want to feel? Then it can start to feel a little bit like wishy washy. So you coming forward and saying, hey, this is where I want to be, a good therapist would be like, all right, let's go, let's go to work. Like this is very clear. I know how to get you here. Let's start doing the sessions in a way that's structured to get to you to where you want to be. But I mean that just even brings up the the reality that as a client you coming into sessions, whether it's coaching or therapy with an intention of Ben Windle: Yeah, yeah, that definitely worked best for me. I had and it was tough it was really, really tough to finally like be like, man, do I really need this? Do I want this? Cause I, you know, it essentially kind of gave you a quick background in my childhood. Like Grace Brown: not just like come in and be like, Yeah, like the th a good therapist will be like, Hey, let's I don't care about your day anymore. Like let's

actually get into the work. Like a good therapist will, but I do think obviously as a client, like bringing Ben Windle: the my group of friends are the most like they're fucking dogs. Like they're extreme like the guys that I grew up with, like there is no room for fucking Grace Brown: forward hey, I know this is the thing that I need to talk about today. I'm not gonna beat around the bush. Let's let's get into it. Ben Windle: weakness, error, or you're just gonna get roasted, which I love that. And I I'll always cherish that part of my childhood and and those friends still. I have a wedding with them in Mexico soon and stuff like that. But I'm now in a position where I'm telling them, I'm like, hey, don't fucking be like this because a lot of them are still single and they're a few years older than me. And one of them he's gonna listen to this and fucking laugh his ass off. But Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: he He had gotten, I had to miss the wedding, unfortunately, but he had gotten married to this, to this girl, and everybody loved her. I mean, she was great. Like she was, they were like super, Grace Brown: Hm. Ben Windle: we thought they were super aligned. And he found out, and Grace Brown: Yeah. Ben Windle: you're just you're you're gonna your your therapist brain's gonna go crazy for this, but he calls me two months out and he blew like $150,000 on this wedding. And two months later, and it to all of us, everything's Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: fine. And to him everything was fine too. But she he had found out that she was like Skype sexing with having she was like stripping for some guy on Skype or something like that. Yeah, we can kind of laugh about it now, but and he told me about it and he calls me. And again, our group of friends, they're like, whatever. They're like, get you know, fucking get over it, buddy, move on. There's an always another girl. And Grace Brown: Wow. Ben Windle: I was talking to him. I was just like, okay, this is some pretty serious shit, brother. You just got married and blew 150. Your net worth on this wedding. Like, what are you gonna do? He's just like, well, I'm you know, I'm getting back into the gym. I was just like, Dog. And I was like, Dog, update me. Like, I was just like, dude, fucking find a good therapist in your area and Grace Brown: boy. Ben Windle: start going immediately. And he was just like, No, that shit's gay. I said, It ain't fucking gay, bro. It's gonna be gay if you get into another relationship and you're collapsed because of your trauma from this one. So yeah, a lot of guys are super scared to get into it. Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: But he finally, I mean, he did make the decision and he reached out to me, which I was grateful for. And he's like, Yeah, this has actually been really helpful. You're the only one of our friends who suggested to do this. But yeah, man. A lot of guys, a lot of guys in particular are are very scared. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: For for me previously, before Grace Brown: Totally. Ben Windle: I was, tapped in or whatever you want to call it, it was just fear of weakness, fear of judgment, you know, stuff like that. It's again, it was just like the culture we grew up in. A lot of fighting, a lot of, you know, all the sports that I ever did. I played professional rugby, which was super fun, wrestled, did martial arts, you know, had done cage fighting and all that other stuff. So my identity is has all like previously was like, I'm super tough guy, this guy, you know, and Grace Brown: What do you think is the fear b behind it? for you when you think about it is like the fear that of how people will perceive me, that I'm not gonna be like what's Ben Windle: the backbone of my friendships of and Grace Brown: I'm not gonna be I'm not strong, what is the fear within that? Ben Windle: liter I am like literally now, especially being the only like, you know, last single ones in my family that like, you know, quote unquote makes good income, have to be the backbone of our family now. So like for a long time, not Grace Brown: Totally. Ben Windle: anymore, I was super scared to show any weakness, any vulnerability, because I could feel my family's dynamics start to diminish when I was doing poorly. So I now when I'm feeling a certain type of way, I don't go necessarily Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: through my family with those type of things. I handle it on my own. So I can continue to lead. But it is a lot of it was just a lot of fear of judgment, fear of weakness, all that all that hyper masculine stuff. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: it's I'm trying to make it not so simple, but it really is now. Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: I just don't care about that projection of of judgment anymore. Like I literally don't give a fuck at all, Grace Brown: Right. Ben Windle: which is great. But it but obviously I had to work towards that and earn that and that just came with therapy, with work and journaling and all of the shadow work and stuff like that. But Grace Brown: Yeah. How how do you make sense of it now? Like vulnerability, integrating that into who you are in your life, like work like how do you make sense of it in your brain now? Of like being Ben Windle: I don't care at all now, but obviously I had to work for that. And I know that's a simple vague answer, but that's that's it was that simple for me. And that came with posting online and all that stuff and whatever. Grace Brown: able to be vulnerable Ben Windle: that's Grace Brown: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Someone Right. Someone said to me, Is it really strong if you're afraid of your own tears? And I just was like, Yeah, is it really? Like if I'm afraid of my own tears Ben Windle: Yeah. Actually I do have just kidding. I do have a more in-depth answer for you. so I'll give you an example. So like earlier this year, went through a breakup and then somebody I was really close to three days later committed suicide, which was terrible. Then I had

to fly to Texas a bunch of times, help out the family. and then a week and a half after that had another family member pass away. So it was just like an accumulate, it was just like Grace Brown: Or if I'm afraid of somebody else seeing my tears, am I really strong? If that's my fear. And it's not to like judge somebody for that, because again, in a in a in the male society, in the culture, like that is what is you're respected more, you belong more, you're accepted more if you are shown masculine in that way. But it's like, hey, can we normalize that it's actually kinda sad if you're afraid of your own tears, right? If I Ben Windle: The universe was like you've been it was almost like the universe and God were just like, Hey man, you haven't processed anything and we're gonna use you we're gonna throw everything at you right now so that you have no choice but to literally sit. Grace Brown: Mhm. Mm. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. So Mm. Right. I think your mic just went off. I can hear you, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I can hear you now. Totally. Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: No, it's good. It's good. Grace Brown: Mm. Hm. Wow. Yeah. Right. Let it out. Yeah. Yeah. Ben Windle: Exactly. Yeah. And obviously I work with a my camera's just fucked, so we're you're just gonna have to. but a lot of guys come to me and they, you know, I'm great very grateful to be in a position where dudes reach out through social media, stuff like that, because I'm just very open about my life experiences now. And they're Grace Brown: When you were in it, was it like isolating or scary of like, is this actually gonna work? Ben Windle: like, my girlfriend cheated on me. She's such a fucking bitch, she took the kids into divorce and stuff like that. And I'm like, dude, I get it, but what the fuck did Grace Brown: Okay. Ben Windle: you do wrong? Also, it's okay, I understand this sucks, and cheating is absolutely never 100% okay Grace Brown: Right. Ben Windle: or necessary. but like also, what did you do wrong? And they're like, What? How dare you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, no, dude, like what what exactly Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: do you think you did wrong? You think you were perfect in the relationship? They're like, well, no, and then they start diving into it. And I'm like, again, dude, maybe this isn't your response, but it is it is your responsibility to figure out what you did right and wrong, and then and then move on from it. Grace Brown: Yeah. I just think even just noting like for a lot of people I think when they start going through that they're like, I feel worse doing this and it's like actually you are gonna feel worse first. You are not gonna like you were gonna feel like healing is not sunshine and rainbows, healing is nasty. and just Ben Windle: Yeah, one hundred percent. A lot of women too, surprisingly, but yeah. Grace Brown: to normalize for anybody, men, women, that there it's gonna be periods if you're really working through some shit where it is going to be nasty. Like you are not gonna be having fun at all. And that's normal. Ben Windle: Relationship stuff too. Yeah. because I I've been 'cause especially with like the stigma of like TikTok and again what we talked about earlier with like girls getting icked out super easily or whatever it is. I'll I'll have a lot of guy I always joke about like I always joke about like my height Grace Brown: Right. Yeah. Ben Windle: or whatever and people are like how how much, you know, what are your statistics? And I'm like, I'm six seven and I'm, you know f 300 pounds or whatever it is. And and then I'll be like, no guys, I'm actually five, seven, whatever it is. And then, you know, guys will reach out to me. They'll be like, man, I think Grace Brown: Maybe sh maybe she was EFT. She was like attachment focused, looking at your childhood, family system stuff. Ben Windle: I can't get girls because I'm short and this and that. I'm like, this and this is just my opinion. All right. If if you learn how if you learn to be funny and Grace Brown: Yeah. Ben Windle: you learn to be regulated and you learn how to, you know, if you do some martial arts and learn how to fight, you gain confidence through yourself as a man. It's gonna radiate off of you. And I just don't think girls really give that much of a fuck. They might on TikTok, they might on dating apps, but in person, if you have that right of if you have the right energy, Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: nobody is gonna see any of those external things. Grace Brown: Mm. Yeah. Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Grace Brown: Total. Totally. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Ben Windle: Period. Grace Brown: Totally. So in EFT therapy we call that the cycle. It's the pursuer withdrawer cycle. Typically, again, heterosexual relationships, the woman tends to be the pursuer, the man tends to be the withdrawal, just because women tend to be more anxious, men tend to be more avoidant. Again, I'm making a generalized stereotype based off of the masses. That is not all the time. Like sometimes women can be withdrawers, sometimes men can be pursuers, but there's a cycle and we externalize it so that r in relationships the couple Ben Windle: No, I agree 100%. something that helped me out a lot too is understanding that the person that you choose isn't really the honeymoon phase. It isn't the butterflies and rainbows, all of these things matter, but you're really choosing a partner that is gonna be there Grace Brown: externalizes and makes the cycle the problem instead of pointing a finger at each other because if we just keep pointing the finger at each other, it's your fault, it's your fault then nothing ever gets fixed. And so even what you're speaking about, it sounds like Ben Windle: for you when you have a miscarriage. You're gonna be there for when your partner, you know, her spouse or her dad dies of cancer. Grace Brown: Typically the woman in the relationship are the pursuer, the man withdraws, backs down or just shuts down, does not bring

forward his experience of like, Hey, actually, Ben Windle: or something like that. that is who you're choosing, really choosing to be with. You're not choosing somebody with big biceps. You're not choosing some chick with a fat ass, whatever it is. Grace Brown: when my partner keeps doing this to me, it doesn't make me feel good, but instead of like in continuing to engage, my solution is to withdraw. Ben Windle: all of those things can be fantastic, but are they going to be there for you on your worst day of your life, which is inevitable. Grace Brown: My solution is to back down. I think that fixes it. And in the short term, in the in the conflict, it does actually. Short term, long term, it doesn't. Long term, it just will perpetuate the cycle, keeps going because neither of them are actually addra addressing the deeper rooted issue that's happening within their relationship. It's just like, you didn't do the dishes. Well, I'm mad at you for not doing the dishes. And the man's like, I'm just gonna, I'm just not gonna say, you know, I'm giving an example. He's like, I'm just not gonna say anything. I'm just gonna back down and withdraw. And submit to this. but yeah, that's interesting. Mm. Ben Windle: yeah. yeah. One hundred percent. well you said you wanted to ask me Grace Brown: Ha ha ha Ben Windle: some questions. Grace Brown: Hmm. S so you overcorrected a little bit. You you were learning. That's funny. Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Grace Brown: Yeah, we are. We're trying that's c that's cool that you're gonna be the first one to hopefully break that cycle though. Yes, twice. The one early on I'm like it was high school, but it was a person that I stayed with for a very long time even after high school, so I'm counting it because of the of the pattern that I played out after he cheated on me. it does stink. Yeah, it's really but you know, when I think about it, I'm like I think I needed to get cheated on. And again, I don't s I'm not saying that in like a I I don't want I hope people don't get cheated on. I hope you don't have to experience that. But for me personally, in order to work through the things that I needed to work through, I actually think it was really necessary for me to get cheated on. because it made me do some of the deepest work I ever have done with myself and to really work on seeing my worth and value as a human being outside of how other people see me, perceive me, especially like men. Ben Windle: Yeah. yeah, we did cover a lot of the conversations, but I will say this for men specifically. You guys have to stop watching pornography 100%. I think that is such it's one of the most deteriorating things that you can do for a relationship. And it's one of the most deteriorating things that you can do for yourself as a human being because. Grace Brown: did you lose did I lose you? Okay. yeah, I can hear you. But you know what's interesting Ben Windle: There is so mu there's so much remarkable research on what on how much pornography

specifically spikes dopamine. And obviously if you overindulge in dopamine, it is the quickest way to just become depressed, to become sad. It ages your brain. It literally ages your brain and turns you into a sick motherfucker, like in a the worst way possible. Grace Brown: I even as we've ha been having this conversation, I'm like, I I I wanna hold women accountable to certain things, but I think it part in part is because I've had so many hard relationships with men. And I've I have ever I tell people I'm like, I have every reason to be a man hater because of my past experiences with men, and I'm not, and I think it's because I want to see people win together. Like I wanna see I wanna see people win together and I wanna see men win. And I know I I know why. I think because of my past experiences with men like my dad's, my brother, my relationships. I'm like, I want men to be drawn forward into these conversations so that they are allowed to also do the work because okay, I'm going down a whole different l rabbit hole, but it's but essentially what I'm saying is like I had every reason to be a man hater and I'm not because I know In part that me doing my work and then us men and women Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Grace Brown: having these conversations together is what also helps men, right, be better men in relationships and like pushing men away, hating men, being like, la la. I'm like that perpetuates the very cycle that we don't want to perpetuate. but yeah, cheating being cheated on sucks. Ben Windle: I I think it's all I think all of the above, to be honest. And I think a lot of guys will, you know, let's say their relationship is starting to to not be as spicy, as happy. You know, you're you might have a woman going, you know, through postpartum and she's just like, Yeah, my libido's fucking out the door, buddy. You know, let's we're not doing this right now. I'm raising a baby. Grace Brown: And at the same time, I would not change it. I'm glad that it happened to me because it made me like myself more as a human being because I had to do that work. And it also made me, I think, more aware of like the issues that men also deal with and also want to like advocate, fight for men to be like, hey, we need to be having these conversations together. It's not a you versus me ordeal. Ben Windle: And I think a lot of guys, instead of just being like, you know what, I'm gonna step up into a higher power and control this as much as possible and continue to be a man and lead and do all of the right things through my woman and this like crazy hormonal period of life. And they just build resentment. And again, we have such easy access to it on our phones and they just start doing that and they're like start seeing all this crazy Grace Brown: You're good. Ben Windle: stuff and thinking about all the fantasies that they maybe were implementing with their partner. at the beginning of their relationship or whatever it is, I think that builds up a ton of that's what I see happening. That builds up a ton of r resentment. And Grace Brown: Yeah. Ben Windle: again, guys, we fucking horny. that's what it is. Especially if we're healthy and have testosterone. Go on. Grace Brown: Mm. Mm, yeah. Right. Yeah. Mm. Totally. Totally. Do you think this is a little bit of a caveat but I'm just curious, do you think because of you being more open, honest and like sharing your experiences, more people tend to like reach out to you and like w lean on you for support, or men specifically? Like be be more really? With relationship stuff or just anything? Okay. Well that's cool. Yeah. Is it? Ha ha. Ben Windle: yeah, we're all t we're all ter terrified Grace Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Ben Windle: to talk about that because it is really awkward. It is super vulnerable. hey, I'm not really receiving you know, affection in this type of way. It's it's really, really it's again, it's another very vulnerable Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: thing that can cause resentment. And a lot of women will just shut it down and be like, just fucking control it. I'm just, you know, tired. I'm this and that and whatever it is. And it's just allowing your it's it's allowing your partner to not have fear. Grace Brown: Totally. I agree. I think and I think again it's like Ben Windle: to talk about this specific thing and just it's again it's again all all it comes down to probably and and you're you'll probably agree with me, it's all about just creating the space and being open and just understanding, being patient, having the conversations. If you're a man, don't get fucking frustrated and build up all of this whatever it is. And if you guys are having a ton of resentment towards each other about this specific thing and it's your weak point, then go get therapy. And if it's not working, maybe it's time to wrap that shit up. don't know. Grace Brown: Again, what a society tells a man should be, what women tell men they should be, that height is one of those things that I think is brought up a lot in those conversations. And I think that's what takes those that man's confidence down. But it's like, hey, if you can build your confidence up in other ways and recognize that hey, this actually isn't like sh again, I know I get you're getting the message from women that like it's really so important, it really matters so much. But like at the end of the day, like if you have confidence in yourself, you are a good human being, you know what you want out of this life, you're you're you show Up in a relationship, it's like someone's gonna be so lucky to have you as a partner. and for for men to own that, of like someone would be so lucky to have you as a partner if you are somebody who is so embodied in who you are and is confident in who you are and like knows your shit and wants to be a good partner and wants to work through things these things. I'm like, you need to start acting being like women would be lucky to be with me, five, seven and all. I'm like, I

don't give a shit, you know? Like, bring bring that confidence to the to the situation, and women are gonna be like, Yeah, and if if women rub you off then they're not the one for you because they don't ultimately see that again it's so superficial. Like do you want a partner who just cares about the superficial things? Like, you're gonna be old, saggy, and grey one day. Shit's gonna wear off anyways. Like, you want somebody who's gonna rock with you to the end, not someone who just likes you because of I again, I w people should be attracted to their partner, but like you know what I'm saying. Mm-hmm. Totally. Ben Windle: Mm-hmm. Grace Brown: Right. Totally. if you got a man who's six one and has n no inner inner thoughts, no inner work done, I'm like, I could give a sh I could care less about you. I don't you're not gonna be the person, like you said, who's gonna be with me if I go through something really hard if I experience a miscarriage. I'm like, I need somebody who's gonna be be able to be rock steady with me through that and again, women being open to like h getting to know men more beyond Ben Windle: No, I agree. That's actually correct. The way that you just articulated that, I've always thought about, but I've never been able to articulate myself. So I thought that was I thought that was bars for sure. but I think it really just comes down to got guys having the courage to have the correct conversation without any resentment towards it. And I think most of the Grace Brown: beyond high w whatever it is, I think is so important because you could find someone who's six five and you think he's all good and stuff and he's got n we got nothing going on in that brain or heart. Yeah. Ben Windle: time, if the relationship is in a decent place, there's probably gonna be a lot of openness and You can just ask the questions like, Hey, what am I what do you think I could do better to make you more open physically that I'm that I may not be doing emotionally for you? And I think if I think it's really that simple, but yeah. Grace Brown: Yes, well I asked you I think I asked you most most of them. I'm more so curious about men's experiences, men's experiences with women, what you see men struggling with the most and like the com I mean, think we covered a lot of it, but there's anything else, like what conversations you think men need to be having Ben Windle: Yeah. Grace Brown: more of? I actually had a I was in a training over the weekend like a therapy training, 'cause I get access to those things. It's really fun for me to just like keep learning. But again, they were just talking about how there's certain things that men don't feel they can have needs around in relationships and so they don't bring it forward and what that ends up doing is like they either like build up resentment, they feel more anger and frustration in the relationship and the woman just sees of like, my partner's just like angry and frustrated all the time, but there's reason

for it. They just don't bring it forward. But yeah, I'm always curious if like you think there are mo conversations men and women need to be having more of, conversations men need to be having more of within themselves. We did. Ben Windle: Definitely. Definitely. That was bars. That was I'm really glad you're open to have that conversation with me, especially towards Grace Brown: Mm. Ben Windle: the end. But yeah, guys, quit fucking jerking off the porn, motherfuckers. Okay, and your life's gonna change. Take my word for it. All right. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: Exactly. Yeah. Grace Brown: Mm-hmm. Ben Windle: All right. Well do you have do you have anything you want the fans to sign off to? Grace Brown: Totally. Ben Windle: Period. Grace Brown: Totally. Can I ask you, do you th and again, I'm just like curio I I hear statistics, I hear the things around this. I the it's so interesting you bring that up 'cause the training I was in was actually a sex therapy training, Ben Windle: Yeah, same. Same. Well, that was super fun. Grace Brown on Instagram. Go follow her. Be a silly goose. We'll see you guys in the next one. Thank you. That was super fun. Grace Brown: and so they were talking about intimate relationships, sex between couples, things that come up tend tend to be porn was one of those things, but I'm always curious of like from your experience working with men or what you see in your world, is it like men are using porn more so to cope? Like it is a coping thing that they are using and a d like an addiction that forms and in a way to cope with their internal emotional experiences or just like a f a fantasy to live out? Like what do you see it being used for more? Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. Ca can I ask you 'cause this is very interesting and in this training that I was in this weekend, part of it working with relationships was you know, as a couples therapist, mm the trainer, which I think this is so true, so There's three systems, and I'm gonna try to keep this short because I know we're on time, but this is there's three systems that run in in a couple. There's the emotional system, the caregiving system, and then there's the sexual system. And therapists will always say, hey, if you work with couples and you don't talk about sex with your couples, then you were leaving one third of the relationship off the table and you're leaving that to like brew and stew. And we call it like the the sexual bond, like the intimate bond within a within a relationship. But something that you you brought up was like you have to be A asking couples about this so that they're actually having a conversation about it because men or women, if you're just not talking about it, then the resentment brews in the background. It causes the it causes more emotional problems in the relationship. And then nobody's just talking about it. It's just like, no, this is just off the table. We just don't talk about it. I think there's a societal aspect to this, but I also think that like there's a relational aspect of this. I'm curious just from your perspective, if you if you think because in the training they were like, there's a world where men and women can talk about this in relationships and men can actually bring forward again in a productive healthy way their frustrations around that s sort of stuff. But I'm curious from your perspective if you see that being a possibility where there's more open conversations. I call it like the sexual bond, the sexual system in a relationship, for men to like be able to feel comfortable talking about those things that go on for them. Okay. Yeah. Totally. Totally mm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know what, yeah, I I totally agree with I totally agree with what you're saying that there needs to be space where men and women can talk about, especially in a relationship. Because again, like, you know, the way that the trainer over the weekend for formulated this to me and I like, wow, this is so important, is that the sexual system, the sexual bond between partners is one-third of the relationship, of like the thing that keeps it strong and sh they were saying they were like if you leave that off the tables and couples stop talking about it stop and it's not to say that like you know women I don't want women to hear this and be like I sh you know being forced you know when you don't want to I'm not saying that I'm just saying that like have a conversation about it in your relationships and allow to hear men out. The trainer he one of the trainers was a man he was talking about how he was like They're doing more research on this because there's not a lot of it, but he was saying from a young age, men tend to be more physical, like roughhousing with each other, you know, you know, playing on like you guys are pushing each other around. There tends to be more physical nature with you guys than than with women. Women tend to be talking more of more of the emotional connection. Men men tend to have more of that physical, physical connection. And we look at how that then is brought into like adult relationships, that men tend to be Able to connect more physics through physicality than women do. And it's not to say that women don't, but that men just tend to bring that forward more. And so part of this is just the way that men and women tend to connect. Again, I'm speaking in general terms of like societally what I see most often and what the research says, but that the physical needs, it's like if we even like desexualize it in some ways to just say, Hey, like men and women have physical needs that sh it should be open to be having. open conversation about so it's not like shamed or shunned of just like, hey, this is actually an important part of your relationship. Let's figure out a way to talk about it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, there's so many layers to this. I'm I'm being mindful of time but Again, the training that I was at this weekend, I was like, wow, this is so interesting for me to even to hear I was just like a woman, but I think f for the sake of like all relationships, it's again, it's like that's one third of the relationship. People should be able to talk about it. And women too want, you know, I think we tend to say like men tend to be more sexual in nature, which is true. And at the same time, women also want to have relationships where they feel a lot of physical intimacy and physical safety. And so like women being able to bring that forward of like, hey, this is when I feel really desired by you and this is when I feel really safe with you emotionally and this is what helps me open up to you in other ways. So like women also being able to bring forward like, hey, what are the parts of this relationship that you also really desire that let's not say just men not it's not like only men are physical. Like women are physical in nature too just tends to look a little bit different. So yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. It also sets unrealistic standards for what sex should be, which I think doesn't cre isn't good for anybody. I don't think so. I'm like, let's be open to having conversations with men and women. Like I'm again, I'm so curious to hear men's perspective on things, and I think men should be curious to hear women's perspective on things, and that's what helps us all come together, make make the world a better place. But yeah, I don't know, I could talk about I could talk about the shit for forever. Yeah. S yeah, see