บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 470: Daniel Coyle - Building Your Culture, Solving Hard Problems, & Winning The Learning Contest

And yours 68 00:04:30.459 --> 00:04:34.019 is one that, that I've had three different people. One 69 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:36.379 guy in my neighborhood, somebody, somebody who I knew back 70 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.449 in Alaska, somebody else saying, I heard you on that. 71 00:04:38.470 --> 00:04:40.850 It was really, really like that show. And so anyway, 72 00:04:40.870 --> 00:04:43.129 you're having a big impact and it's, it's cool to, 73 00:04:43.610 --> 00:04:46.370 to see this, these, these energy and ideas kind of 74 00:04:46.769 --> 00:04:47.810 bouncing around in the world. 75 00:04:48.490 --> 00:04:51.509 Isn't it neat when you see your work in the wild? 76 00:04:51.610 --> 00:04:54.490 So for example, cause I don't know if you, with 77 00:04:54.529 --> 00:04:57.129 the culture code now, it's just, it's probably so normal 78 00:04:57.180 --> 00:04:59.019 that it's not even cool anymore. It's just like, Oh, 79 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:00.939 that's just normal. But like, let's say you are, you're 80 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.920 in an airport and you see somebody reading your book. Like, 81 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:06.160 is that still cool for you? Like, how does that feel? 82 00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:09.810 A thousand percent. Yeah. It's neat. It's neat. And it 83 00:05:09.850 --> 00:05:14.170 really puts really for me, it sort of spotlights this 84 00:05:14.449 --> 00:05:17.170 space between, you know, the ideas of the book and, 85 00:05:17.370 --> 00:05:19.990 and people. And it's like, there's this, There are these 86 00:05:20.009 --> 00:05:22.259 interactions that are happening in that space that are really 87 00:05:22.300 --> 00:05:25.399 unpredictable and really interesting. It's not like everyone just uses 88 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.560 it like a quick startup guide for a DVR or 89 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:31.980 something like that. It's just like, no, it's hitting people 90 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.959 in different ways and different groups are taking it in 91 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:37.569 different ways. And so that's just endlessly neat because it 92 00:05:37.610 --> 00:05:41.430 has to do with this space and this interface where 93 00:05:41.490 --> 00:05:43.350 somebody's in a situation, they have a problem, and then 94 00:05:43.370 --> 00:05:45.750 there's some idea that they can grab onto some toolkit 95 00:05:45.790 --> 00:05:47.410 and interesting stuff happens. 96 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:49.600 That's so cool. And it's like one of the greatest 97 00:05:49.699 --> 00:05:51.680 networking tools ever. I know with the work you do 98 00:05:51.740 --> 00:05:55.759 with the, the guardians baseball team now that, that you're 99 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:58.180 like the guy who brings a lot of things together 100 00:05:58.220 --> 00:06:00.639 for their learning and development group. And I'm grateful you 101 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:03.000 introduced them to me, but what I want to talk 102 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:05.480 about is a couple of things today. One, obviously the 103 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.750 culture code and kind of the playbook written off of that. 104 00:06:09.189 --> 00:06:11.230 When you see this cover, like how does it make 105 00:06:11.259 --> 00:06:13.949 you feel to look and see this, the cover, the 106 00:06:13.990 --> 00:06:15.350 culture playbook book cover? 107 00:06:16.139 --> 00:06:19.430 That's fun. It's fun. This is, you know, to see, 108 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.829 you know, these, you know, the Culture Code came out 109 00:06:22.870 --> 00:06:25.310 three or four years ago. And so this idea of like, 110 00:06:25.790 --> 00:06:28.110 there was this hunger for like, oh, yeah, we want 111 00:06:28.129 --> 00:06:30.709 to have like just some takeaways, right? Some simple. And 112 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:32.110 when I started, I thought it was going to be 113 00:06:32.569 --> 00:06:35.040 pretty simple, right? I'm going to take some idea, take 114 00:06:35.069 --> 00:06:37.839 the best of what great groups are doing and make 115 00:06:37.899 --> 00:06:40.459 kind of a cookbook, right? And then as I got 116 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:44.000 into it, and obviously the pandemic and everything we've lived through, 117 00:06:44.529 --> 00:06:46.990 there was this sense of it all kind of evolving 118 00:06:47.029 --> 00:06:49.810 into something different. Like it started in one place, like 119 00:06:49.850 --> 00:06:52.370 so many projects, right? You know this feeling. So anybody starts, 120 00:06:52.410 --> 00:06:53.910 I got a really clear idea of where I'm going. 121 00:06:53.930 --> 00:06:56.870 And then you go and the journey turns you left 122 00:06:57.050 --> 00:06:59.970 and right and backwards and forwards. And so we ended 123 00:07:00.009 --> 00:07:01.689 up with a book that's much more like sort of 124 00:07:01.709 --> 00:07:05.149 a workbook or an interactive experience that's trying to create 125 00:07:05.180 --> 00:07:08.560 a lot of reflection for people and trying to kind 126 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.079 of occupy the space, right? And trying to get people, 127 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:14.209 what do people need right now? And You know, the 128 00:07:14.250 --> 00:07:16.470 world is so filled with action. The world is so, 129 00:07:16.870 --> 00:07:19.470 so many things to do. And yet we've got this 130 00:07:19.610 --> 00:07:21.370 moment that we've been given the last couple of years 131 00:07:21.410 --> 00:07:23.110 where we can kind of pull back and zoom out 132 00:07:23.149 --> 00:07:26.259 and sort of ask these bigger questions. And so it 133 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:28.139 is like a culture playbook, but I kind of think 134 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:30.779 of it, it kind of functions like a culture pause book. 135 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.180 Like what do we need to zoom out, stop and 136 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:37.500 reflect together about, about who we want to be and 137 00:07:37.579 --> 00:07:40.500 how we want to work together. And

here's some good models, 138 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:43.379 maybe some ideas from great cultures you can copy. Here's 139 00:07:43.420 --> 00:07:45.360 some questions you might want to ponder as a group. 140 00:07:45.870 --> 00:07:49.870 And so that whole idea that like pausing is really productive, 141 00:07:49.970 --> 00:07:53.029 pausing is when the great things happen. Pausing is the 142 00:07:53.069 --> 00:07:55.410 thing we're kind of least good at doing in some 143 00:07:55.449 --> 00:07:58.649 ways in our work. And yet it's sort of the 144 00:07:58.709 --> 00:08:01.100 most powerful thing you can do to sort of stop 145 00:08:01.129 --> 00:08:03.180 and say, wait a minute, what do we look like 146 00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:06.329 at our best? Like, What does that really look like? 147 00:08:07.050 --> 00:08:10.149 What's stopping that from happening? Like, why can't we do 148 00:08:10.189 --> 00:08:12.850 that every single day? Those sorts of questions end up 149 00:08:12.910 --> 00:08:15.189 being really kind of powerful launching pads. 150 00:08:16.149 --> 00:08:18.290 I feel like you're really good at this in your 151 00:08:18.589 --> 00:08:21.610 own life. When we were having dinner, we talked about, 152 00:08:21.629 --> 00:08:24.029 I think, some other writers and people who are kind 153 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:26.889 of at your similar level have sold tons of books. 154 00:08:28.089 --> 00:08:30.589 And one of the things, though, that you didn't seem 155 00:08:30.629 --> 00:08:33.350 to be in too much of a hurry You go 156 00:08:33.370 --> 00:08:35.950 to Alaska every summer with your family, which I love. 157 00:08:36.110 --> 00:08:37.990 I've loved learning about that. I know I asked about 158 00:08:38.009 --> 00:08:39.909 it before we started because I think it's so cool 159 00:08:39.929 --> 00:08:44.899 that you do that. You seem to be very relaxed 160 00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:48.059 in the office when we were meeting for half a day. 161 00:08:48.860 --> 00:08:50.980 In a way, I admire that. It's like this dude 162 00:08:51.200 --> 00:08:54.159 is comfortable in his own skin. He seems to have 163 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.330 figured some things out about life. He still works really 164 00:08:58.379 --> 00:09:02.509 hard and produces great stuff, but isn't like... You're with 165 00:09:02.549 --> 00:09:05.809 your family. You seem to have your priorities in order. 166 00:09:05.990 --> 00:09:07.990 Can you walk me through your mindset of how you 167 00:09:08.029 --> 00:09:12.850 view almost living a pretty cool life and not killing yourself, 168 00:09:12.950 --> 00:09:15.570 even though I'm sure you could be on the speaker 169 00:09:15.610 --> 00:09:19.789 circuit just absolutely crushing it if you wanted. Instead, you 170 00:09:19.809 --> 00:09:22.049 just take a speech here, a speech there. You go 171 00:09:22.100 --> 00:09:24.179 to Alaska. Can you share more about that? 172 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:27.120 Yeah, I don't know. That's a good, that's a good question. 173 00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:29.779 It's been sort of, it's been sort of an instinctive, 174 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:31.980 a set of decisions that have led me to that 175 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:36.519 and not to, um, you know, not to completely, but 176 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.539 there are definitely, you know, times during my life where 177 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:42.899 I have been the guy who doesn't, you know, who 178 00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:46.149 in the NFL, the NFL, you know, animal analogy would 179 00:09:46.169 --> 00:09:48.509 be sleeping under your desk and waking up and going 180 00:09:48.549 --> 00:09:51.529 back and looking at more film. Like that's definitely happened 181 00:09:51.549 --> 00:09:54.840 at times. But there's just always been kind of a 182 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:58.409 kind of a clarity around, you know, the sort of 183 00:09:58.450 --> 00:10:02.190 value of family. And I guess it's because I've made 184 00:10:02.250 --> 00:10:04.690 those mistakes of sort of thinking like there's some areas 185 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:06.850 of life. There's this really interesting distinction that I've been 186 00:10:06.889 --> 00:10:09.629 thinking a lot about lately. It's between things that are 187 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:13.200 complicated and things that are complex. And like things that 188 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:16.100 are complicated have got this sort of linear cause and effect. 189 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.519 If A, it's like Legos, right? If A goes to 190 00:10:18.539 --> 00:10:21.340 B goes to C goes to D. If I want to, 191 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.340 you know, get fit, I should lift weights. I should 192 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:26.559 work out more. Right. There's like, there's like linear cause 193 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.539 and effect. And, and that is some areas of life 194 00:10:29.580 --> 00:10:32.379 that that's really true, but there's the most meaningful areas 195 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.149 of life are not like that. They're more complex. Like 196 00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:38.309 that's where there's not like linear cause and effect where 197 00:10:38.330 --> 00:10:41.129 instead you're kind of like, and it sounds sort of 198 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:44.049 woo to say, but you're kind of like, like, like 199 00:10:44.629 --> 00:10:47.039 in these, you're, you're sort of moving toward these things 200 00:10:47.179 --> 00:10:50.690 in complexity theory, they call them attractors. And like you're 201 00:10:50.769 --> 00:10:53.990 probing and doing experiments and seeing what works and, and 202 00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:57.110 you can't like build it like Legos, right? That's the 203 00:10:57.129 --> 00:10:59.179 thing about things. And the most important things in life 204 00:10:59.320 --> 00:11:02.259 are sort of complex, like your family and your relationship 205 00:11:02.279 --> 00:11:04.620 to your kids, your relationship to your, you know, your 206 00:11:04.659 --> 00:11:07.299

community and all that stuff. And so in that area, 207 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.700 and so in certain areas, you want to be like, okay, 208 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.320 we're going to optimize and maximize. We're going to optimize 209 00:11:12.360 --> 00:11:14.570 and maximize these things. But when it comes to like 210 00:11:14.610 --> 00:11:17.129 these big things of like, what relationships do I want 211 00:11:17.149 --> 00:11:19.850 to have in Don't try to optimize or optimize has 212 00:11:19.870 --> 00:11:22.129 been sort of the takeaway I've had where it's like, 213 00:11:22.230 --> 00:11:26.730 do an experiment and see what works and then like 214 00:11:27.240 --> 00:11:30.460 play with that and see what emerges. And you're much 215 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:34.080 more of an explorer. You're much more of an experimenter 216 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:36.759 trying to do these. Like when we started doing this 217 00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:39.200 Alaska thing, my wife's from Ohio. I'm from Alaska. We 218 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:41.480 lived in Alaska for 15 years and we did this 219 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:44.200 experimental year where it was like, let's, my son's getting 220 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:46.039 into high school. Let's live in Ohio for a year. 221 00:11:46.610 --> 00:11:49.440 And we did. And certain things about that were really 222 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:52.159 interesting and great. It wasn't perfect. No. Was it like 223 00:11:52.570 --> 00:11:56.809 the Lego complicated answer? No, it was, it was hard. 224 00:11:56.850 --> 00:11:59.429 It was weird. It was difficult, but there were enough 225 00:11:59.509 --> 00:12:01.549 about it. That was kind of an attractor that we 226 00:12:01.570 --> 00:12:05.840 like kind of stayed with it. And we evolved this 227 00:12:05.889 --> 00:12:07.620 sort of thing. It was the same thing with my 228 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:11.440 relationship with the Cleveland guardians. Like, Ooh, there's something cool there. 229 00:12:11.659 --> 00:12:14.399 Like there's some really interesting people. There's some really interesting projects. 230 00:12:15.340 --> 00:12:18.769 I could like, speak at a different place every, every 231 00:12:18.850 --> 00:12:20.870 week and be gone all the time. Or these guys 232 00:12:20.909 --> 00:12:22.889 are right down the road from me. Like they're 15 233 00:12:22.889 --> 00:12:25.169 minute drive from my, from when we live in Ohio. 234 00:12:25.590 --> 00:12:28.330 Like I could go down there every, every Thursday afternoon. 235 00:12:28.389 --> 00:12:31.169 Let's see what that happens. So, and I think when 236 00:12:31.269 --> 00:12:33.700 everybody reflects on like the best stuff in their life, 237 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.639 I think it comes from this more like exploration place, 238 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:40.879 not the, I have the answer. I know the answer. 239 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.580 If then, like, if I do this, then I will 240 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:46.919 be happy. Like that's always a mistake. So, this, this 241 00:12:47.000 --> 00:12:49.059 concept of like, like I'm sure in your own life, 242 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:53.039 like when you started this podcast, you didn't have any clarity. 243 00:12:53.059 --> 00:12:56.230 You had an attractor that was like, I kind of 244 00:12:56.250 --> 00:12:58.190 want to go here. Let's see what happens. And then 245 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:00.230 some cool stuff happened and you amplified that. 246 00:13:00.549 --> 00:13:00.769 Right. 247 00:13:01.370 --> 00:13:03.409 And I think most of the good things in life 248 00:13:03.590 --> 00:13:06.649 come out of that sort of process where you're not 249 00:13:06.750 --> 00:13:11.059 sort of using a cookbook and just plug and play. 250 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:14.700 You're like, playing, you're playing in a different way. You're 251 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:18.320 playing in this area that's in more of a conversational way. 252 00:13:18.379 --> 00:13:20.019 Like I'm going to try something, then the world's going 253 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:22.720 to talk back to me. And I'm going to say, no, 254 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.139 that's terrible. Let's not do that. Or this is interesting. 255 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:25.860 Let's do more of that. 256 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:31.049 It's like relationships. It's hard to hack or optimize them. 257 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:34.889 I think they just have to happen. I think about 258 00:13:34.929 --> 00:13:40.620 time with your kids. Sometimes you just have to be. right? 259 00:13:40.659 --> 00:13:42.759 Like be present. You go on the car ride to 260 00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:45.809 the volleyball tournament, you're in the hotel, you're waiting between, 261 00:13:46.029 --> 00:13:48.230 whatever it may be. Like you're just being in like 262 00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:53.049 those little moments. That's when relationships get built. And it's, 263 00:13:53.809 --> 00:13:56.429 but it's not like, okay, we have to plan 17 264 00:13:56.429 --> 00:13:58.360 trips and go here and go here. It's like, it's 265 00:13:58.580 --> 00:14:02.419 all the, the, the in-between stuff is the stuff is 266 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.600 what builds things. Same thing with building a podcast. I committed, 267 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:10.919 to following my curiosity with great rigor. That was it, right? 268 00:14:11.250 --> 00:14:14.470 I'm going to reach out to people that I admire, 269 00:14:14.590 --> 00:14:17.470 that I think could tell compelling stories that I'm first 270 00:14:17.509 --> 00:14:20.970 and foremost curious about, and maybe others would be too. 271 00:14:21.870 --> 00:14:24.370 And maybe then those people would want to follow along. 272 00:14:24.409 --> 00:14:27.570 And then again, it kind of works. And then you 273 00:14:27.590 --> 00:14:30.190 double down and triple down and say, okay, here we go. 274 00:14:30.289 --> 00:14:33.629 But still remember, like, what was the general impetus for 275

00:14:33.669 --> 00:14:36.029 doing it in the first place and staying true to that? 276 00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:40.559 So I could talk about this stuff with you, Dan, 277 00:14:40.600 --> 00:14:44.000 all day. Let's dive into some culture stuff. So first 278 00:14:44.070 --> 00:14:47.529 and foremost, what do you think are some of the 279 00:14:47.629 --> 00:14:52.549 biggest misconceptions about culture? Yeah. 280 00:14:52.929 --> 00:14:55.769 Yeah. No, it's a huge one. It's a lesson that 281 00:14:55.850 --> 00:15:01.440 we're continually learning, and we've learned it really, really vividly 282 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:04.220 over the last couple of years, right? I'd say number 283 00:15:04.340 --> 00:15:09.100 one is that it's– If you get, there's a misconception 284 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:14.070 that successful cultures are happy places. Huge misconception. You sort 285 00:15:14.110 --> 00:15:16.009 of think from the outside, oh man, Pixar. Like if 286 00:15:16.070 --> 00:15:18.850 I walked into Pixar, I would just see people having 287 00:15:18.870 --> 00:15:22.529 these idea-filled meetings and every idea would be good. And 288 00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:26.549 every film they produced would be great. And every person 289 00:15:26.570 --> 00:15:30.159 there would therefore be like fulfilled and happy all the time, 290 00:15:30.259 --> 00:15:34.120 walking around on, you know, on a cloud. That is 291 00:15:34.279 --> 00:15:39.659 definitely not true. Like when you go there, there's a happiness, 292 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:43.620 but it's a different kind of happiness. I describe it 293 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:47.230 in the book a little bit as deep fun. And 294 00:15:47.269 --> 00:15:49.970 this idea of deep fun is where you're sort of 295 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:55.090 solving hard problems with people you admire. And you're getting real. 296 00:15:55.169 --> 00:15:59.379 Like you're not having relationship conflict. You're having task conflict 297 00:15:59.409 --> 00:16:01.399 is what it's called, where you're seeing if the best 298 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:05.879 idea can win. You're trying to have these, you're bringing 299 00:16:05.909 --> 00:16:09.700 up tensions and you're turning toward those tensions together and saying, 300 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:12.759 what's really the best thing we can do here? Tell 301 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.299 me if I need help. Help me out with this. 302 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:18.009 This is not as good as it can be. I 303 00:16:18.029 --> 00:16:19.649 need you to poke holes in it. I need you 304 00:16:19.669 --> 00:16:21.909 to make it better. And then I'll make it better too. 305 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:25.330 And we'll gather around it. And that's like this shared 306 00:16:25.389 --> 00:16:28.429 reflex that I think great cultures have. Because when a 307 00:16:28.580 --> 00:16:32.059 problem comes up, when or even when an opportunity comes up, 308 00:16:32.129 --> 00:16:34.700 there's sometimes a tendency to turn away from it. Like 309 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:37.600 let's just do business as usual. Like it's a Tuesday. 310 00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:40.379 I'm comfortable. You're comfortable. Let's just do our job and 311 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:44.299 get out. But when this, when something new happens, what happens? 312 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.299 Is there a reflex to like turn toward it together 313 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.919 and say, well, that's not good. Like that, how, what 314 00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:54.330 are we gonna do about this? And that's, I think 315 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.690 what strong cultures have and that experience of gathering around 316 00:16:57.730 --> 00:17:01.710 a problem shoulder to shoulder. and like struggling with it 317 00:17:01.730 --> 00:17:03.990 and making mistakes and making it better and making more 318 00:17:04.009 --> 00:17:07.089 mistakes and making it better. It, it's, it's a very 319 00:17:07.130 --> 00:17:09.690 particular kind of fun. And I think that is the 320 00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:11.869 kind of deep fun that you find at these places. 321 00:17:11.890 --> 00:17:14.970 So that's, to me, that's, that's the huge misconception because 322 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:18.140 we sort of are always thinking that, Oh, if we 323 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:20.140 get to that happy, happy place, we're going to be, 324 00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:21.859 we're going to be on a higher. 325 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:25.299 Plane now, you know, doing hard things together. I learned 326 00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:29.119 that through athletic endeavors. I had coach high school coaches 327 00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:33.440 who studied military leaders. They actually are, or some are, 328 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:35.759 some of them are from there, uh, want to, want 329 00:17:35.779 --> 00:17:39.349 to school there. Obviously you spent time with Navy SEALs. 330 00:17:39.400 --> 00:17:42.250 I think doing hard things together and being able to 331 00:17:42.289 --> 00:17:44.609 look left and right that we did this hard thing 332 00:17:44.650 --> 00:17:50.309 together then can lead to an amazing culture. Um, I'm curious. 333 00:17:50.329 --> 00:17:53.390 So you, I was rereading, um, the Pixar section of 334 00:17:53.470 --> 00:17:57.750 culture code last night and fascinated by Ed Catmull. Like 335 00:17:58.009 --> 00:18:00.670 what are, what are some of the, the amazing things 336 00:18:00.769 --> 00:18:03.779 or most useful things you say you've learned from spending 337 00:18:03.819 --> 00:18:06.059 time at Pixar and time with Ed Catmull? 338 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.819 A bunch of things. I mean, you know, he's unbelievable 339 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.640 at being open about the mistakes they've made. You know, 340 00:18:12.660 --> 00:18:14.680 I tell the story in the book that he'll just 341 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:16.460 sort of say, yeah, we made a huge mistake building 342 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:19.259 this building. It's probably a $ 20

million building and he's 343 00:18:19.380 --> 00:18:23.099 counting the mistakes. And the thing that I really appreciated 344 00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:26.339 from him is a few things. One was how patient 345 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.450 he was. Like, Really, really. There was a time where 346 00:18:30.470 --> 00:18:33.130 there was a there was a they sort of have 347 00:18:33.289 --> 00:18:37.150 each movie creates a project team in Pixar. And so 348 00:18:37.170 --> 00:18:39.269 you have a project team that's just like if there's 349 00:18:39.309 --> 00:18:42.009 a movie about Scotland, like they're visiting Scotland and learning 350 00:18:42.029 --> 00:18:45.650 about Scotland history. He watches those teams and he waits 351 00:18:46.210 --> 00:18:48.740 and he waits for something cool to happen. And there 352 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:50.259 was a time where one of his teams, they were 353 00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:54.259 doing something with the outdoors and they they pitched a tent. 354 00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:56.619 One day they pitched a tent like in the office 355 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.380 as part of an experiment. And he was so pleased 356 00:18:59.390 --> 00:19:02.920 with that. He couldn't force them to do stuff, but 357 00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:06.130 whenever they did anything, he would spotlight it, amplify it. 358 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.720 And he was so delighted. So he had this, like 359 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:12.420 as a creative leader to sort of equip them with 360 00:19:12.519 --> 00:19:15.700 this project and equip them with this idea. And his 361 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:19.339 favorite phrase is now it's up to you. Isn't that 362 00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:21.640 a good phrase? Cause it's like, he'll sort of equip 363 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.589 you and then he'll say, now Ryan, it's up to you. And, 364 00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:27.079 and it's, So they've got the ownership. And then when 365 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:31.269 they do something that is worthy, that is like showing, 366 00:19:31.289 --> 00:19:34.529 that's creating, I mean, in complexity theory, creating an attractor, 367 00:19:34.569 --> 00:19:36.789 like this tent, right? It's going to attract all kinds 368 00:19:36.829 --> 00:19:41.329 of interesting ideas and creativity. And then celebrating it. So 369 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:44.670 this immense patience to sort of say, I can't force 370 00:19:44.710 --> 00:19:48.430 these people to be creative, right? I can't make it happen. 371 00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:52.279 I concede this. the clouds, you know, like cloud seeding. 372 00:19:52.380 --> 00:19:54.950 And then when like lightning strikes, I can say, hey, 373 00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:57.200 look at that. That's pretty cool. And I can celebrate 374 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:00.940 that around the company. So that was another one. And 375 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.039 I guess the other thing is that he really had 376 00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:07.220 a backbone of humility. He always knew what, he always 377 00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:10.549 was aware that there was things going on that he 378 00:20:10.589 --> 00:20:14.509 didn't know. There were always, he always knew that projects 379 00:20:14.529 --> 00:20:16.069 had a way of going off the rails or the 380 00:20:16.109 --> 00:20:19.549 creative people can sometimes be very difficult to deal with. And, 381 00:20:20.190 --> 00:20:23.950 and he was really, really humble about that. And I 382 00:20:23.970 --> 00:20:27.869 think that, that combination, like, you know, when we think 383 00:20:27.890 --> 00:20:32.559 of leaders, we often have this cultural baggage, this idea 384 00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:35.460 of a leader as an admiral, the leader as this, 385 00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:40.089 this bold, strong kind of masculine personality. presence that knows 386 00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:43.730 things we don't, can see things we can't, and then 387 00:20:43.869 --> 00:20:46.410 tells us what to do, like that authoritative model of 388 00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:49.880 a leader. And what I kept seeing at these places, 389 00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:53.279 and Catmull is perfectly representative of this, is a really 390 00:20:53.339 --> 00:20:57.819 different model of a leader, much more humble, much more patient, 391 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:04.450 much more of a teammate, actually. Catmull doesn't walk around thinking, 392 00:21:04.750 --> 00:21:06.809 I'm the leader. I need to say something. Well, the 393 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:09.880 power is not with him. The power is with how 394 00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.700 can I support my team? That's really the question on 395 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.799 his mind. And I think given the way the world 396 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.700 is changing, like if we've learned anything in the last 397 00:21:19.779 --> 00:21:24.759 few years, it's that like great, if someone says they're 398 00:21:24.779 --> 00:21:28.660 a great leader, like that's a huge red flag. If 399 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:31.240 someone starts acting like a great leader, that's a huge 400 00:21:31.329 --> 00:21:34.210 red flag. Go to Netflix right now. What are the 401 00:21:34.230 --> 00:21:38.630 movies people are watching? WeWork, The Dropout, Elizabeth Holmes, Theranos. 402 00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:43.140 Travis Kalanick at Uber. All of them are the same story. 403 00:21:43.720 --> 00:21:47.140 It's somebody who said, it's me. It's me. I've got 404 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:48.559 the answers. I've got a new way of doing things. 405 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.819 I'm different. And this takes you on a path, as 406 00:21:52.900 --> 00:21:56.799 those movies and stories and case studies so vividly show, 407 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.180 a path of making mistakes, a path of hubris, a 408 00:22:00.259 --> 00:22:04.059 path of toxicity, a path of ego. And what you 409 00:22:04.119 --> 00:22:07.880 find in good cultures is a really different backbone of humility. 410 00:22:07.900 -->

00:22:10.059 You find a bunch of capitals. You find people who 411 00:22:10.099 --> 00:22:12.579 are saying, I don't have the answer. Now it's up 412 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:15.460 to you. Can you help me figure it out? 413 00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:17.710 Have you ever studied Elon Musk? 414 00:22:18.990 --> 00:22:22.630 No, not up close. I think he's kind of a 415 00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:23.309 fascinating guy. 416 00:22:23.849 --> 00:22:25.970 What do you think about that? Because there's a little 417 00:22:25.990 --> 00:22:30.480 bit of this, I can fix Twitter. And to his credit, 418 00:22:31.490 --> 00:22:35.029 I don't know if there's another person on the planet 419 00:22:35.069 --> 00:22:37.829 that all of a sudden is sending rockets and landing 420 00:22:37.869 --> 00:22:41.390 them and building electric cars that seem to be pretty awesome. 421 00:22:41.430 --> 00:22:43.809 I don't have one, but whatever. What do you think 422 00:22:43.869 --> 00:22:45.869 about somebody like... Is that just an anomaly? It's on 423 00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:47.410 the side? Or what do you think when it comes 424 00:22:47.430 --> 00:22:48.609 to culture and a person like him? 425 00:22:49.109 --> 00:22:54.440 There's always an exception, but my spidey sense is tingling. 426 00:22:54.980 --> 00:22:59.299 I think there's problems. And I think... I think if 427 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.700 we take the long view on that, the idea that 428 00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:03.900 he can be absolutely right about all this stuff is 429 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:07.640 the probability of that is very remote. He has a 430 00:23:07.660 --> 00:23:09.640 lot of power because he has a lot of money, 431 00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:14.940 but they clearly have some cultural problems there. And it 432 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:18.019 is right now. He's sort of, he's exactly at that 433 00:23:18.099 --> 00:23:21.779 point where Elizabeth Holmes was in 2014. He's exactly at 434 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:24.720 that point where Travis Kalanick was, you know, around the 435 00:23:24.740 --> 00:23:28.410 same time. He's exactly where we work was five years ago. So, 436 00:23:29.349 --> 00:23:31.349 if that all kind of falls apart, I don't think 437 00:23:31.470 --> 00:23:34.049 anybody's going to say, Oh, I'm so surprised. I mean, 438 00:23:34.789 --> 00:23:36.430 he's interesting. He's, he's interesting. 439 00:23:36.450 --> 00:23:38.809 I think some would be surprised considering if you look 440 00:23:38.829 --> 00:23:40.869 at like the Tesla stock price. And I know a 441 00:23:41.009 --> 00:23:43.809 lot of people say it's super overvalued, but, but like, 442 00:23:43.849 --> 00:23:45.509 I think there would be a lot of people who 443 00:23:45.549 --> 00:23:47.490 invest too, would be surprised. Wouldn't you? I mean, you 444 00:23:47.529 --> 00:23:49.549 wouldn't be invested if you were, if you thought that, 445 00:23:49.670 --> 00:23:51.710 if you thought he was the next Elizabeth Holmes or 446 00:23:51.789 --> 00:23:52.470 Travis Kalanick. 447 00:23:52.490 --> 00:23:54.980 A lot of people invested, invested in them at that 448 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:55.480 time too. 449 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:56.900 And that's true. 450 00:23:56.920 --> 00:23:59.059 They were the right person. So, I don't know. I 451 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.720 would prefer to take the Catmull patient long view. Let's 452 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:03.119 see what happens. 453 00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:07.319 Yeah. By the way, this is just for me. And 454 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:10.599 maybe it's because you've already produced great work, but how 455 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.759 do you get access to somebody like Ed Catmull and 456 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:15.549 just go in to visit Pixar and say, hey, I'm 457 00:24:15.569 --> 00:24:17.450 writing a book? I mean, a lot of people can 458 00:24:17.490 --> 00:24:19.529 say I'm writing a book on culture or whatever. How 459 00:24:19.549 --> 00:24:21.569 do you get access to Danny Meyer, who I'm going 460 00:24:21.589 --> 00:24:23.829 to ask about next, or Ed Catmull or the others, 461 00:24:24.549 --> 00:24:27.470 Navy SEALs? How were you able to do that? 462 00:24:28.059 --> 00:24:32.589 It varies. I mean, in certain cases, um, small, sort 463 00:24:32.609 --> 00:24:35.130 of a small literary world ends up helping a little bit. 464 00:24:35.329 --> 00:24:40.190 My editor at Random House is Ed Catmull's editor. And 465 00:24:40.210 --> 00:24:42.490 so he was able to introduce us. My agent, my 466 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:45.460 book agent is Danny Myers agent. Um, and so he 467 00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:48.420 was able to introduce us. So the idea that these places, 468 00:24:48.500 --> 00:24:51.720 these people that run good cultures tend to, um, have 469 00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:54.420 those sorts of people. And that's one, that's one way. 470 00:24:54.569 --> 00:24:57.609 Some of them are harder. the San Antonio Spurs was 471 00:24:57.890 --> 00:25:01.390 almost impossible to sort of get a visit with, but 472 00:25:01.509 --> 00:25:03.910 here's the, here was the thing with them and with 473 00:25:03.950 --> 00:25:07.930 some other ones, what ended up creating the conversation was 474 00:25:08.049 --> 00:25:12.170 their urge to learn. When, when I was able to say, Hey, 475 00:25:13.690 --> 00:25:16.430 you know, I'm doing this project. It's about, it's about 476 00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:19.579 leadership and culture and being a great teammate. And, and 477 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:22.319 they're really curious, right? They're, they're RC Buford and other 478 00:25:22.339 --> 00:25:24.779 people are very, very curious. And so that, that was 479 00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.180 also a, And of course, when I did go to 480 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:33.390 San Antonio, I spent the whole time being interviewed by R.C. Buford, basically. 481 00:25:33.789 --> 00:25:36.609 I asked him some questions, but he oh, he's an 482 00:25:36.650 -->

00:25:40.470 amazing person. And and he had all kinds of questions about, oh, 483 00:25:40.490 --> 00:25:42.369 you've been to these places. Tell me what they're like. 484 00:25:42.730 --> 00:25:45.140 Can you introduce me to the, you know, the Navy 485 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:49.039 SEAL buds director and all this stuff? So that part 486 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:52.000 of it, because that's what makes them great. Like they 487 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.220 don't to go back to your your first question about 488 00:25:55.240 --> 00:25:57.910 the misconception. They don't think that they've got it all 489 00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:01.029 figured out, right? I mean, they should in some ways, 490 00:26:01.069 --> 00:26:03.400 like they should walk around being really confident, but they don't. 491 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.799 They walk around being really curious. And so when you say, hey, 492 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.720 here's some interesting people you might be able to learn from, 493 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:09.369 they're all in. 494 00:26:10.539 --> 00:26:12.599 That's what blew me away when I was with you 495 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:14.299 guys in Cleveland. I think I've already told you this, 496 00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:18.009 but I come in and it's you and Jay Hennessy, 497 00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:22.390 who's a longtime Navy SEAL and Josh Gibson, another brilliant, 498 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:25.839 brilliant guy. And then and walks Chris, the president of 499 00:26:25.900 --> 00:26:28.880 the team, the baseball team. And all of a sudden, 500 00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:32.400 you guys are asking me questions, and I'm thinking, what's happening? 501 00:26:32.619 --> 00:26:37.089 What are we doing here? This is insane. This should 502 00:26:37.109 --> 00:26:40.470 be completely one way, meaning me asking you, which we 503 00:26:40.509 --> 00:26:42.190 did have a good back and forth since we spent 504 00:26:42.869 --> 00:26:44.650 a good amount of time together. But I was blown 505 00:26:44.710 --> 00:26:48.289 away by the curiosity of you four in that room 506 00:26:48.329 --> 00:26:53.059 where it was so genuine and so real. You've interviewed 507 00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:55.920 hundreds and hundreds of these, these great performers. We like 508 00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:59.119 your podcast. We want to learn. We're curious. And that 509 00:26:59.140 --> 00:27:01.480 I was like, this is why this organization is so 510 00:27:01.539 --> 00:27:04.529 good because of this mentality right here blew me away. 511 00:27:05.130 --> 00:27:08.269 Well, it's, it's not, there's a clarity that I think 512 00:27:08.309 --> 00:27:10.410 the guardians have that I think a lot of good 513 00:27:10.450 --> 00:27:13.809 cultures have, which is like, we are, you know, the 514 00:27:13.849 --> 00:27:16.710 world we live in is a learning contest. You know, 515 00:27:16.730 --> 00:27:19.930 the world we live in is not an execution contest necessarily. 516 00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:23.599

It's not a confidence contest. It's a learning contest. What 517 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.660 helps you with learning? Like those sorts of attributes where 518 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:29.430 you're continually saying, you know, I think we've got it 519 00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:32.089 figured out right now, but what's, who else can help us? 520 00:27:32.150 --> 00:27:35.150 What else is coming around the corner? How can we 521 00:27:35.609 --> 00:27:38.369 get better, a little bit better today? And if you 522 00:27:38.430 --> 00:27:42.990 like build your values and, and model that sort of stuff, 523 00:27:43.029 --> 00:27:46.720 it ends up being a really, it's getting better. You know, 524 00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:48.859 people always talk a lot about, you know, the culture 525 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:51.140 of purpose and mission and everything else like that. But, 526 00:27:51.549 --> 00:27:54.150 I think all, a lot of good cultures have that 527 00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:58.880 deeply in common because maybe 50 years ago, if you're 528 00:27:58.890 --> 00:28:03.720 a Ford motor company and it's 1935, like, yeah, it's 529 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.380 an execution contest. There are certain things you can do 530 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.019 to like, I'm going to be better than you because 531 00:28:09.079 --> 00:28:11.599 I have this assembly line and I'm going to be 532 00:28:11.619 --> 00:28:14.400 a big famous law firm because I hired these big 533 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.420 shot lawyers, but that's all going away. It's like, it's, 534 00:28:17.539 --> 00:28:22.289 it's really a time of flexibility. How do you stay 535 00:28:22.430 --> 00:28:25.869 connected and learn is really the question that everybody's facing. 536 00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.799 Let's say you're a leader who is either starting a 537 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:34.299 new season or in the business world. So like in 538 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:37.220 sports or in the business world, starting potentially a new job, 539 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.680 or you have a new team, a new whatever, what 540 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:44.519 are some of the first things that that person should do? You're, 541 00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:47.869 you know, last year's over, like we were onto this year, whatever, 542 00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:52.789 there are changes, maybe it's personnel. project, you got promoted, 543 00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:55.069 perhaps you go to a new company, whatever it may be. 544 00:28:55.450 --> 00:28:57.329 What are some of the first things from a culture 545 00:28:57.369 --> 00:29:00.849 perspective that that leader should think about when starting new? 546 00:29:01.710 --> 00:29:05.690 Conceptually, think about this question of connection and safety, right? 547 00:29:05.789 --> 00:29:08.990 That's the foundation on which all this stuff happens. Without 548 00:29:09.049 --> 00:29:11.369 psychological safety, you can be as smart as you want 549 00:29:11.410 --> 00:29:13.150 to be, but

you will not be able to add 550 00:29:13.190 --> 00:29:14.990 up to more than the sum of your parts because 551 00:29:15.630 --> 00:29:18.890 you're not giving people voice. And that's one sort of 552 00:29:19.009 --> 00:29:23.049 slight misconception about safety. That word is obviously in the 553 00:29:23.089 --> 00:29:27.519 leadership world. And people can sometimes think, well, that means 554 00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:29.920 everybody should just feel safe all the time, like feel 555 00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:33.009 like you're wrapped in fleece or something. And that's not it. 556 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.519 Safety is actually about voice. As Amy Edmondson says, she's 557 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:40.720 sort of a pioneer of psychological safety who a professor 558 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.019 at Harvard. It is not about making people feel safe. 559 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:46.799 It's actually about making sure that everyone has a voice. 560 00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:50.410 So with that sort of concept in mind, I think 561 00:29:50.470 --> 00:29:53.029 one of the first things for any new team is 562 00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:56.609 to create a space where everyone has voice, where you 563 00:29:56.690 --> 00:30:01.329 are building something together, co-creating something together. And one useful 564 00:30:01.390 --> 00:30:06.250 thing to co-create is kind of a team charter. Just 565 00:30:06.529 --> 00:30:09.750 start out the new year with, all right, old year's gone, 566 00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:15.319 new year's starting, new set of challenges. Let's talk about 567 00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:17.180 how we're going to work together, what we're going to 568 00:30:17.220 --> 00:30:19.660 work toward, what our rules of engagement are going to be. 569 00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:23.000 And there's all kinds of tools, and I have some 570 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:25.619 of them in the culture playbook that help you do that. 571 00:30:25.779 --> 00:30:29.490 Like make a one-page kind of user's guide. to each person. 572 00:30:29.730 --> 00:30:32.450 Everyone reflects, writes a one pager. I am at my 573 00:30:32.490 --> 00:30:35.630 best when fill it in. I am at my worst 574 00:30:35.690 --> 00:30:37.950 when fill it in. What I need from this team 575 00:30:38.049 --> 00:30:40.029 is fill it in. What I can help this team 576 00:30:40.049 --> 00:30:43.690 with is fill it in and create that. And then, 577 00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:46.039 you know, another idea might be to sort of, let's 578 00:30:46.099 --> 00:30:48.059 write that one page. Let's write a, let's write a 579 00:30:48.140 --> 00:30:50.960 team charter. Let's figure out what we're going to do 580 00:30:51.019 --> 00:30:53.099 and how we're going to do it is a, um, 581 00:30:54.509 --> 00:30:56.809 One group that's really successful at that is the design 582 00:30:56.849 --> 00:31:00.769 firm IDEO, which I know you're a fan of. Every 583 00:31:00.809 --> 00:31:05.910 project team, their insight is every project team is sort 584 00:31:05.930 --> 00:31:09.049 of like a journey. And so they do these flight meetings. 585 00:31:09.269 --> 00:31:11.609 They have a pre-flight meeting, a mid-flight meeting, and a 586 00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:14.710 post-flight meeting. And the purpose of each of them is 587 00:31:14.769 --> 00:31:18.039 to like. turn your attention away from the project. Like 588 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:19.599 that's the mistake that a lot of teams do. They 589 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:21.400 just work on the project, work on the project. And 590 00:31:21.460 --> 00:31:24.640 our world is built. Our workflows are built. Our apps 591 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:28.700 are built. Our desks are built to like spotlight focus 592 00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:30.759 on the project. Where are we? What are we getting done? 593 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:32.920 And what they do with these meetings is that they 594 00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:36.990 pull that spotlight focus off the project and they put 595 00:31:37.029 --> 00:31:40.750 it on the team itself. Like, are we working well together? 596 00:31:40.769 --> 00:31:42.849 You know, those are some of the questions they ask. 597 00:31:43.190 --> 00:31:46.900 How might we, what's working? What's not working? And what 598 00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:50.500 should we do differently? Like, it's a really simple question, 599 00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:54.160 but it's almost like, you know, it's like when a 600 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.119 Formula One car, they do go to the pit stops 601 00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:59.220 every once in a while, right? Like you don't just 602 00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:02.079 race all the time and make the turn and pass 603 00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:04.779 the guy. You pull in the pit stops and you say, no, 604 00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:07.220 we kind of need some new tires here or we 605 00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:11.480 need more fuel. And so these very simple meetings where 606 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:14.900 you've got the team together and they talk about what 607 00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:17.329 what are you most excited about? Like, what are you 608 00:32:17.369 --> 00:32:20.490 most jazzed about this year in this project? That's such 609 00:32:20.529 --> 00:32:24.809 a simple, powerful question to ask or ask, like, what 610 00:32:24.849 --> 00:32:27.109 do we look like at our best? Like, let's talk 611 00:32:27.150 --> 00:32:29.690 about that. Do we have a similar vision of that? 612 00:32:29.869 --> 00:32:31.490 Or do I think we're at our best when we're 613 00:32:31.569 --> 00:32:34.049 all working solo and you think we're at our best 614 00:32:34.089 --> 00:32:35.250 when we're really creative? 615 00:32:36.630 --> 00:32:38.880 It's a vulnerability. 616 00:32:38.970 --> 00:32:41.400 It's a vulnerable exercise, right? It's hard to have that exercise, 617 00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:45.390 but vulnerability is really kind of about visibility. Like, Let's 618 00:32:45.509 --> 00:32:49.210 create a shared sense of where we are,

of our 619 00:32:49.299 --> 00:32:52.339 situational awareness with each other so that we can function 620 00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:53.000 better as a group. 621 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:55.839 One of the exercises I do with leadership teams, Dan, 622 00:32:55.880 --> 00:33:00.220 is called a user manual. There's a manual for every... 623 00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:03.220 There's a user manual for this light, for this camera, 624 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.079 for this screen, for this computer, right? There's user manuals 625 00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:13.710 for everything except for people. And I've wondered why. Why 626 00:33:13.750 --> 00:33:16.650 do we not... It's a series of prompts and questions 627 00:33:16.730 --> 00:33:20.430 followed by then conversations about your user manual. Sometimes you 628 00:33:20.450 --> 00:33:22.599 tweak it after you talk about it because people who 629 00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:24.940 have known you for a while say, actually, but my 630 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:28.299 point is it's the process of pausing, as you mentioned, 631 00:33:28.579 --> 00:33:31.019 which I think you're something you're really good at being 632 00:33:31.059 --> 00:33:35.180 a thoughtful person, documenting kind of the way that you go, 633 00:33:35.299 --> 00:33:38.470 having a conversation about it. Don't you think that team 634 00:33:38.529 --> 00:33:41.009 who's focused on their user manual and learning the manuals 635 00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:44.099 of others and getting to know them and having Dialogue, right? 636 00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:47.740 Jay Hennessey is really big on dialogue and talking things out. 637 00:33:47.779 --> 00:33:51.700 That's team learning. Peter Sanjay, the fifth discipline, right? All 638 00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:55.670 of that, I think, is a big part of culture building. 639 00:33:55.690 --> 00:33:58.190 And people leave those meetings, I remember them, I just 640 00:33:58.210 --> 00:34:02.430 did one, with these huge smiles. Because they've learned a 641 00:34:02.490 --> 00:34:05.549 lot about other people, and they've got to share about themselves. 642 00:34:05.569 --> 00:34:08.449 And I think it's brought, it brings people together. And 643 00:34:08.949 --> 00:34:11.179 I would imagine the results typically then follow. 644 00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:14.780 A hundred percent. I couldn't agree with that more. I mean, 645 00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.000 that moment of vulnerability feels weird in a lot of settings, right? 646 00:34:18.019 --> 00:34:19.920 It feels weird for me to say, here's where I'm 647 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:22.360 at my best, Brian. Here's where I'm at my worst. 648 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:26.530 Like it feels egotistical. It feels vulnerable, right? It's strange. 649 00:34:26.949 --> 00:34:30.969 But that's kind of the weird little group magic that 650 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:35.309 this is tapping into. Like that pain of exposure or 651 00:34:35.329 --> 00:34:39.730 of vulnerability is what brings people together. Like that, you know, 652 00:34:39.750 --> 00:34:43.909 it's called a vulnerability loop. but it is not magic. 653 00:34:44.110 --> 00:34:47.050 It's like, if you think about the people you're closest 654 00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:50.409 to in your life, it's not people you're not vulnerable with, right? 655 00:34:50.809 --> 00:34:54.889 It's those moments of shared vulnerability create that visibility that 656 00:34:54.989 --> 00:34:58.239 lets you function better. And it's not, it feels like magic, 657 00:34:58.699 --> 00:35:02.420 but it's just like physical exercise, right? Like if you 658 00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:05.239 go to work out and you don't feel any pain, 659 00:35:06.019 --> 00:35:08.079 it is not a good workout. You did not get stronger. 660 00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:10.429 You did not get stronger today. So if you have 661 00:35:10.449 --> 00:35:13.289 these group interactions and they're always safe and you never 662 00:35:13.349 --> 00:35:16.929 feel risk and you always feel very secure, you are 663 00:35:16.969 --> 00:35:18.630 not getting better as a group. You're not in a 664 00:35:18.650 --> 00:35:20.730 good group. If you have a meeting and every idea 665 00:35:20.750 --> 00:35:22.380 is a good one, you're not in a good group. 666 00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:25.119 If you have a meeting and nobody disagrees with anybody, 667 00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:27.920 you're not in a good group. But if you're in 668 00:35:27.940 --> 00:35:31.440 a meeting where people are actually saying, this is what 669 00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:34.780 I need from you. This is what I hope to provide. 670 00:35:34.820 --> 00:35:36.780 And this is where I'm bad. And this is where 671 00:35:36.800 --> 00:35:39.199 I think you might have some work to do. Those 672 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.460 are really hard, but that's what makes it strong. 673 00:35:42.079 --> 00:35:45.260 Yep. Like most great things, it's usually hard leading up 674 00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:47.719 to the moments, whether it's preparing for a test, a game, 675 00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.679 a speech, writing a book, it's hard. You know, it's much, 676 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.500 much delayed gratification is very important in that case. But anyway, 677 00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:57.039 it's hard. I want to talk for a second about 678 00:35:57.139 --> 00:36:02.440 goals because this is something I personally am all over 679 00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:05.559 the map. And I know others have seemed to have 680 00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:09.880 similar thoughts at times. this mindset of I'm just going 681 00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:12.360 to fall in love with the process and the score 682 00:36:12.380 --> 00:36:14.980 will take care of itself as Bill Walsh might've written about, 683 00:36:15.699 --> 00:36:18.949 or no, I'm setting these big ambitious goals that are 684 00:36:19.030 --> 00:36:21.769 very specific and I've got, they're very stretched and I've 685 00:36:21.829 --> 00:36:24.090 got to go hit those

numbers, a number of wins 686 00:36:24.150 --> 00:36:28.530 per year, uh, a certain revenue target. So I go 687 00:36:28.570 --> 00:36:31.269 back and forth and struggle between, let me just fall 688 00:36:31.309 --> 00:36:33.949 in love with the process, surrender the outcome. As my 689 00:36:33.989 --> 00:36:36.409 friend broke cups might say, who's written a book with 690 00:36:36.469 --> 00:36:39.239 that title. Or no, I need to, I need to 691 00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:42.389 be very specific in these goals with numbers and everything. 692 00:36:42.429 --> 00:36:44.650 So where do you, where do you fall on that? 693 00:36:45.010 --> 00:36:47.059 And what do you think overall about the mindset of, 694 00:36:47.250 --> 00:36:47.929 of goal setting? 695 00:36:48.570 --> 00:36:50.369 I guess I fall in kind of a, I I'm 696 00:36:50.710 --> 00:36:53.989 looking for a middle way there because on the one hand, 697 00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:56.230 if you are very specific about those goals and you 698 00:36:56.329 --> 00:36:58.869 don't get them, that puts you in a really tough spot, right? 699 00:36:58.909 --> 00:37:00.269 Because a lot of times you can now get them 700 00:37:00.329 --> 00:37:02.889 for another reason. A lot of people set big goals 701 00:37:02.929 --> 00:37:05.659 right before COVID hit and they did not make them, um, 702 00:37:06.849 --> 00:37:08.889 And should they walk around feeling like they didn't reach 703 00:37:08.949 --> 00:37:13.349 their goal or is there another way? And the idea 704 00:37:13.369 --> 00:37:16.710 of completely surrendering to the process and not having any 705 00:37:16.789 --> 00:37:21.429 North Star out there to me seems equally sort of, 706 00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:23.719 I don't know that the score will always take care 707 00:37:23.739 --> 00:37:27.019 of itself. The way I would think about it is, 708 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.820 I guess, what is the directional goal? How can you 709 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:36.909 define your directional goal? Don't, you know, not... being, being, 710 00:37:37.389 --> 00:37:42.639 not being specific, but being specific enough to say that 711 00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.280 you kind of want to be in this neighborhood. You 712 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:48.820 want to be, give yourself some wiggle room, but, and 713 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:50.949 it kind of connects back to some of that sort 714 00:37:50.969 --> 00:37:55.969 of complexity conversation we were having earlier, because the world's really, 715 00:37:56.530 --> 00:37:58.309 the world is really complex. You can't know what's going 716 00:37:58.329 --> 00:38:02.170 to happen, but you can move in a certain direction, um, 717 00:38:03.309 --> 00:38:05.349 And one way to think about it too is with this, 718 00:38:05.710 --> 00:38:07.929 there's another idea that I know Jay Hennessey talks about 719 00:38:07.969 --> 00:38:11.650 a lot, which is commander's intent, team intent, this idea 720 00:38:11.690 --> 00:38:13.730 that you

sort of define an end state that you 721 00:38:13.769 --> 00:38:17.869 want to get to. And that end state can be 722 00:38:18.730 --> 00:38:22.610 reasonably precise, but it's not 100% precise. It's more like 723 00:38:22.659 --> 00:38:25.980 a situation you want to be in. I want to 724 00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:31.469 be in a situation where I'm more comfortable financially. That's, that's, 725 00:38:31.650 --> 00:38:34.369 that is sort of a directional goal that we can feel. 726 00:38:34.429 --> 00:38:36.219 I want to be in a situation where I'm, I'm 727 00:38:36.260 --> 00:38:38.659 just traveling a little bit less and more connected to 728 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:41.639 the family. Okay. Sort of, sort of define that end 729 00:38:41.659 --> 00:38:45.699 state and move in that direction without having it be 730 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:48.340 sort of this, you know, sort of Damocles that is 731 00:38:48.409 --> 00:38:50.849 over your head that if you don't get it, life is, uh, 732 00:38:51.329 --> 00:38:52.329 life is difficult. 733 00:38:52.590 --> 00:38:54.210 Like is the goal of the guardians to win the 734 00:38:54.230 --> 00:38:57.610 world series every year? Does that a stated written down goal? 735 00:38:58.260 --> 00:38:59.880 It is, it is that, that is a goal. 736 00:38:59.940 --> 00:39:00.480 That is a goal. 737 00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:04.179 And, and again, that's, that's a hard goal to have. That's, that's, 738 00:39:04.659 --> 00:39:08.070 it's good to have out there. But the deeper goal, 739 00:39:08.789 --> 00:39:10.809 the deeper purpose of the team is to inspire and 740 00:39:10.869 --> 00:39:15.469 unite the city with the power of team. That's the purpose. 741 00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:19.570 Are we doing that? That's more directional. That's more all encompassing. 742 00:39:20.349 --> 00:39:24.079 And maybe, you know, another, another point to make here, 743 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:27.190 I think is that you should have a lot of, 744 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:32.320 I think, Having several different things. There's this idea that 745 00:39:32.380 --> 00:39:34.239 purpose and goal and mission, we should just have one 746 00:39:34.280 --> 00:39:36.880 statement and that's it. Kind of a Jack Welch, like, 747 00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.260 if we're not this, we're bad. 748 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:41.280 We're not playing in that market if we're not one 749 00:39:41.300 --> 00:39:42.030 or two or whatever. 750 00:39:42.250 --> 00:39:48.230 Exactly, exactly. And what I see with other successful groups 751 00:39:48.289 --> 00:39:51.570 is that they sort of have an a whole constellation 752 00:39:51.929 --> 00:39:54.389 of things they're moving toward, right? Are we moving toward 753 00:39:54.429 --> 00:39:57.119 winning the World Series? Yes. Are we moving toward inspiring 754 00:39:57.139 --> 00:39:59.300 and uniting our city with the power of team? Yes. 755 00:39:59.659 --> 00:40:02.900 And so this idea of maybe you want to think 756 00:40:02.940 --> 00:40:05.460 in terms of a multiplicity of things, not just kind 757 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:06.760 of like one big thing. 758 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:10.110 I saw Russell Wilson's press conference when he signed with 759 00:40:10.130 --> 00:40:13.170 the Broncos. I'm paraphrasing, so this isn't a quote, but 760 00:40:13.230 --> 00:40:15.690 essentially it was like, I want to play for a 761 00:40:15.750 --> 00:40:18.869 decade here, and I hope we win three or four 762 00:40:18.909 --> 00:40:22.630 Super Bowls. Or my plan or my goal is to 763 00:40:22.670 --> 00:40:25.309 win three or four Super Bowls. Is that like a 764 00:40:25.369 --> 00:40:27.570 win the press conference thing? I mean, what do you 765 00:40:27.610 --> 00:40:29.269 think about it? Because my thing is, if you're going 766 00:40:29.289 --> 00:40:31.110 to play 10 years and your goal is to win 767 00:40:31.130 --> 00:40:34.329 a Super Bowl, why not 10 Super Bowls? Or why 768 00:40:34.369 --> 00:40:36.710 not not have Super Bowl as a goal? I found 769 00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:39.429 that kind of bizarre, like three or four. And I 770 00:40:39.449 --> 00:40:41.449 think that part is a direct quote, three or four. 771 00:40:42.050 --> 00:40:43.210 And I want to play here for a decade. 772 00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:43.590 I don't know. 773 00:40:43.630 --> 00:40:45.530 That part of it to me, maybe I'm too focused 774 00:40:45.590 --> 00:40:46.989 on this and I should just let it go. But 775 00:40:47.739 --> 00:40:50.219 I do think about this as the direction of thinking 776 00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.860 about how to, how to kind of proceed and looking 777 00:40:53.909 --> 00:40:56.349 at people who have done really well, which he has, 778 00:40:56.969 --> 00:40:59.190 is that, can I learn something from that? 779 00:40:59.969 --> 00:41:04.409 Right, right. Boy, I, I, I, I, I tend to agree. 780 00:41:04.469 --> 00:41:05.829 Like if you're going to, if you're going to put 781 00:41:05.869 --> 00:41:07.619 it out there, you know, you may as well just 782 00:41:07.699 --> 00:41:10.860 go for it three or four times as hard as 10. 783 00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:14.480 in some ways. Um, and, and yeah, if you're going 784 00:41:14.500 --> 00:41:17.570 to be specific, be real super specific. And if you're not, don't, 785 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:18.019 you know. 786 00:41:18.409 --> 00:41:19.889 I don't know. I mean, I may be harping on 787 00:41:19.929 --> 00:41:21.630 a little point, but, but I, and I know this 788 00:41:21.650 --> 00:41:23.190 is like out of the culture thing, but I just, 789 00:41:23.210 --> 00:41:25.690 it just, I think this is something cause it's a, 790 00:41:25.750 --> 00:41:27.710 it's a, it's a more of a philosophy on kind 791 00:41:27.750 --> 00:41:29.949 of life and living than it is just on the 792 00:41:29.989 --> 00:41:32.690 specifics of goals of like, what direction are we headed? 793 00:41:32.710 --> 00:41:36.840 And that's why, like most things, life is

messy and 794 00:41:36.889 --> 00:41:39.610 life is not black and white. It's really gray. And 795 00:41:39.690 --> 00:41:42.550 so I think it's, it's, it behooves us to live 796 00:41:42.710 --> 00:41:46.590 in the gray and understand the nuance of all of 797 00:41:46.630 --> 00:41:48.489 this stuff, as opposed to just being like, it's either 798 00:41:48.550 --> 00:41:51.559 that way or it's that way. Most things, not everything, 799 00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:54.659 but most things doesn't work like that. It's not just 800 00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:57.420 here or there, especially in the world where I feel 801 00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.510 like some of us, like, or not some of us, 802 00:41:59.539 --> 00:42:01.559 but like the world where it's heading, where it's like 803 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:04.239 tribal and over here, over here. I don't like that. 804 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:05.769 I mean, I, I like to think I'm more of 805 00:42:05.809 --> 00:42:09.289 a curious, independent thinker where there are some times, yeah, okay, 806 00:42:09.349 --> 00:42:12.070 I'm with you here. And other times I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, 807 00:42:12.110 --> 00:42:14.920 I'm with you here. But that doesn't seem to always 808 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:17.920 work today with the tribes that are set out. 809 00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:22.639 So true. That's so true. Right. And again, I think 810 00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:24.579 the world is in the grace. That's exactly right. What 811 00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:27.380 if Wilson had said, hey, I just promise you that 812 00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:29.300 I'm going to get better every day. I'm going to 813 00:42:29.340 --> 00:42:30.969 do everything I can to get a little bit better 814 00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:31.829 tomorrow than I am today. 815 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:34.730 Which he will. We know he will. That's the type 816 00:42:34.789 --> 00:42:38.630 of guy he is. I don't know. Anyway, but I 817 00:42:38.670 --> 00:42:41.789 do think words matter. I think from a leadership perspective, 818 00:42:42.409 --> 00:42:46.480 words matter. Whether you're a parent, a spouse, a CEO, 819 00:42:46.659 --> 00:42:49.260 you're running something, we do need to be mindful of 820 00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:54.699 what we're saying. Speaking of that, one of my all-time 821 00:42:54.739 --> 00:43:01.079 favorite quotes, Danny Meyer, business like life. is all about 822 00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:05.000 how you make people feel. It's that simple. And it's 823 00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.719 that hard. I've seen, I just love that quote. It's 824 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:11.719 so true. What you spend a lot of time with 825 00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:15.039 Danny Meyer, you covered him and, uh, setting the table 826 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.289 by him is another great book. Um, what are, what 827 00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:20.090 are some of the things like the key learnings you 828 00:43:20.110 --> 00:43:21.889 took away from your time with Danny Meyer? 829 00:43:23.050 -->

00:43:25.670 Boy, he is, he, he combines, I mean, just to 830 00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:28.349 give a little context on him. I mean, he started out, he's, 831 00:43:29.070 --> 00:43:31.659 Guy out of St. Louis. His dad was in sort 832 00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:34.880 of in the hospitality industry a little bit. Had a 833 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:38.639 huge falling out like like with his with his father 834 00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.340 at some point and started his own restaurants in the 835 00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:47.880 mid 80s. And, you know, kind of fitfully, kind of slowly, 836 00:43:48.199 --> 00:43:48.900 kind of slowly. 837 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:51.119 I think. 838 00:43:52.010 --> 00:43:54.090 You know, when I think about his leadership style, it 839 00:43:54.130 --> 00:43:56.469 sort of is captured in this story of how he grew. 840 00:43:56.489 --> 00:43:59.190 You know, he had one restaurant open. It was very successful. 841 00:43:59.210 --> 00:44:01.329 Then he had a second one and they both started 842 00:44:01.349 --> 00:44:03.150 to fail because when he could be in the room, 843 00:44:03.210 --> 00:44:06.139 he could control the culture like a lot of leaders, right? 844 00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:09.619 People knew how to position the salt shaker on the 845 00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:12.260 table because that's how Danny did it. They could see him, right? 846 00:44:12.659 --> 00:44:14.840 But all of a sudden he couldn't be in two 847 00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:18.599 restaurants at once. And both restaurants started to go downhill. 848 00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:22.130 In fact, they had a waiter who insult a customer, 849 00:44:22.429 --> 00:44:25.429 the customer, like didn't like the salmon and the waiter 850 00:44:25.610 --> 00:44:27.590 argued with the customer, like, no, no, this is how 851 00:44:27.610 --> 00:44:29.889 the salmon is supposed to be like, you're wrong. This 852 00:44:29.969 --> 00:44:33.730 is this salmon is delicious. And he realized I've got 853 00:44:33.750 --> 00:44:36.329 a problem here. Right. And so he closed both his 854 00:44:36.389 --> 00:44:38.969 restaurants for a time. And then went off and started 855 00:44:38.989 --> 00:44:44.239 like trying to make his values explicit building what it 856 00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:47.099 went later would be called a mantra map. Like he 857 00:44:47.139 --> 00:44:50.860 figured out true North, was about creating raves. Talk about 858 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:55.619 the use of language. Creating raves. Not serving good food, 859 00:44:55.719 --> 00:45:00.000 not making money, not being successful, not a goal of 860 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:02.579 being a three-star Michelin. That would have been one, right? 861 00:45:03.260 --> 00:45:04.780 This is an example of what we were talking about. 862 00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:09.409 Creating raves. That's what he wants. Is that a specific goal? Yes, 863 00:45:09.949 --> 00:45:12.510 it is. It's pretty specific. Like, are we creating raves 864 00:45:12.650 --> 00:45:15.650 or not? Is that a rave or is that just 865 00:45:15.730 --> 00:45:18.960 like good reviews? And so that ended up being this 866 00:45:19.059 --> 00:45:22.039 North star that was incredibly effective with him. So really what, 867 00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:25.699 and then he built all these other corny mantras, corny 868 00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:32.869 catchphrases like athletic hospitality, the excellence reflex. This was my 869 00:45:32.909 --> 00:45:38.610 favorite one. Mistakes are waves. Servers are surfers. That's stupid, 870 00:45:39.030 --> 00:45:41.289 but it's also kind of genius. Like there's a mistake. 871 00:45:41.690 --> 00:45:43.329 It's an up, it's a wave. You have to surf 872 00:45:43.349 --> 00:45:46.940 the wave. Um, The road to success is paved with 873 00:45:47.050 --> 00:45:51.269 mistakes well handled. Isn't that good? Like he's got a 874 00:45:51.409 --> 00:45:53.670 billion of them and he used them to kind of 875 00:45:53.789 --> 00:45:56.989 train and orient the culture in this really explicit way. 876 00:45:57.409 --> 00:46:00.719 His use of language, I think, is really sets him apart. 877 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.920 Like he's continually trying to come up with more. I 878 00:46:03.940 --> 00:46:06.559 was in his office and his whiteboard had all kinds 879 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:11.449 of weird sayings about like bridges and monsters. And most 880 00:46:11.489 --> 00:46:13.679 of them, it was like, I sort of thought it 881 00:46:13.699 --> 00:46:16.679 felt like being in the office of like a country 882 00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:21.300 singer in Nashville trying to write country song, right? Because 883 00:46:21.340 --> 00:46:22.800 it's got to have a truck. It's got to have 884 00:46:22.820 --> 00:46:25.880 a dog. It's got to be raining. Like that's what 885 00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.840 he's doing in his culture. He's writing songs really as 886 00:46:28.900 --> 00:46:31.360 a way to think of it. Like culture is this 887 00:46:32.099 --> 00:46:35.219 kind of musical relationship people have with each other where 888 00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:39.320 they're picking up patterns and following models and kind of 889 00:46:39.420 --> 00:46:42.400 chasing some North Star. And he's really good at that music. 890 00:46:42.650 --> 00:46:46.369 And I think that's an important quality in leadership. The 891 00:46:46.429 --> 00:46:50.550 other thing that he's got is he takes his time. 892 00:46:50.949 --> 00:46:54.070 Like when you're with him, you are the only person 893 00:46:54.570 --> 00:47:00.590 in the world. He thinks really deeply before he answers. 894 00:47:00.849 --> 00:47:04.210 And he also answers in ways that are like disarmingly 895 00:47:04.730 --> 00:47:08.829 personal and real. Like there's a time, and I've never 896 00:47:08.869 --> 00:47:11.530 talked about this before, so maybe it'll come off as 897 00:47:11.570 --> 00:47:17.869 kind of strange, but when he finally like got, he, I, 898

00:47:18.250 --> 00:47:20.550 he talked about the process of bringing his team together 899 00:47:20.570 --> 00:47:22.909 and starting to build this mantra map and making these 900 00:47:22.949 --> 00:47:25.170 things explicit. And I asked him, and this is back 901 00:47:25.210 --> 00:47:27.809 in the beginning of his career. And I'm like, how 902 00:47:27.829 --> 00:47:29.969 did that feel for you? Like to, to sort of 903 00:47:30.230 --> 00:47:32.949 crack that code or to sort of figure that out together. 904 00:47:32.989 --> 00:47:36.139 He goes, he goes, it felt like taking a really 905 00:47:36.179 --> 00:47:40.699 good shit. That's what he said. That's what he said. 906 00:47:40.719 --> 00:47:44.110 And it was just like, Are you kidding me? Like 907 00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:47.539 that is the craziest thing to say, but that's what 908 00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:51.099 he said. And I kind of really admire him for 909 00:47:51.139 --> 00:47:58.679 it because he really does kind of make himself very 910 00:47:58.820 --> 00:48:01.820 present in the moment in a way that a lot 911 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:05.599 of leaders could have answered that a million different ways. 912 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:09.989 But he is very mindful. There's something kind of Buddhist 913 00:48:10.050 --> 00:48:15.460 about his his alertness, his attention, and kind of the 914 00:48:15.539 --> 00:48:20.360 patient way he is with you. It's kind of magical. 915 00:48:20.380 --> 00:48:21.789 He's really an amazing guy. 916 00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:25.940 How do you get that to permeate throughout, especially as 917 00:48:26.019 --> 00:48:30.719 an organization grows? And sometimes these places maybe have a 918 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:34.909 cult-like feel, which I know is a little meta considering culture, 919 00:48:34.969 --> 00:48:39.739 but that part of when it's small, and you have 920 00:48:39.820 --> 00:48:44.150 kind of direct influence over most or everybody, I feel 921 00:48:44.170 --> 00:48:46.969 like it's probably much easier. But then as you grow 922 00:48:46.989 --> 00:48:50.050 and there's multiple locations and people are everywhere and you 923 00:48:50.090 --> 00:48:52.570 can't be everywhere all the time, how does that grow 924 00:48:52.670 --> 00:48:58.420 beyond kind of your individual sphere of influence beyond and 925 00:48:58.460 --> 00:48:59.539 have like ripple effects? 926 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:02.340 A few thoughts. First of all, it kind of doesn't. 927 00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:05.159 You don't have a monoculture when you get past a 928 00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:07.920 certain size. And so what you do have instead is 929 00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:12.019 a bunch of little ecosystems, a bunch of little microcultures 930 00:49:12.019 --> 00:49:15.710 that exist. And Danny and others are comfortable with that. 931 00:49:15.710 --> 00:49:18.610 Like they realize, hey, it shouldn't all feel the same. 932 00:49:18.829 --> 00:49:21.050 Like this restaurant's going to be different than that restaurant. 933 00:49:21.070 --> 00:49:22.949 This team's going to be different than that team. And 934 00:49:22.969 --> 00:49:25.909 that's actually a strength. That's actually kind of a good, 935 00:49:25.949 --> 00:49:27.909 healthy thing. They should have their own mantras. They should 936 00:49:27.949 --> 00:49:30.610 have their own models. They should have their own way 937 00:49:30.650 --> 00:49:36.489 of doing things. So that's one. the only thing that 938 00:49:36.530 --> 00:49:39.969 really scales in culture is this idea of purpose and 939 00:49:40.030 --> 00:49:43.710 North Star. And so they end up really often doubling 940 00:49:43.750 --> 00:49:47.090 down and being very explicit and creating a lot of 941 00:49:47.150 --> 00:49:51.010 conversations around purpose, around what are we here to do? 942 00:49:52.289 --> 00:49:55.230 Because the other things, a lot of elements of culture 943 00:49:55.289 --> 00:50:00.010 are relational and relationships don't scale. Like, yeah, I'm sure 944 00:50:00.050 --> 00:50:04.619 people that work at Tesla feel like they know Elon Musk, 945 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.829 but you know what? If he did something, that relationship 946 00:50:07.889 --> 00:50:10.610 isn't real. That a lot of people at Theranos felt 947 00:50:10.650 --> 00:50:13.730 like they really knew Elizabeth Holmes. They didn't. They can't. 948 00:50:13.929 --> 00:50:16.719 You can only know a hundred or so people. So 949 00:50:18.500 --> 00:50:23.099 that's where I think Danny Meyer's attention to language, that's 950 00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:25.619 why it's so important because that's the way in which 951 00:50:26.099 --> 00:50:29.510 he can't know these people but he can create a 952 00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:33.929 shared fabric of meaning and understanding on which they're operating. 953 00:50:35.369 --> 00:50:39.690 Like he came up with this word skunking, which is when, 954 00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:44.170 if something goes wrong, you sort of get angry and 955 00:50:44.210 --> 00:50:47.989 resentful and sort of create a foul atmosphere in the room, 956 00:50:48.050 --> 00:50:52.179 sort of like a skunk spraying. And by defining that 957 00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:55.280 and making it part of the language, like what's going on. 958 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:59.449 Oh yeah. That, that, that whole, all the dishwashers are 959 00:50:59.469 --> 00:51:04.039 skunking right now. Okay. We've just taken a situation that 960 00:51:04.059 --> 00:51:08.519 could be interpreted a million different ways. It's totally ambiguous. Maybe, 961 00:51:08.659 --> 00:51:10.460 you know, there's a million ways to explain it. And, 962 00:51:10.699 --> 00:51:15.650 and he created language for it. And therefore, you know, words, 963 00:51:16.030 --> 00:51:18.710 words are really, really powerful. And I think that is 964 00:51:18.789 --> 00:51:24.909 where you can not exactly exert control over a growing 965 00:51:24.969 --> 00:51:27.570

organization but you can kind of define the direction of 966 00:51:27.630 --> 00:51:30.849 its travel you can sort of say here's here's where 967 00:51:30.889 --> 00:51:32.670 we should be going and here's where we shouldn't be 968 00:51:32.690 --> 00:51:36.159 going i can create it's like those poles of energy 969 00:51:36.380 --> 00:51:39.659 right where you've got positive over here negative here let's 970 00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:42.739 define those poles in language and then we can our 971 00:51:42.780 --> 00:51:44.039 group can navigate that. 972 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:47.449 Better yeah Okay, we didn't bring it up last time 973 00:51:47.469 --> 00:51:50.150 we talked, but again, I was rereading it, and just 974 00:51:50.530 --> 00:51:52.750 the billion-dollar day when nothing happened, it's just too good 975 00:51:52.769 --> 00:51:54.880 of a story. I want to just go over it 976 00:51:54.909 --> 00:51:57.389 real quick before, and then I have some notes here 977 00:51:57.550 --> 00:52:01.900 on actions to take from the culture playbook. I just 978 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:04.159 think of the quote, these ads suck, the note that 979 00:52:04.199 --> 00:52:07.320 Larry Page wrote and hung up on the wall about 980 00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:10.840 Google AdWords. Can you talk to me about the day 981 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:14.480 when Larry Page wrote that note And it became the 982 00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:18.920 billion dollar day when nothing happened, when this quiet, skinny 983 00:52:19.179 --> 00:52:23.460 engineer named Jeff Dean saw that and decided to do 984 00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:24.230 something about it. 985 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:26.739 Yeah. Yeah. There was this huge race. It was kind 986 00:52:26.760 --> 00:52:28.980 of like the moon, you know, race for the moon 987 00:52:29.019 --> 00:52:32.469 or something between all these companies in the early 2000s. 988 00:52:32.820 --> 00:52:37.849 And the race was who could combine effective ads with 989 00:52:37.969 --> 00:52:40.849 internet search terms, right? Like if you could If you 990 00:52:40.869 --> 00:52:44.039 could do that, you could open up this massive advertising market. 991 00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:48.300 And there was a company in existence named Overture that had, 992 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:51.699 they actually, they were way ahead. If it was the 993 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:56.090 moon launch, they had already launched satellites. They had some 994 00:52:56.150 --> 00:52:59.469 people who had invented the software on which these early 995 00:52:59.530 --> 00:53:02.849 efforts were based. They had tons of venture capital money, 996 00:53:03.010 --> 00:53:06.960 tons of resources, huge campus, and If you had to 997 00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:09.360 bet on who was going to crack this first and 998 00:53:09.940 --> 00:53:11.780 optimize it and maximize it, it was going to be 999 00:53:11.800 --> 00:53:15.179 this company Overture. And over here you had a hundred 1000 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:18.179 or so people working at this startup called Google with 1001 00:53:18.199 --> 00:53:20.280 a guy named Larry Page, who was in charge at 1002 00:53:20.300 --> 00:53:23.110 the time. And they were also trying to do this 1003 00:53:23.210 --> 00:53:26.590 on a, on a kind of a shoestring sort of situation, 1004 00:53:26.610 --> 00:53:30.730 you know, with gum and chewing gum and wire. And 1005 00:53:31.230 --> 00:53:33.909 they had an early effort where you would, you would 1006 00:53:34.110 --> 00:53:38.030 post a search, and then it would show the ads 1007 00:53:38.110 --> 00:53:41.559 that this search generated. And so Larry Page looked at 1008 00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:44.219 that and they were bad. And so he printed out 1009 00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:48.199 the bad ads, poorly matched ads, and he wrote in 1010 00:53:48.320 --> 00:53:51.980 big letters, these ads suck, and posted it in the 1011 00:53:52.019 --> 00:53:54.150 dining room, in the kitchen where everybody could see it. 1012 00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.119 And there was a guy working there named Jeff Dean, 1013 00:53:57.369 --> 00:53:59.670 and he wasn't even working on the AdWords project. He's 1014 00:53:59.710 --> 00:54:03.750 working on a completely different project. But that signal inside 1015 00:54:03.769 --> 00:54:07.239 that culture, that you know, honesty about it. That's sort 1016 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:10.199 of Danny Meyer, like here's what's really going on. Like 1017 00:54:10.539 --> 00:54:12.340 it would have been really easy for Larry Page to 1018 00:54:12.360 --> 00:54:15.389 be like, well, that's a good try guys. You know, 1019 00:54:15.429 --> 00:54:17.130 let's try to be a little bit better next time. 1020 00:54:17.170 --> 00:54:21.409 Good luck. But instead he did this extraordinary transparent thing, 1021 00:54:22.030 --> 00:54:25.320 which is, you know, pretty, pretty honest sort of say 1022 00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:27.539 these really, this is, this sucks. This isn't where we 1023 00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:31.900 want to go. And that signal sort of activated something 1024 00:54:32.059 --> 00:54:35.179 in Jeff Dean. And this is where you get to that, again, 1025 00:54:35.239 --> 00:54:39.840 that sort of complexity thing. You can't plan for these 1026 00:54:39.900 --> 00:54:42.679 sorts of moments. You can't treat them as linear cause 1027 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:46.780 and effect. You have to send out signals and attractors 1028 00:54:46.840 --> 00:54:49.239 and see what happens. And that's exactly what Larry Page did. 1029 00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:51.739 He sent out this thing and Jeff Dean saw it 1030 00:54:52.179 --> 00:54:54.440 and then spent two nights trying to fix it. And 1031 00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:57.079 he did fix it. And he invented, he had such 1032 00:54:57.260 --> 00:55:01.530 breakthroughs that it became the basis of Google's kind of 1033 00:55:01.550 --> 00:55:04.130 their entire business, really their entire, they're an advert, they're 1034

00:55:04.150 --> 00:55:07.630 an advertising company, like so many, so many, that's how 1035 00:55:07.690 --> 00:55:11.869 they make money is with surveillance advertising. And that's, that 1036 00:55:11.929 --> 00:55:15.639 was the moment and nobody assigned it to Jeff Dean. 1037 00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:20.159 You know, nobody knew he was working on it. He, 1038 00:55:20.219 --> 00:55:23.400 it wasn't part of his job. Like it was just 1039 00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:26.570 a day. It was just a day. with the sign 1040 00:55:26.590 --> 00:55:29.269 in the kitchen and somebody who was curious to go 1041 00:55:29.309 --> 00:55:31.369 back to your earlier point somebody was curious enough to 1042 00:55:31.409 --> 00:55:33.769 say i wonder if that kind of that kind of 1043 00:55:33.809 --> 00:55:35.570 connects to something i'm working on let me let me 1044 00:55:35.590 --> 00:55:38.380 give that a shot what the heck and ends up 1045 00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:41.880 changing the history of you know really of uh of 1046 00:55:42.139 --> 00:55:44.599 technology in america and the world. 1047 00:55:44.860 --> 00:55:47.079 How about when he's asked about it after the fact 1048 00:55:47.139 --> 00:55:49.440 he can hardly even remember he's like oh oh yeah 1049 00:55:49.460 --> 00:55:50.940 yeah like it was like not that big of a 1050 00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:53.090 deal it's like it's just another that's just what we 1051 00:55:53.110 --> 00:55:54.679 do or that's just what i do like It wasn't 1052 00:55:54.760 --> 00:55:57.170 fake humility. It was just genuine like, oh, yeah, like 1053 00:55:57.889 --> 00:56:00.349 he didn't even fully realize of what he'd done. 1054 00:56:00.369 --> 00:56:03.469 That's right. That's right. And I think that's how if 1055 00:56:03.510 --> 00:56:05.829 you talk to Navy SEALs after a successful mission or 1056 00:56:05.849 --> 00:56:08.300 you talk to people at Danny Meyer's restaurant or you 1057 00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:10.840 talk to anybody, there is this sense that you have 1058 00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:13.380 in a culture of I'm part of this bigger thing. 1059 00:56:13.460 --> 00:56:16.300 I'm playing my role. It's not me, me, me, me, me. 1060 00:56:16.820 --> 00:56:22.150 It's this– this dynamic between people. And it's, it's, it's 1061 00:56:22.190 --> 00:56:23.690 really cool when you see it. And I think a 1062 00:56:23.730 --> 00:56:25.869 lot of us have felt it at one time or another, like, 1063 00:56:26.469 --> 00:56:27.849 you know, if you made a great play in your 1064 00:56:27.869 --> 00:56:31.050 football career, you wouldn't say, look at my great play. 1065 00:56:31.090 --> 00:56:34.380 You'd say, Oh, great blocking. That guy ran a great route. 1066 00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:38.059 We had the right play call. All of these things 1067 00:56:38.139 --> 00:56:42.039 came together and, and that's what creates great group performance 1068 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:46.320 and tuning into those connections and those kind of subtle 1069 00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:48.380 feelings of like, Hey, this is just another day. And 1070 00:56:48.420 --> 00:56:50.619 it feels, it feels good to do that. I mean, 1071 00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:53.059 that's why Jeff Dean did it because it felt cool 1072 00:56:53.179 --> 00:56:54.820 and it felt good. And he felt like he could 1073 00:56:54.860 --> 00:56:55.159 have an impact. 1074 00:56:55.880 --> 00:56:59.320 And he was curious, right? Like, like a superpower of 1075 00:56:59.380 --> 00:57:01.800 a trait when looking at a hire, I don't see 1076 00:57:01.940 --> 00:57:05.699 many jobs where if you have a genuine intellectual curiosity 1077 00:57:05.739 --> 00:57:09.860 to perhaps solve a problem, that is, is a, it's 1078 00:57:09.889 --> 00:57:12.849 just a top of the list when I'm looking for somebody. 1079 00:57:13.230 --> 00:57:16.230 for most, most roles, certainly for the role that he had. Okay. 1080 00:57:16.510 --> 00:57:19.320 The culture playbook. I want to focus on a few 1081 00:57:19.780 --> 00:57:23.179 actions for people to take. One I want you to 1082 00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:28.000 expand on is scheduling regular tune-ups. What does it mean 1083 00:57:28.059 --> 00:57:30.159 to schedule a regular tune-up? 1084 00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:31.000 Yeah. 1085 00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:31.840 Yeah. 1086 00:57:31.860 --> 00:57:33.659 When you got, you know, we have this, this world 1087 00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:36.320 we're living in where it's just all about productivity, where 1088 00:57:36.340 --> 00:57:38.440 it's like, we have a project to do. We're always 1089 00:57:38.460 --> 00:57:41.619 put on teams. We're always trying to move that workflow forward. 1090 00:57:42.329 --> 00:57:45.869 Build our workflows for maximum productivity, optimize and maximize. And 1091 00:57:45.909 --> 00:57:50.250 a team tune-up is when you say, stop. How are 1092 00:57:50.289 --> 00:57:55.030 we doing? What is exciting us most about this? It 1093 00:57:55.349 --> 00:57:57.530 was sort of a Jeff Dean moment. What are we 1094 00:57:57.590 --> 00:58:01.210 curious about right now? How can I help the team 1095 00:58:01.269 --> 00:58:03.090 work better? What am I doing wrong? What am I 1096 00:58:03.110 --> 00:58:05.190 doing right? What are we doing wrong? What are we 1097 00:58:05.230 --> 00:58:07.710 doing right? There's a woman named Roshi Gavechi, who I've 1098 00:58:07.730 --> 00:58:10.989 written about, who worked at IDEO. And she was... a 1099 00:58:11.090 --> 00:58:13.030 genius at this, they would bring her in to kind 1100 00:58:13.050 --> 00:58:16.010 of stop teams and tune them up. And she would 1101 00:58:16.030 --> 00:58:19.699 just ask these really simple, simple question, like, like, what 1102 00:58:19.739 --> 00:58:22.400 are you, what are you most excited to learn? And 1103 00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:25.000 just pausing and doing that, that sort of a tune up. 1104 00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:28.360 And we've talked about a little bit earlier, this IDEO

model, 1105 00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:30.159 I think is the most powerful way to do that, 1106 00:58:30.260 --> 00:58:34.199 where you do a pre-flight, a mid-flight and a post-flight. 1107 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.260 And that moment, and they give a few ideas in 1108 00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:40.010 the books on how to do it, but my, I 1109 00:58:40.030 --> 00:58:43.789 think my favorite ones are mortems. Like if you do 1110 00:58:43.829 --> 00:58:48.590 a pre-mortem and a post-mortem. And the pre-mortem would be 1111 00:58:48.610 --> 00:58:51.130 in the pre-flight where you would ask the team, if 1112 00:58:51.269 --> 00:58:54.500 this fails, if this just goes off the rails and 1113 00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:57.840 we completely fail and we're two years into the future 1114 00:58:57.860 --> 00:59:00.300 or one year into the future, what will we look 1115 00:59:00.340 --> 00:59:02.480 back and say, well, that's the cause of it? What 1116 00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:05.780 caused it? Like if we fail, what caused it? And 1117 00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:08.409 that is such a cool question because it actually makes 1118 00:59:08.469 --> 00:59:11.059 you like all good questions. It makes you zoom out 1119 00:59:11.559 --> 00:59:14.159 and see yourself from a, from a different higher perspective 1120 00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:18.030 and say, oh yeah, if we don't like work with 1121 00:59:18.050 --> 00:59:21.750 these three other departments on this rollout, it's not, it's 1122 00:59:21.789 --> 00:59:23.530 not going to, we're not going to make it, you know, 1123 00:59:23.969 --> 00:59:27.369 it gives you a view of the barriers you face. 1124 00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:30.559 And in the world today, like we tend to focus 1125 00:59:30.579 --> 00:59:32.039 a lot on our goals and we tend to focus 1126 00:59:32.059 --> 00:59:34.400 a lot on our skills and we naturally focus a 1127 00:59:34.460 --> 00:59:38.610 lot on ourselves. And that question zooming out and saying, 1128 00:59:38.909 --> 00:59:42.269 let's define the barriers that we face and creating that, 1129 00:59:42.590 --> 00:59:47.250 that situational awareness, let's call it like every good athlete, 1130 00:59:47.289 --> 00:59:50.110 every good team has great situational awareness and asking that 1131 00:59:50.230 --> 00:59:54.039 premortem question gives you that. And then there's the postmortem 1132 00:59:54.059 --> 00:59:55.780 at the end where you say, all right, let's break 1133 00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:58.139 this down a little bit. Let's, Let's talk about what 1134 00:59:58.159 --> 01:00:00.139 went well, what didn't go well and what we should 1135 01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:00.460 do different. 1136 01:00:01.079 --> 01:00:03.619 Yep. So much learning. I love going back. For example, 1137 01:00:03.639 --> 01:00:07.340 when I do like off sites, um, I regularly go 1138 01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:09.260 back and look at the notes of the, of the 1139 01:00:09.340 --> 01:00:11.679 pre and post of what were we trying to do? 1140 01:00:11.719 --> 01:00:13.610 And then the posts as well as feedback from the 1141 01:00:13.650 --> 01:00:17.269 people who attended years of worth of those that I 1142 01:00:17.349 --> 01:00:19.949 look back on. It's so helpful. Like in the moment 1143 01:00:19.989 --> 01:00:22.849 you get a document, what happened? What, what, well, what didn't, 1144 01:00:23.090 --> 01:00:24.010 how are we feeling? 1145 01:00:24.070 --> 01:00:24.230 Right. 1146 01:00:24.309 --> 01:00:26.610 That type of thing in the moment. is when you 1147 01:00:26.670 --> 01:00:28.590 document it so that you'll be able to use that 1148 01:00:28.869 --> 01:00:30.429 for a long time. It's really good. 1149 01:00:31.469 --> 01:00:34.059 Jack Nicklaus used to do his, he'd shoot around a 1150 01:00:34.099 --> 01:00:36.800 golf and he would immediately go to the practice range. 1151 01:00:37.820 --> 01:00:40.800 Why is that? Because exactly what you just described. That 1152 01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:44.320 is where you have your most effective practice because your 1153 01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:49.710 mistakes and successes are freshest in your mind. You remember 1154 01:00:49.789 --> 01:00:52.590 what it felt like. And that immediacy is super important. 1155 01:00:53.329 --> 01:00:58.510 Trust, building trust. The foundation for any relationship, Dan, obviously 1156 01:00:58.570 --> 01:01:01.769 is that we trust each other and it's critical in 1157 01:01:01.789 --> 01:01:05.829 an excellent culture. What are some of the playbooks, the 1158 01:01:05.869 --> 01:01:09.519 plays from this book that we can implement in order 1159 01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:13.739 to build trust? One, if let's say we're still like 1160 01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:16.579 in the early stages and maybe even two, maybe it's 1161 01:01:16.599 --> 01:01:19.949 been broken before. Maybe we've messed up. What are some 1162 01:01:19.969 --> 01:01:20.690 things that we can do? 1163 01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:25.400 Yeah, signaling fallibility is really important. We tend not to 1164 01:01:25.440 --> 01:01:28.679 do that in our life because we don't like risk. 1165 01:01:28.719 --> 01:01:31.989 We don't like exposure. And yet, especially for leaders, especially 1166 01:01:32.030 --> 01:01:35.769 for any position of authority, that moment of saying, hey, 1167 01:01:36.889 --> 01:01:39.510 here's where I need your help. Here's what I don't know. 1168 01:01:39.590 --> 01:01:41.800 Here's where this is weak. I need you to poke 1169 01:01:41.820 --> 01:01:44.840 some holes in this. Like, help me out here. It's 1170 01:01:44.900 --> 01:01:47.199 such a small signal, but it's such a powerful signal 1171 01:01:47.219 --> 01:01:51.570 because it gives everybody permission to dig in together. and 1172 01:01:51.869 --> 01:01:54.210 actually expose the weakness. We have such a bias to 1173 01:01:54.269 --> 01:01:56.739 hide our own weaknesses and to hide our team weaknesses. 1174 01:01:57.159 --> 01:01:59.739 And we finish a project and

it's very tempting just 1175 01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:01.519 to kind of like, well, let's shake hands and move 1176 01:02:01.579 --> 01:02:02.239 on to the next one. 1177 01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:02.820 Right. 1178 01:02:03.380 --> 01:02:07.429 But pausing, taking that minute to reflect together and say, yeah, 1179 01:02:07.550 --> 01:02:09.969 I think we really were a B minus on this. 1180 01:02:10.090 --> 01:02:11.789 And I think here's what we can do to move 1181 01:02:11.809 --> 01:02:17.030 it up to an A is, is incredibly powerful. And 1182 01:02:17.179 --> 01:02:20.239 another thing that I think that can create that moment 1183 01:02:20.280 --> 01:02:23.739 of trust and vulnerability is something I call the subtraction game. 1184 01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:27.099 You know, the world is really good at giving us 1185 01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:30.239 more to do. Right. I would call it the disease 1186 01:02:30.280 --> 01:02:34.619 of more. And I think every organization is suffering from 1187 01:02:34.699 --> 01:02:38.480 it because just the nature of the system in which 1188 01:02:38.539 --> 01:02:41.019 we live, the nature of the environment in which we live, 1189 01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:44.570 is that there's always more. There's always more. And so 1190 01:02:44.610 --> 01:02:49.780 our plates are continually piling up with new tools, new processes, 1191 01:02:50.099 --> 01:02:52.199 new readings we have to do, new podcasts we have 1192 01:02:52.219 --> 01:02:55.880 to listen to, like everything, right? And I think good 1193 01:02:55.940 --> 01:03:00.110 cultures do a vulnerable thing and a trust building thing 1194 01:03:00.139 --> 01:03:06.469 where they say, let's subtract. Let's take some things off 1195 01:03:06.510 --> 01:03:08.590 the plate. And the subtraction game is one way to 1196 01:03:08.630 --> 01:03:11.250 do that, where you you sort of say, hey, get 1197 01:03:11.269 --> 01:03:13.869 the team together and say, hey, what have we done 1198 01:03:13.909 --> 01:03:16.510 for a long time, but it's no longer useful? Let's 1199 01:03:16.550 --> 01:03:20.179 name something. What was once useful, but is now adding 1200 01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:23.960 needless friction? Let's name those things. It's a short meeting, right? 1201 01:03:24.440 --> 01:03:28.079 But you can co-create, and that's such an important word 1202 01:03:28.119 --> 01:03:30.070 on a lot of this cultural stuff. It's not like 1203 01:03:30.090 --> 01:03:33.550 the leader is just going to announce that, okay, we're 1204 01:03:33.590 --> 01:03:38.150 no longer using Trello or whatever. It's that you're co-creating 1205 01:03:38.170 --> 01:03:41.730 and creating sort of shared awareness and, and figuring stuff 1206 01:03:41.769 --> 01:03:46.989 out together. That's really the moment, this vulnerability loop, when 1207 01:03:47.010 --> 01:03:49.380 you have people get together and really kind of get 1208 01:03:49.449 --> 01:03:53.260 real with each other. It creates a space for you 1209 01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:55.860 to figure things out together. Like that's what happens inside 1210 01:03:55.880 --> 01:03:58.519 that vulnerability loop. You're actually, let's take a look at 1211 01:03:58.539 --> 01:04:00.679 what's really happening and let's figure it out. 1212 01:04:02.110 --> 01:04:07.230 Dan. So good, man. What, what, Let's say there's somebody 1213 01:04:07.250 --> 01:04:08.989 who's reaching out for help, and maybe this is even 1214 01:04:09.030 --> 01:04:11.840 one of your kids considering the ages now that they are. 1215 01:04:13.300 --> 01:04:17.039 Earlier in their career, perhaps they just graduated college and 1216 01:04:17.079 --> 01:04:18.639 they're trying to figure things out. They know they want 1217 01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:20.340 to do good, right? They want to leave a dent, 1218 01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:22.929 a positive dent in the world. What are some general 1219 01:04:23.090 --> 01:04:27.090 pieces of life slash career advice you'd give to that person? 1220 01:04:27.829 --> 01:04:31.710 Yeah, I think it's an idea that I am stealing 1221 01:04:31.789 --> 01:04:35.360 from Dave Epstein, a real range, but it's something I've, 1222 01:04:36.050 --> 01:04:37.849 talked about with my own kids as they moved into 1223 01:04:37.869 --> 01:04:40.510 the work world, which is sort of think in terms 1224 01:04:40.550 --> 01:04:45.300 of experiments and keep a book of experiments, like write 1225 01:04:45.489 --> 01:04:49.920 down and reflect on, you know, if you're curious to 1226 01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:52.820 sort of check a certain area out or a certain 1227 01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:56.119 kind of job, like don't just sit around and imagine 1228 01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:59.789 what it would be like, but actually spend some time. 1229 01:04:59.809 --> 01:05:03.170 If you're curious about healthcare, go be a candy striper 1230 01:05:03.289 --> 01:05:05.619 in a hospital for a while. If you're You know, 1231 01:05:05.699 --> 01:05:09.840 curious about being a fireman, go see if you can 1232 01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:12.260 shadow for the day. Like you'd be surprised how many 1233 01:05:12.320 --> 01:05:15.940 people are open to those sorts of experiences when you 1234 01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:18.480 just say, hey, can I just learn about your work? 1235 01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:23.780 Most people will say, sure. And this idea of having 1236 01:05:23.820 --> 01:05:27.110 an experiment, a real world interaction with this domain that 1237 01:05:27.139 --> 01:05:32.949 you want to explore, and then write about it. Like stop, think, reflect, process, 1238 01:05:33.389 --> 01:05:37.400 you know, all learning. happens in a loop, right? You 1239 01:05:37.420 --> 01:05:40.400 have experience and then you have reflection. You have experience 1240 01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:42.739 and then you have reflection. And we often underrate the 1241 01:05:42.780 --> 01:05:47.619 reflection part. Like we sort of run through our lives, experience,

experience, experience, experience, experience. 1242 01:05:47.659 --> 01:05:52.460 And we're constantly gathering, gathering, gathering, but actually to stop, pause, process, 1243 01:05:53.139 --> 01:05:56.380 figure out what, what was I responding to there? What, 1244 01:05:56.889 --> 01:06:00.550 what direction should I travel? And so doing experiments in 1245 01:06:00.570 --> 01:06:04.869 a direction, I guess is, is, is a really important thing. 1246 01:06:04.949 --> 01:06:08.159 And to, as you go, as you go through that, 1247 01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:10.920 you know, to be patient, I mean, it's, it's such 1248 01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:14.019 a cliche, but you're not gonna, if you're not struggling 1249 01:06:14.059 --> 01:06:16.920 in your twenties, you're not doing it right. Like that's 1250 01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:20.440 what I think. Like if anybody's going through, Adam Grant 1251 01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:21.980 is really good on this. He does gives a lot 1252 01:06:22.019 --> 01:06:25.300 of career advice to his students. And when somebody comes 1253 01:06:25.340 --> 01:06:28.090 in and says, I know exactly what I'm doing for 1254 01:06:28.110 --> 01:06:32.650 the next 10 years, that's the worst sign, right? Certainty. 1255 01:06:32.730 --> 01:06:36.340 Are you kidding? Like, if you really have that mapped out, 1256 01:06:36.420 --> 01:06:39.860 you are deluding yourself. You don't have a clear vision 1257 01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:42.199 of yourself or the world. Like, cause that's not how 1258 01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:44.469 the world is built. That's probably not how you're built. 1259 01:06:45.389 --> 01:06:48.590 And so this idea, and there's, there's another book that 1260 01:06:48.670 --> 01:06:51.849 I've given to some people in their twenties, which is 1261 01:06:51.889 --> 01:06:55.809 called designing your life. It's, it's, it's a good set 1262 01:06:55.829 --> 01:06:59.070 of exercises and reflections for kind of thinking about what, 1263 01:06:59.690 --> 01:07:01.710 you know, what experiments you want to do and what 1264 01:07:01.750 --> 01:07:04.150 lights you up. And it's a, it's a nice tool for, 1265 01:07:04.550 --> 01:07:05.530 for that time in life. 1266 01:07:06.269 --> 01:07:11.090 The question in interviews, what is your like five-year plan 1267 01:07:11.130 --> 01:07:13.969 or what do you hope? I've found that to be bizarre, man. 1268 01:07:14.010 --> 01:07:16.489 Like I'm the worst at answering that question. But what 1269 01:07:16.510 --> 01:07:18.670 do you think of that as a question in the 1270 01:07:18.710 --> 01:07:19.469 interview process? 1271 01:07:20.010 --> 01:07:23.550 It's not, you know, every question, you know, is a 1272 01:07:23.719 --> 01:07:27.039 gateway to whatever the answerer wants, you know, in some way. 1273 01:07:27.260 --> 01:07:29.500 And so I don't think it's a great, I don't 1274 01:07:31.690 --> 01:07:34.170 you can answer it in some really interesting ways. You 1275 01:07:34.190 --> 01:07:37.840 can start talking about scenarios. You can start saying, yeah, 1276 01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:41.099 I have 10 different scenarios that I've been thinking about, right? 1277 01:07:41.500 --> 01:07:44.400 Or I could see this playing out in different ways 1278 01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:49.920 based on these forces, right? But it doesn't speak super 1279 01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:53.769 well of the questioner if they are themselves just talking 1280 01:07:53.789 --> 01:07:56.630 all the time about my five-year plan, my seven-year plan, 1281 01:07:56.650 --> 01:07:57.829 and my 10-year plan. Yeah. 1282 01:07:57.949 --> 01:07:58.190 Really? 1283 01:07:58.710 --> 01:07:58.829 Yeah. 1284 01:07:59.960 --> 01:08:01.480 I think, I think that's hard. Cause I, one of 1285 01:08:01.539 --> 01:08:03.150 the ways I've answered is like, I know what I, 1286 01:08:03.760 --> 01:08:06.360 what I'm committed to doing right now is I will 1287 01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:09.639 work very hard to follow what I'm most curious about 1288 01:08:09.900 --> 01:08:13.559 and hope that it helps people. And when I've done that, 1289 01:08:14.719 --> 01:08:16.640 Dan Coyle might send a text saying, well, you want 1290 01:08:16.659 --> 01:08:19.899 to come hang out with the Cleveland baseball team, right? 1291 01:08:20.060 --> 01:08:23.439 The president, all the guys who could have, how could 1292 01:08:23.489 --> 01:08:25.270 that have been a part of my five-year plan? Right. 1293 01:08:25.329 --> 01:08:26.409 And that would have led to the end of the 1294 01:08:26.449 --> 01:08:29.350 team's call with Jay and then the relationship and A 1295 01:08:29.369 --> 01:08:33.189 lot of other things, right? All those things happen because 1296 01:08:33.229 --> 01:08:35.909 of that one kind of North Star guiding point of 1297 01:08:35.949 --> 01:08:37.659 I'm going to work really hard to follow what I'm 1298 01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:40.859 curious about, to try to be very prepared, and then 1299 01:08:40.939 --> 01:08:44.079 hopefully it helps people. And if that happens, the opportunities, 1300 01:08:44.739 --> 01:08:47.500 I don't know, they're almost endless as weird and kind 1301 01:08:47.539 --> 01:08:52.189 of bad catchphrase as that sounds. That's how this has gone. 1302 01:08:52.210 --> 01:08:55.550 I'd imagine that if I stay committed to that, that 1303 01:08:55.590 --> 01:08:56.710 it should continue to happen. 1304 01:08:57.810 --> 01:08:59.829 I agree. That's how the universe is built. It's complex. 1305 01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:03.600 It's not just Legos, right? There's energy and there's patterns 1306 01:09:03.739 --> 01:09:07.250 and there's magnets. And it's like that stuff is just 1307 01:09:07.489 --> 01:09:09.909 going to keep exploding. So the better question I think 1308 01:09:10.430 --> 01:09:13.489 is about habits and behaviors. I don't want to know 1309 01:09:13.510 --> 01:09:15.310 about your plan. I want to know what you did 1310 01:09:15.350 --> 01:09:18.260 last

Tuesday morning. Or I want to know what you 1311 01:09:18.300 --> 01:09:20.859 did to prepare for this conversation. Let's talk about that. 1312 01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:24.300 Like that's a real question where if somebody goes, yeah, 1313 01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:26.819 I'm kind of winging it. Like that says something. And 1314 01:09:26.859 --> 01:09:29.819 if somebody says, no, here's exactly, I looked at these 1315 01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:32.619 models and I've been thinking about this for a while. 1316 01:09:32.699 --> 01:09:35.720 And here's the different ways I prepared. I mean, it's 1317 01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:38.279 called behavioral interviewing. That's kind of the formal thing, but 1318 01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:41.220 it's a really, it's a, that's why it's important because 1319 01:09:41.260 --> 01:09:45.350 it actually is specific concrete and you can actually talk 1320 01:09:45.390 --> 01:09:46.649 about it. 1321 01:09:46.810 --> 01:09:49.909 By the way, I should have said this earlier. So 1322 01:09:49.970 --> 01:09:51.770 you've done some work with Insight Global. I know Bert 1323 01:09:51.810 --> 01:09:54.300 being their CEO, I think you've spoken and worked with 1324 01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:59.739 them a little bit. Bert was at a conference. This 1325 01:09:59.779 --> 01:10:02.000 is kind of hearkening back to this, like you never 1326 01:10:02.020 --> 01:10:03.659 know what's going to happen. Bert was at a conference 1327 01:10:03.699 --> 01:10:05.880 with a bunch of CEOs and another one of them 1328 01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:07.600 came over to him because Bert's like, you know, we're 1329 01:10:07.619 --> 01:10:09.199 really trying to rebuild our culture. I think he was 1330 01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:11.699 a new CEO at the time, trying to rebuild our culture, 1331 01:10:11.739 --> 01:10:13.880 try to do some things. And some random guy, a 1332 01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:16.319 guy I still don't even know, said, you should listen 1333 01:10:16.350 --> 01:10:19.479 to to Dan Coyle. It's episode 242 on the Learning 1334 01:10:19.520 --> 01:10:22.659 Leader Show. I think it'll be helpful for you. And 1335 01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:25.539 obviously read the book and stuff, all that too. So 1336 01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:30.640 Bert listened and really liked it and decided to continue 1337 01:10:30.659 --> 01:10:33.359 to listen and has listened to most episodes since then. 1338 01:10:33.380 --> 01:10:37.180 And a year ago, I started working with another senior leader, 1339 01:10:37.220 --> 01:10:40.930 Sam Kaufman, who's our chief revenue officer two years ago now. 1340 01:10:41.390 --> 01:10:44.489 A year ago, we came into like a formal partnership, 1341 01:10:44.529 --> 01:10:46.510 similar probably to what you have with the Guardians. And 1342 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:51.829 That kind of magic would have never happened if you 1343 01:10:51.869 --> 01:10:54.109 and I wouldn't have had that conversation and it would 1344 01:10:54.130 --> 01:10:57.010 have

impressed him enough to say, I want to continue listening. 1345 01:10:57.029 --> 01:10:59.449 And he listened and he became, I think, a fan 1346 01:10:59.520 --> 01:11:02.539 over the course of years to the point where it's like, 1347 01:11:02.619 --> 01:11:05.680 we need to work together, right? And that has been 1348 01:11:05.699 --> 01:11:09.319 the best partnership I could have ever had. So it's 1349 01:11:09.579 --> 01:11:12.810 just amazing the way the world works, man. It's like 1350 01:11:12.939 --> 01:11:15.189 hard to fully predict, but 242 is. 1351 01:11:16.579 --> 01:11:20.100 Will forever be a special one to me because of, 1352 01:11:20.300 --> 01:11:22.000 I had no idea. I was just trying to be 1353 01:11:22.060 --> 01:11:24.319 prepared about the culture code. That's it. You know, you 1354 01:11:24.340 --> 01:11:26.500 show up and you hope it goes well, you know, 1355 01:11:26.600 --> 01:11:28.239 idea is going to lead to what it did. And 1356 01:11:28.300 --> 01:11:30.159 now here we are. So it just, it just, it 1357 01:11:30.189 --> 01:11:33.449 just wild of how the world can work. Sometimes if 1358 01:11:33.489 --> 01:11:35.590 you try to work hard and be prepared and meet 1359 01:11:35.630 --> 01:11:36.350 the moment, I think. 1360 01:11:36.869 --> 01:11:38.130 Super cool. Love it. 1361 01:11:38.609 --> 01:11:40.350 So, so what's that? 1362 01:11:40.449 --> 01:11:43.130 It feels, it feels like magic, but down deep, it's 1363 01:11:43.390 --> 01:11:43.850 not magic. 1364 01:11:44.170 --> 01:11:47.720 No. The book's The Culture Playbook 60. We only covered 1365 01:11:47.739 --> 01:11:53.590 like three. 60 highly effective actions to help your group succeed. 1366 01:11:54.029 --> 01:11:56.989 I highly, highly recommend people get this. Obviously, if you 1367 01:11:57.010 --> 01:11:59.550 like The Culture Code, you're going to love this. It's 1368 01:11:59.810 --> 01:12:04.630 an amazing follow-up, and it's very practical. You can put 1369 01:12:04.670 --> 01:12:09.050 it into action today. Start doing the things today, and 1370 01:12:09.069 --> 01:12:11.109 then it will help you achieve the results you want 1371 01:12:11.130 --> 01:12:13.449 from a culture perspective. So The Culture Playbook, I highly 1372 01:12:13.489 --> 01:12:16.409 recommend it. Dan, obviously, I'm so grateful for you and 1373 01:12:16.750 --> 01:12:19.380 we'll certainly continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. 1374 01:12:19.979 --> 01:12:21.760 Me too. Hope to see you soon, Ryan. Thanks for 1375 01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:22.640 having me. Great conversation. 1376 01:12:23.180 --> 01:12:28.319 Thanks, man. I love talking with Dan Coyle. I think 1377 01:12:28.340 --> 01:12:31.939 it's evident by the sound and energy, excitement of my 1378 01:12:32.020 --> 01:12:36.579 voice when we're having conversations. He is such a kind 1379 01:12:36.880 --> 01:12:42.140 and giving, thoughtful and really smart guy and a fantastic 1380 01:12:42.260 --> 01:12:46.279 writer and storyteller. If this is your first time hearing 1381 01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:49.340 of him, you're in for a treat because you get 1382 01:12:49.359 --> 01:12:52.619 to go back and read his books, which are fantastic. 1383 01:12:53.979 --> 01:12:58.340 A few takeaways from my notes. Schedule a pre-, mid-, 1384 01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:03.199 and post-mortem meeting. This is how we learn. We set 1385 01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:06.619 expectations early on. We pause in the middle to ask, 1386 01:13:06.739 --> 01:13:09.869 how are we doing? And then post-mortem, we react. An 1387 01:13:10.050 --> 01:13:12.710 after-action review, as the military might call it, to learn 1388 01:13:12.729 --> 01:13:15.699 about from what we did well and where we messed 1389 01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.500 up so that we ensure we're getting better for the 1390 01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:23.460 next one. Then the misconception is that places are always happy. 1391 01:13:24.199 --> 01:13:27.539 Doing great work is hard. The way we build great 1392 01:13:27.619 --> 01:13:33.630 cultures is doing hard things together, and we're focused on 1393 01:13:33.729 --> 01:13:39.739 connection and safety. I think when he talked about Ed 1394 01:13:39.800 --> 01:13:42.279 Catmull at Pixar and the fact that, yeah, it wasn't 1395 01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:47.119 always happy. They're doing hard things together, but it is 1396 01:13:47.899 --> 01:13:52.109 safe and they are connected. And I think that's what 1397 01:13:52.189 --> 01:13:57.750 great leaders, how you build long-lasting, excellent cultures is by 1398 01:13:57.829 --> 01:14:00.829 fostering an environment for that. And then think of your 1399 01:14:00.930 --> 01:14:08.380 life and experiments and the learning loop. It's experience plus reflection. 1400 01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:15.340 Experience plus reflection. Write down what you've learned from your experiences. 1401 01:14:15.550 --> 01:14:19.970 Writing creates clarity of thought. While that advice is for 1402 01:14:20.010 --> 01:14:22.510 people earlier in their career, I think it would benefit 1403 01:14:22.770 --> 01:14:25.630 all of us. I want to tell you, thank you 1404 01:14:26.050 --> 01:14:29.899 so much for continuing to spread the message and telling 1405 01:14:29.939 --> 01:14:32.140 a friend or two, hey, you should listen to to 1406 01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:34.779 this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Dan Coyle. 1407 01:14:35.000 --> 01:14:39.220 I think he'll help you become a more effective leader. 1408 01:14:39.260 --> 01:14:42.359 And because you continue to do that and you continue 1409 01:14:42.439 --> 01:14:46.140 to write reviews and rate the show, hopefully five stars 1410 01:14:46.220 --> 01:14:51.069 on Apple Podcast, you are giving me the opportunity to 1411 01:14:51.109 --> 01:14:53.710 do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, 1412 01:14:54.310 --> 01:14:58.050 I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. 1413 01:14:58.090 --> 01:14:58.850 Talk to you soon. Can't wait.