บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 331: Ryan Holiday - How Will You Choose To Respond? (Stillness Is The Key)

69 00:04:18.170 --> 00:04:20.730 you think about the people in your life, the people 70 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:26.050 in your sphere, that whether you study them, write about them, 71 00:04:26.610 --> 00:04:29.750 hang out with them, those people who have the ability 72 00:04:29.810 --> 00:04:33.860 to sustain excellence, what have you found that those few 73 00:04:34.019 --> 00:04:34.779 have in common? 74 00:04:36.420 --> 00:04:38.800 I think in the course of writing this book and 75 00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:42.439 getting a little older, I definitely think I've expanded my 76 00:04:43.079 --> 00:04:47.339 definition of excellence or greatness or virtue, or at least 77 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:51.360 I guess I'm more interested in looking at the whole picture. 78 00:04:51.420 --> 00:04:54.829 So I'm less impressed with people, for instance, who are 79 00:04:54.870 --> 00:04:57.370 just able to win a lot or people who have 80 00:04:57.870 --> 00:05:03.089 made lots of money. I've zoomed out slightly to be 81 00:05:03.129 --> 00:05:06.569 able to see at what cost do these things come at. 82 00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:10.120 So when I look at people who are extremely accomplished, 83 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.839 but let's say very unhappy or they're very accomplished, but 84 00:05:14.860 --> 00:05:18.079 this has come at the expense of other people, whether 85 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.839 it's the public at large or their family or I'm 86 00:05:20.860 --> 00:05:23.139 much less impressed. So when I look at people who 87 00:05:23.180 --> 00:05:26.139 have really done great things that I go, that's the 88 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.000 kind of person I admire, that's the kind of person 89 00:05:28.019 --> 00:05:31.639 I want to be like, what I see is balance. 90 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:35.459 So they have this drive, they have this skill, they 91 00:05:35.500 --> 00:05:38.529 have this ability to do things, but it is not 92 00:05:38.949 --> 00:05:43.319 given– unlimited it's not it's not something it's not at 93 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:48.189 full throttle it's just not let run unchecked right and 94 00:05:48.350 --> 00:05:50.370 and i certainly see that in myself like i feel 95 00:05:50.389 --> 00:05:52.410 like i've done some pretty good things that i wouldn't 96 00:05:52.430 --> 00:05:54.569 define myself as great but i've done good things i've 97 00:05:54.589 --> 00:05:57.350 been successful in my field do i think that i 98 00:05:57.389 --> 00:06:02.730 probably left some material success on the table sure but 99 00:06:02.790 --> 00:06:06.589 am i am i happy with what i've traded through 100 00:06:06.629 --> 00:06:10.670 being let's say disciplined had this idea of temperance this 101 00:06:10.750 --> 00:06:14.629 idea of knowing what enough is. So I guess this 102 00:06:14.649 --> 00:06:16.310 is a roundabout way of answering your question. When I 103 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.379 see real greatness, what I see is balance, that this 104 00:06:19.439 -->

00:06:23.720 greatness is integrated into their life. They haven't turned themselves 105 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:27.180 into a football machine or a writing machine or a 106 00:06:27.220 --> 00:06:31.850 money-making machine because in a way that's almost the easier 107 00:06:31.910 --> 00:06:32.629 thing to do. 108 00:06:33.649 --> 00:06:36.209 I was going to say if there was one word 109 00:06:36.370 --> 00:06:39.439 I'd pull from your latest work, stillness is the key. 110 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.610 It was the word enough. This was one of the 111 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:47.069 words that Tiger Woods and his dad had between each 112 00:06:47.129 --> 00:06:49.730 other if his dad was pushing it too far. But 113 00:06:49.750 --> 00:06:53.250 it also has multiple meanings throughout the book, the word enough. 114 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:57.100 And I think you touched on it there when describing 115 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:03.480 virtue or excellence, is that this ability to find that 116 00:07:04.170 --> 00:07:07.029 difficult balance. And I struggle with this myself. I'm sure 117 00:07:07.050 --> 00:07:08.629 you do as well. A lot of, I think high 118 00:07:08.670 --> 00:07:15.180 performers probably do is we are probably growth oriented, always 119 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.319 striving for more. Don't take enough time. When I say we, 120 00:07:18.339 --> 00:07:21.480 I should say me. Don't take, don't take enough time 121 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:24.480 to celebrate when something goes well, because you're thinking, well, 122 00:07:24.500 --> 00:07:27.639 wait a second, there's more, there's more, there's more. When 123 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:32.420 really the word I get is get to enough. So 124 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:36.139 how do you juxtapose between that, that balance of saying, well, 125 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:38.699 wait a second, I want the next book deal. I 126 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:40.800 want the speaking gig. I want to raise my rates. 127 00:07:40.899 --> 00:07:43.160 I want to do more, more, more. And if I don't, 128 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.500 there's a chance that maybe I'll be forgotten or maybe 129 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:48.519 they'll just call somebody else to come speak to the 130 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.850 Cleveland Browns, whatever it may be. How do you balance that? 131 00:07:53.029 --> 00:07:56.980 So I think first off, we can– solve this through, like, 132 00:07:57.000 --> 00:07:58.600 you know, when you look at a difficult math problem, 133 00:07:58.620 --> 00:08:01.040 they're like, sort of get rid of the variables that 134 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:02.939 cancel each other out or just get rid of the 135 00:08:03.379 --> 00:08:05.040 stuff that you don't need to solve for. And so 136 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:09.019 the first would be like, we're definitely going to be forgotten, right? Like, 137 00:08:09.410 --> 00:08:11.670 we're definitely going to be forgotten. So if we can, 138 00:08:12.110 --> 00:08:15.170 if we can

stop thinking, hey, if I do X, 139 00:08:15.470 --> 00:08:19.509 then I will be remembered for longer. And this is 140 00:08:19.569 --> 00:08:21.750 one of the, I think the most interesting themes in 141 00:08:21.829 --> 00:08:25.060 all of stoicism is Marcus Aurelius in his meditations, he's 142 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:28.920 writing over and over again about how the names of 143 00:08:29.180 --> 00:08:34.070 even the emperors, just like a few emperors back, nobody knows. 144 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:38.590 Have you ever heard of Vespasian? That's like three emperors 145 00:08:38.669 --> 00:08:44.129 before Marcus Aurelius, right? And so he's like, look, even 146 00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:48.450 this job, the most coveted, difficult, most well-known job in 147 00:08:48.470 --> 00:08:52.429 the world has a memory recall of only a generation 148 00:08:52.450 --> 00:08:56.419 or two. And then he goes, look, also, even if 149 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:00.360 we did know who Vespasian is, he's dead. So what 150 00:09:00.379 --> 00:09:03.210 does he care? Right. So I think first we go like, look, 151 00:09:03.710 --> 00:09:06.929 accomplishing things so we'll be remembered by people who are 152 00:09:06.970 --> 00:09:10.710 living after us is a pretty worthless goal. And we 153 00:09:10.750 --> 00:09:14.049 can say, OK, so my goal is to be successful today. 154 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:17.879 in my own time, to have success I can actually enjoy, 155 00:09:17.899 --> 00:09:21.789 and then go, okay, where does that seem to come from, right? 156 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:25.649 And I was just thinking about this this morning. Originally, 157 00:09:25.710 --> 00:09:28.629 for me, success was like, I want to write a book. 158 00:09:28.769 --> 00:09:31.889 That's what success is. And that was success for me 159 00:09:31.950 --> 00:09:33.820 for many years, and it took a long time to 160 00:09:33.860 --> 00:09:37.539 get there. But almost before the ink on the contract 161 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:40.059 was dry, I was thinking, now I have to make 162 00:09:40.100 --> 00:09:43.919 this a bestseller. And then before I even framed the bestseller, 163 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:46.700 you know, its appearance on the bestseller list, I was 164 00:09:46.740 --> 00:09:50.120 selling the next book. And it's like this with everything. 165 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.360 It's like, I found my dream house. And then the 166 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:55.210 next thing you know, I'm remodeling it, right? Like, we 167 00:09:55.389 --> 00:09:58.230 can't stop ourselves. And I think we go, sure, this 168 00:09:58.769 --> 00:10:02.360 is the source of why I'm never content, why I 169 00:10:02.419 --> 00:10:05.419 never enjoy what I have, but it's spurring me to 170 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.320 do more and more. But when I actually look at 171 00:10:08.539 --> 00:10:10.759 the work that I've done, when I look at the 172 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:15.769 books that I've written, it wasn't that ceaselessness, that discontent 173 00:10:15.870 --> 00:10:18.850 that made me able to do it. It was the 174 00:10:18.990 --> 00:10:23.120 quietness I had alone in front of the computer screen. 175 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.759 It was the love of actually doing the thing that 176 00:10:27.830 --> 00:10:32.909 was the source of my success. It's the the endless desire, 177 00:10:32.990 --> 00:10:37.789 the insatiability that's only responsible for the fact that I 178 00:10:37.889 --> 00:10:41.389 feel all this pressure and this anxiety and insecurity. The 179 00:10:41.470 --> 00:10:44.580 work is what I like and finishing the work and 180 00:10:44.620 --> 00:10:46.580 doing the work and having the work. That's what I like. 181 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:52.659 But the inability to enjoy it, that's where that insatiability 182 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:57.139 comes in. And so I'm just not sure that being 183 00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:02.850 content is actually the enemy of producing things. I think 184 00:11:02.889 --> 00:11:07.029 you can produce great things from a great place. Again, 185 00:11:07.049 --> 00:11:11.309 it's harder, but it's ultimately maybe purer and better. 186 00:11:12.370 --> 00:11:15.120 You've written about Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame speech recently. 187 00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:19.230 And how misguided it was. And I remember watching it. 188 00:11:19.250 --> 00:11:22.330 And you may have been like me where you grow 189 00:11:22.389 --> 00:11:26.830 up almost idolizing this guy. I loved watching him play. 190 00:11:26.850 --> 00:11:29.429 I had WGN. I could watch all of his games. 191 00:11:29.529 --> 00:11:31.269 And he was my favorite player. A lot of people 192 00:11:31.309 --> 00:11:35.429 my age, probably his favorite player, even younger. And he's 193 00:11:35.509 --> 00:11:38.139 trying to show that during this Hall of Fame speech, 194 00:11:38.179 --> 00:11:40.000 if you haven't watched it, you could YouTube it. And 195 00:11:40.039 --> 00:11:43.399 basically he talks about all of the people who doubted him. 196 00:11:44.120 --> 00:11:45.940 And he's trying to show that anger can be used 197 00:11:46.019 --> 00:11:51.220 as fuel. And I've, I wish that wasn't a thing, 198 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.909 I guess is my, is my, I think it can 199 00:11:53.950 --> 00:11:56.049 be flipped and you've written about this as well. So 200 00:11:56.090 --> 00:11:57.690 I want you to expand on it, but I love 201 00:11:57.830 --> 00:12:02.210 proving my supporters, right? I feel like that's such a, Oh, 202 00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:05.480 that's interesting. A more enjoyable way to live. Because it also, though, 203 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.639 is painful, Ryan. I've proven my supporters wrong as well. 204 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:12.259 For example, I go to college. I get a scholarship 205 00:12:12.299 --> 00:12:14.600 to play at Miami University. It so happens the exact 206 00:12:14.659 --> 00:12:17.549 same time, the exact same age as me, in the

207 00:12:17.570 --> 00:12:20.090 exact same position as a guy named Ben Roethlisberger. And 208 00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:23.029 he beats me out for that job. I had people 209 00:12:23.049 --> 00:12:25.730 who supported me, who backed me, who believed in me, 210 00:12:26.049 --> 00:12:27.889 who said I was going to be the starting quarterback, 211 00:12:28.029 --> 00:12:31.259 and I lost. I proved them wrong. I was more 212 00:12:31.350 --> 00:12:34.509 upset about the fact that I proved my supporters wrong 213 00:12:34.929 --> 00:12:37.850 than trying to F the haters or any of that 214 00:12:37.909 --> 00:12:40.750 type of behavior like Michael Jordan. So I'm curious, when 215 00:12:40.789 --> 00:12:44.940 you think about those proving supporters right versus proving haters wrong, 216 00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:49.720 what's your thought process there, especially as you studied Michael 217 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:50.600 Jordan in that speech? 218 00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:53.659 No, that's a beautiful way to put it. I talked 219 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:55.580 to George Ravelin, who I know you had on the 220 00:12:55.620 --> 00:12:57.720 podcast when I was writing that chapter. And he was 221 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:00.539 saying that, you know, it was basically like Jordan had 222 00:13:00.580 --> 00:13:03.970 sort of shut all these demons up in a closet 223 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.250 for a very long time. And they were sort of 224 00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:08.769 his secret, all the anger that he had, all the 225 00:13:08.830 --> 00:13:10.570 rage that he had, all the people he was trying 226 00:13:10.610 --> 00:13:12.809 to prove wrong. And then it all sort of came 227 00:13:12.929 --> 00:13:16.190 spilling out in this embarrassing way on a moment that 228 00:13:16.210 --> 00:13:19.350 should have been quite wonderful. It turned it awful. What 229 00:13:19.370 --> 00:13:21.929 I think is so interesting about that is like every 230 00:13:22.110 --> 00:13:25.480 single person that I've talked to in sports, coaches who 231 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:27.700 have won Super Bowls, you know, athletes who have been 232 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.389 the greatest in their field. They all they're like, oh, 233 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:32.820 my God, that speech is so awful, you know, like 234 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:35.639 it's so bad. And then if you were to like 235 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:37.259 sort of let it sit so they didn't think it 236 00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:38.600 was a trap, you talked to him a couple of 237 00:13:38.620 --> 00:13:41.259 weeks later and you're like, so how does anger work 238 00:13:41.299 --> 00:13:42.980 on the on the field? They'd be like, oh, it's 239 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:47.000 great fuel. So it's interesting. We see we see what 240 00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:49.779 the true costs of it are in examples like that. 241 00:13:50.419 --> 00:13:52.259 And then we go, well, I'm just going to dabble 242 00:13:52.299 --> 00:13:54.039 with it myself or

I'm going to use it a 243 00:13:54.070 --> 00:13:56.669 little bit here. And I'm not sure it works that way. 244 00:13:56.690 --> 00:14:00.230 I like your idea that that it's better to try 245 00:14:00.250 --> 00:14:03.210 to be proving people right than proving people wrong. The 246 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:05.629 problem with trying to prove people wrong is that eventually 247 00:14:05.669 --> 00:14:08.519 you do it. And then instead of feeling good, right, 248 00:14:08.539 --> 00:14:12.759 there's never enough. You your mind begins to invent new 249 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:16.100 slights and new people to prove wrong. And so you 250 00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:19.870 end up sort of going through the world almost. subconsciously 251 00:14:20.029 --> 00:14:22.870 seeking out conflict and enemies. And that's what you hear 252 00:14:22.909 --> 00:14:25.350 in Michael Jordan's speech. You're like, wait, let me get 253 00:14:25.370 --> 00:14:30.009 this straight. Like you're mad that your college basketball coach 254 00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:34.960 didn't feature you in a players to look out for 255 00:14:35.019 --> 00:14:39.840 column in Sports Illustrated in 1982. And you're still trying 256 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.840 to prove him wrong. Like the coach doesn't even remember. 257 00:14:42.899 --> 00:14:45.039 It's not like this was some big thing where you 258 00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:47.529 guys went head to head and you're holding on to 259 00:14:47.570 --> 00:14:50.889 a grudge with Isaiah Thomas or John Stockdale or something. 260 00:14:51.509 --> 00:14:55.409 It's like you've invented a conflict that did not even 261 00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.919 exist and you're hanging on to it. I think for me, 262 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.179 what I try to think about is like, it's not 263 00:15:01.220 --> 00:15:03.539 even am I proving other people right, but like, am 264 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:07.480 I proving myself right? Like, am I proving my own 265 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:12.490 potential right? Like, did I leave it all on the page? 266 00:15:12.690 --> 00:15:14.990 Let's say as a writer, did I do everything I 267 00:15:15.070 --> 00:15:17.950 could as a writer or did I bone it in? 268 00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:23.730 Did I take shortcuts? Did I not fulfill my own standards? 269 00:15:23.789 --> 00:15:27.009 I think what you're saying is that you want to 270 00:15:27.049 --> 00:15:31.279 have standards that are higher than just winning or losing 271 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:33.659 or just other people. You want to have your own 272 00:15:33.740 --> 00:15:36.879 set of standards. If I was looking at you and 273 00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:41.220 Ben Roethlisberger, I'd say, Did you give everything that you could? 274 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:43.720 Like some people are just better, right? Some people are taller. 275 00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:47.080 Some people are stronger. Some people have a moment in 276 00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:49.460 time or get a break that we didn't get.

So 277 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:53.279 it's more like success or failure in that matchup is like, 278 00:15:53.899 --> 00:15:58.740 did Ryan Hawk play with everything he had? If so, 279 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:00.659 then you can sort of walk away with your head 280 00:16:00.860 --> 00:16:03.980 held high. If you went, you know what? There were 281 00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:06.720 times where I thought it was mine. And since I 282 00:16:06.940 --> 00:16:08.500 didn't get it, I wasn't going to put in the 283 00:16:08.539 --> 00:16:10.240 work or I was going to hold a little bit back. 284 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:14.759 Then I'd walk away from that thinking, okay, how can 285 00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:16.759 I learn from that? How can I improve? How can 286 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:20.710 I not let either that ego or insecurity or sort 287 00:16:20.750 --> 00:16:25.570 of external focus lead me astray again in the future? 288 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:28.929 It's a great way to look at it. And it 289 00:16:28.970 --> 00:16:32.490 made me think of– So you write a lot about 290 00:16:32.590 --> 00:16:37.169 Stoicism and the Stoics, their higher power was the Logos, 291 00:16:37.269 --> 00:16:41.279 which was the path of the universe. They acknowledged fate 292 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:43.440 and fortune and the power these forces had over them. 293 00:16:43.460 --> 00:16:46.840 This helped them access a kind of stillness and peace. 294 00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:53.450 And so I'm curious your thought process for you, since 295 00:16:53.590 --> 00:16:56.929 you're so in deep with studying this and how it 296 00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:00.070 impacts your life, because a lot of us. 297 00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:01.879 I don't know. 298 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:06.130 We want this agency to say, I'm going to determine 299 00:17:06.190 --> 00:17:09.509 what happens. The choices I make, the work ethic I have, 300 00:17:09.569 --> 00:17:13.579 the discipline, the consistency, that is what's going to determine 301 00:17:13.630 --> 00:17:14.299 my future. 302 00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:15.640 Sure. 303 00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:18.480 How do you view that with the logos or just 304 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.799 the path of the universe? And this is kind of deep, 305 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:23.220 but I think it's important because it impacts us on 306 00:17:23.259 --> 00:17:24.069 a daily basis. 307 00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:28.190 So I gave a talk to the Gamecocks, the University 308 00:17:28.210 --> 00:17:30.569 of South Carolina, three or four months ago. And when 309 00:17:30.609 --> 00:17:33.930 I was there, I was talking to Marcus Lattimore. And 310 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:35.930 there you have a guy who was sort of a 311 00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:39.690 once in a generation talent, a guy that was set 312 00:17:39.730 --> 00:17:42.730 up for a huge career in the pros. Everyone was 313 00:17:42.750 --> 00:17:44.369 looking forward to what he was going to be able 314 00:17:44.410 --> 00:17:47.490 to

do. And then he has this devastating on field injury. 315 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:49.210 He does a couple of years, I think, with the 49ers. 316 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:53.849 But basically what everyone thought and probably what he dreamed 317 00:17:53.990 --> 00:17:56.809 of and what he worked his life to do didn't 318 00:17:56.990 --> 00:17:59.829 didn't come to pass. And it wasn't his fault and 319 00:17:59.849 --> 00:18:02.309 it wasn't fair, but it's what happened. And I was 320 00:18:02.349 --> 00:18:04.380 talking to him. And so when you talk to someone 321 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:06.700 like that, I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to 322 00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:09.160 expect they might be a little bitter or have some 323 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.559 regrets or have some sort of like, oh, I just 324 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:14.890 wish it were different. And and he's now the director 325 00:18:14.910 --> 00:18:17.890 of personnel for the football team there. And I was 326 00:18:17.950 --> 00:18:20.339 talking to him about it. And and his attitude was 327 00:18:20.359 --> 00:18:24.619 just like amazing. Like he he seemed happier than few 328 00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:28.019 people I've met. And he said something like that injury 329 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.880 was the best thing that ever happened to me, because 330 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:33.500 if it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't be here. 331 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.160 I wouldn't be working with these kids. And I never 332 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.349 would have discovered even this line of work, right? Like, 333 00:18:39.390 --> 00:18:42.930 he didn't even know that being director of sort of 334 00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:46.930 player development for a team, like, was a job. And 335 00:18:46.970 --> 00:18:49.549 it turns out he's actually amazing at it. And so... 336 00:18:50.509 --> 00:18:53.609 I just love that idea. And so we have this 337 00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:57.069 sense that agency is like getting everything that you want, right? 338 00:18:57.190 --> 00:19:00.130 Agency is like, I'm going to make it into the pros. 339 00:19:00.150 --> 00:19:01.309 I'm going to beat the odds. I'm going to have 340 00:19:01.349 --> 00:19:03.450 millions of dollars. I'm going to be a famous football player. 341 00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:06.039 And if I can't have that, then I don't have 342 00:19:06.099 --> 00:19:08.799 any agency. What the Stokes would say is like, look, 343 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:12.940 you can work towards that and you have some influence 344 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.019 over it, but ultimately a whole other host of factors 345 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:18.819 can intervene, you know, an injury, a weather, the league 346 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:22.859 can get shut down, right? Like, Football could be made illegal, right? 347 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.940 So many things stand between you and getting that thing, 348 00:19:27.339 --> 00:19:30.559 for better or for worse. And so the agency is 349 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:34.140 not in getting what you want. The agency is in 350 00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:40.089 saying yes to the specific situations as they happen. So 351 00:19:40.089 --> 00:19:43.799 for him, agency was deciding, okay, I'm not able to 352 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:48.589 play football anymore. I'm going to choose to do this instead. 353 00:19:48.589 --> 00:19:51.029 I'm going to choose to be really good at it. 354 00:19:51.029 --> 00:19:54.690 I'm going to choose not to be resentful. I'm going 355 00:19:54.710 --> 00:19:57.819 to choose not to become a drunk or a pill 356 00:19:57.900 --> 00:20:01.420 addict or a bitter old man. I'm going to choose 357 00:20:01.779 --> 00:20:04.740 to make a positive difference in people's lives and be 358 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.680 really good at this new thing instead. which wasn't an 359 00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:11.160 opportunity for me before. And to me, that's what this 360 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:14.460 balance is about. You know, the Stokes basically thought we're 361 00:20:14.529 --> 00:20:17.490 sort of being pulled along and we can either go 362 00:20:17.529 --> 00:20:19.250 with the flow of that or we can just sort 363 00:20:19.289 --> 00:20:22.670 of lay down. But ultimately, we're going to be dragged 364 00:20:22.930 --> 00:20:24.950 there one way or another. And so we might as 365 00:20:24.990 --> 00:20:25.950 well go willingly. 366 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.440 So it's really how you choose to respond in those moments, 367 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:32.279 both of success and failure. 368 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.400 Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's, it's how you choose to 369 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:38.880 respond in everyday situations as well, right? You don't control traffic. 370 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:41.440 You don't control the weather. You don't control that the 371 00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.420 internet goes down, but you control how you're going to 372 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:46.579 respond to that thing. 373 00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:51.440 How do you do this now as you've had a 374 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:52.380 second child, correct? 375 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:53.099 Yes. 376 00:20:53.259 --> 00:20:55.259 How do you, how do you, this is one of 377 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:58.539 the most challenging things for me as a parent is 378 00:20:58.789 --> 00:21:04.720 I feel pretty composed and measured. And in control most 379 00:21:04.759 --> 00:21:08.460 of the time, except for maybe when a child lies 380 00:21:08.529 --> 00:21:11.549 or does something and it upsets me. And sometimes I'm 381 00:21:11.569 --> 00:21:14.009 not proud of how I respond in those moments in 382 00:21:14.029 --> 00:21:18.349 the split second. Most parents could probably agree. And I 383 00:21:18.349 --> 00:21:21.509 know your kids are younger, so maybe they're different things 384 00:21:21.529 --> 00:21:24.730 that you're dealing with. But how has being a parent 385 00:21:24.809 --> 00:21:30.519 now

twice impacted you in this regard? Because now it's 386 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:33.880 not about you anymore. It is about you, but it's 387 00:21:33.940 --> 00:21:38.319 also about you're responsible for others. And so how do 388 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:41.299 you use what you've learned from the Stoics and how 389 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:44.880 to respond and how to make choices as a dad? 390 00:21:46.220 --> 00:21:50.509 Yeah. Look, I'm fortunate or at least somewhat ignorant so 391 00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:53.069 far in that they're not quite lying to us. They're 392 00:21:53.109 --> 00:21:56.170 not quite trying to sneak out in the middle of 393 00:21:56.190 --> 00:22:00.670 the night or whatever. But what you do get from 394 00:22:00.730 --> 00:22:05.130 having children is just a wake-up call in terms of 395 00:22:05.170 --> 00:22:09.109 how powerless you are over the universe, right? Unless you 396 00:22:09.130 --> 00:22:11.269 want to be a terrible parent, right? It's like, hey, 397 00:22:11.309 --> 00:22:14.349 we're driving, we're meeting these people at two o'clock, but 398 00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:18.869 your kid fell asleep at 155. Like, actually, you're getting 399 00:22:18.910 --> 00:22:22.779 there whenever your two year old decides, you know, he's 400 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:25.960 ready to wake up, right? Or when you wake up 401 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.900 in the morning is not when your alarm goes off. 402 00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.740 It's when you hear crying and screaming and banging on 403 00:22:30.759 --> 00:22:34.259 the door. And so it's just sort of a reminder 404 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.440 that like, for a very short period, you had some 405 00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:40.200 autonomy over your life. And all of a sudden, that 406 00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:43.849 That autonomy is gone and you better kind of get 407 00:22:43.940 --> 00:22:47.869 used to it. And so it's a in that sense, 408 00:22:47.930 --> 00:22:51.549 for me, it's been very humbling and eye opening. And 409 00:22:51.569 --> 00:22:56.269 I think a chance to practice this way of thinking 410 00:22:56.329 --> 00:23:00.140 and being that we don't. we don't naturally want to 411 00:23:00.180 --> 00:23:04.029 sort of assent to, but we have to, because the 412 00:23:04.089 --> 00:23:07.029 truth is like of all the things in the world, 413 00:23:07.109 --> 00:23:10.470 we control like a very, very tiny fraction of them. And, 414 00:23:10.869 --> 00:23:12.970 and so most of the time, all we're actually doing 415 00:23:13.069 --> 00:23:16.690 is responding to these things we don't control. And, and 416 00:23:16.730 --> 00:23:20.569 if we can give up that sense of, of resentment 417 00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:24.500 or powerlessness about it, and instead focus on what what 418 00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:26.700 we're going to do in response. I think we're better off. 419 00:23:26.740 --> 00:23:30.400 We're happier. We're better parents. We're better, whatever we do professionally, 420

00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:32.700 but it sort of takes a wake up call. 421 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:37.009 There's also a lot of discussion that you have out 422 00:23:37.069 --> 00:23:41.769 there about around the power of great relationships and how 423 00:23:41.829 --> 00:23:45.619 impactful a great life partner is. And we've talked a 424 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:47.279 little bit about your wife, Samantha, in the past. I've 425 00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:49.660 been fortunate to hang out with you guys a little 426 00:23:49.700 --> 00:23:52.829 bit at mastermind talks and and we we've probably all 427 00:23:52.869 --> 00:23:57.269 now seen Harvard study, uh, Scott Galloway talked about the, the, 428 00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:00.730 the number one predictor of happiness and contentment is, is 429 00:24:00.809 --> 00:24:05.859 love full stop. What, what have you learned over the 430 00:24:05.900 --> 00:24:08.460 years about not only your relationship with your wife, but, 431 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:11.079 but others in general and how that has had such 432 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:19.059 an impact on contentness, success, failure, uh, everything in between, 433 00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:23.099 mainly the who in your life. Yeah, sure. 434 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.279 I mean, I think just the idea of like, you know, 435 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:28.500 a bunch of my friends, it's like, they meet someone, 436 00:24:28.519 --> 00:24:31.059 they get married right away, and then they have kids. 437 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:33.579 And that was after, you know, 30 years of doing 438 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:37.049 everything they wanted, however they wanted to, never having to 439 00:24:37.210 --> 00:24:40.089 answer to another person, never really having to be responsible 440 00:24:40.150 --> 00:24:43.289 to another person. And so I think this is a 441 00:24:43.349 --> 00:24:46.299 hard way to do it, right? Because you've gotten so 442 00:24:46.430 --> 00:24:49.480 used to sort of being the center of the universe 443 00:24:49.539 --> 00:24:52.019 and all of a sudden you're not. I think what 444 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:55.700 having a relationship does, having a partner is you realize 445 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:58.490 that this is not just about you, that this is 446 00:24:58.529 --> 00:25:02.450 a sort of a team and that the team requires balance. 447 00:25:03.190 --> 00:25:09.009 It requires both players to to flourish independently. One can't 448 00:25:09.089 --> 00:25:12.539 eclipse the other, one can't suck all the oxygen out 449 00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:15.440 of the room. And this, I think, especially for sort 450 00:25:15.460 --> 00:25:19.500 of ambitious, busy people, people with egos, this is easy 451 00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:22.369 to lose You know, this is this is hard to do. 452 00:25:22.430 --> 00:25:25.210 This is this is it's easy to slip into sort 453 00:25:25.670 --> 00:25:27.869 of being the dominant one or being the center of 454 00:25:27.910 --> 00:25:31.089 attention because that's what you prefer. But but that's not 455 00:25:31.130 --> 00:25:34.710 what a successful relationship will tolerate. You know, I think 456 00:25:34.730 --> 00:25:36.369 I've been with my wife a long time. We've only 457 00:25:36.390 --> 00:25:38.950 been married maybe four years, but but we've been together 458 00:25:38.990 --> 00:25:42.109 since we were 20. And having someone that you sort 459 00:25:42.170 --> 00:25:45.630 of been with the whole time. also provides, I think, 460 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:49.910 an important amount of perspective. My wife remembers me when 461 00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:54.630 I was 20. She didn't meet me as I accomplished things. 462 00:25:54.670 --> 00:25:59.509 So my accomplishments are not really part of my identity 463 00:25:59.589 --> 00:26:03.480 in the relationship and neither, neither are hers, right? Uh, 464 00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:06.140 the things that she's done or the things that she's 465 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.599 not done because she's been in the relationship, right? Like 466 00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.579 we're two people, we have a connection, we have a 467 00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:17.460 great deal of shared experiences. That's the relationship, not, oh, 468 00:26:17.500 --> 00:26:20.980 you know, I met this person when they had done X, Y, 469 00:26:20.980 --> 00:26:23.049 and Z, and I just so admired that, and I 470 00:26:23.089 --> 00:26:26.069 just wanted to be near that. You know, I think 471 00:26:26.130 --> 00:26:31.470 a lot of relationships start with accomplishments or material success 472 00:26:31.490 --> 00:26:35.930 being part of the people's identity. And this can skew 473 00:26:35.970 --> 00:26:38.109 things in a probably not so healthy way. 474 00:26:38.130 --> 00:26:42.700 And do you feel a sense of Her keeping you grounded. 475 00:26:42.779 --> 00:26:47.769 I know just from afar, seeing the way she makes 476 00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:50.970 fun of you on maybe an Instagram story, it is. 477 00:26:50.990 --> 00:26:55.210 And I don't see, I don't think, from what I've gathered, 478 00:26:55.269 --> 00:26:58.420 you guys don't have professional social media people doing those posts. 479 00:26:58.740 --> 00:27:00.759 It's just you genuinely kind of making fun of each other, 480 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:02.900 her mainly making fun of you and on the farm 481 00:27:02.940 --> 00:27:06.109 or whatever you're doing. And in a way, it's very relatable. 482 00:27:06.309 --> 00:27:10.150 And I think that's what humanizes somebody like you, which 483 00:27:10.210 --> 00:27:12.089 is a good thing that you can have these moments 484 00:27:12.109 --> 00:27:14.210 where you're on stage in front of thousands and thousands 485 00:27:14.230 --> 00:27:17.329 of people or you're in front of a professional football team. 486 00:27:18.470 --> 00:27:21.920 But yet you're also not figuring out how to properly 487 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.799 feed the animals, things like that. So what do

you 488 00:27:25.819 --> 00:27:26.440 think about that? 489 00:27:26.460 --> 00:27:29.170 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of less interested in 490 00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:32.339 like how the relationship helps my brand. Not that that's 491 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:33.039 what you're saying. 492 00:27:33.140 --> 00:27:33.359 Right. 493 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:36.730 But like, I'm less interested in like the appearances that it, 494 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:40.750 the appearances that it presents and the benefits from that. 495 00:27:41.309 --> 00:27:43.849 And more in that like, I guess what I'm saying 496 00:27:43.890 --> 00:27:46.690 is it's not that it helps me be more relatable. 497 00:27:47.170 --> 00:27:51.539 It's that it actually makes me remain a normal person. 498 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:54.460 And that's, I think, very difficult to do when you're 499 00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:58.140 very obsessed with or very dedicated to a specific craft 500 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:02.220 or industry or whatever. So I don't know. I think 501 00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:03.980 it's always been important to me to sort of just 502 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:08.279 remain a normal person and to Maybe hesitate from that 503 00:28:08.859 --> 00:28:12.069 step between like, hey, this is a normal person who's 504 00:28:12.109 --> 00:28:13.930 really good at what they do, who's done this stuff. 505 00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:16.309 And then the kind of person where you meet someone 506 00:28:16.329 --> 00:28:18.329 and you're like, oh, man, that guy's living in his 507 00:28:18.750 --> 00:28:22.250 own universe. You know, like I don't understand how that works. 508 00:28:22.309 --> 00:28:24.390 I don't understand how it doesn't all come crashing down. 509 00:28:24.430 --> 00:28:26.299 But clearly that person is living in their own universe. 510 00:28:26.710 --> 00:28:28.930 that's always sort of been important to me not to do. 511 00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:32.509 I'm not, not sure exactly why, but, but I think 512 00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:35.910 having someone like Samantha, my life sort of does, does 513 00:28:35.990 --> 00:28:41.269 that in that I'm, I am a normal person because, 514 00:28:41.849 --> 00:28:44.109 you know, she doesn't, she doesn't give a shit about 515 00:28:44.130 --> 00:28:46.369 how many books I've sold aside from the fact that, 516 00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:47.839 you know, she wants to make sure that the bills 517 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.289 are paid, but like, That doesn't, you know, sort of 518 00:28:51.450 --> 00:28:54.390 change how she sees me. And, you know, we're talking 519 00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:56.990 about having that sort of inner scorecard earlier. I think 520 00:28:57.009 --> 00:29:00.069 that's also helpful in a relationship because, like, let's say 521 00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:02.359 one of my books came out and it really didn't 522 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:04.900 do well. I'm not even sure we would talk about 523 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:07.430 it like it would because it would. I mean, we 524 00:29:07.470 --> 00:29:09.470 might talk about it and that it might be affecting 525 00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:15.299 my feelings, but it wouldn't like affect anything at home, right? 526 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:19.119 Because we've managed to build a life or a relationship 527 00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:22.279 that's sort of totally independent from those things. 528 00:29:23.150 --> 00:29:23.470 Gotcha. 529 00:29:23.930 --> 00:29:24.130 Okay. 530 00:29:24.150 --> 00:29:25.710 I want to hit on a couple of topics that 531 00:29:25.730 --> 00:29:29.099 I've taken notes on. It's funny. We always seem to, 532 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.279 I never plan on it, but it comes back to 533 00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:35.269 relationships because I just think it's so important. Okay. I 534 00:29:35.309 --> 00:29:37.130 want to talk about the benefits of a daily journal 535 00:29:37.289 --> 00:29:39.420 and you've written about Anne Frank and there's a, a, 536 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:43.920 cool little post online by Derek Sivers about the benefits 537 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:46.880 of a daily journal and that the purpose of doing 538 00:29:46.940 --> 00:29:52.509 it is to understand– Fully encompassing what's happening in that 539 00:29:52.589 --> 00:29:56.769 specific moment so you understand how you felt. Because you 540 00:29:56.809 --> 00:30:00.369 can't necessarily trust distant memories, but you can trust your 541 00:30:00.450 --> 00:30:03.309 diary because your diary tells you what was going on 542 00:30:03.410 --> 00:30:08.779 in that moment. Why should we all keep a daily journal, diary, 543 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:09.809 whatever it may be? 544 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.309 Yeah, no, I know the article you're talking about. I 545 00:30:12.349 --> 00:30:15.230 think in that piece, he's talking about the benefits of 546 00:30:15.250 --> 00:30:17.569 a journal in terms of like, hey, you know, last 547 00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:20.730 time I changed jobs. Here's what I journaled about. And 548 00:30:20.750 --> 00:30:22.890 now that I'm doing it again, I can sort of review. 549 00:30:22.910 --> 00:30:26.269 And I think there is value in that. I love Derek. 550 00:30:27.049 --> 00:30:29.730 I don't use my journal in that way. To me, 551 00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:32.579 it's the process. It's like having a sort of a 552 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:35.619 ritual or routine in the way that like somebody else 553 00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.940 might pray. They don't like keep a running tally of 554 00:30:39.019 --> 00:30:41.740 their prayer routine. And then revisit it to see what 555 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.339 they've been praying about. It's it's the act of the 556 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:50.769 devotion of the process of the experience that provides the value. Right. 557 00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:54.210 And I think it for me, it's it's the process 558 00:30:54.309 --> 00:30:57.730 of in the morning. This is what I do. I 559 00:30:57.769 -->

00:31:01.410 do this every day without fail. I have quiet time 560 00:31:01.430 --> 00:31:04.589 to myself to do it. I'm taking thoughts out of 561 00:31:04.670 --> 00:31:06.880 my head where they're bouncing around and I'm putting them 562 00:31:06.940 --> 00:31:09.529 on the page. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To me, 563 00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:14.630 that's the benefit of of the ritual or it's like 564 00:31:14.849 --> 00:31:17.660 the you do a routine long enough, it turns into ritual. 565 00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:20.240 I think eventually journaling has become a bit of a 566 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:22.720 ritual for me and it helps sort of slow things 567 00:31:22.779 --> 00:31:25.119 down and help center me a little bit. And then, 568 00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:28.180 of course, the process of writing thoughts down is also, 569 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:29.390 you know, a big part of it. 570 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:31.680 What do you write about then? So if you're not, 571 00:31:31.700 --> 00:31:35.880 because I think there could be benefits to both. Because 572 00:31:36.089 --> 00:31:39.710 I do, like, since doing that, I've started keeping one. 573 00:31:40.029 --> 00:31:44.069 And it's fascinating to look back, especially, you know, you've 574 00:31:44.089 --> 00:31:47.549 helped me in numerous stages of me writing my first book. 575 00:31:47.630 --> 00:31:49.490 And I look back at some of my journal entries 576 00:31:49.529 --> 00:31:52.519 and how I felt. So I'll say, one entry may 577 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:57.670 say something like, I'm at 24,438 words. This is a 578 00:31:57.710 --> 00:32:01.470 grind a lot harder than I thought. Must keep going. 579 00:32:01.890 --> 00:32:04.549 Something like that. And I look back and I'm like, 580 00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:06.910 oh man, okay, I remember. And that was a long 581 00:32:06.950 --> 00:32:10.140 time ago. And it was a journey. And then there's 582 00:32:10.180 --> 00:32:14.099 entries obviously leading all the way up to 77,000 words 583 00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:16.380 in what I was doing. And I was really keen 584 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:18.420 on doing that during that process because I wanted to 585 00:32:18.460 --> 00:32:23.380 remember the pain. the tough moments through that process of, 586 00:32:23.539 --> 00:32:27.079 of writing a book. So how I, so I see 587 00:32:27.319 --> 00:32:29.539 the benefits of both. What are, what is your thought 588 00:32:29.559 --> 00:32:32.220 process on, on, on doing it for you? 589 00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:35.480 Yeah. I, and I do a little bit of that too. 590 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.910 So I have one journal that's like a one line 591 00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:41.289 a day journal and you basically write one, what you're 592 00:32:41.309 --> 00:32:44.690 doing on a specific date every day for five years. 593 00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:47.309 So there's five like sections on each page. I've been, 594 00:32:47.390 --> 00:32:48.970 I've been doing this for like three or

three and 595 00:32:48.990 --> 00:32:51.509 a half years and So I can see like, you know, 596 00:32:51.529 --> 00:32:54.569 a couple weeks ago I was writing in it and 597 00:32:54.589 --> 00:32:57.170 I was like, oh, I started the Tiger Woods section 598 00:32:57.710 --> 00:33:00.410 of Stillness is the Key like today. That's really cool. 599 00:33:01.369 --> 00:33:04.190 And I do I do like that. But mostly it's 600 00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:09.240 it's just the process of like warming up, sitting down. 601 00:33:10.069 --> 00:33:14.470 Talking to myself about what I'm feeling, sort of verbalizing feelings, 602 00:33:14.930 --> 00:33:20.710 verbalizing fears, verbalizing anxieties, talking to myself about habits that 603 00:33:20.750 --> 00:33:23.029 maybe I like or I don't like. You know, like 604 00:33:23.069 --> 00:33:26.829 I was writing in my journal yesterday that like I've 605 00:33:26.910 --> 00:33:30.200 watched what time I go to bed creep up and up. 606 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:33.099 or creep later and later, but the time that I 607 00:33:33.140 --> 00:33:35.529 wake up stay the same. So it's like, how do 608 00:33:35.569 --> 00:33:37.220 you think this is going to go, right? Like you're 609 00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.630 going to be more and more tired and this is 610 00:33:39.650 --> 00:33:42.930 going to, obviously the consequences of this are going to 611 00:33:42.950 --> 00:33:45.950 pop up somewhere. And so it's just sort of about 612 00:33:46.130 --> 00:33:49.750 having a little conversation with yourself. There might be value, 613 00:33:50.089 --> 00:33:52.970 and I've certainly gotten value out of revisiting that conversation 614 00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:55.950 from time to time, But I think it's primarily the 615 00:33:56.410 --> 00:34:01.480 just authentic, raw, in-the-moment conversation that most of the values created. 616 00:34:02.420 --> 00:34:05.299 There's value in getting it out and knowing this is 617 00:34:05.319 --> 00:34:08.780 a daily ritual, like a morning pages type exercise? 618 00:34:08.889 --> 00:34:11.510 Yeah, yeah. It's like morning pages. But it's also just 619 00:34:11.550 --> 00:34:14.730 like I don't need to check in on my sleep 620 00:34:14.769 --> 00:34:18.090 habit like a year from now. I need to fix 621 00:34:18.150 --> 00:34:21.050 it now. Yeah. It's like, hey, like, why don't you 622 00:34:21.070 --> 00:34:22.909 try to go to bed earlier tonight? Oh, yeah, sure. 623 00:34:23.030 --> 00:34:25.070 You know, OK. And then that's what I did. So 624 00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:28.519 it's more about just sort of like maintenance and checking 625 00:34:28.659 --> 00:34:31.300 in and just sort of being on top of of 626 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.940 where you are in the moment. If I keep finding 627 00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:36.119 that I'm writing about how tired I am, maybe I'm 628 00:34:36.139 --> 00:34:37.920 going to do that. Or if I keep writing about. 629 00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:40.320 you know, how stressed I feel, maybe I need to 630 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:42.019 look at all the things that I've been saying yes 631 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:46.230 to or whatever. Maybe if I'm arguing with my wife, well, 632 00:34:46.269 --> 00:34:49.190 what's the source of that? Who's responsible for it? What's 633 00:34:49.210 --> 00:34:53.130 contributing it? What's a potential solution, you know? And so 634 00:34:53.150 --> 00:34:56.610 it's just, I think, about resolving the things that are 635 00:34:56.650 --> 00:34:57.800 happening as they're happening. 636 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:05.179 Ryan, what I've gathered now doing this 350 plus times is, yeah, 637 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:06.900 that's just a wow in itself, I guess. Now I 638 00:35:06.940 --> 00:35:09.360 take a step back. But there's really two people. The 639 00:35:09.429 --> 00:35:11.369 number one question I receive usually in a Q & 640 00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:13.889 A is, what do you find in common amongst all 641 00:35:13.929 --> 00:35:17.150 those people? And you're exhibiting it right now. And those 642 00:35:17.230 --> 00:35:20.280 two things that I would say is that those people 643 00:35:20.570 --> 00:35:24.079 that are finding ways to sustain excellence in their own right, 644 00:35:24.619 --> 00:35:28.260 as you have, is they are incredibly thoughtful people. and 645 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:32.800 very intentional in their behavior. So they take those moments 646 00:35:32.860 --> 00:35:36.769 to reflect, to think, to analyze with the experiments they 647 00:35:36.809 --> 00:35:41.769 do based upon their learnings. And then they decisively put 648 00:35:41.789 --> 00:35:44.030 it into action and then are in a constant state 649 00:35:44.110 --> 00:35:47.329 of being able to reflect and adjust. How do you 650 00:35:47.369 --> 00:35:51.190 think about the acts of thoughtfulness and intention? 651 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:54.000 No, I think that's a great way to put it. 652 00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:56.579 I mean, I think it's Winston Churchill was saying that 653 00:35:56.599 --> 00:36:01.559 he sort of interrogates himself at the end of each day. 654 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.409 He wants to make sure that he actually did something effective, 655 00:36:04.449 --> 00:36:07.630 that he wasn't just pawing at the ground. Seneca talks 656 00:36:07.670 --> 00:36:11.409 about putting each day up for review. I think you 657 00:36:11.449 --> 00:36:13.789 have to be intentional because if you're not, what are 658 00:36:13.809 --> 00:36:17.559 you doing? You're just following your nature. You're just following 659 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.769 what feels right. Easiest most of the time you have 660 00:36:21.789 --> 00:36:24.429 to sort of be there checking in and evaluating and 661 00:36:24.449 --> 00:36:26.929 the way that you know an athlete has coaches that 662 00:36:26.969 --> 00:36:29.440 are there to sort of do this for them so 663 00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:32.539 in a way that process is sort of externalized

right 664 00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:35.820 it's like. If you're not giving your full effort, they 665 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:38.300 have a heart rate monitor that's watching you. You know, 666 00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.530 they can see whether you're in the weight room, whether 667 00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:43.610 you're putting in the reps. They can see whether you're 668 00:36:43.630 --> 00:36:45.769 catching the ball. And then, you know, when you do 669 00:36:45.809 --> 00:36:47.969 your job at the end of the week, they can 670 00:36:48.010 --> 00:36:50.179 see whether you put points on the board or not. Or, 671 00:36:50.250 --> 00:36:53.130 you know, whether you blew your coverage or not. You know, 672 00:36:53.170 --> 00:36:56.440 whether you got on base or not. Life is a 673 00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:59.500 little bit less difficult. black and white than that for 674 00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:02.110 the rest of us. So if you want to sort 675 00:37:02.139 --> 00:37:04.070 of be improving, if you want to be growing, if 676 00:37:04.090 --> 00:37:07.150 you want to do well at whatever it is you're doing, 677 00:37:07.670 --> 00:37:12.530 that can't be externalized. It's ultimately on you. Nobody cares 678 00:37:12.550 --> 00:37:16.489 if I write or don't write, you know, nobody cares 679 00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:20.360 if I put in the extra effort or not, in 680 00:37:20.389 --> 00:37:23.659 the sense that I don't get the immediate feedback or 681 00:37:23.699 --> 00:37:27.420 validation or yelling, if I'm dropping off, like it just 682 00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:31.460 the sort of cause and effect in my profession. And 683 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.639 I think in, you know, in doing podcasts, and, and 684 00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:37.519 being an influence, any of these things that these sort 685 00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:41.579 of newer professions, the cause and effect is much more 686 00:37:41.699 --> 00:37:44.280 ambiguous or it's much more subtle or it happens over 687 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:47.179 a longer period of time. And so if you want 688 00:37:47.219 --> 00:37:49.960 to keep doing what you do, you have to stay 689 00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.260 on top of yourself. And I think journaling is one 690 00:37:52.300 --> 00:37:52.940 way to do that. 691 00:37:54.099 --> 00:37:57.449 There is a feature in a leader that I really 692 00:37:57.570 --> 00:38:00.889 admire when I can tell that they put in the 693 00:38:00.949 --> 00:38:04.489 effort and that's the willingness and being able to change 694 00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:08.210 your mind. In politics today, it seems like it's a 695 00:38:08.289 --> 00:38:13.469 bad thing, which I don't like. And there's a part 696 00:38:13.489 --> 00:38:16.929 of your book where you even wrote about Hitler. And 697 00:38:17.210 --> 00:38:21.329 one of the biggest issues, among others, he's got many, obviously, 698 00:38:21.809 --> 00:38:25.150 but he spent his short prison sentence after World War 699 00:38:25.170 --> 00:38:28.329 I reading the classics of history. And instead of learning anything, 700 00:38:28.369 --> 00:38:32.250 he said, quote, I recognize the correctness of my views. 701 00:38:32.349 --> 00:38:37.590 And you said that's That's not wisdom. That's insanity. Why, 702 00:38:37.969 --> 00:38:42.030 as leaders, do some feel like they are right or 703 00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:45.530 that they can't change their mind? Because I think we 704 00:38:45.710 --> 00:38:47.650 all can analyze the people we look up to and 705 00:38:47.670 --> 00:38:50.250 the leaders who have been most effective, and they're the 706 00:38:50.349 --> 00:38:53.989 ones who are constantly trying to be less wrong, constantly 707 00:38:54.110 --> 00:38:58.239 seeking more. So I'm just always puzzled by this because 708 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.500 it seems like the answers are right there for us 709 00:39:00.539 --> 00:39:03.510 to say, No, no matter what, we're never going to 710 00:39:03.550 --> 00:39:05.820 have this thing figured out. It's about the journey. 711 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.199 Well, I think we know that we want confidence in 712 00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:12.340 a leader, right? Because we're not going to follow someone 713 00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:14.860 who doesn't think they're going in the right direction, right? 714 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:19.519 So we want someone who has done the work, who 715 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:22.730 knows what they're talking about, who's picked a good course 716 00:39:22.769 --> 00:39:26.050 of action and is sort of sticking to it despite 717 00:39:26.090 --> 00:39:28.590 the fact that it's hard, right? Or despite the fact 718 00:39:28.630 --> 00:39:31.199 that they're getting criticized for it, right? You know, you 719 00:39:31.219 --> 00:39:33.760 think someone like Lincoln in the Civil War, you know, 720 00:39:33.800 --> 00:39:36.679 at the beginning of the war, people said, you could 721 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.940 never win this, you've got to give the South what 722 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:41.840 they want. And then even throughout the throughout the war, 723 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:44.880 even the people that had sort of advocated for the 724 00:39:44.920 --> 00:39:47.320 war in the first place were were like some of 725 00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:49.860 the most fair weather supporters, they were the ones that said, 726 00:39:50.230 --> 00:39:52.550 We had to settle. We had to negotiate, you know, 727 00:39:52.730 --> 00:39:55.170 over and over again. They wanted Lincoln to sort of 728 00:39:55.610 --> 00:39:59.139 do anything but stick with the course that he was on. 729 00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:02.440 And and so we we know that's what a good 730 00:40:02.500 --> 00:40:06.360 leader looks like. Right. The problem is it's very easy 731 00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:10.570 to act like that, like ego can very easily masquerade 732 00:40:10.670 --> 00:40:14.409 as a similar as a similar mindset. So we think 733 00:40:15.010 --> 00:40:19.239

privately Lincoln was wracked with doubts and he was constantly 734 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:21.429 looking for where he was wrong. He was willing to 735 00:40:21.489 --> 00:40:24.469 pursue all these options. It was that, you know, when 736 00:40:24.489 --> 00:40:26.250 he would pursue them and when you really look at 737 00:40:26.269 --> 00:40:28.070 the facts, it was like, no, this isn't going to work. 738 00:40:28.130 --> 00:40:31.809 They're not actually serious about surrendering. These negotiations are being 739 00:40:31.849 --> 00:40:34.389 done in bad faith that another war will break out 740 00:40:34.429 --> 00:40:37.139 very quickly, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So Lincoln 741 00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:39.119 was what you were talking about, someone who had a 742 00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:43.460 mix of of both confidence, but also humility. He was 743 00:40:43.659 --> 00:40:45.719 he was trying to be less wrong all the time. 744 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:47.920 even though he was pretty sure that what he was 745 00:40:47.960 --> 00:40:50.719 doing was right. Then you have someone who comes along, 746 00:40:50.739 --> 00:40:55.039 whether it's a Donald Trump or any liberal politician that 747 00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.360 wants to pretend that difficult problems have very simple solutions, 748 00:40:59.780 --> 00:41:04.119 this I alone can fix it, that it can all 749 00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.670 be captured in a tweet, that, you know, I'm never 750 00:41:06.710 --> 00:41:09.289 going to admit I'm wrong. I'm not going to acknowledge 751 00:41:09.329 --> 00:41:12.670 any of the obvious flaws in my plans. So we 752 00:41:12.710 --> 00:41:16.300 have What we really have is an epidemic of ego 753 00:41:16.829 --> 00:41:22.099 that the public not being informed, lacking wisdom themselves. easily 754 00:41:22.179 --> 00:41:26.480 mistakes for confidence and strength. And the truth is, ego 755 00:41:26.559 --> 00:41:30.320 is about as far from strength as you can find. 756 00:41:30.380 --> 00:41:35.050 It's actually usually very fragile, very insecure, based on nothing. 757 00:41:35.449 --> 00:41:38.530 But we in this sort of social media world, in 758 00:41:38.570 --> 00:41:45.550 this time of political polarization, gravitate towards ego because it's 759 00:41:45.630 --> 00:41:49.309 more seductive than confidence, and frankly, a lot more common 760 00:41:49.349 --> 00:41:49.809 as well. 761 00:41:52.050 --> 00:41:55.460 Really, though? You think? I mean, that's the opposite of 762 00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:56.500 how I feel, though. 763 00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:59.079 It's hard to win an election going, this is a 764 00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:01.460 really tough problem, and lots of people are going to 765 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:05.159 have to sacrifice. Think about it. Again, I don't think 766 00:42:05.179 --> 00:42:08.190 this is political, but the left's problem is that Trump 767 00:42:08.230 --> 00:42:12.170 has come in and done a bunch of executive orders, 768 00:42:12.809 --> 00:42:17.500 made emergency declarations, Generally sort of acted as if the 769 00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:21.239 president is the most powerful person in government, which undermines 770 00:42:21.539 --> 00:42:24.559 Congress and the Senate and the legal system and sort 771 00:42:24.579 --> 00:42:27.780 of overrides our checks and balances. Right. Again, I don't 772 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:30.199 think it's controversial. This is what people on the left think. 773 00:42:31.210 --> 00:42:34.630 Then when you watch the Democratic debates, what is Kamala 774 00:42:34.670 --> 00:42:37.460 Harris and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren saying they're going 775 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:39.639 to do? Do they go, look, it's going to be 776 00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:43.820 a long, hard slog to re-empower Congress and re-empower the 777 00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:46.760 Senate and get our branches of government working in concert 778 00:42:46.780 --> 00:42:48.889 with each other again? And that to do this is 779 00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:52.590 going to require compromise because the American system requires compromise. 780 00:42:52.969 --> 00:42:55.710 Majorities are in some cases super majorities, and it's not 781 00:42:55.750 --> 00:42:58.090 as simple as just having one more vote than the 782 00:42:58.150 --> 00:43:01.219 other side. No, they go, my first day in office, 783 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:04.139 I'm going to fix immigration. And my first day in office, 784 00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:06.880 I'm going to fix health care, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 785 00:43:07.219 --> 00:43:11.059 which of course is not only exactly what Trump has 786 00:43:11.099 --> 00:43:15.059 claimed to do. Trump also just proved that it's not possible, right? 787 00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:17.940 Like Trump hasn't been able to do any of those things. 788 00:43:18.019 --> 00:43:19.800 And all these orders have been, for the most part, 789 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:23.360 ineffective because that's not how the system is designed to work. 790 00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:27.469 And so the idea of selling to, say, the electorate 791 00:43:27.690 --> 00:43:31.929 or to your audience, the self-help audience wants to be 792 00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:35.329 told the secret that if you just wish for something, 793 00:43:35.369 --> 00:43:38.130 you'll get it. But the truth is an honest author 794 00:43:38.150 --> 00:43:41.579 would never write that because that's preposterous, right? And a 795 00:43:41.659 --> 00:43:45.440 truly honest, a truly confident, a truly great politician is 796 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:48.019 not going to make promises that can't possibly be kept. 797 00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:50.559 They're going to they're going to try to tell people 798 00:43:50.579 --> 00:43:54.230 the truth. And the reality is the truth often hurts. 799 00:43:55.730 --> 00:43:58.570 Is that just the way it is? Is there I mean, 800 00:43:58.889 --> 00:44:00.829 maybe it is. I'm curious. Is that

the way it 801 00:44:00.889 --> 00:44:02.989 has to be in order for this thing to work? 802 00:44:03.030 --> 00:44:05.130 Is that just the machine or the the game that 803 00:44:05.170 --> 00:44:07.429 we're all playing? Or what do you think? 804 00:44:08.070 --> 00:44:11.440 No, I mean, I think the United States has got 805 00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:15.659 a decently rich history of people who actually put the 806 00:44:15.699 --> 00:44:17.820 time and energy in to figure out how the system 807 00:44:17.860 --> 00:44:21.260 worked and tried to get it to work and got 808 00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:23.800 it to work on all different sides. You have Lincoln, 809 00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:25.559 who's a Republican, who gets it to work during the 810 00:44:25.619 --> 00:44:29.139 Civil War. You have Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s, who's 811 00:44:29.179 --> 00:44:33.409 probably the most sort of effective parliamentarian in American history. 812 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:37.539 He wasn't a particularly great president, but he does pass 813 00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:41.440 civil rights and he passes a number of his sort 814 00:44:41.460 --> 00:44:44.199 of great society programs, many of which are still with 815 00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:50.719 us today. There are certainly great leaders. George Washington didn't 816 00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:53.480 win the American Revolution telling people what they wanted to hear. 817 00:44:53.500 --> 00:44:57.679 He did it through sort of self-sacrifice and leadership and 818 00:44:58.199 --> 00:45:02.510 strength and courage. So, I mean, I think there's precedent 819 00:45:02.570 --> 00:45:08.449 for it. Whether we're at a painful enough place that 820 00:45:08.489 --> 00:45:10.730 we can accept that we're not going to get everything 821 00:45:10.769 --> 00:45:13.929 we want exactly the way we want it is probably 822 00:45:14.710 --> 00:45:16.030 a totally separate question. 823 00:45:17.530 --> 00:45:24.670 Let's pivot a bit to stillness. Why is this the 824 00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:30.119 third book from Obstacle and Ego and now Stillness? Why 825 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:34.139 is this the focus of your latest work? 826 00:45:35.480 --> 00:45:38.300 So I think the books work well together. You know, 827 00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:41.860 Obstacle is about how you overcome difficulties in life. It's 828 00:45:41.989 --> 00:45:45.570 much more about sort of brute force and energy and 829 00:45:45.630 --> 00:45:49.949 passion and drive. Ego is about what I think our 830 00:45:50.010 --> 00:45:55.150 biggest obstacle actually is, you know, ourselves, our own sort 831 00:45:55.170 --> 00:46:01.630 of delusions and selfishness and self-importance. And then stillness to 832 00:46:01.690 --> 00:46:06.469 me is kind of what these things are working towards, right? 833 00:46:06.489 --> 00:46:10.869 When you remove ego, you make room for stillness. You 834 00:46:10.909 --> 00:46:16.130 need stillness to be able to think really clearly about 835 00:46:16.190 --> 00:46:18.349 the obstacles that you face in life. You know, you 836 00:46:18.389 --> 00:46:23.440 need stillness to rest after you overcome obstacles. So I 837 00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:25.739 think the books work well together in that sense. They're 838 00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:30.119 sort of a progression. But I mean, the shorter answer 839 00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:32.679 is like, it's just what I was really interested in 840 00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.480 and what I felt like was where I wanted to 841 00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.280 go creatively. It's what I felt I needed more of 842 00:46:39.380 --> 00:46:44.159 in my own life. And that has been a decent 843 00:46:44.590 --> 00:46:49.230 approximation for me over the years of what readers end 844 00:46:49.309 --> 00:46:51.289 up being interested in as well. I try to write 845 00:46:51.309 --> 00:46:55.860 books not from some position of superiority, but from a 846 00:46:55.889 --> 00:46:59.469 position of like, this is something I'm trying to work on. 847 00:46:59.489 --> 00:47:01.570 This is something I would like to be better at. 848 00:47:01.610 --> 00:47:04.250 This is something that I benefit from. And in the 849 00:47:04.309 --> 00:47:07.510 process of researching and writing and thinking about it, I 850 00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:10.099 get a little bit closer to it myself. And then 851 00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:13.360 I've also produced something of value to the reader. 852 00:47:14.900 --> 00:47:18.800 One of the stories is about Sean Green and breaking 853 00:47:18.860 --> 00:47:22.590 out of a slump. And one of, uh, the tactics 854 00:47:22.849 --> 00:47:25.329 used is to slow his thinking. And I think of 855 00:47:25.409 --> 00:47:31.150 another parallel example is the world of golf. Not necessarily Tiger, 856 00:47:31.210 --> 00:47:34.889 but I think of Brooks Koepka, who's having immense success 857 00:47:34.949 --> 00:47:37.570 right now. And if you have listened and read what 858 00:47:37.630 --> 00:47:40.670 Brooks has said about the way he approaches golf is 859 00:47:40.789 --> 00:47:43.530 he walks up to the ball, he gets a number, 860 00:47:43.630 --> 00:47:46.150 meaning the distance, he checks the wind, and he hits 861 00:47:46.190 --> 00:47:49.889 the shot. Doesn't think very much, really slows it down, 862 00:47:50.030 --> 00:47:52.809 and he just goes and plays. When he gets on 863 00:47:52.829 --> 00:47:55.809 the green, he reads the putt quickly and he hits 864 00:47:55.849 --> 00:47:59.690 the putt. And he's had as much success as anybody recently. 865 00:48:00.590 --> 00:48:04.170 How can we translate the Sean Green example of slowing 866 00:48:04.210 --> 00:48:05.889 your thinking to get out of a slump or the 867 00:48:05.929 --> 00:48:09.929 Brooks Koepka method of getting your number and hitting the 868 00:48:10.010 --> 00:48:14.190 shot when we're, let's say, our daily lives of leading 869 00:48:14.250 --> 00:48:17.199 a team? The avatar I usually paint,

Ryan, is this 870 00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:20.300 mid-level manager guy. who works at a big company and 871 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.920 they're striving to grow and exceed goals and they're ambitious 872 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:27.659 and they eventually want to get promoted again. And they 873 00:48:27.739 --> 00:48:31.630 want to use stillness in their life and learn from 874 00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:35.730 these stories of history from these athletes into the business world. 875 00:48:35.789 --> 00:48:37.389 What advice do you give them? 876 00:48:38.670 --> 00:48:41.820 Yeah, I think it's a, it's golf's a great example. 877 00:48:41.860 --> 00:48:46.440 Baseball is another great example of, of, of why, why 878 00:48:46.579 --> 00:48:50.750 overthinking can be dangerous. Yogi Berra's line was, you can't 879 00:48:50.849 --> 00:48:53.170 hit and think at the same time. There's just not 880 00:48:53.409 --> 00:48:54.409 enough space. 881 00:48:54.130 --> 00:48:54.690 There, right? 882 00:48:55.170 --> 00:48:57.550 Brooks is interesting because he does have that sort of 883 00:48:57.650 --> 00:49:00.130 in the moment-ness, but then he also talks about how 884 00:49:00.150 --> 00:49:02.659 he's sort of driven by anger and proving people wrong. 885 00:49:02.699 --> 00:49:06.079 So it'll be interesting to see how he balances those 886 00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:08.860 two approaches. But I think that the point is when 887 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:11.300 you're sitting down or you're standing up to hit a 888 00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:13.539 golf ball or you're sitting down to write or you're 889 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:16.900 sitting down to a staff meeting or you have a 890 00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:20.289 big pitch you're making, You have to be fully in 891 00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:22.929 the moment. You have to be fully engaged in what 892 00:49:22.949 --> 00:49:25.150 you're doing. Your mind can't be somewhere else. If you 893 00:49:25.170 --> 00:49:27.590 think about it with golf, golf is such a humbling 894 00:49:27.630 --> 00:49:29.989 game because when you approach the ball and you tell 895 00:49:30.010 --> 00:49:33.230 yourself you're just going to hit it a mile, that's 896 00:49:33.309 --> 00:49:36.659 precisely when you whiff it, right? When you jerk your 897 00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:39.500 head up to follow the ball, that's when you shank 898 00:49:39.539 --> 00:49:41.960 the shot. Golf is like one of those weird games 899 00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:44.719 where the more you're thinking about it, And the harder 900 00:49:44.739 --> 00:49:47.530 you're trying to do it, usually the worse you are 901 00:49:47.650 --> 00:49:49.969 at it. And so it requires this sort of balance 902 00:49:50.829 --> 00:49:54.659 of both being fully engaged and then also letting go. 903 00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:57.409 And I think life is the same way. I mean, 904 00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.420 When you go into, let's say you have to call 905 00:50:01.460 --> 00:50:03.679 a client who's not behaving properly or you have to 906 00:50:03.699 --> 00:50:06.539 have a confrontation with an employee. If you're going into 907 00:50:06.579 --> 00:50:10.019 that with a very rigid understanding of how it's going 908 00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:12.110 to go and what you're going to get out of 909 00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.110 it and what you have to say, what you want 910 00:50:14.130 --> 00:50:17.739 to get off your chest, I know from my own experiences, 911 00:50:17.760 --> 00:50:21.019 those are precisely the situations that spiral out of control. 912 00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:23.280 Because instead of going in and going, I'm going to 913 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:26.320 have this conversation and here's the general outcome that I'd 914 00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:29.739 like to get to. I'm willing to sort of weave 915 00:50:29.780 --> 00:50:33.179 and bob and coast my way there, whatever it takes. 916 00:50:34.329 --> 00:50:36.380 I'm in this to do it right, is a very 917 00:50:36.420 --> 00:50:39.079 different approach than like, I'm going to shove this down 918 00:50:39.099 --> 00:50:41.420 their throat. And if they don't like it, those are 919 00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.300 the situations where the tension you're bringing into it is 920 00:50:45.400 --> 00:50:50.090 actually exacerbating it, making it worse. And so what I'm 921 00:50:50.110 --> 00:50:52.110 really talking about in that chapter is just sort of 922 00:50:52.190 --> 00:50:55.449 how do you push all the expectations? How do you 923 00:50:55.469 --> 00:50:59.909 push the past experiences? How do you push the anxieties 924 00:50:59.969 --> 00:51:03.289 about the future out of your mind? And you're just 925 00:51:03.489 --> 00:51:05.550 fully engaged with what's in front of you. 926 00:51:07.219 --> 00:51:12.559 This ability to live in the moment. One thing about 927 00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:15.900 you as your work has become more vibrant, it's cool 928 00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:18.559 to see kind of from afar and talking to you 929 00:51:18.599 --> 00:51:21.539 along the way over the years now of seeing you 930 00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.239 out there in front of these incredible groups. I'm fascinated 931 00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:28.420 to learn a little bit briefly here while we have 932 00:51:28.460 --> 00:51:32.940 a few minutes about about your process leading up to giving. 933 00:51:33.380 --> 00:51:35.219 For example, I recently saw you in front of the 934 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:39.639 Cleveland Browns, and they gave everybody there your books, multiple books, 935 00:51:40.179 --> 00:51:42.349 and I believe a coin, correct? 936 00:51:42.489 --> 00:51:42.650 Yeah. 937 00:51:43.210 --> 00:51:45.949 And you can talk about that as well. But how 938 00:51:46.429 --> 00:51:49.070 do you get ready and then deliver a message to 939 00:51:49.130 --> 00:51:53.010 a group of of professional athletes that perhaps you look 940 00:51:53.090 --> 00:51:54.829 up to or you think, I can't believe I'm in 941

00:51:54.849 --> 00:51:57.329 this room, or maybe you don't think that. I'm just 942 00:51:57.889 --> 00:52:00.869 wondering about your, probably more selfishly than anything, but I'm 943 00:52:00.889 --> 00:52:04.070 wondering about your mindset leading up to that moment. What 944 00:52:04.110 --> 00:52:07.119 happened then during the time and then as well afterwards? 945 00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:10.340 Yeah. So what they what they ended up giving also, 946 00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:11.940 and I think this pertains to what we're talking about. 947 00:52:11.980 --> 00:52:14.619 I have a coin and we make it for Daily Stoic. 948 00:52:14.699 --> 00:52:17.340 I carry in my pocket. It just says memento mori. 949 00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:19.380 And then on the back, it has a quote from 950 00:52:19.420 --> 00:52:22.300 Marcus Aurelius. And it says, you could leave life right now. 951 00:52:22.360 --> 00:52:24.869 Let that determine what you do and say and think. 952 00:52:25.789 --> 00:52:28.250 And I find that having that reminder on me does 953 00:52:28.349 --> 00:52:30.929 help me get a little bit more in the moment. 954 00:52:30.969 --> 00:52:34.360 It helps me you know, not think too much about 955 00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:36.179 the talk that I'm going to give, but it also 956 00:52:36.639 --> 00:52:39.000 makes me not take the talk that I'm about to 957 00:52:39.039 --> 00:52:42.820 give for granted. I mean, what I, I go into 958 00:52:42.860 --> 00:52:45.199 a talk in the, in the way, probably not that 959 00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:48.849 dissimilar than an athlete or anyone that does a, you know, 960 00:52:48.869 --> 00:52:51.190 a performer that does what they do. I, I have 961 00:52:51.230 --> 00:52:53.710 a bit of a routine. Uh, I try to have 962 00:52:53.769 --> 00:52:56.650 like a certain set of clothes that I wear, you know, 963 00:52:56.670 --> 00:52:59.369 so I'm not like stressed about what I'm choosing or 964 00:52:59.449 --> 00:53:03.940 not choosing. Um, I try to work out beforehand. I 965 00:53:03.980 --> 00:53:06.500 try to listen to music going into it. One of 966 00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:09.079 the hardest parts about giving talks to sports teams, for instance, 967 00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:11.449 is that because it's such a cool experience, it does 968 00:53:11.530 --> 00:53:14.230 mess with the routine. So it's like, I like to, 969 00:53:14.889 --> 00:53:17.309 there's always this tension between how early they want you 970 00:53:17.349 --> 00:53:20.489 to get there and when you want to get there. Right. 971 00:53:20.570 --> 00:53:22.829 And so it's like, you know, the sports team was like, Hey, 972 00:53:22.889 --> 00:53:25.940 come at 10 o'clock tomorrow. And, uh, you know, then 973 00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:28.679 you'll talk to the team around six. And it's like, 974 00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:32.280 that's a really cool experience, but Am I going to 975 00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:34.530 be in the right headspace having just hung out with 976 00:53:34.590 --> 00:53:37.610 people for eight hours? And then I'm going. So it's 977 00:53:38.449 --> 00:53:41.829 somewhat about managing energy. It's about, you know, sort of 978 00:53:42.329 --> 00:53:45.369 funneling my focus towards where I'm going at the end 979 00:53:45.409 --> 00:53:47.590 of the day or if it's at the beginning of 980 00:53:47.610 --> 00:53:49.719 the day, like what my morning routine was like. So 981 00:53:50.179 --> 00:53:53.579 it's just kind of a process of warming up, of 982 00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:56.579 putting together beforehand what I think is a talk that 983 00:53:56.920 --> 00:53:59.869 makes sense for that specific audience and And then I 984 00:53:59.909 --> 00:54:04.869 go into it very confident because I don't know if 985 00:54:06.690 --> 00:54:09.260 it's exactly what the audience needs, but I know that 986 00:54:09.380 --> 00:54:11.360 I know what I'm talking about. So I know in 987 00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:16.480 this sort of contained way, my material works and my 988 00:54:16.539 --> 00:54:21.400 material is correct. And I know that there's going to 989 00:54:21.420 --> 00:54:23.619 be some people in the audience that that's going to 990 00:54:23.659 --> 00:54:26.820 resonate with. I can't try to please everyone. I can't 991 00:54:26.980 --> 00:54:29.590 live and breathe on what the audience is doing in 992 00:54:29.619 --> 00:54:33.829 the moment because every audience is different, particularly sports audiences. 993 00:54:33.869 --> 00:54:37.829 I was talking to John Gordon, who's an amazing author 994 00:54:37.909 --> 00:54:39.869 who's done tons of stuff in sports. I was talking 995 00:54:39.889 --> 00:54:42.340 to him before I spoke to the Browns because– He 996 00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.460 was actually speaking a couple days after me and had 997 00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:47.059 spoken to a number of other sports teams. He was like, look, 998 00:54:47.420 --> 00:54:49.820 they will not laugh. He was like, it doesn't matter 999 00:54:49.929 --> 00:54:53.670 what you say, the athletes will not laugh. He was like, 1000 00:54:54.190 --> 00:54:58.510 but if you give them something they can use, they'll 1001 00:54:58.530 --> 00:55:01.719 appreciate the experience. And so, you know, having gone into 1002 00:55:01.889 --> 00:55:04.630 like that allowed me to go, okay, so I just 1003 00:55:04.650 --> 00:55:07.389 need to deliver the material because I know the material works. 1004 00:55:07.829 --> 00:55:10.650 I'm not going to be hanging off of, of, you know, 1005 00:55:10.730 --> 00:55:14.190 every punchline and, and waiting to see whether it resonates 1006 00:55:14.250 --> 00:55:16.289 or not. I'm just going to go in, do what 1007 00:55:16.309 --> 00:55:18.389 I got to do and then be done. And then 1008 00:55:18.510 --> 00:55:20.690 as soon as I'm done, I can sort of relax and, 1009 00:55:21.050 --> 00:55:24.989 and go back to being a fan or, you know, 1010 00:55:25.070 --> 00:55:26.849 sort of enjoying the

experience. 1011 00:55:27.510 --> 00:55:31.630 Yeah. I love it, man. Uh, As always, thank you 1012 00:55:32.250 --> 00:55:38.030 for doing this and sharing knowledge. Very appreciative. Where would 1013 00:55:38.050 --> 00:55:40.869 you send my listeners to learn more about you online? 1014 00:55:41.590 --> 00:55:44.349 Yeah, so the book is everywhere books are sold. It's 1015 00:55:44.369 --> 00:55:47.690 called Stillness is the Key. I'm at Ryan Holiday with 1016 00:55:47.809 --> 00:55:50.409 one L on pretty much every platform. And then my 1017 00:55:50.949 --> 00:55:54.940 website is ryanholiday.net. And if you're interested in the stoicism 1018 00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.719 stuff we're talking about, I do a daily email about 1019 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:03.039 stoicism every single morning at dailystoic.com, which you can also 1020 00:56:03.059 --> 00:56:03.599 sign up for. 1021 00:56:03.780 --> 00:56:07.820 It's good stuff. I receive it every morning. Great reminder 1022 00:56:07.900 --> 00:56:11.219 for those listening because you could tell you guys don't 1023 00:56:11.260 --> 00:56:14.539 mail it in, and that's appreciative. It's useful, and that's 1024 00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:17.019 what we're trying to do here as leaders. So, Ryan, 1025 00:56:17.059 --> 00:56:18.739 I know we're going to continue the dialogue as we 1026 00:56:18.780 --> 00:56:21.380 both progress. It's been great talking to you over the years, 1027 00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:23.659 and let's keep it rolling, man. 1028 00:56:24.409 --> 00:56:25.139 Awesome. Thanks. 1029 00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:29.639 Thanks, man. I love the conversations I'm fortunate to have 1030 00:56:29.739 --> 00:56:31.860 with Ryan Holiday. I find him to be such a 1031 00:56:32.019 --> 00:56:38.630 thoughtful and thought-provoking leader. He forces me to question my beliefs, 1032 00:56:39.389 --> 00:56:41.750 and I think that is really healthy as we're all 1033 00:56:41.789 --> 00:56:45.130 striving to be less wrong on a daily basis. A 1034 00:56:45.190 --> 00:56:47.050 few other parts that really stuck out to me, the 1035 00:56:47.130 --> 00:56:51.920 word enough and that delicate balance between being content and 1036 00:56:52.389 --> 00:56:56.239 but also striving for growth and how to manage that. 1037 00:56:56.599 --> 00:57:00.440 Then Michael Jordan and why using anger as fuel is 1038 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:06.059 misguided long-term and why instead we should try to prove 1039 00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:11.010 ourselves and our supporters right as opposed to proving our 1040 00:57:11.090 --> 00:57:14.530 doubters wrong. When we are able to prove them right, 1041 00:57:14.610 --> 00:57:19.610 the feeling of gratitude and contentness and happiness is It's 1042 00:57:19.630 --> 00:57:21.789 so much more powerful than when you're able to prove 1043 00:57:21.829 --> 00:57:24.070 a doubter wrong because then you're just on to the 1044 00:57:24.130 --> 00:57:28.360 next doubter and constantly in a state of anger. That's 1045 00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:31.500 no way to live. And then the power of relationships. 1046 00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:34.000 I love bringing up Ryan's wife because I've had the 1047 00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:36.360 good fortune to hang out with them a few times 1048 00:57:36.420 --> 00:57:39.460 to see how she keeps him humble and down to earth. 1049 00:57:39.519 --> 00:57:41.679 And the tone of his voice always changes a bit 1050 00:57:42.099 --> 00:57:45.289 when he's talking about Sam. I thought that part was great. 1051 00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:48.179 I wanted to say again, thank you for continuing to 1052 00:57:48.199 --> 00:57:50.559 give me the opportunity to do what I love. I'd 1053 00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.119 greatly appreciate it if you spread the word to a 1054 00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:55.880 friend or two, perhaps one that has never listened to 1055 00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:58.559 a podcast or hasn't listened to The Learning Leader Show. 1056 00:57:58.980 --> 00:58:00.530 Tell them to check this out and see if it 1057 00:58:00.570 --> 00:58:04.110 could improve their life as a leader. I certainly think 1058 00:58:04.349 --> 00:58:07.949 it can. Thank you once again. I will talk with 1059 00:58:07.969 --> 00:58:11.489 you next week. Can't wait. I want to let you 1060 00:58:11.530 --> 00:58:13.829 know that we have opened up tickets for our once 1061 00:58:14.030 --> 00:58:17.860 a year personal excellence workshop. We did this last year 1062 00:58:17.880 --> 00:58:20.239 and received incredible reviews. So we wanted to do it 1063 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:23.840 again this year, but make it even better. In addition 1064 00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:26.579 to the topics that I personally teach on, I have 1065 00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:30.260 reached out to the subject domain experts within my network 1066 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.179 to be with us in the room and share their expertise. 1067 00:58:34.659 --> 00:58:38.619 Things like how to harness your personal and professional flywheel 1068 00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:43.769 to build an incredible career. Secrets from a Professional Keynote 1069 00:58:43.889 --> 00:58:49.380 Speaking Coach. How to become a learning machine. How to 1070 00:58:49.480 --> 00:58:52.320 utilize the mindset of a professional athlete in the business 1071 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:56.679 world and so much more. This workshop is ideal for 1072 00:58:56.719 --> 00:59:00.139 you if you want to interact with intellectually curious and 1073 00:59:00.179 --> 00:59:03.369 interesting people. If you want to accelerate your personal and 1074 00:59:03.429 --> 00:59:07.110 professional growth. If you have an open mind and are 1075 00:59:07.230 --> 00:59:09.789 not afraid to be challenged. And if you are currently 1076 00:59:09.809 --> 00:59:12.360 leading a team or have a desire to at some 1077 00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:17.320 point in your future for more details go to ryanhawk.me 1078 00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:21.409 this event is

intentionally kept small so the experience is 1079 00:59:21.570 --> 00:59:25.969 intimate engaging and interactive for more details and to get 1080 00:59:25.989 --> 00:59:28.809 your ticket go to ryanhawk.me. 1081 00:59:33.030 --> 00:59:33.260 All right. 1082 00:59:33.530 --> 00:59:36.090 Thanks, man. Uh, I really appreciate it. It was awesome stuff, 1083 00:59:36.130 --> 00:59:38.610 especially not necessarily knowing where it's going to go. And 1084 00:59:38.670 --> 00:59:40.889 I didn't fully, I mean, I have a, a lot 1085 00:59:40.929 --> 00:59:43.989 of notes, but, uh, I like touching on kind of the, 1086 00:59:44.190 --> 00:59:46.989 the personal aspects of it too. I think that's, that's, that's, uh, 1087 00:59:47.130 --> 00:59:47.730 that's cool to do. 1088 00:59:48.389 --> 00:59:50.269 No, no, that's great. Well, sometimes you do these and 1089 00:59:50.309 --> 00:59:54.570 you're like, I've had this exact conversation like 500 times. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, I've, 1090 00:59:54.730 --> 00:59:56.789 I've never had this one, so I really appreciate it. 1091 00:59:57.110 --> 00:59:57.550 Awesome, man. 1092 00:59:57.570 --> 00:59:58.969 Well, uh, when's the book coming out? 1093 00:59:59.730 --> 01:00:00.309 January. 1094 01:00:01.050 --> 01:00:01.800 Are you excited? I'm excited. 1095 01:00:02.679 --> 01:00:06.860 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my part's pretty much done. You know, 1096 01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:11.719 we're like final edits now. But yeah, I'm really excited 1097 01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.920 to get it out there. I appreciate your kind of help. 1098 01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:18.360 You've impacted more than you probably even realize because you've 1099 01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:21.769 helped without even thinking. And I appreciate that, man. I mean, 1100 01:00:21.789 --> 01:00:23.769 it means a lot to me and it's made a difference. 1101 01:00:24.329 --> 01:00:26.289 Well, look, a heads up I would give you. So 1102 01:00:26.610 --> 01:00:31.219 if you're still doing the final edits, you're approaching, but 1103 01:00:31.380 --> 01:00:34.269 you will soon enter what I think is the hardest 1104 01:00:34.329 --> 01:00:36.170 part of the whole process. Not in terms of work, 1105 01:00:36.210 --> 01:00:40.929 just like, uh, psychologically most difficult because as soon as 1106 01:00:40.969 --> 01:00:44.710 you finish, then like you really finish, finish the book 1107 01:00:44.769 --> 01:00:47.590 is done. So it no longer opera and no longer 1108 01:00:48.090 --> 01:00:50.969 occupies any part of your brain where you're like, Oh, 1109 01:00:51.050 --> 01:00:53.449 I'm improving this. I'm chipping away at it. It's in 1110 01:00:53.469 --> 01:00:55.659 the hands of the editor. You know, my friends are 1111 01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:58.639 giving notes, like I'm thinking about it. And then there's 1112 01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:00.679 a long period. So let's say, you know, the end 1113 01:01:00.699 --> 01:01:03.019 of this month or next month you're done. That still

1114 01:01:03.039 --> 01:01:07.880 gives you three or four months where you're, you can't 1115 01:01:07.989 --> 01:01:12.019 do anything, but also you don't know you haven't, you're 1116 01:01:12.039 --> 01:01:15.000 not getting anything back from it yet. And so that's 1117 01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:18.519 the period where you gotta, you gotta find either the 1118 01:01:18.579 --> 01:01:22.119 next book to throw yourself into. You throw yourself totally 1119 01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:26.090 into writing articles, into relationship building, whatever it is, because 1120 01:01:26.110 --> 01:01:30.389 like you will go crazy, uh, You know what I mean? 1121 01:01:30.409 --> 01:01:34.050 Cause it's like, it's like almost starting right now. And 1122 01:01:34.070 --> 01:01:35.429 I thought about, I actually brought it to my wife. 1123 01:01:35.449 --> 01:01:37.269 We had a long drive home from vacation yesterday. And 1124 01:01:37.309 --> 01:01:40.800 I said, Ryan holiday always has the next one going 1125 01:01:41.019 --> 01:01:43.559 as the previous one's coming out. And now I know 1126 01:01:43.619 --> 01:01:45.940 why I told her like, and I'm trying to think 1127 01:01:45.980 --> 01:01:48.820 of what is the next idea I get. Cause I 1128 01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:51.179 thought that's crazy talk. What's he talking about now? I 1129 01:01:51.219 --> 01:01:56.000 get it because I'm, already thinking, well, I want to, 1130 01:01:56.280 --> 01:01:58.739 there's like changes I may want to make and I, 1131 01:01:58.860 --> 01:02:03.139 and I basically can't. And, um, then I have other ideas, 1132 01:02:03.179 --> 01:02:05.679 but is it an idea for a book? Uh, probably not, 1133 01:02:05.739 --> 01:02:08.320 not big enough there. So I'm like in that in-between 1134 01:02:08.409 --> 01:02:12.530 stage of these little mini ideas and maybe tweaks, but 1135 01:02:12.610 --> 01:02:15.409 now the tweaks are kind of over. Um, so it's, it's, 1136 01:02:15.610 --> 01:02:17.769 it is a challenge, man. Like, how do you, is it, 1137 01:02:17.769 --> 01:02:19.849 do you just follow your curiosity or how do you 1138 01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:22.760 figure out the next big idea that's big enough for 1139 01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:23.139 a book? 1140 01:02:24.010 --> 01:02:26.610 Yeah. You know, you talk to your agent about it. 1141 01:02:26.670 --> 01:02:28.889 Maybe you test it with your audience here or there. 1142 01:02:28.929 --> 01:02:32.090 You see what people are working, what people are responding to. 1143 01:02:32.650 --> 01:02:36.769 But it's it's like because you do all this work, but, 1144 01:02:37.230 --> 01:02:40.360 you know, you're being rewarded by the work. You're you're 1145 01:02:40.420 --> 01:02:42.760 seeing the book get better every day. Well, that stops. 1146 01:02:43.179 --> 01:02:46.380 But you're not yet hearing from fans or getting sales 1147 01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:49.719 numbers or even really hearing from the publisher like, hey, 1148 01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:51.940 it's working right now. So this is kind of can 1149 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:54.440 be a dark period. And so you want to focus 1150 01:02:54.699 --> 01:02:58.260 on some productive use of that energy or it ends 1151 01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:00.820 up just like the mind just sort of like eats itself. 1152 01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:05.250 Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it, man. Like I said, yeah, 1153 01:03:05.369 --> 01:03:07.210 I mean, I could talk to you all day. The 1154 01:03:07.429 --> 01:03:10.309 the feedback I moved around stories and structure. I was 1155 01:03:10.489 --> 01:03:12.050 in Hilton Head when we talked on the phone. I 1156 01:03:12.090 --> 01:03:14.909 remember vividly and I changed some things and it made 1157 01:03:14.929 --> 01:03:19.070 it better. And, uh, that's, uh, it's cool when, you know, 1158 01:03:19.090 --> 01:03:20.880 when there are people out there who help and they 1159 01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:23.440 don't even probably think of it, they just do it. 1160 01:03:23.599 --> 01:03:25.480 And I think that's neat. And I try to do this. 1161 01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:27.679 I try to do the same for other people because 1162 01:03:27.719 --> 01:03:29.710 of guys like you. So thank you, man. Oh, man. 1163 01:03:29.829 --> 01:03:31.929 Well, good luck. And, uh, yeah, send me one as 1164 01:03:31.949 --> 01:03:32.489 soon as you get them. 1165 01:03:32.610 --> 01:03:32.849 I will. 1166 01:03:33.010 --> 01:03:33.230 I will. 1167 01:03:33.389 --> 01:03:34.250 All right, man. Okay. 1168 01:03:34.409 --> 01:03:34.690 Bye. 1169 01:03:34.710 --> 01:03:34.869 See ya.