บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Unlocking Embodied Leadership with Franziska Gonder

adjusting to this life as an au pair, like some of my friends and whatnot. I was just trying to learn so much about my family and the kids and where they came from and ask a lot of questions and what do the kids like and then I made it happen. And so it was always like a really big driver to build connection. And then I went to a very like head heavy university. Jonny Miller (04:58) I feel like every university is probably head heavy, I would say. Franziska Gonder (05:01) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is sort of like implied. But that I did international relations and economics. An organizational design, it's, you know, but I've never really, I feel like I didn't attend a lot of stuff. It was like I built companies while I was studying that kind of, know, that kind of. But Jonny Miller (05:08) What did he study at Aventuras? Franziska Gonder (05:31) I, I felt like actually that my curiosity got in the way of getting good grades in university. I was almost like too curious to just do the bulimic learning thing. You know, to sort of like learn it, throw it into the exam and then forget it. That was sort of like what we had to do in order to keep up with the pace. And so now from where I'm sitting today, from a nervous system standpoint, that was, it was completely overwhelming for the system. I liked so much input and then you had to forget it all in order to make space for the next one. And I always thought like, why am I not being able to keep up with this? Like this is, this feels a lot. So I knew everything. I was able to walk everybody through the explanation of what they needed for the exam. And then I sat in the exam and didn't have the grade grade, but all my friends that I explained it to had great grades. Jonny Miller (06:30) huh. Franziska Gonder (06:31) So that was sort of like my experience with curiosity in university. And then, yeah, I think from there onward, think curiosity is what ultimately like saved me in so many ways. Like after my father's passing and after some things happening in my life that were very traumatic, I think this is how I found somatics. This is how I found nervous system. mastery in many ways is because I didn't believe that therapy was the only thing that could help me because I felt like it wasn't helping me and so You know the digging the questions the and so on that is what ultimately brought me Where I am today and is also helping me to design the life that I'm currently living that I'm really happy about questioning things, you know Jonny Miller (07:14) Mm. Mm. Beautiful. mean, firstly, I've never heard the phrase bulimic learning before, but that's exactly what university learning is. It's like, yeah, you just like ingest as much as you possibly can and then vomit it out at an exam. It's that's exactly what it is. It's it's horrific. And you don't retain most of it. Yeah, I certainly didn't anyway. Yeah, well. Franziska Gonder (07:40) Yes. and then you don't keep it. Yeah, me neither. I learned how to learn, Jonny Miller (07:59) Yeah, I mean, I feel like kids learn like know how to learn anyway. I feel like that's the one thing that schools should be focusing on. Anyhow, coming back to your thread and your story, what was it about? Like, can you remember when you first discovered some form of somatic nervous system exploration? And what was it about that flavor? Franziska Gonder (08:10) Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (08:27) that you think sparked your curiosity, like what led you to kind of keep going down that path. Franziska Gonder (08:30) Mm-hmm. I know exactly when that moment was. So there was this fascination. I was, my father passed away and I was leading a company at the same time. And I was very young, I was like 24. And I was doing a lot of things. And I was in a very, very dark place. I remember being extremely reactive towards everything. I barely slept. I was so anxious all the time. It really felt like from where I'm sitting today, my fight or flight was on all day. And there was a lot of childhood trauma that surfaced around 2013, 14, while I love this was happening. And... I remember sitting in our apartment with my fiance, now husband, and I was pregnant. And I remember thinking like, what is it that makes working out so good? Why is it that in moments of movement, I feel so good? It was such a like humble, simple question. And so I started digging. I just wanted to know sort of like, not just the simple science behind it, but like sort of like everything. And so I build my my own module. My, you know, my own little practice of just sort of like, what is it that makes you feel particularly good? And what I found is that after those moments of movement and I I could witness some of those heavy moments, the heavy thoughts, the heavy emotions with a little bit more capacity. Like I had a little bit more patience with it. And I would notice that if I worked out for instance or moved in general and have spent time with myself prior to like an important meeting or something like that, I would have better questions. I would like, you know, have more curiosity towards the other person, that kind of stuff. I just generally felt a little bit more. I back then I phrased it as like, feel like I'm a better person, I'm a better human. And that was my initial inquiry into, or like my initial leap into this, all of this. Jonny Miller (11:27) Yeah, beautiful. And maybe as context for listeners, would you like to share a little bit about the work you do in the world today and how it is you show up for leaders and humans? Franziska Gonder (11:38) Yeah. Yeah, we're all leaders in our own ways if we allow it. So today I lead a small organization called Leadership That Heals. And it's based on the idea that leadership should, whether it's personal leadership, organizational leadership, team leadership, family leadership, it should be a force of healing. and not just a force of commercial success or success,

whatever that means. And that we all have the chance and the choice to bring a part of ourselves to the places that we are in that make other people feel better about themselves. I always have this idea, this picture in mind. I say it a lot in my coachings with others. say, how do people feel when they walk away from a meeting with you? Do they feel better about themselves? Or do they feel more irritated with themselves? More isolated? More disenchanted? know, yeah, less off. Basically. Jonny Miller (12:49) Mm. Franziska Gonder (13:10) Yeah, so I do that through the somatic lens, helping people to sort of like find the things that get in the way of them being that whole self. Not the person that is at the mercy of their emotions, but like understands how those emotions can also fuel relationships. Like when I feel sad, you know, can I set a boundary around that? When I feel exhausted. What is that? How do I relate to other people as a result and what can I do about it? Jonny Miller (13:44) Yeah, that's beautiful. And what are some of the things in your experience that lead to you or someone being able to show up for a conversation or an interaction and the other person leaving that feeling like, I actually feel like a little bit more alive myself, like rejuvenated. Cause I think that's a really beautiful lens. Can you think of any kind of, what are some of the factors or the pieces that play into that? Franziska Gonder (14:05) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So if we assume that what we're talking about has something to do with like... Like kind of like the field where somatic awareness and somatic intelligence, so the perception of ourselves internally basically, right, how we feel ourselves relates also to relational intelligence or the relational field in general. And so if I know, if I understand myself a little bit better, if I have spent a solid amount of time radically self-inquiring about where some of my behaviors come from or why I behave a certain way. Then I also have more relational capacity to do that with and for others. So if I... You can, or let me zoom out for a moment, I think it's multifaceted obviously, right? There's like emotional cues that someone is sending. You enter the meeting room and you say, and you can notice there's some heavy energy in the room. Everybody senses it probably. Everybody has experienced it before, but nobody's willing to say something. But you are, because you're comfortable with feeling those things, you're comfortable with heavy energy. You're not just trying to like, Jonny Miller (15:32) Mm. Right. Franziska Gonder (15:41) step away from it or like, you know, not even look at it. You're like, do you guys feel that energy too? Because I do. What's going on? Like, do you want to talk about it? What do we all want to turn this into walking meeting? Maybe, you know, whatever, whatever sort of like lightens the load a little bit. And then we obviously also have the idea around like boundaries, right? Or

like as a Jonny Miller (15:42) Right. Yeah. Franziska Gonder (16:11) boundaries as a power play versus boundaries as a relationship enabler. So usually in the relational field, we perceive boundaries as like, here's how I save myself. Here's how I protect myself from you because you could, you know, you could be doing something to me because you're in a bad mood. If I'm comfortable perceiving you in a bad mood or in a heavy mood or whatever it is, then I can also say like, hey, Johnny, I see Jonny Miller (16:16) Mmm. Hmm. Franziska Gonder (16:42) this is a bit of a hard day for you. Do we want to postpone this? Or is there something you want to share maybe upfront that would help you to kind of like leave behind wherever you're coming from right now? Or I could do this collectively and say like... Jonny Miller (16:55) Hmm. Franziska Gonder (17:01) Is there anything that we all want to share about where we're coming from right now in order to of like presence ourselves into this room and become aware of what everybody's bringing? And if I then allow people to say, actually feel really tired today, or I feel really joyful, I had a really big win and I can witness someone in that big win and be like, hell yeah, right? Like fantastic, right? Then that energy becomes contagious. and you know it so well, that is a co-regulating element. Like if I can be happy, if I can have the capacity to be happy with someone else, that also co-regulates me, even if I'm having maybe a bit of a downer. Jonny Miller (17:41) huh. Right, yeah. Franziska Gonder (17:47) So this is also where nervous system health and somatics, this is where it all becomes one, not surprisingly. Jonny Miller (17:55) Yeah. Well, so we're kind of touching on the territory that I really want to get into today, which is, perhaps, maybe before we like, we do a deep dive, can we just like, I'm kind of like putting myself in the listener's shoes, like what is it about doing radical self inquiry on yourself that allows you to show up with greater relational capacity? Is it the fact that by exploring myself, Franziska Gonder (18:00) Great. Mm. Jonny Miller (18:24) I'm able to kind of witness and welcome the full spectrum of my own emotions and experiences so that when they arise in other people, I'm not reactive to that. Is that the key piece or is there anything else that's going on here as well? Franziska Gonder (18:37) I think that's a big piece. I think the other piece is also that, like, me drill down on that a little bit more. I think the... With radical self-inquiry, in my book, comes a certain interoceptive awareness, right? Like, sort of like, how do I, how do things make me feel? And if I can witness that in someone else, like with what you said, like, and not react to it, then I also have the ability to hold that person, give that person the space it needs. to potentially process what's happening without making it mine, without feeling like, man, like he's always so

heavy, right? Like things like that. Or he's always like, you know, so loud. Like it doesn't always need to be like a negative emotion. It can also be like, he always takes up so much space. Well, you know, if I understand. Jonny Miller (19:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (19:50) that this is probably also an invitation for me to be looking at what I'm being like, what is that trigger inside of me? Then I can hold this other person also more non-judgmentally and be like, hey, I really appreciate how you take up space in this room. I would love for you to use this in a different capacity moving forward because I'm still learning to take up more space and I can learn a lot from you. And so there's a little like certain comfort that comes with knowing yourself. Jonny Miller (19:56) Right. Franziska Gonder (20:19) in the way also how it fosters other relationships and creates meaning in those relationships. Jonny Miller (20:24) Mmm. Mmm. Yeah, beautifully said. maybe... Excuse me. I've got a... Chesty, chesty cough going on. One other thing that I think might be helpful to kind of like preface this conversation with is, like, again, like I'm imagining someone listening, let's say they... Maybe they lead a team, maybe they have kids... My puppy's at the door making noises. Yeah, so perhaps they... Franziska Gonder (20:40) Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (20:53) they lead a scene, perhaps they have kids, their lives are incredibly busy. Like what are the reasons or maybe some examples of how, you know, really taking the time and this stuff does take time and effort to kind of go into, what are some like practical examples that let's say increased somatic awareness and exploration can actually create kind of tangible results in their life and in your, or at least previously I've heard you talk about... Franziska Gonder (21:01) Mm. Jonny Miller (21:21) you know, working with founders to overcome repressed anger, to help with communication, kind of reclaiming self-respect, kind of working through attrition problems in a team. I think it'd be really helpful to kind of speak to the kind of direct thread between this radical, introspective, somatic self-awareness and like, kind of outcomes that people, you know, typically care about, whether it's their company or their family or how they feel about themselves. Franziska Gonder (21:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I want to preface it by saying that I find it's very contextual. So I'm going to do my best summarizing the many experiences that I've made with myself and others. The reason why I'm saying it's so contextual is because everybody has their own story. let me give you an example. if I find that in moments of conflict, my throat tightens. Jonny Miller (21:56) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (22:21) And I feel a desire to run out of the room. This is actually me like in the past And And I can just hold that for just three to five seconds without Immediately reacting to the tightening and the desire to like run out of the room And I can just hold that for a moment See what happens when I just stay with that sensation for a little bit What does that do How does that give me maybe a moment to actually recalibrate and Do something else and I think that's where change happens Like in those moments when we learn how to like become aware of the physical sensations that come with our biggest emotions or our biggest reactive patterns, our most conditioned tendencies. When I learn how to just also reflect on something that has happened in my day or in that week that I feel embarrassed about or jealous about or whatever it is and I reflect on that, Jonny Miller (23:19) Hmm. Franziska Gonder (23:44) and I maybe close my eyes and I go in it and I just stay with it for a moment and explore it with curiosity. We started the conversation with that. Explore it with curiosity and let it sort of like just feel how that feels in my body. And maybe it connects to a story. Maybe a memory comes up. Maybe a color comes up. Maybe a pattern comes up. Maybe it's like red flashing, you know. Seems like there's something hysterical going. Jonny Miller (23:50) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (24:12) Seems like my body is like in emergency mode, right? How do I relate to that? Can I sit with that? Can I hold myself in that? Can I say like, what has it come from? How old is that? Right? That's like beginner question. Like, how old is that emotion? How is that feeling? Then I'm starting to better understand where those patterns come from. And they're oftentimes... More often than not, the oftentimes inner child triggers. It's just, you know, I at the beginning of when I started this work, was like, I can't all be related to the inner child. Right. It's like that's, you know, we also like we humans, we move so cliche, right. But. Yeah, it actually is. So. Jonny Miller (24:47) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So cliché. Franziska Gonder (25:13) And then it's obviously also like, you know, people with like work trauma or burnout or something like that, right? It's more recent. But even the people that have, for instance, if you had like a really toxic boss or something like that, and even those relationship between the toxic boss and it, there's oftentimes like an emotional pattern that connects through the rest of your life. There's oftentimes always something that sort of like triggers and then that person represents that wound. Jonny Miller (25:18) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (25:43) that emotional wound in your system. And Jonny Miller (25:44) Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Franziska Gonder (25:46) the body stores it. And it's a really beautiful, natural superpower. The fact that your body does that just means that your body is trying to protect you from experiencing something again. And when I learned that, I felt so relieved. I was like, my body is totally showing up for me. This is great. And I just had to sort of like offer my

body a new... Jonny Miller (26:06) Mm. Mm. Franziska Gonder (26:11) a new sensation, a new way of being. And that was a practice. And because I love working out, I was like, I know how to practice things. So for me, it's really straightforward. I hope this helps. Jonny Miller (26:27) Yeah, this, no, this is, this is great. This is great. And then one more, one more like curious thread in my mind is like, if you were to paint the picture of a leader who let's say has, has developed and has trained a lot of this capacity, let's say, I don't know, someone who's worked with you for two, three, four years. what does that, what does that look like? Like, what does that look like on kind of, on the level of their day-to-day interactions of their, of their work of how they show up? Franziska Gonder (26:34) Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (26:56) So again, I think it'd be really helpful to just like build a picture of what this looks like in practice like after a period of time Franziska Gonder (27:02) Amazing. I've struggled with that question or the answer to it for a while because I also come from a very performative background. And so I thought the transformations that I offer, need to be radical. They need to, right? Jonny Miller (27:27) Yeah. Franziska Gonder (27:30) It needs to like, you you're you're completely different person. You're super Zen and you're making double the money, right back Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and and you're sleeping solid through the night nine hours But I think the biggest and it's funny I just had that conversation with a client who's been with me for a year and a half and just transitioned out and so we just had our sort of like Jonny Miller (27:37) and your HIV is three times what it was. Franziska Gonder (28:00) goodbye conversation and shared a lot of blessings with each other. And he said to me like how much it helped him to disbelieve in his own unfolding, like in his own becoming. Like he feels like he is less stressed about who he is at all times, but he's a lot more aware of who he already is. Jonny Miller (28:16) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (28:30) There's a lot of doors that have started to close because he started to integrate some of the ruptures, the healthy, normal human ruptures that happened in his lifetime that really got in the way of the deeply meaningful, important work that he was doing. as a result of that, at the beginning when I met him, he's like, I gotta quit this job. I gotta get out of here as soon as possible. Like, you know, all of those like really radical steps. By the end, he's like, I have no desire to leave. I think I'm right now where I am is exactly where I need to be. I've completely changed sort of like my perception and my perspective on like what my impact is. And I have. greater, I talk a lot about peripheral vision in my work, I have a greater peripheral vision sort of like and long-term view for how long things take. I think one of the most prominent survival states that we are in chronically as a society is that we have completely lost touch with how fast things need to be in order to be meaningful. And so we're not showing up for the work anymore as part of our fulfillment or engagement in life. It always has to be for something, right? In like preferably six months rotations. Like, you know, we have to see an impact immediately. And I think when we learn to step away from that, we're committing to legacy. We're committing to like, we're committing to commitment. We're committing to like be in conversation with ourselves and be like, is this still agreeing with me? and we are better at making decisions. We're better at sort of like stopping negotiations where we don't want them. Right? It's like we're more human in the pursuit of excellence, if that makes sense. And it makes life so much more enjoyable and fun because we're not constantly running towards the next thing. We're more like... Jonny Miller (30:35) Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Franziska Gonder (30:49) walking and we also have the time to look at the birds and the trees while we're walking. So I think that is a profound one. And then there's immediate effects such as like holding conflict better with the team, having greater capacity for harder times, but or for really good times. Joy and anxiety is a big piece, especially when I work with founders who are... Jonny Miller (30:55) Mm. Franziska Gonder (31:18) always operating and then they hit a milestone and they're like, yeah, let's keep going. You know, but like their team could really use that moment of like, did we did we do well or like, was this good now? You know, like a little bit of like validation, just a little bit of validation of this sort of like, hey, like, we did well here, didn't we? Like together we did it, you know. Jonny Miller (31:23) Mm-hmm. Do we do good? Yeah, Yeah. Franziska Gonder (31:44) and to be able to hold that for other people, to be able to hold joy for them. mean, let's take a breather for a couple of days. You know, here's a, I don't know, here's a little something, go out and eat and then let's have a, if it's a remote team, let's go and have a, you know, meeting and celebrate and what did we learn? And I don't know, those kinds of things. But they're all more like outcomes out of the deep inner work that we're doing. Like I often find that Jonny Miller (32:10) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (32:12) the general level of creativity that someone brings to their life is much greater because they feel like they have choice in their system. It's not like all tunnel vision, go, go, go. Jonny Miller (32:24) Yeah, and I love the, it's more than metaphor, but the image of the peripheral vision as well. And I'm seeing the brain that's like directly behind you right now. And I'm thinking of like the left and right hemisphere and how there is a difference and how when we have access to the spaciousness in our peripheral vision, like, there's a, there's a completely different

perspective and presumably more strategy and presumably a different mode of thinking. Franziska Gonder (32:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. holy. Jonny Miller (32:51) that isn't possible when you're in that kind of very like straw, narrow kind of focus, which is useful for, you know, short periods of time. But if you don't come out into the defocused kind of expansive, like greater context, then people can just end up like on the treadmill without any thought of like where are we actually going? And like, what's the bigger picture here? Franziska Gonder (32:59) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I call it performance zone and learning zone. Right. It's like performance zone is the sort of like it's the sprint that we sometimes need. Right. But if we're constantly chronically in the performance zone, then we're using cortisol and adrenaline on a daily basis to sort of like keep us going. That is the narrow peripheral vision. That is the tunnel that we're in. And then 10 years later, we wake up and we're like. Jonny Miller (33:18) Hmm. Franziska Gonder (33:44) What am I? What have I done? And the body starts to sort of like yell at us, right? Through all the like inflammation in our system, like insomnia, hair loss, like all of the symptoms that the body then sends. And then we perceive that as a disturbance too. We're like, let's just throw a pill in it. Make sure that that goes away so we can keep going instead of being like, OK, so let me. Jonny Miller (33:47) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (34:14) like defocus, let me like stand still and go deep and be like, wow, like what is my body actually saying? What do I need? Where am I coming from? What have I done? Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going? I think those are all, yeah, I sometimes wish like people would do that earlier than the body's already screaming at them. Right, but. Jonny Miller (34:26) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Franziska Gonder (34:44) I guess this is why we're doing the work that we're doing to help that. Jonny Miller (34:48) Yeah, I mean, and there's also, like, I like the analogy to say... sports athletes or Olympic athletes where they have the kind of training zone and they have performance zone and their performance zone it's you know like a very very very maybe like two percent of their overall time is in actual performance and the rest of time it's training and recovery and they really get they become like professional world-class recoverers if that's a word it's like they get really really good at that kind of downshift into parasympathetic there was a a famous Franziska Gonder (35:06) Super small. Super small. Yeah. Yeah. Jonny Miller (35:24) clip from the recent Olympics of the guy that did the horse that like crushed all the all the medals and just before he walked on he was like in his chest slumps like basically snoring like half asleep and it was like I think it was such a great example of like this is what like world-class performance looks like having that ability to kind of not only turn it on but also to like turn it down after the performance is required which I think is the Franziska Gonder (35:29) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Jonny Miller (35:52) Like no one teaches that, no one trains that, no one even thinks about it. Franziska Gonder (35:56) I do this, I say this a lot to my clients, but I do it myself too. Like even if I have a big workshop or you know even before our podcast here like I lay down on the floor, I took a few deep breaths. instead of like I didn't have any, I didn't write any notes. I just reminded myself of who am I, like felt myself. So you know everything I know is already inside. And I think if we would come back to that more often, more like the integration with self rather than always trying to like be more and do more, I think we would notice that the obsession with the beginner's mindset actually costs us a lot of capacity in our life. Like constantly thinking like we're never ready, but actually integrating like at every single step where I'm at, I'm always ready. just ready for where I'm at right now. I might learn something new from Johnny today and then I'll bring that into my next session with the client. Great, yeah, learn something again. But this is not a performance zone right now. This is like everything that Johnny and Francie already know. And we're just sharing that. And I think it's really important to sort of like know that in your body too, because that is ultimately how it comes across too. Jonny Miller (37:16) Hmm. Yeah, interesting. Where my mind went was like, maybe there is like a way in which it is performance, but performance in a non-graspy, non-performative performance. Like, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's what flow is in some ways when you kind of really drop into it. So, I mean, I think that was, that's a really beautiful example. And again, kind of, I'm like coming back to like, Franziska Gonder (37:30) Performative way. You Hmm, let's see. Jonny Miller (37:51) listeners here and they're like, like Franzi just tell me what to do like like what are the what are the like nine hacks that I can do to kind of practice my somatic thing and get and get this right like obviously that's that's that's a joke but like what are some what are some kind of like practical pieces that someone might be able to explore for themselves that would maybe ignite that curiosity which will then likely lead them further down the path. Franziska Gonder (37:59) awareness. Mm-hmm. Boom. Jonny Miller (38:22) or perhaps questions to explore. Franziska Gonder (38:23) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of the beautiful basic somatic practice or exercise is to connect. So what we think is that when we have an idea or we have a reaction to something, that it's the brain saying something and then we feel something. It's actually the other way around. So it's like we feel something first and then the brain is like, that's what it is, okay. And then it,

you know, it spits something out for us. That's how memory works. So the body stores the memory, the memory gets activated and then we say something or we run, freeze, whatever it is. And so a beautiful exercise is to check in with yourself, like set an alarm on any given... moment of the day, preferably after 12 because then you've already experienced certain things throughout the day. And check in and be like, what's my, what do I feel right now? How's my body doing? What's the charge in my system, for instance? I feel certain tension around my neck. I feel kind of nervous in my stomach. My hips are really tight. Something like that. And then ask yourself, what's my next thought? For instance, my hips are really tight. And then my old me would have said, my hips are really tight. you've been performing again. Right? So that was a really old conditioning that I had. Took me a long time, by the way, to like get rid of that. was really, I think it's been in my system for a long time. And so as a result of that, you can do very specific exercises to, for instance, open your hips. Right? I would oftentimes like stretch in that moment. Jonny Miller (39:59) You Franziska Gonder (40:21) or I would massage, book a massage, right? It could be as simple as that. So I wouldn't try to like make it overly complicated at the beginning because it can go as far as I'm sitting in my room, like I'm sitting in my room, I'm about to have a meeting with my boss and I will tell him that I'm going to leave the company. And because you felt this like, you know, kind of like my chest is tight, I'm like super agitated. And then the next doll was like, I'm about to meet my boss and I'm going to tell him what's going to happen. So I can then start to actually regulate myself. Okay, let me take a few deep breaths. And then from that, maybe taking a few deep breaths for like two, three minutes, you can say, okay, what's the worst thing that can happen? My boss not gonna like it. Okay. That's not on me, for instance. Again, very simplified. Sometimes it's more complex than that. But what we're trying to do is move out of the most reactive emotional patterns. We all have those reactive patterns where a certain somatic sensation triggers a certain thought and we want to learn how to disrupt them a little bit. But for that, I first have to know how my body operates on those. And that's a really beautiful one to follow. I would do that for like two, three weeks. Like preferably daily or every two days. And really like journal on that one. What we oftentimes see is that there's a lot of like patterns in there. It's remarkable. We might not see it when we started, but then afterwards they're like, shit, it's all the same. Jonny Miller (42:08) Mm-hmm. It's kind of scary once you start to unpack. Yeah, that's really helpful. And then, yeah, it's funny. I find myself really playing devil's advocate here and coming up with all the counter examples. I will sometimes meet people and sometimes this might even be me where their response is, yeah, actually, when I tune in to my body, I feel really tight and anxious and... Franziska Gonder (42:25) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (42:47) that sucks and I'd rather just like I'd much rather disassociate and I'd much rather like not feel that. So I guess that would be a it would be both a thought of I don't like this and the sense would be I want I don't want to feel this I want to like check out in some way. So what would you say is maybe unhelpful about that? Franziska Gonder (42:53) But is that a thought? Jonny Miller (43:13) Because you know they might be like, you know, I'm fine like actually not feeling the shittiness that's in my body a lot of the time. Like why should I feel that? Franziska Gonder (43:21) but you do feel the tension in the body. You said that right? Jonny Miller (43:26) Yeah, but let's say there is tension in the body. Franziska Gonder (43:28) Yeah, but you're saying they don't feel it? Jonny Miller (43:31) saying that they do feel it but they don't want to. They'd much rather like check out and like... Franziska Gonder (43:33) okay. Well, that assumes that the person is ready for the honesty of the body, right? That exercise that I just proposed. Like, if you don't, if you're not ready for it, please don't do it. Jonny Miller (43:41) Mm-hmm. . Great, great. So this is probably a really important thread. Like who is ready for this type of exploration? And who isn't? Like how do you think about that line? Franziska Gonder (44:04) feel like if you've come to a place in your life where you've explored all sorts of modalities or many modalities of healing potentially and many modalities of productivity and getting success and have paid all of the agencies to make you a superstar or the company has risen to exorbitant success and yet nothing seems enough. I would say you're ready. Like I also I meet a lot of people who who have a lot of success like like financially especially and feel numb. Like and they come to me and say like I actually don't feel anything and that feels scary. And so the numbness actually Jonny Miller (44:37) You Franziska Gonder (45:05) is a beautiful starting point for a somatic inquiry because it's also a feeling. Numbness is also a feeling. If I don't feel anything, then what are you protecting yourself from? What do you don't have the capacity to see or to feel or to witness? Things like that. And that can take some time until we can thaw that. Sometimes there are somatic practices literally around thawing, like thawing the body. Like if you don't hold on to the numbness as a protection mechanism, for instance, and we would just like feel into what it would mean to like thaw your shoulders and thaw your chest and thaw your hips and you know like it literally becomes like water. What's peeking through? What are you starting to sense? Jonny Miller (45:42) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (46:00) just physically. don't

want to hear any rationalized thought around that. I just want to feel what that does to the body. And from that place, we can slowly but surely start to roll into the implications of that on a relational basis or organizational basis or whatever it is. So I oftentimes find that people come thinking they have a certain problem. but they're really just out of touch with a part of themselves or haven't integrated a part of themselves. Feel like they're lost in translation in their own life that seems so great on the outside but feels so empty on the inside. Jonny Miller (46:47) That's beautiful. Yeah, I often think that, I think for many people a barrier is to kind of like not... Franziska Gonder (46:48) yeah. Jonny Miller (46:59) believe all of the stories and thoughts that are kind of popping up all the time. I sometimes think about it's almost like you have like a PR team kind of in your head that's like reporting after the fact and they're like writing press releases and sending them out and we're just like reading these press releases over and over again like shit like is this what's happening? Yeah this is beautiful. I have another another curiosity. Franziska Gonder (47:07) Hmm. my god, I'm totally gonna use that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (47:28) I don't have a good answer here, but how do you distinguish if you do between therapy versus coaching? And it seems like, you know, the work you do is very much kind of blending and like weaving the two together in a beautiful way. Yeah. Do you make a distinction? Do you think that's helpful? yeah. Okay. Franziska Gonder (47:43) Very much, yeah. Yes, absolutely, totally. So the distinction, or like the integration of the two worlds, quote unquote, only happens because I believe there is no separation between the two, right? Like the way executive leadership or like leadership development works and the way our bodies work and our nervous system works, there is no... there's no separation between the two. It's one system. We are one system. And so separating the two is actually just creating a huge disservice. It's like, you know, of course I can tell you all the productivity hacks or like all the things that you should be doing with your team, but if I don't give you the tools to start doing that intuitively and finding that wisdom or clarity inside of yourself, then I'm not doing my job because then you kind of stuck with me. Jonny Miller (48:15) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (48:42) And I don't want that. I don't want you to be like working with me 10 years in like 10 years. I want you to like start doing that on your own and then we're just fine tuning on the around the edges. So I think that's just important to like preface. Yeah. Jonny Miller (48:48) Mm-hmm. Yeah, so just to clarify that you're saying that you'd rather give people the tools to then kind of do the work for themselves with your guidance initially, almost like training wheels, and then at some point you like

push them and the bike keeps going without the training wheels. Okay. Franziska Gonder (49:09) Yes. yeah, I mean, yeah. mean, and it, you know, as life moves on and things change, like they might come back. I have several clients that like, they're like, Hey, you know, this happened. Can we, can we do another three months or another four months? Yeah, of course. Right. Like, but the point is like that they are in so much awareness that they're like, okay, like, you know, I recognize this, this is really hard. I could use. Jonny Miller (49:28) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (49:37) the guidance of someone asking me specific questions or giving me specific tools or helping me to feel something that I can't feel on my own. But ultimately, want to enable people to be their own force of healing and for others too and to have that positive influence on others as well. The difference between coaching and therapy for me is like therapy on its own is very much like backward look like past oriented, right? I'm trying to like sort of like clean up the past. I'm trying to sort of like integrate what has happened. When I went to therapy, the thing that I missed the most was and now what? Like, and what are we doing now? Jonny Miller (50:16) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (50:33) And so I think this is where my coaching is very different because I'm very much future-oriented, very much presence and future-oriented. The preface or the premise of somatics in general is that we lead with more skillful action, that we understand what our best contribution is, that we can skillfully apply ourselves to the environments that we're entering. while recognizing ourselves and recognizing others and their own limitations and contributions. I think there's a... Yeah, that in and of itself is a massive difference. Jonny Miller (51:18) Yeah, it's beautiful. Are there any myths that you see in this space that kind of come to mind that like maybe irk you or annoy you or that you wish weren't here? Franziska Gonder (51:38) know if it's a myth or an annoyance or more of like a in business terms I would say like a custom education problem but it's definitely also something that I continue to work on is like Jonny Miller (51:47) You Franziska Gonder (51:57) I think with somatic leadership in particular, people sometimes still put it into the spirituality bucket. like, it's a little bit more of like the... It's higher up there, it's like, woo. Even though it's like the most basic practice to get in touch with yourself and with others as a result. The spiritual element comes... Jonny Miller (52:03) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (52:26) as an outcome, almost like that we all have access to something much greater within ourselves. So it's almost like the experience of ourselves and how we experience others. That is so beautiful that we would title that as spiritual. Right, because it feels like, I don't know, for me it feels just delightful to live in the state that I get to live

in, that I have the tools to kind of like see people the way they are without putting my own lens on it all the time and you know my own wounds whatever it is but to like really perceive people really see people really witness people really see nature really witness nature like really source energy from that right all of those things really ground myself by sitting in my backyard like that it's it's mind it's for me it's like baffling me that we're still at a place where that is considered spiritual. Even though it's just coming back to who we all are and like having access to like we have access to all of those things on a daily basis. So I don't know, I don't think it's an annoyance. think if I... Jonny Miller (53:32) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Franziska Gonder (53:52) If I would sit long enough with it, maybe we become an annoyance, I really think it's like those who are in the field, I think we all need to do a better job at kind of saying like, hey, this is choice-based living, possibility-based living. We all have it inside of us. It's just you taking advantage of your nervous system and everything that we know about neuroscience, basically. Jonny Miller (54:10) Mmm. Hmm. Franziska Gonder (54:21) Right, and it helps my most analytical clients to enter that space with less judgment actually when I start by saying like, here's a neuroscience facts band. And they're like, okay, this is helpful. Jonny Miller (54:28) Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. think a lot of people do have that. They either want to see the studies or like to what degree is this quantifiable for it to be legitimized. And I think there's definitely a kind of healthy skepticism in that. And there's also, I think that can become like a defense mechanism against trying something or experimenting for yourself that is outside of your current kind of... Franziska Gonder (54:45) Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (55:04) perceptive, yeah, your current lens on the world, let's say. I think it can go both ways. Franziska Gonder (55:09) Yeah, it's almost like if I can't think it, if I can't think it, then it's not real. Right? And I think the neuroscience behind somatics, the body-based practices kind of like shows that it's actually the opposite. And I think it's a fact that I've shared probably in other podcasts too, but like the fact that the gut sends nine pieces of information for every single information that the brain sends to the gut. Jonny Miller (55:14) rights. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (55:37) That on its own should debunk that entirely. There's a whole brain that sits not just in our gut, but the rest of our bodies too. Because the memories are being stored in our bodies and not in our brain. And so by staying rational, analytical, or whatever it is, we're actually leaving out a massive part of wisdom in that sense and things that we can access and understand. Jonny Miller (56:02) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (56:07) all make sense of. Jonny Miller (56:08) Yeah, yeah, beautiful. So earlier on in the conversation, you mentioned you think of leadership as also like at home and parenting to some degree. We'd love to hear like a little bit about how... Franziska Gonder (56:19) Mm. Mmm. Jonny Miller (56:23) we've talked about this a lot before but just kind of Franziska Gonder (56:25) Yeah. Jonny Miller (56:25) again whatever comes to mind like how does some of these let's say kind of ecology of practices but also like lens through which you just view life how does this apply to the arena of showing up as a parent? Franziska Gonder (56:42) For me, parenting is the ultimate leadership in life. It's... It's so humbling and it brings you to your knees and it brings you into the ecstasy of life all at the same time. And so applying a sense of like ownership, applying a sense of radical self-inquiry, applying a sense of like legacy to my commitment to parenting. has really helped me to get out of my own way as a parent. Like to not let my emotions take over or my sleep deprivation or other very human things. It has also shaped me in the way I think about childhood. just understanding how the nervous system works and how our bodies work. have... understood so much about how kids learn better, about how our current education system is not where I want to have my children sit in on. It has helped me to make very radical decisions around what I perceive as necessary when it comes to childhood, like, you know, competitive sports or things like that. I have a very different relationship to that now. We give our our kids now do like a hybrid learning model where they we homeschool and we also send them to like a learning community But if they wake up and I can sense that their nervous systems overloaded because they had the I don't know a very social weekend and You know, I have one child who's like extremely sensitive when it comes to like over stimulation and stuff like that. I'm like stay at home Right? Rest your body. When I tell my mother and my stepfather that I do that, they think like, he's never gonna learn how to be disciplined. Okay, well, at least he's gonna learn how to like take care of his energy and you know, take care. Like he's not gonna be a good kid in school. And we know that, like he's supercharged in those moments. He like reacts to other kids. They, you know, they get into like big arguments, stuff like that. I think this is... what kids experience in school on a daily basis. So I have a very nervous system based way of looking at parenting. yeah, as a result of that, we moved from Chicago to Germany to Portugal, sort of like trying to find the community that best aligns with who we are, believing that Jonny Miller (59:19) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (59:45) if our kids perceive the same values, just the certain set of values, not just in our home, but in the wider community, then they won't question so much around like, you know, why am I not allowed to have a phone? Why

am I not allowed to be on social media? Why am I not, you know, allowed to like do certain things that are quote unquote standard in today's childhood? So Yeah, I feel. I feel like I can, I'm more tuned into the different needs my kids have based on what I see, what their like sort of like resilience is or what their somatic posture is. So I feel I can, I can talk to them based on what I see from them. that they have a hard time articulating. It also means that I talk to them about feelings a lot. I talk to them about like, you know, where they store things. I do a lot of practices with them of just like letting go. Like things like that. I totally apply it to everything I do. you Jonny Miller (1:01:30) Beautiful. Yeah, I think we're back. One second. Franziska Gonder (1:01:54) Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (1:02:00) you Sorry about this, think it's probably the internet on our side. think Kelly is on a call downstairs. Franziska Gonder (1:02:16) Mm. You Jonny Miller (1:02:22) But maybe it's just going to be fine. Great. Yeah, I think it's back. Thank you for sharing all of that around parenthood. As you know, Kelly and I are thinking of starting a family this year. And yeah, we definitely look up to you guys as role models in a way of like how I think parenting can be different. And I imagine there's challenges involved in trying to do things differently and parenting in a way that does. Franziska Gonder (1:02:44) Mm-hmm. Jonny Miller (1:03:02) one of the nervous system and, probably also goes counter to what, let's say your parents or kind of mainstream education preaches. so I can see that'd be challenging. And one, I don't know, one like question I have as well, and this is going to take us in a whole different direction, but like, I I'm curious with the way that AI is going, like how, what even is the role for education now that, you know, Franziska Gonder (1:03:08) Yeah. Very. Jonny Miller (1:03:29) I imagine your kids, any kids can just kind of open up ChatGPT and just type in a question and get a better answer than most adults or textbooks could come up with. So I'm wondering like how you view, if at all, like how is AI kind of shaping your perspective on this? Franziska Gonder (1:03:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Totally. my elder, actually my eldest and my middle son, they're both learning math with an AI tutor. That's like one change that we made recently. And they've been, it's been incredible, to be honest. Jonny Miller (1:04:02) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (1:04:10) What I think will never be replaced, and I see this in my work and I see this with children and pretty much anywhere, I think what will never be, can be replaced is that sense of belonging, the sense of safety and sense of dignity that you have with others or within ourselves, yourself. And so I think we, in the education system, we need to... put a much greater emphasis on children's relational intelligence. Especially since kids are being exposed to social media and all sorts of technologies much earlier on. I am perceiving so much social awkwardness these days with kids. Or kids having... being put on a screen while they're at a restaurant with their parents. And I always think like, how are they gonna learn how to like order a meal or like be in a conversation with others or like waiting their turn to like say something because it's in a restaurant, you gotta be a bit more quiet because you can't just yell at your brother. It's like, it's such so many basic ways of just interact. It's like my dad would say like, it's the ABC of being together. And so I think we need to put a much greater emphasis on that. And the way I see that also work out in my daily work is... I think AI will automate a lot of the things that were primed to be automated, but it will also pull people into a greater desire to be connected to other humans. think micro communities will be on the rise. think similar to education, I think we're going to see more micro parts of education where smaller parts of kids come together. Same for personal development, professional development. We're going to see more communities being formed, we're gonna see people craving more authentic connection, more trust, more like, yes, I can see what Chad GPT said, but like, what do you think? Like, just like some, like true authentic human connection. I think... Jonny Miller (1:06:24) Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (1:06:33) companies will be, you know, we can, we'll basically be able to build companies based on AI automation in many ways. And so the way we hire and fire will change dramatically to sort of like, are we, who do we really want to be part of? Well, like, how do we really want to hire? Who do we want in our organization? All of those things will drastically change. think we're in for a really wild ride. Jonny Miller (1:07:08) That seems likely. Franziska Gonder (1:07:09) For sure, for sure, yeah. Yeah, but I think the belonging safety dignity element will be increasingly more important. I mean, as you know, this is what the nervous system maximizes for optimizes for on a daily basis, those three things. And if we receive that even less than now, then, you know, the rise of. Jonny Miller (1:07:22) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Franziska Gonder (1:07:40) communities like yours and mine will just increase in importance and the many other incredible practitioners that you and I are surrounded by. So I think it's an air of automation and it's also an air of belonging at the same time, weirdly enough. So the currency is trust. Jonny Miller (1:07:58) Yeah, yeah, I I'm sure we're both biased, but I'm inclined to agree. Franziska Gonder (1:08:04) It's okay. It's okay. We can be in our own bubble sometimes. Jonny Miller (1:08:10) So I really love the three values or like North Star of belonging, safety and dignity. As we begin to kind of bring this conversation to a close, what invitations might you give to listeners to explore moving in those

directions with themselves and with the people around them? What might be an experiment or a question or something they can play with? Franziska Gonder (1:08:20) Mm-hmm. So I think first of all defining that for themselves. What does belonging, safety and dignity mean for you? How does it move you? And then be honest with yourself about how much of that is currently existing in your life. And then building the emotional capacity and the nervous system resilience to also weather certain decisions that come from that. I that one. There three questions that I give to the women's groups that I lead at the beginning. In our very first session, we all sort of like go around and we all answer, who am I, why am I here, where am I going? And funny enough, those simple questions. have you in for quite a ride if you take it seriously and dig deeper. And I think what we will always find is those three elements will always be found in all of the answers that we're giving. And so rather than thinking like, do I optimize for belonging safety and dignity? It's almost like, how am I already optimizing for belonging safety and dignity in my life right now? And how can I invest into that, into what I'm finding a little bit more or a little bit more intentionally? So I think, yeah, that's a, if we just stay on with belonging safety and dignity, I would start there. Jonny Miller (1:10:19) Beautiful. Yeah, really beautiful. What would you say is your deepest motivator for this work and the work you're doing in the world today? What really drives you? Franziska Gonder (1:10:38) It's funny that you say that. I wrote that down this morning. I don't know how you ended up asking this exact question. I was in the peloton this morning and I was like... I always ask myself that regularly. It's sort of like, why do I do what I do? Because I feel like it changes. No shit. And so it's actually laying next to me because I just journaled before we got on. Jonny Miller (1:10:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I should. Franziska Gonder (1:11:07) And I wrote, because I've seen and experienced the opposite of performance without consideration of others too many times. I suffered from... Totally. Because I've seen and experienced the opposite of being in leadership that heals. So, performance. For the sake of performance and success only. Jonny Miller (1:11:17) Can you say that first bit one more time? Franziska Gonder (1:11:35) without consideration of others too many times. I suffered from it in my childhood. I became the person in my 20s. I witnessed it in the clients I served in my first company and I see the big size of relief within myself and others that we have a choice to do differently. When you're good to yourself, you build the capacity to be good, give good and see good in others. and I really... You know, sometimes you can only say things when you're on the other side of things and you're just like, I wish I could tell you how good it feels. It makes me actually really emotional to like talk about that, because I came from such a dark place. In my 20s, it was such a dark hole. And. I've suffered for so long, I think I've suffered for so long in my childhood, too, without even knowing it. And. And having gone through this work and the way I can embrace myself and be with myself and embrace others and I don't know be Do work that like impacts so many people positively as a result. Don't know. It's just pure delight. I don't have a I don't I don't ever feel like I want to stop working like I don't ever perceive that I'm like you know, that I'm grinding or anything like that. I'm just sort of like, this is an extension of me. And so I just hope that if we all have more ability to be honest with ourselves and look at the wounds and look at the magical gifts that we all carry inside of us, that more people get to a place where they're just in the light of themselves. And as a result, give that to others. Like be in service. Like my entire life is really like I just want to be in service of others finding their own delight. Jonny Miller (1:13:36) Hmm. It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And there's something about like pursuing delight that feels very honest to me. It feels like it's somewhat stripped away of some of like the abstracts kind of... I don't know. This is something that like, yeah, like more delight. Like, yeah, we all want that. Like, of course. There's something very... Franziska Gonder (1:14:09) Yeah. Jonny Miller (1:14:15) Yeah, grounded and honest about that and fun too. It doesn't take it doesn't sound like it's taking itself too seriously, which I think is definitely a risk. Franziska Gonder (1:14:17) Yeah. Yeah. That's That's true. Jonny Miller (1:14:26) Well, Franzi, this has been such a pleasure. I'm sorry it took us two and a half, three years to have this conversation. I'm glad that we finally did. It's been so great. Franziska Gonder (1:14:37) We're in each other's life for a long time, right? Jonny Miller (1:14:40) I think you're stuck with me, unfortunately. Until, you know, I'm sure we'll do a part two and part three. Where can listeners who may have had their curiosity sparked by something that you've shared in this conversation, what would be a good way for them to learn more about you, about your work, about everything that you're up to in the world? What would you direct people to? Franziska Gonder (1:14:43) Yeah, likewise. you Yeah. and I want to grow my Substack this year. I write passionately. I've never prioritized growing my Substack. I just wrote for the sake of writing because I love writing. you can find me on my Substack leadership that heals. then francescogonder.com is my website where you can find pretty much everything I do. One thing that's not on there yet. Jonny Miller (1:15:12) Hmm, yeah. Franziska Gonder (1:15:40) is this new series that I launched called The Leadership that Heals Collective, which is a workshop series. Like every month,

at end of the month, there's a somatic theme that we explore around somatic leadership and people can join by choosing the investment that they want to give into it. And it's an experiment that I'm running this year to democratize access. somatic tools for people because obviously like the one-on-one coaching that's obviously something that people can always explore with me but best is always to schedule a call I like that the most and but I want to make sure that I get better at democratizing the access to it too I don't want this to be like a only a high-end kind of like ticket thing but like people getting access to the tools when they need them so Jonny Miller (1:16:37) Hmm. Franziska Gonder (1:16:37) I'm passionate about that this year. Jonny Miller (1:16:41) Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for the work that you do in the world. yeah, it's fun being sparring partners in this domain. Well, I like to, as you may know, close with a line from Rilke. He said, try to love the questions themselves and live them now. Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it, live your way into the answer. And with that in mind... Franziska Gonder (1:16:46) Likewise, I appreciate you do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Jonny Miller (1:17:09) probably very appropriate for this conversation but what is the question that is most alive in your consciousness right now and what question would you leave our listeners with? Franziska Gonder (1:17:26) I think it's two questions. One is... I did a circle with my kids in the summer when we were unplugged in the wilderness. And we had a little fire and we all wrote down sort of like something that we're hoping to receive and to nurture in the next year. I always want to understand better of how I can serve my children. So it's really a life for me, always. This is just a very committed question. So how do I serve my children in the best way possible? And how do I see them for each of them for who they are? Like those three beautiful boys that we have, like how do I make sure that I see them for who they are and not fall into the trap of just mixing them all together and just sort of like copy paste, you know? And then it happens quickly and like, you know, most parents that listen to this, I'm like, you know? So, and then another question that's really alive for me right now is... freedom of time. What is my definition of freedom of time? I want to grow my practice this year for the first time. I'm actually going out and like really growing it and really trying to create a bigger stage for myself and yet I'm also not willing to give up the time that I need in order to be the best version of myself for this work. And so how do I make sure that I create the nervous system capacity to build this without jeopardizing that genius that lives inside of me that I know needs time to actually produce and be that person of service? So those are things that are alive for me right now. Jonny Miller (1:19:46) Beautiful and what would be one question that you might leave listeners with to marinate on? Franziska Gonder (1:19:54) Who am I? Jonny Miller (1:19:58) Beautiful. Well, we will wrap with that. Thank you so much. Franziska Gonder (1:20:02) Thank you. Jonny Miller (1:20:07) You you