บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ 3. Jack Davey & Leila Manion: Independence, Access for All and Wheelchair Basketball

00:04:29.680 Is yours carbon fiber? 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:30.720 Yes, it is, yeah. 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:36.319 So I was just looking at the passing on Jack's chair, and it looks that's a that's a high spec. 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:41.759 They cost as much as bike, like really high spec mountain bikes, wheelchairs cost the same, if not more. 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:42.079 Really? 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:43.600 So is that particularly like that wheelchair? 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:45.120 Yeah, so it's two kilograms. 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:46.639 Uh two kilograms, that's it. 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:48.000 Yeah. 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:52.879 And so what's the price difference between a 10 kilogram one and a two-kilogram one then? 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:58.639 Um so this one you'll be looking at the best part of sort of 11,000 um for this kind of chair. 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:04.639 But it the best way I kind of describe it is it's an investment in your quality of life in that respect. 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:06.879 So, you know, these will last you a long time. 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:13.839 If you look after it, it can last a lifetime as well, um, rather than need it to get new equipment or anything like that. 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:27.920 Um, so the best way I kind of describe what a bespoke wheelchair does is if you wear a size 11 shoe when you're size two, you know, because you're you're more prone to injuries, you're no more prone to not being comfortable. 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.439 There's all these other things that sort of uh make a difference in that respect. 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:32.000 Yeah. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.279 It's really important. 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:38.959 The more like even for me, like mine's an NH NHS chair. 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:41.040 I can't can articulate that today. 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.040 Um, and it's relatively like I've got the best version of that chair. 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:52.800 But like I know that like if my tyres are a bit low and they needed they need pumping up now, like the light is it's such a difference in pushing. 00:05:52.800 --> 00:06:01.519 So it you know that that is demanding much less energy of you just by keeping you've got to keep them like well, haven't you? 00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:05.680 And if you keep them well, it they are such a tool to be out and about. 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.240 And have you got any uh any power assist on that chair? 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:08.639 Were you pushing? 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:18.639 No, well I I at home I've got a f a free wheel and it's that's something that clips onto the front of the chair and it almost turns it into a trike. 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:27.920 So it means that the small caster wheels are up off the ground and it's got a one big wheel at the front, so it turns, yeah, it turns it more into a sort of trike, doesn't it? 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:33.279 Almost like an adaptive cycle, sort of the small caster wheels at the front, they're a

bit like a trolley. 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:37.839 You know, trolleys are really hard to manoeuvre, you wouldn't want to like jump a trolley up a curve. 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:41.920 Well, these little wheels can be like well, they're a bit like trolley wheels. 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:46.800 So the more you can do to sort of aid your getting about, the easier. 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:54.319 I did have a power thing, but it I it sort of you had to control it with the wrist and it got a bit, it was hard to stop. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.079 So I I actually don't like it. 00:06:56.079 --> 00:06:58.240 So so lots of wheelchair users. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:02.560 Well, this is why we I think we encourage sort of fitness because you need to be quite strong. 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:18.240 I mean I'm embarrassed to say that I've experienced, I remember when I was maybe 12 or 13 and being dunked by friends or my brothers into shopping trolleys and pushed down sort of high streets, being completely unable to control myself and that being quite scary, especially when you come across cobbles because that's gone. 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:21.040 Yeah, my God. 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:22.560 Cobbles and grass. 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:27.839 So things like um a front wheel that you were talking about earlier is is ideal to go off-roading on. 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:40.560 Um, so if you do want to go sort of out and about in the forest or anything like that, having a uh sort of manual assist that clips on the front of your chair to lift your castes up so it doesn't dig into the ground or anything like that is ideal for people. 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:50.399 Um while still getting that manual movement yourself, so you're still working on your fitness, you're still going out there and going for a push on your own, kind of thing. 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:56.879 Um, you're just making it that little bit easier um because your front wheels aren't digging into anything. 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.959 How do you feel about Jack's like Lamborghini Porsche light? 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:01.519 It's lovely. 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:02.560 Yeah, it's lovely. 00:08:02.720 --> 00:08:04.399 It's got a few marks, I've had it a while. 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:10.480 But is it but do you think like that that expense difference is it just that he's just a show off with his um sports car world show? 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:15.839 He he works, he he worked, he can he he might have got a good discount on it because it's yeah, yeah. 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.879 Um I definitely say it has its advantages, that's for sure. 00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:32.000 I I should have come with my sunglasses and my uh my my like sports tops just I think for lots of people that would be an aspiration, but possibly one that would not be like 11 grand, even with pip and all sorts right. 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.080 That is not a cheap thing to have. 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:38.720 Um for people who don't know what pip is pip

is personal independence payments. 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:41.360 So lots of disabled people have that as a benefit. 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.840 It's a non-means tested benefit, so you can have it in work or not. 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:52.000 It you don't have to be poorly to get it, you can absolutely be in work to get it, because I assume we both get it. 00:08:52.000 --> 00:09:03.759 It's a it's a it's a useful benefit, it can help pay for, depending on how you're assessed, it can help pay for um well you can lease a motability vehicle through it. 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:21.039 So I drive a motability vehicle, it takes up a good chunk of that benefit, so I don't see most of it, but that means I can have an element of independence driving, but you can't drive everywhere, and you definitely can't drive to the well, you can drive to the key, but if you want to see pretty stuff, that's not doable in the car really. 00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:33.440 So like the car is quite the car is functional, it keeps me independent, but it's lovely to be able to get out and about beyond it because because you you need to it's great to be able to get out, yeah. 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:35.679 Away from the car as well, isn't it? 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:36.960 Yeah, definitely. 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:44.879 So talking about the the the chairs and I guess your mobility and your professionalism around basketball. 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:45.519 Yeah. 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.720 Tell us a bit about that journey of how like how did you how does that happen? 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:53.200 How did you become a professional basketballer and what are you doing here in Exeter with with basketball? 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.000 And how do people get into wheelchair basketball? 00:09:56.240 --> 00:10:00.879 Yeah, so I saw I started my wheelchair basketball journey around the age of 13, 14. 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:08.639 Um, by accident, it was certainly by chance where um I went in for daychair fitting because my disability started to progress. 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:13.120 I needed to have a a check to get around at that kind of stage of my life. 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:24.960 And um the guy just said, Oh, you you like basketball because I used to play it running, um, where I'd be running throughout and then I'd be in bed for the next couple of days because my back would give in, kind of thing. 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.240 Um, but then he said, Why not try wheelchair basketball? 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:43.120 There's there's a local club that I know about, and so um persuaded my mum to take me along, and um yeah, all all the rest is history in that respect, where I automatically fell in love with the sport. 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:52.639 It was my my first interaction with other people, disabilities, and different abilities, um, because my family's all able-bodied, my brother's able-bodied, my family's able-bodied, etc. 00:10:52.639 --> 00:11:02.960 And um, you know, I went in there

seeing meeting veterans, meeting people that were had accidents, and they were just playing sport together, so I automatically fell in love with what I did. 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:16.799 Funnily enough, the club in Exeter, and you know, I was lucky enough to sort of slowly go through the ranks, represent the Southwest, represented England, uh, England South at region, uh sort of national level and things like that. 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:21.360 And um, yeah, just then got a contract abroad. 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:22.399 And where? 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:24.559 Um, I lived in Germany for four years. 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:25.759 Where in Germany were we? 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:26.799 Uh Trier. 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:32.080 So um, so I got to experience different culture in terms of accessibility as well. 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:36.320 So it was really nice to sort of meet people from all over the world, basically. 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:41.360 And how was it different in Germany in terms of accessibility compared to being here in Devon? 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:51.039 Um, so it was quite it was quite interesting, really, because in terms of like the the world around you, it was very similar in the respect of you had the same challenges. 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:59.360 So, you know, there was cobbles that you know, where I lived was one of the oldest cities in Germany, so it was, you know, a lot of the stuff they couldn't actually build on. 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:00.799 Um so it was very cobbly. 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:07.600 But the difference in terms of the sport is that you're seen as a professional athlete, so you're treated as so. 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:13.200 So you look have to look after your bodies, you have to train every single day, you have to do all these things. 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:20.399 Whereas in the UK, it's more seen as um a sport that you do for leisure um more than anything else. 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.879 So um it's you you don't see as many people in terms of the crowds or spectators or things like that. 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:34.080 So then it's family and friends and people that are aspiring to be at your sort of in the first team and things like that. 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:45.600 So it's it's a completely different mentality when it comes to disability, I think, um, because you're treated much more as who you are as a person rather than that that scene as a chair in that respect. 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:51.200 So it's it's really interesting seeing the different cultures and how they react to disability in that respect. 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:56.639 Um, but then I came back sort of as COVID at that kind of time. 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:01.120 Um, not purposeful, it was just coincidence, it was the same kind of time. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:09.039 And yeah, just wanted to really rebuild the club, sort of make sure that people knew they were there and what they can do. 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.720 And the club is called? 00:13:10.879 --> 00:13:12.000 Uh the extra otters. 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:12.799 There you go. 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:18.000 Um, they've actually been a club since 1980, I think it is, something like that. 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.960 Um, but it's only been sort of maybe nine or nine to ten wheelchair users. 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:25.759 How are you performing compared to other basketball teams? 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:37.360 Um, um, so we're we're currently we've just been promoted in Premier League, so we're sort of top eight in the country in terms of a house team. 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.840 Um, but we also run a development team, a junior team as well. 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:47.279 So it means that anyone and everyone can sort of access a sport from grassroots to elite. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:49.679 We're also doing Euro Cup this year as well. 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:55.519 So we haven't we don't know what country we're going to yet, but I just hope it's sunny, basically. 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:02.559 But also, isn't it, with wheelchair basketball, any like you can be able-bodied, like you can you can play, can't you? 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:06.320 You don't have to be a wheelchair user necessarily to play wheelchair basketball. 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:08.879 Yeah, it's um it's the beauty of the sport to be honest. 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:17.200 Uh sort of why I fell in love with what the sport can achieve and what they can do, it's because wheelchair basketball is a sport for everyone. 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:26.480 So like I don't describe it as a disability sport, I describe it as an inclusion sport because you can go from you know, like a high spinal injury to someone that's able-bodied. 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:27.679 Like I no idea. 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:40.080 Did the the people who have disabilities who are dependent on wheelchairs, are they not to feel like displaced or upset by an able-bodied person coming along and you know participating? 00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:40.799 It's a great case. 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:42.399 Being in a first team or something? 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:44.639 No, I don't I don't think that's the case at all. 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:50.720 And it's sort of you have a classification in place in order to kind of negate that. 00:14:50.720 --> 00:15:00.000 Um, so someone that's able-bodied would be a class five, someone with a more severe disability would be a class one, and you're only allowed 14 and a half points on court anytime. 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.960 So it means you're not putting five able-bodied players on. 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:10.320 Um, so you're kind of negating that the opportunity to be able to do that by by having that classification system. 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.799 I assume that I would be excluded because I'm not a normally a wheelchair user. 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:27.840 For people in Exeter and Devon specifically, if they want to get involved in um sports like wheelchair basketball or

wheelchair rugby or other things, like what is there out there that um people can do and when do they take place? 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.120 How can people find out about them? 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.960 Yeah, so you talk about the inclusion element of uh wheelchair basketball. 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.000 It's exactly why sort of I created these open sessions. 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:46.559 So anyone and everyone, the matter of ability, age, gender, can just come along, play a sport, and just you know, socialise with other people with it with other disabilities. 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:54.240 Even if you're a boarded, you can come along and sort of see what it's like to be in a chair, that kind of thing, and just be part of a community where everyone's welcome. 00:15:54.240 --> 00:16:00.480 Um, so I run the open sessions every Saturday down at Wantford Leisure Centre, um, and we start at one o'clock. 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:13.360 Um, but even if you're not ready to join in the sport, I drag my mum along to the sessions to um do like a coffee meeting group because there is much more to disability than just a person that has a disability. 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:18.960 For example, there's the parents, there's the carers, there's um siblings, things like that. 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:29.519 So they can just come along, have a coffee, experience what the sport can do for people without actually joining in in the session themselves, and then when they're ready, they can just hop in. 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:40.320 Um, you get a lot of people that have anxiety about playing different sports or being in different atmospheres, they're also welcome to kind of relax, see what we're about before they even join in as well. 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.480 It's a really relaxed atmosphere. 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:50.559 We take everyone as as they come, kind of thing, and sort of listen to what their needs are before we sort of put them in the deep end as such. 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:52.720 Um, and yeah, there we go. 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.519 Great, and they can visit your website to find out more. 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.559 Yeah, um, just Google extra otters, um, it'll come up, um, hopefully. 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.400 And um, our website is just otters.basketball. 00:17:04.400 --> 00:17:06.160 Um, yeah, there you go. 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:06.640 Love that. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:07.039 Do you know what? 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:26.400 I when I think about um walking in the countryside specifically and people going using footpaths, I actually struggle to think of many or any groups that are actually as inclusive as what you're describing there in terms of people with a like a full range of ages and abilities taking part in things, particularly outside of urban areas. 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:31.200 Um, and I'd love to hear about that if that's taking place and uh see what the best practice is around that. 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:32.799 Yeah, if it helps

as well. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:37.599 So our age range, our youngest is six years old, our oldest is 76. 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:44.960 Um, so it it's not very often that you get to see different generations experit like play play sport together. 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:50.720 Um it's a fully inclusive sport in the sense of male and females don't get split up or anything like that. 00:17:50.720 --> 00:18:00.720 So um it just means that everyone's together, and I think that creates a better, a better environment for all inside sport and outside sport as well. 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:16.960 Um, it creates a dependence, it creates that that social interaction between people with disabilities and without, and it just means that everyone can be together, essentially, um, which is something I really wanted to kind of um enforce into the into the club as well. 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:22.079 Um we've got overall about um it's about 50 players now. 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.920 Um that's not including like parents, officials, things like that as well. 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:31.759 So a very big community, and we're just constantly growing, which is just great for me to see for sure. 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:38.640 Thinking about people getting out and about exploring like the city or the countryside, I've got sort of a couple of questions for you. 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:47.680 One is is there an equivalent of that for people of all ages for wheelchair users you can think of in terms of like getting out and inspiring people? 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:52.160 And also, um, just following on from that, like how would you feel? 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:59.359 Like what what's the politics, the emotions around able-bodied people using wheelchairs to maybe explore those kinds of spaces if they want to? 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:14.000 Like, would that I know there's I know there's two questions wrapped up in that, but but how does that all work in terms of more people getting out and about and also having like I guess an experience of the city or the countryside who don't need a wheelchair? 00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:27.920 So one thing I try and promote, especially in sort of the grassroots level, is independence in wheelchair users because it's vital for people to still do things themselves and achieve everything they can to the highest level that they can. 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:37.279 Um, like for example, a lot of the kids, I sort of promote them pushing their own sports chair in, so they'll be pushing their day chair while pushing their sort of sports chair. 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:38.880 Well, that that's a that's a minimum. 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.440 Yeah, so they're part of just pushing in like this. 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:56.240 Um, but what it does is as they get older and they become contributing members of society and things like that outside of the sport, they become more independent and more used to doing things themselves, which I think is a really important skill that wheelchair basketball can teach people. 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:15.920 Um so, and I don't see an issue at all in you know, if you've got an able-bodied friend to jump in a chair and experience what it's like to be a wheelchair user, um, especially when going outdoors and going out on sort of forest bushes and things like that, how much more is it difficult it is walking in terms of being in a wheelchair? 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:25.920 So I don't think there would be any issues in that, to be honest, because um, you know, you're sort of experiencing what a wheelchair user would experience in that time as well. 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:34.079 And you're not sort of being, I don't think in that setting you you couldn't be seen to be taking advantage of, like there's not many advantages to being disabled, right? 00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:36.000 But you know, the parking, yeah, that's it. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.480 But but you only need the parking because parking is hard, right? 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:41.359 So it's even that's not really a bonus, but it can be handy. 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:43.119 But that's not taking advantage, isn't it? 00:20:43.119 --> 00:20:45.119 That's almost experiential. 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:49.200 You are seeing what it's like to be in a wheelchair of my degree. 00:20:49.200 --> 00:21:01.119 What I what I wanted to comment on, so I'm not a sports sporty person, I'm particularly since COVID, but I was a part of Devon Racketeers, okay, which is the wheelchair. 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:08.000 Well, it now it's broader than this, it's an inclusive disabled Badmington Club, also runs an extra name. 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:08.799 I'm sure it's still running. 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.440 It was the racketeers, I know, isn't it? 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:12.640 It's quite hard to spell. 00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:14.079 It's lots and lots and lots of about. 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:15.119 Do you spell that? 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.000 Do you know how to spell that? 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:19.359 Well, it racket E-E-R-S. 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:20.559 There you go. 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:25.200 So with a French accent, but yeah, racketeers, it's almost like musketeers. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:32.480 But what I found great about that is that again, like I I didn't grow up with my disability. 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:34.799 Mine's being mine's a progressive condition. 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:41.039 And what it was lovely about going to a club or is just being with other people in a similar setting. 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:47.200 I'm the only like disabled person, wheelchair user that you know is in my friendship group. 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.519 And it was it was almost a relief to go. 00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:52.480 Ah, it's more of us, it's not just me. 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.519 But it but it's a really positive feeling, actually. 00:21:55.519 --> 00:22:11.440 It's like it's you get a bit of peer support from that, and then you can to

together sort of figure out sort of adventures and going off and sort of doing stuff as part of that group and I I re I was really appreciative of that element of group sport. 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.519 What c what kind of adventures would you go on then? 00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:18.319 Well no, just just like I think through it I've I got some really good friendships through it. 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:27.200 And we have gone we've gone and done stuff and I'm not I can't be more specific than stuffed, but we we we ended up doing stuff outside of the the club. 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:28.640 Friend stuff, yeah. 00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:43.839 Yeah I think it's vital to have a lot more inclusion sports because um I say it's a great way we've got quite a lot of siblings that come along as well so it gives them an opportunity to play sport together where they couldn't necessarily go down the park and kick a football. 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:47.519 They can get on court both get in wheelchairs and play wheelchair basketball together. 00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:53.119 Same would be with Badminton as well you can just experience that together. 00:22:53.119 --> 00:23:02.559 So like my brother and I we played wheelchair basketball together as well could you beat him it was one sport I actually could as well which was quite quite good. 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:22.000 We tried rugby um but as in when we were sort of running around but he's much stronger than what I am to be honest well I shouldn't say that on a on a podcast hopefully you won't listen to this at all but it it gave me that experience to play a sport where actually I could beat him at stuff as well for sure. 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.279 Defin definitely helped me play longer that's for sure. 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.960 Thank you so much for listening to the Goodways podcast. 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.920 Have you got any questions you'd like us to answer about Goodways or something related? 00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:46.319 Send us a voice note or a text on WhatsApp to 07513 437207 or by email to hello at goodways.org. 00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:48.880 Not a founding member of Goodways yet? 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.200 Join us on goodways.org. 00:23:51.519 --> 00:24:03.359 Hi I'm Rowene I work in the field of walk advocacy and particularly interested in countryside access issues for walkers and wheelers but particularly for wheelchair users and users of mobility scooters and all-train chairs. 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:09.920 A large part of my work at the moment is concerned with barrier removal and public rights away that is to say literal physical barriers. 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:14.880 I've been involved with Goodways from the beginning and on the back of the inspirational Slowways project. 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:31.599 My wish through the Goodways project is for there to come a day I hope in the near future when if I have a free weekend and the weather's good I will have the confidence to know as a full-time wheelchair user myself that there's a whole range of route choices out there for me to plan a day out off-road in the countryside around. 00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:37.759 Not because they've been magicked up or newly created but because I know I can find good information about them. 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:46.319 Information I need that will allow me to plan my day with relative ease just exactly as any other walker does and more importantly any cyclist does. 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:59.759 A day when being on four wheels is no more of a disadvantage to me than anybody on two wheels and I can plan days out around areas of interest other than simply where I already know I can physically manage to get to. 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:06.799 So that's what I wish for and I don't think it's too far away and I'm super happy that Goodways is on the case. 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:12.559 Hi I'm Sophie I'm the founder of Bristol Steppin's Sisters and a qualified level three walk leader. 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:22.799 My interests include walking outdoor adventures health and wellbeing community engagement cultural heritage and bringing people together through shared experiences. 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:32.480 I am passionate about creating inclusive opportunities for adults families and young people to connect with nature improve their wellbeing and build friendships. 00:25:32.480 --> 00:25:49.839 My wish for Goodways is to bring people from different backgrounds together encourage healthier lifestyles strengthen communities and inspire more people to enjoy the outdoors I hope to share ideas learn from others and work together to make a positive difference for people's lives. 00:25:50.160 --> 00:26:14.880 So thinking about I mean this this project Goodways is all about helping people to get out be more active explore discover new places I mean the hope really is that the information stops being a barrier like we're not going to be going out ourselves and working at how we remove all the things that stop people from getting outside and exploring the countryside or the city but I think we strongly believe that information or lack of sharing knowledge shouldn't be the thing that stops people. 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:30.400 When thinking about the things that either help you to explore the city or the countryside or the things that don't like what would make a good way for you in terms of finding a way around and how much do you like outside the basketball court how adventurous are you? 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.200 I would say I'm pretty adventurous to be honest. 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:40.640 I like to try new things I like to get out my wife and I go traveling or go out all the time on walks and go down the beach and things like that. 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:46.160 Not on the sand I'm not that brave but in terms Why why why not the sand? 00:26:46.160 --> 00:28:07.039 Oh the sand eats up your yeah you can't go on the sand you the chair sinks into the sand yeah my I

I went on holiday this was when I was um a lot younger with my my family um down in Cornwall and it was a quite a big hill up until sand and I was like yeah cool great I'll just let my chair go it's downhill but once I hit the sand the wheelchair stopped I didn't um so let's just say our face planned has your have you not designed yet a like sled-based sand-based wheelchair you just think so they're you have like a say that they exist they do exist actually um so there are equipment out there to allow you to go on sand um so things like a power assist on the front of your chair and mounted bike wheels will help you become more or make things more accessible to you as such uh for sure and um a friend of mine actually does have like track wheels as well so they can go off-road um and things like that they they're kind of they're really chunky things um but it allows allows them to go on on beaches and things like that so and some beaches and I haven't been brave enough I don't I couldn't quite face Exmouth this year because it's too hot in the summer and too many people but Xmouth you can hire and Seaton I think has it there there'll be other places around Devon as well but you can hire beach chairs. 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:15.359 So and I'd so and they're massive tyres aren't they I do miss I'm I'd like to be able to dip my toe into the sea again I do miss that. 00:28:15.519 --> 00:29:18.640 I pro I promenade X Promenade Exmouth that I mean I'll be like our coastline is good for promenading though isn't it we're very lucky to have that in this bit of Devon yeah yeah yeah we're very lucky there um but yeah in terms of like going about I'm quite fortunate where I live um I've got the area of natural beauty as well so I can just clip on a front wheel to lift my front casters up and just go off roading kind of thing and which which area of natural beauty is that um so I live on near Axminster as well so um I'm just on sort of this side of the natural beauty site um but I can just go off and go for a push kind of thing um clip on my power assist if I you know maybe I've got an achiev shoulder on that day and then just away I go and and what else do you sort of think about because I I think that when I I love sort of the bits of sort of Devon and Dorset around there and all that this is like absolutely beautiful countryside and to be honest I can often go for like hours and see see no one at all actually you can almost have the landscape to yourself. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:36.480 What are the other things that would make I guess a good way for you other than like the kit you have what else would would help you ooh okay so in terms of helping myself I'm very I'm very motivated and very active I like to go out and pushes and everything myself in that respect. 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:50.319 So having that that information like available to me where I can just go okay I fancy going somewhere else today I don't want to go down to my my local site I want to go

out for a drive somewhere and experience somewhere else. 00:29:50.319 --> 00:30:14.720 If I can just flip out my phone for example and just look at what's accessible and what's comfortable for me to be able to use would make a massive difference in where where I can physically go myself because um a lot of wheelchair users won't go places they don't know because they get stuck yeah you can potentially get stuck and then you know being stuck as a wheelchair user is not ideal. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:23.680 So tell me more about that because you'd be you'd be an absolutely like it's very generous of you considering the fact that our project is about creating apps for people to get outdoors to to identify an app would be very useful. 00:30:23.759 --> 00:31:30.880 That's very kind of you and I didn't know what a coincidence what a coincidence and so what like what would you need it what would you want it to actually do and show you that's different from maybe what's there at the moment it or is it there is something that already solves it for you like what do you need my things or quite a lot of people in in general no matter what kind of abilities that they have require an accessible toilet for example so a lot of places um they're outdoors they don't have toilets for example so they're not able to you know just go to the bathroom because it's not not not as easy to be a wheelchair user and go to the bathroom for example that kind of thing um you know so just having a it has an accessible toilet it's just something like that um for example or it's it's a nice easy rounded route or you know it's got this much space where you can go out because a lot of people don't like being in a forest for example it can feel quite claustrophobic for example so you know people want to have an open space so whether there's an option to know that there it's an open area rather than something close knit you know those little things make a difference. 00:31:31.279 --> 00:32:07.200 Just earlier this morning I was at West Bank talking to people there who organise tens of walks across Devon every week they're a charity um just outside Exeter and in Exwick I think it is in there don't sort of all five sorry exminster other side um do really inspiring work and they were saying that for so many people who go on their their walks with them fundamentally they won't have a cup of tea halfway if they don't know there's going to be a toilet or they won't go if there's a toilet um it's just such a such a basic thing to people to know the information about isn't it's an and everyone needs to have that information but you can plan you can plan around it if you know or not that there is. 00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:43.599 And you know in our last conversation we were talking about nettles it we can't we can't just nip to the loo on the side of a pathway you know that's not doable for many people with disabilities and like some you know other people who would have to still be careful of the

nettles but it is really important and I was also thinking Jack of like things I if I imagine going on a country walk there might be a stile or a or or or an irritating fence and and depending on what it is and I've got some mobility so I could just about fathom it but it wouldn't be fun. 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:55.920 But it could be that that journey would have to stop there and you would have to sort of go back on yourself because you can't get to the sort of perhaps the destination point because there's this thing in the way. 00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:18.400 But if you knew about the thing you might be able to figure away see I think it'd be useful for people to know not just about the thing but I think some people are told they can't do a whole route because it's a thing but the thing might be halfway and some people might be happy to go halfway and come back again but equally the thing might be negotiable if you've got someone with you or if you've got the the right bit of kit to deal with that thing and then the rest could be open to you again. 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.680 You need to know what that thing is. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.279 But you need to know what that thing is that's right. 00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:40.640 But you know the the toilet thing um I did a project where I walked across lots of cities in the UK wearing this EEG mind reading device that was measuring my levels of excitement relaxation stress and I was mapping it against different types of land use as I was going um and it was interesting because the place where I was most excited and most relaxed was around woodland and cities. 00:33:40.640 --> 00:34:00.640 But there was this one particular moment when I was walking across um I think it was Swansea and my excitement was really high my focus was really high my stress was really high and then suddenly my relaxation was really high as well and the people in the the the team that were trying to make sense of what was going on these sensors were completely baffled at why I was feeling all these motions at once. 00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:54.079 And I'd gone we was going through this park and I found a loo just in time went for a pee and I felt this enormous like sense of like excitement relaxation uplifting and stress but it it it was a serious point to me I was thinking off the back of this sort of conversation I was having earlier on with with uh Westbank and thinking about uh both myself and ourselves and everyone who needs to use the loo which is by the way like all of us um that it'd be quite fun to map out like actually like all the the public loos all the accessible places to go to the Lou across sort of Exeter across the country but then to start imagining the walking routes to take us between those things not because we want them as our final destination we might actually want to see you know the ofters along the way or whatever else but at least you know that there's going to be somewhere where you can go to the loo and maybe get a cup of tea or um have a drink or something along along your journey and I think that that would help like millions of people. 00:34:54.320 --> 00:35:04.639 And I think that's sort of inclusive of obviously disabilities but also the older populations where you know that's a probably a a a greater need than sort of the youth. 00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:12.960 I think it's really it's really important you don't because you don't want to be you don't want to be embarrassed on journeys do you? 00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:14.719 Like it is is quite a fundamental thing. 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:51.360 I recently went um on a cruise when we were going around the Baltic and I I understand in in the UK like what you know we know roughly where the public lives are don't we like though then you might be finding in a in a department store or a wherever but in a in a foreign city or a foreign different place you don't know and you know we had to pay occasionally you know and I think even stuff like that it's like you uh your description of relaxing once you have found one it's absolutely the trick is not relax too soon isn't it that's that that's the trick. 00:35:51.599 --> 00:36:02.800 Um it's been absolutely fantastic talking to you and hearing about the great stuff you're doing around basketballs and around basketball about just the great the great things you do with basketballs. 00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:11.280 Well it's true it's all about the basketballs and um and how you're inspiring other people to to get more involved in this sport and also the brilliant work you're doing on chairs as well. 00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:18.480 And I've been asking everybody these sort of final couple of questions to round off each episode which is essentially um two things. 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:30.239 So the first thing is um if you were to share a good way that you recommend other people to try it might be a circular route or a long distance route it might be short it might be to a particular place like what might that good way, what might that be? 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:42.320 And also if you were to have a thing with you that would make that journey easier more enjoyable good tip for other people and what would be the thing you would take with you? 00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:49.840 So first off I'd take my wife just to be a little bit more enjoyable have someone to talk to as well in that respect. 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:55.440 So it's always good to go with friends and family and things like that and have that social interaction at the same time. 00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:11.199 My bit of advice is try not to be afraid like use it as a little bit of excitement to to try something new to experience something new in that respect because you never know you might actually enjoy what you're doing in that respect. 00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:32.239 And going back to your app as well what what sort of clicked in my head a little bit was it would be quite interesting to see um whether

there could be an option to have like an individual part or whether you would need to take someone with you in that respect so they know that they can go on their own if they'd like to or whether they need to have someone with them. 00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:34.960 So like two open gates for example and things like that. 00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:43.440 So explain a bit more do you mean that there's like a thing on the app where it says um tell us tell us more so what do you what are you seeing on the app that would enable that journey for you? 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:44.400 Describe it for us. 00:37:44.639 --> 00:38:34.159 Yeah so sort of like having you could do this on your own because it's fully accessible like an example would be um a number of years ago I did a charity event up in Xmoor because it just opened up an accessibility route that's very circular and only about sort of a mile long so it's not very long either so it does involve a lot of activity or a lot of um exertion I guess in some respects and you know you're going back around to where your car is for example um the only issue is there was no toilet that was the only issue but the actual route itself was ideal it was nice and flat it was um it had a nice easy route to go on as well there was a little bit of an incline at one point but apart from that it was nice and easy um but like for that you could do that on your own um and you'd be comfortable and safe to be able to do that. 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:48.079 So if the app said this is safe to do by yourself or whether you're going up to Holding Forest where it's got this massive incline um you might require to have a friend there to be able to help you out as and when you need it. 00:38:48.400 --> 00:39:03.760 Love that insight so like the key thing behind good ways is the idea of saying that this is a good way for right yeah so then we have some tags and we can rate things and say it's a good way for um I got company can come back to this kingfishers right so it's a good way for kingfishers but not just are there kingfishers there. 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:15.039 I want people to know where the kingfishers are so the reason to go out on the journey is to go and see the kingfishers or the otters or the seals but we're gonna let you know where they are or equally where the obstacles are there might be a problem as well. 00:39:15.119 --> 00:41:03.360 But we say good ways for kingfishers for example and then I've got in my mind now we've also got good ways for wheelchairs but for that matter maybe um different types of wheelchair as well because you know it might be like a tramper for going off road versus something that's a um an on-road wheelchair but then there might be like an if you know it's like good ways for you know going with wheelchair if or with um a friend who can help you with um that slope or that particular obstacle and that's really a really powerful insight in terms of equipment sorry I'll answer your second question um

so um I use a front wheel um because I like to be I'm very active I like to push myself I like to do everything myself very independent um so I'll be clicking on a front wheel for example that lifts my front gases up which essentially makes terrain that wouldn't be suitable in this chair suitable essentially um again I wouldn't go on sand with it um or anything like that but if I'm going on a forest walk or anything like that I'll just clip that on and away I go basically um yeah can I just um um just gonna just pause for a moment so and you're you're also you were naughty because you said you're gonna take three things with you haven't mentioned the route you're gonna take so in the back of your mind you can think about what your favourite route member would be okay favourite route okay yeah but um when we came in as as an able body person who doesn't use a wheelchair you guys were starting to have a conversation about the frustration with able bodied people asking questions and not listening what is the question that will trigger you guys to start that conversation again for our able body listeners to hear your opinion on those things I don't know what the questions I can I can share the questions I get asked. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:19.679 Is it is that interesting one because it's always balanced for me so like if you wanted to ask me a question about my disability or what my needs are I also can't get my back up and get defensive at someone that's not in the same situation. 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:26.239 It's like I ask a forklift driver how he drives a forklift and then it gets funny at me asking about that question. 00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:34.880 You know it kind of it's kind of that that conversation is I'm happy to have and I'm fully open and I don't I don't get insulted by anything to be honest. 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:50.480 And for and for me it's it's the context of being asked questions so I can quite regularly get asked why are you in a wheelchair it's almost what's wrong with you right it's not that I don't get asked that but it's all it can be that and like I can be asked it by completely random people just shopping. 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:57.119 It's like it's none of your business I I will answer it if it's useful and it's in context. 00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:16.400 So completely random people completely random and it possibly is slightly because I think I I look quite friendly I'm a woman and I I might get asked that question more than you get asked that question about being as a gender might be a gender thing but you get you get in pubs you don't want you get asked some very cheeky questions in pubs. 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:41.199 Because I think peop there's a curiosity but it's also frankly none of their business because you're asking about you could answer it with a very if I'm if I'm feeling at all grumpy and I get asked that I could go into actually well my diagnosis this and this and this this is the bad stuff they go have that deal with it because you shouldn't be asking people but it does depend on the context. 00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:56.079 I don't mind it when it's little kids because they're curious and I don't that's mum why is she in a chair and I go oh it's because my legs get really tired that's fine but I wouldn't want the mum asking out of the blue while you're in chair because it isn't her business. 00:42:56.400 --> 00:43:08.320 I think I I kind of get I get asked that quite a lot as well um it's I I think it's just curiosity more than anything I don't quite get sort of insulted by it or anything like that. 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:31.280 Yeah but the thing that used to get me quite often was the like I go down to the shop for example be getting my milk and I'd be like oh you're doing so amazing I'm like I'm just getting my milk it's okay like oh you're so inspiring um I'm just a guy sat down at the end of the day like you know if that if that motivates you to be a better person than yourself then fine. 00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:32.800 I don't mind that at all. 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:43.840 The other thing that used to get me a little bit when I was younger not so much now is someone would come up to me put their hand on the shoulder and just say it's so amazing that you do what you do. 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:59.280 That used to really ground my gears because like I say I've I did forensic science microbiology I've traveled all over the world I've done all these things um and you know if that inspires you great I don't mind that but I am just a guy sat down. 00:43:59.280 --> 00:43:59.840 That is it 00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.360 Doing it entirely normal stuff. 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:02.159 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:03.599 I'm just pushing around. 00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:05.599 You can be very condescended to. 00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:35.599 So I'm going to be really careful about how you phrase this question because I don't want to say well, no, I I I don't want to I don't want to come across as being sort of like like um it's I'm not meant to drawing a comparison exactly, but I am kind of drawing a comparison in what the in the example I'm gonna give you for you to then give me an example back, which is that being vegan, quite often I'll go to a restaurant and like I'm just as hungry, if not more hungry than the people who are eating the lamb, but quite often like I'll be charged like twice the amount for a bit of aubergine than the person who's eating like the bit of meat. 00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:37.440 And it's sort of so infuriating. 00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:48.079 So it's like as someone who's vegan, right, or like plant-based, like I have the same taste buds, I have the same level of hunger, and I know what a vegetable costs, and yet I get rinsed every turn. 00:44:48.079 --> 00:45:00.639 And I almost feel like having like a card that I can leave with chefs saying, you know, no more Thai curries and give me a good portion size, and you

know, there's like certain things I'd like to say to all chefs. 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:09.519 So if you could have a card that you could use in that sort of moment when like you're in the supermarket and it was to say like to people, you know, what are you talking about? 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:15.280 What would there be some some rules or things you would say that's just like come on, guys? 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:16.239 I don't know. 00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:22.480 I don't know how that I could because you need slightly different responses, as I say, depending on who's asking. 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:26.000 Well, I regularly still get asked have you got a driving license for that thing? 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:27.119 Ha ha ha. 00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:31.199 Oh, if you ask that like that's all it was almost weekly at one point. 00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:38.639 I I get it quite a lot where um when I park in blue badge bays, all someone sees is this and upwards. 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:41.599 So quite often, we're too young to be determined. 00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:42.480 Yeah, I see. 00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:43.840 I get that quite a bit. 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:46.639 Um so like it this just happened the other week, actually. 00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:48.400 A traffic warden came up to me. 00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.000 I was like, you can't park here. 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.480 I said, Well, I've got a blue badge, you know. 00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:57.760 And they were like, Well, okay, but you could have stolen that. 00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:04.400 And so I I respond with a little bit more humor, and so I'm just like, Do you mind just getting my chair out the back? 00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:05.039 Is that all right? 00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:05.920 Do you mind? 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:09.760 And then their face just drops, and then they go, Well, you don't look disabled. 00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:16.239 Um, and I'm like, Well, I don't know whether that's a compliment, or I don't really know how to take that, um, or anything like that. 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:18.719 And I'm well, seriously, can you get my chair out the back? 00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.480 It saves me getting it, to be fair. 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:27.840 So that's quite handy, but um I I think it's just and I was talking about this the other day. 00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:35.679 I think it's more being open to have that conversation because it's not actually a bad thing, it's just education more than anything. 00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:42.559 Because um, like I say, a lot of people don't necessarily experience disability, you know. 00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:48.000 Like I'm in the disability world, I see people all the time of all varying abilities and disabilities. 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.400 But a lot of people won't have that. 00:46:50.400 --> 00:47:02.320 So being open and honest, having that conversation and being okay being asked that question, but at the same time being okay answering that question, and just having that little bit of humour with it as well. 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:10.960 Um, I think just gives you that little bit of humanity in that respect rather than just being defensive on both sides and insulting someone. 00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:20.159 Like it's it's okay to ask questions, it's okay to have that education because without it, you're not gonna know, I'm not gonna know. 00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:31.119 I think I feel like you guys are giving me a good schooling on my plant baseness, and I used to cra I need to crack jokes about aubergines rather than cut them rather than have a play card. 00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:42.800 Can I also say though, that if if if anyone is out and about and sees anyone who might be using a mobility aid or anything, and that it looks like what they're doing is hard, and it might be. 00:47:42.800 --> 00:47:49.920 This is particularly for wheelchair users, but I'm sure it happens to everyone else, is do not go up and do it for them. 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:51.679 Ask if they want help. 00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:55.440 And a lot of the time I will probably say no, thank you, I'm all right. 00:47:55.440 --> 00:48:06.400 Sometimes you do need help, but ask and then listen to the answer because to be pushed behind you, you can't it's it's it's really unpleasant. 00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:13.599 So please, everyone, this is for everyone, but please ask if someone needs a hand and then really listen to the answer. 00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:16.320 That's a really good, really good point. 00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:21.199 Um, where again I've always been very active, I've always wanted to do everything myself. 00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:28.800 So I used to um push to and from secondary school when I was old enough to sort of do it myself and sort of go along with my friends and things. 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:37.920 And where I lived, there was a very steep hill, and so I used to push up and down it, um, sort of in the mornings, in the afternoons, things like that. 00:48:37.920 --> 00:48:43.440 And I was going up the hill myself, music in, I was only about 14 or 15. 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:50.719 And somewhere I'd suddenly got a lot faster, and I was like, either I've got really strong, or all of a sudden, or someone's pushing me up there. 00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:54.000 So I looked behind some person's just pushed me up the hill. 00:48:54.000 --> 00:49:02.159 And instead, what confused him was I went back down the hill to push back up it, and he stood at the hill the whole time not quite knowing what to do. 00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:11.599 Um, and you know, we sort of had a brief conversation beforehand, and I've always been quite open and honest and open to having that conversation. 00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:15.840 I just said, Well, if you saw someone walk slowly up a hill, would you push them up? 00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:18.719 You know, it's it's kind of like having that conversation there. 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:31.039 It's it's okay to ask a

question like if you see someone struggling, it's only human nature to ask if they're okay and ask if they need help, but do ask rather than you know just creeping up behind them. 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:46.800 Yeah, I mean for me, the for me the dream thing where we get to with with good ways is um some of the things we've talked about in terms of there being sort of barriers and obstacles, which is obviously like comes up a lot as a conversation because the environment and information is the thing that's disabling people, right? 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:55.119 Um, that when I look at what we're producing, I really want to be able to inspire people by the thing that's going to motivate them to enjoy the journey. 00:49:55.119 --> 00:50:08.559 You know, that there's gonna be a great view, you're gonna get to go and dip your feet in the sea, whatever thing is gonna motivate you, and actually somehow we manage to get enough people together to share the information so that if there is an accessible way to go, we're sharing that. 00:50:08.559 --> 00:50:17.280 We can't make the whole landscape accessible, but the least we can do is try and create a landscape of of of information that lets people know where they can go. 00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:28.079 We can do that by sharing routes, lines on maps, um, by sharing with people voices of people saying to go left or right, or stories and more photographs showing good ways to go. 00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:35.280 And when I think of a lot of the existing projects and apps that are out there, they're designed predominantly by people like me. 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:42.639 So confident map reading men who are probably white, might have a beard, um, who know how to use technical. 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:43.760 Like you have a beard, eh? 00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:44.320 Yeah. 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:49.599 And your beards are another thing where people, anyone feels like, like the weather, small dogs. 00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:53.760 Um, beards are also another icebreaker in any lift or conversation. 00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:58.000 Um, but but they they they whether you want that or not, right? 00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:35.199 It's interesting for me, sometimes we're like, I'd I didn't ask you to come on my beard, like, you know, my beard is not like public, well, maybe it's public, but but um um what I'm desperately wanting to do, and the reason why we've been work starting to work together, Leila, and why we're working together with disabilities together and and opening out what we're doing in terms of the design process of good ways, is that we want to design for the people who are often intentionally designed out, because a lot of the big companies say, well, we can design for 80% of people who know roughly what they're doing and do fairly easy things and make lots of money from them, and we don't need to worry about this other audience over here. 00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:46.159 But in reality, I think that if we, for example, design as inclusively as possible, we can't do it, we can't design for everyone, you know, brilliantly from the get-go, then that will help everybody. 00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:53.920 And that for me, a really good example of that is on the app and the project to begin with, we'll have maps and people following lines on maps because that's a starting point. 00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:57.360 But we know that about half of the population struggle to read a map. 00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:01.119 And then there's another group of the population who actually struggle even to see. 00:52:01.119 --> 00:52:10.880 So, actually, if we can help the people who can't see to find their way, we'll also help all the people who can see but can't read a map to find their way as well, which at one point or another is going to be a lot of us as well. 00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:19.280 And we can go through right through, I think, those examples where we try and design for different audiences, other audiences and other communities will benefit as well. 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:37.360 Um, and I think that um in Exeter, if we can find people and across the country, we can find people who can share with other people a good way to go for the people who share their interests, um, the thing they enjoy, which might be going to a nice pub, it might also be getting to the loo on time. 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:41.840 Um, then I think that'd be a really beautiful, powerful thing, which leaves me with my final question. 00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:55.440 I know we sort of pivoted and have come back again, but if you were to recommend one good way for other people to follow, can you think of a route somewhere either here in Exeter or Devon or Dorset or nationally that you think would be good for others to follow? 00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:58.880 So I used to enjoy quite often going up. 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:03.199 Um, I used to have a handbike that I borrowed for quite a while. 00:53:03.199 --> 00:53:19.760 And I used to go up to the Tarka Trail up in Barcelona because it's a it's nice, flat, it's long, um, and it so it means that you can access it easily, it's it's easy to use for everyone, there's a lot of space, um, and you get some beautiful views along the way, kind of thing. 00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:24.480 So, definitely the the Tarka Trail was something I would I would sort of edge towards for sure. 00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:25.440 Yeah, brilliant. 00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:26.880 It's absolutely beautiful up there, isn't it? 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:27.840 It's absolutely fantastic. 00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:28.400 Definitely. 00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:33.679 Um, thank you both so much for joining us on the podcast and for joining us again as well. 00:53:33.679 --> 00:53:37.280 Um very much hope to see you on Goodways at some point in the future. 00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:40.480 Oh, definitely, but I'll definitely give a bit of look, that's for sure. 00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:41.440 Thank you. 00:53:41.440 --> 00:53:41.920 Thank you. 00:53:41.920 --> 00:53:43.119 Thank you very much. 00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:46.719 Thank you for listening to the Goodways podcast. 00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:52.480 We are very grateful that this episode has been supported by Active Travel England's Innovation Fund. 00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.639 Want to find or share great roots? 00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:56.559 Got a question or an idea? 00:53:56.559 --> 00:53:59.280 Join us on goodways.org. 00:53:59.280 --> 00:54:01.920 Until next time, see you on Goodways.