บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Drinking With Leonard Cohen, Photographing Legends & Bringing History To Life With G. Scott MacLeod

That was uh one of the McGill rooms, uh McGill University in Montreal, and he was touring with Michelle Shocht, in fact, and he flipped his guitar around. 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:12.959 It was when Bush Sr. 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:17.839 was running for election and you know the British jab, you know, we're gonna let this boston, you know. 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:18.160 Yeah. 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:22.720 So um, anyways, he he had a lot of chuckles, very funny guy, very accessible. 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:25.759 Uh I recently saw him about uh two months ago in Montreal. 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:27.040 He's doing another tour. 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:27.519 Right. 00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:29.120 And uh still got it. 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:36.000 People are singing along with the lyrics, and uh he doesn't seem to have gone off track in terms of his politics and his views. 00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:38.480 No, he's the real deal. 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:39.439 I agree. 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:44.000 Uh what I fascinated by your brief discussion of the Montreal Mirror, right? 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:59.439 The Montreal Mirror Um is uh this uh this belief that music should matter, and I feel like if you go north of the border, it's a little bit more obvious that that's a part of the culture than it is if you just go south, right? 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:15.519 Um Do you feel that a little bit, the difference in cultures as you head down to New York, New York City, and it's uh maybe the the music in Alphabet City doesn't exactly have the same I say Alphabet City because as you get to the bottom of Manhattan you get the music that you can afford to get into. 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:16.000 Yes. 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:40.240 But uh there was a time when you could afford to get into hearing somebody talk about something that mattered, and and more and more the same clubs that I played as a songwriter, uh uh they no longer they're more about they literally will say they're about exposure and about getting on the on the gravy train of uh maybe YouTube or Spotify is the weapons manufacturer Spotify, right? 00:06:40.800 --> 00:06:47.279 Um but whereas in Canada I feel like you know we have this guided by voices kind of always in the spotlight. 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:53.680 There's always a tradition of uh lyrics mattering or content mattering more than style. 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:55.040 Yeah, I could say that. 00:06:55.120 --> 00:07:02.000 You know, Len Cohen, first we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin, you know, his album The Future, uh, and and further in his romance stories as well. 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:04.079 I mean, he was a pretty b broad poet. 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:04.720 Yeah. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:18.399 Um and also yeah, during the punk uh new wave movement, I remember in Montreal, there were a lot of bands that uh were you know striking up a pose for something that they were against or for. 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.439 Um that era you were gonna say something. 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.079 Sorry, yeah, you we were talking about 88, but at what point did you start photocotographing? 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:28.160 Um high school. 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.319 I was uh the the yearbook photographer. 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:31.920 Yeah, but you look 10 year than me. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:33.120 I have no idea when this would be. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.079 Uh okay, so I I was in high school in the 70s. 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:39.360 I graduated in 82, um, 61 now. 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:42.560 So uh born in 65, and uh myself. 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.160 So you were photographing in the 80s in the at the turn of the 80s, yeah. 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:54.160 So you were there for the punk, great punk movement, and then and I don't know what it was like in Canada, but like so you're are the Ramones coming through? 00:07:54.560 --> 00:07:55.279 Yes, absolutely. 00:07:55.360 --> 00:08:00.079 We had a famous club in Montreal called the Foufon Electric, which means uh electric ass cheeks. 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:01.439 Uh the translation. 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.040 It still exists, still there. 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.079 And this is we need to get this on our travel itinerary. 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:07.839 Electric ass cheeks? 00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:09.279 Just Montreal in general. 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.839 I I I feel deeply embarrassed that I've never been. 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:15.600 But Montreal features so strongly in everything I read because yeah, as you said. 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.319 So the Ramones came through electric ass cheeks. 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:19.759 Yeah, exactly. 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:28.480 And and other, I mean, you you name a punk band or uh there was a strong uh love for metal, for punk, alternative. 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:42.399 I mean, all forms of music and being a bilingual you know culture that Canada is, Montreal is sort of like this epicenter where you have not any multiculturalism, like I grew up around a lot of people that were trilingual and multiple languages. 00:08:42.639 --> 00:08:48.720 So there was these crossovers of of the European culture coming in and other, you know, from other parts of the world. 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:55.519 So there's a uh not only do I say in in terms of menu of food, was there a fusion, but also in the music. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:58.960 So people could like Daniel Lanois, who produced U2. 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:00.480 Oh, he comes up again. 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:01.200 Yeah, yeah. 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:16.159 So Daniel Lanois was, you know, on uh Francophone, uh French Canadian, and uh he he sang in French, you know, uh he had a famous song um that was called uh it was a tobacco picking song called Au Marie. 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:26.240 And that is traditionally based in the Quebec style of singing call and answer, yeah, but then you know produced Gabriel and you too and and go in this other realm. 00:09:26.559 -->

00:09:35.360 So but as a songwriter himself, he he really crossed, he was able to create bring that bilingual uh narrative in uh and culture, which was fascinating. 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.519 He I've seen him many times, beautiful, beautiful uh performer or singer-songwriter. 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:40.720 I feel so ignorant. 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:44.000 I had no idea that I know his production. 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:53.759 One of my favorite records is Lanois of all things, the Neil Young record he did, which I should be yeah, I always have these boomer references that I always like this older stuff. 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:58.159 But um I did not realize he's a great bilingual artist himself. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:09:58.559 Absolutely. 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:02.399 Okay, which which record should I get from uh from Daniel Lanois? 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:04.559 Okay, the his Wait, did I say it right? 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:07.200 I always say Lanois, but it's yeah, yeah, Daniel Lanois. 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:07.519 Okay. 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:18.480 I can do the Quebec and I can do my Metropolitan French or uh Quebec French, which is a real patois, it's a real yeah it's like we're the Texans a bit of of the Franco Folie, I guess you could say. 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:18.879 Okay. 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:20.879 Yeah, we got some interesting expressions. 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:21.519 Yeah. 00:10:21.759 --> 00:10:22.159 Yeah. 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:23.759 So which record do I get for the first one? 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:25.360 I would get his first one, Akezi. 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:25.840 Okay. 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:31.679 Yeah, that to me, uh guys uh uh you two play on it and other, and you know, yeah, that's strong. 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:33.519 You two play on his first record. 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:34.399 Of course they do. 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:34.799 Wow. 00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:37.039 Well it's it's a it's a keeper. 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:41.679 To me, it's sort of like part of the Canadian songbook to me. 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:47.039 You know, it it's got such strong roots in Canadian story and and French Canadian story. 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:47.279 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:51.120 And your Canadian songbook I'm I l I'm obsessed with the American songbook. 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:53.440 But is it go a different direction? 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:58.000 Like what are what else are the so that are they all often multilingual, the Canadian songbook? 00:10:58.320 --> 00:10:59.840 Um no, it's it's pretty broad. 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:05.279 I mean, there's uh obviously a very strong, you know, we were talking about Neil Young earlier and and uh like Gordon Lightfoot. 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:07.519 Gordon Lightfoot, you just took the word out of my mouth. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.039 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:15.200 Gordon was uh he's uh highly, highly regarded, and uh and others, Cohen as well, you know. 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:15.679 Right. 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:16.720 Who you say, Lynn? 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.200 I'd never heard I never heard anybody s shorten it to Lynn. 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:20.240 Well Lynn, yeah, right. 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:22.320 Did you talk to him when you were photographing? 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:23.120 Oh my god, yeah. 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:24.399 Uh that's what you did? 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:25.279 I did, yeah. 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:26.480 Um this is weird. 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:27.919 Okay, so it's my first job. 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:33.519 I just got hired at the mirror, and the editor uh said, Okay, Scott, you and Martin are gonna go photograph Leonard Cohen. 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:34.480 It's 1988. 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.960 I'm your man tour at such and such a hotel. 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:38.080 And I'm like, Leonard Cohen. 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.840 He says, Yeah, it's gonna be so we need a cover shot and we want to insert for the article. 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:43.039 I'm like, okay. 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.080 And I was a bit, you know, intimidated. 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:56.000 Uh we arrive at the hotel and he's out in the terrass and he's wearing the you know, the nice jacket with the beautiful shirt and sitting there having a smoke, and he had a bottle of Advil in front of him. 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.639 I'm like, hmm, maybe a bit hung over from the night before. 00:11:58.720 --> 00:11:59.200 Who knows? 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:02.000 Because I know he, you know, he liked to mix it up a bit. 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:02.399 Right. 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:09.679 So we removed the Advil bottle and Martin starts interviewing him, and I'm squatting down beside him on the edge of the table. 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.200 And I just come back from Dublin. 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:20.159 I had a Celtic Cross tattoo done in Montreal, and uh, you know, reclaiming my Scottish-Irish heritage a bit uh by self-abuse. 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:25.840 And uh so Len leans over and he looks, he says, Oh, Celtic Cross, are you Scottish-Irish? 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:27.039 I said, I'm both uh Mr. 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:27.519 Cohen. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:28.639 You know, I didn't call him Len. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:28.879 Right. 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.639 And uh, anyways, he goes, uh, oh, I just came back from Dublin. 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.480 I said uh as I did, I said, and he says, Yeah, yeah, a friend of mine got a tattoo just like that. 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:37.279 You want a drink? 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.159 And I go, uh, it's 10 in the morning, Mr. 00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:40.639 Cohen. 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:41.440 Uh, we're working. 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:42.720 He says, Ah, it doesn't matter. 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:45.679 Every time I do an album, I do this drink called the Red Needle. 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:46.799 I make it for all the band members. 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:48.559 I said,

The Red Needle, what's that? 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:53.360 And he says, Well, um, cranberry juice, tequila, some ice, a bit of fruit. 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.600 Anyways, don't worry, I'll get them to make them for us. 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:56.799 And the drinks come. 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:03.360 And we're sitting there knocking back the drinks and you know, giving us we'd like we're not like Rolling Stone or Spin Magazine or anything. 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.639 Gives us the time of day, total gentleman. 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:10.240 And I think he's feeling a little better. 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:12.879 I think the maybe the hangover subsiding a bit. 00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:13.279 Yeah. 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.840 And then uh I it's analog film. 00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:17.200 I have one last roll. 00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.399 I I got my shots, uh, the insert and the cover, and I just, Mr. 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:25.440 Cohen, would you be inclined to just could we like charge out on Prince Arthur Street? 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.879 And I just want to shoot 36 in a row of you moving. 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:29.919 Let's do it. 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:32.320 He just gets up with a big grin on his face. 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:38.320 I put some of them in the book, and he just charges out smiling, and 36 shots, 36 seconds, done. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:47.120 And we had I had my Leonard Cohen moment, and uh so and I took the uh luxury of or liberty of calling him Lynn. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:14:11.840 Uh when I tell that story, but he he was a gentleman, he really, really nice, covered, paid the drinks, of course, and uh and I I mean that's that experience was kind of legend, and uh I live I it got me uh I guess motivated to to pursue photography uh as a photojournalist uh in a deeper way because and did a deep dive into his music and his books and poetry and stuff. 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:13.759 So and it pays off with Leonard Cohen. 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.720 I I feel like if you can stick it through that first, you know, the first time you're like, what is going on here? 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.799 And then well the with great music, right? 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:25.039 It's the the best music for me is stuff that I initially reject and then come back to. 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:29.919 And I feel like Leonard Cohen has that depth where and also that you have to earn it. 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.080 Yeah, admittedly, I I would say the same. 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:40.159 I didn't know enough about him, and having that first encounter with you know, genuine encounter, like, oh no, I have to know this man. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.120 I have to do a deeper dive and know his story. 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:47.120 That's true of a lot of my favorite Canadian musicians, by the way. 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.639 I feel like obviously Neil Young, I did not the first time I was like, What is this? 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:52.720 Joni Mitchell's the exception, yeah. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.960 But yeah, uh and guided by voices would be uh immediate rejection and then come back. 00:14:59.120 --> 00:14:59.519 Interesting. 00:14:59.919 --> 00:15:04.480 What is the what is the status of the band in either Canadian or the band? 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.600 Uh yeah, because they're all Canadian, except for uh Leon Hellman. 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:08.879 That's right, the drummer. 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.360 Um yeah, they're pretty archetypal. 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:19.919 Uh I mean, uh Robbie Robinson, he came to my neighborhood actually, one of the schools, and uh he did a talk just I guess a year or two before he passed away. 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:21.039 He had just done his autobiography. 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:22.399 Oh, that ceremony book, yeah. 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.679 Yeah, so you paid and it they're all signed by him. 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:30.799 Uh you couldn't go see him obviously after his talk and everything, but it was he was great. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:34.799 He was very uh relaxed, very candid, uh very forthcoming. 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:42.720 Um, and uh I I so that was kind of nice to see him in person and uh because I'd never seen the band uh live myself. 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:55.120 But even though you were covering you were shooting from 80, you didn't get to see any of the yeah, I guess in the 80s and 90s I was kind of leaning more, even though I know Lanwa and him worked together as well, and he did some great uh collaborations with Aboriginal singers. 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:57.600 I don't know if you followed those two albums, those were phenomenal. 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:04.320 So I was a huge fan, but I I never got the opportunity to see him live as a solo artist, and the band, yeah, I missed that, you know. 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.120 Well, yeah, that's what YouTube is for. 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:08.639 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:09.600 I guess so. 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:10.480 Sorry. 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:13.840 So you you're starting, you get these great punk bands. 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:23.120 I mean, I assume because we were talking briefly before that you did seem to have an interest in punk a little bit, and that's kind of a natural uh punk and Leonard Cohen, who's like somehow the punk of all f songwriters. 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:23.519 Yeah. 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:28.320 Uh and then we have kind of a multilingual uh entry. 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:35.120 And speaking of punk, we're of course blocking off the window because uh people are destroying the streets out front. 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:42.639 Um and then we have this eventual buildup to this great political moments in music, right? 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:44.559 What's the first of this of the series? 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:50.879 You mentioned three three major uh political activists, activist moments you were involved in as a photographer. 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.279 Yeah, I well

that seeing um human rights now. 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:56.639 Uh human rights now, yeah. 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:03.519 Yeah, when I saw Peter Gabriel sing Biko, I was like, you know, to borrow the Jewish expression, verklempt, you know, it was like wow. 00:17:03.679 --> 00:17:03.840 Yeah. 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:09.519 And uh he was also singing with Yasun Nodur, the African uh, you know, uh performer as well. 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:12.720 And uh he put his fist up in the air, and I just caught that moment. 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.279 It's that's why I choose that photo for the cover. 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:15.680 Yeah. 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:30.240 And uh it it it it wasn't lost, you know, on and he's wearing some traditional dress, some call it maybe cultural appropriation, but you know, he was one of these first guys to really push world music and highlight a lot of uh musicians that otherwise would go unnoticed. 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:30.799 Right. 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:35.119 You know, real world I think it was real world records was his uh label. 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:48.960 Um and uh then I I think I would say um Tracy Chapman, when she did Fast Car, and this is kind of the beginning of her career, she had like a five-minute standing ovation. 00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:51.279 And she just couldn't play guitar. 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.200 She was really moved by the the public response. 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.119 Yeah, it's hard not to react to her songs, right? 00:17:59.359 --> 00:17:59.920 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:01.039 Very, very powerful. 00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:03.599 It's so powerful that I understand why she wouldn't perform. 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:14.640 Because there's a stuck when you watch these these performances, that's another YouTube obsession, the deep dives on on things people like Tracy Chapman, and you understand it maybe is too intense to keep performing live. 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:28.960 She even came out recently for when it was re-released and performed with the I think Nashville songwriter who got up and re-released her song and the crowd went crazy, and you're like, uh wow, this is so positive, it's almost overwhelming. 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.720 Paying it forward and yeah, the next generation. 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:37.440 And then third, um we were talking about Billy Bragg earlier. 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:42.480 Uh when I saw him uh at uh McGill University with Michelle Shocht. 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:47.839 Uh I mean he was I didn't really have knowledge of his music either prior. 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:54.960 I I knew some some of his tunes, but he was very, very funny and a great storyteller between his songs. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:03.039 So he he was uh and I I I I was mentioning earlier also that I I saw him two months ago uh in Montreal, and he has not changed. 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:08.880 He's on the same course, the same path, very committed to his his uh politics and his views. 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:17.200 Now we go to the the dark end of because I'm always wallowing in darkness and apathy, not uh, and just like where how can I get negative on this? 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:39.119 But it feels like with this music track and with like this uh Montreal Mirror and and the way they were covering Things That Matter, I feel like progress affected people north of the border more than south of the border, and to the point where you get this current movement where you have the leader of the Middle Nations as your prime minister speaking up in times of conflict. 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:55.920 Um do you feel like do you feel like there's a line there of celebrating culture, celebrating multinationalism, uh being kind of bold-faced to it, and then and then having this moment where now you you have the prime minister who's speaking up on behalf of Middle Nations? 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:15.119 If Kearney's done anything in Canada now, and I know many Canadians agree to this, the whole elbows up and all the tariffs, and you know, we're not gonna be the 51st state, I would say he he has unified a lot of the provinces because internally in Canada there's you know issues of of trade and stuff like that. 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:24.559 And what it's done, it's it's kind of created solidarity in all the provinces, and the country really feels strongly that you know we should be able to stand up for our own. 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:29.519 We should be able to expand our our our market and our trade relations and so forth. 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:34.640 So he has really taken on a positive um uh status. 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:36.640 I I you know, I don't want to generalize. 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:39.599 There's always going to be the naysayers, but he's got some problems. 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.279 Some people talk about some of his attitudes towards fossil fuels not being ideal, right? 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:45.680 Yeah, putting pipelines in, like, oh, what's this? 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:47.359 He uh he was supposed to be an environmentalist. 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:47.759 Right. 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:50.240 So you there always will be a kickback for sure. 00:20:50.319 --> 00:21:02.240 And uh but I can't I don't know uh politically who would have been like Polyev, his rival, uh, would have not been competent enough to deal with uh the issues of tariffs and Trumps, in my opinion. 00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:02.960 Right, right, right. 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:42.640 But uh you know, he was governor of Bank of Canada, governor of the Bank of England, Kearney, so yeah, he's no newbie, he understands things, comes from very humble beginnings in uh northern Alberta and it it's been quite almost almost shocking from abroad to see somebody who has the profile of a classic technocrat uh be the most articulate and brave sort of voice in amongst the Western leaders in terms of you know explaining our current situation or the world's new order as it is.

00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:44.079 You heard him speak at Davos. 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:45.519 Oh yes, absolutely. 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.240 I have like my hair went up, and like wow. 00:21:50.559 --> 00:21:53.279 Yeah, I mean it was apparently he wrote it himself. 00:21:53.519 --> 00:22:02.960 He did, uh I was told, but it was very brief, concise, and to the point, and it was a Perfect perfectly understandable speech. 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:23.519 And he was just kind of you know that's also another thing, you know, y do you uh do you necessarily expect you know a quote unquote technocrat to kind of deliver a speech like this in such a plain, understandable way, mm-hmm using kind of always always the right metaphors and references that kind of everybody can get without you know dumbing it down at all. 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.640 It was a incredible thing to watch from from afar. 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:51.759 Yeah, and he does possess these qualities uh in a like a a technocrat, banker slash empath, you know, who says that he's interested in in in environmental issues and so forth, his wife equally, and and that he can deliver these concise messages in a clear fashion, you know, not uh cafe fe or you know uh you know uh word stumblings and stuff like that. 00:22:51.920 --> 00:23:12.559 He's and and it doesn't a level of humility, like you know, Canadian humbleness uh which uh ever every politician has to wear a certain costume and and you know there's methods of your delivery, but the salient points, like you're saying, uh I think that is given uh a level of hope in Canada and hopefully further. 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:13.119 Yeah. 00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.039 Uh so we were inspired. 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:22.000 Yeah, I mean his directness is something we've very much not seen with our Western leaders over the past decades. 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:23.839 So it's like a really fresh breath. 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:24.160 Yeah. 00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:27.279 I mean we can read Breath of Fresh Air, sorry. 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.680 Oh, you did stereo, perfect. 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:33.039 It's it's been like an incredible thing. 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:47.039 We've had a lot of long hours this summer together in the same room trying to write this paper and uh we now speak and well I would like to take this opportunity to thank you guys for your for the grapevine and your commitment to it. 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:54.559 It's it's a great I have the two copies since I've been here uh beside my bedside and uh enjoying the articles and you do good work. 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:54.880 Oh, thank you. 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:56.559 You guys are good writers. 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:57.440 Thank you very much. 00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:58.319 And Larry too. 00:23:58.400 --> 00:23:59.839 What a fabulous thanks to him. 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:01.039 I'm here today. 00:24:01.119 --> 00:24:06.000 But uh uh We stumbled on to having a journalism professor come and write with us. 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.039 Oh, you're me you're making records, great. 00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:10.240 What did you do before you made records? 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:11.440 Journalism professor. 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:13.119 Hey, we have coffee here. 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:14.799 Uh maybe you should stay here. 00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:21.920 Um talk about Mark Carney and his plain speech approach and technocrat. 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:33.599 I think this is uh reminds me of one of the great things I love about uh Canada and uh the upper Midwest, maybe, is that uh you're in a place where the environment will kill you if you're not if you mess around, right? 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:39.279 Uh you stop posing as much as is noted in the Martin Scarcese documentary uh about Bob Dylan. 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:46.079 You know, you can't really be a rebel in in northern Minnesota because if if you change your clothes too much, you're gonna die from the cold, right? 00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.759 So the pose goes away and the and the flannel comes on. 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:55.599 Um I was looking at your photos a great deal and I and I noticed not a lot of gimmicks in those photos either, right? 00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:57.200 It's all about just raw analog. 00:24:57.440 --> 00:24:59.039 It's what I saw is what you got. 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:00.960 You know, I there's not a lot of doctoring. 00:25:01.039 --> 00:25:08.720 I hired an intern to scan them because they were from my archive, uh, their negs and some um slides, the E6 we called it back in the day. 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:12.720 So she did some a bit of color correction and clean up the dust and whatever. 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:14.319 But yeah, I wanted them to be raw. 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.119 I wanted to really reflect that era, that analog era. 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:26.880 And uh I mean, I they didn't have a dark room at the Montreal Mirror at the day, so I was an asset to them because I had my own dark room and I could process my own film. 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:34.160 You had to bring your your contact sheet, you would sit there with the editor, and he would add a wax crayon, and he would circle, yeah. 00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:38.960 I'd love this one of Cohen, or I love that one of uh you know Haro's flowers or whoever it was. 00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:41.920 And you have to go back to your dark room, you have to print it out. 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:43.759 So the immediacy wasn't there. 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.319 You really there was a process that was different. 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.279 It took more time. 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:50.960 There were more discourse, more uh interactions together. 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.319 Uh wasn't online either. 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.759 So it really is just a it was another time, another era. 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:15.359 And a friend of mine's a producer at uh at uh the CBC, uh your equivalent of NPR um in the States, and she she

bought my Leonard Cohen photos, the 36 shots of him on the street, because they had an exhibition shortly after he passed at the Musée d'Arcontemporain, the our contemporary museum in Montreal. 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:18.720 And I bumped into it at her party and I said, uh Carrie, what are you working on? 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:25.920 Her name's Carrie Haber, and she said, Oh, I'm we're doing a walking tour of Leonard Cohen's um short Montreal and Long Montreal. 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:27.519 I'm like, Oh wow, that's really strange. 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:29.440 I just found these photos in my archive. 00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:33.920 No one's seen them, and they're of him walking on Prince Arthur Street, and she says, Scan them for me tomorrow. 00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:34.559 Send them. 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:44.160 So they had them edited by this woman, Kathleen Weldon, who worked at the film board, National Film Board of Canada, where I collaborate on other documentary and animation works. 00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:59.039 And this beautiful intro is you download the app, and it's just Leonard, you know, after the Red Needles walking around, and uh they had the mountain with the angel and the cross uh Mount Royal is a iconic uh sort of uh geography in in Montreal. 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.599 And uh I mean I was really touched and they paid for them. 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:05.599 I probably made more money selling those photos than I did my whole time working at the mirror. 00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:06.319 Oh, right. 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:09.119 And uh, but just she said, when are you gonna do a book? 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:10.240 You know, when are you gonna do this? 00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:14.319 And uh so she gave me the right prompt to do it. 00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.640 And I have to say, I've been working with Amnesty International. 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:23.519 I'm gonna be in Berlin in March for their big photo um uh uh festival that they have in Berlin. 00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:28.319 And Amnesty have jumped on board and they said, We really want this because of the rise of the right. 00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:28.960 Yeah. 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:33.440 Another woman I worked with, uh, I did a documentary on the Cold War in Berlin. 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:34.880 She said, You gotta do this. 00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:39.680 We're we're troubled by what's going on in Germany, especially with their dark past and their history. 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.559 Not that my book is gonna make any massive difference or anything, but it's an effort, you know. 00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:47.119 And I said, Um I will humbly abide, please. 00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:48.799 You know, let's do it, let's work on that. 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:50.559 So that's a bit of the ethos. 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:56.000 I I if I go back to those Montreal Mir days, that was something we really were in it together. 00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:02.319 We felt that it was really important to share our skill sets, and that's that's why I see here at Grapevine. 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.319 I see you guys are really collectively together. 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:06.640 Your discussions in the kitchen were phenomenal. 00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:12.799 You know, even it was about Eddie and uh and other, but uh you know this is important work you're doing. 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:14.960 We we have to continue to do this work. 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:17.200 Yeah, that's why, yeah, that's what I fascinated by the book. 00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:18.559 So uh and sorry, go ahead. 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:23.839 Yeah, yeah, like I I if you don't mind, I almost wanted to talk about the different project of yours. 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:24.400 Oh, yeah. 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:52.319 And it kinda easy to pivot from Mark Carney's uh version of of the world uh and his Tao speech, and perhaps that project, because uh you know, in 2026 the he is making uh an effort of trying to build a relationship with what he calls the middle powers, but also with the you like with Europe. 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:59.119 And we talked about it yesterday that we were talking about like there that there's this connection between Iceland and Canada. 00:28:59.279 --> 00:28:59.920 Yeah. 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:10.400 Which well, I mean, you can put the the whole thing that uh Icelanders well, old Norse people found found quote unquote North America a thousand years ago. 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:13.599 That's kind of in there, but it's just backstory and nothing came of it. 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:23.119 But uh there's a migratory period uh from Iceland to Canada in the eighteen seventies onwards and into the twentieth century. 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:24.000 Gimli, yeah. 00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:26.799 Gimli, yeah, Gimli and and the area around Winnipeg. 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:29.200 And the fantastic poet Stefan Stefansen. 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:29.759 Oh yes. 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:32.319 Which uh you th you celebrate as Canadian too. 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:33.759 Stefan Stefanson. 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:34.559 Absolutely, yeah. 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:39.599 Which is which he's so he's one of the few writers who is celebrated in both countries after life. 00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.960 Yeah, he he was uh he hung out with my great grandfather. 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:43.759 No kidding. 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:44.480 That's great. 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.160 Wow, pump pulse too. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:46.720 Never mind. 00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:47.920 And he's a fantastic poet. 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:48.640 I mean he really is. 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:49.839 Oh great and yeah. 00:29:50.400 --> 00:30:07.200 But there is but you know, talking about connections, I mean, there is uh historically, if we talk about Iceland, there is this, you know, old connection with with Greenland and then with North America, but predominantly there is this connection with the Hebrides, Norway, um, Ireland. 00:30:07.440 -->

00:30:07.839 Yeah. 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:19.200 And kind of this at some point it was described to me that you kinda have to think about Iceland, the Faroe Islands, Norway, the Hebrides, and Ireland as like a on like a highway, like a sea highway. 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.480 It was like there was so much traffic back and forth. 00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:30.799 And we also kind of talked about we I was mentioning my love of historical fiction sometimes to kind of get you into the place. 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.640 But you have this great project from is it last year or it was published last year, right? 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:38.400 Uh this was published last year, yeah. 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:42.880 And Indigo Ioana Saga. 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.880 So this is based on an archaeological find. 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:47.359 That's right. 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:55.759 I think in 1938 during a road construction in the East, if I remember correctly. 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:57.359 Yeah, that's right. 00:30:57.839 --> 00:31:00.960 And you just conjure up your her whole life story. 00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:01.920 Yeah, I know. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:11.519 I have an American friend, she just published a book and we support each other's efforts, and she says, You created that from from that archaeological find you saw at the museum in Iceland. 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:13.920 I said, Yeah, it was the National Museum of Iceland. 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:32.400 And I had done my first residency here in 2017 at the SIM uh facility, and I just remember walking in there and seeing her bones uh she was kind of buried on her side, and all the jewelry, uh the oval brooches, and so forth. 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.240 And I thought, Well, who is this woman? 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:35.279 What is her story? 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:54.720 And I started reading some of the plaques and talking about the Hiberno Norse, which is my ancestry, and how, you know, when the Vikings were fleeing uh the feuding kings in Norway, they were stopping off to refuel and restock their ships, but also taking wet women as wives or more probably slaves. 00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:03.680 And uh so Ireland, Scotland, uh th to Orkney, Shetlands, and all, like you said, uh that transatlantic migration across. 00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:05.519 And I was just fascinated by these stories. 00:32:05.599 --> 00:32:07.920 My grandfather used to talk about that quite a bit. 00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:14.000 And um uh our our name, McLeod, kind of plays into my grandfather said you it's Norse. 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.119 There m MacLeod's not a it's a Celtic name, you know, it's been Gaelicized, Anglicized. 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:33.759 And uh we had this exhibition at the McCord Museum in in Montreal, and uh it was called Full Circle First Contact, and it was about the discovery of uh from Greenland to to uh uh Newfoundland, which is rooted in the Vinland saga. 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:35.519 And I love that saga as

a young man. 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:37.039 I used to read it all the time. 00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:42.079 And uh I was standing there talking to an Icelander actually, he was working at Ubisoft in Montreal. 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:46.480 He's about my hike, tattoos, blonde hair, blue eyes, you know, the you get the picture. 00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:55.200 And uh the ambassador to Iceland walks over and he said he starts speaking to him in Icelandic, and then he looks over at me and starts speaking Icelandic to me. 00:32:55.279 --> 00:32:57.680 And I go, No, no, I'm Canadian, sorry, I don't speak Icelandic. 00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.039 And he says, Ah, what is your name? 00:32:59.119 --> 00:32:59.680 I say, Scott. 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:03.680 No, no, no, your surname, and I go, Mukhlad, ah, Jotr, you're one of us. 00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:04.400 Ha ha ha ha. 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:06.559 And then he walks away in like etymology. 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.799 Son of the ugly wolf from the Orknean sagas, you know, like oh my goodness. 00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:15.680 So I guess it was a bit of a joke name that you would give the ugly son, uh, Jotur. 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:17.920 But I'm probably not pronouncing it properly. 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.640 Pretty complex reference to leave you with without explanation. 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:21.680 Wander off. 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:22.400 Yeah. 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:27.519 And the and the Ubisoft guy with our beards in her hand, going, What was that? 00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:29.200 You know, but it was fun. 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:30.880 So it's a deep dive. 00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.519 I just have, you know, there's these crazy synchronicities. 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:42.160 So I take the residency, I see this woman's character, and for it it took I decided to do something called the Norse Women's Saga series. 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:47.039 So I highlighted women in the Norse sagas, collaborated with the National Film Board of Canada. 00:33:47.200 --> 00:34:02.400 It's a three-part series, starting the leaving of Norway, coming to Iceland, and she's one of the principal characters, um, historic fiction, as you said, but rooted in the sagas, and then Eric the Red, Ice uh Greenlander Saga, and then the Vinland saga. 00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:18.480 So I did what you described, the trans migration of North Atlantic and uh to Canada, and how uh a lot of my work with the film board is is uh licensed and distributed through the school system, library system in Canada. 00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:22.400 And it's to give these stories to to young people, older people as well. 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:29.119 But uh the importance is is uh conveying you know what how these people lived, how they migrated, why did they migrate? 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:33.039 So those questions were implanted by my grandfather Bert McLeod. 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:35.199 It was like, where are we from? 00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:36.480 Why did we leave? 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:40.000 What happened when you came to whatever place you migrated to? 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:47.599 And that was became sort of the mission statement for doing these three episodes on Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland. 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:49.280 And it was an incredible journey. 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:56.079 It's a 10-year journey, and uh it was wonderful to work with Turfy Tulinus, he's a professor at the University of Iceland. 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:11.039 So I've shown all three films now there, and uh, I've donated the books to your central library, to uh the university library, and uh also uh naturally the museum given that's where the uh artifacts were found uh or placed now. 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:27.840 No, I I find this fascinating, but it's also like uh yeah, I I I guess if if there's been a decent enough uh relationship, slavery or sight, I guess it's uh I guess now is a good good time to revisit that. 00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:28.159 Yeah. 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:32.320 To remember that we've all had a relationship across the Atlantic. 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:35.519 Well and that we should perhaps do more of it. 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:38.239 Maybe Carney's bringing us back in a sense. 00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:40.800 We're going the other direction now and exactly. 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.480 I mean, the way things are going, we might need uh a sailboat to get across. 00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:52.480 But yes, yeah, there's there's a lot I love in what you were saying, but one thing about thinking about like where we come from. 00:35:52.639 --> 00:36:12.079 Um you and I were talking before while we were grabbing coffee about uh in Montreal specifically, discovering uh burial sites, mass burial sites of Irish immigrants from from well, uh depending on your politics, uh some of us don't feel we don't like the phrasing potato famine, right? 00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:17.199 But the inflicted famine on the Irish people um and the resulting c catastrophe. 00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:35.760 Um and when you find these massive mass graves of uh of immigrants, right, yeah, uh it reminds you uh of the story of immigration in places like Canada, and um hopefully we can learn from that and treat the new waves of immigrants uh with that respect, right? 00:36:35.840 --> 00:36:44.559 So uh we would hope that the Irish community of which you and I are a part of um uh could see uh uh the empathy towards new waves. 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:45.039 Absolutely. 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:46.000 And I feel like yeah. 00:36:46.400 --> 00:36:46.960 That's well said. 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:47.679 You guys are great. 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:49.599 I love I love speaking to journalists. 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:56.000 You you have a wonderful way of I'm a bit a racontaire storyteller, and you your concise sort of uh reflections. 00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:56.960 I appreciate both of you. 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.320 That's a nice way of saying a nasty, nasty

Midwestern, but yes. 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:01.039 Yeah. 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.360 That was some scathing criticism on the uh premiership of Lord Russell. 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.119 So never mind, that was deep time. 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:07.920 No, no, no. 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:09.920 I I I I hold grudges. 00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:13.760 Well, you and a whole Irish, you have to. 00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:15.280 Yeah, it's the whole thing we do, right? 00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:16.159 Irish Alzheimer's. 00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:17.199 Irish Godish, yeah. 00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:30.320 Yeah, I I heard somebody kind of describe how you know this is a discussion ten years ago when uh when uh Vladimir Putin put up a statue of Stalin again. 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.440 Oh good, right? 00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:35.760 You know, and I think he was being interviewed by what's I'm just gonna say too soon. 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:36.239 Too soon. 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:36.960 Yeah, too soon. 00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:37.599 Yeah, too soon. 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:41.679 He was being interviewed by Oliver Stone, and Stone were asking him, like, basically that, isn't it? 00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:42.880 Bit too soon. 00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:43.360 Yeah. 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:53.199 Uh but then again, you know, uh if I were the Russians, my answers to this one would be, I mean, you know, the English still have statues of Cromwell. 00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:54.000 True. 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.840 Uh you know what the Irish think about that. 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:56.639 Yeah. 00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:58.239 Yeah, yeah. 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:03.679 I was uh one of the things uh I liked about Biden was when he took the Churchill bust out. 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:11.039 But uh I I I acknowledge Churchill was a great man in many regards, but his treatment towards Ireland was not one of his strong suits. 00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:11.519 Sure. 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:13.920 Uh he was no Oliver Cromwell in that sounds like that. 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:14.239 That's true. 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:16.960 He's better than yeah, there's some there's somehow people have been worse. 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:19.679 Um has anybody been worse than Cromwell? 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:20.960 Maybe Lord Russell. 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:22.159 Maybe. 00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:23.039 All right. 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:24.480 That went dark quick. 00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:25.199 Yeah, yeah. 00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:26.400 Just look it up on Wikipedia. 00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:30.320 That's it's uh it's a long it's a long list of bad things. 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.760 No, I mean um yeah, this is this fascinates me. 00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:36.800 I look really forward to seeing the the films you made. 00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:37.280 Sure. 00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:42.559 So we can go and get the settlement of Iceland indigo Yonah Saga at the library here. 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:43.280 The book, yeah. 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.400 And if you're in Canada, you can access it on can you access it? 00:38:46.960 --> 00:38:53.679 Yeah, the website is the Norse Women's Saga series, or my my website is MacLeodNumber9.com. 00:38:53.840 --> 00:39:06.639 And you go in the film section and you can see it because the Norse Women's Saga series, uh I have learning guides um that are kind of principled in the teaching methodology of the National Film Board of Canada. 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:13.039 They do these guides where you would ask questions before viewing the film, ask questions after viewing the film, and recommended projects. 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:21.280 And then there's a secondary guide that shows the whole process because I'm at a stage of my life I want to mentor, I want to keep our industries alive. 00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:22.960 So they're free for teachers. 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:40.800 They can just download the PDFs, and that um the production notes really explains the whole process of you know, from inception, uh pre-production development, and and to the delivery of the films, and um to encourage young people to tell stories and to learn from these as well. 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:50.239 So that's sort of again my ethos and in what I do is to uh pay it forward, give it back, yeah, and make it accessible, you know. 00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:54.000 Um that old saying, we if we don't learn from our history, we're doomed to repeat it. 00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:54.400 Yeah. 00:39:54.800 --> 00:40:00.480 We seem to keep repeating it, but um no, again, north of the border, it seems to be going pretty well. 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:05.119 Um Yeah. 00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:09.360 Uh uh one small note I want to make about this this sagas. 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:18.639 Um and what I have always loved about Icelandic sagas, probably what brought me to this country, was because I had studied Icelandic sagas at the University of Wisconsin, yeah. 00:40:18.880 --> 00:40:19.679 Uh Madison. 00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:26.960 And uh the prominence of women I know we talk about that the that they were slaves. 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:30.239 There was a slave culture, but obviously the the culture was mixed, right? 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:36.320 A lot of the literary culture, I know I know it's Norse, but there was a lot of Irish culture in the way they told their stories. 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:44.800 And the prominence of women characters and their importance in all the sagas, in many of the the great sagas, um should can't be overstated, I think. 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:51.440 It's it's it's a real I mean we c uh well the other last week I met four Malcorkas, right? 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:53.599 She's the major character in Lochstella saga. 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:55.039 Yes, and a slave. 00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:56.960 And and of course a slave, yeah. 00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:01.280 No, I mean uh women are really prominent characters in a lot of the sagas. 00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:03.119 In

Lochstella saga, in Yol Saga. 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:10.559 I mean, not for like you know, the the main female character in that book is not exactly a um a hero. 00:41:10.960 --> 00:41:12.400 Right, which is actually kind of cool too. 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:13.360 Very cool. 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:13.840 Yeah. 00:41:14.079 --> 00:41:18.800 Uh and it's it it's it's it's all over the it's all over the saga. 00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:32.159 Even even when you get the Grethr saga, which is kind of a retailing of retelling of Beowulf or different telling of Beowulf, you still have a more interesting woman characters there, you which is maybe the least representative, but it's still really really fascinating and progressive. 00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:36.400 I I have to mention uh archaeologist I worked with, uh Michelle Hare Smith. 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:44.159 She worked at the uh National Museum, and she had worked on the that exhibition was called Bundled Up in Blue, and it was from 2015 to 2017. 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:46.480 I just thankfully caught it at the end. 00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:48.000 But Michelle opened me up. 00:41:48.079 --> 00:42:06.880 I worked with textile artists, women artists here that had reproduced the the uh the costume, the jewelry, and so forth, because um uh I I use composite, so I use voice actresses here in Iceland and uh my friend Austis uh Sniff uh Sifgunner's daughter, she was one of the composites. 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:10.079 And uh there was one Burgess Julia, she was amazing. 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:25.280 She's from Kettlestadder, and I know I'm pronouncing that butchering the word, but she was from that town, and when she was being dressed in the costume uh that Marl Madder and uh uh Marianna Gluckelsberg had done, uh she said, Where was the woman's body found? 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:27.840 And I said, Kettlestadder, and she says, Well, that's where my family's from. 00:42:27.920 --> 00:42:30.800 And what was so weird is the costume fit her perfectly. 00:42:31.119 --> 00:42:50.079 It was just so I had constant synchronicities with women, and not only could we not have, you know, could Iceland not have existed without the women to produce enough people to make it a sustainable place, but for me, my whole experience in doing these projects, all the women, it was Tina Augustader who did score all the music for the films. 00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:54.320 Fantastic, originally from Vikjavik, and uh she lives in Stockholm now. 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:57.920 Uh studied jazz at Concordia and in Montreal. 00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:07.679 Um, and I found out I saw her at this where I met the the ambassador, she was singing in a choral group of women uh who are singing traditional uh Rimur singers. 00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:08.639 Yeah, right, yeah. 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:15.360 Yeah, so she was doing that, and it was beautiful, beautiful music, and was able to locate her and get her email address. 00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:17.599 And would you do the soundtrack for these films? 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:18.800 Yes, I'm in. 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:23.840 So not only women's contribution back in this period, but women's contribution now. 00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:30.480 And that's something that a best practice or a way of life here that really blew my mind in Iceland when I first came. 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:37.039 Um, Eliza Reed, Canadian, who uh I've met twice now, uh, her book Spracha, you know, the women who are changing Iceland. 00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:40.159 That was uh another wonderful uh sort of inspiration. 00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:43.440 Eliza Reed being the former former first lady of Iceland. 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:44.239 Yeah, exactly. 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.159 Yeah, and a former food editor for this magazine. 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:47.679 Yes, a former colleague here. 00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:48.559 Yeah, I didn't know that. 00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:50.880 She actually contributed to the best of Reykjavik uh food. 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:52.239 Oh, yeah, last year, yeah. 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:53.360 Okay, fantastic. 00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:55.280 And she still has her writer's residency, right? 00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.719 She runs a writer's residency program here in Reykjavik, yeah. 00:43:58.880 --> 00:43:59.599 Yeah, fabulous. 00:44:00.559 --> 00:44:01.280 So yeah. 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:03.599 Oh excellent. 00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:11.360 I'm like it's like a very like We're trying to focus on your being a cool rock photographer and then another cool thing. 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:13.119 And then we get you know we get both things. 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:13.920 It's it's great. 00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:26.079 So like uh and you know I love rock music and I love rock photography, but I always sagas come from very I'm very sagonyth. 00:44:26.559 --> 00:44:27.360 Thank you for bringing that up. 00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:32.400 That means a lot actually, because uh I have that uh that part of me as well that was very nerdy as a kid. 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:40.800 I used to uh read esterix obeliques, uh Lucky Luke, um Spirou Fantasio, all those Belgian uh how do we say that in English? 00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:42.400 Asterix and obeliques? 00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:42.880 Yeah, yeah. 00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:43.840 Lucky Luke, I guess. 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.280 That's right, Lucky Luke and uh Spirou and Fantasio. 00:44:47.840 --> 00:44:51.840 Those all those Belgian French uh I love that as a kid. 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:59.360 So yeah, I I grew up with all of these because they were all translated, and I'm not sure they were that big in the United States. 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:04.239 No, they didn't take off the United States, but uh my son and I are working on asterisk in Icelandic. 00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:04.880 Oh, are you? 00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:14.239 Um we all moved back last year, so trying to re-readjust to the Icelandic language, force a teenager to learn Icelandic. 00:45:14.480

--> 00:45:16.559 There's a bit tricky, but asterisk can help. 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:28.639 Well, one of my favorite trivias about uh asterisk and Oplex is and I only realized this very late, is that you know the whole thing that Julius Caesar's always referring to himself in the third person. 00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:30.159 Have you noticed this? 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:31.280 No, no, no. 00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:33.360 He always will refer to himself in the third person. 00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:41.199 I was like, okay, this is weird, and then that gets passed, and then I read the Calic Wars by Julius Caesar, which he writes and refers to himself in the third person. 00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:41.760 Okay. 00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:46.320 Very smart joke by the Belgian guys there. 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:46.960 Oh yeah. 00:45:47.199 --> 00:45:49.440 Not lost on the Emperor Motif, right? 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.559 I guess they all got classical education or something. 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:57.280 Yeah, anyway, that's uh Did you ever read uh Moebius uh the Inkle? 00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:58.400 Do you know that series at all? 00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:01.280 It was in heavy metal magazine when I was a teenager. 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:02.159 I used to read that one. 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.239 I found it here in one of the bookstores. 00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:05.679 I bought it for my son as well. 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:13.599 But the the caveat here, I might not know it might have an Icelandic like translation, and I wouldn't know what it is what Mobius would be there. 00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:14.079 Beautiful. 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.559 You can see if you've seen Blade Runner by Ridley Scott. 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:18.480 Wait, are you talking about the artist Mobius? 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:19.440 Yeah, Mobius, yeah. 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:20.000 Oh, okay. 00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:21.199 Do you know his yes? 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:21.920 I love Mobius. 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:23.119 Yeah, it's fabulous. 00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:27.360 Perhaps I know what you're talking about, but it had a very different lifeline translation. 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:29.920 The the lead character's name was John DeFoole. 00:46:30.400 --> 00:46:35.519 And he's a a cop who's trying to figure out I mean I can see Ridley Scott. 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:49.199 Mobius, so yeah, we're talking about the great graphic novelist Mobius, who does um even if you follow mass culture, he actually did re-invent rewritings of major like superhero things in in America. 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:52.079 Sometimes for some but is he based in France, maybe? 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:52.559 Yes. 00:46:52.880 --> 00:46:55.039 And uh in France he's like a rock star. 00:46:55.280 --> 00:46:55.599 Yeah, definitely. 00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:57.280 It's a comic book artist. 00:46:57.519 --> 00:47:10.400 Like I I can think of no equivalent to the maybe Alex Ross, the the guy who does uh who did um Kingdom Come uh in US comics, but that's very hard, very obscure. 00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:12.079 Whereas Mobius is like a big deal. 00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:12.480 Yes. 00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:13.199 Wow, okay. 00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:13.519 Yeah. 00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.679 Oh, we share a lot of stuff in common, lads. 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:16.239 Yeah. 00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:32.000 Yeah, I th this opens uh this this is back to the thing you mentioned earlier, which is that uh Canada through the the the French connection have a stronger cultural tie with mainland Europe than North America perhaps sometimes does when it comes to popular culture. 00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:35.440 Yeah, yeah, and a lot of uh French immigration too to Montreal. 00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:41.199 You can walk in the plateau area when you'll hear like French accent from Paris or one from the south, or you know. 00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:49.440 So there's a yeah, it it's it's again a fusion place, uh not only in in food uh but in other as well. 00:47:49.599 --> 00:47:53.039 Uh and it's it's an amazing thing uh to have grown up. 00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:02.239 My parents gave me uh the great privilege of being in a multicultural society, learning a second language in a time where Anglos didn't go into the French school system in the 70s. 00:48:02.559 --> 00:48:11.519 So uh you know I kind of remember my father trying to convince the directres was uh she was a nun at this elementary school when we first moved to Montreal. 00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:13.519 And uh he says, But if Mr. 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.760 McLeod, you can send your kids to English school, no problem. 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:20.559 He says, Yeah, but if they don't have the language, they don't have the polter, uh they don't have the culture. 00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:22.800 The the language is the portal to the culture. 00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:25.920 And she he just she was stopped, you know. 00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:29.920 She obviously had been indoctrinated in a certain way that French and English must be separate. 00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:44.880 But I was part of that wave of bilingual Canadians in in Quebec and Montreal that that we flourished as a result, you know, having more than one language like you have here in Iceland, you all know English, it's amazing, and uh it was just such a gift. 00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:55.760 And uh having a knowledge of a multicultural society when I traveled as a young man, I had you know, I knew what uh certain foods were in Spain and Italy, and I can order them. 00:48:55.840 --> 00:49:01.840 I remembered some of the Italian words, and it just felt like it was a great bridge and connection to the others. 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:11.280 And uh I think there's this value in being in a multicultural society like Canada or any of the big American cities or European cities, like we're richer for it. 00:49:11.440 --> 00:49:11.599 Yeah. 00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:11.920 Yeah. 00:49:12.079 --> 00:49:23.599 Instead of this

intolerance and this idea we're gonna make something great again by eliminating that diversity or that fusion, uh I find that uh that that's not the way forward at all. 00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:24.159 No. 00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.239 No, it's uh it's cruel and dumb, is what I think about it, but that's just me. 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:29.760 Politics of negation. 00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:38.719 So I'm sorry, I just want to recap because uh because what I'm going through is uh re-readjusting to a bilingual life. 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:42.800 Um what age were you when you started the French school in Month? 00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:45.679 Um we moved to Montreal, I was five. 00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:46.159 Okay. 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:46.480 Yeah. 00:49:46.559 --> 00:49:53.119 So I started uh I actually I went to a Jewish it was a Protestant school board, but predominantly a Jewish neighborhood. 00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:54.960 And uh it was bilingual. 00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:07.119 So you had Sephardic, you know, North North African, you know, Moroccan, Algerian, and then Quebec and uh Eastern European Jewish families, and we were of that mentality. 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:13.119 Uh, I was we were the one token, you know, the Scottish guys with the uh the blue Christmas tree on the block. 00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:16.320 And um, but it Wait, blue Christmas tree. 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:22.559 Yeah, my dad was fixated on having a green Christmas tree with blue light, so it glowed blue in the front room. 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:28.960 So we were like the the token Scottish Irish people with the uh the one Christmas tree on the block. 00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:32.159 But it you know, again, a testament to my father. 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:34.719 Yeah, I said, Dad, I'm not gonna have a bar mitzvah. 00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:36.079 I can't do this, I can't do that. 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:36.800 What's this? 00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:40.159 And he says, uh I said, I want to go to their temple. 00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:43.039 I want to go, I want to, but I don't have a yamaka and stuff like that. 00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:45.280 So he knocked on my best friend's door and said, Mr. 00:50:45.440 --> 00:50:49.920 Saffron, would you allow my son to go to, I think it was Sukat, one of the holidays. 00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:51.039 And he said, Mr. 00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:52.320 McLeod, but you're not Jewish. 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.559 Why we said, I want my son to be open. 00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:11.280 So off I went to synagogue that night, and you know, I never converted or anything, but it was the fact that my dad was actually open to letting me explore something and uh opening up a discourse and a dialogue, again, having tolerance, you know, with this is where we should be going uh as a society. 00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:13.840 And again, the gratitude for moving. 00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:18.880 My mom was from Western Canada, you know, the Texas of uh Canada, Alberta. 00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:21.599 My dad was from Cape Breton, the very Scottish. 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:26.239 And then, you know, he got his uh job as a pilot, test pilot there. 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:38.320 And uh again, uh the the gifts uh that it it bestowed on my sister and I um gave us a great wealth in our lived experience, you know, in our work and travel. 00:51:38.639 --> 00:51:45.760 Yeah, and you seem to be, as you said, paying it forward with actually showing people, giving people some tools to express themselves and hopefully affect change. 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:48.079 Uh and uh on on you go from here. 00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:50.480 Uh you say from here you go on to Germany? 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:54.719 I'll go back to Canada and back to Montreal and then to Germany in March, yeah. 00:51:54.880 --> 00:51:56.559 Okay when the festival uh passes. 00:51:56.639 --> 00:51:59.679 So well, hopefully you can stop by here again and we can do this again. 00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:01.280 I would love that. 00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:13.599 Because uh I I I misprepared and was only obsessed with these rock these rock photos, and uh it turns out we have other interests uh uh uh that we share. 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:21.119 And also, as we were talking before, we're also I was a teacher, and you also do uh artists in residency programs, which would be fantastic. 00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:24.960 In fact, we should uh hopefully you can actually come by my kids' schools maybe. 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:29.039 Oh, but my youngest is so fascinating with the physical art. 00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:29.280 Okay. 00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:35.519 Uh um, as you were mentioning, the idea of showing kids these days how to use carbon paper, it blows their minds. 00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:36.639 Make a zine. 00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:36.800 Yeah. 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:43.119 We do a lot of zine making at home because obviously I run a magazine and she wants to do her own magazine, right? 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.760 So you just staple some A4 papers together. 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:53.440 But uh but anyway, the the physical makeup making physical art really um astounds people who are stuck with this digital world. 00:52:53.840 --> 00:53:00.320 Well, I'm gonna give you a little gift then, knowing your passion for this, for you can share with your your kids. 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:08.000 I have an extra one, you don't have one there, but let me uh let me give you the uh the indigo Iona saga and the settlement of Iceland. 00:53:08.239 --> 00:53:09.119 So that's for you and your family. 00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:10.320 Oh, thank you so much. 00:53:11.119 --> 00:53:20.239 Um and on that note, we should uh conclude our drop-in, which was a genuine drop-in, and also uh uh uh another Canadian drop-in. 00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:29.599 So our Western Icelanders uh well you're uh despite the fact that you are made up of the people who settled Iceland, you are technically uh Icelandic heritage, right? 00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:34.559 You're I I did ask, I said, are you comfortable with this Canadian of you know Hiberninos background? 00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:36.000 Of course, we traded with you. 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:40.000 Yeah. 00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:41.039 For myself. 00:53:41.360 --> 00:53:43.360 I mean, thank you so much for dropping in. 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:44.320 Oh, thank you guys. 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:45.440 I really enjoyed this today. 00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:46.800 This is you made my day. 00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:49.199 Oh lovely, and some nice Icelandic coffee. 00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:50.000 That was great. 00:53:50.239 --> 00:53:51.519 Yeah, sorry about the coffee. 00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.000 Uh well, until next time. 00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:54.559 Bye-bye. 00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:55.679 All right, see you later. 00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:56.639 Thanks very much.