บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode 14: How to get information out of your clients for content

the meeting, how to get the most out of your copywriting meeting. Then what we do is we'll book the 30 minute call. It's usually one-on-one with ⁓ the website owner, the end client, and the copywriter that they're going to be working with. Sometimes agency owners join them as well, but most of the time it is just the end client. We always record. And then we can transcribe so that we're fully focused on what the client is saying and kind of not getting caught up in the nitty gritty details of, no, I need to take a thousand more notes. And yeah, and then after that, we go ahead and kind of send them an email summarizing what happened, what's going to happen next, all of that good stuff. And then we get started on the project. So. Let's cover how to prepare correctly for a kickoff call that is solely focused on copywriting. So you fail to prepare and you prepare to fail guys. This is setting the scene for a good website copywriting project. What are your top tips for, know, kind of how do you prepare and how do you prepare your clients for the kickoff call? Ciara (04:13) Yeah. So to fully get prepped, the first thing that I do is just make sure I have a really, really good understanding of the client I'm going to be talking to. So I need to understand, you know, where they're at now. So looking at their website and a kind of... do a quick sort of audit and see what their website is looking at like at the moment. ⁓ And also make sure I check all the documents that they send over. A lot of our agency clients are fantastic and will send over a ton of background info and, you know, any sort of discovery notes that, you know, they have from their own chats with the client, a brief for the project as well as to, you know, this is what we need for this website project. So I'll just make sure I have a really, really good and full understanding before the call because that will really kind of ⁓ guide my questions for the client and make sure that I'm asking the right questions and that I have that context so it's not me kind of starting from scratch really. kind of already have a good bit of information about the client so that I can make sure that I'm strategic in my questioning and not asking things that I already kind of know. Abby Wood (05:28) Absolutely. We've got minimal time with the client. So, you know, we need to make the most out of it. So your questions have to be on point. You have to be fully up to date and up to date. Yeah, up to date with where they are and where they want to go. Wonderful. Riley, how can you make the client turn up with their A game? Look at me using an American term. Turn up with their A game. Riley (05:50) with their A game. Turn up with their A game. Yeah, I would first make sure the client knows where they're going and at what time they're meant to be there at because time zones exist and sometimes even though Google will like change the time on their calendar, you might have said something like two weeks before this meeting is meant to go ahead that I'll see you at 2pm. But 2pm your time might not be. 2 p.m. your clients time. So make sure that they have the right time in their local time zone and make sure that they have the right link to the meeting. also you can message them some like what to expect during the call. We have a wonderful how to prepare for your kickoff call. document that we send to clients so that they can have a little read over and they will know what to expect when they come on the call and they're not just being thrown into it without any knowledge of what's going to happen. Yeah, they're not being interrogated. It's a friendly chat to get to know their business and what they want. it also, I think, helps them. Abby Wood (06:56) They're not being interrogated exactly. Riley (07:07) kind of feel more relaxed on the call because they already know what's going to happen, especially if it's a call with someone who isn't used to these type of calls. Like if you have, say, ⁓ an owner of a construction company or ⁓ somebody who is a vet, like they're not going to be going on website ⁓ design calls or website copy calls to like every couple of days like we are. So they're not going to know what to expect. ⁓ So setting them up and showing them what to expect on the call I think helps a lot. Abby Wood (07:39) Exactly. Absolutely, absolutely. ⁓ And yeah, it's a good reminder there to, know, although, you know, we and our listeners do this day in, day out for a lot of kind of clients, you know, this is completely new territory for them. you know, say if they're not particularly tech savvy, you know, God, I'm going to be on zoom and they're to be recording me and you know, I'm going to be asked a thousand one questions about my mission and my values and all this kind of stuff. That's overwhelming. So just try to, know, kind of get rid of the whelm. We want to get rid of that whelm before we get on the call. So they show up and then they're, you know, they're speaking the language that they usually speak and how they talk to their end clients. And then you get better results as a result of that because they're not, you know, putting on airs and graces or trying to be something that they're not. So that's a really good point. ⁓ And yeah, a hundred percent, they're sending over some example questions that they're gonna be asked. It really helps them to think about this kind of stuff. A lot of people don't tend to think about where do you want your business to be in five years? Kind of it's like, I just need a new website, but... you know, if you're positioning for selling or you're positioning for opening multiple locations, the website text has to reflect that. So it's a good way to kind of get them in the right mindset of just focusing on their business rather than in their business. And of course, we need to hit record. Ciara (09:19) very important. Abby Wood (09:20) I know every

single person I've ever worked with has forgotten to hit record at some point. Ciara (09:24) Mm-hmm. Happens to the best of us. Abby Wood (09:27) It does, yeah. Absolutely. Ciara (09:30) And sometimes tech doesn't want to play ball. And that's why I think the likes of Otter and Fathom, those automated kind of transcriptions and they join your call. So as soon as you sign up for one of these kind of platforms, they join your call almost as another person and it's automated. So that means you don't have to hit record because the robots have your back. Riley (09:37) Yeah. Ciara (09:59) And obviously, you know, it's it's would be good practice to record anyway, so you have a backup ⁓ and those platforms also do automated transcriptions of your call. They'll do automated summaries. You can search the transcription for particular talking points. And I think, you know, as copywriters, that is extremely valuable and helpful to look back on the transcription and see exactly what was said, because. When you're chatting to the client and you're interviewing them, you just want it to be organic. You don't want to be kind of, sorry, what did you say there? I'm just going to write that down. Abby Wood (10:36) Can you just repeat that phrase over and over again and wait for me to write it down? Yeah, yeah. Not a good look. Wonderful. Yep, absolutely. all good. So now that we are fully prepared for the call, so we have our list of questions that we want to ask them. They know how to show up. We know where we're showing up and we have everything kind of prepped and ready. So setting the scene, we're on the call. The client has turned up. We've, set our pleasantries. Everyone's feeling good. We've hit record. What's next? Ciara (11:14) I I would always start with some kind of ice-breaky questions. I don't want to jump straight into like, hello, nice to meet you. What is your mission statement? Yeah, so I would just, you know, ask them how their day is going, how their morning is going, how their week was, where they're based, what that's like. And I think that just kind of lets people ease into the process and know that they're talking to someone who is easy to talk to. And I think that that makes a big difference. And also puts me at ease as well, because I can... I can get a sense for the client and we can kind of make it a fun experience from the very beginning. So yeah, it definitely would start just with kind of, you know, like meeting anyone new, you know, even though we both know what we're on the call for and then kind of get into, okay, here's what we're here to do. Abby Wood (12:08) Yeah, exactly. think it's a big part of it, especially kind of getting them comfortable and easing them into it. mean, you know, luckily, you know, we live in a beautiful country that the majority of people absolutely love, you know, kind of Ireland is a super popular destination. kind of as soon as I say, ⁓ you know, we're based in Ireland, know, I always say, have you visited? And then usually most people know someone or have been, and then you could just start a great conversation like that. And it just, brings the human side of it in, you know, kind of we're rapport building here. This isn't, like I said before, it's not an interrogation. We're not like, there's three of your core values. What is your mission and vision? You know, kind of what is your profit and loss for the last six years? Like, no, that's not what we're here for. We're getting to know them as people and they're getting to know us as people. So we're still selling the experience guys. We are. Ciara (12:46) you Abby Wood (12:58) getting their buy-in and we're gaining their trust so that they feel comfortable handing over something that is a big deal. Like getting website copywriting done professionally, especially if you've never written with a never written, never worked with a copywriter before, it's a big deal handing off something that's quite precious to them. we are selling that experience of, know, kind of, we're here to help you. It is a two-way street. You give us information. We make it sound fantastic. We take care of the SEO. You give feedback. It's not, we're taking your website over and we're going to write whatever. So yeah, I think, I think that's a really, a really good point. So a little bit of a tricky situation for quite a few agency owners. If the client already has a copy that they've written, already has a website, ⁓ and it's maybe a little bit outdated, it might be a little bit off brand, or maybe it's very obviously just AI generated and there's been no, no editing at all. How would you approach that situation from the get go? Ciara (14:07) Well, I would first ask who wrote the copy because you don't know if you're sitting in front of the exact person who wrote the copy and they're really proud of it. You know, get an idea of like, how did this copy come to be? What's the story behind it? Who wrote it? Was it a team? Has it been to just turn into Franken copy over the years with a ton of people editing it and actually nobody feels any sort of which way about it or super tied to it. Abby Wood (14:18) 100 % Ciara (14:37) Or are you talking to the person who wrote the copy and they love it, but they know that maybe it needs a bit of updating. So that'll kind of set the scene for you as to like, you know, kind of what to say and how to say it in terms of what's wrong with it or what you deem, what you think needs to improve. So, yeah, definitely, you know, kind of keeping things positive in that way. So like focusing on what can be improved. as opposed to being super harsh and saying this is what's wrong with it because at one point someone loved it and it was great and maybe it was working and performing fantastically. So I would gently just kind of educate them on what best practice is now and where that doesn't meet those standards. So

things like not kind of falling into the trap of we-itis and we do this and we're great because and we've achieved X, Y, Z but focusing on your client, your customer, your target audience, what do they want? What are their needs? How can you fulfill them? What are their desires? What are their problems? And story brand, the idea of taking them on a journey from kind of the land of sad to the land of happy. It's cheesy, it works really well and you're the guide to take them there. kind of, that could be something that. is a big problem on their current copy but maybe it's it's that you know it was written by AI you can tell we're getting a lot more websites in now that need refreshing or you know a rewrite that maybe were were put up very quickly and you can tell that it was written with AI and so I wouldn't I would never say that to a client like I think this was written by AI because you know it can be a sensitive topic and maybe Some people are a little bit, they don't want to admit that they wrote it with AI or they might be quite upset to learn that their previous copywriter or SEO person or whoever wrote it with AI. So I would never kind of accuse anyone of that. would just kind of, but I mean, as copywriters we can always tell. But I would just be very gentle with that subject and say, it's sounding a bit stiff. It's sounding a little bit, you know, it's not showing your great personality that you guys have. It's not, I don't get the, you know, the real people behind the company and what really makes you you. And that's what I want to bring out in this process. Abby Wood (17:04) Absolutely. that's, yeah, depending on who I want to call with, sometimes I will be like, did you use AI for this? know, you, you know, kind of, can tell just not in a judgmental way, but in a, you know, kind of playful way of just like, okay, you know, kind of it's, you can tell that it's AI and it's been unedited. ⁓ you know, but you know, we're here to make it better. And it's great that you've got this down and we've got something to work with. So it's always framing it in a really positive way. Ciara (17:32) Mm-hmm. Abby Wood (17:34) One of the things I like to do, ⁓ especially if it's kind of really outdated text or, know, kind of somebody's cousin wrote it for them and, know, kind of they're like, do you know what? It's not professional, professionally written, but, know, kind of it's, you know, it's got us here. I always like to say, look, it's got you to where you are today and it's done its job and it's done a fantastic job at that. So, you know, let's give it a bit of a, a bit of TLC, a little bit of a refresh to take you from where you are today to where you want to be tomorrow. You know, so it's, it's just, it's acknowledging the fact that either they've, they've paid for somebody to do this, even if it's not great. ⁓ and just, know, kind of like it's, it's a, it's a great building block, block, great building block to getting

you, you know, kind of better results in the future. So just acknowledge that of just like, Hey, it's got you to where you are today. Same if they have like a really awful logo that you know kind of I always use the example of a company that we did work with absolutely decades ago and it looked like a snail. but it meant the world to the logo looked like a snail guys and you guys can't see Kieran Reilly laughing but they're laughing it did look like a snail and they were in recruitment and it had nothing to do with it but the guy had paid you know kind of one of his you know kind of one of his nieces to do it and it was it meant the world to him and so yeah you never know the history what Riley (18:59) That's really cute though. That's really cute though. That little smile. Ciara (19:03) A little snail. Abby Wood (19:05) A little snail, Talking of where people have come from and where they are going. I tend to think of these type of interviews split into two. So we have people that are looking for new websites for new brands. So startups, maybe they've never even had a website, but they've been in business 40 years and now they need to get online. So there's not a huge amount to work with ⁓ online already. And then rebuilds. So the type of questions that you're going to ask during those two things is going to be very, very different. And there's going to be a lot more information pulling from the new websites. ⁓ than there would be with the rebuilds. So at least with rebuilds, you can ask, hey, what do you not like about what the website currently says? know, what do you feel is outdated on the website? Whereas with the new brands, you're pretty much starting from scratch. So you can ask questions like, you know, kind of, are there any companies that you really love the text on their website? You know, that kind of stuff. Do you guys have any tips on getting info out of clients who aren't sure about what they want? Riley (20:08) ⁓ I, yeah, if, if a client doesn't know, ⁓ what they want, ⁓ sometimes you'll ask a client a question and they'll kind of just look at you with a kind of confused look and they're not really sure of what, what they should answer that. Or, ⁓ I think I've had a lot when clients were just kind of like, you know, the little awkward laugh would be like, ⁓ I don't know. ⁓ I think in like my first instinct there. is to rephrase the question because sometimes although the question might make complete sense to us and like when we're saying it, we're like, ⁓ this is a very basic question. The client might not have even thought about an answer to that question in the way you phrased it. I think starting with kind of the elevator pitch, like asking a client, how would you describe your business to somebody like if you're chatting over a pint or a coffee, how would you explain what you do? Because if you're just asking straight away like, well, what does your company stand for? What's the

mission? What are your values? Some clients might not know what to say in reply to that, where if you get them talking about their business, they might just tell you what their mission and values are without realizing it because I find that some clients are really happy to talk about their business. They're proud of their business. So the more they talk about the business, the more they answer questions that they might not have understood when you ask them in a way that we're used to asking them. Abby Wood (21:57) Absolutely. Yep. I love that. It's like comparing, you know, kind of what is your mission statement with, hey, you're at a barbecue and you meet someone new and they ask what you do. What do you usually say? Because even if they have to really dumb it down, that helps us get to the key core of exactly who they are and what they do and who they do it for. And so even just kind of bringing them down to that level. And again, it's meeting them where they are. What kind of language do they use? You you could, you can go all guns blazing and just be like, so are you like a professional company? Are you formal, informal? And words have different connotations to everyone. So somebody may hear formal and think, God, that's, you know, kind of legal sector for, you know, ⁓ kind of suits and boots and everything. And that isn't me at all. But They may actually be quite a formal company underneath it that uses, you know, kind of formal language, but they don't resonate with the idea of formality. know, kind of, they may turn up to meetings in, you know, shorts and flip-flops, you know, but they may still be quite professional in, you know, kind of their approach. So it's just all about kind of figuring out exactly who they are and what they do. in their own language, which means that the language you use on the site is going to resonate with them and the target audience. ⁓ And that gets back to the core of exactly what we're doing these meetings for. It's to get the words that our clients use in their meetings, in their emails, whether they answer the phone a certain way or not, and then communicating that with the website text itself so that we're creating this seamless online experience, this seamless brand. ecosphere, if you will, so that there's no kind of jarring, kind of, we're super professional. And then they answer the phone like, what's up? so we need to make sure that clients are having, kind of a very unified experience. I guess a tip that I'm going to check in here, it's completely stolen from the wonderful Carl Van Dusen from the admin bar. If they're having trouble, explaining what makes them different or you know kind of what makes their approach different ask them what they don't like about their industry or what they don't like about what their competitors do because it is a lot easier to say what you don't like about somebody else and what they're doing than to say you know we're great because we do this this this and this so little a little pro tip which is stolen there enjoy use it Ciara (24:41) I think one of the best ways to make sure that you're getting the info you need is again, it goes back to prep, making sure you have your list of questions ready so that you don't, you know, feel sometimes when other people feel awkward, you feel awkward, might, you know, lose your train of thought or forget your question or not know what to ask next. And I think just making sure you have a full list of questions ready to go. to grab a different one if that one is not working. Sometimes like, you know, a question just isn't working for a client and it doesn't matter how many ways you ask, it's like they get stuck and that happens to the best of us. So I think it's better to just actually switch gears and I'll say that I'll be like, okay, let's switch gears for a little bit. I want to now talk about your target audience or, you know, move on to a different section. We have a list of discovery call questions that the whole team uses and know, I don't know where I'd be without them because like even though I've done probably hundreds of discovery calls at this stage, I still have this list open because it just is a reference point, it's a reminder, it's somewhere to go when you're kind of okay where do I go next and it's split up into opening questions, questions about target audience, questions about tone of voice, questions about company history, so you know it's a good way of kind of going to different sections. Instead of looking at a list of 100 questions, you're looking at it broken down into key sections. So it means that if you're already in one section, you cannot just ask the next question in that one or a different one. If you're already talking about its target audience or the client's target audience, you have a list of other questions you can ask there. Riley (26:28) Yeah, so some of the examples of the questions that we use. So we have a lot of, like we have them broken down into sections, which I think also helps keep the call on track. Cause you kind of know kind of in your head of timeline, like, okay, I have to, you know, start with like the opening questions. Then we'll go and talk about the target audience, then tone of voice. then a company history, I feel is important, but if we're just doing a, like a one pager. or a website that doesn't have like an in-depth about page. I think some of the more like meatier questions aren't necessary because although it's great information to have about background, there's usually only like a little tiny section on ⁓ one-pagers or ⁓ smaller projects. I start off with like quite basic questions like tell me what you do and who you do it for and if they have a website already and I love this question asking them what they like and what they don't like about their current website which helps us highlight what we definitely shouldn't include in the new copy but also what we

should include because they said they like this so we should transfer this over to the new copy. And then going into what services do they offer, asking them details about them and the different audiences that each of the services cater towards. And then we move into the questions about the target audience. talking about what their ideal client is, who they love working with, who they don't like working with, what kind of pain points does their company help ⁓ solve and what kind of problems do they help solve. Also an important question to get is where the company is located because like here in our very small country. When you say Ireland, you're just, you you're in Ireland, but you're like, I'm from the US. It's like where there's, there's so many different states ⁓ that especially if we're using local SEO, we can't just localize it to, the US. has to be localized to not even the state, the smaller like towns within that state. ⁓ America is so big. Abby Wood (28:56) It is. that's really good point. Like if you're working with an e-commerce client, you know, are they offering their services nationwide? Because I remember we had a wonderful, wonderful client who was doing alcohol and they couldn't actually transport it over certain state lines. So it's really important whether you're working with like a local client or a national or international client that you're aware of those kind of details. Because, know, kind of if, say if we'd gone into that website and just be like, we deliver nationwide. Well, no, actually we don't, you know, so it's, it's, it's important to know their, service areas. Absolutely. Riley (29:35) we also ask if they have any prior research done. So sometimes if they're working with another agency, there might be other discovery docs that have keywords and other important information about the company that is helpful to know. And then once we have everything about the target audience, it's then into talking about how they'd like to be perceived with the tone of voice and what they do and do not like about the tone of voice and the messaging in the current copy that's on their website. So I think those are kind of the more important sections of questions. And then we have the company history as well. Abby Wood (30:15) I think that for the copywriting kickoff call, the main focus is usually that brand messaging, voice and tone ⁓ positioning, because a lot of the time, wonderful agencies that we work with already have, you know, kind of like an outline of services or this kind of thing. You know, but if we're going in and we already have that background information, wonderful. If not, we ask on the call, but the brand positioning. Riley (30:22) Yeah. Ciara (30:22) Everyone. Abby Wood (30:42) the voice and the tone for the website is probably where you're going to go. wrong if you're going to go wrong. So it's really important to get that. mean, we use a lovely little brand matrix

thing that we fill out. And obviously we have our many, many brand archetypes that we use as well to really hone in on the type of language that they're going to use. You know, kind of, I always think back to a client that we worked with quite a few years ago. ⁓ And she was very, very formal, lovely, lovely woman, lovely client. ⁓ But she refused to use contractions because she thought it was unprofessional. know, so just to know those really kind of... ⁓ very specific things for each type of type of client that you're working with is incredibly important. kind of do they consider themselves very modern? Are they very traditional? Are there any words that they really just will not use? how do they describe their own company? Like, do they consider themselves a studio, an agency, Do they have a specific word that they use for clients or customers or users, that kind of stuff? So you need to really get into the nitty gritty details of the language choices as well on this call. Ciara (31:49) I think as well, like, it can be difficult sometimes to manage clients that maybe are going into too much detail with things. So I think you need to be conscious of the time you have. If they're going into the nitty gritty details of every single service that they have in subservice, you know, I would Abby Wood (32:00) Yes. Ciara (32:12) I would tend to kind of let them know that they can send over service bullet points or what's included in each service after the call, that these are kind nitty gritty details. And this call is really about achieving XYZ, like understanding how you want to be presented and positioned and that they're, you know. We don't want to take up the call too much with all of those kind of details because 30 minutes goes by really fast. It goes by really fast. Abby Wood (32:47) It goes by so quick. And, and yeah, kind of with, things like, ⁓ you know, like an outline of exactly what's included with the product or, know, the exact outline of, you know, every single team members, 40 year history, we don't need on this call. This call is about language. This call is about how they speak so they can send that over in an email, a, Dropbox, whatever it is that they use, they can send over that kind of stuff later. And that brings us onto an incredibly, ⁓ important. topic which is how to keep the cool on track because when people are passionate about their companies my goodness do they love to talk about it in a lot of detail and so yeah my my general tips like the one for Kira just mentioned is you know kind of okay we've only got 30 minutes together let's make the most out of it you know I have a few questions that we definitely need to cover we have any time after that we can go into you know kind of anything else ⁓ Spoiler alert, you're not gonna have enough time to go into anything else. And if needed you can book a second follow-up meeting. ⁓ But we make it clear from the get-go we have a hard stop at insert time here. I have another meeting booked in so I, you know, I have to be good at this time. Obviously we're not making them sound like they're taking up our time. We're just being honest and upfront with, okay, we have 30 minutes together. And if we need any further kind of meetings, then we can book that in at the end. And we're being very, very clear that we are keeping to copywriting only. This isn't a general check in. This isn't, ⁓ what about this form? This isn't kind of design. This is literally just the words on the website. That is all we're covering. How do you guys try to keep things on time and on topic? Riley (34:36) One thing I like to do to keep things on time is of course everything Abby has also said tell them that what time the meeting is finished at and that we want to make the most of the meeting but in I like to follow a timeline while in my head or of what I need to do like okay we need to spend like five minutes talking about this ten minutes talking about this and as soon as it gets to that like 10 minutes, I try to fit in the question that will lead on to the next section of the interview. So I think that works really well because it's like, I know how long is in the meeting. I know that it's like, if it's two minutes to after like, okay, well, we're wrapping up now and this is going to happen next and such near the end that if I give myself these points. these points in time over the meeting that I know when to move on to the next series of questions so that we can get at least some of each part of our questionnaire in before the meeting ends. Abby Wood (35:43) Absolutely, and I think sometimes if you are concerned that you have a client that does love a good old chinwag and there's nothing wrong with that at all, we love chatty people, we love you know meeting people and getting to know them and stuff, front load the interview, get the most important stuff out of them. upfront, you know, kind of, I, I tend to leave, you know, details about history and details about service or products or whatever, to the very end. I like to go in with, tell me a little bit about kind of who you are, what you do, who you do it for. And then, you know, how do you show up to meetings? What kind of language do you use? You know, how do you speak to, you know, your, your clients? What do they expect from you? That kind of stuff so that we can get the voice and tone stuff upfront and in, well, in person as in over zoom, because it's a lot easier to get the other stuff, you know, over Google Docs or over Dropbox or something like that. So yeah, I think that's a great tip Riley. Keira, anything to add? Ciara (36:41) Yeah, I would say like watch for when things are going off track, recognise that and kind of gently nudge them back in the right direction. Like I've definitely had a lot of calls where, you know, they kind of start talking about, you know, the images on their website or the design stuff ⁓ or just

general, you know, project questions unrelated to copy. So I would kind of say let's let's flag that for your designer and we can. Abby Wood (36:57) Bye. Ciara (37:10) We'll circle back, but let's just, you know, let's kind of go back to, you know, copy for now, but that's a really good point. And let's make sure your designer knows. And, you know, you can even say, I'll pop XYZ a message about that. Take it off their plate and just say, ⁓ because like you're working with the digital agency. You know, so it's probably easier for you to be like, by the way, the client had a few design questions. Here they are. Abby Wood (37:18) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Ciara (37:38) But letting them know that it's acknowledged, but that's not my area. Abby Wood (37:43) Yeah, exactly. And I think I think that's for agency owners that are out there as well that are doing kind of everything themselves. One fair play to you. That is not easy. And two, you know, kind of like, okay, well, you know, We could put a pin in it for the moment and we'll come back to that when we have our design meeting, know, kind of next week or blah blah blah. I'll make a note of it and we'll make sure we cover it. But for the moment, let's focus on copy. Let's focus on this. Let's focus on getting this done. And so it's it's acknowledgement. It's kind of affirming that you understand, but it is gently swaying them back to the conversation. And OK, so end of the call. How do we wrap these up? Ciara (38:25) So I would let them know what the next steps are. So wrapping it up saying that's all we have time for today. And I would thank them for being open with me for being on the call. Like we said before, it's not an easy thing for everyone to do. It can be quite nerve wracking. So just thanking them for, you know, being this experience and being open to it and letting them know that they did a good job. think some people overthink, did I say too much? I not say enough? Abby Wood (38:55) Mm-hmm. Ciara (38:55) So just letting them know they did a good job and you got everything that you needed so thank you for that. And then just letting them know okay here's what to expect next. You know here's how the this is when I'll often kind of show them an example of another website that I've written because every copywriter will have their own process and tools that they use to present and write copy in. So we use Google Docs and we wireframe out the pages in Google Docs using you know, images and boxes and this type of thing and making sure that everything has the right kind of H1s, H2s, H3s. I would give them a quick rundown of what that looks like so that they understand what they're going to get and how to leave feedback. this is how you add a comment. This is how you use the suggestion tool. This is how things are going to look. And this is what your designer will use as the frame or the template. to design your site and it's definitely open to changes as

well, let them know that. But it's really kind of selling why we do it this way. We do it this way so that you can see, get a visual representation of how your copy is gonna look visually and the hierarchy, the layout, that type of thing. And then give them the timeline of when they can expect things to arrive. So we always do our homepage first. And the reason we do this is to set the kind of tone and voice and make sure that we're on the same page and heading in the right direction before we then go and do the rest of their website pages. Or if it's a much larger website, we'll do it in two batches. So just giving them like, you know, all that information is really important so that they're not having to, you know, email you and say, when is this coming over? we've a seven day working day turnaround. And that's pretty standard across all of our clients, unless you want to pay a fee, which sometimes happens. So yeah, just just letting you know and also telling them that you'll follow up with this information in an email so that they are. Abby Wood (41:02) That's what I was just gonna say, yeah, absolutely. So our post-call to-dos basically. So we've wrapped up our thing. We've let them know that we're gonna get in touch. Riley (41:12) So as soon as the call of like it's over, I just email the client straight away with any of the like kind of repeating what was said at the end of the call and telling them what the next steps and what to expect that if it's a large project that will have the homepage over to them first, I'll give them the date that it should be. it should be like in their inbox. ⁓ I'll tell them that they have one round of revisions and that we'll implement the edits before sending it back to them and that we won't move on to the rest of the pages if there are more pages until the homepage is completely signed off and they're happy with it. I'll also usually add something like if they have any questions or they think of anything else that they want included in the website to reach out to me and send me an email, like it's assuring them that it's completely fine for them to email me if they need to. Yeah, I'll also email the agency owner if they're working with an agency to let them know that the call went well and this work is now scheduled in and it'll... it should be over to you by this date. Kind of the same information that I'm sending the the end client. Abby Wood (42:36) Yeah, absolutely. think it's, this is a great opportunity as well to just gently remind the, the, client, ⁓ you know, this is the, this is the timeline. So we're going to have homepage ready by blah, blah, blah. ⁓ then you leave feedback, we implement and then we'll do the rest. ⁓ but if there's, know, kind of a delay in leaving the feedback, then obviously. that timeline is pushed out a little bit. I find that that's quite a common issue for a lot of agency owners is clients not giving feedback. ⁓ So yeah, I think it's important at that point to just gently remind them. ⁓ And also, you know, kind of giving them guidance of leaving helpful feedback. So most of the time you will cover it on the call itself, but ⁓ I know, Kira, you've got a great example of helpful feedback is less, I don't like this and more... this doesn't sound like me because. So give them examples of what good, helpful feedback looks like. Cause there's, nothing worse than somebody just being like, I don't like it. And then you're like, well, why, how, how am I meant to change this? Give me something to work with here. ⁓ so yeah, I think that's good. Ciara (43:45) Yeah, I feel like make it punchy is like the equivalent of make the logo bigger. Abby Wood (43:51) Yep. ⁓ 100%. ⁓ Ciara (43:54) What do you mean by punchy? I mean, I think as well, everyone has like, when you're leaving feedback, it can be a bit tricky because some, someone's, you know, perspective on what is, you know, punchy or casual or more, you know, inspiring, whatever it might be different. But again, like I do think a lot of that is covered on your call. That's why the call is so important so that there isn't as many, like, that there isn't as much kind of confusion with feedback or that you're not sure where they're coming from with their feedback. just feel like if you don't have that call it can just be a bit of a nightmare because you don't really understand their perspective or you know what kind of voice that they're going for. ⁓ And I think another important thing with feedback is make sure that there is one person leaving feedback. Max two but like one because especially if you're working with any sort of Abby Wood (44:47) ⁓ yeah. Ciara (44:54) you know, board or association or, you know, a larger organization with many people involved who want to have their say, try to get them to say, you know, to agree to one person filtering that feedback into the doc. Otherwise, it's sometimes people end up having conversations in the doc and they're going back at each other in the doc as to what they like and don't like as opposed to them all kind of. collating and filtering that feedback through one person because then it becomes more of a consensus or at least, you know, one person takes ownership of it and, know, it might get the final sign off by the CEO or whatever. Abby Wood (45:32) think that whenever I'm dealing with kind of charities or nonprofits or just associations, I always try to kind of be like, you know what, when you get the homepage, everyone reads individually and then you know, sit down, have a cup of tea, have a cup of coffee, have your discussions about it, you know, as a group together, and then one person leaves, you know, kind of the decisions on the Google Doc. So, you know, you can make it, you can still make it friendly and you can still make it, you kind of very approachable, but it's literally get all of your arguments out of the way before you leave your

feedback. Ciara (46:04) I think with feedback as well, I mean, I think a lot of this comes back to our core values. You know, that we're nice people to work for and we send out work that we're proud of. But my point there is that while you might be in love with what you've written, you need to be sensitive and open to the fact that someone might have a different opinion or might want to tweak things slightly. you know, definitely like you can't be super tied to every single word because it can always change. I think just being gentle with with feedback where you do have a strong opinion, maybe it's to do with SEO and maybe they're stripping out keywords and you need to kind of gently remind them that they're in there for a reason. So just being really kind and really kind of open and curious as to Abby Wood (46:40) Mm-hmm. Ciara (47:01) what their perspective on things are. And sometimes, you know, I just don't think you should kind of take your heels in when there's no need to, when you can offer alternatives. like often if someone isn't, you know, if a headline isn't kind of landing with them or not sitting well with them, I'll give them two or three alternative headlines to choose from. And then I can get a sense of what they're enjoying more, you know, and that can help with implementing the rest of the feedback as well. So yeah, but I think, you know, for the most part, we generally get, not to blow our own trumpets, but we generally get really great feedback, you know, on our work. And it's usually quite minor little tweaks and stuff. And I mean, they're, they're obviously easy to deal with. It's very rare that we'll get, you know, have to do something completely again. And usually if that happens, it's, it's due to some sort of miscommunication or, you know, something was missed in the process, but it's just happens so rarely. which is great. I think a lot of that goes into our prep work and making sure that everything is aligned, doing the home page first, makes sure that we're on the same page throughout the process. Abby Wood (48:12) Absolutely. I think that's a really good point, if you're not accustomed to doing this, it's a matter of trial and error. kind of, you may have a client that hates what you've written, but... take the learning opportunity from it that you missed a really important question during the kickoff call, or you didn't prep enough on this, or maybe sometimes it's just not a good match between you and that particular client. ⁓ We can't be precious about website copywriting. You know, kind of at the end of the day, clients are paying us for, you know, that service and they need to be happy with it. You can always gently guide them and try to educate them around best practice. And inside a joke, if everything is absolutely awful, just don't put it your portfolio. Okay, lovely agency owners if you're listening, just leave it off the portfolio. It's okay. Not everything has to be, you know, kind of portfolio worthy. And hopefully it will be though. And so yeah, that's all good. I think that yeah, we're following up anything not covered on the call, giving them a deadline for answers as well. So we're just being open and honest and just very clear in next steps, very clear on expectations from what you're delivering and from what they need to deliver as well. And then hopefully, If you follow this process and this advice, everything should run smoothly. But just a general reminder, sometimes projects don't go smoothly, no matter what you do. So, you know, if something doesn't go quite to plan, don't take it to heart. Sometimes they just go off a little bit. ⁓ But yeah, okay. So I always like to finish these, these calls up these calls, these podcast episodes, my goodness. ⁓ with a couple of, ⁓ cute questions, leave it on a light note. so what has been your weirdest or best client call moments guys? Ciara (50:04) What? Abby Wood (50:12) Anonymous, obviously. We're not naming and shaming, but anonymous. Ciara (50:12) I have. Riley (50:15) yay. Ciara (50:17) I have best and weirdest. I'll start with, well, the best. I mean, it's hard to say the best. I've had so many great client calls that I've had a great time on and some funny things happened or whatever. But this one stands out because it was kind of recently. was actually, ⁓ was, to be honest, now that I think about it, I wasn't on the call. You were on the call. But I was watching the recording of the call for the project and there was... Abby Wood (50:43) Yeah. Ciara (50:45) The agency owner just had this dog sitting on his lap the entire time. But nobody on the call, nobody on, well, I found funny about it and why I loved it. It's because everyone just acted like this wasn't happening, like the dog was not, and this was a big dog sitting on the agency owner's lap, like a big one, not like a little dog. was like nearly bigger than the client. And just sitting there, just kind of chilling out. I think what I found really funny about it is that everyone just acted like this was. completely normal and no one even mentioned the word dog once. And I just was like, is anyone going to mention the dog just casually sitting on that chair? Like, this is amazing. So I really enjoyed that. And I guess. Abby Wood (51:17) Bye. She just appears. Yeah, she's a regular feature. It's just she's just there overseeing things and I think everybody's just so used to her at this point. She's a gorgeous, gorgeous dog and we love that agency. We absolutely love that agency for that. Yeah, it is funny if you're coming into like some random meeting and there's just like, okay, well, there's like a German shepherd here. Okay, well, this is happening. Ciara (51:36) Yeah. I think we're all animal lovers at the content lab. whenever anyone has like the mention times I've been on the call and a cat pops up on the desk and I'm like, my God, you have

a cat? Because I'm cat obsessed. then I'm the one making the call go off track because I'm like, what's the cat's name? my God, it's so cute. I love it. How old is she? You know, like very easy to get distracted. But I love when animals are on calls. And I would say definitely my weirdest call moment was ⁓ Abby Wood (52:00) Yeah. Ciara (52:16) I was on a call with, I can't remember what kind of, I think the industry that the clients were in was like construction or something. And it was, you know, kind of guys in construction. They're, not used to these, again, goes back to why it's so important to kind of make people feel accountable on the call. They definitely weren't used to Zoom calls. And one of the, one of the clients comes onto the call while So he was holding his phone while cycling an exercise bike. And I was like, okay, Kira, play cool, play cool, don't laugh. It was very funny though. But what was funnier is like, he just kind of didn't realize how funny it was himself. It was just kind of like, by the way, I'm just exercising you guys. You keep going. And answering questions, well, like I could just see him hopping up and down on the screen. And it was very interesting for me. The head bobbing. Abby Wood (53:12) a head bobbing. I love I had a really lovely sales call once with a woman that was getting her steps in on a treadmill, but kind of and then like she'd start running and she's like, ⁓ I'm training and I'm just like, fair play to you. You are multitasking. Okay. I love it. Absolutely love it. I couldn't run whilst on a call. I couldn't. Ciara (53:28) I'm gonna lie really quick. Now I'd be out of breath. Abby Wood (53:34) 100%. Riley, do you have any weird or best client call moments? Riley (53:39) One call that sticks in my head was also not a call I did, but a video that I watched that you sent for a client. And this was, think, before Kira joined. And it was two clients. One of them was quite professional and the other one just started ripping a bong. Abby Wood (53:51) of the early days. That was the story I was gonna share! Ciara (54:02) you Riley (54:06) That call always sits in my head because I didn't believe it and then you were like, no, here's the video and I was like, oh my God. Abby Wood (54:10) You Ciara (54:14) Thank Abby Wood (54:16) Now those two clients, I absolutely loved. Okay. I absolutely loved them. it's, it's, ⁓ without kind of, you know, doxing anyone or whatever the hell the young ones call it. ⁓ so it's two brothers. have kind of, ⁓ two same businesses in different areas. One is super professional. The other is super, super laid back. Riley (54:20) They were great. Abby Wood (54:37) And we were just chatting about voice tone and positioning and what, you know, what the businesses do and stuff. And then the super chilled out brother, no surprise, which one it was, just started like just going to town on a bong and his brother just turned to him and was like, dude, it's 10am. And I was like, oh my God. But we kept going, we kept going, we kept going. And you know what? Riley (54:59) It's so funny. Abby Wood (55:02) They were fantastic clients. They were just absolutely lovely to work with. The end projects were amazing. Yeah, I just, yeah, absolutely loved that. That was just so funny. It was weird. It was a first. It's never been repeated. Riley (55:14) was yeah it's so weird it's that Ciara (55:16) By the way, for any listeners in ⁓ Canada or California or wherever it's legal, it's illegal in Ireland still. Hopefully things will change in the future, but it is illegal still. So I think that's why it was even funnier because it's like, that does not happen here. Riley (55:26) Yeah, you can smoke weed. Abby Wood (55:26) Yes. Riley (55:33) Yeah, it's not something you would see here. Abby Wood (55:36) It's not something that you'd see here and it's not something you see like in most places in the US. Like they were in Canada and it's very legal where they're based as well. And each to their own, like I'm not judging, I just found it absolutely hilarious. Like we were having like, okay, what are the core values of the business? And he's like, okay, well we do this and this. Just so funny, absolutely funny. ⁓ okay, well we will, we will. Ciara (55:45) Of course. Riley (55:49) It's really funny. Ciara (55:56) Look, look, look, look, look, look. I'm loving it. Abby Wood (56:05) this wonderful, wonderful episode up. What are you guys reading at the moment? Ciara (56:10) home Riley (56:11) I reading, I actually have it right next to me, I'm reading Wild Irish Women, Extraordinary Lives from History by Marianne Broderick. It's a really good book. It's a great book. I'm currently reading, although I already know the story, I just read Anne Bonny and now I'm on to Dr. James Barry, who shares my last name, no relation. And it's great because you don't have to read it in order, you can just pick the random names at the start and... Abby Wood (56:19) love that. Riley (56:40) read about all these amazing Irish women of history and some of them are wild. It does, it really does. It's great. Abby Wood (56:48) It lives up to the title doesn't it? Just wild. Absolutely wild. Ciara (56:58) Yes, I am reading a book that you actually got me. So this is a book by Sarah Cross and called Here Is The Beehive. Gifted to me by the lovely Abby and very, very good ⁓ book. to give me because I do love it and it's got a beautiful kind of the way it's written. It's like this beautiful kind of prose almost the way that the book is written. It's got a beautiful kind of cadence to it and it's a love story which I love. like, I love love. I like a little romantic novel. Riley (57:39) I love Abby Wood (57:39) He loves love! Riley (57:47) Romantic. Ciara (57:48) Romantic. So yeah, I'm loving it so far. I'm

not the full way through it, but I've been really enjoying picking it up and it's a very easy read. it's kind of, it's a page turner as well because there's an affair involved and there's death also. So there is lots of twists and turns. But I think what I like about it the most is just the kind of the way it's written, like the prose. It's not prose, but it's... Abby Wood (58:04) no. Nice! Ciara (58:16) it looks like it is. It's like short sentences and you know it looks like poetry when you when you're looking at the page and I think that's what I admire about it because it makes me kind of like hang on the words a bit more and reread them a bit more because I'm like what is she trying to say by saying that you know. I think there's a lot of depth in it and yeah thank you Abby. Abby Wood (58:23) Yeah. Fantastic. We love a good blind read because I opened it and I was like, mmm, this looks really interesting. And then I read the summary and I was like, this sounds like a Keira book. So delighted, delighted. Thank you for asking, Riley. I ⁓ am currently reading Wrong Women by Caroline West. The actual opposite of love. It is all about the women of the monto. Ciara (58:48) You are correct. Riley (58:50) What are you reading, Abby? Abby Wood (59:05) which was Europe's largest red light district in Dublin. ⁓ In the early 19th century, I think it closed down like the 19th Riley (59:11) Yes. Abby Wood (59:16) 10s, 1920s, but it's all about their life experiences and kind of, you know, kind of being forced into different institutions and the lock and the magma laundries and that kind of thing. So not a very, you know, kind of bright read. It's good. mean, doing it so far, ⁓ it's nice because it doesn't just focus solely on the, they had really hard lives. And there is a lot about like the community that they made and, you know, kind of the fact that they all looked after each other. Ciara (59:27) Mm-hmm. Abby Wood (59:46) you know if somebody couldn't get enough money to you know get a room for the night then others would help each other and just you know kind of look after each other when they were ill and that kind of thing which which is nice which is a nice focus rather than just the you know kind of forced institutionalization and that kind of stuff which isn't great it isn't great and the book itself is very good it's a little bit repetitive in places so ⁓ yeah but I'm enjoying it. It's a good read. It's historical factual read. ⁓ Yeah, all good. Ciara (1:00:22) can't be a you know, depressing, sexy book on your holidays. Abby Wood (1:00:28) Well, know, yeah, listeners, I'm currently in Turkey and I'm just staring at the massive pile of books that I bought with me. I bought more books than clothes, ⁓ which to anyone that knows me is no surprise at all. ⁓ But yeah, I'm also reading the rewilding book that I mentioned on the podcast with Ms. Mia. So I feel like your first second book for this one. But yeah, that is a lot more kind of less intense and less depression. ⁓ So yeah, there we Ciara (1:00:55) with Abby Wood (1:00:58) I've got some good books lined up including some easygoing literature some easygoing kind of more holiday books as well. So just lots of reading. Yeah Let's have a mix Okay, wonderful well lovely listeners, please let us know what you're reading at the moment and Can anybody top my bong smoking client call? I would love to hear Ciara (1:01:07) e-books. Abby Wood (1:01:25) your personal experiences, your best and your weirdest kickoff calls with clients. ⁓ Hit us up on social media, you can also leave comments on each individual podcast ⁓ or just send us an email to say hi, we'd absolutely love to hear from you. ⁓ That's it guys, thank you Riley, Kira, fabulous as always, have a lovely day guys. Riley (1:01:47) Bye Ciara (1:01:49) Thank you. Bye. Riley (1:01:49) Thank you, bye. Abby Wood (1:01:53) Thank you so much for joining us on this latest episode of the Content Goodies podcast. Thank you to our sponsors, the Content Lab. If you enjoyed this program, please leave us a review. We love to get feedback. And as always, if you need help with any copywriting or content marketing needs, reach out to me at the content lab. You will find our contact details at the bottom of the podcast notes. It has been a pleasure as always look forward to seeing you on the next episode.