บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ John Bradley

it's the land that drives weather over time. 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:33.039 So land use is something that the town of Claverick is extremely interested in. 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:34.800 Citizens are interested in. 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:39.439 We want to make sure that we don't end up with something that's just a bunch of pavement. 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:44.800 We talk about Climate Smart, we talk about the town supervisor, Keppy Weigels. 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:55.199 We talk about the the way that the Climate Smart Group has been increasing its communication with people in Claverick and in surrounding towns through its newsletter. 00:02:55.439 --> 00:02:57.199 I want to give a shout out to that newsletter. 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.199 You can subscribe at ClimatesMartCloverick.com. 00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:06.080 And one of the things I should define that John mentions is CLC. 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:10.800 CLC is Columbia Land Conservancy, a big part of our community. 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:12.479 And we talk a little bit about that. 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:22.960 And really, what's at the center of this conversation and at the center of almost every conversation I have is how do we continue to build community? 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.319 Things changed during the pandemic. 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:36.560 A lot of people from the city moved up here and didn't really know how to integrate themselves with the kloverk that existed before they got here. 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:46.960 And you've heard this in several of my recent shows, most recently with Matt Zucker from the City podcast, which talks about exactly the same thing that I do. 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:52.960 How do we, as outsiders, become part of the future of this town? 00:03:53.199 --> 00:04:02.159 Because, in my experience at least, people that have lived here all their lives want the same thing as those of us that moved up there to this beautiful little community. 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:08.960 I hope you'll find this one interesting, John and I tend to ramble a little bit, so it's a little bit longer than the average. 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:10.639 But but he's a good guy. 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:14.960 And if you've been in Claverick for a little while, you've probably run into John. 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:17.519 He seems to know everybody. 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:19.279 Enjoy. 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:31.439 And then I got a job. 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.399 I couldn't find a professional job, so I got a job at REI. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:35.360 Yeah, I knew. 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:37.680 That must have been fun. 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:38.959 That was awesome. 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:40.079 That was really awesome. 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:40.480 Yeah. 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:42.399 Is that when you picked up cycling? 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:44.639 That's a I first started. 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:55.439 I remember the first time I was uh someplace around Midtown on the Riverside Drive, and I thought I said, I looked up the river and saw the bridge. 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:58.639 I said, I'll bet I could ride up to the bridge and back. 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:02.399 So what year is that? 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:05.279 That was probably 2010 or 11. 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:05.759 Oh, yeah. 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:06.480 Maybe 2011. 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.920 So you came to cycling later than the other. 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:16.000 I played hockey ice hockey right up until my 60, past my 65th birthday. 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:16.480 Oh, yeah. 00:05:16.720 --> 00:05:24.319 And so sometimes I would just do for short rides just for conditioning, but I never really did any real rides. 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:31.360 Yeah, for a long time they there seemed to be like a a crossover in training between skating and cycling. 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.000 And and rollerblading, I loved rollerblade. 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:40.160 And when they were they paved that the road by home quest. 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:41.199 Spook rock road. 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:42.160 Spook rock road. 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.240 And I thought, boy, I could I would use my rollerblade since I got moved up here. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.240 And I thought, boy, this would be a perfect road. 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:56.160 When I lived in Long Island City on Sunday, sometimes, because I was working the whole time, I would find the roads that they had paved recently. 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:59.360 And Sunday morning, and I can go out and ride them in Long Island City. 00:05:59.680 --> 00:06:02.079 Yeah, there's nothing like that feeling on smooth new paint. 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:02.800 That's right. 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:03.120 Yeah. 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:09.439 But the rest of the but the rest of the time I was too terrified to to ride in traffic, to skate in traffic. 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:21.439 Yeah, I used to live in Boston, and uh then riding in downtown traffic is a weird experience because on the one hand, you can make yourself pretty visible to people, and people are not moving that fast. 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:23.759 But on the other hand, there's so many of them. 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:24.720 That's right. 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:30.079 And they're all moving, and if they're paying attention to their phone instead of you, you could be in a dangerous situation. 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:30.720 Yep. 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:31.199 Yeah. 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:35.519 We've got this flat now in Brooklyn. 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:44.560 And I took my other my old all-city bike and I started riding, and it is terrifying riding in the city now with all the electric bikes and all. 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.199 Yeah, and they seem to ignore all the traffic rules. 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:48.000 That's right. 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:56.240 Because I've ridden with you before, and we we don't stop at a stop sign where there's good visibility and so forth, but stop lights we always stop.

00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:56.480 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:01.920 But you and you also in the city that you really have to be conscious of 360 degrees around you. 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:02.399 Yeah. 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.199 And and it's just it's really terrifying. 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:17.360 So I've just been doing short rides around Brooklyn Prospect Park, and I figure I also need to learn how to use the subway map for finding out which elevators work. 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:23.279 Because I don't want to take an hour to ride to Central Park when I want to spend two hours riding with friends in the park. 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:24.240 Oh, I see. 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:31.519 So I gotta find someplace where, relatively speaking, so I can take it on and off. 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.560 Because so many of the elevators don't work. 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.600 That's a constant problem in New York, is that they're broken and people that are disabled or whatever can't. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.480 But anyway, there is a website that tells you, but it's anyways, it's relearning. 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:51.120 When I left eight, nine years ago, it was that was my most comfortable way of moving around the city. 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:51.439 Yeah. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:55.040 And and there weren't really, there were almost no electric bikes. 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.959 And and so it was really pretty safe and it was fun. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:00.480 And anyways, it was just great. 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:12.160 I don't want to be up on I don't want to be up on the e-bike crowd or in any way, but I think the problem in New York that I've seen is those those electric bikes that are not really bicycle bikes. 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:15.680 They in other words, they're not the motor's not pedal activated. 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:20.160 They're basically like scooters and they go 30 or 40 miles an hour sometimes. 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:29.040 Yeah, and then a lot of the delivery people use them and so forth, which is great for them, but let's face it, that's a dangerous digital. 00:08:29.519 --> 00:08:31.279 But they use the bike lanes and sidewalks. 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:31.680 Yeah. 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.559 And and so it's it is it's really unnerving. 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:34.960 Yeah. 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:35.840 Uh anyways. 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:38.720 I mean, so you mentioned coming up here eight or nine years ago. 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:39.919 You mean to Claverick? 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:40.879 Oh, yeah. 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:41.440 Oh yeah. 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:42.799 Yeah, we're recording. 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:50.240 We're talking all about cycling and so I was saying when did you come up to Cloverick? 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:51.519 You said eight or nine years ago. 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:52.639 Yeah, back in the yeah. 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.159 What is that noise? 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.279 Oh, I'm sorry, it

has something to do with my dishwasher. 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:01.679 Oh. 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:02.159 Okay. 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:04.480 That's what you get when you record in a home. 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:10.159 My wife apparently started the dishwasher and now it's now it's doing some sort of exhaust cycle or something. 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:20.799 So in 18, we knew we when my once had retired, we started thinking about where we were going to move uh out of the city. 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:28.879 So we were interviewing, so to speak, a lot of towns and seeing w what we wanted, what we liked, what we could afford. 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:33.360 Tell me about that process, because I'm always really curious about we sort of do the same thing. 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:41.039 Katie and I were we moved out of Boston, and it took some time to find where we wanted to be, but then once we found it, we knew it right away. 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:41.600 Yeah. 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.639 Yeah, I would say that's close to our situation also. 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:58.240 But we pretty quickly ruled out Connecticut and New Jersey just because of the density, the expense, and it just wasn't but one of our criteria was that we wanted to be able to get into the city fairly easily. 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.039 And because we like theater and we have a lot of friends. 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:07.519 So we were focusing mostly on the Hudson Valley, and there were a train? 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:08.879 Because of the trains, yeah. 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:22.159 And we so we interviewed, we visited, we spent a weekend in a lot of different towns, and and we had two good friends we had gotten involved with in Long Island City, Tom Pino and Peter Johnson. 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:34.159 And Long Island City was unique, it was a very new community, and the real estate industries were just building these high-rises along along the shore and all around like crazy. 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:39.759 And they were not, they were not putting in much parkland, they certainly weren't building schools. 00:10:40.000 --> 00:10:46.799 So there was they were really and they weren't building proper sewage uh systems for all of this new development. 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:47.440 Oh, really? 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:50.240 And so we So it was just going, it was booming too fast. 00:10:50.639 --> 00:11:05.600 Yeah, there we hooked up with a lot of community, with a couple of community groups that were concerned about this, and we had originally expected to be more involved in political issues, but in reality we were just fighting the real estate industry. 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:32.480 So when Amazon, for example, when Amazon started announced that they were gonna buy up this huge track of area in Long Island City, which we had already identified as having important community uses, including some public lands, the our sort of organizational infrastructure was there to uh to oppose Amazon's big

move and the state putting all this money into it. 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:40.159 And what we found was that uh in being involved in this community in a community like this, we made lots of new friends. 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:47.600 And eventually, as more and more people jumped on the bandwagon, Amazon was persuaded to not move. 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:48.960 And so we stopped them. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:50.480 And that was a real eye-opener. 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:55.279 Was that your first real big experience in community organizing kind of things? 00:11:55.679 --> 00:12:05.759 Not really, because I had been in the Peace Corps and been involved in a whole range of community organizing, from co-ops to to working around labor health and work. 00:12:06.159 --> 00:12:11.840 I did work for the United Mine Workers' Health Program for uh a number of years back in the 70s. 00:12:12.159 --> 00:12:12.559 Oh okay. 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:14.480 As a union organizer? 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:16.720 No, as a manager in one of their clinics. 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:17.200 Oh, okay. 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.879 Black line program and some and and clinic operations. 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:47.200 So that's a a different and long story, but I because of especially the Peace Corps, I had a lot of training in community organizing, so I had that sort of at attitude in organizations, and when I was working in hospitals, I always thought of myself as a change agent, which doesn't get you to the top, but it makes it a really interesting and you get involved in solving a lot of interesting issues. 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:47.759 Yeah. 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:48.080 Yeah. 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.080 Anyways, so where was I? 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:52.080 So So you stopped Amazon? 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:53.919 Well, anyway, so we stopped Amazon. 00:12:54.080 --> 00:13:03.200 But what we learned from all that experience was that when you get involved in the community, that's a good way to make friends and and you meet interesting people. 00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:11.519 So what made you decide not to stay there full time in the long run and and have it was it a retirement kind of decision? 00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:13.919 It was basically a retirement decision. 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:32.240 We also uh had bought a condominium right at the edge of a flood zone in Long Island City, and when Hurricane Sandy hit, the water flooded to within about fifty feet of our condominium building's basement door. 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:42.720 And if the if the basement with its garage had flooded, we never would have been able to sell our condominium. 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:43.679 That's what we figured. 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.440 So we had no choice but to move out of that neighborhood. 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:51.200 Because you were convinced that eventually there's going to be a bigger storm. 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:52.159 There always is. 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:54.320 There's always a bigger storm on the horizon sometimes. 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:55.120 That's right. 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:00.480 Mostly just we figured we we couldn't risk our limited savings. 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:09.840 And so we need we needed to move, and we figured it was a there were so many areas that we're interested in if we wanted to explore them. 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:16.559 And our friends uh Tom Payne and Peter Johnson had told us about Columbia County and Claver. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:29.679 And so one time Tom was doing a a show for builders and architects and others on the passive house they're building in that they were remodeling and building in in Philmont and invited us. 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:38.240 So we went out for the weekend, stayed in the Airbnb and explored the community and went to this to to this event that they held. 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.360 And actually that's where I met Katie first time, even though I didn't remember. 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:42.480 Katie, my wife, yeah. 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:45.120 Yeah, because I I remember visiting the house. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:46.879 We might have been there too. 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:47.200 I don't know. 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.600 I don't know if it was the same weekend or not. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:15:01.279 But in any case, so we we liked that experience, and we came up for a number of other weekends to explore more and look at the area, the surrounding area. 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:08.240 And there were a a lot of appeals out in in many ways, as as we all well know. 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:16.159 So we said maybe we'll s let me start looking, find a realtor and start looking for seeing what kind of housing option we could find. 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:21.840 Anyway, so that led us through us finding a house in the hamlet that we liked, and we thought that would work out well. 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:28.559 And and went so as soon as we got a offer on our condominium, we decided to to to make the big move. 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:32.240 But this wasn't like a complete abandonment of the city, right? 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.919 Because you you don't you still have an apartment down there someplace? 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:47.840 We do now, but w we intended to uh eventually find a Pieter Terror so that we could visit the city often. 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.960 And we eventually found something in in Sunnyside. 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:52.879 And then it anyways. 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:58.720 So w we moved in up upstate and we wanted to start getting involved in the community. 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:04.080 I had been interested in a number of environmental things when I was in Long Island City. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:20.320 I had to join the Billion Oyster Project, and we had an oyster station in the East River, which was one of these fun little citizen science projects where you pull the cage up every month and you count the oysters and you find what's what the predators are.

00:16:20.559 --> 00:16:24.159 And I never knew that there were all these different kinds of shrimp in the East River. 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:30.879 Not that you would eat them, but just the the sea life was just fascinating and it was a great way to meet people and do things. 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:35.039 And and I wondered about the water quality in New York. 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.440 There's lots of reasons for it being bad. 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.399 And some of it is upstate, the industrial pollution. 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:40.799 Sure. 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.600 And yeah, because it's gonna all gonna flow down there at some point. 00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:47.519 Anyway, so I was I started say I want to understand this better. 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:49.200 It was a pretty interesting experience. 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:55.360 So when I when we moved upstate, I would just prime to be thinking about the environment because I've always liked outdoor stuff. 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:04.720 I like winter sports, I like hiking and uh backpacking, and and I'd gotten into cycling a lot, so I could see that this would be a great place for cycling. 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:07.839 Yeah, it is the the outdoor environment here, is what it's like. 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.119 It turned out to be true. 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:15.119 So once we got here, I started trying to figure out how do I get involved and what what we can do. 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:25.440 And this is about the time that a number of town towns had formed climate smart committees, and this seemed like an interesting thing because it was a structured state program. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.279 There were monies potentially available. 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.119 So let's back up a little bit. 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:33.200 So I want the listeners to know what the climate smart program is, right? 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:38.480 So this is something where the state had money from a variety of sources. 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:44.960 I think some of them was the tobacco settlements, and some of it was DARPA or whatever. 00:17:45.200 --> 00:18:00.160 And they had this money and they decided that what they were gonna do was instead of go around and do the climate resilience kind of improvements themselves, they were gonna ask communities to look at their own situation and make their own plans. 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:09.440 So they created this massive infrastructure of this climate smart communities program where you can get points and then you can get grants and so forth and so on. 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:11.519 And so you you you got interested in that. 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:13.599 I said Claverick isn't doing anything. 00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:17.599 I would attend Claverick meetings and there wasn't a lot of community engagement. 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:25.359 Whereas other towns had started their climate smart communities and had been getting grants to make significant improvements. 00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:32.000 Some of them might just be energy efficiency with the the town government buildings and an easy way to save money, right? 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.359 And I was wondering why isn't there something in Claverick? 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:47.599 And it seemed seems to me that there weren't other organizations in the town where I could get involved as a citizen for to engage in in solving community problems. 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:50.559 So this seemed like an interesting thing to try to do. 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:58.880 So I approached the the town board, and they had seen what was going on in other towns and the county. 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:06.880 The county had stuck it was just starting a program and starting to get funds, and some towns had gotten some substantial amounts of funds. 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:14.960 So I proposed that we start one and I would be willing to, as a volunteer, serve as the coordinator because that was one of the requirements. 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.839 And so they they supported the idea. 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.720 I don't think either they or I had real any idea of what we were getting into. 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.880 And a lot of people stepped up and wanted to get involved also. 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.559 So that was the start of how we got going. 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:48.960 And the state law, the climate law, which included the the provisions for the climate smart program and a clean energy communities program, several different sub programs, detailed what you have to do and how you can proceed and how you can get money. 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.640 And so we started looking at some of those things. 00:19:53.359 --> 00:20:00.640 And and now this is that was in the started in the very end of 2020 19. 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:03.599 And and so we really started rolling. 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:12.960 And now six years later, who would have imagined some of the things that the town is actually doing? 00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:14.640 Yeah, I'm amazed. 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.000 But there were some barriers. 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:19.279 I think that doing anything new is always a barrier. 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:28.960 I think that the state's level of bureaucracy in this program, the state of New York, is pretty typical of New York, and it's a little daunting to your average town board. 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:48.079 And I think that just the focus, the initial focus was all on greenhouse gas emissions, and I think that was a little misplaced because my feeling is that what's happening out of this program, which is really great, is a focus on energy savings, which is benefits everybody. 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.319 It's a cost, big cost measure, and then resilience, right? 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:59.759 Because we see these storms and these heat waves and these droughts and so forth are apparently increasing everywhere, and certainly up here. 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:10.319 And

does the town have the right road infrastructure if there's a lot of runoff, or does the town have the right equipment to manage if there's a wildfire or something like that? 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:19.200 I think all of these things are as they become clearer to us, the town really gets behind them and moves forward. 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:20.400 Absolutely. 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:25.200 And you raised a number of key key issues I want to dig into a little bit more. 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:32.720 But first of all, let me just go back and say when when I formed first formed the committee and started talking with people, I had a couple of goals. 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:43.599 One is to have a forum, a committee-type forum, where people who want to be involved in solving problems relating to the environment and climate issues could be involved and do something. 00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:58.160 And to show that the t the town board that you could use volunteers in a way that's productive and helps them address some of the issues that the town that the state was raising and saying, here's opportunities for you to do things. 00:21:58.480 --> 00:22:03.680 Yeah, that's important because that will Really wasn't happening up to that point in in Claverick. 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:15.440 I think we'd the best way I could describe it is that everybody, the the citizens and the town board had drifted into a sort of complacent way of handling things that it was just business as usual. 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:23.039 And then when you get a big storm or a pandemic or something like that, you suddenly realize that hey, maybe vis business as usual isn't working as well as it could. 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.319 Yeah, that's very true. 00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:49.200 Well I was very interested in having a forum where to just to start working with the town and have a more cordial and collaborative attitude towards problem solving and and and also and bring resources in that the town could take advantage of, like other towns were doing. 00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:51.519 And that was a long process. 00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:57.519 You look now how we conduct, how the town board conducts meeting, they're much more open and engaging. 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.240 But it took a long time for that to evolve. 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:09.440 And at the same time, back then, we had to find little things to do with them, and it was a long, tedious process. 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:22.240 I could give an example of right now the town is considering it is contracted to do a full feasibility study to completely decarbonize the town garage. 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:38.720 This is a huge project that is going to save a lot of money in the long term, and we'll end up with solar panels, ground geothermal heat pumps, and improvements to the envelope structure so it's not losing heat. 00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:47.440 But to get to the point where they do that, there are many little projects that we had to do,

and a lot of people would be involved in it. 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:57.039 For example, one of the early projects that we did, which related to electricity, is to convert the street lights to LED. 00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:04.079 And that after we figured out what it would cost, we figured that there was like a year and a half, I think it was, of payback. 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:05.839 And then that's really short. 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.119 We were using some of the monies that were available, but that started saving money. 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:18.720 And that was just a little example of something that it's not a big deal, but it it's an illustration of what we could do. 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:34.960 One of the bigger challenges was the state says if you want to be certified in certain ways that you should conduct a uh greenhouse gas inventory of your town operations. 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:45.839 So this was a huge project that involved a lot of different volunteers digging digging into understanding everything about the utilities, about energy use, about fuel oil, all of these things. 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:50.160 It took us a couple of years and we did two versions of it. 00:24:50.400 --> 00:25:09.839 And when we completed the study, we realized and we could show that there's the town is spending$130,000 a year just on energy that was let's say it was almost$100,000, excluding the all all the snow plows and such, diesel oil. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:19.839 This is money that could be converted to renewable energy and put the town in charge of its own energy resources. 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:34.000 So when we first presented this, it was just a nice idea, and eventually we developed a plan so that's easy to agree on a plan because it doesn't commit anyone to do it. 00:25:34.160 --> 00:26:01.519 But we took these steps to do these things so that eventually, I guess a year or so ago, when the towns, when Kippy was seeing what other towns were doing and the what the county itself had done when doing in solarizing the their town garage and all starting to employ heat heat pumps, he contacted one of the contractors and said we had an energy audit done. 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:19.680 We did get an energy audit done, which which laid out all the detail of how you would do this stuff in the general terms, and he engaged this uh corporation, Centrica, to do a complete feasibility study to decarbonize the town garage. 00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:23.759 Yeah, I I was very impressed that we got to that point because it took a long time. 00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.400 From the very beginning, there's multiple lenses that you can use to look at this problem. 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:36.799 And one of them is, like I say early on, the focus of the Climate Smart Communities program was on greenhouse gas reductions. 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:48.000 So that's great unless you run into people who, and there are a lot of them out there who don't believe that greenhouse gases

are the problem that we're facing, not the number one problem that we're facing. 00:26:48.240 --> 00:27:01.440 But the other lens that you can easily use to look at all of this is cost savings, which everybody can get behind because that's really what the town board is about, is trying to manage the costs of running a town. 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:15.519 I think I was very impressed that through through your work and other people's work, and then through experience with what other towns and the county have been able to do, Kippy moved forward with this program. 00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:22.079 And I don't think that we're ready to break ground on all these improvements yet, but it's coming. 00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.720 And uh anyway, so that's an impressive evolution. 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:27.200 Yeah. 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:35.039 Both for the town board and for our committee and many people who have been involved in it. 00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.119 And that's why I wanted to talk to you. 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:46.480 Because to I think nowadays it's really hard, and I know it's hard for me, it's really hard for a lot of people to stay focused for that length of time. 00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:49.759 It's now seven years since you started this thing. 00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:52.799 And and it's been a struggle. 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.119 Like you say, we do a lot of little things, and then those build up to uh a bigger success. 00:27:59.519 --> 00:27:59.839 Absolutely. 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:06.720 But it takes patience, and 99.9 percent of us don't have that. 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.480 Not only does it take patience, but it includes a lot of people. 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:17.519 And if I wanted to say something about all the people who have stepped up over these last six years or so. 00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:33.759 And we have, in addition to all, I would I think it's probably at least 15 people who made very significant commitments, and sometimes just for a couple of years, or sometimes it's just doing a certain kind of uh thing, but it's really significant. 00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:43.680 One of the what I think is very impressive things we've done is to deal with just re outreach to the community and community education. 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:58.559 We have developed a website and an absolutely lovely newsletter that started out just for Claverick, but now it includes Claverick, Villemont, and Taconic, and there's talk of other communities being involved. 00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:15.519 And Vic Masters, who is the master of all these technologies and is a really talented designer, and to the for the website and for the technology supporting the newsletter, has just done amazing work. 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:25.440 And then also Sarah Caton, who you interviewed a couple months ago, has done a marvelous job in in editing a newsletter. 00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:41.839 And so we are starting to use the newsletter, and we have been for a couple of years now, as a place where we can really talk about some of the environmental and climate issues that are important in our town. 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:52.240 And that that sort of raised goes into something that you mentioned earlier about this focus on greenhouse gases. 00:29:52.480 --> 00:30:12.960 Because, and one of the things that I'm passionate about is understanding the role that greenhouse gases plays, and the fact that this the prevailing narrative about climate change, focusing on greenhouse gases, it's true, but it's very partial and it's very misleading. 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:23.599 Over the many centuries, we have undermined or degraded the vegetative environment of all of our ecosystems. 00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:28.000 You mean the forests and the forests, the soil. 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:36.400 The forest, the soil, the plains, the Great Plains, the savannas, and soil health is critical here in Columbia County. 00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:37.519 We have so many farms. 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:38.480 Absolutely. 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:57.279 But what happens is that when the sun's radiation hits the earth, for the 30 million years that the earth's sort of surface evolved, the vegetation and the ecosystems evolved, photosynthesis would would occur, and that does several things that are very important. 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:04.640 First of all, it cools, it takes carbon out of the atmosphere, it and stores it in the soil. 00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:13.680 So and it takes moisture out of the earth or wherever it is, the soil, and releases moisture into the atmosphere that creates future rains. 00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:24.079 We have we have on every continent degraded our ecosystem so much that we do not have the vegetation that we used to have. 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:32.880 We have gotten rid of the ability to take the sun and use it to cool and also add moisture. 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:40.880 So you've got vast areas that are arid, and you've got a reduction of moisture in many in many areas. 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.960 And you so these are creating huge changes in weather. 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:51.440 And that is under underappreciated in terms of what climate policy does. 00:31:51.599 --> 00:32:01.279 Because it and all you have to do is look at any urban area and the urban heat that is created, that's heat that the greenhouse gases hold. 00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:19.359 But no longer is, because in frequently because of human clearing, whether it's for agriculture, for mining, for going over the oath of land. 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:53.200 Anyway, so you actually, people who are deeply involved in a lot of this science uses phrases that sound extreme, like land use drives weather, and and we need to understand that locally our ecosystems, they may be fairly healthy, but many in many areas they don't cool and they're not adding moisture back into the atmosphere. 00:32:53.599 --> 00:33:23.440 We can't cover all of this in depth, obviously, but I

think the main takeaway for people, and this goes back to what I said about the Climate Smart Communities program focusing initially heavily on these greenhouse gas emissions, is that is part of it, but the the problems that we face now are just so complex and so it things like your forest, the water runoff on your land, the the health of your soil, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:40.240 And all of these things relation back to the weather that we're experiencing, whether it's a summer drought or uh a heavy winter snowfall or no snowfall for several years, or worse yet, uh a 10-inch rainfall or 12-inch rainfall all in 24 hours. 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:41.200 It's crazy. 00:33:41.440 --> 00:33:43.599 They know these things are happening more frequently. 00:33:43.839 --> 00:33:50.880 How all that relates back to all of these factors is so complicated that I think it's making people's heads spin. 00:33:51.119 --> 00:34:10.800 And so it does help for us to focus on, hey, we're gonna try and be more resilient in the face of extreme weather events, and we're gonna try and protect our farmers' land, and we're gonna try to protect the green space around us and the air quality around us and things like that. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.119 That's a goal that everybody can get behind. 00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.159 I think that's very true, and and it's very important. 00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:33.119 My take goes a little bit farther in that so much of the land around us is degraded, and we need to look at the many ecosystems that are degraded and how do we restore them. 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.000 For example, there's this huge drop-off of insects. 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:57.920 Yeah, which is affecting farms and affects farms, it affects the bird population, it affects soil, it affects that whole all these inter interrelated food chains and ecosystems are essential for all of these basics about how vegetation works, about how the carbon cycle works, about how the water cycle works. 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:21.519 And you don't have to, it's great to conserve the pristine forest that we have in the uplands, but it's just as important in more settled areas to upgrade the ecological functioning, whether it's on farms, whether it's in your backyard, whether it's in town streets, all of these areas that are degraded, they create heat. 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:31.840 You're talking about as we continue to develop, we end up with more roads, more parking lots, more tar flat roofs on big box stores, et cetera, et cetera. 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:38.800 This is basically the environment that's absorbing heat and then reading it back out in the atmosphere. 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:40.320 And so that's kind of the issue. 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:43.840 And of course, that's all of that is area that's no longer green. 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:45.519 That's very true. 00:35:45.760 --> 00:36:01.039 But the other side of it is that we're missing an opportunity to reverse the degradation and to increase resilience and increase the our ability, the ecosystem's ability to maintain a viable climate. 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:02.079 Okay, great. 00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:04.719 So tell us what's the recipe for doing that. 00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:08.800 What's what this is you're gonna be going to be your hopeful thesis. 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:15.280 Well, you can let me just give some examples of things that are going on in Columbia County that are just wonderful. 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:29.599 If you look at what they've done in Taconic, where this Taconic Talks series of educational meetings, and they have had entomologists, they have done all these wonderful things around the forest, they have a new state, a new town forest. 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:41.119 Yeah, and they're inspiring a lot of their citizens to go out and try and create what you're talking about on their own property, you know, and rewild it or improve the soil health or improve the forest. 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:42.800 Absolutely, absolutely. 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:52.639 And the the Conservancy, the CLC, has does many things to encourage this and working with a lot of towns to restore. 00:36:52.880 --> 00:37:07.119 So it's not just uh reducing greenhouse gases, but it's it's restoring the ecosystems so they can function better and help us maintain a resilient, a resilient environment. 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:09.599 And you still need to do the infrastructure. 00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:21.199 We still we know we're gonna have these torrential rains, and the understanding how rain and ecosystems interact is a lot of it. 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:22.960 Yeah, for the water. 00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:29.599 For the water, because so much of the water that does fall ends up getting in falling back in the river. 00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:38.960 But what we really want is it to sink in into the soil, and that becomes water that plants can use and return to the soil. 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:54.320 And if you look at any of the forest areas, and this is something that's very serious in the Amazon, but everywhere else in the world too, if once you've deforested, you're not putting water back into the atmosphere, and so you're risking erodification. 00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:57.280 You see an example of it with forest fires. 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:19.199 Part of the problem with forest fires is that the air is warmer, but also it's that there's not as much moisture in the air, or there's moisture for condensation, but a lot of that water that comes down goes back into the ocean, and so it doesn't stay, there's not photosynthesis, it's not cooling. 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:27.039 It's breaking up the fundamental ecosystems that maintain a healthy environment. 00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:34.800 So anything we can do at the local level to reverse some of that makes a lot of sense, and you can do that in your backyard. 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:38.559 There's a big movement across the

country to try and do this. 00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:45.519 What we have is a lot of farms and a lot of parking lots and a lot of people's yards and so forth. 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:50.320 And whatever we can do with those together, they all make a difference. 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:55.199 And if you have a hundred thousand quarter acre yards, you've got a a park. 00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:55.760 That's right. 00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:58.159 That's right. 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:09.039 And one of the things that are in our Claver Town plan, our comprehensive plan, is to form a conservation advisory committee. 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:23.920 And within Clemens Fund, we've talked about, we what we really want to be doing is doing a lot more of that kind of conservation and restoration of nature because that is essential to create a resilient community. 00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:24.320 Yeah. 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:32.719 Whether it's insects that then pollinate the farmers' crops or retaining the runoff water so that it doesn't flood a creek or exactly. 00:39:32.960 --> 00:39:40.159 You know, we produce more more green space so that people get that that health that comes from being outdoors in nature. 00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:41.199 Yeah, that's right. 00:39:41.280 --> 00:40:06.559 Anyway, so my thinking for some years has been that when we have a a committee that is actually accomplishing these things, we want to get things like the decarbonization of the town garage done, but we also need to find ways and of reaching a lot more of the community to think about regenerating or restoring the ecosystems. 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:16.400 And that that's where the work that we're on the like the Taconic is done and the Conservancy is doing, and what I hope will come out of our comprehensive plan. 00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:27.679 I think that's one of the most important things that we as a town can do to assure to protect our rural character and to the scenic beauty. 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:48.639 And I think that's the difference between what we've done here with the Climate Smart Program and with the Q this kind of citizen involvement here in Columbia County, as opposed to what I thought was a very narrow focus of the Climate Smart program at the very beginning, where they just were like reduced greenhouse gas emissions. 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:49.280 That's right. 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:51.119 And I think it's much broader now. 00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:52.000 I think so. 00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:53.679 In a sense, it's a new paradigm. 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:59.920 My passion that we really need to get back to understanding that whole picture of being more holistic. 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:13.519 And that's the paradigm that I think is becoming more commonplace, even though it's not it's not promoted in the in the in the in in the in mainstream media. 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:31.119 And the implications of the implications for land use are are quite difficult because what that says

is that if you want to be a good citizen ecologically, you want to be addressing some of these issues. 00:41:31.280 --> 00:41:33.119 And these are complicated issues. 00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:34.719 It's not easy to do that. 00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:41.599 It's not easy for a farmer to transition to a different type of water management on the farm property. 00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:42.079 That's right. 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:42.880 That's right. 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:58.000 And what's interesting also is that, like the how was it, the soil conservation district has programs to help people help landowners and not just farmers address some of these basics of having a healthier ecosystem. 00:41:58.239 --> 00:42:02.159 But anyways, these are need to be a focus of the future. 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:07.840 And the conservancies and the climate advisory councils, the CACs. 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.880 These are things that we can work with and try to get this more balanced approach to building climate resilience. 00:42:15.280 --> 00:42:25.760 Yeah, I think a lot of towns now have created these conservation advisory committees, the CACs, and and Claverick is moving that direction very quickly and so pretty positive. 00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:30.000 And I give you a lot of credit for this for making people sit up and take notice. 00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:37.360 And you know, initially that was a little bit of a battle, but for the first few years, but it's definitely got momentum now. 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:43.840 And it's thank you so much for for contributing in that way, and thanks for talking about it today. 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:55.280 It's a pleasure and it's it's reassuring to go to a c a town board meeting and to to listen to the interchange that we have around many of these issues. 00:42:55.519 --> 00:42:58.400 And it's it's a to me, it's a wonderful thing to see. 00:42:58.480 --> 00:43:13.840 And there's a lot of divisiveness in our country today, and I think it just proves that if you take a a reasonably respectful approach towards each other, we can find ways of broadening these issues, addressing them. 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:24.239 And I appreciate the fact that you are interviewing people like this, doing these podcasts, and and expanding the horizon of our community conversation. 00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:26.960 This is, I think this is a wonderful development. 00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:28.079 Thanks, John. 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:29.199 Good to have you here. 00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.039 It's always fun to see you. 00:43:32.239 --> 00:43:33.519 That was a great conversation. 00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:35.440 I love talking with John Bradley. 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:38.639 He's uh a very thoughtful gentleman. 00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:52.880 And what I really liked out of that the most was a kind of a clarification in my mind of something that I've known for a long time, that the changing weather that we're all experiencing, the droughts, the bigger storms we had in July. 00:43:53.199 --> 00:44:00.239 We had rainfall that was apparently a thousand-year storm in a couple of our surrounding towns. 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:06.400 And here in Cloberk, we were lucky not to get more than the six inches or so that we had to deal with. 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:12.559 But it really doesn't have as much to do with whether we're burning fossil fuels. 00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:13.679 That's part of it. 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:20.239 But what it really has to do with is how are we gonna continue to develop this land? 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:21.599 We have more and more people. 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:22.960 Are we gonna build more houses? 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:24.320 Are we gonna build more stores? 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:25.760 Are we gonna build more roads? 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:32.400 Are we gonna put just put solar fields everywhere and continue to believe that this thing isn't happening? 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:40.320 Or are we gonna try and manage our water runoff better so that we get evaporation and rainfall and the normal cycle? 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:47.440 Are we gonna try to reforest areas that have been deforested or maintain the health of our forests? 00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:54.320 You've heard me talk about this with respect to invasive plants, you've heard me talk about this with respect to deer hunting. 00:44:54.559 --> 00:45:06.559 I have a strong interest in how do we see this countryside around us remain healthy for our lives and the lives of our children and the lives of our grandchildren. 00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:11.519 So that's kind of what this show is always about, and that was why it was great to talk to John today. 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:14.159 Again, this is the Cloverick Podcast. 00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:24.400 All you have to do is Google Cloverick and Podcast because I guarantee you we are still the only podcast with the word Cloverick in the title. 00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:29.199 You can find us on all the platforms as well, Apple, Spotify, etc., etc. 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:29.760 etc. 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:31.360 Do subscribe. 00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:36.320 I'm gonna try to regularize my schedule with dropping these podcasts. 00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:40.480 And I'm thinking about maybe the first Monday of each month. 00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:46.719 So we'll start with this one with John Bradley, which will drop on Monday, November 2nd. 00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:50.880 And hey, just in time for election day, but we're not talking about that. 00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:55.119 I'm gonna try to regularize the schedule so you can find these more frequently. 00:45:55.360 --> 00:45:58.000 Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.