บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep97 Best bits series: How strengths create diverse, engaged and energised teams

actually completing that task, that's likely to be quite low on your strengths list. 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:43.360 And we would refer to that as an underused strength because it's not something that's energizing to you, something that you don't enjoy. 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:49.040 And it requires you to drive your motivation in order to complete that task. 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:58.240 And it's underused because if you need that strength in order to perform and succeed, then it's a gap and therefore is a potential risk. 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:02.000 So, Christian, out of interest, what are your top strengths? 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.600 My top strengths, if I remember rightly. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:10.319 Um should be deeply ingrained into your look at this a while ago, didn't we? 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:11.600 I should be no, shouldn't I? 00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:13.759 Um compassionate was one. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:18.000 Uh was a top strength of mine, a top seven, and enabling. 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:18.560 Okay. 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:20.639 Which makes sense. 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:27.920 Obviously, there's sometimes where I can get a bit too over invested in how people are doing, but I suppose it plays into my strengths as a coach. 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:31.839 Yes, I was gonna say I think it very much matches your role and what you do. 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:33.439 What about yours? 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:34.399 Mine. 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:44.639 Um, so mine are influential, and that one's really about kind of asking questions and showing interest in others, basically being curious and creating connections with people. 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.199 And the other is attentive. 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:54.000 So similar vein, being observant of other people's needs and what they have to say, but also being aware of the impact that I might have on others. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:55.519 But yeah, they definitely ring true. 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:03.040 I definitely again, I think it matches quite well in terms of the role that I'm in and the work that we do all the time. 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:04.079 So yeah. 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:05.680 I think it makes sense, yeah. 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.279 Kind of um constructively nosy, Caitlin, which is good. 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:10.399 Curious. 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:12.399 Literally curious Caitlin. 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:13.519 Curious Caitlin. 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:15.360 Well, we're psychologists, aren't we? 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:16.240 So yeah. 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:18.639 If we weren't curious, there's something would be wrong. 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:19.600 No, exactly. 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.079 I think asking questions is so important. 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:23.040 Right, okay. 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:24.480 So we've got a definition there. 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:26.480 What's the next clip you've got for us? 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:36.639 The next clip from actually the same conversation, same episode, and it's about the topic of strengths versus motivation and are they the same thing? 00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:48.879 Which is quite interesting because we sometimes have people on our workshops who often get confused and then think that, you know, if they're motivated by something, then it must mean that it's a strength of theirs. 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:49.199 Yeah. 00:06:49.439 --> 00:06:52.879 But it's a distinction that trips people up constantly. 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:54.560 Is it the same as motivation? 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:56.160 The answer is no. 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.959 From a psychological term, we differentiate between strengths, motivation. 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.120 They are quite different from one another. 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:12.319 And I know I probably used the word motivation earlier when I was talking about dopamine because that is the reward and motivation transmitter. 00:07:12.560 --> 00:07:20.879 But actually, from a psychological perspective, we clearly differentiate between strengths and motivation and also strengths, motivation, and skill. 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:22.240 Can you elaborate? 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:28.160 Imagine we were to focus on your least preferred strength, Angela, which is meticulous. 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:34.240 And Sarah and I asked you to spend a whole day peer reviewing and proofing reports. 00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:41.439 What will happen is you are likely to feel quite tired by the end of the day because it's not something you necessarily enjoy. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:47.279 But because you're a fabulous employee, thank you very much, you're motivated to do a good job. 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.480 So you want to deliver high-quality work. 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:57.040 So you're motivated to be meticulous, but you're not energized by it and therefore can get depleted. 00:07:57.439 --> 00:08:06.319 But as a result of that practice, because you're motivated, you're actually in truth very skilled at being meticulous, albeit you don't enjoy the experience. 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:08.639 Yeah, I think that resonates with me. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:16.720 I can think of a few tasks that maybe aren't the most energizing because actually they can be quite stressful and lead up to it or things like that. 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:21.439 But I'm motivated to do it because I know that it's going to be good for the company, it's going to be good for the person. 00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:25.839 Depending on what that piece of work is, I know that there's a good reason to do it. 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:36.720 But what I find is that I'll then feel really tired afterwards and I'll feel quite wiped out, versus, you know, I don't know if I choose the example of one-to-one conversations I love. 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:38.879 And so I always feel quite energized after those. 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:40.879 I don't know, Kristen, do you have anything like that? 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:42.639

Yeah, there's just a few examples. 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.399 So networking, I can be quite competent at it. 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.240 Um, I enjoy it sometimes, but it's not something I would jump out of bed to do. 00:08:50.639 --> 00:09:02.320 And if I'm networking for a good period of time and I've I've spoken to lots of people, I can feel quite drained afterwards, even if those conversations have been, you know, enjoyable, they've been interesting. 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:07.360 And then I also really resonated with Angela's meticulous challenge. 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.039 It's not one of my top strengths. 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:15.360 It doesn't mean that I can't be meticulous and sometimes actually pretty good at spotting or doing things like copywriting and proofing. 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:21.679 And if my focus is there, I can be really meticulous, but it's not something that I'm energized by over time. 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:30.320 So if I'm at the desk doing spreadsheets all day, yeah, you're probably not gonna get the best out of me afterwards, and I might need a glass of wine. 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.240 Yeah, I'd be the same. 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.720 Maybe not a glass of wine, maybe some chocolate or something. 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:36.399 Something like that, chocolate as well. 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:37.279 Sugar hit. 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:38.480 Right, okay. 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:40.080 So, what's the next clip? 00:09:40.399 --> 00:09:42.960 The next clip is actually from the same episode. 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.720 We discuss some of the neuroscience around stress. 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:49.120 How do our strengths develop? 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:58.080 So, from a neuroscientific perspective, strengths are created by our brain synapses being nurtured as we develop, learn, and grow. 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:08.399 As our strengths are heavily dependent on environmental factors during development, and as I mentioned, strengths are moving towards more of a state, they can change over time. 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:31.360 And so, as a result of our environment, and as a result of us changing and focusing on new things that we enjoy, we are likely to train ourselves to be more motivated, to be more excited by different activities, and therefore we will release greater levels of dopamine and get excited about the tasks that we enjoy most. 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:49.440 It's funny because that one, Christian, we were just on a workshop earlier, weren't we, with a global kind of engineering firm that we're running a leadership development program for, and we're having a whole conversation around strengths and how the context can really mean that your strengths may change over time, which was making me think about my own experience. 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:58.159 And I would say when I first kind of entered the corporate life, I would say that I was more energized by things like meticulous because you know I was quite used to doing that. 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:01.679 When you come out of uni, you've you you know you're having to proof all your work and that sort of thing. 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:07.440 And so you feel like, you know what, I know what I'm doing here, I'm confident in it, and also I'm energized by it. 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:14.879 But as my career's gone on, you know, I'll still do it because again, I'm motivated to produce a good high quality of work for our clients. 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:25.039 But yeah, now I would be much more energized actually by the networking piece and the strategic thinking and obviously the being influential rather than meticulous. 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:26.639 It's fascinating, that isn't it? 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:37.759 I think that what you said and that snippet that we've just listened to reframes strengths as something that are built and developed, not something you've just had and handed out and then born. 00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:47.440 I think can be really affirming to know that um you know if you can change them, because if you focus on certain strengths over time, as you've just said, then you can develop strengths, can't you? 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:54.080 That builds new brain connections and neurotransmitters, and you get more dopamine from the things you used to find a bit scary. 00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:56.480 So yeah, I think it was really interesting. 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:58.559 Clip supported with the science as well. 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.360 Yeah, we've always got a bit of neuroscience in there, don't we? 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:02.720 Always a little bit, yeah. 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:08.639 So let's shift from strengths on their own to how they, I suppose, sit alongside personality. 00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.039 We've got on this clip two different guests. 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:17.279 Uh we've got Amanda Potter speaking to one of our guests, Stuart Desson of Luminous Spark. 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:24.960 And they talk about the same question, but I don't think either of them would actually say it's fully settled, but um it was interesting nonetheless. 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:40.080 I see strengths as a really critical part of our personality, and if we are going to be purposeful in our lives and make sort of conscious choices, choosing to focus on our strengths is uh an incredibly sensible thing to do. 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:41.360 So that's kind of my take. 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:43.120 I don't know what you make of that, Amanda. 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:56.480 I probably have because I've wanted to differentiate between strengths and personality to help our customers, I have always referred to a continuum and I always think about it in terms of state and trait. 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:07.679 And what I would do is I would put resilience, emotional intelligence on the state end because it's rapidly changeable, and that triggering can happen in using your language in a moment. 00:13:07.840 -->

00:13:16.080 And so my emotions can change rapidly depending on what's happening around me, versus personality, which I would argue it's the other end, which is trait. 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:30.080 And I put strengths in the middle because I would argue that strengths, whilst they are not as rapidly changing, they are more evolving and they are more responsive to other choices we make, the decisions we make in the environment we're in. 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:34.080 So yeah, I think that kind of reinforces what Amanda was saying earlier. 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:36.240 But I think it definitely does come in the middle. 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:42.720 And I think, again, just reflecting on my own experience, there are definitely some strengths that I've had that have been pretty consistent over time. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:48.159 But as I said, there are others that, depending on the context and as my career's progressed, they have changed. 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:50.480 Do you have any reflections on that one, Christian? 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.399 When I think about my strengths, I think they've broadly stayed the same. 00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:14.000 But it's a question I think that we get with almost all delegates in our workshops at a point where when they look at their profile, if they've done it a second time, if they did it a few years ago, then um so many people who have noticed that while it broadly stays the same, there's a strength or two that has shifted. 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:16.000 It's either gone up or it's gone down. 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:26.480 And then when you ask them why that is, it's because they've changed role or because they chose to focus or to prioritize that strength because they knew it was really crucial to their role at the time. 00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:31.519 And then lo and behold, they find that their strengths profile shifts to reflect that need. 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:33.360 So it's fascinating. 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:41.120 What I see out in the field supports what Amanda says and Stuart discuss in the podcast that strengths can shift over time. 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:46.320 So the less stable personality, you know, not as changeable as resilience. 00:14:47.200 --> 00:15:10.960 An interesting one that I've seen as well with people I've been working with is when people have gone from kind of more corporate being kind of employed in that environment, but then they go independent and they're self-employed, that can often shift their strengths in terms of what they need to kind of dial up in that new context versus when they were working in kind of a larger organization and a in in a team and all those sorts of things. 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:13.759 So it's a very interesting conversation to have, isn't it? 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:15.759 When people go through those life shifts. 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:17.120 It really is, isn't it? 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:17.360 Yeah. 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:32.000 Some yeah, in-house, you know, HR directors who then decide to go freelance and then suddenly need to turn up the strengths that help them to sell and to promote themselves and to uh have the commercial conversations, which can feel a little bit uncomfortable for them initially. 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:33.279 Fascinating. 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.639 Let's get back now to episode 28. 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:41.279 And this clip is on the increasing use of strength-based assessment. 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:52.720 What's amazing is that 10 years ago, 73% of Fortune and FTSE 100 organizations were using strengths-based approaches for assessment. 00:15:52.960 --> 00:16:00.000 But now it's reported that 90% of those organizations use strengths-based assessments for assessment for recruitment. 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:07.360 But so actually, strengths have overtaken personality, which is what I expected to see happen and actually is happening. 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:16.639 So more organizations are now using strengths-based approach assessments for recruitment globally than they are using personality for assessment. 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:37.039 But your point, Angelo, is that some organizations get very embedded with product because they get embedded with their test publisher, with their consulting partner, they get a lot of people trained on those tools and they're unable to shift away or feel like they're unable to shift away from their very well-established personality products. 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:42.960 But actually, I think there's a real place for strengths and there's a place for personality in organizations. 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:44.639 That is a big stat. 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:45.919 We love a good stat, don't we? 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:47.039 It's a stat, yeah. 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:51.039 That's um it's a good one just before the pricing slide and the proposal. 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:59.679 Just kind of it doesn't mean, does it, that uh that stat around sort of 90% of organizations using a strength-based approach. 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:03.039 That said doesn't mean they're necessarily using strength tools, does it? 00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:17.200 But it's that approach that's generally gone away from the focus on development or development gaps and looking more at how to create environments, encourage people to do better at the things that they're already energized by. 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:18.880 But I think there's nuance here, isn't there? 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.000 We were actually at a development programme the other day together, weren't we? 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:43.920 We were with a big client, and actually, interestingly, one of the HR leaders gave a talk on development and talent selection, talent development, and talked about the importance of balancing sort of a strength-based approach with still kind of particularly early in somebody's career, looking at what you're not so good at and actually really focusing on that as well. 00:17:44.000

--> 00:17:48.000 So it's not a simple just play to your strengths and then everything will be fine. 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:49.359 I think is a balance there. 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:53.759 Yeah, it's funny, that was literally going through my brain as well as we were listening to that clip. 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:54.799 Does it surprise you? 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:58.640 Because it Amanda said that strength is overtaking personality, obviously. 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:00.079 Does that surprise you? 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:01.599 It does surprise me. 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:06.799 I think there's a lot of organizations that have uh they're still using personality profiles. 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.880 You know, we have clients, don't we, that for example, use it in combination, don't they? 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.240 Actually, combination, don't they, with for recruitment or for development. 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:19.839 They still see the value very much so of strength-based approach to complement those methods. 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:33.759 But I think importantly, when they start using strengths-based assessments or strengths tools for development, the advantage of doing that or using those compared to some personality um approaches is that the world's changing. 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:35.200 People need to adapt, don't they? 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.279 And people need to quickly develop. 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:43.039 And knowing what your personality style is, I think is only one part of the equation. 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:48.480 We can develop our strengths, can't we, over a short period of time sometimes if we focus on the right things. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.240 Yeah, it's an extra data point. 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:59.920 And I think the thing is that I love about strengths is obviously it's used in that kind of individual setting for development and coaching, but also from a kind of teams lens as well. 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:07.119 I'm sure there'll be a clip we'll play in a moment about cognitive diversity and how you can leverage the different strengths that exist in a team. 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:13.279 But yeah, I do quite like how it's got both those two avenues that you can explore and go down when talking about the topic. 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:14.640 Yeah, definitely. 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:19.519 So the next clip is actually a third clip from episode 25. 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:25.279 So either it was an unusually rich hour or we just didn't have the heart to cut any more of it. 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:26.640 So let's see. 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:36.880 So for organizations that are looking to implement a strengths-based approach, can we use strengths for recruitment to select the right candidates for an organization? 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.839 Well, the word right is the one that worries me in your statement, Angela. 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:44.400 So the right strengths is a problem. 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:51.440 Because yes,

you can use strengths for recruitment, but no, you cannot select the right strengths. 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.640 And the reason I say that is you should never profile match. 00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:04.960 Profile matching is when you identify the strengths in the team or the organization that you would like to recruit for, and then you actively recruit people with those strengths. 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:12.319 If you do this, what you're going to do is contribute to a homogeneous or homophily culture where everyone is the same. 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.920 So I fundamentally disagree with profile matching. 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:27.759 I fundamentally agree with the unique individual, identifying what someone's core and unique or signature strengths are, and then deciding how well that person will fit into the team. 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:35.759 Do they have strengths that will complement the team and add greater value because they are diverse to the team that you have already? 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:36.799 Well, there we go. 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:39.759 That was actually quite a nice segue into that diversity piece. 00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:40.880 It was, wasn't it? 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:41.119 Yeah. 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:46.079 And we talk about profile matching, which is a conversation, isn't it, that we've had over the years. 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.039 Yeah, Amanda feels quite strongly about it, doesn't she? 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:49.839 Yeah, she does. 00:20:49.920 --> 00:21:04.799 And it's um it could be quite tempting and understandable in many ways for an organization to want to use a tool like ours to support a hiring process and to support the efficiency and I suppose speed up the process and to simplify it. 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:19.599 But uh yeah, as we heard in that clip, it's not so much about looking at your existing team and then profiling what strengths or top strengths that team has, and then trying to only recruit the people with those exact strengths or that score in that strengths profile. 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:30.480 There's a risk there of over the years that team becomes, as Amanda says, just homogenous and lacks the diversity and they don't innovate anymore. 00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:51.359 And we've had countless situations, haven't we, or examples where it's felt nice and harmonious in the beginning for people to have the same strengths or to have the same personality types, but you lose the innovation, the challenge, those nuances over time, and that can have an impact on the success of the team and how they adapt in the future. 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:57.680 As you say, it's it's always kind of a conversation that we have a lot with our clients in terms of what's best to do. 00:21:58.000 --> 00:21:58.559 It is. 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:04.559 When I think about How my father recruits people for his um much smaller bathroom. 00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:06.079 Getting personal there. 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:12.400 Well, can I say I hope he's not listening, but he probably will listen, but I don't think he'll have very thick skin. 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:19.279 But I think in in the past, um, not only would he not use any personality or strength-based assessments at all. 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:22.880 I mean, it's a small business, he would ask just a few questions. 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.920 And one of those was, Do you like rock music? 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:27.519 And so he's a drummer. 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:32.880 So if they said yes to that, then it'd have a nice conversation and then they'd probably get the job. 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:39.759 We've come a bit of a way from those kinds of couple of questions, and then yeah, you've got the job. 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:41.680 We have come a long way from then. 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:43.839 So, what have we got next, Christian? 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:51.039 We have got Stuart Desson talking again in episode 76 on actually a very similar theme. 00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:58.240 So, again, to we talk about profile matching and the risk of profile matching, a little bit around why that can be an issue. 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:05.759 One risk of profile matching is that you end up certainly in leadership roles, homing in on that sort of stereotype. 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:19.759 And the risk of that, even if you can gather data that can show that in some circumstances that gets good outcomes, if we do that consistently over time, we will clone our culture and we will lose the diversity in our leadership style. 00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.160 So I'm 100% with you, Amanda. 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:31.839 If you're using psychometrics in this area around talent development, a really important factor is to do the opposite of that and actually look at well, who's in the team now? 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.920 If other people are joining the team, what does that do to our diversity? 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:40.240 And one thing I always like to do when I work with a team is have a look. 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.759 Has somebody been recruiting in the image of the boss? 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:45.759 Have we got a clone team? 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.000 And that's normally a huge challenge. 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:58.400 It will unbalance the culture, it will result in in sort of mini me's occurring where people are trying to unconsciously replicate the boss or what they think's need in the culture. 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:03.200 And again, I'd like to see what I do as kind of the antidote to that. 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:08.960 I mean, I have had in the past clients bring me or Lumina in and say, something's gone a bit wrong here. 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:16.400 We've been using the psychometrics, and we're 10 years down the line, and we seem to have a sort of mono one-dimensional culture. 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:18.720 Can you help us understand what's going on? 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:27.519 And I've seen, you know, I won't name the

organization, but one large organization I work with, they were using like a four-quadrant model for it. 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:37.759 And they kind of got into everybody at the senior level was kind of driven, focused, didn't express feelings, and they kind of made a science out of saying that's what we want. 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:41.200 And then a number of years down the line, they were saying something strange has happened. 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:46.240 We've lost, we used to be so empowered, and we used to have lots of innovation, and it's all disappeared. 00:24:46.559 --> 00:25:04.720 And the really curious thing about that was it was staggeringly obvious to me what happened, and I got all their data and discussed it with them, and they're H people were on board, but it was really hard to persuade some of the other senior people to change because they'd say things like, but we like it like this, it's fast-paced, it's just you know, that's how we are. 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:11.200 They kind of got attached to the culture that they were part of, and then it's pretty hard to change it. 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:13.680 Yeah, you're almost into family therapy at this point. 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:14.240 Yeah. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:15.599 Well, there you go. 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:17.519 I think that's a pretty good example, isn't it? 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:18.319 Right. 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:20.640 Okay, so let's move on then. 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:22.960 What's the next clip that we're gonna be listening to about? 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:29.839 The next clip, um, yeah, we hear from Simon Rogerson, who's the CEO and founder of Octopus Group. 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.319 I think many of us might even be customers of Octopus Energy. 00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.480 So uh Simon is really passionate about culture fit. 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:46.400 He talks about the concept of radiators versus drains and uh cognitive diversity, which we've just been talking about. 00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:48.640 So let's have a listen to that. 00:25:49.279 --> 00:26:03.519 Thinking about the role that you've played within the organizations around culture, because the reason we've invited you to talk to us today is I'm very excited about the environment of an organization and the culture we create in an organization. 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:09.440 And from our conversation, Simon, you're very clear about what works in terms of culture and what doesn't work. 00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:10.960 Would you mind elaborating? 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:18.000 I think great business, building a great business, it's a difficult thing to do, but at the heart of it, great business is simply about how you make people feel. 00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:21.359 The only lesson anyone needs to take away is just about how you make people feel. 00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:25.200 And the people I'm talking about there are your employees and they're your customers. 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:27.680 And behavior comes entirely from values. 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:35.279 So it comes from the kind of people you hire, kind of the great big things you choose to do in an organization and the tiny little actions of every single person working there. 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:38.720 The first 500 people we hired, I interviewed every single person. 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.759 I probably spent half of my time for the first three, four, five years of the company interviewing people. 00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:47.200 So I got pretty good at working people out because it is about behavior. 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:51.680 I say, you know, I'm I'm the group chief executive, but actually I think more than anything, I'm kind of group antibody. 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.400 The culture of the organization was coolest when it was 30 people. 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.839 Now across the group we have eight, nine thousand people working here. 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:01.359 And my job is to make sure that decline in culture is as shallow as possible. 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:05.200 And that comes down to the people you hire, the people you reward, the people you promote. 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:07.279 You're either a radiator or you're a drain. 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:10.400 And if you're a drain, you cannot and will not work at Octobus. 00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:14.400 And just recognizing when you, if you're really good at interviewing people, you probably get seven out of ten people right. 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:20.160 So the three you're gonna get wrong, you need to do something about that because it's in their interest, it's in my interest, it's in the company's interests. 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:23.519 But you know, culture comes down to people more than anything else. 00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:25.599 But again, this is what businesses get so wrong. 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:33.279 You choose your friends in life, and people have, you know, I don't know what a circle of trust is, probably six, seven people in the way most people trust, and they have a wide network of friends. 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:44.960 But you try and name the companies you would be friends with or with fit within that circle, it's almost non-existent, which is so weird because it's just a collection of humans coming together and suddenly you put a corporate wrap around them and no one trusts them anymore. 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:46.480 It doesn't make any sense. 00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.559 I think business is fundamentally broken. 00:27:48.880 --> 00:28:06.079 And the point you've made there about radiators and drains, given our research and thinking around cognitive diversity, is a really important one because in some environments we know that I might be an energizer for somebody, and other situations with other groups, someone might find me irritating or I could be a drain for them. 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:07.680 So it's about the right culture. 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:09.839 It doesn't mean that anybody's good or bad.

00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:12.799 It just means about finding the right fit for you, isn't it? 00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:17.599 I have an issue with having too much fit because of the lack of homogeneity. 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:32.880 So the importance of having really good values and real clarity about what's important with an organization, yet at the same time looking for a diverse workforce who think differently, who are going to challenge each other, who are going to ask you questions is important too. 00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:38.000 So, what's your view on cognitive diversity and the importance of bringing in a diverse workforce, Simon? 00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:43.839 So just a reaction to one thing you said actually first, because I agree, people will interpret radiation and drains differently. 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:48.240 But one point I would make is there's a big difference between skepticism and cynicism. 00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:49.759 Fine with skeptics, right? 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:54.640 When we're trying to build businesses all the time, and that means we make loads of mistakes and don't always get things right, and that's understandable. 00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.000 But the cynicism's not okay because it's wired differently in people. 00:28:58.079 --> 00:28:59.279 So I would make that point. 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:00.400 I think there is a difference there. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.720 In terms of diversity generally, so diversity for businesses and business leaders is one of these mega buzzwords. 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.240 So I look at some of the big quota companies, and there's diversity where I must tick certain boxes. 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:17.359 So half my board must be women, and half my board must be men, and then I mean all kinds of levels of diversity. 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:24.559 I think by a mile, the most important form of diversity is diversity of thought as to how people think about things. 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:28.000 And that comes from different life experiences and different backgrounds. 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:37.759 If I hired a man and a woman who both went to private school and they both read natural sciences at Cambridge, and they both have the same tutors, there's a very high likelihood they will think in a very similar way. 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:47.519 So diversity of thought is about different life experiences and what you bring, and that I think is what makes our businesses and teams function in a kind of high performance way. 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:48.559 Great. 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.480 I mean, there's a lot to unpack in that one. 00:29:50.720 --> 00:29:51.839 Yeah, there is, isn't there? 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.240 I actually recorded that one with um Amanda and Simon, and it was such a great conversation. 00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:58.960 And you can really see his passion for his business come through. 00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.759 It's quite inspiring. 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:05.039 And I think the

beginning where he mentions that he interviewed, you know, all 500 people, says it all really. 00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:06.480 It was interesting, wasn't it? 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:12.160 There was a bit of tension initially, I think, in terms of how you think about radiators and drains. 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:25.839 So when Simon was talking about, you know, you're either a radiator or a drain, I think Amanda took it in another direction when she talked about effectively we can all be radiators and drains in different contexts. 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:44.000 And so that again aligns to some of our work on strengths where we're energized in certain environments when we have a chance to do certain things, but we actually and also might be quite draining or uh challenging for other people who have a completely different approach, thinking style, and set of strengths than we do. 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.039 So yeah, I think the whole thing you're either a drain or a radiator, not completely sure about that. 00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:57.519 I did find it interesting that then Simon later talked about there is a distinction between cynicism and being sceptical. 00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.279 So if you're cynic, then you're closing down the opportunities and not being open to difference. 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.839 And I think I would a closed mindset, isn't it? 00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:06.160 Really? 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:07.599 Yeah, absolutely. 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:08.160 Yeah. 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:11.200 The other thing they touched on was the cognitive diversity piece. 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:22.640 So for anyone who is not necessarily aware of cognitive diversity, is that diversity of thought and how he was mentioning around not having clones of people that all came from kind of Russell group unis or private schools and things like that. 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:42.079 And a number of our clients that we've worked with over the years, there's one in particular that come to mind, that kind of redefined their recruitment process to take out some of those existing biases that were in there, so then they could get people from kind of all different walks of life, but really to bring in that kind of diversity of thought. 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.279 I don't know if you've had any similar experiences. 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:54.559 I think when Simon was discussing diversity of thought coming from different life experiences and backgrounds, I agree with that. 00:31:54.720 --> 00:32:03.279 And also what we see that diversity or cognitive diversity can really be encouraged and come about through different sets of strengths. 00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:08.960 So when you've got a team with different strengths, it means it's very likely they'll be thinking differently. 00:32:09.039 --> 00:32:16.720 So their cognitive processes will be different, the way they solve problems will be different, the way they challenge, the way they come up with solutions. 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:28.559 So that in itself, you've got a team with different strengths, you're likely to get cognitive diversity through strengths as well as individual differences and personal experiences, backgrounds. 00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.720 So yeah, I found that really fascinating. 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:50.160 This next clip is also a conversation with Simon, Caitlin, and this bit's about understanding vulnerability, the idea that we can't be good at everything, and that's actually okay, which, if you think about it, sort of quietly undermines about half the competency frameworks currently sitting in share drives all over the world. 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.359 Yeah, we'll let that one go for today, globally, literally. 00:32:53.440 --> 00:32:56.480 But uh, yeah, let's hear about what he says about vulnerability. 00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.559 I talk personally, I think men are a lot worse at this than women. 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:09.920 But you know, up until I was probably mid-30s, I used to carry this little shield around with me, which would hide everything that was really broken about me or bust. 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:14.160 And I'd use that shield to make sure no one could see what was going on because it made me feel vulnerable. 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:17.680 Eventually I got to a stage when I was like, whatever, probably mid-30s, late 30s, right? 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:18.480 I'll just screw this. 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.359 I can't be bothered to. 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:24.240 I'll just drop the shield and I'll just tell you this is who I am and waltz and all stuff I'm good at, stuff I'm not good at. 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:25.039 And you know what? 00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:26.160 The right people want to help you. 00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:31.920 And anyone who chooses to use that against you is just a not really nice person, and you shouldn't do business with them, you shouldn't employ them, you shouldn't work with them. 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.920 And it's creating that level of, again, trust and team environment. 00:33:36.079 --> 00:33:48.160 Normally, vulnerability is a massive sign of strength, especially from a leader, and the old school management and old school companies do not get that, and that is really bad, right? 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:57.599 I cannot build a high performance team if you don't have vulnerability because I need to know what I'm dealing with across the whole team, and that needs to come from me as the example, and you need to be open with people. 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:00.720 And also get over the fact that um all humans are flawed. 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:08.079 I don't mention last time actually, the way the best question you can ask someone on a first date is can you tell me exactly in which way you are screwed up, please? 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:08.400 Right? 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:12.960 Because that's at the heart, that's at the heart of it, but you know, if everyone dances around the edges. 00:34:13.199

--> 00:34:13.920 How brilliant. 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.960 I think that's one definitely for the notebook, then for those people who are just about to go on a first date. 00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:20.320 In what way are you flawed? 00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:25.440 I wonder if it's something we should be asking at work because the reality is we are bringing ourselves to work. 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:27.840 You're right, we are all fundamentally flawed. 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:29.199 I've got some brilliant gaps. 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:34.400 We sent an email out inviting everybody to an event that the date had passed last week. 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:38.239 So I did not spot on that email that the date was wrong. 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:43.519 And so I got so many emails from people saying I really wanted to go, but apparently it's already happened. 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:50.079 And so then I had to send out a message saying, by the way, I'm sure everybody knows that meticulous is my least preferred strength. 00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:51.280 And I'm very sorry. 00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:54.960 But I got lovely, lovely chats back from everyone saying, at least you're humble. 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:56.880 So, you know, that's the truth. 00:34:56.960 --> 00:34:58.079 I'm not brilliant at everything. 00:34:58.159 --> 00:35:03.440 In the fact I'm pretty terrible at some things, but my team pick up the pieces, thank goodness. 00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:05.760 I love it, it's that ownership, isn't it? 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:07.199 When you do make a mistake. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:16.000 But I mean, most importantly, from that clip, I think for all those single people out there, I hope you've taken notes about that key question that you should be asking on your next date. 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:18.000 The very first question, right? 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:25.920 And if they say something like, I work too hard or I'm just a perfectionist, then just groan and then leave them to it. 00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:27.599 Over you strengths. 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:29.760 But vulnerability is talked about, isn't it? 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.239 Um, you know, more and more now, even in the world of work. 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:37.119 So Brene Brown talks about vulnerability and the power of vulnerability and bravery. 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:46.400 But I think yeah, I found that really fascinating that Simon would mention that word in particular, but I think it changes the relationship people have with you as a leader. 00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:55.840 It helps you shift from being a leader who's someone who has to have all the answers to someone people actually trust to follow to create psychological safety, doesn't it? 00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:59.280 When they admit mistakes and they acknowledge that they don't know everything. 00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:00.159 Yeah. 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:02.559 So what was our next clip, Caitlin? 00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:05.119 Did you want to uh introduce this next one? 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:13.760 So the next one, yeah, is actually from Joe X, also known as the Body Coach, and it follows a similar theme, to be honest with you. 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:16.880 He also talks about vulnerability from kind of his lens. 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:17.840 Let's go for it. 00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:19.440 Ready to do some burpees. 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:26.239 I'd love to take us back to something else that you said in one of your acceptance speeches, actually, Joe. 00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:33.599 One of the areas of research that I'm particularly passionate about is the concept of cognitive diversity, which is how people think. 00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:44.719 And so many of our clients have a fixed mindset about how certain experiences or qualifications would be suitable for their organizations when selecting and growing talent. 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:58.960 So, what do you think organisations get from bringing people into their organizations that are not from a traditional background or don't necessarily come from an Ivy League or a Russell group top-tier university? 00:36:59.199 --> 00:37:11.039 Well, I think, you know, in my experience, some of the most amazing, caring, loving, like creative, ambitious people have had challenging upbrings, especially amongst my circle of friends, because I grew up in a cancellor state, you know, we were on benefit. 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.719 You know, I wasn't an aspirational child. 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:14.960 I I didn't think I was going to amount to much, really. 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:27.679 And I had people around me saying, you know, things like, you know, you're from that family on the estate, or you're a wrong and he's a naughty kid, or you're gonna end up like a junk, you're gonna be a junkie like your old man, all these kind of things that I heard as a kid, and you know, your mum's an unfit mother, and she was an amazing mum. 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:31.920 She had us so young, and she was I'm a product of her parenting, so I think she's been amazing. 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:43.920 And um, I think you shouldn't judge people based just on their education and where they've kind of studied and what kind of courses they've been on because you're gonna end up with a group of people that are all the same with the same kind of mindset and maybe don't have the you know the resilience to overcome adversity. 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:51.360 I think with for me personally, like I love looking around at my organization and a body coach and seeing a really diverse range of people who all bring something different to the table. 00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:55.920 One thing me and Nikki are we always talking about this, we're a very sensitive leadership team. 00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.079 We cry in front of our staff all the time. 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:04.480 It's create a culture where actually, you know what, anyone can talk about anything, and I think that's a really beautiful asset for

of us. 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:10.880 You know, we're not embarrassed to be vulnerable and show our weaknesses, like we're learning on the job, and everyone around us helps us achieve our goal. 00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:15.679 So I think it's only a positive thing, and I think, yeah, like people should be given an opportunity to prove themselves. 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:18.239 Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it, Joe? 00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.239 Which I think we know he's quite an emotional person by the sounds of it. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:27.599 And I think, but vulnerability is one of those things that I think is quite misunderstood, isn't it? 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:35.440 So I think you can listen to that clip and then sort of presume that, okay, that means do I need to overshare or sort of be emotional all the time. 00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:36.880 It's not about that, is it? 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:42.719 It's about being honest in ways that maybe can help make your team feel stronger and understand you better. 00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.719 I think it builds trust, I think, and it signals trust when you can be open. 00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:54.960 I think it's like with anything, you know, how can you take something and make it productive and a productive conversation or a productive inspirational thing? 00:38:55.280 --> 00:39:03.760 It's making me think of lots of conversations we have around authenticity, and there's that debate around it because actually you want to be able to show up and be your authentic self at work, of course. 00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:13.360 But at the same time, if someone's authenticity is turning up and shouting and screaming, that's not necessarily productive, so there has to be kind of boundaries to it. 00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:14.400 Absolutely. 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.280 Okay, great. 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:17.679 Well Yeah, we've got another clip, haven't we? 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:19.199 Our last snippet, I believe. 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.280 Our last one, yeah. 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:23.760 So let's get that up for you. 00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:28.400 And I do think it goes back to that point about do what you love as well. 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:31.440 If you really, really hate running, don't run. 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:32.239 Do something. 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:34.880 I mean, like you say, the hit sessions are fantastic. 00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:36.960 I love them, and I also love bells. 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:43.119 So I wonder if it is something about don't try and flog yourself, do something that actually is going to bring you a little bit of joy. 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:43.679 Definitely. 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:44.559 Do you know what I've just done? 00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:46.159 So I'm 37 years old now. 00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.719 When I was 15, I was a really big roller skate. 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:49.920 I love rollerblading, right? 00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:52.320 I'd you know, be grinding, doing the half pipes. 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:56.639 So my friend, when he had he had a day off and he went to the skate park, and I was really inspired. 00:39:56.719 --> 00:40:02.400 So I've gone out and bought some rollerblades, and I was rollerbaiting around my kitchen last yesterday, and I was rollerbaiting in the in the garden. 00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:03.199 I was loving it. 00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:04.079 I felt young again. 00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:05.519 I felt and then I was really out of breath. 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.079 I was sweating, I was like, this is exercise, this is fun. 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:14.880 And I think it's always good to tap into those things that you might have done as a teenager or as a child that you didn't necessarily think was fun anymore, but it will, it'll make you smile. 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:22.000 And it's I think sometimes the joy of movement isn't just about being on a treadmill in a static position or in a gym, like it can be so much more than that. 00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:28.480 And I think whatever movement you enjoy, it could be skating, it could be climbing, it could be joining a tennis club, whatever it may be. 00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:29.920 You've just got to keep trying different things. 00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:30.719 Go, you know what? 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:33.679 I'm looking forward to next Monday night when I do tennis with the girls or whatever. 00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:36.559 And then you've got your sport, and then you've got your exercise. 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:38.000 Great tip, isn't it? 00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:44.639 To uh sort of bring some joy into your life by going back to the things that brought you excitement and joy in the first place. 00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:46.000 What is it for you, Caitlin? 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.400 So you want to do some uh some half pipes. 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:50.480 Half pipes, what's that? 00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.840 Joe mentioned grinding and half pipes. 00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.320 Oh, that was part of the roller skating. 00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:57.360 Absolutely, yeah. 00:40:57.519 --> 00:40:59.440 Right skating, yeah. 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:01.679 So I used to love skateboarding. 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:04.960 Um I think skateboards have got a bit faster and smaller these days. 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:09.360 So I think if I stood on one, I would literally break like about a couple of different bones in my body. 00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:10.079 You know what? 00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:13.039 Growing up, I was a bit of a tomboy because I had two older brothers. 00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.599 So I was a bit of a rollerblader, skateboarder. 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:17.199 I just wanted to copy what they were doing. 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:18.480 So yeah. 00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:19.920 Yeah, go back and do that. 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:21.679 Get back to the half pipes. 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:22.960 But you know what? 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:37.199 Listening back to Joe there, what strikes me and we think about strengths is we know that the research consistently shows that people who use their strengths regularly tend to be more engaged, perform better, are more resilient, and as a result of that can experience higher well-being. 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:46.239 So Joe's advice about doing what you love, and in our words, doing what gives you energy, isn't just an inspirational thing, but it actually has quite a strong evidence base behind it. 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.719 So perhaps, you know, that was our last clip. 00:41:48.880 --> 00:42:02.320 But I think maybe we can leave on a reflective note and actually pose a question to our listeners and maybe ask yourself, what was the last thing you did where you completely lost track of time? 00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:11.280 Or alternatively, what conversations leave you feeling excited rather than feeling exhausted, or what work activities leave you feeling excited versus exhausted? 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:17.280 And then that's kind of often clues to where your strengths might lie if that's something that you are curious about. 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:19.119 I love those questions, Caitlin. 00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:21.679 I think we should all reflect on those. 00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:22.239 Fantastic. 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:23.599 I've enjoyed the conversation. 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:27.440 So um that's it for our best bits on strength. 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:34.800 So if any of these particular snippets were interesting for you, we would recommend to go back and listen to the full episodes. 00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:45.679 There's links in our show notes, aren't there, along with probably quite a few hours of us contradicting each other at length and then saying, as all the best psychologists do, it depends. 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:47.199 We don't do that. 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:49.039 We do sometimes. 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:50.880 Um maybe it's just me. 00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:51.760 No, no. 00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:55.039 Well, thank you so much, as always, for listening. 00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:01.599 We hope you enjoyed this episode, and we hope you come back for more and listen to some of our ones that are coming out in the future. 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.519 So there will be some more best bits as we lead up to our hundredth episode. 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.280 So we hope you enjoy.