บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Ep 102 Some Feedback on Feedback Culture...

talking about, what is the other question we should be asking? 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:22.399 I think the question we shouldn't be asking is do our people know how to give feedback? 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:28.000 And the question we should be asking is, do our people feel safe enough to give feedback? 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:31.360 So I think it's actually both questions rather than one or the other. 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.079 Do they know how to and do they feel safe to? 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:36.399 Because they require quite different interventions. 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:44.240 So then if someone doesn't feel safe but then still gives feedback, well, as you said, I don't know, it it can land not so well. 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.600 I imagine that's where it can go probably the most wrong. 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:49.519 How do you see that happening? 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:56.959 Yeah, I've seen it a few times actually, and I actually can experience it in myself even when I'm uncomfortable and I've seen it in others. 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:58.720 We can sometimes jump in. 00:04:58.959 --> 00:05:02.079 We know my resilience risks are impulsive, impatient. 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:06.160 Most people who listen to this pod regularly know those are my resilience risks. 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:12.560 So that will mean that in those situations, I might be quite blunt, for example, or I might be very direct. 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:15.040 That might be my risk under pressure. 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:21.439 For someone else, it might be that they're very submissive or they're very apologetic, or it's probably more me, other end of this. 00:05:22.319 --> 00:05:23.279 It's interesting, isn't it? 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:23.839 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.399 And another one might be that they dismiss it. 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.439 I didn't come up with this feedback, I don't necessarily agree with it. 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.920 So they take away the accountability for it. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:32.160 Yeah. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:33.680 Or another one could be aggressive. 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:34.800 You know, just get on with it. 00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:35.600 You know, just do it. 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:36.879 I can't believe you're not doing this. 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:41.040 So there's a lot of ways in which you could deal with feedback which are unhelpful. 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:41.680 Yeah. 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:44.079 We mentioned interpersonal risk. 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.839 What does that actually mean in practice? 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:47.040 What are people afraid of? 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.920 So interpersonal risk is really the fundamental of psych safety. 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:59.759 And Amy Edmondson, when she talks about the naming of psych safety, she's very clear that fundamentally all of psych safety is all about facing into interpersonal risk. 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:12.399 But actually, the David Rock Scarf model

is quite helpful here because it has a neuroscience basis, which we know, and it maps really practically to how people experience risk and fear. 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:21.519 And Scarf stands for, those of you who haven't heard of it before, it stands for status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness. 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.519 And feedback can threaten each of these simultaneously. 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:28.959 But I could give you an example of a few just to bring it to life if you like. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:29.759 Okay for it. 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:32.000 So, for example, status. 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:38.319 Imagine, Caitlin, you had to give me some feedback and you were worried about it. 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:44.000 You might be thinking, well, what will that feedback say about me and my status in the organization? 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:45.360 How will Amanda perceive me? 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.480 If I have to give Amanda feedback, how will she perceive me as a result of this? 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:51.439 Will she still see me as competent and credible? 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:54.319 Will she question me as a result of this feedback? 00:06:54.480 --> 00:07:00.319 Because this is about giving, you know, worrying about how giving that feedback, how it will make you be seen. 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:07.360 It's just an interesting one in itself there, because I think it can be looked at, obviously, we're talking about it in a negative way because it's triggering us to feel uncomfortable. 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:13.759 So it's me thinking, if I deliver this badly, you're gonna think less of me and not so competent. 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:18.720 On the other hand, though, if we're talking about the positives from that, is it could go the other way. 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:21.360 And you think, you know what, I really respect her for doing that. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:22.720 You know, that's got courage. 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:24.560 For being courageous, for being brave. 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:26.000 Yes, totally agree. 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:27.759 We often go to the negative, don't we? 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:28.480 But you're all right. 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:34.399 If you handle it well, if you've got the skill as well as the environment, then of course it's the perfect cocktail. 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:40.399 Your first instinct is probably gonna be, oh, I don't want to do it because I don't want to look silly or whatever. 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:45.519 But then you have to be able to say, but if it goes well, this is potentially gonna be the outcome. 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:47.360 So let's try and aim for that. 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:48.879 Yeah, think positively. 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:50.639 Another one might be certainty. 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:59.600 So if you are giving me that feedback and it goes well or not so well, what does that mean for your future, for your role in the organization, and so on? 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:01.759 Will it change how you're being treated? 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:06.240 And then relatedness, will it change our connection, either positively or negatively? 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:15.360 So the David Rock scarf model really works actually for thinking about the implications of how we feel about giving feedback and receiving feedback. 00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.759 And I think what I quite like about the model as well is that you know it's gonna be different for everyone. 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:22.079 Some people might experience a few of those. 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.560 What I might experience might be different to you, Amanda. 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.160 So for me, I think relatedness is probably the one which holds me back. 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:32.080 Because I'll tend to worry, is this person gonna hate me after I give them this piece of feedback? 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:37.120 But then again, it's just thinking, well, actually, no, I'm I have good intent here, I'm actually doing it to help them. 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.360 So try and like get rid of that negative internal dialogue. 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:44.720 But for you, Amanda, which one if you to choose? 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:46.960 Yeah, I think fairness is a big one. 00:08:47.039 --> 00:09:02.559 Actually, I didn't talk about fairness, but making sure that I do it in a way that I treat people fairly and that because of my impatience impulsiveness, I don't just jump in with feedback that's about me or how I'm feeling, but to make sure that I'm truly being fair and considering the other person. 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:04.639 That's probably my one that I need to make sure. 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:07.679 But I think that's like two really good examples of how they're very different. 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:12.080 And so if you imagine you're in an organization, you know, you're gonna be working with lots of different people. 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:18.639 That's why a model like this is so useful because it can start that reflection for everyone to think about. 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:31.360 So um it's less about a rational evaluation of content and more an internal what we call threat calculation, if we want to say it like that, that's already happened before the feedback has even been shared or properly heard. 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:32.159 Is that what we're saying? 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:33.279 Is kind of going on. 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:34.080 Totally. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:41.919 What's even more crucial is that the calculation of threat is often unconscious and it happens fast and it happens before the conversation. 00:09:42.159 --> 00:09:55.600 It either moves us towards very quickly and very rapidly, because I want to get rid of it, I want to get rid of that cognitive dissonance, the discomfort, or we move away and we avoid and we're therefore submissive and overly kind and overly sugarcoating. 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:58.080 So, in other words, we don't even know

we're doing it sometimes. 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.960 We just note we recognize the discomfort and we want to do something about it. 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:04.399 Would you say that's a fight or flight? 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.480 Your fight or flight is kind of activating in that situation. 00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:07.679 Absolutely. 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:21.279 So, for example, if I'm giving feedback, by the time I'm consciously engaging with the words, my nervous system has already made a judgment about whether it's safe or not, which is then what causes me to say it really abruptly or be like, you know what, I'm gonna retreat here. 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:22.080 Absolutely. 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:30.240 And so that's why training people on strategies and feedback models is less helpful if you do it alone without considering the environment. 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.840 You can know exactly how to frame a piece of feedback and still not give it. 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:38.879 So I might know exactly how to give feedback using Cubid, question, behaviour, impact, do differently. 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:42.720 Yet I might think, no chance, that's a real risky one. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:46.399 Or it might be about the way we think that person's going to respond in that situation. 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:47.840 That's another big one often. 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:49.759 Do you have any good examples of that? 00:10:50.080 --> 00:11:07.200 So if there's a particularly touchy person in the team or colleague about a particular topic, and you know you've got to give them feedback, you've given them feedback about it multiple times, and they've already responded negatively to it, you've already got evidence or examples of them responding negatively to it, you know what you're facing. 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:09.440 So that your brain is already preparing you. 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:22.080 And if you think about neuroplasticity and facing into stress, what happens with neuroplasticity is that every time we face into that stress, we learn and we create the neural pathways for doing something similar the next time. 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:28.559 So if we're not successful, what happens is we learn that and we therefore learn that we want to avoid it. 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:36.159 If we are successful in giving feedback and have helped and it has been a positive outcome, then what happens is we again, you know, we learn from it and we move towards it. 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.720 Uh, do you know what an example might be body odor? 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:40.000 That's kind of a tricky one. 00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:49.039 I do remember very early in my career had being asked to give someone feedback in my team when I worked for a big organization before Zircon to give someone feedback on body odor. 00:11:49.120 --> 00:12:01.519 That's a tricky such a tricky one because it's in some ways it feels unrelated to performance in a way, but ultimately, you know, it can

be what's the word, distracting for some people, which can inhibit performance. 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:03.120 And it's an emotional point as well. 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:03.600 Yeah. 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.519 People both working with that individual and also for that person who was receiving that feedback who may not be aware. 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.039 So did you have to do it then? 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.200 I did, and I didn't do it very well. 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:14.000 Honestly. 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.120 No, I did it in my impatient, abrupt way. 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.679 So, you know, how would I do it now? 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:23.840 I'd use Cubid, but I'd make sure that the environment was right for that person beforehand. 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.480 Oh well, we learn from these things, and I'm sure there's loads of people who have been in that same situation. 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.360 So I think that's an interesting segue because I think we've been predominantly talking about giving feedback. 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:43.279 I think a lot of the time people talk about being on the receiving end, but you know, I think both obviously are just as important to kind of be in that right, I guess, mindset. 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:50.879 But what's interesting to me is that the threat response when we think about receiving feedback can also kick in before the feedback even arrives. 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:58.559 So it's not just about receiving a difficult comment if you're on the receiving end, it can happen at the anticipation stage of receiving. 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:00.080 But that's the same with the giving feedback. 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.240 I know it's getting a bit confusing here going back and forth. 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:17.519 But to give an example, I remember Christian telling me a story or about his experience about doing a 360 debrief with a HR director, someone who championed 360 feedback across the organization for years, but had never actually done her own 360. 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:23.840 So every time the opportunity came up for that person to do it, something in her, I think, just resisted. 00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:29.679 And she'd find a way to maybe avoid doing it, which as you can imagine, is quite ironic in that situation. 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:31.440 So what's going on there? 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.600 That's a perfect textbook example of anticipatory threat. 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:38.480 And it's much more common than we probably realize. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:52.399 So before the feedback even arrives, so as soon as we know that there's the potential of a 360 feedback process or any type of feedback, the brain is already running a simulation trying to predict what might be in that 360. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.320 And it tends to go towards negative or the uncertain possibilities more than the positive ones. 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:01.120 So it's true negativity bias doing its job. 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.879 The HR director might be thinking, what if there's something I don't know? 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:06.480 What if I've got some blind spots? 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:07.840 What if I'm not a great leader? 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.519 What if my team don't like me? 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:16.480 And so critically, she's looking at all of the negative things that could potentially happen, and she has no control over that information. 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:19.279 You know, she can't shape it and frame it, she can't control it. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:25.120 So that uncertainty and lack of control is probably one of the most uncomfortable states we can be in. 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:26.320 And the brain doesn't like it. 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.960 The brain likes predictability and certainty and control. 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:32.879 So the avoidance isn't irrational, the avoidance is rational. 00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:37.200 Actually, it's an efficient short-term solution to get away from that pain. 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:39.759 You're overthinking it, if anything, because you're thinking about the outcome. 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:40.399 Absolutely. 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:42.320 So you're just like, well, that's a no for me. 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:42.639 Thanks. 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:43.120 I'm out. 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:44.639 Yeah, I've definitely been there. 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:49.120 And what's interesting actually in that story was apparently the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:54.240 And so that person learned a lot about their strengths and they weren't actually giving themselves enough credit. 00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:01.279 So perhaps as someone who's more on the uh self-critical side of things, you know, we make things feel like they're going to be a lot worse than they actually are. 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:02.720 Do you know what's really interesting? 00:15:02.799 --> 00:15:07.519 Because on reflection, we've we run development programs for senior execs around the world. 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.120 And the CEO is usually the leader of that team. 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.320 And often we'll say to that CEO, do you want to be part of it? 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:16.240 And most of the time they'll say no. 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.240 But every now and then we'll have a CEO who says, Yes, I'd like to be part of it, and I'll lead. 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.320 So they role model and they go first. 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:23.519 But it's rare, isn't it? 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:28.080 I would say probably 30% of the time the CEO is actually part of the process. 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.279 Self-nominated part of the process rather than private equity. 00:15:31.360 --> 00:15:33.679 Could you assess everyone and include the CEO in it? 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:36.480 I guess as an imposter syndrome, maybe playing in there. 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:39.440 Or maybe on the opposite end, it's that

they actually just don't think they need it. 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.559 They need Yeah, I'm actually a perfect version of myself. 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:43.360 Thank you very much. 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:52.639 Um I guess the important thing is that it's not a weakness to avoid giving and receiving feedback necessarily. 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.000 It's very normal to experience that psychological threat. 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:05.360 But the problem is that I guess organizations treat it as a capability gap or a commitment gap rather than it being about psychological safety or a psychological safety gap. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:06.399 I totally agree. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:16.879 Well, I guess that brings us back then to your earlier point that the solution might not just be more training, it's about creating the conditions where it doesn't feel so risky. 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:17.759 Is that correct? 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:18.960 Yeah, exactly. 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:24.000 It's not just about skills and learning, it's about leadership and environment. 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:30.080 So a better point would be to think about the psychological safety and the climate of the organization. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.080 Is it ready for feedback? 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:39.840 So if we talk about when we give feedback, it lands, but that it lands badly. 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:46.320 I have an example where I've worked with a um successful senior lawyer a few months ago who went through a 360. 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:54.080 The majority of the feedback was balanced and constructive, but there was one line in the report that described that person as too emotional in certain situations. 00:16:54.240 --> 00:17:07.359 And that one line completely, well, it derailed the conversation because there was pages of positive data that was in that report, but kept on coming back to that one single comment again and again, and everything else barely registered. 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:09.039 I've definitely been there. 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.240 Did you find that conversation really tricky as a result, Caitlin? 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.559 Because you kept going back to that emotional point. 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:15.759 Yeah, I guess there is. 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:23.519 You have to kind of manage that emotional point, but also bring it back to, you know, it's one data point, you know, let's look at the themes and there's a way that you manage that situation. 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:27.440 But yeah, of course it is, because you want the conversation to end up being valuable for them. 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:34.880 And if they're just honing in on that one thing that might not be a true representative piece of data, it's an interesting, yes, definitely an interesting one. 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:37.279 But what would you say is going on psychologically? 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:46.640 So it's a really important point because there's a clear distinction between behavioral feedback, which describes what you did or what the person had done or what you've seen. 00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:52.319 Because you can change that where it versus identity-based feedback, and that's about judgment. 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.160 You know, that too emotional in certain situations, we don't actually have evidence. 00:17:56.319 --> 00:17:57.839 There's no behaviour. 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:00.079 We don't know what the emotion looks like. 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.440 It's very subjective, and in certain situations, it's not specific. 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:06.960 So too emotional is really dangerous because it's so ambiguous. 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.640 And the feedback crosses a line from behaviour into identity. 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:14.319 It would trigger a sense of, you know, who am I? 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:15.359 Do I fit? 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:16.480 Am I acceptable? 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:17.359 Do I belong? 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:24.640 It makes me think about the research that Christian shared with me, which was the Naomi Eisenberger research on social pain. 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:35.599 So it's not research I normally look at, but he was talking about her research about social rejection, about being criticized, excluded, diminished in some way, and how it activates the system. 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.400 And it has the same impact as physical pain. 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:44.400 I really get that because one of my key triggers or things I don't like is loneliness. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.599 I mean, I was an only child until my brother joined me when I was 24. 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.480 So I don't like being alone and I don't like being isolated or being left out. 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.640 So that absolutely I really get. 00:18:54.960 --> 00:19:02.880 So when feedback feels like a personal judgment, it activates that social pain of being criticized or excluded or diminished in some way. 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:09.759 And the response is for people to withdraw, often to be defensive to withdraw in order to avoid the pain. 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:10.240 Yeah. 00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:13.599 I imagine your amygdala is on high alert in that situation. 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:22.319 The word that I'm going to use here, because it's fresh in my mind from my friend who's going through a different situation outside of work, and she used the word a character assassination. 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.279 So I wonder if people feel it's like a character assassination. 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.160 And then that sends them to spiralling into thinking that. 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:30.799 And um, yeah, I guess it's not productive. 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.079 That friend sounds like she needs your support or he needs your support. 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.039 Yes, yes, and there we're we're working through it. 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.200 But yeah, I guess you can't process the rest of the feedback clearly, which I

think is the main point. 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:48.240 Exactly, because if you think when we're under threat, which is what we're talking about, our cognitive flexibility diminishes. 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:55.119 So we can't hold on to multiple pieces of information, we can't weigh them up, we can't think rationally about implications. 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:57.359 Our thinking is very much compromised. 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.559 So we can't be logical when we're feeling threatened. 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:12.960 I guess it's all that stuff that we usually talk about with the neuroscience where all the blood and oxygen is being sent round your body, fight or flight, that it's not being sent to your brain to be able to rationalise this character assassination. 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:15.440 But I guess it's a pattern that we see constantly. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:16.480 I mean, I see it constantly. 00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:28.640 It's the one negative comment effect, not just in a 360 report, but even if you were in a, I don't know, a performance review and someone was that said four really great things, the one bad thing is the thing you're gonna walk away remembering. 00:20:28.799 --> 00:20:35.200 So similarly in a 360 report, you can have up to 40 people comment, you know, if you've got a lot of people that have responded. 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:40.319 But if there's that one that's just doesn't quite sit or feel right, then that guess what? 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:41.680 That's the one that they want to talk about. 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.039 Yeah, and that's the negativity bias that we all have. 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:50.559 You know, we're evolutionary wired for identifying and avoiding threat. 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:56.480 We know that when we're feeling threatened, we get tunnel vision and our focus narrows. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.599 And we focus intensely on what feels threatening or risky. 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:09.440 So not only do we focus on the negative things, we hone in on those negative things and we focus on them acutely. 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:25.200 It's not, for example, with your legal client, it's not that she was being dramatic or ignoring the positive feedback, it's just that the brain was flagging that stimulus as a risk and telling them just to identify it and remove it and focus on it and sort it. 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:26.799 It's a protective mechanism. 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:27.519 Yeah. 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:34.400 Do you know if people in your organization feel safe to speak up about their concerns and ideas? 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:38.079 We often talk about the importance of psychological safety on this podcast. 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:43.119 But did you know we offer a diagnostic tool to help measure the climate of psychological safety within your team? 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:47.039 When your people feel empowered to speak up, Annovation has the chance to thrive. 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:52.720 Visit the CPO.co.uk to learn more about the B Talent Suite or get in touch with me on LinkedIn. 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.759 That's Angela Malik, M A L I K. 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:58.799 Open the door to the Art of the Possible today. 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:12.240 So, I guess to answer your question from earlier, if you think about when you're giving feedback and particularly in a 360 feedback process, one thing that can really help is to deliberately slow things down at the start. 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:17.599 So rather than going straight into the data, asking, you know, were there any pleasant surprises in the report? 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:18.640 Why don't we start there? 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:26.319 And sometimes people often uh look slightly thrown by that question because they hadn't really given themselves the permission to notice the positive thing. 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.039 So that's quite a nice way to start the conversation. 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:35.839 Yeah, I really like that actually, because if we go straight into the challenging content, you're activating the threat before you've got the safety. 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:36.720 And that's the point. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:38.400 You need to get to that safe ground. 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.720 I know there's permission to swear, but we always used to talk about the sandwich. 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.119 Yeah. 00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:47.200 And people talk about it as being a really bad thing that we shouldn't do that. 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:52.799 But if you think about psychological safety, we do need to create the safe ground before we go into the negative feedback. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:58.160 We need to create the opportunity to think expansively and not to be narrow in our thinking. 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:08.960 Another way we do it is we make sure that the individual doesn't have their report too long before we get into the conversation to help understand it, because otherwise they they overly focus and ruminate, don't they? 00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:13.599 Yeah, I find that's always a really helpful practice that we implemented. 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:18.480 So if we're giving or receiving feedback, it changes the behavior. 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.640 So that threat changes that behaviour. 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:22.720 Do you have any good examples of that? 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:29.200 I think my best examples are when leaders believe that they're really open to feedback. 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.319 And I think I'm probably one of these people, by the way. 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:41.440 You know, I want to be open to feedback, but in the moment of receiving challenging or critical feedback, what happens is I can maybe be a bit more closed in my body language. 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:48.799 And so I'll be sending micro signals to you to say, actually, I'm not that interested in the feedback because I'm kind of in protection mode, if that makes sense. 00:23:48.880 -->

00:23:49.200 Yeah. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:24:03.759 So it might just be, you know, I might look away or I might look down, or my shoulders might rise, or I may no longer have my head on the side, my lips may go down, you know, I may no longer be smiling, I might be frowning, or I might clasp my hands under the desk. 00:24:03.839 --> 00:24:07.519 You know, there's lots of signs that I'm not comfortable, or I might be fidgeting. 00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:11.279 There's so many signs that actually that I'm feeling unsafe. 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.039 I want to close my ears to this, I'm I'm feeling discomfort. 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:23.119 So when our behavior and our words don't match, those micro signals are very clearly read by the other person. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.599 They don't kind of connect, they don't calibrate. 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:29.039 Imagine I was giving you that feedback and I noticed those signs in you. 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:33.839 I might hold back from actually giving you the true feedback because you think, oh God, she doesn't really want to hear this. 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:54.160 Well, Manda, for the record, I don't think I've noticed you do that, but let's say I was giving you feedback and you started doing that, it would then make me feel as though maybe next time I might not say anything or I might sugarcoat it more because obviously it wasn't like a pleasant experience to watch you feel that uncomfortable. 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:55.920 I guess that probably happens quite a lot. 00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:56.880 It does, yeah. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:03.519 Because if you think also that those visual signals are almost more impactful, I might say, Thank you, Caitlin, that was helpful. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.720 But all of my body language, my face, my demeanour might be screaming at you, that was awful. 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:09.839 I'm really upset. 00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:28.079 We talked about an example of you giving feedback to one of our team recently, and that while she was saying, Yes, I'm open to the feedback, you said to me that her non-verbals were desperately uncomfortable, desperately unhappy with receiving feedback because she wasn't used to receiving feedback of that kind. 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:32.960 What somebody says and what you see can really have a very different impact. 00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.000 It goes back to the music, words, dance model. 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.559 Yeah, which is proven, disproven, proven, disproven. 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:39.279 Yeah, exactly. 00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:40.240 Exactly that. 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:50.000 And if you think about Brene Brown as well and her work on vulnerability, she argues that vulnerability isn't a weakness, but it's actually one of the most important and demanding leadership behaviours. 00:25:50.160 --> 00:26:01.920 And so for me in this scenario to sit with the discomfort of receiving feedback is actually the most important thing, rather than for me to defend or explain or redirect the conversation to actually just sit with your feedback. 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.559 That's the most important thing I could do as a leader. 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:08.079 But it's probably one of the hardest things I have to do as a leader. 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:14.400 I guess it's where trust comes in as well, because I was just reflecting on my own experience of giving feedback and receiving feedback. 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:26.960 And being a manager, I think there definitely is in most situations a teething period, maybe where the first time you might have to give feedback to someone new, there probably is going to be those signals. 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:29.599 But then it's about right, okay, I'm aware of it. 00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:35.599 How do I now have this open conversation and create that safety and create that trust? 00:26:35.680 --> 00:26:42.799 So then the next time they know that throughout our relationship, there is going to be feedback along the way because that is how you're going to grow. 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:44.640 And it's never with bad intent. 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.400 So yeah, it's just about, I guess, building that with people. 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:49.039 Too. 00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:54.720 And if we go back to psychological safety, we know the foundation is all around that clarity. 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:58.960 So people knowing what they're supposed to be doing, it's about connection and it's about trust. 00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:09.279 But also, we always try to take time to connect with people and have non-work conversations and encourage people to ask questions and show interest and to listen. 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:14.319 So it's some really simple techniques actually to start a process before giving feedback. 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:18.880 Don't just jump straight in with the, oh, by the way, you were rubbish at this or whatever. 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:19.359 Yeah. 00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:21.519 As you said, it's creating those right conditions. 00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:29.920 So if we zoom out from the individual level, because I think there are structural and cultural dynamics at play that make all of this harder. 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:35.279 Why do organizations consistently fail to build the feedback cultures they say they want? 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:37.279 What's your perspective on that? 00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:40.000 Well, I think it comes down to low psych safety again. 00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:48.799 If you think about some of the scales on our questionnaire, it's organizations that have got a high need to please and are super polite where harmony is valued over honesty. 00:27:49.039 --> 00:28:00.559 Another one is when there's a super relentless culture where there's high performance pressure, high stakes environments, and people want to appear competent in control, so they don't want to be seen as weak in any way. 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:04.559 It could be down

to a hierarchy, so power dynamics are really important. 00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:22.720 So there's a deference to leadership, and so speaking up carries risk, and it could be around lack of clarity, so it could be inconsistency, and so feedback is welcomed in some parts, but not in others, and also it's not really clear about what the real purpose is within a team or an organization. 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:27.920 The thing is, I think that all of this happens in organizations, they generally want better feedback cultures. 00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:33.599 I think they're not trying to create avoidance, they've just built environments that inadvertently produce it. 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:34.480 It's true. 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:41.359 So it's the structural and cultural or climate signals that overpower the values and the behaviours. 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:45.519 So it's the way people operate that overpowers the values. 00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:56.160 So they can say, you know, we value conversation, we value communication, we value people bringing their best versions of themselves to work, yet they may not actually operate in that way. 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.240 So it's the way actually leaders operate that has such an impact on the environment. 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:06.960 Which I guess kind of reinforces the importance of being a good role model in this space and being courageous. 00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:12.960 Another thing that brings to mind is that feedback's not always about the content, so it's not always about what it is. 00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:15.759 What's also happening in the background is the relationship. 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:22.559 So there are often times where power dynamics might be at play, or maybe there's another, you know, ulterior motive. 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:28.559 And that's why feedback can land really differently depending on who gives it and what their intention is. 00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:48.799 So if it's someone from someone you trust who their intention is purely for you to help you learn, to help you grow, to help you understand, then you will know that if the intention is for them because they're frustrated or annoyed, or for the organization because they have to give it even though they don't want to, it's going to feel very apparent. 00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:51.519 So the intention is really key. 00:29:51.759 --> 00:30:01.440 It also got me thinking about when we need objectivity in feedback via rating scales and standardized questions and competency models. 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:05.920 We also need to remember that at the end of the day is the two people having a conversation. 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:16.880 Yeah, and I don't think it's wrong to have all the things you just mentioned, you know, the robust rating scales and competencies and indicators and everything, but they're ultimately just a starting point for gathering data. 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:23.279 Once you've gathered the data, it's the conversation that's the most important and of key value. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:31.599 So giving people the skills to have the conversation and to create the environment, which is fundamentally what we're talking about here, is the most important thing. 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:55.599 I guess it's um if you think about a 360, if you're an external person giving 360, there might be not as much hesitation because you're just literally going through that report with an individual and there might be some negative feedback in there, which yes, you're going to have to manage, but that's a very different experience to if you're a manager and you have some ad hoc feedback you need to give someone, but I think still useful in both scenarios. 00:30:55.839 --> 00:31:01.920 So if all of this is true, feedback is fundamentally a threat response problem, not just a skill problem. 00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.200 What actually works? 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.839 What moves people from avoidance to genuine engagement with feedback? 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:14.799 So it doesn't matter what models you have or what programs you have or what training you do if you don't have the right environment. 00:31:14.960 --> 00:31:21.200 So if people do not feel safe to speak up, then they're not going to give feedback openly and robustly. 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.160 So the first investment is in psychological safety to encourage honest and open feedback. 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:27.440 Create trust as well. 00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:28.000 Exactly. 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.400 The second one is to reduce social threat triggers. 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.279 So you think about ROC's scarf domains. 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.440 It means that understanding what those threats are and overcoming them. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:42.079 And then it's helping people to regulate their emotions, so it's all the resilience stuff as well. 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:55.119 So helping them understand how they feel and to combat those emotions before they go into those situations so they can create that neuroplasticity and learn so that when they next have a feedback, they're in a better, stronger position. 00:31:55.359 --> 00:31:57.279 It's like creating that growth mindset as well. 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:06.400 And actually, it made me think of a really useful thing that you can do in a debrief or any feedback, say, this might bring up some feelings, that's really normal. 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:08.720 It doesn't mean anything is wrong, for instance. 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:11.599 This is going to be useful for your progression going forward. 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:16.799 And I guess people are often trying to process the data and manage the emotional response to that data at the same time. 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:22.079 So it's useful to have like a word or a phrase that you might go in with to just set the tone. 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:23.599 I think that's great actually. 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:46.079 So giving

permission for people to experience the emotions and acknowledge them can actually reduce the negative impact of those emotions because it's okay, particularly for men, because men and women feel differently about expressing emotions, particularly can be helpful for men because men are more wary in sharing their emotions than women just because of our society. 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:57.200 So, a potential question then, Amanda, that I think might be useful for our listeners to get your thoughts on is how should organizations approach embedding an effective feedback culture? 00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:58.559 There's a few things. 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:02.079 One, it's about normalizing feedback as a continual habit. 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:04.319 So everybody realizes this anyway. 00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:07.599 It shouldn't be a PMP performance management 360 thing. 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:12.960 It just happens all the time in small doses, and therefore it's much less emotionally loaded. 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:19.839 The other thing, of course, is about creating the environment so people feel safe and giving people the skills to actually give feedback. 00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:21.200 They're fundamental. 00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:28.640 We need to just make sure that everybody understands the importance of feedback and who's benefiting from it. 00:33:28.799 --> 00:33:35.599 You may benefit from it, Caitlin, from giving me feedback in the long term, but fundamentally I'm the person who's going to benefit the most. 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:42.000 So understanding that we're not doing it necessarily for ourselves in the short term, but will have a positive impact on us in the long term. 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:43.680 So win-winning in that sense. 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:50.319 A reflection I had, I think that comes through in all of this, is the challenge of making the dynamics visible. 00:33:50.559 --> 00:34:01.359 So what I mean by that is the threat responses, the relational dynamics, the micro signals we're talking about, all those things that are often happening below the surface and they're not part of the formal conversation. 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:12.880 So I suppose this is where we talk about structured tools like 360s or psychological safety diagnostics and psychometrics, they can be valuable as a way of potentially surfacing what's otherwise invisible. 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:14.239 Yeah, they can be. 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.360 I think we're talking about blind spots ultimately, aren't we? 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:20.800 So tools are fantastic for identifying blind spots. 00:34:20.960 --> 00:34:33.199 The point of using those products and using tools is not to just to create benchmarks and to understand how populations are performing against standards, it's to give people insight. 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:35.679 And that insight is a real starting point. 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:41.199 What we often see from using those tools is there's some elements that

are highly visible to the individual. 00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:51.280 If you think about the jihari window, but there's some elements that are really kind of unclear or were not visible to the individual, and that's where those conversations, those discovery areas, they're so so helpful. 00:34:51.519 --> 00:35:05.360 So, Amanda, I actually wanted to wrap up and ask you if you have any stories or you could share an example of a bit of feedback that really stuck with you or that was dealt with in a constructive way, everything that we've been talking about. 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:06.559 How interesting. 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.119 What's jumping into my head and not the good ones? 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:14.559 Immediately I'm thinking about pieces of feedback that I've received that weren't handled well. 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.719 They're the ones that have really stuck with me. 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:23.920 It's quite hard to think of an example where feedback has been delivered well and has had a positive impact. 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:27.760 I think one is around my use of language. 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:36.000 Because I'm quite enthusiastic and positive, I can use words like amazing quite a lot. 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.159 So I can get overly excited about things. 00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:39.119 It's amazing. 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:45.760 So I have had feedback that I can appear overly positive and overly enthusiastic. 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:50.320 So that was one that was quite helpful because I don't want to come in looking too happy clappy. 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:52.639 I, you know, I need to be realistic about what we can achieve. 00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:54.639 But did you feel like they delivered it well? 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:57.199 Yeah, because it was also about me being on stage as well. 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:01.679 And so I'm quite sensitive about when I've been on stage, whether it was okay or not. 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:07.440 So trying to make sure that I'm not using filler words or repetitive words on stage is really important to me. 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:10.320 You've definitely come to me afterwards and said, How was that? 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:13.599 Which I think again is good because that's you're asking for the feedback. 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:17.280 And that's what I was thinking earlier when we were talking about those signals. 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:21.039 I was thinking, when she's done that, how does she look when she's asked me? 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:24.880 And that's, I mean, I feel like you've been quite open to it, not too fidgety. 00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:28.480 Not too fidgety, looking away, avoiding your eye contact. 00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:30.719 Another one, I know I've had feedback. 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:32.880 I was just thinking about a r another really tough one. 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:39.119 A tough one is I know that I've had feedback from the team around project management because it's not my strength. 00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:49.920 Because I'm a big picture thinker and because I'm more visionary and an ideas person, whilst I am a complete finisher, if you think about the old Belbin team type, I'm not the planner. 00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:54.000 So I need people around me who are very robust in their planning. 00:36:54.159 --> 00:37:01.679 And so I have had feedback about that where I may be less clear on the steps, for example, or tracking projects against steps. 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.119 And so now I have people around me who do that for me, which is fantastic. 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.920 Well, that's why we have teams, and we have a team of FIFA, so we can all play to our strengths. 00:37:10.079 --> 00:37:11.599 I still don't like feedback though. 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:17.360 And so for me, I know we've just done this whole pod, I'm not the most comfortable person receiving feedback. 00:37:17.519 --> 00:37:20.639 I've always had a fear of response, so I totally get it. 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:23.519 And in the past, I haven't been as comfortable giving feedback. 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:29.039 I'm much more comfortable giving feedback now because I really see the difference the feedback has made for people. 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:31.199 So I'm much, much more comfortable giving it. 00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:37.360 I was just thinking myself there about receiving feedback and how, yeah, I'm the same as you. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.800 It's not something I think I'm really looking forward to hearing this. 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.599 But I do think it does depend on the person sometimes. 00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:56.880 If it was someone that I feel like I've got a very strong relationship with, then I know that if they're giving me a bit of feedback, it's purely I know through and through it's for me, then I'm more likely to approach them and just say, was there anything I could have done better? 00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:58.880 That's probably what I go in with. 00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.400 Whereas if it was someone new, that hurts my soul sometimes to have to ask. 00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:08.719 But that goes back to our point around creating that relationship and creating that safety. 00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:13.119 But ultimately the reality is you're going to be potentially receiving feedback from someone that you might not know very well. 00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:19.199 And you have to be prepared on the receiving end as well as to be ready to give feedback to someone you also don't know very well. 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:22.000 So it's it's good to be prepared for all scenarios. 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:23.519 Well, thank you, Amanda. 00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:24.880 That time flew by. 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:28.320 I think it's because it's one of these topics that I'm always talking about. 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:48.239 But I wanted to end with a simple version, I guess, of a key takeaway around if someone is listening to this and they're in an organization where feedback is hard, where people hold back from giving the feedback, or where the honest conversations are not quite happening, what's the one thing you'd want them to take from this episode? 00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:54.159 So the key message is that when feedback feels difficult, it's not usually about capability. 00:38:54.239 --> 00:38:57.519 It's much more about vulnerability and how people feel. 00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:06.719 So if that's the case, look at the environment and ask yourself have we got the right conditions for people to be honest and to take interpersonal risk? 00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:10.400 And what do we need to change for them to feel like it's less of a risk? 00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:12.960 So the science is really clear on this. 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:24.800 You need consistent leadership behaviours, you need to build trust, people need to feel like they belong, they need to feel like people are genuine in their desire to help one another. 00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:39.760 So to accept the discomfort and to face into those tricky times of giving and receiving feedback and to learn from it, we need to recognize that everybody's doing it for the right intention, for the right purpose. 00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.000 And I'm gonna finish with taking a page out of your book and say, amazing. 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:49.760 Um, but no, thank you, Amanda, and thank you to everyone who's listening. 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.679 If this has been useful, do feel free to share it or leave a review. 00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:59.039 Give us feedback in the spirit of giving feedback, both constructive and positive. 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:00.320 We won't bite back. 00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:05.360 But it does make a genuine difference to how many people we can reach and share our learnings around. 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:07.920 So we'll be back soon with another episode. 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:09.679 Until then, take care. 00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:10.800 Thanks, Amanda. 00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:14.239 Thank you, Caitlin, and thank you, Christian, for the prep on this pod. 00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:15.440 And thank you, everyone, for listening. 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.079 Hope you have a wonderful and successful day.