บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Walking with Revolutionaries? (Michael Hichborn) 7/16/26

crisis? 04:24.141 --> 04:28.071 So Pope Francis in 2014 launched what 04:28.571 --> 04:31.422 he called the World Meeting of popular movements. 04:31.919 --> 04:35.365 And it was actually a continuation of a program that he 04:35.865 --> 04:39.854 had going on when he was the Bishop of Buenos Aires. But what he 04:39.934 --> 04:43.493 instituted was this meeting of a 04:43.557 --> 04:46.651 whole bunch of different South American organizations, plus a few 04:46.683 --> 04:51.444 from Africa and a couple from Asia. The popular movements 04:51.893 --> 04:55.099 that he brought in were groups like MST, 04:55.243 --> 04:58.545 Movimento dos Trabalhadores Sem Terra. 04:58.946 --> 05:02.649 You had these Guatemalan groups that were involved with guerrilla warfare. 05:02.858 --> 05:06.130 You had La Via Campesina, which is a massive 05:06.547 --> 05:10.028 organization, a global organization started back in the '90s. 05:10.413 --> 05:13.670 And the problem is they're all communists. Everybody remembers 05:13.766 --> 05:18.161 that picture of Pope Francis receiving that blasphemous 05:18.819 --> 05:22.733 hammer and sickle crucifix from Evo Morales back in 2015. 05:23.231 --> 05:27.048 He's the president of Bolivia? Yes. Okay. And what people 05:27.097 --> 05:30.385 don't really seem to remember or it actually 05:30.449 --> 05:34.684 wasn't that much reported, was that the reason he was in Bolivia was 05:34.861 --> 05:38.406 to convene the Second World Meeting of Popular Movements. 05:38.871 --> 05:42.208 And the day before the meeting 05:42.256 --> 05:45.849 took place, Evo Morales handed him that hammer and sickle 05:45.929 --> 05:49.763 crucifix. The very next day, Evo Morales sat 05:49.795 --> 05:52.811 right next to him for the rest of these meetings. 05:53.308 --> 05:55.779 And they were— yeah, and again, 05:56.292 --> 05:59.386 These are communist organizations. Evo Morales is a Marxist. 05:59.899 --> 06:03.153 You start putting 2 and 2 together, and you see this is 06:03.425 --> 06:06.984 basically giving top cover, a moral veneer 06:07.193 --> 06:10.703 from the Vatican to communist movements. Now, 06:10.783 --> 06:14.566 I want to interject. In my research, I tried to put together a 06:15.066 --> 06:19.135 comprehensive list of papal condemnations of socialism, 06:19.279 --> 06:22.710 Marxism, communism, and it was just entirely 06:22.822 --> 06:26.557 too long. So, folks, we put just 3 documents 06:26.589 --> 06:29.649 to get you started. We put in the show notes. Now, 06:30.036 --> 06:34.012 as professor of philosophy and theology and a student of history, I could say Marx 06:34.512 --> 06:38.030 was a lousy economist, a worse philosopher, and just 06:38.079 --> 06:41.364 an absolutely miserable, horrible human being. 06:41.895 --> 06:46.840 So, the idea that he's going to become the 06:47.340 --> 06:51.055 nuclear reactor, the furnace, the lifeblood of a 06:51.555 --> 06:55.277 movement makes me really wonder how 06:55.310 --> 06:59.117 Catholic or how intelligent these people are. They may be 06:59.150 --> 07:02.909 cunning, they may be crafty, but I don't think they study the faith. 07:03.006 --> 07:06.577 They don't study the tradition, and they're not very 07:07.077 --> 07:10.686 good as philosophers. But if Pope Francis is calling 07:10.800 --> 07:14.007 the Second Worldwide Meeting, can we take that as a 07:14.055 --> 07:17.141 stamp of approval? I would. I actually would. 07:17.721 --> 07:21.265 Okay. I don't know how we can interpret it any other way. I really don't. 07:21.616 --> 07:25.133 Right, right. No, no, I agree. I don't know how— so, 07:25.711 --> 07:29.148 I, you know, who let this happen? Someone should have said something 07:29.180 --> 07:32.938 to somebody to do something about it. And let's not forget, the hammer 07:32.954 --> 07:35.797 and sickle goes back to the old Soviet flag. 07:36.487 --> 07:40.068 It was the workers and the farmers 07:40.165 --> 07:43.714 who were going to be the vanguard of the workers' revolution and throw down the 07:44.214 --> 07:48.034 bourgeoisie and etc., etc. And historically, communism and Marxism doesn't 07:48.534 --> 07:51.432 have very nice things to say about the church, does it? No, not at all. 07:51.496 --> 07:55.679 In fact, Karl Marx, when he was writing about how religion 07:56.179 --> 07:59.477 is the opiate of the masses, what he did— he didn't mean that it was 07:59.525 --> 08:02.874 some sort of pipe dream that was just kind of a, you know, 08:03.451 --> 08:07.168 an illusion. What he meant was that it's a way of quelling the masses 08:07.505 --> 08:11.383 for the propagation of communist 08:11.883 --> 08:15.534 ideologies. So if you wrap communism into a 08:16.034 --> 08:19.702 religious veneer, then you get what he was actually aiming for. And that's kind of 08:20.202 --> 08:23.244 the problem that we're finding with this World Meeting of Popular Movements. 08:23.789 --> 08:26.915 Well, you know, gosh, I remember when I was an 08:27.415 --> 08:30.827 undergrad in the '80s, I mean, this is not a new thing, but they 08:31.327 --> 08:34.674 were selling little red books, like, remember Mao's Little Red Book in Communist 08:35.174 --> 08:38.970 China? And it was called Quotations from Chairman Jesus. And it 08:39.002 --> 08:42.977 was a way of, you know, cutting and pasting the Gospels in 08:43.090 --> 08:46.600 order to have sympathies for Marxism. So, Well, the story 08:46.616 --> 08:50.207 goes something like this: material poverty is bad, 08:50.784 --> 08:54.375 and the only one who can rescue it is going to 08:54.391 --> 08:58.110 be Marxism. And now we go back to the 08:58.610 --> 09:02.326 '70s with liberation theology, which, I'm not kidding, I'm sure you've 09:02.826 --> 09:06.189 seen this too, Michael, a lot of liberation theology was fomented by 09:06.689 --> 09:11.094 the Soviet KGB in the '70s. It wasn't a genuine popular 09:11.594 --> 09:15.695 movement, but the story goes is that if you combine

Marxist 09:15.871 --> 09:20.280 critiques and worker struggles, And you end up being Moses and 09:20.296 --> 09:23.518 the Book of Exodus, and that's how to do theology. 09:23.582 --> 09:27.060 Have you heard that stream as well? Absolutely. In fact, 09:27.413 --> 09:30.122 if you really understand what Marxism is, 09:30.619 --> 09:34.065 it's the idea of perpetual revolution. And the 09:34.565 --> 09:37.752 focus of the revolution is on the rejection of the cross. 09:38.153 --> 09:42.289 It's all built around envy and the desire 09:42.417 --> 09:45.415 to take something that you don't have from those who do. Right. 09:45.769 --> 09:48.274 And again, I, I can't stress enough, friends, 09:48.740 --> 09:52.337 how much Marx hates Christ. 09:52.932 --> 09:56.240 Marx hates Christ. He hates 09:56.385 --> 09:59.806 the Incarnation. He hates the cross. 10:00.625 --> 10:03.965 And when we talk about Marxism, when we talk about socialism, 10:04.415 --> 10:07.692 which is just Marxism with a smile on its face and 10:07.724 --> 10:10.888 a gun behind its back— and Marx is very 10:10.920 --> 10:14.293 clear that he can't wait for it to be his turn to 10:14.357 --> 10:17.955 be the violent one. So if there is a safe 10:18.147 --> 10:21.906 way of dallying with communism, I don't 10:21.922 --> 10:25.102 know what it is. I think it compromises your faith. 10:25.231 --> 10:29.166 I think it compromises your morals. And really, it's lousy 10:29.616 --> 10:32.908 theology. It's lousy economics. 10:33.406 --> 10:36.731 And what Marxism has bequeathed to the world is the 10:36.843 --> 10:40.762 cult of envy and tens of millions 10:41.260 --> 10:45.855 of dead bodies people who died in terror and violence 10:46.032 --> 10:49.598 or through the slow agony of starvation. 10:50.032 --> 10:53.007 This is not something that we can play with. 10:53.637 --> 10:56.881 Friends, we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Michael Hitchborn of 10:57.381 --> 11:01.066 the Lepanto Institute. We're talking about walking with revolutionaries. 11:01.436 --> 11:05.171 Are there Marxist populist movements getting cozy 11:05.268 --> 11:08.819 with the Vatican? Michael says that he has the receipts. 11:09.391 --> 11:11.040 After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com, 11:12.316 --> 11:16.218 get our resources list, download our audio as podcasts. 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Our returning guest today is Michael Hitchborn of the 12:58.678 --> 13:02.232 Lepanto Institute. We're talking about walking with revolutionaries Are 13:02.732 --> 13:05.855 there Marxist popular movements that are getting cozy with 13:06.355 --> 13:09.846 the Vatican? So, Michael, we've kind of given a bit of history and 13:10.346 --> 13:13.421 a background. Let's name names. Let's produce the receipts. 13:13.838 --> 13:18.150 Who are the major players, the leaders, the organizations, 13:18.182 --> 13:21.484 and what are they doing with the Vatican? So, I'll start with 13:22.254 --> 13:26.005 Cardinal Czerny, who is the head of the Dicastery 13:26.037 --> 13:29.387 for Integral Human Development in the Vatican, and he 13:29.403 --> 13:32.657 was the driving force behind the 13:32.689 --> 13:35.432 World Meeting of Popular Movements. Movements. And one of the things that he said in 13:35.932 --> 13:39.250 his speech was that the intention of the World Meeting 13:39.282 --> 13:42.860 of Popular Movements was part of the synodal path. And the 13:42.876 --> 13:46.373 idea— yeah, oh yes. And the idea was to 13:46.630 --> 13:50.143 not— in fact, he said for the very first time, not only 13:50.175 --> 13:53.432 were these popular movements meeting under the auspices of the Vatican, 13:54.106 --> 13:57.764 but they were— they had invited local representatives 13:57.940 --> 14:02.066 with a mandate from the local churches to accompany these communists 14:02.596 --> 14:06.450 in the meetings. And the idea was that they would then go 14:06.466 --> 14:10.000 back to their local communities and have greater collaboration with 14:10.500 --> 14:14.095 these

communists once they settled back in, in their homes. 14:14.432 --> 14:18.528 So, just for clarification, there were basically church 14:18.656 --> 14:22.415 people paired with these different 14:22.527 --> 14:26.028 Marxist groups meeting at the Vatican. Is that correct? That's correct. 14:26.301 --> 14:29.433 And it was part of this synodal path. Okay. 14:29.690 --> 14:33.416 All right. Okay, go on. So the meetings 14:33.593 --> 14:37.206 were held, at least the one in October of 2025, 14:37.222 --> 14:41.125 so just last year, the meetings were held in a place called 14:41.333 --> 14:44.497 Spin Time Labs. And Spin Time Labs is 14:44.610 --> 14:48.207 a squatter-occupied building that Pope Francis 14:48.707 --> 14:52.527 had protected even when the governments of Italy and the local government in 14:52.624 --> 14:55.739 Rome tried to evict the people out of this building. 14:56.012 --> 14:58.549 They are actual communists. In 2019, 14:59.062 --> 15:02.963 they hosted the Communist Party of Italy for an event commemorating 15:03.076 --> 15:06.929 the life of Marxist philosopher and theorist Domenico Losurdo. 15:07.330 --> 15:10.717 They, um, in 2021, they hosted an event 15:10.781 --> 15:13.703 called— and it's in Italian, I'll just read you the, uh, 15:14.458 --> 15:18.262 the translation— Beauty and the Beast, a meeting with 15:18.327 --> 15:22.790 Franco Bernardi Bifo. And Bifo is an openly Marxist 15:22.966 --> 15:26.356 philosopher, theorist, activist. And what's 15:26.856 --> 15:30.582 interesting about that particular event at Spintime Labs in 2021 15:30.759 --> 15:34.519 is that Bifo then had a dialogue with 15:34.696 --> 15:38.375 His Eminence Don Matteo Zuppi. So Cardinal Zuppi was 15:38.969 --> 15:42.794 participating in this, uh, you know, and, and we've got a whole 15:42.826 --> 15:46.200 bunch of other pieces of evidence to show just how communist, 15:46.585 --> 15:50.030 uh, Spintime Labs is. But what's really 15:50.062 --> 15:53.228 disturbing is that amidst its promotions 15:53.728 --> 15:58.284 of LGBT activism and abortion, they actually had a 15:58.784 --> 16:02.467 meetup at Spendtime Labs as they were preparing 16:02.499 --> 16:05.935 to have a pro-abortion march. They also, 16:06.711 --> 16:09.848 and this is just really kind of crazy, but they hosted 16:09.945 --> 16:13.712 this, or they actually not hosted, but they were the 16:13.842 --> 16:16.599 venue for a performance called La Merda, 16:17.152 --> 16:20.582 which in Italian means something that I can't say on the radio, 16:21.143 --> 16:24.894 right? But, uh, what it, um, what it was 16:25.407 --> 16:28.533 was a, uh, it was a one-woman act show, 16:29.014 --> 16:32.509 a one-woman act performance where she's just doing 16:32.541 --> 16:36.612 a monologue for, I think, 90 minutes. And the, 16:36.628 --> 16:39.882 the thing about it is that she was completely nude the entire time, 16:40.395 --> 16:44.083 no clothing whatsoever, and she was sitting in 16:44.583 --> 16:48.640 a chair just delivering this monologue with nothing to block 16:48.737 --> 16:52.749 any of the nudity. And in 2023, 16:53.311 --> 16:57.162 when Spin Time Labs was hosting this, they posted a 16:57.662 --> 17:01.624 sellout performance post on Facebook. They said yesterday at Spin 17:01.720 --> 17:04.801 Time Labs, the last day of La Merda show, 17:05.331 --> 17:09.247 they said it was all sold out. And they posted pictures from 17:09.439 --> 17:12.795 crowds waiting in the lobby to get into the performance. 17:13.357 --> 17:17.516 And in the lobby, they have a photograph of Don 17:17.789 --> 17:21.370 Mattei Ferrari, who happens to be the coordinator 17:21.643 --> 17:25.609 for the World Meeting of Popular Movements. So Don 17:25.657 --> 17:29.881 Mattei Ferrari was in the lobby waiting to attend 17:30.234 --> 17:34.136 this live nude performance at Spindime Labs, 17:34.650 --> 17:38.905 and this was 3 years or 2 years before the World 17:39.405 --> 17:42.901 Meeting of Popular Movements would be held at Spintime Labs. So, 17:42.981 --> 17:46.529 you know, you start to put the pieces together and you go, well, of course 17:47.029 --> 17:50.188 they knew who this organization was. Of course they knew what this venue was all 17:50.220 --> 17:53.815 about. And yet they decided anyway that that would be the place that 17:54.315 --> 17:58.197 they'd hold this meeting of communists. Right. And when you start 17:58.406 --> 18:02.386 digging into the, the organizations that were on 18:02.499 --> 18:06.527 the organizing committee, you've got Movimento dos Trabalhadores Sem Terra, 18:06.992 --> 18:10.584 They do actual read-alouds of the Communist 18:11.084 --> 18:15.636 Manifesto. We have video of them reading it aloud with 18:16.136 --> 18:19.660 young kids. We're talking like 10-year-olds reading portions 18:20.160 --> 18:23.685 of the Communist Manifesto while the Communist Internationale is playing in 18:24.185 --> 18:27.117 the background. They celebrate Karl Marx, 18:27.662 --> 18:30.532 his— the date of his birth as well as the date of his death, 18:30.581 --> 18:34.300 as if he was on par with Saint John the Baptist. Right. 18:34.397 --> 18:37.666 Um, and, you know, it's— they, they are 18:37.842 --> 18:41.304 actual communists. Mediterranea Saving Humans, uh, 18:41.529 --> 18:45.183 Don Matteo Ferrari is the chaplain for 18:45.683 --> 18:49.077 Mediterranea Saving Humans, and the head of it is a 18:49.577 --> 18:53.260 guy named Luca Casarini. Casarini is a longtime, 18:53.789 --> 18:56.498 uh, hardcore leftist activist. He has, 18:57.235 --> 19:00.985 uh, a long history of, of, uh, being involved with 19:01.017 --> 19:04.857 and a member of and a leader in various communist 19:05.357 --> 19:08.519 organizations in Italy. You know, 19:08.906 --> 19:12.730 and we have a bunch of others. Union de Trabajadores de 19:12.762 --> 19:15.538 la Economía Popular, so UTEP, 19:16.490 --> 19:19.845 which is— they march around through the streets

very 19:20.023 --> 19:23.492 often with communist organizations. They celebrate 19:23.992 --> 19:27.525 Hugo Chavez, who was a Marxist. They celebrate Fidel Castro, who was 19:27.557 --> 19:30.449 a communist. You know, you could go down the list. 19:30.550 --> 19:33.265 Sure, sure. All of these groups, they're just, 19:33.505 --> 19:37.240 they're horrible. Right. Now, just to be clear, in my understanding 19:37.497 --> 19:41.071 of the current practice of Marxism, when they talk about 19:41.745 --> 19:45.416 revolution, it really is kind of a Nietzschean 19:45.608 --> 19:49.054 inversion of all values. And basically, 19:49.295 --> 19:52.902 they hate the family, because when you have 19:53.402 --> 19:57.037 families, you want to feed your children, and you want your children to 19:57.053 --> 20:00.163 become heirs. So, you like private property, 20:00.901 --> 20:04.028 and private property is the boogeyman of Marxism. 20:04.510 --> 20:08.028 So they're very keen on the destruction of the family, 20:08.220 --> 20:12.188 aren't they, as seen in their advocacy for, 20:13.682 --> 20:17.023 so we say, irregular and intermittent unions, 20:17.119 --> 20:21.441 as well as abortion? Is it fair to say that they're not only economic revolutionaries, 20:21.473 --> 20:25.456 they're sexual revolutionaries as well? 100%. In fact, most of these 20:25.553 --> 20:28.862 organizations, they sign on to attempts to 20:28.926 --> 20:32.812 change abortion laws to be more liberal. They are 20:32.940 --> 20:36.054 actively marching through the streets for LGBT ideologies. 20:36.808 --> 20:40.227 Consistently, we found consistently, organization after 20:40.243 --> 20:43.902 organization participating in the World Meeting of Popular Movements were not 20:44.014 --> 20:47.577 just Marxists, but they were also pro-abortion, pro-LGBT, 20:48.043 --> 20:52.617 pro-sexual revolution. Now, what are the odds that the 20:52.761 --> 20:56.276 clergy who has been schmoozing 20:56.388 --> 20:59.788 with them in Rome How credible is it that they had 20:59.916 --> 21:02.240 no idea? I would say zero. 21:02.705 --> 21:06.007 Okay. Any— it didn't take long for 21:06.507 --> 21:09.710 us to find just how thoroughly Marxist these organizations were. 21:10.720 --> 21:14.118 The hard part in putting this report together was determining what not 21:14.182 --> 21:17.323 to include. The evidence 21:17.468 --> 21:20.321 is absolutely and completely overwhelming. 21:20.738 --> 21:24.601 Right. And I said, I mean, I read thoroughly. I mean, your reports 21:25.101 --> 21:28.641 go on at length. And, you know, again, you've got the receipts, 21:28.689 --> 21:32.681 you've got all the details. This isn't just rumors that 21:33.181 --> 21:36.786 you've heard. So, you know, I make references to the Catholic cadres or 21:37.286 --> 21:40.682 the people who should really know better club. Even if you give 21:40.794 --> 21:44.899 Pope Leo the absolute blank check benefit of the doubt that 21:44.947 --> 21:48.522 he's never, ever, ever had any idea about this whatsoever, 21:49.132 --> 21:52.755 is it unreasonable to expect that the people around him should 21:53.255 --> 21:57.036 have known and could have known? No, it's not unreasonable at all. Cardinal Czerny, 21:57.292 --> 22:00.034 he knew who these groups were. He was in the room with them. 22:00.899 --> 22:04.779 He was listening to their discussions and their promotions. 22:05.084 --> 22:08.787 And just looking at the final document, the final declaration 22:09.287 --> 22:13.629 that came out of the World Meeting of Popular Movements, it called for wealth 22:13.661 --> 22:17.380 redistribution. It called for universal access to healthcare, 22:17.669 --> 22:20.683 which, when you take it in context with those pro-abortion, 22:20.779 --> 22:23.969 pro-LGBT organizations, you know that they actually mean 22:24.387 --> 22:28.107 We want universal access to abortion, and we want universal 22:28.607 --> 22:32.514 access to sex change operations. Right, right. Yeah, we can't afford 22:33.259 --> 22:36.207 to be coy about that. So, is it reasonable, 22:36.255 --> 22:39.591 then, to infer that at least some senior 22:40.091 --> 22:43.346 Catholic cadres of the People Who Should Really Know Better club are actually on 22:43.476 --> 22:46.891 board with this agenda? I think that's a reasonable conclusion, 22:46.955 --> 22:49.472 yes. Okay, I don't know. 22:52.283 --> 22:55.832 How— I mean, I don't know how you get around that conclusion, and that just 22:56.332 --> 22:59.964 makes me wonder, you know, have you read the documents? I mean, have you heard 23:00.464 --> 23:04.199 of John Paul? So, you know, when we can talk about how 23:04.215 --> 23:06.947 did this happen, etc. 23:07.578 --> 23:10.585 What— we got about 2 minutes left in this segment. 23:11.135 --> 23:14.523 What kind of numbers are we talking about in terms of membership? 23:14.669 --> 23:18.231 Is it just 3 or 4 groups of 5 or 6 23:18.279 --> 23:21.714 people, or are we talking bigger numbers? No, there were about 23:22.214 --> 23:25.598 100 different organizations represented at the World Meeting of Popular 23:26.098 --> 23:29.610 Movements. Movimento dos Trabalhadores Sem 23:29.659 --> 23:33.703 Terra has 1.5 million members. So when 23:33.751 --> 23:37.555 you start, yes, these are not small organizations. Some of them are, 23:38.181 --> 23:40.557 but these are not tiny organizations. 23:41.712 --> 23:46.011 CUC has about 150,000 23:46.043 --> 23:50.322 members. The organization Senerob has about 180,000 23:50.822 --> 23:56.747 members. La Via Campesina, because they're a conglomerate of 181 23:56.859 --> 24:00.769 different organizations, they claim that they represent 24:01.269 --> 24:04.919 200 million people. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they have 200 24:04.951 --> 24:08.636 million people that are active members, but that 24:09.136 --> 24:12.369 means that they have influence that can reach 200 million people.

24:12.787 --> 24:15.821 See, this is why I think it's really important that we're clear on 24:15.934 --> 24:19.450 the numbers, because, you know, this is hard to process, 24:19.466 --> 24:22.678 Michael. And there are people who say, look, it's just 24:23.178 --> 24:26.515 a small fringe group of, of people who are, 24:26.531 --> 24:29.903 who are rather feverish in their thoughts, nothing to see 24:29.967 --> 24:33.676 here. And I understand that as a temptation. I think it's hopium 24:34.176 --> 24:37.980 and copium. But we are talking about organizations that are large 24:38.397 --> 24:41.995 that are effective, that have access to money, 24:42.589 --> 24:46.332 and it seems they have access to the ear of the Vatican 24:46.846 --> 24:49.946 as well. And that's what I find especially disturbing. 24:50.605 --> 24:53.930 And my goodness, uh, it gets even worse, 24:54.315 --> 24:57.271 friends. We come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Michael Hitchborn of the 24:57.287 --> 25:01.351 Lepanto Institute. We're talking about walking with revolutionaries, 25:01.961 --> 25:05.173 Marxist popular movements to have the ear of the 25:05.673 --> 25:08.930 Vatican. What should we do about that? After the broadcast today, 25:08.995 --> 25:12.912 go to thestationofthecross.com, get our resources list, download our audios, 25:13.025 --> 25:15.963 podcasts. Wherever you can find audio, you can find us. 25:16.140 --> 25:19.415 Follow us on your favorite platform, write a 5-star review. We need 25:19.431 --> 25:23.221 to attract the attention of the listeners. These conversations get the attention they 25:23.721 --> 25:26.914 deserve. Everything you need to take this to your family and friends, we give to 25:27.414 --> 25:30.302 you. Together, let's take it around the world. We can do it with you. 25:30.446 --> 25:33.882 We cannot do it without you. Let's do this good work together. We'll be 25:34.382 --> 25:35.793 back in just 2 minutes. Please do stay with us. 26:00.628 --> 26:04.334 This is the Catholic Current from the Station of the Cross Catholic Media 26:04.834 --> 26:08.409 Network. Catch up on an episode you've missed or share them with your family 26:08.909 --> 26:12.628 and friends. The Catholic Current is podcasted wherever you enjoy listening: 26:12.965 --> 26:16.511 Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podbean, TuneIn, and the 26:16.816 --> 26:20.104 iCatholic Radio mobile app. 26:20.667 --> 26:23.967 Christ. This is Father Robert McTaggart of the Society of Jesus, your daily host 26:24.467 --> 26:27.284 for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and the world to 26:27.784 --> 26:30.343 Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross Studios, your local radio 26:30.843 --> 26:35.211 station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app, and we proclaim the fullness of truth with clarity 26:35.243 --> 26:39.244 and charity. Hey friends, if you value thoughtful Catholic analysis, help sustain 26:39.324 --> 26:42.669 this work at thestationofthecross.com. Here in The Catholic 26:43.169 --> 26:46.956 Current, we engage issues seriously and faithfully, and that intellectual 26:47.456 --> 26:52.293 freedom exists because we are listener-funded. Support us at thestationofthecross.com. 26:52.684 --> 26:55.358 Our topic today is this: Walking with Revolutionaries? 26:56.933 --> 27:00.975 It seems that popular movements are actually Marxist 27:01.475 --> 27:04.984 front organizations, and they seem to have the ear of powerful people in 27:05.000 --> 27:08.565 the Vatican. My guest today who's done the research on it is Michael Hitchborn of 27:09.065 --> 27:12.415 the Lepanto Institute. Michael, it's not only Marxist, 27:12.672 --> 27:15.555 we have to talk about a pagan element as well, don't we? 27:16.046 --> 27:19.285 Yes, unfortunately, one of the things that came up 27:19.785 --> 27:23.324 in our research was that several of these organizations, and, and they 27:23.356 --> 27:27.172 represent large numbers of people, are deeply 27:27.204 --> 27:30.859 involved with pagan and demonic practices. 27:31.067 --> 27:35.219 All right, so fill us in on that, please. Sure. So one 27:35.719 --> 27:39.195 of the things that we posted in a follow-up article, the title of which is 27:39.291 --> 27:42.612 The World Meeting of Popular Movements Part 2, Bringing It All Home. 27:42.676 --> 27:46.129 You can see it on our website. Right. There are 2 photographs that we 27:46.273 --> 27:49.469 open the article with. The left photograph shows 27:49.581 --> 27:54.046 a picture of Pope Leo. He's at the World Meeting of Popular Movements General 27:54.142 --> 27:57.547 Gathering. So they're meeting in the Vatican, not at Spintime Labs. 27:58.398 --> 28:02.750 And the leader representing MST, 28:02.975 --> 28:06.315 Movimentos dos Trabalhadores Sem Terra, is presenting him 28:06.588 --> 28:09.977 with a beaded tapestry And you look at it and 28:10.477 --> 28:13.673 it looks kind of like an indigenous person dressed up in some sort of strange 28:14.173 --> 28:17.674 regalia, right? We did some research on it and we discovered that 28:18.174 --> 28:21.626 the tapestry actually depicts a pagan deity called Osanna, 28:22.012 --> 28:25.643 and that pagan deity belongs to a pantheon of other 28:26.143 --> 28:29.403 deities involved in something called Candomblé. 28:30.062 --> 28:33.677 Candomblé is if you were to take voodoo 28:33.773 --> 28:37.047 and combine it with Santeria, you'd have Candomblé, where they, 28:37.753 --> 28:41.121 they use syncretism to hide their pagan gods behind 28:41.621 --> 28:45.243 the images of Catholic saints, right? And they, 28:45.388 --> 28:49.638 they conduct these dark rituals— I mean, really dark rituals— uh, 28:49.959 --> 28:53.808 invoking spirits to possess their bodies so 28:54.308 --> 28:57.610 that they can then be involved in divination and answer, 28:58.203 --> 29:01.443 you know, certain questions about, oh well, is that— is the girl gonna love me,

29:01.507 --> 29:04.234 or am I ever gonna find that job that brings me wealth or whatever. 29:04.859 --> 29:08.756 And, and they do these divining rituals through 29:09.189 --> 29:12.861 the possessed person. And one thing that's, that's particularly, 29:13.519 --> 29:17.512 uh, interesting about candomblé is that many times 29:18.089 --> 29:22.227 the possessed person will take on the characteristics and attributes 29:22.756 --> 29:24.921 of members of the opposite sex. 29:25.466 --> 29:29.267 And as, as a result, we do find MST 29:29.956 --> 29:33.403 another group called Sene Rab that are deeply involved 29:33.903 --> 29:37.490 with Candomblé. They are very, very big in 29:37.990 --> 29:41.803 promoting transgenderism. So there's a connection between 29:41.979 --> 29:45.939 their pagan worship, their dark rituals, and their promotion 29:46.439 --> 29:50.427 of an ideology, a political/moral ideology that 29:50.876 --> 29:54.579 is antithetical not just to the moral order, but also 29:55.079 --> 29:59.467 to human nature itself. Gosh, where to begin with 29:59.967 --> 30:03.954 this? You know, uh, Michael, as, as we're recording this, I offered Mass today 30:04.098 --> 30:07.463 on the Feast of Saints Cyril and Methodius, who were, you know, 30:07.543 --> 30:11.581 very great missionaries and were able to make 30:11.709 --> 30:15.251 use of local culture in a legitimate way 30:15.715 --> 30:19.273 and Christianize it. And that is an honorable 30:19.773 --> 30:23.216 thing to do. I mean, Jesuit missionaries, uh, did this in 30:23.264 --> 30:26.795 the Amazon, went out to the middle of nowhere in the 30:26.860 --> 30:30.230 jungle. People didn't even have a written language, gave them a grammar, 30:30.648 --> 30:34.789 gave them a dictionary, and then also taught them how to build basilicas, 30:35.463 --> 30:39.218 and then also taught them how to make symphonic instruments that are still used today, 30:39.780 --> 30:43.376 and incorporated some of their musical tones, 30:43.408 --> 30:47.019 etc., in very beautiful music, some of which could 30:47.519 --> 30:52.333 be incorporated into chant, etc. That's legitimate enculturation. 30:52.782 --> 30:56.139 What I've seen, and I want to ask if you've seen this too, is that 30:56.236 --> 30:59.994 we're just going to adapt things willy-nilly without any 31:00.091 --> 31:03.689 discernment at all and call it an enculturation, 31:04.122 --> 31:06.949 and that makes it okay. Have you seen this too? 31:07.495 --> 31:10.917 Absolutely. In fact, one of the things 31:10.949 --> 31:15.494 that we— I mean, everybody remembers the Pachamama incident from 2019. 31:16.153 --> 31:19.670 Yeah, you know, This kind of excuse-making 31:20.088 --> 31:23.829 for what really amounted to be the 31:24.504 --> 31:28.840 odd synchronization of the Pachamama 31:28.856 --> 31:32.743 with Our Lady was absolutely— it was not a 31:32.791 --> 31:36.677 matter of using imagery from 31:36.886 --> 31:41.030 a pagan culture and trying to illustrate Christian 31:41.046 --> 31:44.801 realities because of it. No, this was a conflating 31:45.057 --> 31:48.807 of this pagan deity with Our Lady, which is completely— 31:48.839 --> 31:52.829 it's blasphemous. Well, of course it is, you know, and then, and she was presented 31:52.909 --> 31:56.995 as nude, uh, as well. So let's not, let's not 31:57.495 --> 32:01.593 forget that. So yeah, I mean, it's undeniable that pagan worship 32:01.657 --> 32:05.311 does often include invocation of 32:05.407 --> 32:09.172 the demonic. It's not something that you can play 32:09.672 --> 32:13.359 with. This isn't just cosplay or LARPing. So, 32:14.339 --> 32:18.034 there is that strain. Are there other pagan elements as 32:18.163 --> 32:22.372 well? Because I think some of the pagan elements that I saw kind 32:22.872 --> 32:26.693 of divinize the earth, so you're worshiping the elements and so 32:27.193 --> 32:30.469 on. You make this particular 32:30.969 --> 32:34.196 planet the absolute. Doesn't that obscure heaven? 32:34.726 --> 32:37.200 Well, it certainly does. And, 32:38.164 --> 32:41.936 you know, There's one of the organizations that we focused 32:42.436 --> 32:46.382 on is called the Comité de Unidad Campesina. 32:46.992 --> 32:50.314 And this organization, they've got ties to 32:50.603 --> 32:53.685 not just communism, the other groups do too, 32:53.829 --> 32:56.718 but this one has ties to guerrilla warfare. 32:57.986 --> 33:01.196 They were heavily involved in the guerrilla 33:01.758 --> 33:05.450 Marxist revolutions in Guatemala. And this 33:05.950 --> 33:09.530 organization was almost wiped out in the '70s and early 33:09.626 --> 33:13.208 '80s, and then they kind of reformed. And what they 33:13.320 --> 33:16.709 did is they decided to take their Marxist 33:17.209 --> 33:20.853 ideologies and latch them onto local indigenous organizations. 33:21.672 --> 33:25.607 So they brought in these indigenous peoples, and they made it their goal 33:26.427 --> 33:30.265 to promote the indigenous peoples as a way of promoting Marxism. 33:30.666 --> 33:33.887 And one of the things that they latched on to is something called 33:34.387 --> 33:38.390 a Mayan cosmology. The Mayan cosmovision is what 33:38.890 --> 33:42.668 they talk about. Now, the Mayan cosmovision is 33:42.941 --> 33:46.498 this holistic worldview where the universe is a— it's like a living, 33:46.626 --> 33:50.440 conscious entity that has all life. 33:50.713 --> 33:54.158 You know, all life comes from the universe, and all life is directed towards the 33:54.658 --> 33:59.645 universe, and thus all things must maintain a a harmonious and interdependent 33:59.677 --> 34:02.905 relationship. So because of that, 34:03.387 --> 34:06.632 they take that Mayan cosmovision where everything 34:06.744 --> 34:10.518 comes from the universe and goes back out to the universe, therefore we're all working 34:10.615 --> 34:14.421 together, which forms into a political ideology as well.

34:15.256 --> 34:17.698 And that's the communism that they're promoting with it. 34:18.597 --> 34:23.078 Not to mention, and then it's bad theology. I mean, there's no transcendent 34:23.141 --> 34:26.587 God. Nope. I mean, I mean, nope. Is it fair 34:27.087 --> 34:30.723 to say that this is a kind of earth worship? Well, it definitely 34:30.819 --> 34:34.202 is. In fact, they openly worship 34:35.067 --> 34:38.722 earth deities. I'll just give you a little sampling. 34:39.235 --> 34:42.746 In 2011, CUC admitted to invoking pagan deities 34:43.323 --> 34:46.737 as it opened its 10th National Assembly, and it said 34:46.865 --> 34:50.200 this extraordinary event began with the invocation of the Mayan 34:50.232 --> 34:54.368 deities so that the event would conclude with satisfactory 34:54.464 --> 34:58.070 results in favor of the peasant population and the 34:58.570 --> 35:02.316 protection of Mother Earth. And they had involved 35:02.816 --> 35:06.578 in this some sort of fire ceremony, which was also 35:07.078 --> 35:11.513 participated in by Monsignor Alvaro Ramazzini, 35:12.026 --> 35:14.477 who was later made a cardinal by Pope Francis. 35:15.374 --> 35:18.803 And they have these candles and these fires, 35:18.899 --> 35:23.514 and they've got colors that represent the different elements 35:23.562 --> 35:27.223 of the universe, and they have a shaman come in, and the shaman 35:27.255 --> 35:30.658 shakes a stick and invokes these spirit guardians to 35:30.787 --> 35:34.287 try and protect them somehow. But yeah, it's earth 35:34.383 --> 35:38.782 worship, it's shamanism, it's spiritism, 35:39.279 --> 35:42.298 where they're invoking spirits, spirits of the earth, spirits of the air, 35:42.426 --> 35:46.038 spirits of the elements. And there is no 35:46.744 --> 35:49.763 adoration or veneration towards God at all. 35:50.519 --> 35:54.773 And ultimately, they all become God. And when 35:54.869 --> 35:59.013 you really think about it, I mean, Teilhard de Chardin becomes kind 35:59.513 --> 36:03.022 of the priest prophet of 36:03.201 --> 36:06.025 this shamanistic religion within the Catholic Church. 36:07.096 --> 36:10.670 Yeah, that's— I had heard, I have to confirm this, but I had heard 36:10.799 --> 36:14.679 there was some movement not only for his theological 36:14.743 --> 36:18.673 rehabilitation, but they may have been promoting his cause as well. I know 36:18.690 --> 36:22.093 the the first is underway. I'm not sure about the 36:22.593 --> 36:26.005 second. Is there— I mean, aside from the Lepanto Institute, 36:26.021 --> 36:29.473 is there anyone else sounding the alarm and saying, 36:30.056 --> 36:34.021 have we thought about this? Are we sure this is something we really want 36:34.521 --> 36:37.502 to do? With regard to the World Meeting of Popular Movements? 36:37.746 --> 36:41.720 Yeah. Nobody, nobody has reported 36:42.220 --> 36:45.397 on this. No one. Well, suffice to 36:45.446 --> 36:50.596 say, that's— yeah, that's terribly disappointing. Sweet Mother. So, you've got this 36:50.692 --> 36:54.144 invocation of pagan divinities. Part of my fear is that, 36:54.529 --> 36:58.447 you know, thinking is hard, thinking well is harder, thinking well 36:58.543 --> 37:02.943 as a matter of habit is hardest of all, is, hey, if synodality 37:03.119 --> 37:07.118 is the magic word, and you've got popular and movement together, 37:07.471 --> 37:11.180 by golly, that sounds synodal too. Come on into our 37:11.244 --> 37:14.696 big tent and we'll all sing All Are Welcome. Are there attempts to 37:15.196 --> 37:18.915 link synodality with these movements? Well, yes. In fact, Don Matteo 37:18.947 --> 37:22.137 Ferrari, the coordinator for the World Meeting of Popular Movements, 37:22.153 --> 37:25.567 and Cardinal Czerny, both made it very clear that they wanted 37:25.743 --> 37:29.623 synodality to be at the center of these meetings. 37:29.687 --> 37:33.422 The whole purpose was to gather them together. And then when 37:33.454 --> 37:37.478 you— my goodness, I mean, I don't know if Pope Leo actually wrote 37:37.978 --> 37:42.014 his own speech or not, but he called these movements, he called the leaders 37:42.514 --> 37:46.137 of these movements, social poets and champions of humanity. 37:46.441 --> 37:49.377 He said that their cause is just. 37:49.794 --> 37:53.629 He said, your effort is ever more necessary. He said, 37:53.805 --> 37:57.720 I'm encouraged to see how popular movements, organizations of civil society, 37:57.752 --> 38:01.410 and the church are addressing these new forms of dehumanization. 38:02.068 --> 38:05.228 This makes you champions of humanity, witnesses to justice, 38:05.437 --> 38:08.774 and poets of solidarity. He even went so far 38:08.902 --> 38:12.287 as to say that your struggles under the banner of land, housing, 38:12.821 --> 38:16.638 and efforts for a better world deserve encouragement. And as the 38:17.138 --> 38:20.908 Church accompanied the formation of union leaders in the past, today we ought 38:21.408 --> 38:24.854 to accompany the popular movements. And these are Pope Leo's words. 38:25.307 --> 38:27.361 Okay, yeah, I believe you. 38:28.832 --> 38:32.614 I want to believe, I need to believe that someone 38:32.646 --> 38:36.116 just handed— I mean, he's a busy man. He obviously doesn't write all 38:36.616 --> 38:39.915 of his speeches. I really want to believe that somebody just handed him 38:40.415 --> 38:44.145 that, and then he read it as is. But there wasn't 38:44.225 --> 38:47.430 any correction or, you know, upon further 38:47.930 --> 38:51.597 reflection, the Holy Father also said— there was none of that after 38:51.613 --> 38:54.962 that speech, was there? No. In fact, we sent a copy of our 38:55.462 --> 38:59.465 report to the papal nuncio with a specific request for the nuncio 38:59.965 --> 39:03.391 to hand-deliver our report, all 144 pages of it, 39:03.872 --> 39:07.003 to Pope Leo. And at the end of our report, 39:07.389 -->

39:10.455 we made a very specific appeal to him directly, 39:10.680 --> 39:14.357 asking him to shut down the World Meeting of Popular 39:14.405 --> 39:18.130 Movements, to condemn the communist organizations 39:18.243 --> 39:21.968 that were in attendance there, and also to sanction and punish 39:22.883 --> 39:27.106 the prelates and priests who were involved in inviting those organizations to 39:27.235 --> 39:30.893 Rome to be a part of this World Meeting of Popular Movements. 39:31.470 --> 39:34.694 And to date, there's been no response. Well, 39:34.838 --> 39:38.285 I— you can't see my surprised face, but I'm worried. 39:38.782 --> 39:42.711 Surprised. No, I think they're— I'm gonna 39:43.211 --> 39:45.581 take a deep breath. I need to calm down as we come up to the 39:46.081 --> 39:49.318 break. I find this profoundly disturbing. 39:49.911 --> 39:53.743 And I can't imagine that John 39:53.775 --> 39:57.292 Paul and Pius XII and Leo XIII And 39:57.372 --> 39:59.697 Fulton Sheen are smiling upon this. 40:00.198 --> 40:03.185 Friends, we come back, we're going to continue our conversation with Michael Hitchborn of the 40:03.685 --> 40:07.547 Lepanto Institute. We're talking about popular movements, uh, having the 40:07.644 --> 40:11.621 ear of the Vatican in Rome, and they seem very strongly to be, 40:12.074 --> 40:15.680 uh, Marxist and pagan. What are we going to do about that? 40:16.199 --> 40:20.118 Be part of the conversation. Follow what we're following by following us on Gab. 40:20.507 --> 40:24.067 That's gab.com. The channel is The Catholic Hermit, 40:24.390 --> 40:28.799 and you can influence the conversation. Contact us at thestationofthecross.com/askfather. 40:30.840 --> 40:34.406 Comments, questions, suggestions, recommendations— we want to hear 40:34.906 --> 40:38.295 from you. Let's do this good work together. Back in just 2 minutes. Please do 40:38.795 --> 40:38.827 stay with us. 41:01.092 --> 41:04.311 Have a question or feedback about today's episode? 41:04.669 --> 41:08.083 Want to suggest a guest or a future topic? Go to 41:08.583 --> 41:12.531 thestationofthecross.com/askfather 41:12.822 --> 41:14.823 and help influence influence the conversation. 41:20.980 --> 41:24.290 Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus, 41:24.306 --> 41:27.536 your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world 41:28.036 --> 41:30.203 and the world to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross 41:30.220 --> 41:33.714 Studios, your local radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app, 41:33.730 --> 41:36.723 and we proclaim the fullness of truth with clarity and charity. 41:37.127 --> 41:40.341 My returning guest today is president of Lepanto Institute, and Michael Hitchborn. 41:40.774 --> 41:43.307 We're talking about walking with revolutionaries, 41:43.756 --> 41:47.715 Marxist popular movements that seem to have gained a foothold 41:48.373 --> 41:51.867 in the Vatican. Michael, you've documented— I want to emphasize 41:51.979 --> 41:55.618 documented— something really disturbing. These popular 41:56.118 --> 41:59.578 movements that are associated with liberation theology, 41:59.594 --> 42:03.265 especially in Latin America, are fundamentally 42:03.457 --> 42:07.710 Marxist from a political point of view, are advocates 42:08.210 --> 42:11.566 for, you know, communism, socialism, the end of private 42:12.066 --> 42:16.193 property, the destruction of the family. They're pro-abortion. 42:17.286 --> 42:21.737 They're pro-rainbow advocacy. They're undoubtedly, 42:21.946 --> 42:25.384 many of them, profoundly pagan in the 42:25.464 --> 42:29.240 darkest way. I don't have a human suggestion. 42:29.304 --> 42:32.966 I don't know that I can call a meeting and make this go away 42:33.560 --> 42:37.555 in 10 steps. I, I think we're at 1 Peter 5 and 42:37.747 --> 42:41.165 Ephesians 6, and it's spiritual warfare in 42:41.277 --> 42:44.373 Fatima. What do you think? I think you're absolutely right. 42:44.871 --> 42:48.865 One of the things that we closed our report with was 42:49.443 --> 42:53.245 a quote from Saint James, because it seemed that he was speaking with foreknowledge 42:53.614 --> 42:56.566 about the true nature of the organizations that were participating there. 42:57.064 --> 43:01.217 Saint James said, You covet and have not. You kill and envy 43:01.474 --> 43:05.002 and cannot obtain. You contend and war and 43:05.082 --> 43:08.707 you have not because you ask not. You ask and receive not 43:09.207 --> 43:12.572 because you ask amiss, that you may consume, consume it on your 43:12.620 --> 43:16.533 own concupiscences. Adulterers, know you that, know you 43:16.565 --> 43:20.334 that you are not the friend, uh, know you not that 43:20.834 --> 43:24.951 friendship of this world is enemy with God? Whosoever therefore will 43:25.063 --> 43:28.637 be a friend of this world becometh an enemy of God. And the thing is, 43:29.053 --> 43:33.043 these popular movements, they're rebellious, they're envious, they're covetous, they're worldly, 43:33.476 --> 43:35.991 which is exactly what St. James was describing. 43:36.680 --> 43:40.013 And then our Lord's own words, he said, if the world hate you, 43:40.269 --> 43:44.499 know that it hated me before you. If you had been of the world, 43:44.676 --> 43:47.912 the world would love its own. But because you 43:48.412 --> 43:51.437 are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, 43:51.823 --> 43:55.050 Therefore the world hateth you. So when 43:55.195 --> 43:58.004 we have— I mean, you just look at the very name, 43:58.229 --> 44:01.842 popular movements. Mm-hmm. What does that say to you? 44:02.018 --> 44:05.551 It says worldly love. It says these 44:06.051 --> 44:09.854 are people who love themselves and they love those who love them because they 44:09.886 --> 44:13.258 are worldly. And by their 44:13.758 --> 44:17.240 very nature, we should be

rejecting them. Yes. Yes. And this is 44:17.416 --> 44:21.254 where I think we have to really have an examination of conscience, 44:21.511 --> 44:25.251 because look, we will We are all, all of us 44:25.444 --> 44:28.205 subject to the temptations of the world, the flesh, and the devil. 44:28.927 --> 44:31.881 Michael, you and I, and I bet everyone who listens to my voice, 44:32.363 --> 44:36.473 we live in a culture that is sick and sickening. So first, 44:36.778 --> 44:40.920 we have to examination— have to have an examination of conscience, get our 44:40.936 --> 44:44.724 own house in order, go to confession. But then I think 44:44.788 --> 44:48.497 we need to step up our commitment to spiritual warfare. We, we need 44:48.997 --> 44:53.107 to read more about Fatima, pray the the rosary, wear our brown scapular, our Miraculous 44:53.219 --> 44:55.051 Medal, First Fridays, 44:57.252 --> 45:00.715 First Saturdays. Can you talk about in 45:01.215 --> 45:04.870 your own life, if you're willing, you know, you've been looking under ugly rocks 45:04.984 --> 45:08.120 for a long time, and I've 45:08.153 --> 45:11.232 never heard you in any of our conversations, public or private, 45:11.280 --> 45:15.337 say an uncharitable word. How do you pray 45:15.643 --> 45:19.268 to sustain yourself in this work and not lose heart? Well, 45:19.284 --> 45:23.633 I pray the rosary daily with the family, and Our Lady made 45:24.018 --> 45:27.148 that request specifically, that we all pray the rosary every day. 45:28.175 --> 45:32.043 And, you know, I look at what's 45:32.543 --> 45:36.072 happening in the world, and especially within the Church, in the same way that 45:36.572 --> 45:39.811 a doctor looks at a patient who's sick. A doctor doesn't 45:40.311 --> 45:43.968 hate the patient because the patient is sick. The doctor hates the illness that's infecting 45:44.000 --> 45:47.982 the patient. And when the doctor is trying to find 45:48.175 --> 45:51.611 the problem and it eludes the doctor, you know, there are a 45:51.627 --> 45:55.159 lot of symptoms but no real cause, the doctor's 45:55.659 --> 45:59.285 frustrated. But when the doctor finds the cause, he rejoices. Why? Because now 45:59.398 --> 46:02.802 he can apply a remedy. And that's kind of the way that I look at 46:03.302 --> 46:06.543 the whole situation. There is a sickness that is invading the church. 46:07.281 --> 46:10.139 That sickness needs to be identified. It needs to be named. 46:10.637 --> 46:13.319 And that remedy needs to be applied. Now, 46:14.492 --> 46:18.282 that's up to the Fathers of the Church. I can't do 46:18.782 --> 46:22.362 that because I'm a simple layman. I can point out the problems, 46:22.378 --> 46:25.928 and I can say that there is a problem here. And just as we're all 46:26.428 --> 46:30.136 members of the body of Christ, what do we do? The body being 46:30.168 --> 46:34.312 a body, when the body stubs its toe, the whole body 46:34.424 --> 46:38.308 grabs the toe and shouts, ouch! Yes. Well, we're shouting 46:38.500 --> 46:42.541 ouch, and we're saying there's a pain here, and it needs to be 46:42.605 --> 46:45.892 examined and rectified. Right. And I think, you know, 46:46.037 --> 46:49.676 also don't shoot the messenger for acknowledging that there is a problem. 46:50.206 --> 46:53.348 And, you know, Mike, I always say, look, if we're wrong about 46:53.848 --> 46:57.405 this, in charity, show us where we're 46:57.421 --> 47:01.494 wrong. Show where, you know, Michael Hitchborn has gotten 47:01.510 --> 47:05.264 the wrong information, or Father McTague drawn the wrong conclusions 47:05.280 --> 47:07.400 from the information that Michael documented. 47:07.945 --> 47:11.944 But has— have you gotten any feedback from anybody important 47:12.444 --> 47:16.038 or official who said, hey, Michael, you got this all wrong, you're slandering good people, 47:16.359 --> 47:19.876 here's the good news? Have you gotten anything like that in response to this 47:19.988 --> 47:23.247 report? No. In, in fact, I have 47:23.360 --> 47:27.101 never seen such silence about any report that we've ever written 47:27.599 --> 47:31.755 as I've seen about this one. Our allies, 47:32.043 --> 47:35.876 our friends, they've reported, and you've had me on your program, and we're talking 47:35.940 --> 47:40.094 about it now. But I thought this was a massively 47:40.110 --> 47:43.750 explosive story, and every single 47:43.799 --> 47:47.487 mainstream news Catholic outlet, every mainstream 47:48.145 --> 47:51.528 secular media outlet has ignored this report. 47:51.673 --> 47:55.089 And it shocked me just how quickly they wanted 47:55.185 --> 47:58.550 to turn their— turn away and not pay any attention to 47:59.050 --> 48:02.492 this report at all. I know, I find that very 48:02.572 --> 48:06.546 deeply disturbing and very, very disappointing as 48:06.659 --> 48:10.633 well. Are there any more Popular Movement meetings scheduled 48:10.649 --> 48:14.414 for Rome anytime soon on the horizon? Well, they, they don't 48:14.914 --> 48:18.164 tend to schedule them except fairly shortly before the meetings happen, 48:18.581 --> 48:22.331 but we are keeping an eye on it. And if such 48:22.428 --> 48:26.330 meetings are scheduled and put forward, we'll be reporting on it 48:26.362 --> 48:29.075 and letting everybody know exactly what's going on. 48:29.894 --> 48:33.459 I know, I think this is really tremendously important. 48:33.924 --> 48:37.714 And I think especially because of the link 48:38.565 --> 48:42.065 to synodality, you know, because in 2027, 48:42.113 --> 48:45.421 and again in 2028, apparently having synods isn't 48:45.921 --> 48:49.368 synodal enough. There's also going to be ecclesial assemblies 48:49.963 --> 48:53.806 in 2027, 2028. And I just have to wonder, I think 48:54.306 --> 48:57.743 it's not unreasonable to wonder, are we going to see 48:58.277 --> 49:01.854 some of this brought in to the 49:02.354 --> 49:06.209 synod meetings? That, as you know, what the Spirit 49:06.709 --> 49:10.271 is saying now is got to be something 49:10.771 --> 49:14.265 with these popular movements. Michael, very quickly, where can people find your work? They go 49:14.765 --> 49:16.047 to our website, lepantoin.org. 49:22.923 --> 49:26.181 Sign up for our newsletter. You can follow us on X @lepantoinst, 49:29.081 --> 49:32.183 and I'm the only Michael Hitchborn on Facebook, and you can find me there. 49:33.195 --> 49:36.442 And I post a lot of things on my own personal Facebook page as well. 49:37.160 --> 49:40.680 Michael Hitchborn of the Lepanto Institute, I'm very grateful for your faith. 49:40.745 --> 49:44.191 I'm very grateful for your good work, and I do look forward to our next 49:44.691 --> 49:47.932 conversation. And please God, someday it will be a happy topic for both of us. 49:48.526 --> 49:51.625 Amen, Father. I'm Jesuit Father Robert McTeague, 49:51.641 --> 49:54.291 your host every day of The Catholic Current. You want to join us tomorrow? 49:54.708 --> 49:57.935 It's a Friday. You know what that means— another round of Let's Talk About This. 49:58.144 --> 50:01.291 You and me, we walk through a complex issue together. And you want to stay 50:01.791 --> 50:04.984 with us for that whole hour because we end up with Weekend Readiness, reviewing the 50:05.048 --> 50:08.212 headlines of the week in light of the upcoming Sunday scriptures so we all prayed 50:08.712 --> 50:12.531 up for Sunday Mass. After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com, 50:12.595 --> 50:15.983 get our resources list, download our audios, podcasts. Wherever you can 50:16.047 --> 50:19.532 find audio, you can find us. Take this to your family and friends. 50:19.596 --> 50:22.791 Together we'll take it to the whole world through the intercession of Our Lady of 50:23.291 --> 50:26.998 Mount Carmel. May Almighty God bless you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Go in peace, 50:27.142 --> 50:30.000 and please do pray for me, for I am a sinner.