บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Are We Ethically Failing Campers? with Jake Sorenson & Amanda Palmer - CampHacker #228

which we all slept on, right? 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.040 So it was like very Miss Hannigan sort of thing. 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:33.759 And all she had to do was keep us alive until 6:30. 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:35.759 That was the only promise that she made. 00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:36.319 Okay. 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:39.439 And that's really different from some of the work that we're doing. 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:40.959 So would you agree with that? 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.879 Do we have obligations that other businesses, similar similar businesses do not? 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:46.160 I would say yes. 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:51.600 I think, I think you're absolutely right, Chris, that we do have an ethical, a moral responsibility for our children. 00:04:51.680 --> 00:04:54.160 I would say the same thing with you know, teachers. 00:04:54.240 --> 00:05:01.839 You know, there's a certain contract when we send kids to school, we expect that they're going to learn and grow in certain ways and not just academically, right? 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:05.839 We expect that they're going to learn how to interact with their peers. 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.800 They're going to learn how to become better humans and function in this world. 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:14.000 And so a camp operates in as an educational space. 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:24.720 And so we have educational responsibilities, and we're teaching both the hard skills, you know, things like archery, how to start a fire and canoeing and different things like that. 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:28.319 And we're also teaching the soft skills, and that's where we really lean in. 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:33.680 And so I think that you're right, we do have that responsibility because parents are expecting that of us. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:52.160 They're expecting that their kid is going to have a certain experience based on our marketing, you know, with whether that be with the outdoors, with other people, meeting new people, if if we're based on the mission of our camp and the values that we hold, and they're going to expect that their kid comes home from having grown in certain ways. 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:52.720 Okay. 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:54.000 Yeah. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:06:04.879 I would agree for sure with Jake and with you about having an ethical obligation, 100%, especially if we're saying, if we're making promises to them in our mission and our marketing. 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:18.160 And I think that um, like educators, camp fits into an ecosystem of positive youth development, but I think it's a really unique place for character development, for moral development, like you talked about. 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:20.879 My background is in a lot of moral development. 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:23.279 My doctoral advisor does sports ethics. 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:25.680 She's an expert nationally or whatever. 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:43.920 And so I think that at camp, one of the biggest things is that for

our staff, especially if you're at overnight camp, you don't get to go home at the end of the day, take off your staff hat and go get wasted or whatever it is that maybe you would do that you wouldn't do in front of your kids. 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.399 You may be sleeping right there in the cabin and dealing with each other at our worst. 00:06:48.480 --> 00:07:00.639 And that's when character development and moral development and all of that, I would go further than saying soft skills and saying like essential development of your identity. 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:02.800 So I love that we all agree. 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:04.240 I love that we all agree. 00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:06.399 And thank you for listening to Camp Hacker. 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:07.199 We're correct. 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:12.079 No, I'm glad I'm glad that you agree because I think I want to step into this next part really carefully. 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:13.600 If that's true, right? 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:21.839 If we're right, which I suspect that we are, just generally, as an industry, are we holding, are we keeping that promise? 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:23.600 Where do we fall short? 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:25.279 I'm I'm talking generally. 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:30.000 Like I can you brought up staff, Amanda. 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:30.720 This is my thing. 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:33.279 Like I I think about staff all the time. 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:40.079 I'm a staff trainer, constantly trying to find a ways to ways to innovate staff training and prepare people for what's coming. 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:42.240 And I'm really, I'm really keen into what you said. 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:44.399 Like they don't get to go home and take their hat off. 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:50.879 So when we hire them for this job, in some ways, we are actually making promises to them as well that we were gonna take care of their mental health. 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:52.800 They don't, they're not off, right? 00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:03.279 So that's just one way I think I can get into that, but I think it's one way sometimes we fail to keep on our promise, particularly the staff, before we even get to the parents and campers. 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:04.800 But that's the first thing that comes to mind. 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:05.519 What about for you? 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.439 Like just generally, where do you think the industry is falling down if this is an ethical obligation? 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:22.720 I can, I can I can say one of my I've had experiences at a variety of camps, being kind of on site, a little bit of a fly on the wall without the responsibility to put out fires, but also there with my little yellow notepad. 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:46.399 And I've seen camp directors making assumptions about the values, kind of the interpretation of the camp's values when they come in and assuming that the staff are in alignment with what the camp means about what that value is, if that makes sense. 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:56.159 Like I've seen real crossing of boundaries when staff members think that they're like supporting the LGBTQ campers. 00:08:56.399 --> 00:09:02.720 Staff think this is how we do this, and the the directors are saying, oh, that was not at all. 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.039 That was not what we meant by that. 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:28.799 And so I think I feel like failing is a is a hard word to hear if you're trying to train staff, but I think there are missed opportunities in in some different areas, and clarifying what your values mean in practice, I think is most essential for for that, for what the situation that I'm kind of referring to. 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:30.159 I agree with that, Amanda. 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:32.399 I think mission clarity is is super important. 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:46.080 Being clear up front when you're hiring your staff, what's your campus about, what you're trying to do, what what are your goals, being being clear with your staff, but also being clear with the parents who are sending their kids so that there is that that contract and they understand what you're all about. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:51.200 I appreciate the conversation and and like you, Chris, I want to be a little careful about how we approach this. 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:51.759 Absolutely. 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:57.600 Because I mean, you know, you you kind of titled this and you you you you started with a very provocative question. 00:09:57.919 --> 00:09:58.799 Are we failing? 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:00.960 Are we you know ethically failing our campers? 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.440 And I because I don't know if you noticed, but I'm dramatic. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.360 So I've never I've never noticed, my friend. 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:10.080 Sarcasm, excuse me, everybody. 00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:11.279 So don't use that at camp. 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:12.720 Don't overuse sarcasm at camp. 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:17.600 So in terms of the the the that core question, are we ethically failing our campers? 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:25.519 I I want to be really careful with that because ultimately I I think no, as an industry, we're not, but I think in some ways we fall short. 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:29.279 And I think I think there are specific things that we can do to be better. 00:10:29.440 --> 00:10:39.279 And I think sometimes we're succeeding and we're not getting out of the knocking it out of the park, and we're doing so great with the moral and ethical formation of our young people, character formation of our young people. 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.720 And sometimes we're a little lax in some of these things. 00:10:43.039 --> 00:11:05.519 And so I think being intentional about this and bringing this in front of people is good because having that in the front of our mind that we have this ethical responsibility for these campers and their development because camp camp is fundamentally a developmental space

that is unique from other spaces. 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:20.960 And so these campers are coming and they're they're they're they're leaving their normal everyday lives, and they're they're very vulnerable, right, to manipulation, they're very vulnerable to suggestion, they're building these strong relationships with these young adults, with these other campers. 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:34.799 And if we're not careful about who we're surrounding them with and the environment that we're we're putting them in, and the things that we're teaching intentionally and unintentionally, then we could be leading them down a path that we don't intend. 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:45.039 And we need to understand this what's at stake when when a young person is coming to camp, whether it's for the first time or not the first time, they're in a vulnerable state. 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:50.480 And and it really is a place that they they could be manipulated in in in different ways. 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.960 And so making sure it's a safe space is priority number one for us. 00:11:55.039 --> 00:12:06.399 And that's what we talk about in you know in our work at Sacred Playgrounds is that that camp must be a safe space, physically safe, emotionally space, safe, socially safe, spiritually safe. 00:12:06.639 --> 00:12:14.720 It's gotta be a safe space to ask questions, to, as Amanda was saying, to explore your identity and a place that's both affirming and challenging. 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:21.039 You know, as as we talk about who is this person in front of me and how do I make sense of this other? 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:23.919 How do I make sense of who I am and who I am becoming in this world? 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.399 Those are important questions that your campers are asking. 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:36.559 And because they're asking these questions, because they're in this time of development and formation, we do have the moral obligation that you are referring to, Chris, to attend to that and be intentional about how we're doing it. 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:42.720 The must in your sentence, like I love the intensity of it, but it's doing a lot of work, right? 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:44.159 We must do it. 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:45.039 Agreed. 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.960 I mean, that's easy for that's easy for us to say sitting here on our podcast. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:55.440 It's easy to say, but we uh we all cut corners and we all cut corners. 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:59.200 And not I will say I don't cut many, but we do cut corners. 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:03.519 And when we do, sometimes I wonder, oh God, am I are we feeling the kids? 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:15.360 I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I know actually, I want to go back to something you said, Amanda, because this is where this thought came about values, like grinding your your situation down into values, grinding. 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:23.600 I wonder how many staff members, I'm

gonna give everyone an idea, how many staff members know the mission of the camp that they work at? 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:30.559 I would, I mean, I would just offer your staff a bonus, like at the end of training week, just be like, hey everyone,$100. 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:32.799 If you can tell us what the mission is. 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.799 And if if everyone knows it, great, you're out a lot of money, but you did a great job. 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:41.679 If no one can say it, this is where, and I know ethically failing is super dramatic. 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:46.080 It was meant to be, but this is one of those times where I'm like, what are we doing then? 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:52.720 If you got to the end of training week and no one knows the mission, then it's that must. 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:57.360 Like we must do these things, then we can't possibly do them, right? 00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:59.039 We can't possibly do them. 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.799 And so is it about just drilling the drilling your staff on the mission? 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:05.519 No, because we've tried that and it doesn't work. 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:06.639 It just doesn't. 00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:07.840 They just treat it like women. 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:10.480 It's just one more thing they have to remember. 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:15.679 Your mission should be in action, your mission should be reflected on. 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.399 Talk about your mission should should be. 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:29.200 Well, I think that a huge part of getting your programs and your mission to happen as you want them to is that staff buy-in. 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:39.360 And so you've gotta reflect on what your mission and your intended outcomes, which are often your mission, like what those mean, what those look like. 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:46.320 And a lot of your outcomes are are happening during camp in in my experience. 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:51.759 Like we want our campers to have experienced this by the end of camp. 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:56.879 We also want them to go on and change the world and have this change their life forever. 00:14:57.200 --> 00:15:01.360 But thinking about at camp, what do they need to do? 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.039 What do they need to experience? 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:05.440 What do we need to provide for them? 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:14.159 That's that's how I'm working with a lot of like the character grantees to develop what is your character curriculum. 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:20.879 That is what are those core things they need to experience to get to that development? 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:27.919 And we're not gonna have perfect character by the end of camp, but what are the things that do build it? 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:32.159 And so practicing that in staff training is essential. 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:36.000 Practicing the reflection, the speaking it. 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:41.759 And so, yeah, I I don't love the idea of

offering a hundred dollars if they can say your mission. 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:59.120 I know you're teasing, but but I think that you I think your staff, whoever's training your staff, should owe a hundred dollars if your staff can't can't tell you in their own words what the mission means and what it looks like. 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:04.320 Because that means it just wasn't communicated, it just wasn't communicated fully enough. 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.919 You know, Jake, I can't stop thinking about the way you said we must do these things. 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:10.559 We have to keep it physically safe, emotionally safe, socially safe. 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.799 Exclusive for camppacker listeners. 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.039 Grab UltraCamp's free guide, the parent experience checklist. 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.120 Practical steps to simplify registration and keep families coming back. 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:26.799 Download at ultracampmanagement.com slash camphacker. 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:31.840 Parents don't want clunky processes, and you don't want constant phone calls. 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:46.879 Ultracamp helps you simplify registration with mobile-friendly forms, offer payment plans that work for your families, reduce calls and emails with automated reminders, and keep parents engaged with built-in communication tools. 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:54.639 Ultracamp helps you create smooth, stress-free parent interactions so your team can focus on camp, not customer service. 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.879 Learn more at ultracampmanagement.com slash camp hacker. 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:04.559 I don't know how to phrase this, so I'm just gonna say it, okay, and then we can workshop it live on the podcast, right? 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:06.319 Let us have it, let us have it. 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.160 Do we aren't we? 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:08.960 Look. 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:11.279 Ah! Okay, look, I'm just gonna be honest. 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:12.880 We lie to parents a lot. 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:14.799 I think a lot of camps lie to a lot of parents. 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.319 And I'm just I'm just gonna put it out there. 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.920 Not every camp is safe for every kid, but every camp will say that they are. 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:22.799 And I've worked with camps who like contact me specifically. 00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:26.160 Like, we want to make our camp safe for trans kids or safe for queer kids. 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.799 And I go in there and I'm like, do you think it's a safe space now? 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:30.079 And they're like, pretty much. 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.160 And then we actually walk through it and it is not. 00:17:32.319 --> 00:17:37.039 And I was like, You've been you've had trans and queer kids at this camp and you're experimenting on them. 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:44.160 But I don't know if that is appropriate given the relationship that I'm trying to have with these parents. 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:49.519 Like when it comes to like the ethical mission, Jake, you say we must do things, we must do things. 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.160 How do we and again I don't know how to ask this? 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.279 Can we as a parent, right? 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:56.240 You're both parents, right? 00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:05.839 As a parent, how honest can they be with you about their struggle to hit those musts before you are turned off as a customer? 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:07.119 Do you understand what I'm saying? 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.519 Like, how can we how can we be a little bit more realistic about what we can do? 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:17.759 About what's just possible in this context, taking care of this many kids and educating them. 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.640 How much transparency do we need? 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:23.519 That's a question for both of you, but Jake, I sort of like pointed at you. 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:24.319 So yeah. 00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:29.440 No, I think I think we can we can be pretty honest because the stories are out there. 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:34.160 The stories of not everybody's gonna have an amazing, wonderful life-changing experience at camp. 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:37.920 In fact, a minority of kids are gonna have a life-changing experience, right? 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:42.640 A lot of them are gonna have a very positive experience, but there's gonna be a fraction that don't have a positive experience. 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:49.599 For for some some sometimes that's out of our control, but sometimes it's because we failed in a certain moment, right? 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:57.440 We shouldn't think of that as we're failures, but are there opportunities to improve um the way that we do things? 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.880 Is there a learning opportunity for our staff, but also for these campers? 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:10.400 Um, and are we following up and following through effectively as we communicate with those parents what happened and what we're going to be doing differently because of that? 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:14.480 And so we can't foresee every situation. 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:16.880 Um, and we're not always gonna be our best selves. 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:32.799 And we can't expect that our young adult summer staff, these 19, 20-year-old, 18-year-olds, are gonna be their best selves all the time when they're short on sleep, when they're when they're frustrated, when something's going on back at home and they can't deal with it because they're they've got this job that requires them to be at camp all the time. 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:39.920 So, how can we, when challenges come up, how can we work through them and say that that's part of what we do at camp? 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:43.279 When somebody's feelings are hurt, we work through them. 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:53.119 We expect that some of these things are gonna happen, but because when we put people together

that come from different spaces, we put them in the same place and we say, Okay, we're gonna be together and we're gonna be a community. 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:55.119 Communities have friction, right? 00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.240 Camp is messy, people are gonna get messed up, you know. 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.480 I mean, but there's gonna be physically, you know, you're gonna get dirty, you know. 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.359 You might get a bump on the head or a or a bump on the elbow. 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.119 There, there and and emotionally and socially some challenges. 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:19.440 And we expect there to be some of these challenges, and we ex and and that's gonna result in some people feeling uncomfortable or feeling hurt. 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.400 And the question is now, how do we work through that? 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.480 Yeah, it might be a misunderstanding, but it might not be a misunderstanding, right? 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:33.920 It might be something that somebody did that is against your policy or isn't is not what you would have hoped that they had done or said. 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.920 And then how do we work through that towards reconciliation and forgiveness? 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.039 Because that's one of those key things that we learn at camp. 00:20:41.359 --> 00:20:46.640 We learn how to work through these things, we learn how to work with people that we might not otherwise hang out with. 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:53.599 We don't just stay in our silos and say, I'm gonna just be, I'm gonna find a community that agrees with me. 00:20:54.160 --> 00:21:01.119 We put people that don't always agree with each other together, and we think that that creates better societies. 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:03.759 So, and Amanda, I'm turning this towards you then. 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:14.400 Like it's the same exact question, but before you talk as like a camp person, I want you to talk as a parent about how much of that transparency and honesty you could tolerate before you're like, not this program. 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.000 Can you speak on that? 00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:23.279 Absolutely, and I have I have some very significant personal experiences with this, with as a parent. 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:29.920 I've got a I'm in I'm in deep red Idaho, but a little blue dot for the most part in Moscow. 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:36.640 But I've got a kid who's incredible and he's trans, and he's gone to several different camps. 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:47.839 And Idaho is not the best place for handling bathrooms and things like that, and pronouns, and you've got a you've got a varied community here. 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:57.599 So, what I would say, because we have dealt with what's going to happen with this ahead of time, talking about like what's a bathroom situation? 00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.200 Where is he changing for the pool? 00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.599 Like that. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.720 kind of thing. 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:02.079 And I mean he's young. 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:02.720 He's nine. 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.480 And so this is like age eight, age seven talking about this stuff. 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:21.519 And so what I have found as a parent where that deal breaker would be is, and a lot of this, Jake, you just addressed, is what are they going to do when I mean what did they do when something rough happened? 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:33.599 But also what else are they doing about everything other than my kids' gender identity in terms of like what else is happening at camp so that my kid still wants to go back? 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:37.599 Like there's a part of the camp experience that's a struggle for him. 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:47.279 And what else is happening that makes him still feel safe, still feel supported as a as a human, as a kid to do all the cool things. 00:22:47.440 --> 00:23:01.200 And so like when, because I'm not a camp director and haven't been one, but I can feel from camp directors how deeply they feel it if they think they failed a camper or a staff member. 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:06.640 And there is one experience but there's also the rest of the experience. 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:17.039 And so you may be struggling in that one area helping particular campers of color, campers of a particular gender identity or life experience or something. 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:27.920 But what else are you doing to to provide the rest of the safety of the of the love and joy and making them want to come back? 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:35.119 So for me as a parent of a very vulnerable child, like I'm also paying attention to everything else that's happening. 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:45.200 So it's the intentions to making amends and it's and how hard are you trying otherwise to do everything you do have the knowledge and skills already about. 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:48.079 So for me, yeah. 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:50.160 That was epic. 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:58.400 I when you were talking I was so pulled into that no that that's really very powerful. 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:07.279 Thank you for sharing that by the way and I certainly didn't just so everyone knows I did not ask Amanda to come in here and talk about her family but thank you very much for sharing that because I think that will help people. 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.200 I think it's people need to hear that for sure. 00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:28.240 I just think that people feel so horrible camp directors and leaders and counselors when they know like oh that hurt somebody and because you have such a heart for kids and not always the experience and knowledge and training and skills and systems. 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:43.440 I know you've talked Chris about systems and and I love that and and Jake too you've got a whole structure of essential systems at camp for building these essential elements of a positive camp experience for growth. 00:24:43.599 -->

00:24:56.559 And so like yeah it's just not taking a keyhole look at camp it's it's how are you supporting the kid in every other way when you may be struggling in one way I guess. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:11.119 If you both had to give advice to like a camp about like hey you know if you were going to say like hey you must keep the kids physically safe emotionally safe like all these things this are things that you must do by dent of calling yourself a youth development organization. 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:12.640 What would you suggest? 00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:14.079 Like where would you suggest people start? 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:16.000 Like what are camps typically missing? 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:25.519 Is it this conversation about emotional and physical safety or is it about staffing supervision marketing operations in general? 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:42.240 Like where do you where where's like one thing you can say hey listen one codify your values two what is it I would pick up where's I mean the first thing that come to my head I mean like there's so many things right there's so many things to talk about and it would depend on the context. 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:55.200 I am picking one I'm just letting you know that it's not the the end all be all but processing teaching your staff how to process things specifically conflict resolution. 00:25:55.599 --> 00:26:06.240 You know and learning how we can resolve challenges interpersonal conflicts in a way that honors the individual and isn't punitive. 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:12.880 And so this is something that we can do and we can teach at camp because we're putting people in uncomfortable situations. 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:23.279 That's what we do and we are putting people in social situations where there's somebody's going to say something that they don't mean or something that is intentionally mean and they did mean to be mean. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.839 And then how do we respond to that? 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:32.400 That becomes the key not preventing it from happening I don't think bubble wrapping the kids at camp is what we want to do. 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:52.000 And we can be honest with parents about this too we're we're putting them in situations that may be uncomfortable sometimes and we are going to commit ourselves to when those things happen, when real feelings come up when it's tears of sadness and not tears of joy at camp that we're equipped to move forward with that and deal with that in a in a positive way. 00:26:52.319 --> 00:27:04.079 And so learning how to process difficult situations whether that's low ropes challenge course or it's something that just comes up because those things will come up and they're designed that camp is designed that way. 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:16.240 I'm gonna I'm gonna build off of that but I want Amanda I want you to first I'm gonna I need a minute well I would 100% amen to Jake's thing about reflection and processing. 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:28.079 I think also one thing I would zoom in on I think that respect is one of the absolute core values for camp and there's so much to respect. 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:43.119 And one thing I've seen is that sometimes camp staff know what respect looks like with one age group and they maybe don't know what respect looks like with younger age groups or or vice versa. 00:27:43.279 --> 00:28:03.440 And so I think that within staff training again I think I said this before but not making assumptions about like yes we want to respect all of our campers our whole community but what does that look like what does that look like at bedtime what does that look like at mealtime? 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:48.000 What does respect look like with each of these age groups and let's practice the words and actions practice practice practice like I have found that the things that have a core curriculum at camp like you've got leave no trace training mental health first responder wilderness first responder great you're gonna see those in practice because they got a chance to put them into action you want them to respect the kids did they practice did did you practice the words and the actions I love that that'd be one thing I don't emphasize I'm I'm what I want to say is the perfect union of what you both said plus like just some rando stuff one I think about think about transparency and parents just want to go back there for a second. 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:53.119 I think one way that camps can improve is be really clear with parents about what they cannot handle. 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.359 I think that's super empowering. 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:15.119 We'd love to be able to handle your kid but these are the ways in which that we are not set up to handle the kid because one every break every failure like every failure is tough but like like a camp break a kid goes home for homesickness or a parent pulls their kid out I always think that's not the end of the interaction that's not the end of our relationship. 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:40.000 If you apply for the camp and your kid has emotional issues that I know that we can't set up or we're gonna burn staff unnecessarily to take care of rather than doing that approaching the parent say listen our program isn't set up to do that for this reason, this reason and this reason I can recommend these other camps but also I'd recommend these questions to ask of all the other camps that you call because I still want to be seen as a a helpful person. 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:47.440 Listen if I'm taking on youth development and I'm taking on the ethical responsibility of helping you raise your child then that's part of it. 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:54.799 I think this is sometimes because we're also we're also businesses this gets a little like hey you're not my client you're not my customer see you later. 00:29:56.160 --> 00:30:01.440 I think and this goes back to values I think that is part of the value for me of camp,

right? 00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:06.799 We're partnering with people to help raise better kids, even if that kid is not appropriate for our camp. 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:11.920 So that's the one thing I think a lot of camps could do better on that. 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:22.480 And also admitting to parents like we would love to have your trans camper, but we're only two years into introducing that to our staff training and we want to say like maybe try us again in two or three years. 00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.799 We'll be ready then but we're not ready now. 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:26.240 I think that is so powerful. 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:30.640 And let me tell you something that parent will sign up their kid two to three years from now. 00:30:30.799 --> 00:31:37.359 They will because you you're telling them what your values are you know what I mean so I think last looks awesome anybody want to say anything else before we we move on i i love this topic I I think we don't talk about it enough but that's just me thanks for having us on to talk about it listen that's a fun conversation we could talk a long time we could go on and on and I'm I have a whole I'm looking whole document of like hooks and questions and I'm like no no no we have to wrap it up but uh we can always talk about this again if there is public outcry we can talk about it again about our missions and and what it means but right now it's time for tool of the week tool of the week so who's gonna go first there's that let's see eeny meeny miny Amanda all right so I had a hard time coming up with a tool of the week I'm not a camp director but I am a person who is reluctantly adopting AI a little bit. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:32:23.200 So I grew up reading very impressionable age a lot of sci-fi so I'm like is it gonna take over the world if I use it little nervous also from a family of journalists and writers I'm doing a lot of writing as a student as a researcher and so I've found that Microsoft co-pilot wants to write my articles for camping magazine wants to write my dissertation I don't want it to but what I found so my tip and tool of the week is to figure out how to get your AI friend to ask you great questions like say what should I be answering in this thing I'm writing and it can give you great questions without writing it for you and you're freaking out about plagiarism like I do. 00:32:23.920 --> 00:33:05.680 AI is a great thought partner people look at it as like the scribe but it is great to bounce ideas off of and structure your thinking I love that I'm gonna go next because mine's very quick and Jake you're gonna bring it home i I've been traveling recently and I got my wallet stolen while I was in Mexico and I was going to be in Mexico for a month a month and a half I got stolen on day four no I don't have a tool per se but I do have a tip and trick which I'm not sure people are aware of I was freaking out I was borrowing money from people I was saying can you you know some shady guy approaches like I'll mean you$100 if you give it to me in pesos at the ATM we can go right now. 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:21.519 Like after a while I didn't feel comfortable did you know you can contact your bank say hey I lost my card and they will issue you a digital number that you can put on your phone so you can tap to pay which will draw on your account this was a lifesaver. 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:31.599 So I'm gonna share that with you that's my tool of the week is your bank and their awesome digital abilities to just give you money right on your phone. 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:45.440 Can't draw from an ATM unless you can I don't know where the technology is going but you can certainly tap to pay and I look forward to getting home soon and having access to like real cash and real cards but that's my team I'm so sorry about that. 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:50.880 You know what though it all worked out because I was in I was on the beach while everyone was shoveling out their cars. 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:59.759 So I think I'm still winning I guess Jake your tool of the week and a tech bro that I know says tap to pay is actually more secure than your credit card. 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:06.000 So for sure what that's worth until until the news says that there's a breach and all of our passwords are available to the Russians. 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:12.719 I can't I don't know a lot about tech when it comes showing your age now anyway. 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:22.880 All right my tool of the week is a website and resourcing company that works with parents and so remember that the parents are our primary customer at camp. 00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:30.880 We sometimes think it's the campers but it's the parents and and so equipping the parents and giving the parents tools and understanding what they're what they're working with is really important. 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:36.800 And so look for tools that you can provide to the parents you don't always have to produce these tools. 00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:53.920 And so one of the tools that I use and and provide to parents a lot of times is called the parent queue it's theparentqcue.org and it's got they've got a whole bunch of resources there's a t-shirt that I got my wife that talks about raising resilient wonderful humans and things like that. 00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:59.920 And it's got stages of youth development for those who work with different age groups and some tips of working with them. 00:35:00.079 --> 00:35:07.119 And they've got like great interactive things for parents so 12 affirmations to speak over your kids love it. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.960 10 ways to engage your elementary schooler over the summer love it. 00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:33.199 So a lot of these these tools and tricks that are directly for parents to help them in this really challenging task called parenting because you guys parenting's tough parenting's really tough and sometimes we blame the parents for their anxieties and things like that but it's a tough world to parent in so give them a break and remember that they're your primary customer and resource and equip them. 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:40.159 And partner with them partner with them always partner with them because you're working you're working together on their children other people's children. 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:40.719 Amen. 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:46.000 So you guys are great and everyone listening also thinks you're great. 00:35:46.239 --> 00:36:15.599 Amanda if people want more of your greatness is there a way they can follow up with you online email tell us how can the how can the people find you and your greatness absolutely they can email me at acpalmerconsulting at gmail dot com or amanda c palmerconsulting dot com is my website I'm on LinkedIn I see a lot of mutual friends if you're in the camp world yeah lots of ways to get in touch with me. 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:22.079 Jacob if people want to chase you down in the middle of the night how can they find you? 00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:41.039 Yeah yeah the best place to go is sacredplaygrounds.com sacred playgrounds it's plural dot com and then we have a podcast called the Sacred Playgrounds podcast you can listen to that wherever you get are getting this podcast and I'm of course on LinkedIn and and the social media platforms too so there's lots of different ways to get a hold of me but going to the website's the easiest way. 00:36:41.440 --> 00:37:07.199 Cool and if you're looking for me I'm on Instagram at planetchris one the number one or you can email me planetch at gmail.com or just open your door and holler you don't know I might be nearby holla before I go I want to thank the sponsors of this week's episode as well as our editor Ryan Vandatoorn and GoCamp Pro's executive producer of podcasting the Matt Wilfred. 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:35.519 Thank you Amanda thank you Jake and thanks for the evening friends see ya thanks Chris thanks for having us the Camp Hacker Podcast is brought to you by Beth and Travis Allison Summer Camp Leadership Training and Marketing Consultants thanks for listening Camp Hacker is bringing your world into focus