บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ From Navy SEALs to Reality TV: The Science of Peak Performance with Dr. Steven Stein

emotional intelligence? 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:29.680 So the definition's been uh changing a lot since we started using it 25 years ago. 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:33.759 So there's several different ones, but they all have at least three things in common. 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:41.120 The first is uh the ability to be aware of emotions, whether it's your own emotions or other people around you. 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:49.759 Uh the second important thing is the ability to manage emotions, whether you're managing your own or trying to sort of manage other people. 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:56.960 You know, someone is maybe angry around you and you're trying to calm them down, the ability to sort of manage those emotions. 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.479 And thirdly, the the ability to use emotions. 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:09.759 Uh we we've worked a lot with professional athletes, for example, and and performers, and the ability to muster up the emotions you need to perform in a certain situation. 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.599 There's an emotional component uh that we find is really important. 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:21.520 So those those three aspects are probably uh included in all the different definitions of emotional intelligence. 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:22.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:29.439 And what what are some of the obvious challenges that that get in the way of people being more emotionally intelligent? 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.039 I immediately think of sort of a lot of our audience are going to be from a business context. 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:38.080 And I'm guessing just the general pace of life often gets in the way of that as much as anything else. 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:41.199 Yeah, that the pace of life, uh stress. 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:45.599 I mean, generally people are are either over-emotional or underemotional. 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.000 So you can be over-emotional when things just get to you too easily. 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:56.000 You just lash out at people, your anger, uh, your impulse control is just not in control. 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:58.479 So that's one thing that we find with people. 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.800 And the other is under-emotion. 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:08.400 Uh, when you uh don't use the right amount of emotion to sort of guide your thoughts, guide your thinking, help you make decisions. 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:14.400 Uh, if you ignore your emotions, we find that people sometimes get into trouble for doing that as well. 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:23.279 And and how we use our emotions, I'm assuming a lot of that is based upon sort of socialization as as we're growing up. 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:29.920 A lot of it is socialized, but the great thing about emotional intelligence is that there's a training component. 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:34.399 We can actually help people do better in terms of using their emotions. 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:45.920 So whether you want to motivate yourself to get a project done or or uh present in front of a group of people, uh, you can learn how to better uh use your emotions in those particular situations. 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.000 So some people are better at it naturally. 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:55.920 They grow up uh interacting with a lot of people, learning what works, what doesn't work, and they they maximize that learning. 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:58.560 Uh of course, we know some people that just never learn. 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.519 They just yell at everybody no matter what's going on, right? 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:07.040 And and they just wonder why aren't I getting things done or why don't my people follow what I want to do? 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:11.920 Well, you know, you you you don't do a good job of managing them, basically. 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:12.879 Yeah, yeah. 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:18.720 I i in the work that I do as a coach and therapist, I often find that the one that people struggle with the most is anger. 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:27.199 And I and I think some of it is, you know, broad sort of cultural views of anger, but a lot of people tend to see anger as being a particularly bad thing. 00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:37.120 And what that often means is that behaviors come out indirectly or they come out in big explosions because they're not addressed on a on a little and often basis. 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:39.040 Is that is that something you find? 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:40.720 Absolutely. 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:43.680 Uh anger is is we could do a whole day on anger. 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:50.319 Uh anger is something that uh it really it really helps us get ahead if we learn how to sort of manage that anger. 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:55.439 There's nothing wrong with being upset about someone or something that's gone on in your life. 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:58.399 The question is, how do you manage all that emotion? 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:06.319 And uh like you mentioned, some people just can't manage it well, they just lash out, and that causes even more problems. 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:09.120 And other people have techniques in terms of managing. 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:18.160 I may be really angry at something you said, but I can sort of take a quick time out, calm myself down, and then deal with what it is that upset me in the first place. 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.040 So um we all get angry at times. 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:22.399 It's a human emotion. 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:23.920 We can't help doing that. 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:29.680 But some of us are much better at managing that anger, at using it in a constructive way. 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.439 Anger is usually, like most emotions, is a signal, right? 00:06:33.680 --> 00:06:37.920 It's a signal that something that you've done or said, I don't like. 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:43.519 Uh so rather than just reacting to what you've done, I want to sort of calm down and strategize. 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:45.199 Well, how can I

change that? 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.920 Or use what tactics can I use to sort of shift in a different direction? 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.319 So uh so anger is kind of good and bad. 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:56.480 Uh on the one hand, it alerts us to a situation that we want to change. 00:06:56.639 --> 00:07:00.319 But on the other hand, if we don't manage it well, it gets us into a lot of trouble. 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.160 And you mentioned a moment ago that word reacting. 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:06.160 I guess that plays a big part, isn't it? 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:16.879 If you're self-aware, you're more likely to notice the buildup of these things and and effectively put a pause in place that allows you to think about what you want to do with that anger or whatever emotion it might be. 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:18.000 Absolutely. 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:21.120 And as and as a good coach, I'm sure that's the kind of thing you do, right? 00:07:21.199 --> 00:07:27.040 You you alert people to start uh identifying those emotions before they get out of control. 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:45.199 So if I feel myself sort of getting to the boiling point because of something you're doing, I learn to sort of stop my thoughts or change my thoughts or reinterpret what you're saying, or take a time out, count to 10, and then come back to it uh when I can be more calm in terms of dealing with what it is I don't like. 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:51.120 And I'm intrigued by some of the the organizations that you you you mentioned earlier. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:08:03.920 I don't know how much you you're you're allowed to sort of share on a podcast without having to kill us, but people like the Navy SEALs, we always have a romantic view of the Navy SEAL, you know, always sort of alerts people when they when they hear the Navy SEALs mentioned. 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:06.720 What kind of things do you do with with with people like that? 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:21.920 Uh with them, the work was around emotional intelligence and it was really, again, about uh being more in tune, understanding your emotions, how they affect your performance, whether it's military or even uh dealing with your peers. 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:25.920 You know, uh it's a very strong peer culture. 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:32.480 Uh, you know, in order to be in one of those teams, uh, you're really dedicated to that team and to the people that you work with. 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:33.840 It's a tight squad. 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:36.879 I mean, your life depends on the people that you're with. 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.360 And um and a lot of it is what you know, what makes a good leader. 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:42.639 It's amazing. 00:08:42.799 --> 00:08:47.120 Uh I've discovered how progressive some of these military groups are. 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:57.679 Uh, a lot of people just think of them as kind of uh, you know, old, like not with it in terms of modern uh management techniques and so on. 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:03.279 We just think of the hierarchy, the old uh, you know, authoritarian types of rule. 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:04.879 But that's not what I found at all. 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:08.080 These people are extremely bright, well read. 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:15.360 Uh to be a Navy SEAL, you have to go through a lot, both uh in terms of intelligence and in terms of physical strength. 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.919 And some of them had just varied backgrounds. 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:23.440 Some of them were into like art history or uh English literature. 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:33.279 I mean, some of the backgrounds blew me away because you you see these guys and you just don't expect that they have this background knowing Shakespeare or some weird thing. 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:44.960 Uh, but again, they're extremely bright, they can read quickly and assimilate information, uh see a situation and size it up really quickly and know how to react, what to do with it. 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.399 Uh, and the interpersonal part is is extremely important as well. 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:52.879 And I guess as much as anything, they're living on top of each other for for extended periods of time. 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:58.720 And I guess that in itself, forget about sort of uh war zones or whatever else, that puts pressure on relationships, doesn't it? 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:00.480 So being able to be emotionally intentional. 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:07.200 Yeah, it's it can be tight living quarters, whether they're uh out on a mission or not. 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:12.960 Um but uh it I find them as an amazing group uh of people. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:14.799 Yeah, yeah. 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:19.120 And and it's it sounds like they're pretty receptive to to these things. 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:29.360 Um you know, you kind of uh I guess a lot of sort of military organizations, you often sort of think about the macho element, but not necessarily the touchy feel, feely part, so to speak. 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:31.759 It sounds like that's not not been your experience. 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:39.360 Uh no, I found a lot of really I found them very willing to more than some business executives, actually. 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:56.559 Uh, you know, I've worked uh I've spent time uh working on aircraft carrier with, you know, we have like 3,000 uh Navy people on an aircraft carrier and dealt with quite a number of different levels of uh of sailors um and pilots in those areas. 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:00.720 And I've found them in many, many ages more eager to learn. 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:02.720 You know, they're in a learning environment. 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:08.080 If you're in a high performance military unit, it's all about learning. 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:12.159 Every day is learning and rehearsal and practice on the aircraft carrier. 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:20.720 Every day was routines and learning and practicing and uh, you know, and

correcting mistakes and you know, just getting better and better. 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:23.600 So the openness was pretty amazing. 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:38.559 And in some of the work uh that we've done in terms of training in organizations using simulations, uh, a lot of what we've learned in those kinds of military situations, and the other area I work a lot, which we didn't get to yet, is reality TV. 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:56.399 The element of surprise and going through uh pressure situations and how to manage those uh is something that we've done in organizational training, and it really uh makes a difference in terms of people's ability to cope uh with difficult situations. 00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:57.200 Yeah, yeah. 00:11:57.440 --> 00:12:10.000 And and hearing you talk about the Navy and the Navy SEALs and organizations like that, it sounds like it makes a big difference when people put their egos to one side and are actually open to learning new things. 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.559 And I guess you know, a lot of a lot of environments you don't get that. 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:15.840 People like to be the smartest person or the person is right. 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:22.559 Yeah, and again, the situations I've been in, uh I've been in situations where I didn't know who the leader was. 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:25.840 I mean, that's how it was because they all uniform. 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:27.679 Yeah, in a good way. 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:28.559 In a good way. 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:37.759 I mean, they they do command respect or whatever and can give orders, but in an in a learning situation, uh you may not even know who the leader is. 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:40.559 Uh everyone contributes equally, no one's afraid. 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:44.159 Like we talk about psychological safety in the organizational world. 00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:53.279 Well, uh, some of that is built into some of the situations we've seen there where they're already have established that level of psychological safety where they can say what they want. 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:58.080 And again, you're dealing with life and death situations where they may be encountering those situations. 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.200 So uh the openness, the willingness to learn, to try new things. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.720 Uh I I really found it rewarding to work with these people. 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:07.120 Yeah. 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:07.679 Yeah. 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:14.639 I've I've worked a little bit with sort of firearms police, um, and and then sort of the other end of the scale, uh, traders. 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:23.200 And and and and often there's this tension that they these groups say, well, I want to be more emotionally intelligent, I want to be more effective in terms of how I use my emotions. 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:29.519 But there's also an element of what I do which is based on instinct, and and it is about making quick decisions. 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:31.519 How how how do you differentiate between those? 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:37.039 What are the sort of skills that can help you to make those sort of decisions in that in a moment? 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:44.240 So, instinct, you know, to me it's basically uh an accumulation of all your sort of life experience. 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:52.639 When you have a quick emotion about something, it usually reflects a lot of learning squished into milliseconds or seconds. 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:58.240 Um, so I think it's important to pay attention to those gut feelings that we have and help us. 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:09.600 If you have the luxury of uh more time, obviously you're much better off uh exploring cognitively, like thinking what's what's the benefit of this versus that, and sort of going through that process. 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:16.159 But uh, but always pay attention to your gut because your gut feel is telling you something, and it's usually for a reason. 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.320 And especially if you're a person who has a history of good decisions. 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:25.840 When I work with someone who's made a lot of good decisions, we know that their gut is kind of in the right direction. 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:33.519 You do sometimes get people who've made bad decisions, a lot of bad decisions, which means you know, their gut is telling them the wrong thing. 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:42.879 And it's a matter of seeing how their life experience or accumulated experience feeds into their brain, feeds into their thinking process. 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:44.799 And what are they taking away from it? 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:47.600 And maybe they're reading the wrong things from their gut. 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:54.559 You know, sometimes you get uh you want to go one way, but you say, Oh, no, no, because that's the first thing I thought of, I'm gonna do the opposite, right? 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:55.919 And you just blow it. 00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:03.039 Yeah, it's like we used to take multiple choice exams, and some people used to say, Oh, I just the first thing off that I see, I'm gonna check. 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.159 And other people say, Well, the first thing off, whatever it is, I'm not gonna check. 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.200 I'm gonna take the next thing because it was too impulsive. 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:14.799 So it's how we manage those impulsive thoughts or those uh intuitive thoughts that we have. 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.799 Yeah, and and and as you seem to be saying that, it's also specific to the individual. 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:22.960 Yeah, have they got a track history of good decisions or not? 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:29.120 Yeah, I like to see, you know, what their history has been, what are some of the major decisions they've made in their lives? 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:30.000 What are some minor? 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:31.200 We'll go over last week. 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:32.320 What have you decided

on? 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:34.240 What decisions were you happy with? 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:39.360 And are you a person who has a lot of uh, you know, second thoughts after you've decided you bought your car? 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:40.399 Are you happy with it? 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:42.000 No, I made a mistake. 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.919 I, you know, I wanted that red convertible, but now it's impractical. 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.879 It was the wrong, you know, it's eats too much gas. 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:53.759 So it's, you know, what is your life experience like in terms of making these decisions? 00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:04.240 And there's some great research on emotional intelligence with traders that you mentioned, showing that uh having good emotional intelligence makes better decisions. 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:18.559 You don't get uh you don't make them too quick, you don't get overly excited or anxious and and sell too quickly, and you don't wait too long, you don't get too cautious or tentative that by the time you make your decision it's too late, you've already lost the market. 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:23.519 So uh really learning how to make that balance is an important skill. 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:32.240 And you and you mentioned very early on in this conversation about channeling your emotions, recognizing them and then deciding what you what you do with them. 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:46.879 A lot of our audience for for this podcast are from a business background, and one of the challenges that they often talk about is how you know it's the sheer volume of work that actually they know they could be more effective in terms of how they use their emotions, they know they could be more efficient. 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:52.639 Um but often it it gets caught up in the the general pace and volume of of work. 00:16:52.879 --> 00:17:07.680 I guess it might be um useful for them to get some ideas from you on practical things they can do, things that are readily applicable, things that aren't going to take up too much, too much time or too much practice, other things like that that you could share with us. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:09.039 Absolutely. 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:13.200 Well, you know, volume, too much volume, overload, I mean that can lead to burnout. 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:16.640 So uh there are things you can do to sort of navigate that. 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.839 And one involves obviously setting priorities. 00:17:20.079 --> 00:17:23.200 There are obviously certain things that are much more important than other things. 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:30.079 And the other problem tends to be with interruptions, whether it's email or phone calls or, you know, other things getting in the way. 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:36.880 So one of the things I find important is to have those uh priorities set in advance. 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.920 You know, you know what things you really have to get done. 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:47.680 And it's not

always just work things, it could be your personal life, exercise, uh, spending time with family. 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:51.200 So sometimes we get people to sort of chart out those things. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:52.960 What are your life values? 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.680 What are the most important things for you in your life? 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.240 And then, you know, we've dealt with your home life, with your social life, uh, family. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.000 And then we get into work life. 00:18:02.079 --> 00:18:06.559 And then within your work life, what are the things that you really, really have to do? 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.319 What are the things you can delegate? 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:18.079 How do you get, you know, more bang for the buck in terms of focusing on those things that are going to mean the most to your career, to your organization, to you personally? 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:23.839 Uh, and I think that's an exercise that we could all go through in terms of that priorization. 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:29.279 Uh, you know, I have a lot of things on my plate, but uh I schedule them, right? 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:33.839 And I try and give them the amount of time they need in terms of their significance. 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:38.799 Some things have a timestamp on them, so you have to keep that in mind. 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:43.680 And other things are like long-term goals, like just in terms of advancing your career. 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:48.000 Uh, it may be learning more about a certain subject matter. 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:49.200 And that can take time. 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:54.480 That could take, you know, a week, uh a couple hours every week where you add to that. 00:18:54.640 --> 00:19:07.279 So it's really a plan of planning, managing, uh, and all through the uh through the spectrum of priorities, what's most important for you at this point in time where you're at in your career. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:14.559 And I guess some of that as you recognize what's important to you, it's about putting the barangers around that to safeguard that, isn't it? 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.759 Because so often we get drawn to this shiny thing. 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:20.640 Yeah, I mean, there are things that are gonna lose, right? 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.640 I mean, there are things you're gonna have to sort of put aside or not deal with right now. 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:34.079 And uh you have to deal with uh if you report to certain people in your organization, you have to discuss that and say, look, you want me to do a really good job on this? 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.359 This is gonna bring us, you know, a lot of new clients. 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:44.640 Let me focus on this for now, and I'll do the other thing in due time, you know, after whatever period of time you you work out. 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:53.920 But you have to be able to, you know, really focus on the things that are most important, do a good job on those, and then move on to the next set of things. 00:19:54.799 --> 00:20:02.640 And and I guess the way in which we often conduct work today more than ever undermines our ability to be emotionally intelligent. 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:14.640 If you think about how we are, we're often going from back-to-back meetings, aren't we, online, that lend themselves to being quite quick and quite transactional with very brief uh interludes or transitions in between. 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:19.279 Any any pointer for people on how they can better manage those? 00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:22.160 Yeah, it's it's not a great thing. 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:30.559 So uh one of the things I've been doing when you have a lot of those meetings, I've been using AI actually to sort of summarize those meetings for me. 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:38.079 I have on my phone uh an app that will uh not, well, it does record the meeting, but it really summarizes it. 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:40.720 We let the person know, hey, we're gonna summarize this. 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:41.599 So I have that. 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:47.359 So two hours or five hours from now, when I get back to what happened in that meeting, it brings me back. 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:51.599 I got a good summary of it, I know what I'm dealing with and can move forward. 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:58.480 But the other part of all that is building in rest time, building in time every day just to think. 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:05.039 Uh, in the morning, uh, I like to sort of think through my day, what's coming up, what do I have to prepare for? 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:09.440 And at the end of the day, uh, I like to think of what I have done today? 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:14.559 I I feel that every day I have to have at least some accomplishment. 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:16.640 And I don't even care if it's just a small thing. 00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:18.559 I clean my desk, you know. 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.240 I want something I can feel good about. 00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:22.160 That's where the emotional intelligence also comes in. 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.759 I want a positive emotion about my workday. 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.400 If I come up at the end of the day and I said, damn it, I've done nothing today. 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:31.680 What a waste. 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:38.000 Uh, that can lead on into the evening, into your home life, and you just don't feel great. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:47.759 And I think it's really important uh by the end of the day that you have something that you can look back on and say, Wow, you know, I had a great conversation with Richard today. 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:53.839 We did a great podcast, or uh, I'm writing a book and I've written a whole chapter, or whatever. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.480 I had a great meeting with my supervisor. 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.759 And uh, you know, as a result of that, you know, I'm gonna get. 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.200 More responsibilities or

less responsibilities or whatever. 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:11.359 So to me, it's really important to work your way through the day, have something that you can look back on that's a positive experience. 00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:12.720 Yeah, totally agree. 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:14.240 It's something I I do myself. 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:24.240 And even on a day when uh there's not a lot that's obviously moved in terms of the dial, just even small, small things, or even if it's been a terrible day, learnings, learnings from the day. 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:29.599 What can I learn in some ways moving me forward, even if it's not moving tasks and projects forward? 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:33.119 Um, but it's almost like putting energy back into the tank, isn't it? 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:34.559 Mm-hmm. 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:35.920 Yeah, absolutely. 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:39.759 And and it's interesting, there's been some really good research on this. 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:44.400 Um, I think it's Teresa Amabiel at uh, I think she's at Harvard. 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:55.200 Uh, they did these studies where people recorded every single day what they were doing, and then they tied that to certain uh certain uh experience, success, and failure experiences. 00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:03.839 And it was amazing the people who had these little, it's not like you throw a big party for all your staff and everyone it gets rewarded. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:06.960 That wasn't what motivated people or what got things done. 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:09.680 It was more about every day's little things. 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:38.240 People who reported positive emotions uh more frequently were usually better performers, we're usually more likely to get promoted, we're usually making more sales, like on all these different variables, that ability to feel good during the course of a day for small things was much more important than these big party type uh things or uh uh you know other ways that organizations spend a lot of money to try and get people motivated. 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:39.519 Yeah, I can believe that. 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:44.240 And and I and I guess it's about making these almost sort of uh routine, isn't it? 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:55.200 Because most of us are good at doing this now and again, particularly when it's a really obvious thing to celebrate, but we don't necessarily do it on a consistent basis and make that a natural part of how we think. 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.039 Yes, and that's where we take our own responsibility, right? 00:23:59.200 --> 00:24:02.960 Each each of us is responsible for ourselves, right? 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:05.599 We can't expect the organization to do that for us. 00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:23.440 There are things we do have expectations from the organization for, but uh, in terms of positive emotions, it's gonna be really our responsibility to find some way in the course of this day that I'm gonna feel good about something that happened to me today in my office or wherever I am. 00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:26.720 And uh and that should be one of your life missions, right? 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:32.319 To find something good each day that you can celebrate that you've accomplished. 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:34.400 So, so true. 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:35.440 I definitely agree with that. 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:45.440 And is it is it a case of just uh cognitively recognizing those things, or or do we need to also sort of experience the feelings that go with that to get the the full benefit? 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:46.640 Well, it's both. 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:51.519 Firstly, cognitively, you know, I I would I think back in my day, again, I say, well, what did I do today? 00:24:51.680 --> 00:25:00.079 Well, I started this, I did a workout, I spoke to Richard, uh, I did this project, I met with some of my staff, uh, you know, whatever. 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:03.599 And as I'm going through that list, some of them make me excited. 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:05.039 Some of them say, Oh, that was really good. 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:06.319 That was a great experience. 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:10.960 You know, I had a really good conversation with Richard, and and uh I feel good about that. 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:12.480 So I feel I accomplished something. 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:19.519 And not only did Richard and I have a good conversation, but other people are going to experience that, and and that may help some people along the way. 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:30.000 So, you know, I build on that experience when I process it later on in the day, and uh and that just charges me up for the next day or the next time I have one of these experiences. 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:31.680 Yes, makes sense, makes sense. 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:33.359 You mentioned something else at the start. 00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:39.680 So we we we obviously um spoke at the start about emotional intelligence, but you mentioned another word, hardiness. 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:42.799 Right. 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:44.160 So intends a little bit of a lot of time. 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.839 Yeah, so one of the areas I've been working on. 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:50.240 Yeah, and and again, that comes out out of a lot of the military work. 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:58.240 Uh my myself, my colleague, Paul Bartone, who's uh another psychologist who was actually the the senior psychologist and the U.S. 00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:12.960 Army and uh had spent quite a bit of time at West Point uh in research and training, and and has developed this concept of hardiness, which is three factors, three things that we found really differentiated people who succeeded. 00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:17.599 And we started with military life, but we moved on into organizations as well. 00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:26.720 And the three uh factors, and this is based over 25 years of research, the three factors, uh the first one is uh we call them the three C's.

00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:38.559 The first one is commitment, and that is really having a purpose or having something that you're uh you're really committed to in terms of the big picture, that you have a goal, the future, and so on. 00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:41.359 Um, the second area is challenge. 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:50.799 So when things go wrong, when you have a tough time or things are are are you know uh problematic, we we step back and we look at it as a challenge. 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:53.039 We think of it as a puzzle to be solved. 00:26:53.200 --> 00:27:08.559 And people who sort of can do that, who can step back and say, okay, uh this person's bothering me or I have this bad situation, let me just step back and see some possible ways I can handle that and treat it as a game or challenge to get through that. 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:10.400 And the third one is control. 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:17.759 And control means knowing exactly which things you can manage versus which things are beyond your ability to manage. 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:24.160 You know, the organization makes some decision that may be on my ability to change or manage. 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.680 However, I can manage how I react to that decision. 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:35.200 Uh, whether I want to go along with it, whether I want to deal with it in a certain way or a different way, that's within my control. 00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:41.440 So the ability to uh to focus on those areas of control is really important. 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:53.039 So we've looked at everything from people who successfully make it through West Point and become great leaders to people in organizations who are able to get through crises or difficult situations. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:08.319 And uh and these three factors that we call hardiness uh really differentiate those who deal with uh difficult situations well versus those who struggle or don't do as well with those situations. 00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:22.640 And in the book, which I don't know if you see it here, I guess you don't, I don't know if you see it behind me or not, but we wrote the book, Hardiness, that really not only goes into defining these and showing the research behind it, but also tells you what you can do. 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:24.799 How do you build each of these areas? 00:28:24.880 --> 00:28:26.319 How do you build commitment? 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.359 How do you build control and how do you build challenge? 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:34.640 And there are concrete specific things that people can do to enhance those abilities. 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:35.599 Fascinating. 00:28:35.680 --> 00:28:41.680 Can you give us a few examples of the kind of things that people listening at home might be able to do in those areas to develop them? 00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:42.720 Sure. 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.799 Well, in terms of commitment, you know, as I mentioned, that's around purpose. 00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:50.799 And uh and that helps with the decision making that we're talking about before. 00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:54.799 When we think about uh purpose, we think about what's important for me? 00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:56.640 What is sort of the big picture? 00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:59.440 You know, for some people, I don't know, they want to make a million dollars. 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:07.839 We work with a professional tennis player uh as coach, and and she, her goal was to win the US Open, right? 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:11.759 That was her picture from when she was 13, which she eventually did. 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:19.680 Um, but her ability to visualize that and picture and work towards that was really an important step in terms of her getting there. 00:29:19.920 --> 00:29:28.880 So if we find out what our sort of our big hairy goal is and then break that into smaller goals beneath that, uh uh, we can build our commitment. 00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:31.119 It may be to have a certain type of career. 00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:37.440 You know, I want to be the CEO of a technology company or I want to do X, whatever it is. 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:45.279 I think it's important for people to, with their coach or on their own, to really come up with what is it, you know, where do they want to be 10 years down the road? 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:47.440 Where do they want to be five years down the road? 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:50.880 And then the the question is, what do we have to do to get there? 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:56.079 And and that leads into things like challenge and control, because challenge is what are the obstacles? 00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:58.960 What are the things that are preventing me from getting there? 00:29:59.119 --> 00:30:02.319 And how can I get around that and deal with that? 00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:04.640 And and then again, control. 00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:06.000 So I can manage this. 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:21.839 You know, I if this isn't the right job for me to get to that ultimate goal, then it's within my power to redo my resume, to, you know, get more educated in the direction I want to be, to apply for a different position, to pick a company I want to work, whatever, you know. 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:23.359 So you can see how it works. 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:31.359 And and it's really important to have those three things in check and focus on those three things uh in a way that's gonna get you to where you want to be. 00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:38.880 And I I find with my clients and in my own world as well, that commitment allows everything else to align to that. 00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:41.039 Things naturally start to fall into place. 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:51.359 And and those obstacles, they they you you often overlook those or don't place as much significance on them because you're always on the on the prize of what you want to achieve. 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:58.000 Yeah, I may have a job in an organization or industry, but my Bob's a bit of a jerk. 00:30:58.160

--> 00:30:59.359 My boss is a jerk, right? 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:01.279 So uh I gotta deal with that. 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:04.400 I really want to make it in this organization, you know. 00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.480 I'm in aerospace, I'm in something that I love that, but I got to deal with this jerk, you know, in the meantime. 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.799 So the question is, how do I get beyond that? 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:21.279 What are the techniques or tactics I can use so that I can eventually either move to a different department, a different boss, or whatever, and still get my ultimate goal. 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:27.279 But if I spend all my time just focusing on what a jerk my boss is, uh I might lose out on a lot, right? 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:34.079 I'll end up just quitting and not getting another good job or uh just being angry every day when I go to work. 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:34.799 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:39.599 So some of some of it's about, I guess, being more efficient with your your energy and your emotions, isn't it? 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:48.400 As you say, you know, if you're totally focused on your boss and everything's geared towards hatred for your boss, there's very little left over for the for the bigger price. 00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:49.680 Exactly. 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:56.319 And you're not gonna be a happy person and you're not gonna be uh as successful in terms of getting your goals, the things that you want. 00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:58.160 So yeah, it's always a big step. 00:31:58.319 --> 00:31:59.359 What is my big goal? 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:00.400 Where do I want to be? 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:02.400 What am what am I looking for? 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:05.519 And and sort of finding that purpose in your life. 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:14.960 And I and I guess it's something that a lot of people struggle with, and and sometimes people have a purpose at one period of their life and and less so at other periods. 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:18.640 Any advice for people if they're struggling to find their purpose? 00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:20.319 And it could change. 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:21.359 There's nothing wrong with that. 00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:28.960 I mean, when you're younger, the purpose may be uh to make a certain amount of money or to drive a certain car or to whatever. 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:32.720 And then maybe you achieve that goal and you want to go to another one. 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.640 I like kind of general goals because they they last longer. 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:47.359 I mean, my goal, even from early days, I was always passionate about taking psychology research and making it available, you know, making it available to the public. 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:49.519 So that's a very general goal. 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:54.160 And that's guided me over the last 50 years in terms of the work that I've been doing. 00:32:54.240 --> 00:33:09.920 I've you know, I've written, I think it's

six books, and and we've done a lot of work in terms of uh the assessments we developed going out into the public, whereas, you know, we've been able to affect millions of people's lives through these assessments or through the technology of emotional intelligence. 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:19.279 Um, and so that's a it's a broad goal, but I don't just work in the organizational field, we work in the clinical field and we work in uh public safety. 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:24.640 So I've been able to take that general goal and apply it to all these different areas. 00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:31.839 But and it goes beyond that because in our organization at MHS, we have over 200 people working here. 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:36.240 And uh and that goal goes to everybody who works in our organization. 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:44.319 Somehow they want to take the technology or the research that we have and and do good in the world, essentially. 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:59.440 When you work at MHS, that's part of your mission, everybody's mission, uh, whether, and again, we have different divisions, but uh, if you're in the organizational division, it's to use emotional intelligence to improve people's lives, make them better leaders, to make them better individual contributors. 00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.799 In our public safety, it's it's to make the world a safer place. 00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:05.599 It's to, you know, that we evaluate, we do risk assessment. 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:14.960 So to know uh which people are are at serious risk of causing harm and which ones aren't, and make sure the ones that are dangerous are not out in the streets and so on and so forth. 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:22.960 So whatever we do, it's in its goal is to contribute to society in one way or another and make the world a better place. 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:26.320 So it's a very broad goal, but you don't need such a broad goal. 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:33.360 Uh, I've been lucky that I've been able to sort of live out my goal and and we're very successful at being able to apply it. 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:35.119 But you could have smaller goals. 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:40.880 It could be um, you know, a certain position you want at work, certain job spec. 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:46.559 Uh, it could be uh family goals, it could be uh spiritual goals. 00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:57.679 You know, I've had people who really want to uh maximize their spirituality in terms of uh how they feel about themselves and the things they do uh to be more spiritual. 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:02.880 And it's you know, it is a path, there's things that they can do uh to improve that. 00:35:03.119 --> 00:35:16.719 But you know, having that goal working towards something, uh, I find really makes a difference in one's life in terms of whether life is pleasant in spite of the setbacks or whether the setbacks are more important than life. 00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:18.639 So true. 00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:23.119 And obviously

the two main things we talked about today emotional intelligence, hardiness. 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.000 Do you get a sense um as a society? 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:32.719 Are we become more more emotionally intelligent, more, more hardy, or or or less so, or is it too difficult to say? 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:39.599 Well, things, things, the world isn't great right now, let's put it that way. 00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:46.480 We're very polarized, uh, whether it's in America, uh I'm here in Canada, you're in Great Britain. 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.400 We see a lot of polarization. 00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.880 Uh, a lot of it stems from the politics of the places that we're in. 00:35:53.119 --> 00:36:01.360 Um so I think we we've been hurting a bit, you know, and then we had COVID, which didn't help us at all in terms of emotional intelligence. 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:07.920 And and we've been following because we've been assessing, you know, thousands and thousands of people throughout the last 40 years. 00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:14.800 So we can see some of those rises and dips in how it affects us in very specific ways. 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:23.039 Um, like people have become uh less uh less self-aware, emotionally self-aware over these periods of time. 00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:32.960 Uh they get when you get more argumentative or angry about someone else's point of view, you don't think about the triggers that you have inside of you and what what how that affects it. 00:36:33.199 --> 00:36:36.320 So unfortunately, the bad news and good news. 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:43.280 The bad news is people are becoming less emotionally intelligent, less hardy, less able to deal with these challenges. 00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:47.199 But I guess the good news is if you're a coach, it gives you a lot more work to do, right? 00:36:47.360 --> 00:36:48.800 You're life easier out there. 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:49.519 That's true. 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.400 Um so so what's prompting us to become less of these things? 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:57.599 Is it is it purely external factors or or is it you know, is it technology? 00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.679 Is it just general upbringing? 00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:03.119 What's contributing to this downturn in these in these areas? 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.280 Yeah, I think it's a combination. 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.519 Uh, and technology plays a role too. 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:22.239 Uh, there's a lot of Jonathan Haidt and his group have done a lot of research on uh on smartphones and and the effect they've had on kids and the fact that kids have uh sort of lost their ability to relate socially in the ways that they did before. 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:24.159 Uh COVID had a big effect. 00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:33.920 Uh we did some research uh throughout COVID testing kids uh anxiety and depression, and we found how the air how those went up uh significantly. 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:38.159 Uh, and we started reporting on that early on in the early isolation days. 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:40.800 We were saying there's gonna be long-term effects to this. 00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:50.880 Uh no one paid a lot of attention to that, but we can see that now where uh where kids are really aren't interacting the way they used to, and they're not learning the way they used to. 00:37:51.039 --> 00:38:02.960 Uh so uh technology contributes, the pandemic contributes to the uh the problems that we have, and uh uh people aren't doing the things that we did as kids. 00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:13.679 When I was growing up, you know, we'd be on the streets playing hockey, and you get into fights and you learn how to navigate those fights, and then you make up and you know, you learn how to negotiate your way through life. 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:15.760 And we do much less of that now. 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:19.760 Uh, kids aren't out there as much doing these things. 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:37.920 Uh, and the whole uh the whole way of thinking about it has changed, not always in a good way, uh, in terms of parachuting, parachute parents and and over controlling some of the kids and not letting them experience some of these early things that helps shape them as they grow up over time. 00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:39.599 Yeah, yeah, definitely agree with that. 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.239 And do you think the pendulum will will shift on that? 00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:44.960 Do you think uh there'll be a bit of a reset at some point? 00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:46.960 Or is it are we just a shame of things to come? 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:52.000 I I I can't say, you know, we're doing a lot of work in the area of AI as well. 00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:57.760 And and you know what happens, like just like when you started using um calculators, right? 00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:04.480 Uh your math skills were kind of falling because uh I don't need to learn multiplication tables, I can just do it on this calculator. 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:12.159 Now we're finding with AI, there's a lot of uh higher level skills, complex skills that, well, I don't have to do it. 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:13.920 You know, I'm giving a paper this afternoon. 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:17.760 Why don't I just ask co-pilot or Chad GPT about this? 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.159 And Chad GPT writes the paper for me. 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.480 So we're losing some of that critical thinking, some of the creativity. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:30.079 And I think that's gonna happen over time, that we're gonna be much more dependent and reliable. 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:38.400 I see this as a major revolution, the the internet, like as you know, the internet was a major uh pivot in our in our world. 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:40.719 I think AI is a major pivot in our world. 00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:47.280 It's gonna change everything because we're gonna become so reliant on it for so many different things that we do. 00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:51.760 And that's again why I

think emotional intelligence is gonna be even more important. 00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:56.960 And it's gonna be up to people like us, I guess, to really get that message across. 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:00.079 Because uh AI is not gonna be the leader in an organization. 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:07.119 It's not gonna be the team builder, it's not gonna be the originator of where your organization should go, what's the best path for you? 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:21.840 You need somebody with these emotional intelligence skills to be able to pull all that together, uh, know where everybody in the organization is at, what they're feeling, where the or where the customer is, what they're feeling, where they're going, and fill that gap. 00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:30.639 So there's always going to be a role for for the individual in there, but there are gonna be a lot of people who get sucked into the AI doing everything for them. 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:31.199 Yeah. 00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:33.760 Yeah, something to watch out for for sure. 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:36.400 Stephen, so you've written six books you mentioned. 00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:38.239 What's what's next on your agenda? 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:40.239 What are you what are you working on at the moment? 00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:54.320 Well, right now we're doing some work on, as I mentioned, I worked a lot in the area of reality television, reality TV, things like uh Big Brother Canada, the Amazing Race Canada, all these different shows. 00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:57.840 And uh I've been talking to some colleagues and thinking about it. 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:06.079 And when we talk about some of the things that uh we've learned from these shows, uh it's come up, people say, wow, you know, that's an important life lesson. 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.079 I mean, you should write a book about that. 00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:10.000 So that's what I'm thinking about right now. 00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:11.599 Things like authenticity. 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:19.199 You know, the great thing about reality TV is uh, you know, we we assess all these people, hundreds of people have assessed for these shows. 00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:20.480 They go on and they compete. 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:25.119 And a competition may be like 10 weeks or four weeks, depending on the show. 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:27.840 But we have a winner, right, within that period of time. 00:41:28.079 --> 00:41:32.079 In the real world, in the workplace, you assess people, you hire them. 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:35.679 You may not know for six months or a year if they're any good, right? 00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:41.360 It takes you a while to really figure out are they wasting time, are they productive, blah, you know, whatever. 00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:44.159 Reality TV, we see that in a you know, really quick. 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:50.639 So we've been able to pick up on well, why do these people succeed, or these people get hated, or these people get thrown out? 00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:56.000 And uh, so so part of that is authenticity, part of that is social skills. 00:41:56.239 --> 00:42:14.000 Um so we've identified a number of these factors that it's you know, we've dealt with everything from these social experiments like Big Brother to these cooking shows to talent shows, um, and notice a set of skills that are important in each of these situations. 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:21.599 So I'm thinking about pulling that all together as life lessons from reality TV and seeing uh how we can apply those to real life. 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:22.960 That's that sounds brilliant. 00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:26.639 I look forward to to reading that when you when you write that book. 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:34.000 And I'm guessing some of it will overlap with the work you've done on emotional intelligence by the sound of things as much as anything else. 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.880 Absolutely. 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.400 Emotional intelligence seems to bubble up all the time in these things. 00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:42.320 And uh, unlike you know other sources, I mean, we've got the data, right? 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:52.559 I've tested these people and put them on shows and watched hundreds of them, you know, fail or fall apart or do really well, succeed and win the prize. 00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:02.960 So um, so it's great to actually have real data, whether it's emotional intelligence or hardiness, even IQ, you know, how important is that in your success in these things? 00:43:03.199 --> 00:43:05.760 And you know, and how would that apply to real life? 00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:15.039 So um it's it's just a fun way of taking some of these experiences, these crazy experiences, and seeing what can we take away from those experiences? 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:20.239 Like, what is it about putting someone in a pressure cooker, like scaring the heck out of them, right? 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:23.679 And then they come out of that and and how do they feel about it? 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:27.519 Um, you know, another part is what kind of person wants to be on reality TV? 00:43:27.599 --> 00:43:29.920 Yeah, that's another question we have to deal with. 00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.599 No, I love the concept, it sounds fascinating. 00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:37.599 We're just coming towards the end of uh our podcast today. 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:43.360 Any any final thoughts that you want to leave with the audience uh around anything we've discussed today? 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:54.480 Well, I think you know what's important is for people to to grow and to learn and to continue to uh to expand, you know, in terms of uh the things that they're interested in. 00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:56.559 So, number one, find your purpose. 00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:57.920 What what gets you really excited? 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.119 What you know turns you on in terms of Where you want to be. 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.599 And what can you do to learn more about it? 00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:07.440 To sort of get more information or data or read. 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:18.400 Um, and and then find out how emotional intelligence can help you get there is you know part of the part of the way of greasing the wheel to get you further ahead in terms of where you want to get. 00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:19.199 Brilliant. 00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.599 It's been an absolute pleasure chatting today, Steve. 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:23.679 Love to have you back on at some point. 00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:25.280 Thank you very much. 00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:26.639 Great. 00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:27.440 Thanks so much. 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:29.119 Uh it's great to be with you, Richard. 00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.079 Thank you. 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:34.159 This is the business of thinking. 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:36.320 Mastery doesn't end here. 00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:39.920 See you in the next episode.