บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ When Pain Becomes Purpose

busy season, and we always both traveled. So like travel was nothing ⁓ different for our lives. When I left to go out of town, like literally there was nothing in my in anything that had just happened that I would have thought it was my last time I would ever see him. So on August sixth, it was remember the morning, I hadn't heard from Woody. And so I'm like, hey dad, do me a favor. Wood's having trouble sleeping. Could you go over and just see if maybe hit his head or something? That's what I'm thinking. And literally I'm still shooting in advertising production. And that's when I got the call. And in one second, it was like my entire life, everything that I had known, like literally, I it was like I was outside my body looking at what what? But that night, ⁓ you know, as I'm trying to get back from Detroit back to Minneapolis. The coroner asked, called me and asked if Woody was on any medication. And the only thing he was taking was Zoloft. And she told us we're going to take it with us. It might have something to do with his death. Also, that same day that Woody was found, the front page of our newspaper, the Minneapolis Star Tribune, had an article that said, the UK finds a link between antidepressants and suicide in teens that same day. And The funny thing is, wouldn't I left notes all the time when we traveled? Because I always call them the honeydo lists usually for me. and there was a no note. Yeah, like, honey, could you like to do the, you know, the honey do list? And ⁓ and not one, like literally no note from Woody on the biggest trip of his life. But in some ways, that night became like all of a sudden, God's like. Here's your purpose. Like, and I didn't know it because my life had just fallen apart. But those two things that exact same night, and then like a deep intuition that there's no way, but I didn't I mean, I didn't know what the heck just happened. And you know, and I remember even at his funeral going, Well, I don't know, like maybe he was depressed and I just didn't know. Like I didn't know what, like, how do you kill like take your like it made no sense to me. So, anyways, that's really what started. This whole like twenty three years now coming up on advocacy. And when I think back to that night, my brother in law, who 'cause at this time my dad called, you know, my sister and her husband, and they came over and nobody the anybody who knew Woody was like, What? Like it made no sense. And so my brother in law went home and Googled that night so loft in suicide, had no idea. That the FDA had hearings in 1991 on the emergence of violence and suicide with Prozac. And almost every one of those members of the committee did nothing. And they're like, nope, we don't see anything. So now fast forward, nothing was ever done. Now we have Zoloft on the market, we have Paxel on the market, and we have it approved for kids. And so that became our first mission was we Like we gotta get warnings. Like we we're smart and we had no idea. So that really was what we originally did. And I had a lawsuit against Pfizer and and ⁓ eventually we did get warnings added to these drugs. speaker-0: Yeah. So she helped to get the black box warnings on these medications, which I think is phenomenal. I mean, when I think about you, I'm like, she's, she is so incredible because I, I mean, I don't know what the timing looked like because obviously that was very, very traumatic, right? But, but to go through a traumatic experience and then to activate the part of you that is going to fight, was that ⁓ a long period of time? Was that short? Like, how did you find that inside of you to be like, I can't just let this tragedy consume me. I have to do something about it. You know, reminds me even in some ways of my friend, Corey, who started a nonprofit for kids who age out of foster care is like, she actually has seen so much, but she couldn't just sit with it be like, gosh, this is so sad because a lot of people sit around and they experience things and they just get consumed by the grief or they just think, man, this is so sad. but they don't activate. And I'm not saying that to judge you if you've been through things and you haven't activated like Kim, but there's something that shifted inside of you. What did that look like? How long did it take? Because it's incredible to me. I just feel like most people would let us destroy their life, their entire life. speaker-1: Well, first all, it didn't happen it I mean, literally that night I was trying to I mean, I walked through the airport coming back and I had a blanket over my head. I mean, literally it took me a while, but I think part of it was like intuitively, like every part of me was like, There's no way Woody killed himself. Like and I was trying to go on this investigation, like, did I miss something our whole marriage? Like what just happened? And then my brother in law did a lot of things too, because he's like, This doesn't make sense. So he's Sitting there, I mean, literally calling the world experts that are responding to him, emailing. And he's praying, what do I do with this? Cause I think this is what happened. And I'm sitting there, like after Woody's funeral, I, for anybody who's ever gone through anything like this trauma, like I still grab my heart. ⁓ is it heartaches real? And I remember like after like literally I had scratch marks trying and I kept praying a prayer. God take my pain and use it. It does me no good. And I was I just wanted this gone. But I didn't realize that that prayer was also planting a seed that Eric had been, what do I do with all this information? And so he eventually came, like maybe six, six weeks, five weeks. I mean, it was really close. And he comes to me and he goes, It was really close. And I almost feel like I I mean, I think in some ways, I couldn't even wrap my head around Woody being dead. Like I was just trying to figure out how did this happen. speaker-0: forward, like how do I keep living? Like

what is this? speaker-1: Literally. And I will say the night that I actually got home from Detroit, I remember all my house was full of people and I'm young. Like and and nobody like people are like you know, my friends, like that isn't my life. I mean, I just remember there was somebody that ⁓ her is a friend of a friend of my sister's whose husband had died the same way ten years earlier. And all I said is, give me her and like that night. I'm like, Can I talk to her? Like so they got her on the phone and I remember like l in laying in my bathroom floor, just like bawling, but I needed to hear that I tell me I'm not gonna be like this forever. Tell me there's hope. Tell me like just give me that little bit to hold on to. And she goes, I promise you you will laugh again. I promise you. And all I could think about is I don't know how this is ever gonna happen. But she planted that bit of hope, you know, in me that night. But literally when Eric came to me, who again is my sister's husband, where a lot of people think it was Woody's brothers. It wasn't came to me and I was like looking at all this stuff and I'm like, what? They knew? What? How did they not like, what about like if those people back in 91 and there were all kinds of and I anybody who's interested in this, they should ⁓ go on YouTube and put the 1991 FDA hearings and you'll see family after family after family testifying and you're like of these out of character, ⁓ either violent or suicide acts. And so you're like, wait, how come we need to do something like and and so it just became like something. And then I'll tell you, ⁓ you know, at the time, ⁓ again, everybody was so concerned about me. everybody was telling Eric, like, you can't take Kim down this path. Like she just lost her, like you can't go and fight, you know, the FDA and and do in DC and and Eric was really struggling with that because he would never want to throw me into a place of like even more ⁓ pain. But you know, we were getting ready because Woody always said, I want my ashes like when I die, throw them on the middle of Lake Michigan. Yeah. And ⁓ so because we used to live in Chicago. Yeah and we Eric and I, we had a funeral in Chicago and Eric and I were on the middle It was the search and rescue boat police ⁓ Woody's brother's a Chicago cop. So he got that for us. And we're in the middle of the lake, right in front of Lake Michigan, or right in front of Oak Street Beach. And literally Eric and I are standing next to each other. I'm holding this box of Woody. And I'm like, I cannot believe this is like Woody's like that. I can't even believe this. And meanwhile, we're starting to talk about like what we can do. And literally in the middle of the water, there's this red book floating by like this. Like Hollywood. It looks like open face red book. And it said on the it said the Holy Bible on it. And it literally floated right by us. And only the two of us saw it. And I'm like, well, thank God. Because then people

would have thought I was a crazy widow. But yeah, and literally both Eric and in that moment that was a sign for both of us. Like, this is like Woody's with me. Don't worry. Like that for me was something. But it was also like the speaker-0: it. speaker-1: I am gonna be I'm having you guys on a big assignment go. I've got you. And so I think that really helped. ⁓ and then that became our and every time I would fly from Minneapolis to DC, I'd go over the lake. And cause books don't float. And I remember even asking they don't float. They sink. And I even asked after when we saw it, I got off the boat and I asked the Chicago cop ⁓ who ran the whole department. I go, Can I ask you a question? And he's like, you know, total crusty Chicago cop. And he and I go, Do you have you ever gotten a Bible out of the water? And he goes, ma'am, I've been doing this search and rescue for twenty-five years. No, because books don't float. And I was like, That's what I thought. Anyways, so I think that helped too. ⁓ you know, I it was not I think I was ⁓ truthfully, I look back at how I was raised, where you sucked it up. speaker-0: So. speaker-1: You sucked your pain. I think all of that now I look back and I'm like, I think I needed to be in that raised in that kind of family. Because I was able to go and not cry because when these and if you go look at the two thousand four, two thousand six hearings and Google those, you see families of young twelve year old kids that got put on test ⁓ Zola for test anxiety, hung themselves. ⁓ you had Like it was horrific. And I would and people are like, You got blood on your hands, screaming at the FDA. And I'd be like, you know, swallowed my pa you know, swallowed my pain. And just was really forceful of like, you gotta warn. This is about warning. This is like you don't decide what warnings we need and what warnings we don't need as the public. It's not about scaring us. And so I was able to be really forceful and I was like, Who is this girl? As I'm looking at myself and so speaker-0: that you were raised that you were scared. Like that's not good. You shouldn't raise people that way. And it kind of just reminds me that however we were raised or whatever happened to us in the, in the past, there was a reason like it prepared that strong woman and to be able to show up and not be overly emotional because I think probably what you experienced and I'm assuming there were probably a lot of men. speaker-1: I think Yeah. speaker-0: that we're listening, right? And I don't know about you, but in my experience, if a woman is overly emotional, it's like that part of their brain kind of shuts down and they just, you needed to be a strong sort of like in your masculine. Yes, like a lion going in there, not screaming, yelling, not overly emotional. You had to access that part of you that was a gift from growing up. yeah, I know from hearing you speak, A few weeks ago, we were again in Amberley's room. I'm always going to be talking about her she's such a blessing how she connects people. You were talking specifically about feeling and experiencing all of life. And I think there's a lot of things that we could talk about here, but there had to be a point over the last couple of decades where you had to actually go there and like actually process and speaker-1: Talking to Bamberly, please. speaker-0: and feel and not have to always be like the lion or the lioness. That's number one. Number two, even talking about Woody, like when I hear his name, I can actually picture the kind of guy that he was because I grew up in Wisconsin. You lived in Chicago and are from Minneapolis and like, I know those kinds of guys. Like they're happy guys. They just want to sit around the fire by the bar and have a couple beers at the end of the day. They're just happy days, right? And I'm like, I can picture, you know, what Woody was like. but you know, a lot of people listening, think, ⁓ my gosh, I can't sleep. ⁓ my gosh, I'm a little bit sad. ⁓ my gosh, I've gone through this hard thing. Like I don't want to have to fill this or I have to fix this problem of not being able to sleep or whatever. And there's a lesson maybe there in just experiencing the totality of life and not just trying to rush through anything that seems like it's uncomfortable or doesn't fit. So. I know I've unpacked a lot there, but let's start with you because yes, you're like a bull and you're a writer and the work that you have done and the things that you continue to do. You were in Washington a couple of weeks ago. It's incredible and it's needed. know, Woody didn't kill himself. The drugs killed him. Yeah. For anybody. ⁓ I never told you this, but my brother, ⁓ who struggled with OCD and anxiety was put on Prozac. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: And he became a completely different person. it would thank, thank the Lord he got off of it. But we kind of experienced this in our family and hate that tragedy had to happen for you. But wow, how God, you know, has worked through you. And also there comes a point where God is probably like, Hey, you also get to have a life and you get to, you get to feel and you get to soften. so. I don't know, for the people listening that have always had to fight and advocate and be the lioness, what would you tell them about? speaker-1: That's a really good question because I get all like emotional. ⁓ 'cause I think for initially it needed to have that like lioness where, you know, as a kid I swallowed my I my parents, they always laugh. I talk to the cat, like I the cat knew how I was feeling. My mom dad always thought, ⁓ she's fine. Like, no, I was like the quiet girl that sat in the corner. Like, I didn't say anything. I was afraid to raise my hand. Like, but this like profoundly kind of changed me. And it became somewhere for my grief and my pain to go. And I didn't have to feel. And so I remember immediately after the doctor said, Do you think you need something to me? And I go, ⁓

I think it's what killed my husband. I go, but aren't I supposed to hurt? Like my husband died. And she goes, Well, you don't need to. And literally and I at that point I was like, I'm not taking your stuff. So I knew, but I realized there's a lot of ways to numb the pain. So I threw myself in advocacy so I didn't have to feel. And it also helped me to still stay connected to Woody, right? Like I was like 'cause I remember even after I got all this done, I'd be like, Woody, I figured it out. You can come home. And I was like, Ugh, you know, you're still not coming home. And you know, and so, and people would always say, ⁓ she's a warrior, because that like something just happened. And I think again, I go back, thank you, mom and dad, for raising me the way I did, because I think that's what made me be able to do this. But I'd come home to an empty house and I'd be like, and I really struggled because I really thought, like, well. Yeah, of course God cares about this because this is a big mission for people or him, but he doesn't really care about me ⁓ at home. Like I'm j like just me. And so I speaker-0: Sacrificial martyr to the cause. Yeah, so my needs don't matter. I'm here to be the sacrificial lamb for this. Yeah speaker-1: And that's where it like and I was like, wait a minute. And I don't think he was ever saying that, right? Like that, ⁓ and but I had to come to that point and and truthfully, I when I f went into and I say I went into a relationship ⁓ with Woody's business partner because I again didn't want to feel it. And when that ended, guess what? I had to go back and deal with the first pain that I never did, which was Woody. Because I didn't want to feel it. And so I did a lot of lot of work around transformation ⁓ work and sitting in the pain and ultimately coming to the realization what you resist persists. I know it's one of those things like you can't run away. I remember I saw a therapist, ⁓ a grief counselor right after Wood died. And I was like, I'm moving to LA. Like now's the time. I'm moving because I don't want anybody to know. anything about what I've done. And she looked at me and she goes, Well, remember, wherever you go, there you are. And I was like, ⁓ yeah. Like it's still coming with me, right? I tried to run, I tried to outrun all of this for many years. And it's probably in the last probably eight years that I'm like, whoa. And then really putting the work in it and because and I can still find myself getting, you know, doing having it's a I think it's about a balance, right? It is. Of you know, having to do that. So for anybody who is in that, I there is something about sitting and being quiet and allowing the feeling of pain to be there. And also like there's ways like I learned something going to like grief share at church where like volunteering, because it takes it out of You know, you're instead of you focusing like in the rampant thoughts, you're out there volunteering. So you're kind of doing and you're

still getting up and it might be one foot in front of the other. You know, wouldn't I were big runners and back in the day and I was like, I can't run. And then all of a sudden it was like, but I could walk. And so I walked a couple blocks. And even though I was a disaster, I came back, but I did it again. And it was a little bit more. I did it again. And then I could also just here and for people who've had loss or I believe that there's like when we are done with this world, there's like the life is so beautiful that Woody's sitting up there going, what are you doing? Like you you are here. Like get out there and live life. And so you, you know, and so eventually I got to that point. But I think the idea of numbing and we've gotten so good at avoiding the pain at at at breath like scrolling on our phones, like anything to like not want to face what it is. ⁓ but that is where the healing begins. speaker-0: It is and there's some beauty in it. Honestly, I was having a conversation with ⁓ some friends in July of last year and they were like, ⁓ you guys don't drink at all? Like, you know, and I was like, yeah, no, I feel everything. Like I don't numb out. Like I have the gift of being able to feel the low, low lows. and the high, highs because I have an unaltered, I live in unaltered, right? Unaltered by students, mean. I mean, we can all numb out on our phone or we can numb out. My version was let me work harder, right? Kind of like advocating, advocating, advocating. When I experienced pain, I was like, well, let me just work harder. Let me work harder. But I also think one of the important points that everyone can take from this, even if you haven't struggled with like extreme, you know, loss like this, but we've all lost something or we've all gone through something that creates grief is having some normalcy, having some things that you continue to do. Like you're like, well, I can't run, but I can walk. And so you made yourself get up and you made yourself, you know, go for a walk a couple of years ago. didn't, I didn't, I've never, well, my father passed away 12 years ago, pretty young, but I haven't had something like you, but a couple summers ago when I went through the experience of thinking that I might lose a child that was very, very sick, I had to make myself get up and go work out and go take a walk. And I also had to make my life not only about that. And I think what you're talking about is like, you could have a thousand percent just buried yourself. continuously in this advocacy and in, you know, basically trying to bring him back. But it sounds like what you figured out about eight years ago is like, I also need to feel, and I also need to have a life, and I also need to have friendships, and I also need to just get out there. Like I'm allowed to also have a life and thrive and be joyful. And in the other hand, have this tragedy and this grief. And that's kind of what I'm hearing from you. speaker-1: Yeah, you know what? That's ⁓

and even when even un initially even throwing myself in advocacy, I was still living my life like doing my advertising. But it would always feel there was always that little bit of, you know, when if I got happy or if I was like, ⁓ like I felt guilty initially, or I'm like, or like, ⁓ you can't feel that. Like just go get you just be in this relationship to just replace that feeling so you didn't have to feel the love part. And then I ultimately realize that it is about balance because I would not in a million years trade what hap I mean, yes, I hate what happened to Woody, but I also have a I feel like I still have a relationship with him. And I don't know that it ever goes away because if we're spiritual beings having a physical experience, like I just feel like there'll always be a connection with us and I believe that we have to that we kind of have to move forward and it is kind of holding both both and because that is what through the most painful experience of my life, I found life. Like that's the irony of it all. Like I feel more alive today than even when I did when I was married to Woody. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: I love dancing now where he'd always I'd be like, I have to be drunk to dance and he loved it. I mean, he was obnoxious. Like he would go up and I'd be like, ⁓ no way. And now I'm like Yeah, like isn't that funny? Now I'm like, ⁓ no, I love like this is great. I and I think it only came because I have now seen both and and I think that is what life is. It's not you know, I think the world and especially like the pharmaceutical world, they like to, you know, t Try to keep everybody like even just like and I'm not if people want to take the meds, they just need to know all the information, right? That's decisions. I think, you know, I'm always fighting about informed consent and transparency. But, you know, but w this illusion that somewhere that we're supposed to have this like life is supposed to be easy or no suffering. I think that's a false, like that when that isn't how life exists. Like if you look From the beginning of time, it's up and down. And I think when you have the lows, you can then feel the highs so much different. And and they both don't last forever, right? It's like the ocean in and out. Like it comes and goes and and and it's life is always working for us. speaker-0: Yes. And we have to have the contrast. There's contrast for a reason, like good, bad, light, dark, happy, sad. And it's this, you know, like you said, pharmaceutical, you know, basically deciding like, well, you shouldn't be too low and you shouldn't be too high and you should always be like this. But if you're always like this, number one, you're very controllable. Exactly. You're very controllable. But in number two, like, speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Exactly. speaker-0: you actually don't really experience life. You're just in a a fuzz in a fog. And again, we're not here to tell you what to do. Like Kim says, like, no, you know, the warnings, but

you know, what about somebody like listening that, that feels like, I think I maybe, maybe I don't want to be medicated. But I am really, I don't know that I could do it without the medication. Is that true? True or false, right? Is there withdrawal? Like, you know, what happens, you know, with dependency or whatever? I think some people, they just, it's not like they wanted to be, but now they are in this place where they feel like they have to always be medicated and they just don't even know how to live without the medication. What would you say to those people? speaker-1: think, well, first of all, there is I th have they tried and I think there's a big problem with ⁓ withdrawal and dependency with these drugs and through my litigation we got documents out that show that they intentionally kept that from people, including our doctors. And so we're it's really easy to have the easy ramp to get on them, but there's no discussion about how to get off. And so when people try to or they're like putting that thought in of like ⁓ I'm thinking I'm ready. But when they try, all of a sudden simp like they get they start having symptoms again and they go to the doctor and then they're told that it's their disease getting worse. And so I think there's this fear of the disease getting worse. But there's also this idea that once you ⁓ I mean, how many people I've met? Like li a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned I was in DC and I was moderating the lived experience panel of ⁓ at the Maha Institute ⁓ summit on mental health and over medicalization. And I met a lot of people, not the the ones who are in the panel, but those were all like kids that started when they were seven and nine and now they're in their 30s and they can't get off of the meds. So their entire childhood cannot get off of these. And they are trying desperately, but there are a lot of side effects for people that literally we ⁓ called akathisia, which is one of the big ⁓ side effects. But there were people in the audience that came up to me and they said, you know, I've been on these medications for 25 years. And I and and and I'm like, I am always curious why did you get put on them? Because I'm just trying to understand that idea. And fear of public speaking, breakups. And so that fear, right? And I said, how is it speaker-0: one. speaker-1: That I mean that one of public speaking, especially like I look back when I first did all the FDA stuff and I was like shaking and r you know at three and then, you know, all this stuff even getting up on stage with Amberly and I'm like, ⁓ I forgot, like I'm trying to memorize. I mean, I totally have the fear. But I she said to me, and I'll never when and I literally just met her a couple of weeks ago, she goes, I would take that fear any day now versus where I'm at. twenty some years ago and I can't get off. And so I think that is a reality. I think, you know, you certainly don't cut these things short. ⁓ I mean, do it quickly. I mean, these are my

⁓ serious, mind altering ⁓ drugs that do need to be tapered very, very carefully. And also you're not a failure if you can't get off of them because there are you might not have been given the information. But I also think there is something about I think like planting that seed in somebody that you're broken. There's something wrong with you. Yes. And and that you can't like you're giving your power away to a pill that can actually is why you're okay or able to function, but you're still not loving life. You're still maybe like this. But you're like, ⁓ I couldn't survive. Well, how do you know you couldn't survive? Like we've planted this idea of you have to have it. And so I'm really Yeah, that you're broken. And I think that's a lie that I think so many of us I you know have told ourselves. Like I listen to the stories of my own like thoughts in the head. I'm like, where's that com? That's a lie. Yes. And and I think there is that we have to start challenging because really those are just outside thoughts that are coming in. There's also this idea of like If they're like if you could look at them as clouds, like let them just go and not attach, like, ⁓ I'm this, I'm that, I'm not enough, I'm broken. Like those are things that ultimately I mean, I didn't do this a long time ago. I see ⁓ now and I'm very aware of ⁓ where where's this roommate in my head saying this crap? Get out of here. Right? But speaker-0: Yeah, Dr. Amon, he talks about the ants in your brain, the automatic negative thoughts. you've just got to like, you know, these ants are in your brain, but it's not necessarily, you know, the reality, right? speaker-1: I know. And so, anyways, I do think it's really important that conversation about, you know, especially if people are trying to like thinking about doing it, going on them now, you better have all the information be and one like there's a lot of alternatives you could start and do first. ⁓ that I would absolutely recommend first. But if you ultimately decide to do this, you have to have a conversation with your doctor. What's my exit strategy? Because these remember, these drugs were tested on six to eight weeks in trials. They were never meant to be on for 20, 30 years, which is what we're seeing today. And that is something that I think we do as a society need to start having a bigger conversation around what does it mean? ⁓ and again, I'm this is not any judgment, anything. It's just about. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I wish I didn't have to learn this the hard way. And it's also not about scaring people. It's about really sitting with these kind of questions of what it means to be human because, you know, they speaker-0: It's pain, the human experience is fear, the human experience is loss, but the human experience is also joy. And it's also exhilaration and it's humor and it's like all of these things. And I have an uncle that, you know, when you're talking about this, like my brain is broken. He has struggled so much and he literally thinks, well, you know, this is just, I'm just broken. Like this is how I am. And he can't. literally see outside of medication for anything natural, like he won't take a probiotic that has psychobiotics in it. you know, it's like, he is the planting of this idea. Well, this is just your cross to bear. This is just there's something wrong with you. And I've never talked about this. But, you know, when our son was severely anorexic, which even when I go back there and think about it, it still makes speaker-1: Yeah, it's like emotional. speaker-0: Yes, but he was 93 pounds at 16. And so we went on this massive journey of just like researching and medication was never, for whatever reason, I struggled with depression and anxiety for many, many years, never went on medication. And again, not judging if you have, but something inside of me was like, no, like I need Jesus, I need exercise, I need nature, I need... Like anything else, music, anything else that I could use. And thankfully I'm on the other side now. I'm almost 50, right? So I have learned that time changes things, right? But as we researched for our son and we talked to literally the world's leading expert that, you know, used to work with Dr. Mark Hyman, functional medicine, so functional psychiatrist that ran a whole practice in Boston. He was like the expert in it. We read his book, Answers to Anorexia. guess, guess what was not in the book? A whole list of medications. It was all ⁓ foods and nutrition and different types of supplements like saffron and like all this kind of like there were, so he was on a slew of different supplements and nourishing his body with different nutrients. And it literally brought him, you know, back, back to life because the roots of anorexia. our anxiety, just typically anxiety and some OCD. So we could have very easily, and when we went to the pediatrician, like, hey, well, we have this medication, this medication, this medication. And so if you're listening, like it's not your fault. And also in a lot of ways, not necessarily the doctor's fault because that's how they're trained. They go to medical school, they're trained a specific way. And I think that the only way this changes is we have conversations like this. We share our stories. And I share this story to say like, Hey, there were alternatives and guess what? We didn't put them on all these, you know, X, Y, and Z things. And maybe those are necessary for some people. I just think most people don't know. that's kind of the point of your work is like, people didn't even know that these were possible side effects. so, you know, if you have a story and you're listening, share your story, talk about it. The more conversations, the more. vulnerability, the more open people are with sharing their stories, you never know who's going to hear that. You never know who's going to see that post on social media or listen to that podcast. That's going to be like, wait a second. Maybe I

shouldn't treat this like candy. And maybe the pain or the sadness or the sorrow that I'm feeling is not bad. It's just a part of this human experience. I love your work because we need more. We need more of this. And it's not being anti or judging people, but I think people just don't know. speaker-1: think you know what ⁓ and that's what I've really realized through this whole thing and I kind of created this thing called the spider web right which is something that I learned by going to all these conferences about how the system works right and so in the middle of my spider web I have the doctor and the patient in the middle and it's because even our doctors aren't aware when they've that it is controlled at every level to put us on or keep us in this c I call it customers for life, cradle to grave yes. And so when you don't know, Woody's doctor didn't know. And then through the litigation we found, ⁓ wait, Pfizer, they intentionally didn't tell the GPs. And they knew because if they told ⁓ about the side effect actisia, doctors might not prescribe it. And so this is where I think We've blindly trusted in authorities outside ourselves. And not listening. So like you just said, something in you has always known, right? And that little voice is connection to to to God spirit. And that is like I think back to speaker-0: Yes. speaker-1: That night when Woody, I was like, there's no way Woody killed him. Like every part of me was like, There's no way. And when those voices are speaking, like we need to pay attention because I guarantee you, mama bears, like ⁓ wives, like they know that something doesn't make sense. And so don't always take the easy way out, which is like give your authority away, your sovereignty outsourcing versus maybe, and that's Also, why you know, one of my messages I always say is stop, pause, ask questions, be still, and then take action. Like there's this idea that really listen. If something doesn't feel right, you're like, why are they gonna just throw all this stuff? Like, how do we know if it's gonna get better? Right. And like I love that you did take the harder route, right? You had to make convers ⁓ calls, you had to read, you had to ask questions. Yeah. You know, you didn't just take what the doctor told you to do. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, it was like hell. Yeah. And it was a lot of research and I mean, it takes effort. So I, it's kind of like, can understand why people think like, well, we'll just, we'll just do this and they trust. Yeah. Like they're just not connected with that intuition, that inner knowing. And so this is a, a season and a time in the world where I think people are kind of waking up to that. And we want to encourage you to wake up to that and not outsource for sovereignty and listen. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And I love that you say pause like, Hey, you know what, take some time, see how it feels in your body, see how it feels in your spirit, because it's not just a benign thing. It's not. speaker-1: These are I say all the time, these are serious mind altering. And then when you start thinking about like anxious I'm I'm a true ⁓ truly an anxious person. Like I it's what keeps me up at night. And so I've had to learn different tools and things like faith is a huge part. I'm like, get out and move, ⁓ create, dance. Like you just need to do something, but get out of those thoughts that are like automatically gonna take you crazy down a path, right? But I do, I love what you said earlier. And I think this is the power of sharing our stories. Because when you and I think it's also why for a long time all these harms in medicine have been kind of never been connected. It's because people weren't sharing their stories or they were keeping it thinking that they're isolated. ⁓ this is only me that's going through this. Like no one else is, like, and they've intent that's part of the plan too, to keep everybody. separate, but once you start sharing, you're like, ⁓ wait, I know somebody else. Like I have heard this from my friend. I should have like Brooke talk to Brooke. Like, what did they what did she do? And then so it just gives hope and it also realizes you're not alone and you give permission. And because I think we as humans, we you know I feel especially for men, I think it's even worse. speaker-0: We. speaker-1: they don't share, like at least women we talk maybe a little bit more, but I think it's really important that men also share and have their own place because, you know, that's pretty lonely place to do this alone and and have these kind of, you know, life happening to us. speaker-0: When you start talking and opening up and getting in community, you realize that you're not alone and it is separation that creates the greatest pain in our lives. It's this separation we feel from God, from others, you know, and we're really not alone, but it's just kind of this facade or this lie that we believe in. So I love so much, you know, this conversation and I could talk for like two more hours. with you, but we're not going to do that. I hope you guys have taken something away from listening today and I'm really excited because you have a book coming out. So when's the book coming out and just overall, what's the book about? speaker-1: Sure. The book's gonna be out later this year. And it's really about the cost of trust. And it's this idea of the inner and the outer. I call it the outer battle for Woody. It's all the discovery things that I learned about how the FDA works. You know, ⁓ so you're gonna be educated because and you're gonna learn as I'm learning, right? ⁓ I'll take you through that. But it's really also the it intertwined with the inner journey and the cost of like giving away our like trusting outside versus coming back in. So I think that ⁓ the trust is something that kind of crosses both the battle, the outside, and then the inner journey. And so I hope it has and it's helpful for people. It's been inside me for 20

some years. It's finally ready to it's time. It's time. I always say I can't take any of this with me. And if I could like leave one, if I could leave just to plant a seed For somebody that hope and healing is possible, like I'm in a d I have to do my part. I have to do my part. I can't take it with me. I already know this stuff in my life. speaker-0: Yes. it out of you and share it. And I just had this vision of seeing it as like a bestseller and on the billboards in this message, reaching millions. And I know when your book comes out, I'm going to be a huge fan. I'm going to be sharing it trying to get everyone listening here and following along to grab that book. So we'll keep you posted everyone listening. But you're also working on a petition. What's that petition about? speaker-1: Yeah, so the petition, and this is gonna be out launched in a probably in a couple weeks, ⁓ because I'm going on vacation next week. ⁓ but it's gonna be ⁓ a petition that if people have been on these meds and have had own their own experience that they sign, it's really trying to get the FDA NIH to study withdrawal and to actually study what happens when people are on these medications, like PSSD, which is post-SSRI sexual dysfunction. People are ⁓ some people have had no feeling that's ever been restored to them ⁓ with the sexual side effects. And so you know, it's gonna really put some focus on that because there's a lot of people right now talking about it. I'm finally happy, hap happy to see this conversation happening. So that'll be something and they can follow that and find that on my on my website, my socials. speaker-0: and we're the best place to connect with you. speaker-1: Say I'm starting to do a lot more on Instagram. ⁓ so Kim ⁓ Kim Woodsack on Instagram. I also am very active on I still call it Twitter X, and that's at Woody Matters. I also have a sub stack, which is acceptable collateral damage, and ⁓ that's really where I talk about a lot of this advocacy work, but I'm gonna start blending the personal ⁓ which I also feel has been my challenge. Because it's really easy to stay busy. But I think part of what we have to remember is we're only as good. And it's what my mentor said a long time ago. What do you want to do? And he goes, But how's your how's your house? How's your world? And I think you can only be as good outward as you are inward. So speaker-0: Amen. Amen. And we'll link up all of those links for you guys to follow along, to get involved, to learn. I love Substack, so I'm really glad that you're on there. So I always ask my guests one question at the end of the show, and it is, what does it mean to you to live a revolutionary life? speaker-1: Hmm, such a good question. I think revolutionary life is being willing to change like get out of your comfort zone and things that you've never done, never thought was possible. Like for anything, it doesn't have don't wait till tragedy happens. Like I think there's this idea of getting out of your comfort zone and pushing yourself. And because on the other side of that fear and pushing yourself is the greatest, like that could be Where you can say, ⁓ I feel more alive today than I did when I was young. So that would be something I would say be willing to dance and be uncomfortable. speaker-0: Yeah, and to not think anything is wrong. It's just uncomfortable. It's just new. You're just doing it for the first time and it's not gonna be uncomfortable forever. I love this so much. Kim, you are a gift to humanity and I'm so grateful for our time together. Thank you for pouring out to everyone listening and I can't wait for this episode to get out there and I would love to ask you guys to please, please, please share this episode. Share it on your socials. share it with your friends. Let's just help to inform and educate people and spread the word because that's the power that we have. We have the power to do that. So thank you for listening and Kim, thank you so much for being here. speaker-1: Gosh, thank you so much for having me. It's finally we did it. speaker-0: We did. Thanks everyone. Thanks for listening in today. This show exists to help you shift your perspective, open up your heart, and live, lead, and create a revolutionary life. If you loved today's episode, leave us a review, rate, and subscribe. And while you're at it, tag me on social, at Hemingway Half Dozen, as you share this episode with anyone you know that is ready to step into more. Until next time, go out there and be the revolution.