บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Inventing the BitBox Hardware Wallet with Douglas Bakkum - FFS #114

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1 00:00:00,134 --> 00:00:01,964 Douglas, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show. 2 00:00:01,974 --> 00:00:02,954 Thanks for joining us. 3 00:00:03,164 --> 00:00:03,394 Yeah. 4 00:00:03,514 --> 00:00:04,664 Thank you very much for having me. 5 00:00:04,684 --> 00:00:05,354 Happy to be here. 6 00:00:05,654 --> 00:00:07,034 Happy to have you here, Douglas. 7 00:00:07,064 --> 00:00:11,224 Um, yes, for our, our listeners who don't know you, can you give us a 8 00:00:11,224 --> 00:00:12,934 little introduction about yourself? 9 00:00:12,964 --> 00:00:15,354 What's the TLDR on Douglas Backham? 10 00:00:16,074 --> 00:00:16,434 Yeah. 11 00:00:16,514 --> 00:00:18,441 Uh, I guess I've had multiple lives. 12 00:00:18,481 --> 00:00:22,677 My, my current life is, with the, uh, Bitbox hardware wallet. 13 00:00:23,227 --> 00:00:27,737 So, um, I'm the original inventor of the, the Bitbox01, that's now retired. 14 00:00:27,747 --> 00:00:30,937 We're on the Bitbox02, a hardware wallet for storing Bitcoin. 15 00:00:31,627 --> 00:00:34,877 And, um, yeah, at the beginning I kind of did it all. 16 00:00:34,887 --> 00:00:37,971 I have a technical background, but now I'm, uh, maybe by 17 00:00:37,971 --> 00:00:39,511 default got stuck as the CEO. 18 00:00:39,591 --> 00:00:42,191 And so I'm doing mostly, uh, talking to people. 19 00:00:43,561 --> 00:00:48,794 And, um, yeah, before that, uh, I was actually, neuroscientist, uh, at the 20 00:00:48,794 --> 00:00:51,077 university here in, Switzerland, ETH. 21 00:00:51,997 --> 00:00:56,607 And, um, yeah, I have a PhD in, uh, neuroengineering actually. 22 00:00:57,087 --> 00:00:59,937 And before that, uh, mechanical engineering did robotics, AI. 23 00:00:59,938 --> 00:01:03,927 And so I kind of had the, Uh, from my mechanical engineering background, 24 00:01:03,927 --> 00:01:07,177 I guess I had some of the skills developed, like coding, hardware, 25 00:01:07,587 --> 00:01:11,317 embedded firmware stuff to kind of build a, build a hardware wallet. 26 00:01:11,781 --> 00:01:14,571 So somewhere in between rocket science and brain surgeon, 27 00:01:15,057 --> 00:01:15,677 Yeah, something. 28 00:01:17,017 --> 00:01:19,457 between rocket science and brain surgery, I should say. 29 00:01:19,457 --> 00:01:25,867 But yeah, so I'm curious, how does one invent a Bitcoin hardware wallet? 30 00:01:25,917 --> 00:01:28,297 Like where, where does one start? 31 00:01:28,407 --> 00:01:30,417 Like, do you start with imagining? 32 00:01:30,822 --> 00:01:35,512 the software or the hardware and like do you tinker like what what 33 00:01:35,512 --> 00:01:37,372 goes on there explain the process 34 00:01:37,869 --> 00:01:43,129 Yeah, so, um, I guess when I first heard about Bitcoin, it was 2013. 35 00:01:43,606 --> 00:01:47,436 then after playing around a little bit, I, I, uh, started tinkering with 36 00:01:47,516 --> 00:01:50,986 hardware wallets around 2014, early 2014. 37 00:01:51,746 --> 00:01:56,196 And the concept had existed at the time, but there was nothing on the market. 38 00:01:57,212 --> 00:02:01,566 And, also at the same time, there's a lot of scams going around in hardware, 39 00:02:01,656 --> 00:02:03,096 in particular with mining equipment. 40 00:02:03,786 --> 00:02:06,616 Uh, and so there's a lot of, um, like mining equipment. 41 00:02:06,616 --> 00:02:09,716 There's big pre orders you had to do, so you had to pool together 42 00:02:09,716 --> 00:02:13,126 a bunch of money, and then you could buy some mining equipment. 43 00:02:13,422 --> 00:02:16,522 but the problem was that some people started taking advantage of it and 44 00:02:16,522 --> 00:02:21,042 basically doing scams, so collecting big pre orders and then, uh, running 45 00:02:21,042 --> 00:02:25,022 off with the money, or even fake companies, um, just never delivering. 46 00:02:25,772 --> 00:02:29,522 And I didn't know if that would happen with hardware wallets also, uh, and 47 00:02:29,522 --> 00:02:32,836 so, I thought, okay, just make my own. 48 00:02:33,466 --> 00:02:36,436 And I know when I first bought Bitcoin, uh, given my technical 49 00:02:36,446 --> 00:02:40,186 background, I kind of had some ideas of the security issues involved. 50 00:02:40,630 --> 00:02:44,380 took me probably a good two weeks before I actually felt comfortable holding it. 51 00:02:44,735 --> 00:02:48,705 it myself, because I understood a lot of the risks involved with self custody. 52 00:02:49,245 --> 00:02:54,045 And at the time, the most secure way to do it was to, you know, put your tinfoil 53 00:02:54,055 --> 00:03:01,992 hat on and go grab some old computer, rip out the, know, the networking parts of it, 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:07,550 install like a minimal Linux on it, and put Electrum on it, and then do all your 55 00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:09,260 transactions on this offline computer. 56 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,730 I'm like, okay, you know, and this, this This Bitcoin stuff, or at least 57 00:03:13,730 --> 00:03:18,020 the technology behind it, uh, I thought was super special, super powerful, but, 58 00:03:18,150 --> 00:03:22,210 you know, it's never gonna get anywhere if people have to do this, of course. 59 00:03:22,710 --> 00:03:25,940 And so HardwareWallet's, you know, it's basically a way to make offline 60 00:03:26,090 --> 00:03:29,160 computers, air gap computers, air gap system, uh, simple. 61 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,775 And so, yeah, I started building it. 62 00:03:32,335 --> 00:03:34,305 And, um, yeah, that was in my spare time. 63 00:03:34,305 --> 00:03:37,935 So my day job was still doing, um, yeah, neuroengineering, 64 00:03:37,935 --> 00:03:39,075 neuroscience experiments. 65 00:03:39,185 --> 00:03:41,875 Um, yeah, I was actually, I was a group leader at the time. 66 00:03:41,875 --> 00:03:44,465 So I had a little team, um, had a boss. 67 00:03:44,515 --> 00:03:48,495 Uh, he was pretty supportive of me also, uh, thankful to him. 68 00:03:49,311 --> 00:03:52,871 yeah, I was building some stuff and I guess the

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very first thing I did was, 69 00:03:53,203 --> 00:03:54,773 uh, try to understand cryptography. 70 00:03:55,364 --> 00:03:58,474 That's probably an important thing for, for this, this technology. 71 00:03:59,224 --> 00:04:04,764 Uh, and so I actually built my own, uh, cryptographic libraries to sign, 72 00:04:05,084 --> 00:04:07,409 uh, Bitcoin transactions, from scratch. 73 00:04:08,809 --> 00:04:11,789 It, it took a while, but it was, it was good for learning and they're 74 00:04:11,789 --> 00:04:13,979 very, very buggy, very, very slow. 75 00:04:14,184 --> 00:04:17,564 Probably full of vulnerabilities, but, uh, has a good learning experience. 76 00:04:17,584 --> 00:04:21,144 And then, uh, I think had that as a base and then started doing, 77 00:04:21,164 --> 00:04:22,674 uh, yeah, the hardware design. 78 00:04:23,194 --> 00:04:26,912 and yeah, people think hardware is kind of complicated, but, 79 00:04:27,183 --> 00:04:28,343 it's getting simpler and simpler. 80 00:04:28,353 --> 00:04:33,716 So, for example, for 10, you can get, at least at the time, you can get 10 PCBs, 81 00:04:34,088 --> 00:04:37,058 In 10 days, uh, for 10, uh, from China. 82 00:04:37,058 --> 00:04:40,648 And so you can do pretty rapid, prototyping cycles, uh, with that. 83 00:04:41,208 --> 00:04:44,768 And, yeah, and started, started doing some, uh, coding on Embedded 84 00:04:45,038 --> 00:04:46,748 Firmware, pick out some chips. 85 00:04:47,179 --> 00:04:51,249 you know, PCB design is kind of like, uh, connect the dots. 86 00:04:51,779 --> 00:04:54,239 I guess when you're a kid in grade school, you, you know, connect 87 00:04:54,239 --> 00:04:55,289 the dots between the numbers. 88 00:04:55,669 --> 00:04:56,349 It's kind of like that. 89 00:04:56,349 --> 00:05:00,709 You just have chips with pin numbers on it and you, uh, well, this one's for voltage. 90 00:05:00,709 --> 00:05:01,899 Okay, connect it to voltage. 91 00:05:01,969 --> 00:05:03,499 It's kind of a fun little thing. 92 00:05:03,890 --> 00:05:05,610 and lots of open source tools available. 93 00:05:05,630 --> 00:05:07,940 So, you know, anyone can really jump into it. 94 00:05:08,410 --> 00:05:10,250 And of course, you know, I'm, I'm simplifying it a lot. 95 00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:13,160 It takes a lot of work, a lot of, uh, uh, banging your head. 96 00:05:13,230 --> 00:05:14,770 There's probably a lot of times where I'm at night. 97 00:05:14,780 --> 00:05:16,450 I'm like, is this ever going to work? 98 00:05:16,630 --> 00:05:18,250 Um, but, you know, you keep fighting through it. 99 00:05:18,943 --> 00:05:25,753 I ended up getting a prototype and, um, yeah, I'm living in, um, uh, Basel 100 00:05:25,813 --> 00:05:30,490 at the time in Switzerland and, uh, went to some meetups in Zurich, Bitcoin 101 00:05:30,490 --> 00:05:35,956 meetups, really impressive, like a lot of big name, uh, people in the 102 00:05:35,956 --> 00:05:38,386 space were in the Switzerland area. 103 00:05:38,986 --> 00:05:43,426 I got to meet them at the meetups, um, and, uh, got really good feedback. 104 00:05:43,496 --> 00:05:47,286 And my co founder, who I started the business with originally. 105 00:05:47,856 --> 00:05:51,766 Um, Jonas Schnelly is one of the maybe most famous people in the Bitcoin space, 106 00:05:51,766 --> 00:05:55,666 one of the original core, maybe not original, but former core developer. 107 00:05:56,216 --> 00:05:57,476 Uh, we happen to live in the same city. 108 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:00,456 And so then, yeah, we decided, uh, started meeting up every 109 00:06:00,456 --> 00:06:01,806 week and said, hey, let's try 110 00:06:02,389 --> 00:06:07,742 nice and did you did you ever consider viewing Making a Bitcoin 111 00:06:07,752 --> 00:06:10,482 hardware wallet to be neuroscience. 112 00:06:12,712 --> 00:06:14,472 So let me explain that question a bit. 113 00:06:14,472 --> 00:06:18,762 Like that's, that's sort of our, our thing here on, uh, on the Freedom Footprint 114 00:06:18,762 --> 00:06:24,182 show is we view Satoshis not just as mere data, but that's something else 115 00:06:24,332 --> 00:06:30,572 since, You need a human brain to keep a secret from all other human brains 116 00:06:30,732 --> 00:06:33,582 in order for Bitcoin to work, right? 117 00:06:33,972 --> 00:06:39,092 And if you think about it, every single aspect of the Bitcoin requires 118 00:06:39,142 --> 00:06:41,252 a human to do something deliberately. 119 00:06:41,262 --> 00:06:44,352 It's not just code, it's a guy running code. 120 00:06:44,662 --> 00:06:49,422 And the same goes for miners, and for node runners, and for users. 121 00:06:49,907 --> 00:06:55,747 It all requires, uh, human action and, uh, deliberate action. 122 00:06:56,087 --> 00:07:02,017 So, in a way, you could view, uh, keeping, uh, keeping the secret of where your 123 00:07:02,017 --> 00:07:07,932 hardware wallet is and, uh, the passphrase for it as Neuroscience, I guess, 124 00:07:08,232 --> 00:07:12,772 because it's a, it's a bridge between the human brain and, and the computer. 125 00:07:13,102 --> 00:07:17,782 Um, yeah, this is a bit hippie ish, I know, but yeah. 126 00:07:18,596 --> 00:07:23,006 I would say there's some, there's some theories in, um, computer science, 127 00:07:23,056 --> 00:07:27,566 cognitive science, um, that talk about, uh, the importance of embodied cognition, 128 00:07:28,326 --> 00:07:32,186 and this was actually kind of part of my research, um, part of my PhD. 129 00:07:32,805 --> 00:07:36,865 where the theory is that you can't really separate the brain from 130 00:07:36,865 --> 00:07:38,475 the body from the environment. 131 00:07:38,585 --> 00:07:39,545 It all works together. 132 00:07:40,085 --> 00:07:44,325 Uh, and so, like, uh, if you want to study intelligence, it has to be, uh, 133 00:07:45,215 --> 00:07:51,305 in situ, in, in, um, in its natural environment, uh, in order for it, because 134 00:07:51,305 --> 00:07:55,365 it's designed to operate from your senses, it's designed to

operate from, 135 00:07:55,815 --> 00:07:57,425 uh, the world around it, around it. 136 00:07:57,925 --> 00:08:01,585 And so, and in that sense, uh, I would say neuroscientists. 137 00:08:02,627 --> 00:08:06,517 of them, maybe many of them, think that everything is, uh, part of the brain. 138 00:08:08,897 --> 00:08:11,207 You're saying everything is part of Satoshi. 139 00:08:11,247 --> 00:08:12,847 Neuroscience say everything is part of the brain. 140 00:08:12,847 --> 00:08:14,957 So maybe, yeah, I guess it fits together. 141 00:08:15,358 --> 00:08:15,648 Yeah. 142 00:08:15,648 --> 00:08:16,298 I love that. 143 00:08:16,758 --> 00:08:19,768 There's a lot of that, that kind of stuff in the, in the 144 00:08:19,768 --> 00:08:21,548 book we're writing currently. 145 00:08:21,548 --> 00:08:26,637 And like, because there's no, no one knows to which extent the brain creates 146 00:08:26,637 --> 00:08:32,437 reality and the, the, the objective subjective dichotomy might be entirely. 147 00:08:33,232 --> 00:08:38,482 You know, um, what's the word? 148 00:08:38,622 --> 00:08:39,302 Um, 149 00:08:39,527 --> 00:08:40,187 Fictitious. 150 00:08:40,272 --> 00:08:41,102 fictitious. 151 00:08:41,122 --> 00:08:42,102 Yeah, exactly. 152 00:08:42,267 --> 00:08:45,377 think, yeah, Philosophy 101, they teach you about the mind in a vat. 153 00:08:45,722 --> 00:08:49,312 Uh, experiment, I think, where how can you tell if you're in the real 154 00:08:49,312 --> 00:08:51,092 world or if you're in a simulation? 155 00:08:51,242 --> 00:08:51,922 I think there's no answer. 156 00:08:52,262 --> 00:08:52,612 Yeah. 157 00:08:52,652 --> 00:08:55,582 Are you familiar with the concept called the Boltzmann brain? 158 00:08:56,327 --> 00:08:56,977 Not the name. 159 00:08:57,127 --> 00:08:57,797 I'm not sure. 160 00:08:58,127 --> 00:09:02,127 Uh, there's Ludwig Boltzmann from Boltzmann. 161 00:09:02,127 --> 00:09:06,567 I, I don't, I don't remember if there's a von there or not, but Boltzmann, uh, 162 00:09:07,047 --> 00:09:13,499 came up with the concept of, you know, since, um, quantum mechanics is a thing. 163 00:09:13,539 --> 00:09:14,419 A particle can just. 164 00:09:14,979 --> 00:09:18,409 theoretically pop up, uh, into being anywhere. 165 00:09:18,779 --> 00:09:24,879 And if the universe is truly infinite, then there would be a chance of, um, 166 00:09:25,119 --> 00:09:31,149 particles just popping up to, uh, by pure chance to form a brain somewhere in 167 00:09:31,239 --> 00:09:36,339 literal vacuum in outer space somewhere to exist for just a couple of nanoseconds. 168 00:09:37,024 --> 00:09:40,384 But those nanoseconds will be enough for that brain to come up 169 00:09:40,404 --> 00:09:42,794 with an entire universe of its own. 170 00:09:43,694 --> 00:09:46,854 And there is no way of knowing if we're living inside one of 171 00:09:46,854 --> 00:09:50,664 those imaginary Boltzmann brain universes or the real thing. 172 00:09:51,054 --> 00:09:56,689 So, yeah, it's a very

weird theory, but I love it because it's, it's so out there. 173 00:09:57,489 --> 00:09:58,289 And in there. 174 00:10:01,819 --> 00:10:03,229 Yeah, there was no question there. 175 00:10:04,449 --> 00:10:05,819 Luke, do you have a question in mind? 176 00:10:06,584 --> 00:10:07,514 Well, okay. 177 00:10:07,514 --> 00:10:10,374 So, I mean, this, this neuroscience topic is, is fascinating. 178 00:10:10,374 --> 00:10:14,114 And so, I mean, I guess that's the origins of, of, uh, of Bitbox, right? 179 00:10:14,174 --> 00:10:22,544 But, I mean, now, nowadays, uh, Bitbox is is up there with, you know, it's 180 00:10:22,724 --> 00:10:31,514 frequently cited as one of the easiest to use and the open source ethos of it. 181 00:10:31,514 --> 00:10:34,754 I mean, I think that's what attracted us to it. 182 00:10:34,974 --> 00:10:37,874 It was really just all by reputation, basically. 183 00:10:37,874 --> 00:10:39,524 So how did you build? 184 00:10:39,524 --> 00:10:44,494 What was your philosophy, I guess, in building this company 185 00:10:44,664 --> 00:10:46,764 and Growing it into that. 186 00:10:46,854 --> 00:10:51,114 Now there's the, the bit box zero two and, um, I don't know, just 187 00:10:51,114 --> 00:10:55,854 the, the takeover, uh, so to say of this, uh, hardware wallet market. 188 00:10:56,329 --> 00:10:57,689 uh, first of all, a small tangent. 189 00:10:57,689 --> 00:10:57,949 Yeah. 190 00:10:57,949 --> 00:11:04,319 So, So, it came out of a neuroengineering neuroscience lab, um, so it, we actually 191 00:11:04,319 --> 00:11:08,995 were a spinoff of the university, believe it or not, I think it was just 192 00:11:08,995 --> 00:11:13,329 marketing for the university, and you have to have some kind of what they call 193 00:11:13,329 --> 00:11:18,989 technology transfer from academia to, to the business, and that was basically 194 00:11:19,039 --> 00:11:24,219 the, um, so I say neuroengineering, so the lab I was in would build, um. 195 00:11:25,764 --> 00:11:29,574 New machines, new technology, including ASICs, uh, embedded 196 00:11:29,584 --> 00:11:33,384 stuff, uh, to study neurons, and I was using that to do experiments. 197 00:11:34,264 --> 00:11:38,324 And so the technology transfer was taking this, uh, like PCB design, 198 00:11:38,334 --> 00:11:42,014 embedded programming stuff, put it into a company and it completely different. 199 00:11:42,904 --> 00:11:44,884 Somehow that worked, so we got the label. 200 00:11:45,456 --> 00:11:49,645 then, um, besides that, I think there's probably no relation. 201 00:11:49,766 --> 00:11:56,709 I think with respect to, uh, this company, yeah, I guess, uh, 202 00:11:57,999 --> 00:12:01,269 I can't come from a small town, um, you know, modest upbringing, 203 00:12:01,974 --> 00:12:05,994 middle class family and in America. 204 00:12:06,044 --> 00:12:08,064 So I'm living in Switzerland, but from America originally. 205 00:12:08,064 --> 00:12:11,914 So I guess, uh, yeah, people say it's dying, but I think there's still some 206 00:12:11,924 --> 00:12:16,634 of this pioneer spirit left, uh, like independence, uh, things like that. 207 00:12:17,094 --> 00:12:20,334 Um, and so what really attracted me, one of the big things that attracted me 208 00:12:20,334 --> 00:12:22,524 to Bitcoin was kind of this concept of. 209 00:12:22,904 --> 00:12:26,284 Taking power away from central agencies and giving it to individuals, 210 00:12:26,284 --> 00:12:31,214 to people, such that they have an opportunity to improve their lives, 211 00:12:32,571 --> 00:12:33,781 build a better life for themselves. 212 00:12:33,811 --> 00:12:39,531 And I think anytime you take power away from the people or power to the people, 213 00:12:39,801 --> 00:12:43,421 if it's from centralized agencies or, you know, whatever it is, you know, 214 00:12:43,441 --> 00:12:46,421 fire, giving that to individuals. 215 00:12:47,093 --> 00:12:50,813 you can, you don't know what the future holds, but usually it's, uh, a better 216 00:12:50,813 --> 00:12:52,813 life for the whole world, in my opinion. 217 00:12:53,648 --> 00:12:59,898 and so I think Bitcoin, um, has this capability and I was really interested 218 00:12:59,898 --> 00:13:02,178 in contributing to it in some way. 219 00:13:02,807 --> 00:13:06,347 yeah, I didn't, with my neuroscience, um, uh, career, 220 00:13:06,347 --> 00:13:07,727 the next step would be academia. 221 00:13:08,032 --> 00:13:09,462 Um, didn't know if I wanted to do that. 222 00:13:09,972 --> 00:13:12,732 Um, didn't think anyone in Bitcoin would give me a job. 223 00:13:13,252 --> 00:13:18,172 Uh, so yeah, okay, can make a company, uh, give myself a job. 224 00:13:18,342 --> 00:13:19,502 That's, that's one aspect. 225 00:13:20,012 --> 00:13:24,512 And then particularly to this, um, like I mentioned before, it took me two 226 00:13:24,512 --> 00:13:26,522 weeks to get comfortable holding coins. 227 00:13:26,562 --> 00:13:27,982 And so I wanted to make it easy for people. 228 00:13:28,882 --> 00:13:34,332 Uh, and so equip people with the tools they need, um, empower them to 229 00:13:34,332 --> 00:13:36,952 participate in this, uh, ecosystem. 230 00:13:37,573 --> 00:13:42,463 give them the security they need and try to make it as easy as possible such 231 00:13:42,463 --> 00:13:46,973 that they can be comfortable as many people can, uh, if they want, um, jump 232 00:13:46,973 --> 00:13:50,173 in and, um, do something for themselves. 233 00:13:50,672 --> 00:13:53,972 how did you come up with the slick design of the, of the bitbox? 234 00:13:54,392 --> 00:13:59,162 Because those little touch buttons that aren't really buttons at 235 00:13:59,162 --> 00:14:01,047 all, you just Touch the thing. 236 00:14:01,057 --> 00:14:02,967 Like, uh, I really like that. 237 00:14:03,367 --> 00:14:05,477 Um, so how do you come up with that? 238 00:14:06,542 --> 00:14:07,412 Yeah, um, 239 00:14:09,712 --> 00:14:11,052 personal philosophy, I guess. 240 00:14:11,112 --> 00:14:12,892 I've

always been more of a minimalist. 241 00:14:12,972 --> 00:14:13,902 Type of person. 242 00:14:14,172 --> 00:14:18,862 Um, it's like kind of like a, a zen minimalist kind of, um, 243 00:14:19,812 --> 00:14:21,582 aesthetic has always attracted me. 244 00:14:22,182 --> 00:14:25,872 And so when I was designing, um, the original bit box and also the bit 245 00:14:25,872 --> 00:14:30,452 Box O2, uh, one thing we had in mind was to, um, kind of keep it discreet. 246 00:14:31,317 --> 00:14:33,627 Keep it simple, keep it really smooth, slick. 247 00:14:34,272 --> 00:14:37,962 and I think people appreciate that, uh, because, you know, if, if you 248 00:14:37,962 --> 00:14:41,342 have your life savings on one of these, you don't want people to, hey, 249 00:14:41,772 --> 00:14:42,972 I know what that thing is, you know. 250 00:14:43,552 --> 00:14:47,912 Um, so try to keep it looking kind of like a USB stick, uh, basically. 251 00:14:48,391 --> 00:14:53,664 and that also means, um, kind of hiding the user interface, so the touch 252 00:14:53,664 --> 00:14:57,979 buttons, like the Bitbox01 also had, um, A single touch button with an LED, 253 00:14:58,339 --> 00:15:01,059 but buried beneath the plastic, you wouldn't see it unless you plugged it in. 254 00:15:01,869 --> 00:15:06,379 Um, the Bitbox02 has the, yeah, call it invisible touch sensors on the side. 255 00:15:06,869 --> 00:15:09,669 Uh, also the screen, you wouldn't even notice it has a screen until 256 00:15:09,669 --> 00:15:11,019 you plug it in and it lights up. 257 00:15:11,664 --> 00:15:13,224 and then, of course, we want it to look pretty. 258 00:15:14,414 --> 00:15:16,164 I can't say how that happened. 259 00:15:17,384 --> 00:15:21,304 It's luck, or if there's some kind of innate, uh, providence 260 00:15:21,304 --> 00:15:22,304 or, yeah, probably luck. 261 00:15:23,224 --> 00:15:24,304 No, but it's super cool. 262 00:15:24,304 --> 00:15:29,044 And I'm like, yeah, I see all the other hardware wallet companies, 263 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,320 build these flashy things with, uh, big screens and color screens and 264 00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:38,730 tons of buttons and stuff, and like, I just want my, uh, hardware wallet 265 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,770 to be as simple as possible, like I want it to be the bare minimum, I 266 00:15:42,770 --> 00:15:44,380 don't want it to do anything else. 267 00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:46,550 But then, then sign transactions. 268 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:47,680 That's, that's all. 269 00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:52,990 Yeah, so, uh, I guess part of our core philosophy is to make 270 00:15:52,990 --> 00:15:54,210 things as simple as possible. 271 00:15:54,210 --> 00:15:56,820 Again, so, you know, anyone can join. 272 00:15:57,490 --> 00:16:02,210 And, um, you know, it has to do with the whole UX, um, how you deal with 273 00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:05,030 it, how our app We also try to make our app really simple and minimal. 274 00:16:05,739 --> 00:16:08,679 besides that, we also

think privacy is extremely important. 275 00:16:09,196 --> 00:16:12,576 and so a lot of things we do is with privacy in mind also. 276 00:16:13,186 --> 00:16:17,346 And so we don't have any labels of Bitbox on the hardware wallet itself. 277 00:16:17,973 --> 00:16:22,243 when we ship packages, we don't mention Bitcoin, um, don't mention 278 00:16:22,253 --> 00:16:23,673 hardware wallet, things like that. 279 00:16:24,213 --> 00:16:26,033 Um, and lots of other examples. 280 00:16:26,695 --> 00:16:31,415 And I guess you don't keep a database of all of your customers addresses 281 00:16:32,665 --> 00:16:37,145 for a hacker to hack, which allegedly happened to some other hardware 282 00:16:37,145 --> 00:16:38,645 wallets that we shall not mention. 283 00:16:39,128 --> 00:16:42,748 yeah, you can see our privacy policy on our website, but basically, um, 284 00:16:43,488 --> 00:16:47,628 yeah, we need to, like, we collect user information in the shop. 285 00:16:47,848 --> 00:16:50,928 Uh, we need to keep that until your order gets shipped out and maybe for, 286 00:16:51,208 --> 00:16:54,958 you know, a few weeks after, uh, in case you have any issues with shipping 287 00:16:54,958 --> 00:16:56,428 or you want to return it or whatever. 288 00:16:56,938 --> 00:16:59,518 Uh, but then we anonymize everything after about a month. 289 00:17:00,378 --> 00:17:05,278 And, uh, yeah, even we even talked to the Swiss government and they say, okay, 290 00:17:05,278 --> 00:17:07,698 yeah, you can anonymize your invoices too. 291 00:17:07,698 --> 00:17:08,568 That's, that's okay. 292 00:17:08,568 --> 00:17:09,158 That works. 293 00:17:09,698 --> 00:17:13,058 Um, and so, yeah, we try to minimize as much as possible. 294 00:17:13,608 --> 00:17:14,788 Yeah, we do have a newsletter. 295 00:17:14,848 --> 00:17:19,118 Um, so we have, uh, but we collect the minimal amount of information, just your 296 00:17:19,958 --> 00:17:23,638 email address and your, your name can be whatever you can use anonymous stuff. 297 00:17:24,118 --> 00:17:28,048 Uh, and I would say that, um, yeah, unfortunately with. 298 00:17:28,403 --> 00:17:31,463 Um, mailing newsletters, you kind of, kind of have to use 299 00:17:31,463 --> 00:17:32,893 a centralized entity to do it. 300 00:17:33,363 --> 00:17:37,943 Um, and so you, you should just expect with us or with anyone that if you put 301 00:17:37,943 --> 00:17:40,023 data on a newsletter, it's probably going to get hacked at some point. 302 00:17:40,693 --> 00:17:42,213 But we try to minimize the exposure. 303 00:17:42,954 --> 00:17:43,634 Good to hear. 304 00:17:43,694 --> 00:17:48,464 So speaking of privacy and things like that, like, what's your view 305 00:17:48,474 --> 00:17:51,134 on the current state of Bitcoin? 306 00:17:51,314 --> 00:17:55,094 Do you think we're in a healthy state or not at the moment? 307 00:17:56,693 --> 00:17:59,183 yeah, I, I don't really think of healthy or not. 308 00:17:59,183 --> 00:18:00,073 I think just early. 309 00:18:00,563 --> 00:18:01,123 I think it's early. 310 00:18:01,553 --> 00:18:03,733 I think there's still going to be bumps in the road. 311 00:18:04,253 --> 00:18:07,658 Um, There's still going to be bumps in the road that we don't foresee, 312 00:18:07,848 --> 00:18:10,838 you know, right now some bumps in the road that people do see is with 313 00:18:11,228 --> 00:18:14,028 government regulation, things like that. 314 00:18:14,338 --> 00:18:18,398 Maybe some use cases for Bitcoin, how people are using the protocol itself, 315 00:18:19,349 --> 00:18:20,809 putting extra data in it, whatever. 316 00:18:21,739 --> 00:18:26,269 To me, I don't really focus on it too much because I think the technology 317 00:18:26,269 --> 00:18:29,749 itself is so superior that it's going to win out in the end anyways. 318 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,059 Of course, you know, it's good that people do pay attention to this. 319 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:36,389 They do bring up awareness and they do fight for the cause 320 00:18:36,769 --> 00:18:37,919 in whatever field they're in. 321 00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:47,469 If it's legal or coders keeping things legitimate, things like that. 322 00:18:47,809 --> 00:18:50,999 So I'm I'm not too worried about it. 323 00:18:50,999 --> 00:18:56,689 I think in general, um, I would judge maybe the health of it more 324 00:18:56,689 --> 00:19:00,359 based off of adoption and knowledge. 325 00:19:00,741 --> 00:19:03,171 and I think even there, we're still pretty early. 326 00:19:03,231 --> 00:19:08,171 So now, compared to 2014, you know, when almost no one knew about it, 327 00:19:08,781 --> 00:19:11,641 I think a lot of people in the world have at least heard about it. 328 00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:15,346 Although I think most of the people in the world still don't understand it. 329 00:19:16,056 --> 00:19:18,616 And so it's baby steps, right? 330 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:23,016 And I think it's an ongoing educational thing and I think it takes people a 331 00:19:23,016 --> 00:19:25,116 different amount of time to figure it out. 332 00:19:25,146 --> 00:19:27,126 But I'm pretty confident in the direction. 333 00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:28,599 Yeah, good to hear. 334 00:19:28,629 --> 00:19:35,349 Uh, yeah, there's one thing that there that I'm, I'm, Myself, I'm conflicted 335 00:19:35,349 --> 00:19:41,139 about, and that is, uh, if I prefer a pro Bitcoin politician or an anti 336 00:19:41,349 --> 00:19:46,669 Bitcoin politician, because there's, there's a dilemma there because if, if 337 00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:51,219 you need a politician to allow you to use Bitcoin, then, then what's the point? 338 00:19:51,379 --> 00:19:53,029 It doesn't really work in that case. 339 00:19:53,059 --> 00:19:57,849 So maybe an anti Bitcoin politician would even be preferable because it 340 00:19:57,849 --> 00:20:00,369 would push people into best practices. 341 00:20:00,469 --> 00:20:02,669 So do you have any views on that? 342 00:20:04,049 --> 00:20:05,959 No,

I think how you state it is 343 00:20:07,969 --> 00:20:08,579 nicely done. 344 00:20:10,129 --> 00:20:12,579 It's a debate I don't think I have an answer for. 345 00:20:13,619 --> 00:20:18,269 Maybe one thing I could say is another analogy to my academic career. 346 00:20:18,994 --> 00:20:24,203 is, um, oftentimes you see, like science is all, some people think 347 00:20:24,203 --> 00:20:27,853 science is like a fix, people know facts and stuff like that, but it's 348 00:20:27,853 --> 00:20:31,173 not at all, especially in the brain, people really don't know anything. 349 00:20:31,233 --> 00:20:33,283 They have theories and stuff like that, but they get proven 350 00:20:33,283 --> 00:20:34,653 wrong every, every decade. 351 00:20:35,383 --> 00:20:38,653 And so oftentimes, not only in neuroscience, but in any field, 352 00:20:38,683 --> 00:20:42,683 when someone comes with a new idea that challenges the existing 353 00:20:42,713 --> 00:20:44,818 dogma, There's always pushback. 354 00:20:45,668 --> 00:20:50,628 And usually what happens with scientific revolutions is actually the pushback 355 00:20:52,768 --> 00:20:58,018 ends after, you know, a generation or two of scientists retire. 356 00:20:59,218 --> 00:21:01,828 And then the new scientists who come up have a more open mind, 357 00:21:01,838 --> 00:21:04,108 they read the research, like, oh, this makes a lot of sense. 358 00:21:04,858 --> 00:21:05,898 Oh, this makes a lot of sense. 359 00:21:05,948 --> 00:21:08,268 And so you get new people coming, they understand it. 360 00:21:08,658 --> 00:21:11,908 And then within a few generations, then you have a new scientific theory 361 00:21:12,208 --> 00:21:13,748 that's established and accepted. 362 00:21:14,538 --> 00:21:17,258 And probably it's going to be the same for, for Bitcoin. 363 00:21:18,258 --> 00:21:21,788 And so I think, yeah, you know, right now around the world, especially in America, 364 00:21:21,888 --> 00:21:28,888 there's a lot of, um, politicians who are maybe should be retired, but they're not. 365 00:21:28,888 --> 00:21:33,483 Transcribed And I think, you know, in a matter of time as, um, new 366 00:21:33,483 --> 00:21:36,653 generations come and they understand the technology better, they understand 367 00:21:36,653 --> 00:21:39,073 the impacts better, that's probably how the change is going to happen. 368 00:21:39,753 --> 00:21:43,833 Yeah, they're, they're regarded rather than retired anyways. 369 00:21:44,153 --> 00:21:49,333 So, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's your explanation there that to me, that's 370 00:21:49,363 --> 00:21:55,443 the difference between science and the science, which is, uh, what most people 371 00:21:55,743 --> 00:21:58,553 think is science, but it really isn't. 372 00:21:58,613 --> 00:22:02,193 If, uh, if you can't question it, it's not science. 373 00:22:02,223 --> 00:22:06,813 Like nothing is ever, never, ever, uh, fully established 374 00:22:07,534 --> 00:22:08,134 okay, so go. 375 00:22:08,224 --> 00:22:11,614 Going back to going back back to the bit box itself a little bit, 376 00:22:11,974 --> 00:22:15,004 um, what is the, uh, uh, the. 377 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:19,299 Uh, the, the, the privacy, the privacy aspect is, is great. 378 00:22:19,299 --> 00:22:20,539 I'm glad you touched on that. 379 00:22:20,869 --> 00:22:24,229 Uh, what are the other things that sort of set Bitbox apart 380 00:22:24,289 --> 00:22:26,169 from the other options out there? 381 00:22:26,169 --> 00:22:28,959 Because there, there are plenty of hardware waltz to choose from. 382 00:22:28,959 --> 00:22:31,679 Why, why would someone pick the Bitbox? 383 00:22:32,106 --> 00:22:33,046 yeah, thank you for asking. 384 00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:36,450 I guess when it comes to hardware wallets, there's two main concepts. 385 00:22:36,450 --> 00:22:40,560 One is, um, Security, of course, another is usability. 386 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:42,800 I think privacy kind of fits into security. 387 00:22:43,497 --> 00:22:45,857 and I, in my opinion, of course, I'm biased. 388 00:22:45,857 --> 00:22:49,037 I think the Bitbox outshines the competition in both aspects. 389 00:22:49,597 --> 00:22:53,132 Although I would say security now, um, you probably can't go 390 00:22:53,132 --> 00:22:55,602 wrong with any major hard rule. 391 00:22:56,062 --> 00:23:00,042 Right now, um, they're all, they're all pretty secure, so it's more kind of 392 00:23:00,082 --> 00:23:04,381 nitpicky in the details, although I think we have some, more advanced concepts 393 00:23:04,431 --> 00:23:09,811 that kind of, kind of do put us ahead, such as, um, anti klepto, um, stuff for, 394 00:23:10,711 --> 00:23:15,735 Some really, really tangential security on how you do signatures, encrypted 395 00:23:15,735 --> 00:23:18,365 RAM, um, yeah, some things like that. 396 00:23:18,665 --> 00:23:21,841 But I think where we really shine, is in usability. 397 00:23:22,159 --> 00:23:25,579 so one thing we're really proud about is oftentimes we hear people say, Hey! 398 00:23:26,469 --> 00:23:30,519 The bid box is the hard role that I will give to my, my partner or my family. 399 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,380 and I, I think, you know, that really makes me feel, feel nice because 400 00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:36,630 that was kind of the goal, you know, to get more people involved. 401 00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:39,720 And if bid box is the, the harder role, the choice that they make 402 00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,600 to, uh, get other people involved that they think should be involved, 403 00:23:43,630 --> 00:23:45,340 uh, yeah, that, that feels good. 404 00:23:45,345 --> 00:23:45,595 And so. 405 00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:52,095 Um, yeah, we have the, the touch sensors, um, which, uh, allows for, um, you know, 406 00:23:52,095 --> 00:23:56,655 I think, unique, fun experience, but also functionally allows for faster input. 407 00:23:57,013 --> 00:24:00,093 it's very, very new, very novel, so it takes a little while to get used to, 408

00:24:00,093 --> 00:24:03,743 but once you're used to it, you know, a couple of tries, then you'll Um, I 409 00:24:03,753 --> 00:24:05,003 think it's a pretty nice experience. 410 00:24:05,482 --> 00:24:11,022 one thing that we did from the very beginning was, um, adding a 411 00:24:11,052 --> 00:24:13,422 micro, onboard micro SD card slot. 412 00:24:13,832 --> 00:24:16,942 I think we're still the only one who does this, uh, in 413 00:24:16,942 --> 00:24:19,362 terms of backups and recovery. 414 00:24:19,952 --> 00:24:23,982 Uh, and so one thing, um, if you're used to software wallets or hardware 415 00:24:23,982 --> 00:24:27,782 wallets, you, when you make a backup, when you first create the wallet, You 416 00:24:27,782 --> 00:24:29,162 have to write down this word list. 417 00:24:29,992 --> 00:24:35,411 It's 12 or 24 words called a mnemonic seed, and we call it mnemonic anxiety, 418 00:24:35,451 --> 00:24:40,101 where, you know, it can take 20 minutes, 30 minutes to do this on a 419 00:24:40,101 --> 00:24:43,591 hard wallet, because then after you write it down, you have to reenter it to 420 00:24:43,591 --> 00:24:44,791 make sure you didn't make any mistakes. 421 00:24:45,241 --> 00:24:48,905 It's quite stressful because if you make one typo, you could be locked out of 422 00:24:48,905 --> 00:24:50,805 your funds if you ever try to recover. 423 00:24:51,158 --> 00:24:54,238 and what we do is, uh, try to eliminate that. 424 00:24:54,288 --> 00:25:00,138 So, uh, we use a onboard microSD card such that when you set up the wallet, 425 00:25:00,568 --> 00:25:02,758 um, all this stuff happens instantly. 426 00:25:03,081 --> 00:25:05,711 uh, as a backup onto the micro SD card. 427 00:25:05,721 --> 00:25:09,351 So instead of spending 20 to 30 minutes in a very stressful way, you can just 428 00:25:09,351 --> 00:25:12,881 take, you know, a few instances, uh, in a stress free way, in a way people 429 00:25:12,891 --> 00:25:14,661 understand also, that's important. 430 00:25:14,931 --> 00:25:18,471 People don't really understand why they're doing this, uh, where this, what the 431 00:25:18,481 --> 00:25:20,261 meaning is, what I need to do with it. 432 00:25:20,971 --> 00:25:24,117 Uh, and I, I think, um, that, that's another nice example. 433 00:25:24,427 --> 00:25:26,017 And I, of course, mentioned the app again. 434 00:25:26,107 --> 00:25:29,517 Uh, we do a lot to, you know, keep it clean, uh, basic and functional. 435 00:25:30,382 --> 00:25:31,582 Yeah, the app is great. 436 00:25:31,622 --> 00:25:36,402 I mean, the whole functionality of the thing is very slick 437 00:25:36,402 --> 00:25:38,492 and very, very nice to use. 438 00:25:38,995 --> 00:25:43,775 So what's, what's on the, for lack of a better word, roadmap? 439 00:25:44,315 --> 00:25:46,905 What's in the future for Bitbox? 440 00:25:46,906 --> 00:25:46,921 Bitbox. 441 00:25:47,572 --> 00:25:47,792 yeah. 442 00:25:47,812 --> 00:25:48,282 So. 443 00:25:49,615 --> 00:25:55,365 I always hesitate to to, to give timelines or deadlines or things like that because 444 00:25:55,485 --> 00:25:57,285 it always takes longer than expected. 445 00:25:57,615 --> 00:26:01,781 But I guess in general, uh, one thing we're really interested in, yeah, 446 00:26:01,781 --> 00:26:04,211 we're doing a lot of development both at hardware and software. 447 00:26:04,271 --> 00:26:06,311 One thing we're really interested in is user feedback. 448 00:26:06,731 --> 00:26:10,211 Uh, and so yeah, just maybe quickly, first I'd say anyone listening out there. 449 00:26:10,586 --> 00:26:12,306 We used a Bitbox. 450 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,396 If you have any feedback, we're really, really happy to accept 451 00:26:15,406 --> 00:26:20,066 that feedback, to take it when we're trying to build new products. 452 00:26:20,526 --> 00:26:23,586 And so, yeah, we're working on new hardware versions. 453 00:26:24,006 --> 00:26:25,446 The Bitbox02 is not going to go away. 454 00:26:25,576 --> 00:26:28,915 We're planning that to continue, but we're working on complementary versions. 455 00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:34,346 Hardware wallet versions, too early to go into details, uh, but then also, uh, 456 00:26:34,806 --> 00:26:39,116 continuously spending a lot of time on the app itself, trying to make it more 457 00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:43,786 and more user friendly, uh, try to add in functions that people, uh, request. 458 00:26:44,266 --> 00:26:48,146 Uh, so I think one really nice thing about the Bitbox, uh, we have a 459 00:26:48,146 --> 00:26:51,526 partnership with another Swiss company called Pocket, uh, which allows, 460 00:26:51,546 --> 00:26:55,256 um, buying Bitcoin, like dollar cost averaging, uh, things like that. 461 00:26:55,895 --> 00:26:59,705 Really nice thing is that based in Switzerland, uh, there's a law where 462 00:26:59,705 --> 00:27:04,295 there's no extra KYC, so they need to know your bank account, of course, 463 00:27:04,405 --> 00:27:05,615 when you send in money, but that's it. 464 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:10,470 And there's no extra KYC, and you can buy a Bitcoin for a thousand 465 00:27:10,510 --> 00:27:15,270 euro, about a thousand francs a day, uh, without any extra KYC. 466 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,063 And I think, really nice thing is if you're getting into, um, the Bitcoin 467 00:27:21,063 --> 00:27:22,823 space, you don't know where to start. 468 00:27:23,343 --> 00:27:26,153 Uh, one thing you can do is just simply buy a Bitbox. 469 00:27:26,893 --> 00:27:30,143 Uh, you don't need any crypto to begin with, any Bitcoin to begin with. 470 00:27:30,733 --> 00:27:32,203 And, um, just. 471 00:27:32,698 --> 00:27:35,988 Set up your wallet, and then inside the app itself, we have an integration 472 00:27:35,988 --> 00:27:39,198 with Pocket, where it's like really, really simple just to get started 473 00:27:39,198 --> 00:27:40,588 and buy some, buy some Bitcoin. 474 00:27:41,218 --> 00:27:43,598 and we're going to implement, uh, Cell soon. 475

00:27:43,748 --> 00:27:44,298 That's coming. 476 00:27:45,048 --> 00:27:49,076 Um, we've been working on, um, some Lightning stuff. 477 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,715 still kind of experimental, but hopefully that will happen. 478 00:27:52,035 --> 00:27:56,200 That will come out sometime later, working on, yeah, just, you know, 479 00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:58,290 small bug fixes, things like that. 480 00:27:58,410 --> 00:28:02,928 I recently came out with a watch only wallet, thinking about, um, you know, 481 00:28:03,768 --> 00:28:07,088 easier ways to import, export notes, uh, you know, a bunch of small things 482 00:28:07,148 --> 00:28:11,668 that, uh, basically, You know, we try to listen to our users and try 483 00:28:11,668 --> 00:28:15,948 to implement their feedback and then make a better and better product. 484 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:17,090 Nice. 485 00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:20,050 And, and yeah, there's a lot going on in Switzerland. 486 00:28:20,050 --> 00:28:24,700 I was in Switzerland two weeks ago, uh, in Lugano on the other side. 487 00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:29,610 Uh, so do you have any collaborations there with, with the Plan B 488 00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:30,900 or, or anything like that? 489 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:35,170 I'd say no, no close collaborations, but we, we talk to them all the time. 490 00:28:35,230 --> 00:28:39,560 Um, so we're, we've always been, um, uh, part of their conferences 491 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,440 that happen in the fall, which are excellent, excellent conferences. 492 00:28:44,055 --> 00:28:49,354 and yeah, go there, help with, um, the agenda, give talks, give 493 00:28:49,354 --> 00:28:51,844 workshops, um, sponsor, have a booth. 494 00:28:51,994 --> 00:28:55,564 Um, it's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful city. 495 00:28:56,874 --> 00:28:57,884 It's really nice. 496 00:28:58,364 --> 00:28:58,784 Um, 497 00:28:58,809 --> 00:29:03,769 I, like my experience there is that everything is five star. 498 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:07,519 It's a five star town in a five star, uh, country. 499 00:29:07,879 --> 00:29:09,569 And it's a five star conference. 500 00:29:09,569 --> 00:29:11,329 I mean, Lugano Plan B is great. 501 00:29:11,819 --> 00:29:16,009 Uh, yeah, uh, all aspects of it is just phenomenal. 502 00:29:16,622 --> 00:29:16,772 Yeah. 503 00:29:16,772 --> 00:29:20,402 So in speaking of conferences, uh, we, we actually, we all met for the first 504 00:29:20,402 --> 00:29:25,142 time on, on Madera, and that's where we, where, where we first, uh, I guess 505 00:29:25,142 --> 00:29:29,702 we, we heard the, the a, a bit of the roadmap from the, the bit box side. 506 00:29:29,707 --> 00:29:33,122 And we ended up spending, uh, uh, some time in the, the line 507 00:29:33,122 --> 00:29:34,442 waiting for the, the plane. 508 00:29:34,532 --> 00:29:34,922 Uh. 509 00:29:35,417 --> 00:29:39,747 Uh, off of, off of Madeira, I think to our, to our first, uh, layover back home. 510 00:29:39,747 --> 00:29:43,657 But, uh, um, so

it's just great to, to catch up to, uh, 511 00:29:43,717 --> 00:29:45,527 with Bitcoiners in person. 512 00:29:45,777 --> 00:29:48,757 I guess one question is what did you think of the, uh, the Madeira 513 00:29:48,757 --> 00:29:49,957 conference, Bitcoin Atlantis? 514 00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:51,480 yeah, Madeira was great. 515 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,160 Uh, yeah, I didn't really have any expectations going in. 516 00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:57,370 It was their first conference. 517 00:29:57,430 --> 00:30:01,755 Um, But it got there a really beautiful location also, really 518 00:30:01,755 --> 00:30:05,944 amazing location, really fun conference, uh, in a, in a football 519 00:30:05,944 --> 00:30:10,824 stadium, which is really interesting and, um, great, great speakers. 520 00:30:10,934 --> 00:30:15,074 They attracted, like, really nice speakers, not in, in Europe. 521 00:30:15,074 --> 00:30:20,059 Sometimes you don't get all of the, um, I guess North American speakers to come. 522 00:30:20,439 --> 00:30:23,989 Uh, but they're all there, so a really nice mix of both, uh, the European 523 00:30:23,989 --> 00:30:25,539 and the North American communities. 524 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:27,529 Um, really great vibes. 525 00:30:27,959 --> 00:30:30,139 Uh, yeah, quite, quite loved it. 526 00:30:30,959 --> 00:30:35,389 I'm very happy to hear that, and yeah, we'll see when the next one will be, 527 00:30:35,469 --> 00:30:41,659 uh, But, uh, yeah, it's a great, we have some great conferences in Europe, uh, 528 00:30:41,789 --> 00:30:47,549 Madeira and, and, uh, Logano and, uh, Prague and Riga come to mind, uh, the, 529 00:30:47,639 --> 00:30:50,589 all, all, uh, super high signal events. 530 00:30:51,364 --> 00:30:51,894 Exactly. 531 00:30:52,094 --> 00:30:52,244 Yeah. 532 00:30:52,927 --> 00:30:54,067 That's how we want it. 533 00:30:54,832 --> 00:30:58,052 Yeah, we're going to be going to Prague just around the corner here. 534 00:30:58,052 --> 00:31:00,592 This episode will be out just after Prague. 535 00:31:00,632 --> 00:31:04,172 But yeah, any anything special planned there? 536 00:31:04,771 --> 00:31:08,721 yeah, so we'll have a booth, um, yeah, it'll come out after the conference, 537 00:31:08,761 --> 00:31:11,561 but otherwise I'd invite you to come, come hang out and meet us. 538 00:31:12,874 --> 00:31:18,694 but I'm actually gonna have a talk on the main stage, um, about customer support. 539 00:31:18,974 --> 00:31:19,034 Thank you. 540 00:31:20,304 --> 00:31:23,574 And how interesting stories from customer support and how that 541 00:31:23,954 --> 00:31:25,264 shapes our product development. 542 00:31:26,619 --> 00:31:26,939 Yeah. 543 00:31:26,969 --> 00:31:31,469 Um, well, uh, you can, you're going to Riga too, right? 544 00:31:32,297 --> 00:31:33,237 very likely, yes. 545 00:31:33,237 --> 00:31:33,627 Obi and 546 00:31:34,232 --> 00:31:34,652 Yeah. 547 00:31:34,742 --> 00:31:39,012 So, so, so well, everything we say about Prague now, uh, applies

to 548 00:31:39,012 --> 00:31:41,152 Riga too, I guess, or most of it. 549 00:31:41,202 --> 00:31:41,432 Yeah. 550 00:31:42,507 --> 00:31:44,117 Riga, very, very likely. 551 00:31:44,167 --> 00:31:48,027 And then also, uh, Lugano, very, very likely in the fall. 552 00:31:48,502 --> 00:31:53,672 Yeah, our promo code works for Riga too, by the way, uh, the code Freedom, 553 00:31:53,702 --> 00:31:55,642 and maybe it works for Lugano too. 554 00:31:55,642 --> 00:31:59,802 I haven't spoken to those yet, but like, we'll see. 555 00:32:00,672 --> 00:32:06,537 Can you give us a little bit of a preview of your, your, your talk and, uh, Yeah, 556 00:32:06,537 --> 00:32:10,857 maybe a little behind the scenes for those who don't manage to make it to Prague. 557 00:32:12,062 --> 00:32:17,590 yeah, I mean, it's still in progress, but, uh, the general concept is, um, you're in 558 00:32:17,590 --> 00:32:22,910 the space for a while, oftentimes you have trouble seeing the forest for the trees. 559 00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:24,990 Um, so, 560 00:32:25,570 --> 00:32:26,550 For the Merkle trees, 561 00:32:27,390 --> 00:32:35,060 yeah, yeah, or yeah, if you're that deep, yeah, um, and so, you know, 562 00:32:35,060 --> 00:32:39,160 as oftentimes what comes into us in support, uh, can surprise us. 563 00:32:39,779 --> 00:32:42,889 like, oh, we had no idea that this was an issue, that this 564 00:32:42,889 --> 00:32:44,139 was coming, things like that. 565 00:32:44,619 --> 00:32:47,449 And so, maybe go through some interesting stories there. 566 00:32:47,829 --> 00:32:52,029 Also, um, you know, maybe remove a little bit of the stigma, because we're 567 00:32:52,029 --> 00:32:55,539 not aware of anyone actually talking about their own customer support. 568 00:32:55,999 --> 00:33:01,839 Because, you know, people maybe want to hide, um, supports all, like, bad 569 00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:03,369 things and problems and things like that. 570 00:33:03,369 --> 00:33:06,614 So maybe people want to kind of it away, don't know. 571 00:33:07,044 --> 00:33:10,284 And so we thought it would be interesting to kind of put this front and center, 572 00:33:10,354 --> 00:33:14,434 also highlight or emphasize, you know, like, we really care about support. 573 00:33:15,074 --> 00:33:16,484 We have a really great support team. 574 00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:19,914 They get, like, five star reviews, like on Trustpilot and so on. 575 00:33:20,834 --> 00:33:21,844 And so we're proud of that. 576 00:33:22,234 --> 00:33:23,334 And, um, yeah. 577 00:33:24,574 --> 00:33:29,344 I guess, uh, kind of, kind of bring, bring to people's attention that, you 578 00:33:29,344 --> 00:33:34,224 know, customer support's, uh, important, something we take very seriously, and 579 00:33:34,224 --> 00:33:38,344 it can also, uh, help improve your, your product design if you use it as a, 580 00:33:38,854 --> 00:33:40,304 uh, part of your product development. 581 00:33:40,943 --> 00:33:41,823 Yeah, sounds great. 582 00:33:41,823 --> 00:33:45,633 And I mean, again, this is another one of those things that I think, yeah, shows 583 00:33:45,633 --> 00:33:48,323 off why Bitbox is a bit, a bit different. 584 00:33:48,723 --> 00:33:53,823 Now, I've got another, I've got another, um, sort of angle on this, um, that, that 585 00:33:53,853 --> 00:33:58,448 everything we're talking about, we're, we're all Europe, And I think the, the 586 00:33:58,638 --> 00:34:02,998 Bitbox, uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think, I think has a, has a bit of a 587 00:34:03,048 --> 00:34:06,518 more European, um, customer base as well. 588 00:34:07,084 --> 00:34:10,354 what do you, what do you think is sort of the, the difference between kind of the, 589 00:34:10,364 --> 00:34:16,694 the European community and market versus North America, Asia Pacific, uh, all that? 590 00:34:17,244 --> 00:34:18,354 well, we're trying to figure it out. 591 00:34:19,394 --> 00:34:21,744 So yeah, we're, we're, we're doing pretty well in Europe. 592 00:34:22,153 --> 00:34:23,503 quite, quite comfortable in Europe. 593 00:34:23,995 --> 00:34:26,775 trying to figure out ways to, you know, get a little bit awareness 594 00:34:26,815 --> 00:34:30,505 in America, but I think probably one of the big things is distance. 595 00:34:30,575 --> 00:34:34,055 Um, and so it's always, it's harder for us to get to America. 596 00:34:34,215 --> 00:34:37,925 It's farther away, costs more money, budgeting, things like that. 597 00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:43,407 there's a wider, probably a wider, or a lower signal to noise ratio. 598 00:34:43,407 --> 00:34:47,427 Um, and, Um, then a lot of, uh, European content, especially 599 00:34:47,427 --> 00:34:48,947 local language, European content. 600 00:34:49,437 --> 00:34:51,797 So it might be harder to break through that, that noise. 601 00:34:52,857 --> 00:34:56,977 Uh, and I, I think, you know, really to, to really get moving there probably 602 00:34:57,017 --> 00:35:00,877 needs some feet on the ground in America, um, to go and, you know, 603 00:35:00,927 --> 00:35:04,687 talk to people and maybe like a little grassroots campaign, things like that. 604 00:35:05,267 --> 00:35:11,337 Um, I think, you know, from, from the Bitcoiners I see, um, I think 605 00:35:11,337 --> 00:35:12,627 we're kind of all on the same page. 606 00:35:12,989 --> 00:35:15,589 But then it's a question of what is the, the broader market. 607 00:35:15,659 --> 00:35:19,059 So we hear some rumors that in America, you know, maybe there's a bit more 608 00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:21,559 crypto, uh, rather than Bitcoin only. 609 00:35:22,119 --> 00:35:26,009 Uh, I think Europe, uh, especially, uh, what we're aware of, like the 610 00:35:26,019 --> 00:35:30,139 German speaking regions, um, there's a, a bit more understanding of, like, 611 00:35:30,169 --> 00:35:34,359 why, uh, Bitcoin is unique, why it can distinguish itself from other coins. 612 00:35:34,409 --> 00:35:36,809 And I think that spreads through most of

Europe. 613 00:35:37,659 --> 00:35:40,499 Um, and also thanks to the, these wonderful conferences 614 00:35:40,509 --> 00:35:43,219 that you had mentioned before, I think this is a big part too. 615 00:35:43,854 --> 00:35:48,995 And, you know, podcasts like, like you guys also, I think, yeah, some 616 00:35:48,995 --> 00:35:54,623 things in, um, Asia Pacific, yeah, I've visited, uh, a few times, uh, talked 617 00:35:54,623 --> 00:35:59,683 to some local people there, and from what I hear, uh, from them is that, 618 00:36:00,168 --> 00:36:03,138 crypto altcoins really kind of a thing. 619 00:36:03,138 --> 00:36:03,268 Yeah. 620 00:36:04,173 --> 00:36:09,813 Uh, have more of a, more of a dominance over there, and a big reason for that 621 00:36:09,823 --> 00:36:15,513 is, um, uh, from, from what I hear, from what they tell me is that Bitcoin 622 00:36:15,533 --> 00:36:17,283 doesn't have a marketing department. 623 00:36:18,073 --> 00:36:22,803 There's no marketing budget, whereas every other altcoin, including Ethereum, 624 00:36:23,293 --> 00:36:25,903 um, they have marketing, uh, budgets. 625 00:36:26,253 --> 00:36:32,173 Uh, and what happens is a lot of the, the content does get 626 00:36:32,183 --> 00:36:34,453 translated into Asian languages. 627 00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:38,010 thanks to these marketing budgets, but, uh, with Bitcoin, 628 00:36:38,090 --> 00:36:39,810 um, that kind of fell behind. 629 00:36:39,810 --> 00:36:42,440 There's no one pushing it, no money there to do that, so it really 630 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:43,840 has to be individuals doing it. 631 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:49,850 And because of that, you get, um, yeah, an oversaturation of information, 632 00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,485 uh, leaning more towards altcoins. 633 00:36:53,205 --> 00:36:54,245 it makes sense to me. 634 00:36:54,645 --> 00:36:58,965 Uh, and so again, it's going to be an education, uh, kind of issue, uh, just 635 00:36:59,105 --> 00:37:00,905 learning experience kind of issue. 636 00:37:01,265 --> 00:37:02,265 People will learn in time. 637 00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:07,992 you know, I think myself included, I think most people in the space, maybe 638 00:37:07,992 --> 00:37:11,592 not you guys, but most people in the space, when they first get started, uh, 639 00:37:11,592 --> 00:37:13,622 they are tempted to try to find, oh. 640 00:37:14,007 --> 00:37:14,747 Bitcoin's been around. 641 00:37:14,747 --> 00:37:16,297 What's the next best Bitcoin? 642 00:37:16,327 --> 00:37:19,687 What, what's the, Bitcoin must be MySpace, right? 643 00:37:20,187 --> 00:37:23,897 And, uh, this new shiny coin is, uh, Facebook, right? 644 00:37:24,517 --> 00:37:27,027 but you know, it's, it's, it's not a good analogy. 645 00:37:27,307 --> 00:37:29,417 Um, the better analogy is like, uh, 646 00:37:30,168 --> 00:37:37,028 the wheel, the wheel, or the circular shape as being the optimal shape 647 00:37:37,038 --> 00:37:38,738 for constructing a wheel with. 648 00:37:39,058 --> 00:37:43,428 Like, there are triangular shapes and hexagonal wheels, but yeah, 649 00:37:43,488 --> 00:37:45,298 Bitcoin is the circular shape. 650 00:37:45,888 --> 00:37:46,928 Yeah, that's a good one too. 651 00:37:47,608 --> 00:37:50,788 I was thinking like, I think Andres Antonopoulos was talking about 652 00:37:50,788 --> 00:37:55,808 it, how Bitcoin is more like, like internet, base layer of internet. 653 00:37:56,188 --> 00:37:58,168 It's a foundational thing. 654 00:37:58,608 --> 00:38:01,718 That base layer hasn't really changed so much, but things have been built 655 00:38:01,718 --> 00:38:06,628 on top of it to give us this, uh, Yeah, to allow us to do these, um, 656 00:38:07,228 --> 00:38:08,488 podcasts over the internet right now. 657 00:38:09,148 --> 00:38:13,858 and so, uh, yeah, it'll take people some time to figure that out. 658 00:38:14,477 --> 00:38:19,507 Yeah, I love that you keep your cool so much in all of this and just, I just want 659 00:38:19,507 --> 00:38:23,227 to tinker with my little invention here and like, don't worry about the noise. 660 00:38:23,297 --> 00:38:25,507 It will sort itself out sooner or later. 661 00:38:25,507 --> 00:38:29,487 We're more like on the barricades here and trying to like, because like, 662 00:38:29,487 --> 00:38:35,402 don't get me started about this, you know, both in, in And so Asia, both 663 00:38:35,402 --> 00:38:39,602 in Asia and in North America with the, the shit coiners and the shit 664 00:38:39,622 --> 00:38:43,232 coinery and marketing being the thing. 665 00:38:43,412 --> 00:38:48,332 And it's, it's all, you know, you can't have a nothing burger without word salad. 666 00:38:48,462 --> 00:38:55,297 Um, that's basically the, uh, All, all there is, and it annoys me so much, uh, 667 00:38:55,327 --> 00:39:00,817 and it makes me proud to be European because like, this is a more, a higher 668 00:39:00,817 --> 00:39:05,617 signal to noise ratio continent in, in, in terms of Bitcoin adoption, we might 669 00:39:05,617 --> 00:39:13,017 not have favorable politicians and the EU is a, is a bureaucratic cancer that 670 00:39:13,017 --> 00:39:19,062 is, you know, annoying us all, but, uh, But still, the German community, the 671 00:39:19,062 --> 00:39:23,482 Dutch community, the Swiss community, the Czech community, it's all great. 672 00:39:24,752 --> 00:39:29,132 So many people and so many high signal people, it's fantastic. 673 00:39:29,537 --> 00:39:33,657 So I guess you notice it also in North America and Asia, um, 674 00:39:33,937 --> 00:39:35,287 a lower signal to noise ratio. 675 00:39:36,135 --> 00:39:38,255 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely I do. 676 00:39:38,255 --> 00:39:41,395 Especially Uh, yeah, I should name names here. 677 00:39:41,545 --> 00:39:48,165 Uh, . But, uh, but, but that definitely is because I think in, I mean, in Asia 678 00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:49,935 there's a gambling culture, right? 679 00:39:50,115 --> 00:39:53,345 Uh, and in North America there's a

marketing culture. 680 00:39:53,345 --> 00:39:54,485 Like everything is marketing. 681 00:39:55,045 --> 00:39:55,420 Uh, so. 682 00:39:56,470 --> 00:40:00,470 Uh, and I think here we're maybe more grounded, uh, maybe 683 00:40:00,470 --> 00:40:01,890 I'm biased here, but yeah. 684 00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:05,810 Luke, what's your, what's your, uh, general feeling there? 685 00:40:06,066 --> 00:40:10,016 Yeah, I mean, coming from Canada, I think the Canadian community is a 686 00:40:10,016 --> 00:40:12,356 little different from the American one. 687 00:40:12,651 --> 00:40:13,101 a little. 688 00:40:13,331 --> 00:40:17,261 It's, it's super based, uh, in the comparison to the U. 689 00:40:17,261 --> 00:40:17,421 S. 690 00:40:17,551 --> 00:40:20,041 Uh, like, Canadian community is one of the best in the world. 691 00:40:20,216 --> 00:40:20,926 Yeah, totally. 692 00:40:20,926 --> 00:40:24,856 But the thing is, I left Canada before I got connected with the Bitcoin community. 693 00:40:24,856 --> 00:40:28,546 And so it's really been the the American one that that I've had exposure to. 694 00:40:28,546 --> 00:40:32,266 And I think it's the same that That there's, there's just so many, 695 00:40:32,286 --> 00:40:36,296 there's so many things, uh, people are trying to, to find the, the thing 696 00:40:36,296 --> 00:40:41,916 that's going to hit and, um, see, see an opportunity to, to make money. 697 00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:46,486 And, uh, yeah, I mean, comparing it to sort of say that, that one 698 00:40:46,496 --> 00:40:50,126 region of the world has the, the, the situation better or, or not. 699 00:40:50,156 --> 00:40:51,346 I mean, maybe that's unfair. 700 00:40:51,576 --> 00:40:54,286 There's, there's fantastic Bitcoiners all over the world. 701 00:40:54,656 --> 00:41:00,126 And I think it's sort of a case where maybe the local culture influences 702 00:41:00,186 --> 00:41:05,206 the community, the community growth, and local regulations I think 703 00:41:05,206 --> 00:41:10,156 also play a part certainly, right, because that if a country is I 704 00:41:10,871 --> 00:41:15,591 Really unfriendly to, to Bitcoin and really aggressively attacking it. 705 00:41:16,041 --> 00:41:20,641 I mean, I think American Bitcoin culture is extremely political right now. 706 00:41:20,641 --> 00:41:25,411 They're, they're really invested in, in their election, uh, coming up here. 707 00:41:25,411 --> 00:41:29,291 And, uh, maybe that noise just isn't quite so loud, uh, over 708 00:41:29,291 --> 00:41:31,041 here on, on this side of the pond. 709 00:41:31,478 --> 00:41:34,558 no, but this is a, this is a good discussion, I think, uh, uh, kind 710 00:41:34,558 --> 00:41:39,078 of the, the nature of building a, a Bitcoin company, right? 711 00:41:39,338 --> 00:41:42,148 Because, I mean, I think, I think one thing that we've been getting into a 712 00:41:42,148 --> 00:41:45,848 little bit on, on this show is that, is that maybe the, maybe the Bitcoin protocol 713 00:41:45,848 --> 00:41:47,853 itself be really, really, really cool. 714 00:41:48,103 --> 00:41:49,043 cautious with that. 715 00:41:50,253 --> 00:41:54,353 There's a lot of room to build on top of Bitcoin and build things that 716 00:41:54,353 --> 00:41:56,453 make the Bitcoin process easier. 717 00:41:56,453 --> 00:42:01,433 And I mean, my experience with using the Bitbox the first time, I tried to plug it 718 00:42:01,433 --> 00:42:03,803 into basically all of my own workflows. 719 00:42:04,383 --> 00:42:10,513 I'd been using the Sparrow app a lot, just for my own management, creating different 720 00:42:10,513 --> 00:42:12,943 wallets, multisigs and things like that. 721 00:42:13,548 --> 00:42:16,078 Bitbox worked perfectly right out of the box. 722 00:42:16,128 --> 00:42:16,768 I loved it. 723 00:42:16,958 --> 00:42:21,336 I tried the app as well, and I mean, I'm leery personally of kind 724 00:42:21,336 --> 00:42:25,036 of, um, the hardware wallet that has its own app coming from the, 725 00:42:25,036 --> 00:42:30,016 um, uh, well, the aforementioned, uh, company that, that got hacked. 726 00:42:30,036 --> 00:42:32,516 They've, they've, they've got all of their, uh, they send 727 00:42:32,516 --> 00:42:34,386 all your data, uh, back to that 728 00:42:34,721 --> 00:42:36,551 They had it on a ledger, I think. 729 00:42:36,991 --> 00:42:37,801 Yes, exactly. 730 00:42:37,801 --> 00:42:38,621 I have it on a ledger. 731 00:42:38,881 --> 00:42:43,851 Uh, but, but the, uh, the, um, uh, the Bitbox app, it's, it's 732 00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:45,661 also fully open source, right? 733 00:42:45,661 --> 00:42:50,261 And, and it's, it's, uh, uh, you can know exactly what's, what's going on with that. 734 00:42:50,261 --> 00:42:51,541 So that put me at ease. 735 00:42:52,041 --> 00:42:56,681 Um, and, and, so, I mean, I really get the feeling that it's, it's, uh, 736 00:42:57,101 --> 00:43:02,096 um, It's, it's made to be easy to use, but also have the features and 737 00:43:02,096 --> 00:43:05,546 functionality for the So-called Power users who really know what they're doing 738 00:43:05,546 --> 00:43:07,016 and wanna do something a specific way. 739 00:43:07,021 --> 00:43:12,386 So was was that part of the, uh, the idea or like, uh, like, I'm, I'm impressed 740 00:43:12,391 --> 00:43:14,276 by the, the, the flexibility of it. 741 00:43:14,276 --> 00:43:18,296 Like the, the ability that the, the platform that you, you have to be able to 742 00:43:18,296 --> 00:43:20,936 add the things that people are requesting. 743 00:43:21,631 --> 00:43:25,131 There was, there was some, um, script functionality I think we were 744 00:43:25,131 --> 00:43:28,861 talking about on, on Madera that had just been requested by someone 745 00:43:28,861 --> 00:43:29,951 and then it's added like that. 746 00:43:29,981 --> 00:43:30,611 That's impressive. 747 00:43:30,611 --> 00:43:35,241 So yeah, how did, how did that kind of, uh, uh, get developed in 748 00:43:35,241 --> 00:43:36,941 your, your

development philosophy? 749 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,400 yeah, I guess one of the ideas is, um, yeah, we want to want to be 750 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,425 the place for, I guess, We call it the Crypto Curious, um, to kind 751 00:43:46,425 --> 00:43:48,505 of, uh, come and be comfortable. 752 00:43:49,335 --> 00:43:52,365 And part of that is, you know, hiding all these details. 753 00:43:52,425 --> 00:43:54,045 Uh, but they're still there. 754 00:43:54,255 --> 00:43:54,435 Yeah. 755 00:43:54,435 --> 00:43:55,545 We have expert settings. 756 00:43:55,545 --> 00:43:57,555 And so all the expert settings are there. 757 00:43:58,065 --> 00:44:00,405 Coin control can connect your own node. 758 00:44:00,905 --> 00:44:02,615 Um, you're talking about mini script? 759 00:44:02,765 --> 00:44:03,695 Uh, probably. 760 00:44:04,265 --> 00:44:08,435 Uh, and so yeah, we, we have some engineers who've, um, yeah, contributed 761 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,505 to Bitcoin core and so they kind of. 762 00:44:11,851 --> 00:44:15,251 their weekend hobbies will be to implement it because they want it. 763 00:44:17,978 --> 00:44:22,268 that's kind of how, how all the, all these things get stuck in there. 764 00:44:22,368 --> 00:44:23,818 Of course, we do listen to users. 765 00:44:23,818 --> 00:44:27,410 And so, we do want the Bitbox to be not only like your, your 766 00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:28,860 starter, but it can grow with you. 767 00:44:28,860 --> 00:44:29,790 It can educate you. 768 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,900 We have like in app, in our app itself, we have in app guide. 769 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000 contextual guides to kind of show you about different 770 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,300 functions and teach you things. 771 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,480 Uh, we spend a lot of time with blogs and our knowledge base to educate people. 772 00:44:42,003 --> 00:44:46,133 and so we're, we're happy to also kind of, you know, grow, grow 773 00:44:46,133 --> 00:44:49,343 together, grow with you, help you, help you on your, your path. 774 00:44:49,443 --> 00:44:53,403 And that means, uh, being exposed to some of these more advanced, uh, 775 00:44:53,973 --> 00:44:57,433 uh, features that, you know, can be, can be important in different times. 776 00:44:58,448 --> 00:45:00,708 And how does that relate to also the security? 777 00:45:00,708 --> 00:45:06,028 Because none of these features on top of that compromise the core 778 00:45:06,028 --> 00:45:08,008 security of the wallet, right? 779 00:45:08,603 --> 00:45:08,873 Yeah. 780 00:45:09,173 --> 00:45:13,873 So, um, when it comes to security, we try to, we try to implement it. 781 00:45:14,513 --> 00:45:19,713 Uh, under the hood, I would say, and so I had mentioned this, um, uh, anticlepto, 782 00:45:19,823 --> 00:45:25,106 uh, thing before, um, and so that's really all under the hood and it's, um, it's 783 00:45:25,106 --> 00:45:30,176 basically, yeah, we also kind of have, um, yeah, security in depth kind of field, 784

00:45:30,656 --> 00:45:35,696 uh, where part of our philosophy is, um, try to minimize the amount of trust you 785 00:45:35,696 --> 00:45:42,756 need to be, you need to put into any one aspect of Of course, if you buy hardware, 786 00:45:42,966 --> 00:45:46,476 there's always gonna be some level of trust, but, you know, open source, uh, 787 00:45:46,556 --> 00:45:48,266 so we can have some accountability. 788 00:45:48,396 --> 00:45:51,586 So if something does happen, you can trace it back to where it did happen. 789 00:45:52,204 --> 00:45:56,194 and, uh, you know, community, uh, we have a bug bounty program, so 790 00:45:56,194 --> 00:45:59,244 people are welcome to go and hack the code and try to find, uh, 791 00:45:59,294 --> 00:46:01,144 issues, which we very much welcome. 792 00:46:01,807 --> 00:46:06,777 yeah, the anti klepto part is actually, um, if you don't trust 793 00:46:06,777 --> 00:46:07,987 the hardware wallet itself. 794 00:46:08,264 --> 00:46:14,234 and so, uh, for example, So, uh, when you do cryptographic signatures, like really, 795 00:46:14,234 --> 00:46:16,604 really important aspect is randomness. 796 00:46:16,954 --> 00:46:17,744 It's called entropy. 797 00:46:17,984 --> 00:46:21,634 Um, and so it's not only when you first create your wallet, 798 00:46:21,634 --> 00:46:23,304 it's also when you do signatures. 799 00:46:24,274 --> 00:46:28,512 And so, um, there's a way to do it deterministically that works really well. 800 00:46:28,772 --> 00:46:32,002 Um, but if you don't trust that that's happening in the hardware wallet, 801 00:46:32,032 --> 00:46:35,762 you can supply external entropy, external randomness, in addition, 802 00:46:36,222 --> 00:46:39,392 in a really clever way that's provable that it was actually used. 803 00:46:39,867 --> 00:46:46,177 Um, in the signature, and so, um, we have the, our app itself, 804 00:46:46,367 --> 00:46:50,597 um, also does some sanity checks on the hardware wallet itself. 805 00:46:51,097 --> 00:46:55,667 Uh, so in this aspect with respect to signatures, in another aspect where we 806 00:46:55,667 --> 00:47:00,097 have, um, what we call an attestation key, which is basically, um, a secret loaded in 807 00:47:00,097 --> 00:47:06,277 the secure element that, um, can detect if there's a counterfeit device, and so the 808 00:47:06,287 --> 00:47:11,477 app will send a challenge, It should get the right, um, response back using this, 809 00:47:11,507 --> 00:47:15,757 uh, private key in the secure element, uh, in order to detect counterfeit devices. 810 00:47:15,757 --> 00:47:17,807 And so, yeah, we do a lot of these things. 811 00:47:17,997 --> 00:47:21,107 Um, if you're a user, you don't have to worry about all of it. 812 00:47:21,227 --> 00:47:24,977 Just, you know, if a warning pops up, read it, um, basically. 813 00:47:25,613 --> 00:47:29,693 and then a lot of the, like, the optional features, the expert features, 814 00:47:29,723 --> 00:47:34,313 I would say those are probably more related to privacy, uh, than security. 815 00:47:34,923 --> 00:47:39,053 Um, and so coin control, for example, you can choose which coins to, uh, 816 00:47:39,133 --> 00:47:44,303 spend from so that you don't mix coins together for, uh, tracking on 817 00:47:44,303 --> 00:47:45,833 chain analysis, things like that. 818 00:47:46,883 --> 00:47:49,253 You can connect your own full nodes, so you can be confident that 819 00:47:49,903 --> 00:47:54,873 no one else is peeping in on your transactions, and so on and so on. 820 00:47:55,003 --> 00:47:55,043 I 821 00:47:56,078 --> 00:47:56,618 that's great. 822 00:47:56,688 --> 00:48:00,868 I remember back in the day when, when paper wallets was sort of still a thing. 823 00:48:01,058 --> 00:48:05,048 I, I don't, I don't hear anyone using paper wallets anymore, but there 824 00:48:05,048 --> 00:48:09,298 were these websites where you could create your own, um, paper wallets. 825 00:48:09,318 --> 00:48:14,638 And the thing you did was you went offline and then just moved your mouse and that 826 00:48:14,698 --> 00:48:17,660 added the entropy, Uh, it's pretty cool. 827 00:48:17,660 --> 00:48:19,690 Uh, yeah. 828 00:48:19,710 --> 00:48:22,850 I wonder if those are ever coming back as a, as a thing. 829 00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:28,752 don't think so, basically because with a paper wallet, you think it's on a piece 830 00:48:28,752 --> 00:48:32,852 of paper, so it's offline, but the problem comes when you want to spend your coins. 831 00:48:34,672 --> 00:48:38,862 So there's, as far as I understand, there's really no way to manually 832 00:48:39,262 --> 00:48:42,852 sign a transaction because it's so complicated, so computationally intensive. 833 00:48:43,432 --> 00:48:45,602 Uh, and so you need some kind of tool to do that. 834 00:48:45,912 --> 00:48:48,382 And so if you have a paper wallet and you want to spend those coins, you 835 00:48:48,382 --> 00:48:53,182 need to load up your secret into some type of device in order to spend it. 836 00:48:53,752 --> 00:48:55,002 You need to swipe it. 837 00:48:55,072 --> 00:48:56,342 It's the terminology, 838 00:48:56,432 --> 00:48:57,192 you need to swipe it. 839 00:48:57,192 --> 00:49:00,142 And so if you're using a computer or a phone, it's going to be on your computer 840 00:49:00,142 --> 00:49:01,922 and phone, uh, after you swipe it. 841 00:49:02,042 --> 00:49:04,262 So, that kind of defeats the whole purpose. 842 00:49:05,327 --> 00:49:08,707 Of course, you minimize the time it's exposed, but, you know, malware is 843 00:49:08,707 --> 00:49:11,807 getting smarter and smarter if it detects it, it's going to take it. 844 00:49:13,197 --> 00:49:16,247 And so you still, you need a harder wallet to spend it. 845 00:49:16,652 --> 00:49:22,492 I'll, I'll have to see if there I have any paper wallets left in a drawer somewhere. 846 00:49:23,282 --> 00:49:26,582 Yeah, so the security discussion is fantastic. 847 00:49:26,582 --> 00:49:31,712 I mean, device security is such a

difficult area these days. 848 00:49:31,732 --> 00:49:35,382 As you say, the adversaries are getting more and more sophisticated. 849 00:49:35,382 --> 00:49:37,082 And when we're talking about money, Bitcoin. 850 00:49:37,862 --> 00:49:41,682 Uh, yeah, it's just an incentive to just take whatever is possible. 851 00:49:41,682 --> 00:49:47,112 So yeah, keeping, keeping the, uh, so called keys separate from 852 00:49:47,112 --> 00:49:50,472 the, the, um, from the computer. 853 00:49:50,512 --> 00:49:51,832 Very, very important. 854 00:49:52,162 --> 00:49:55,732 And maybe this is sort of a philosophical question, sort of in 855 00:49:55,732 --> 00:49:58,812 the hardware wallet space or idea. 856 00:49:59,252 --> 00:50:01,132 What do you think of the term hardware wallet? 857 00:50:01,612 --> 00:50:05,632 Should we be using a different term, such as signing device or 858 00:50:05,652 --> 00:50:07,262 keychain or something like that? 859 00:50:07,775 --> 00:50:09,705 yeah, semantic question. 860 00:50:10,975 --> 00:50:11,475 Harder wallet. 861 00:50:11,505 --> 00:50:15,725 I know a lot of people are calling it cold wallet now as opposed to hot wallet, 862 00:50:15,725 --> 00:50:18,045 which I think kind of makes sense. 863 00:50:19,375 --> 00:50:22,445 But yeah, the term wallet itself. 864 00:50:23,390 --> 00:50:28,400 Yeah, it's a misnomer, of course, um, you know, talking about 865 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,870 customer support questions. 866 00:50:29,930 --> 00:50:34,300 Um, a lot of it comes around this, the, the term wallet, where 867 00:50:34,300 --> 00:50:37,620 people are saying, oh, they assume their bitcoins are in the wallet. 868 00:50:38,030 --> 00:50:40,550 You know, we have this micro SD card for backups. 869 00:50:40,590 --> 00:50:43,050 They think every time they make a transaction, they need to stick the 870 00:50:43,060 --> 00:50:46,140 micro SD card in in order to backup the transaction, but you don't. 871 00:50:46,929 --> 00:50:51,584 and they think, yeah, for example, If they're receiving coins, they need to 872 00:50:51,584 --> 00:50:55,274 keep the hardware wallet plugged in until the coin, the transaction is confirmed 873 00:50:55,274 --> 00:50:58,974 because otherwise it's not going to get into the hardware wallet, into their 874 00:50:58,974 --> 00:51:01,874 wallet, and so that's not true also. 875 00:51:02,174 --> 00:51:07,204 So there's all these misconceptions around it that probably could be solved with a 876 00:51:08,324 --> 00:51:13,854 different name like, yeah, a keychain, because it's basically a chain of keys 877 00:51:13,854 --> 00:51:15,314 that give you access to the coins. 878 00:51:15,849 --> 00:51:20,279 Whereas the coins themselves are stored publicly on the blockchain, 879 00:51:20,339 --> 00:51:23,369 and your wallet, if it's a hardware wallet or software wallet, is 880 00:51:23,369 --> 00:51:25,639 just there to access those coins. 881 00:51:26,109 --> 00:51:29,539 Use the private key, so on your keychain,

and unlock it so you 882 00:51:29,539 --> 00:51:30,549 can send it somewhere else. 883 00:51:31,019 --> 00:51:34,429 So yeah, maybe that would save our support staff some time. 884 00:51:36,174 --> 00:51:36,474 Yeah. 885 00:51:36,774 --> 00:51:40,434 Speaking of support, like, uh, yeah, I just remembered where I put all my 886 00:51:40,484 --> 00:51:45,364 paper wallets and they, they were on the boat that sank, uh, fortunately, 887 00:51:45,604 --> 00:51:51,144 but, but say if you had a paper wallet and you wanted to swipe it, uh, using 888 00:51:51,144 --> 00:51:53,494 the bit box, how would you go about it? 889 00:51:53,554 --> 00:51:54,854 Would you use Electrum? 890 00:51:54,854 --> 00:51:58,794 Would you use like the, your app or how would you do that? 891 00:51:58,854 --> 00:51:59,374 Like this is a. 892 00:52:01,009 --> 00:52:05,269 Pretend I'm a customer support customer here. 893 00:52:06,039 --> 00:52:10,339 Yeah, um, I used to do customer support, I don't do it anymore. 894 00:52:11,919 --> 00:52:15,290 But, um, the Bitbox app does not support sweeping. 895 00:52:16,225 --> 00:52:17,635 I'm at the moment, at least. 896 00:52:18,485 --> 00:52:22,185 So you'd have to use some third party app if it's Electrum or Sparrow or whatever. 897 00:52:22,625 --> 00:52:27,105 Um, and then what we would always recommend is, uh, once you sweep into 898 00:52:27,105 --> 00:52:32,855 that wallet, always to immediately send those coins to a hardware wallet because 899 00:52:32,885 --> 00:52:36,220 the The private key you swept is now hot. 900 00:52:36,770 --> 00:52:39,210 Consider it radioactive. 901 00:52:40,106 --> 00:52:42,296 Well, that sounds easy enough. 902 00:52:43,826 --> 00:52:48,436 Is there anything else we haven't talked about, Douglas or Luke? 903 00:52:48,506 --> 00:52:50,486 Like, is there anything else you want to bring up? 904 00:52:52,091 --> 00:52:57,701 I think we've covered quite a bit here, uh, so, uh, yeah, uh, Douglas, where, 905 00:52:57,951 --> 00:53:00,021 where can we direct our listeners to? 906 00:53:00,021 --> 00:53:04,881 I guess to the, to Bitbox, of course, and, uh, uh, everything 907 00:53:04,881 --> 00:53:08,211 there, but, uh, is there anywhere else you want to send our listeners? 908 00:53:08,769 --> 00:53:11,839 yeah, so, I mean, if you're interested in hearing more, um, 909 00:53:11,939 --> 00:53:12,899 we're happy to hear from you. 910 00:53:12,899 --> 00:53:15,199 If you have any feedback, if you want to read more, you can 911 00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:16,369 come to our website, bitbox. 912 00:53:16,899 --> 00:53:17,519 swiss. 913 00:53:18,001 --> 00:53:20,101 and you can find a bunch of links to our social media. 914 00:53:20,171 --> 00:53:24,071 So, we're on Twitter, we're on LinkedIn, Telegram channel. 915 00:53:24,642 --> 00:53:26,242 and we're happy, happy to hear from you. 916 00:53:27,162 --> 00:53:28,802 And of course, use bitbox. 917 00:53:28,802 --> 00:53:32,872 swiss slash freedom or use code freedom for a 5 percent discount. 918 00:53:33,022 --> 00:53:34,082 Absolutely. 919 00:53:35,132 --> 00:53:39,652 Well, yeah, Douglas, uh, any, any last, anything else you want, want to mention, 920 00:53:39,652 --> 00:53:41,582 I'll just reiterate that, um, from Knut. 921 00:53:42,093 --> 00:53:44,863 no, I think, um, it's been fun talking to you guys. 922 00:53:44,883 --> 00:53:48,313 So, really appreciate, um, You're having me on. 923 00:53:48,423 --> 00:53:50,683 I appreciate the hard work you guys are doing. 924 00:53:50,703 --> 00:53:56,666 Keep it up and best wishes for everyone's financial sovereignty, I guess. 925 00:53:57,514 --> 00:53:58,234 Fantastic. 926 00:53:58,254 --> 00:54:03,514 Well, thank you so much for, for joining us, uh, for making this fantastic 927 00:54:03,514 --> 00:54:08,094 product, uh, yeah, making people's lives easier in securing their Bitcoin. 928 00:54:08,144 --> 00:54:09,784 So that's fantastic. 929 00:54:09,784 --> 00:54:12,824 So looking forward to seeing you again, it's after this episode is out, but 930 00:54:12,824 --> 00:54:16,624 looking forward to seeing you and, uh, Uh, not even really, I guess a couple of 931 00:54:16,624 --> 00:54:18,754 weeks here in, or a week, a week even in 932 00:54:19,144 --> 00:54:19,604 A week. 933 00:54:19,604 --> 00:54:19,984 Yeah. 934 00:54:20,234 --> 00:54:20,864 Fantastic. 935 00:54:21,164 --> 00:54:21,874 time flies. 936 00:54:22,114 --> 00:54:22,654 Time flies. 937 00:54:23,044 --> 00:54:23,994 Or time fries. 938 00:54:24,284 --> 00:54:24,524 Yeah. 939 00:54:24,834 --> 00:54:25,754 Any last words, Knut? 940 00:54:26,874 --> 00:54:27,804 Any last words? 941 00:54:28,004 --> 00:54:28,334 Yes. 942 00:54:28,554 --> 00:54:29,424 Spadoinkle. 943 00:54:30,564 --> 00:54:31,904 This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. 944 00:54:31,914 --> 00:54:32,814 Thanks for listening.

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