บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Rehypothecation Is Cryptographically Impossible — Martin Matejka, Firefish CEO

going to break all that down. But you'd mentioned being sort of a trader, energy and gas and different things. What's that world actually like? And what did it teach you about risk that ended up shaping how you built Firefish? 55 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:41,560 This place is pretty cool. I mean, like institutional trading is a great environment full of people that understand nonlinear outcomes of your decisions. 56 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:49,100 Well, we've been trading energy assets across the Europe, across the globe, mostly across the Europe. 57 00:05:49,780 --> 00:05:57,160 The market is pretty effective. Like you can move around electricity across the Europe and it's fun. 58 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:04,760 When it comes to risk, you realize that it really matters how the settlement, for example, works. 59 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:16,280 Like you would never do a large transaction with random people on the Internet unless you or somewhere, unless there is a mechanism that allows this transaction to be secure. 60 00:06:16,780 --> 00:06:17,900 For example, exchange. 61 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:25,680 right so we've been thinking bitcoin back landing might be you know in a position where a lot of 62 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,840 people interact in between each other they don't have a mutual trust they don't want to trust each 63 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:37,940 other so how to create an infrastructure that allows for them to transact without embedded risk 64 00:06:37,940 --> 00:06:44,700 so there are a lot of parallels between institutional or energy trading and bitcoin finance 65 00:06:45,380 --> 00:06:49,720 So kind of thinking about maybe your background in markets and physical commodity, margin, 66 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:53,520 collateralized price daily, that world has so much discipline. 67 00:06:53,820 --> 00:06:56,420 When did Bitcoin actually pull you in personally? 68 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:57,1000 How'd you fall down the rabbit hole? 69 00:06:58,660 --> 00:07:02,660 Actually, first time I heard about Bitcoin, it was very early on. 70 00:07:02,660 --> 00:07:04,460 It was like 2011. 71 00:07:05,060 --> 00:07:09,200 I'm lucky enough that one of my friends have been really early in Bitcoin scene. 72 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:13,340 And actually, the time I didn't pay so much of the attention. 73 00:07:13,340 --> 00:07:16,180 I was checking out a few articles. 74 00:07:17,220 --> 00:07:20,900 I've seen that it's some kind of magic internet money. 75 00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:22,380 It sounds catchy. 76 00:07:23,140 --> 00:07:24,900 And I didn't pay so much attention. 77 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:27,740 I started to pay attention much, much later. 78 00:07:28,020 --> 00:07:29,700 It was actually a course era. 79 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:37,640 Like there is this platform for online teaching where I enrolled for a course. 80 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:44,120 it was called like Bitcoin and the cryptocurrencies from, I believe, from Berkeley or some US 81 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:52,120 university at the time. I spent a couple of hours listening to that, to the series. I really had this 82 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:59,400 aha moment when I realized this thing is going to be big. I mean, the time I was quite interested 83 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:07,320 in Austrian economics and, you know, like being a gold bug and free banking and all these. When I 84 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,240 When I discovered Bitcoin, it just fit in. 85 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,300 It was like a piece of puzzle that was missing. 86 00:08:13,300 --> 00:08:26,276 Now we have a piece of technology that we can use to be protected from the monetary inflation that we all knew is a huge problem pretty much everywhere in the world 87 00:08:26,276 --> 00:08:31,616 So it was a big thing for me to finally understand Bitcoin. 88 00:08:31,616 --> 00:08:37,156 And for me, it really mattered that I understood the technical foundations. 89 00:08:37,156 --> 00:08:43,396 So I started with a basic cryptography that was pretty much a Chinese to me at that time. 90 00:08:43,816 --> 00:08:51,796 But once I understood how the thing works, I kind of early realized that this is going to change the world. 91 00:08:52,096 --> 00:08:53,096 And I still believe that. 92 00:08:53,956 --> 00:08:54,936 Yeah, I agree. 93 00:08:55,896 --> 00:09:01,896 Maybe for someone who's never really thought about this, what is a Bitcoin-backed loan? 94 00:09:02,716 --> 00:09:05,656 And what does it actually look like from the borrower's seat? 95 00:09:05,656 --> 00:09:08,756 I'm thinking what's the best way to put it. 96 00:09:08,996 --> 00:09:20,976 And for me personally, the Bitcoin back loan is a way how you can access the value that is accumulated in the best asset you have on your own balance sheet. 97 00:09:21,136 --> 00:09:22,976 You might own a couple of assets. 98 00:09:23,236 --> 00:09:26,156 I believe the best asset I personally own is Bitcoin. 99 00:09:26,536 --> 00:09:29,696 I don't want to take part with that asset. 100 00:09:29,696 --> 00:09:37,576 I don't want to sell it out when the time comes where I need to go for investment or pay my kids education or whatnot. 101 00:09:38,236 --> 00:09:44,416 I think there is a better way and is borrow and use the asset as a collateral. 102 00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:48,116 This is what institutions do on the daily basis. 103 00:09:48,316 --> 00:09:53,916 They don't sell their equity, for example, to go for to scale up their production or something. 104 00:09:54,116 --> 00:09:55,576 They borrow against it. 105 00:09:55,576 --> 00:10:00,616 I think now this technique is available to pretty much everybody that holds Bitcoin. 106 00:10:01,376 --> 00:10:06,136 There's a frame that I love that I think describes what Bitcoiners are actually doing when they take one of these loans. 107 00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:09,576 They're like shorting fiat and going long like digital property. 108 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:12,736 They're not borrowing money to

spend. 109 00:10:12,896 --> 00:10:15,896 They're using fiat as a tool to keep more of the asset that's appreciating. 110 00:10:16,096 --> 00:10:17,476 Is that sort of how you see it? 111 00:10:18,156 --> 00:10:18,856 I love it. 112 00:10:18,856 --> 00:10:22,436 This is exactly, I think, how it works. 113 00:10:22,436 --> 00:10:26,336 And it's also highlighting one of the key properties of loan. 114 00:10:27,016 --> 00:10:30,896 And it got this component of shorting the fiat currency. 115 00:10:31,656 --> 00:10:37,496 Honestly, there are two big investment theses I hold in my life at this moment. 116 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:39,536 One is Bitcoin will win. 117 00:10:40,356 --> 00:10:43,376 And second is fiat is going to decompose. 118 00:10:44,136 --> 00:10:47,936 And expression of the first is actually owning some Bitcoin. 119 00:10:48,036 --> 00:10:50,536 I think that's a good strategy for pretty much everybody. 120 00:10:51,236 --> 00:10:56,416 Another one is shorting the fiat, having a loan against the fiat currency. 121 00:10:56,416 --> 00:11:01,816 Because if you borrow $100 now, it's not $100 in 10 years. 122 00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:10,416 Like I might ask, what do you think is the probability that $100 will buy you the same amount of goods now as in 10 years? 123 00:11:10,576 --> 00:11:13,896 I think that I would bet my gut that it's minimal. 124 00:11:14,036 --> 00:11:16,196 Like it's pretty much close to zero. 125 00:11:16,196 --> 00:11:21,576 So taking a loan might be actually a good financial decision. 126 00:11:21,876 --> 00:11:26,056 You end up paying much less expressed by purchasing power than you get. 127 00:11:26,516 --> 00:11:30,156 So holding a Bitcoin and taking a loan against it, 128 00:11:30,296 --> 00:11:34,976 I think it's expressing both of these investment theses at the same time. 129 00:11:35,396 --> 00:11:36,996 Yeah, it's a really interesting way to see it. 130 00:11:37,136 --> 00:11:40,316 A lot of Bitcoiners will ask when they're considering a loan for the first time, 131 00:11:40,936 --> 00:11:43,836 why are interest rates on Bitcoin-backed loans what they are? 132 00:11:43,836 --> 00:11:48,776 sort of higher than maybe what a 30-year mortgage would go for in the United States 133 00:11:48,776 --> 00:11:50,656 and like lower than a credit card. 134 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:56,556 How does sort of the math work and what has Firefish's sort of rates been historically 135 00:11:56,556 --> 00:11:57,676 or maybe now? 136 00:11:58,036 --> 00:12:02,736 I think the rates are just too high and they're unreasonably high at this moment. 137 00:12:02,736 --> 00:12:09,036 Taking into account the underlying asset, it's a collateralized loan backed by value 138 00:12:09,036 --> 00:12:12,196 that is at all times bigger than the loan itself. 139 00:12:12,196 --> 00:12:15,276 So I think the fair value should be much lower. 140 00:12:16,236 --> 00:12:21,156 Saying that at the same time, the rates are dropping quite significantly. 141 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:27,276 Like if you just check our marketplace, because Firefish is an open marketplace. 142 00:12:27,276 --> 00:12:33,316 We are not a typical lender that sets the loan terms and sells the product. 143 00:12:33,676 --> 00:12:36,916 Instead, we just connect borrowers with the lenders. 144 00:12:37,156 --> 00:12:40,796 As simple as it sounds, it's also simple in a production. 145 00:12:40,796 --> 00:12:44,916 Over the last year, we have seen a significant drop in interest rates. 146 00:12:45,276 --> 00:12:50,216 It means that borrowers, I mean, lenders, investors to the loans 147 00:12:50,216 --> 00:12:57,056 are kind of waking up to this opportunity that I see as a pretty much 148 00:12:57,056 --> 00:12:59,696 window of opportunity that is closing down over time. 149 00:13:00,576 --> 00:13:05,636 Sooner or later, and we see that coming, institutions are waking up to the same thing. 150 00:13:05,636 --> 00:13:13,716 they see the asset class, Bitcoin back loans, with interest rates much higher than similar assets, 151 00:13:13,716 --> 00:13:20,916 for example, loans backed by real estate, such as mortgages. So my personal prediction is that 152 00:13:20,916 --> 00:13:27,956 this is like temporary inefficiency that we see at the market. I think at this moment, 153 00:13:27,956 --> 00:13:32,276 the rates are starting to be like they're single digit, they are starting to be much 154 00:13:32,276 --> 00:13:40,116 more reasonable than like a year or two ago. And I would bet that the rates would trend to go down 155 00:13:40,116 --> 00:13:46,756 over time. That's good to see. And it makes sense. What happens if Bitcoin price drops while I have 156 00:13:46,756 --> 00:13:55,156 a loan that's active? Yeah, I think this is one of the key things to understand. There is liquidation 157 00:13:55,156 --> 00:14:01,716 risk embedded in a Bitcoin back loan. That means that if the collateral value doesn't cover the 158 00:14:01,716 --> 00:14:07,796 loan notional, the collateral is going to be liquidated. That means that you might lose your 159 00:14:07,796 --> 00:14:14,196 Bitcoin at some point. That's why we think one should really understand that this tool is very 160 00:14:14,196 --> 00:14:21,316 powerful. But if you don't use it in the right way, it might be also something that might hurt you. 161 00:14:21,316 --> 00:14:26,996 So I think the Bitcoin banks loans are really strong tool for your personal freedom. And I think 162 00:14:26,996 --> 00:14:30,596 it should be in a toolkit of pretty much everybody. 163 00:14:31,096 --> 00:14:34,016 At the same time, you should understand the downsides. 164 00:14:34,736 --> 00:14:38,756 And that's why we actually force 50% LTV. 165 00:14:38,756 --> 00:14:43,116 That means that whenever you take a $100 loan, 166 00:14:43,376 --> 00:14:46,816 you need to deposit twice as much collateral at inception. 167 00:14:47,116 --> 00:14:51,396 So it's lowering the probability that you would get liquidated. 168

00:14:51,496 --> 00:14:54,876 At the same time, you might top up the collateral anytime. 169 00:14:54,876 --> 00:15:06,796 That means that whenever the price is going the direction that it's close to your liquidation level, you get a warning and you might just simply top up your collateral. 170 00:15:07,896 --> 00:15:12,376 I will personally not use all my Bitcoin savings for a loan. 171 00:15:12,936 --> 00:15:15,096 It's rather be on the safe side. 172 00:15:15,436 --> 00:15:20,356 But I think for a reasonable part of it, it's very useful too. 173 00:15:20,936 --> 00:15:22,236 Yeah, no, I appreciate that. 174 00:15:22,236 --> 00:15:26,536 Can Bitcoin on the Firefish platform be re-hypothecated? 175 00:15:27,636 --> 00:15:28,996 There is no way. 176 00:15:29,936 --> 00:15:33,736 Unless somebody hacks very basic Bitcoin primitives, 177 00:15:33,976 --> 00:15:38,636 like the enforcement, the fact that Bitcoin stays at the address 178 00:15:38,636 --> 00:15:40,616 is enforced by the Bitcoin network. 179 00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:44,436 We use the primitives that the Bitcoin network already understands, 180 00:15:44,676 --> 00:15:49,136 such as multisig, partially signed Bitcoin transactions, and time locks. 181 00:15:49,136 --> 00:15:59,876 These are the components that build our escrow system that doesn't allow us or anybody else to move collateral outside of the predefined spending parts. 182 00:16:00,556 --> 00:16:03,856 And those are predefined in a very simple way. 183 00:16:04,756 --> 00:16:15,876 And that means that Bitcoin can, from this particular address, it might end up only being written to you, to your predefined address, back to the borrower or to the liquidation address. 184 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:21,876 And our role as a platform is pretty much only to choose one of those two directions. 185 00:16:21,876 --> 00:16:22,876 All right. 186 00:16:22,876 --> 00:16:26,876 Then what happens on chain when the loan is created? 187 00:16:26,876 --> 00:16:31,876 Like what moves, what doesn't, what side and who holds which key? 188 00:16:31,876 --> 00:16:48,112 I think this is quite interesting but a little bit technical What we actually do what our users do and most probably many of them do not have any idea but what they do they run our open source Bitcoin library inside of their browser 189 00:16:48,112 --> 00:16:51,092 that creates all the Bitcoin logic behind. 190 00:16:51,332 --> 00:16:54,772 So borrowers are creating this escrow address themselves. 191 00:16:55,172 --> 00:16:57,652 Like it's not being pushed by us. 192 00:16:57,652 --> 00:17:03,312 We think it's much more safe if users can verify the code that they are running. 193 00:17:03,512 --> 00:17:09,552 At the same time, this is not recognizable even for the average users, if you are not too technical. 194 00:17:09,792 --> 00:17:17,132 And the process is as simple as sending Bitcoin to a specific address that is generated inside of your browser within the Firefish app. 195 00:17:17,292 --> 00:17:26,672 The address represents three of three multisig address and a bunch of partially signed Bitcoin transactions are attached to that. 196 00:17:26,672 --> 00:17:35,392 One of the key is borrower's ephemeral key that is used only during this escrow creation ceremony. 197 00:17:36,412 --> 00:17:44,592 That kind of assures that only spending parts that are approved by the borrower are valid. 198 00:17:45,632 --> 00:17:55,312 And borrower pretty much approves spending conditions that correspond with the states in which the loan can happen to be. 199 00:17:55,312 --> 00:18:06,472 Be it full repayment, that means that if you repay the loan, partially send Bitcoin transactions, transaction like routes the Bitcoin back to your own address. 200 00:18:06,772 --> 00:18:13,912 If your loan happened to be defaulted, then the Bitcoin is rooted to the liquidation address. 201 00:18:14,652 --> 00:18:16,772 And there is one more cool thing. 202 00:18:17,072 --> 00:18:21,172 One of these transactions is actually signed by everybody. 203 00:18:21,172 --> 00:18:23,912 So all the signatures and it's valid. 204 00:18:23,912 --> 00:18:27,672 It just have a time lock on it. 205 00:18:28,032 --> 00:18:33,932 That means that even if Firefish doesn't operate in the future, 206 00:18:34,252 --> 00:18:36,412 if we go belly up or whatever, 207 00:18:36,812 --> 00:18:41,572 you still have a valid Bitcoin transaction that you can verify up front 208 00:18:41,572 --> 00:18:45,532 that allows you to spend the Bitcoin back to your own address, 209 00:18:45,732 --> 00:18:49,212 your hardware wallet or whatnot after the time lock is passed. 210 00:18:49,212 --> 00:18:49,692 Wow. 211 00:18:49,692 --> 00:18:55,792 Wow. This definitely seems like the architecture or real Bitcoin would want to use to get a Bitcoin-backed loan. 212 00:18:56,312 --> 00:19:00,512 Has there been any sort of major events on the platform that has sort of tested users? 213 00:19:00,852 --> 00:19:04,232 Maybe in February when price was dropping rapidly? 214 00:19:04,872 --> 00:19:07,732 What was sort of maybe any events like that like? 215 00:19:08,332 --> 00:19:13,632 That was the only day, actually, in our lifetime that we experienced liquidation events. 216 00:19:13,632 --> 00:19:19,552 that means that some part of our users haven't been able to top up the collateral to the extent 217 00:19:19,552 --> 00:19:26,992 that would cover the loan emotional and they have been liquidated. It actually due to our like 218 00:19:26,992 --> 00:19:33,872 conservative loan origination policies such as 50% LTV, it affected very small fraction of our 219 00:19:33,872 --> 00:19:41,632 user base. It affected like 2% of the active loans and everything went smoothly. I mean like 220 00:19:41,632 --> 00:19:49,992 The protocol works in a way that the logic is enforced by the protocol itself to the most possible extent. 221 00:19:50,212 --> 00:19:55,572 So pretty much it doesn't rely so much on other

aspects, such a legal enforcement. 222 00:19:56,092 --> 00:20:00,272 So all the originations happened as it was designed. 223 00:20:00,932 --> 00:20:08,072 Only 1.7%, I think, loans even triggered margin calls, which is a really small number. 224 00:20:08,772 --> 00:20:13,352 Yeah, I mean, it just must have been interesting to kind of go through that event, 225 00:20:13,452 --> 00:20:18,472 really stress test the system and see that come out so smoothly from all of that. 226 00:20:19,052 --> 00:20:25,192 And I kind of wanted to talk about what you guys created with the LSEG workspace integration. 227 00:20:26,192 --> 00:20:27,712 And kind of what is that? 228 00:20:27,992 --> 00:20:28,952 Who's using it? 229 00:20:29,292 --> 00:20:31,272 And how does that sort of affect the marketplace? 230 00:20:31,572 --> 00:20:34,132 The workspace, when I started my trading carry, 231 00:20:34,132 --> 00:20:38,332 you pretty much had two options to use like the financial infrastructure, 232 00:20:38,532 --> 00:20:40,292 like financial information infrastructure. 233 00:20:40,612 --> 00:20:43,372 That time it was Bloomberg or the Reuters. 234 00:20:44,012 --> 00:20:48,192 Now like Reuters rebranded to London Stock Exchange Terminal 235 00:20:48,192 --> 00:20:50,372 and this is pretty much the thing. 236 00:20:50,512 --> 00:20:52,952 So now the data from our marketplace, 237 00:20:52,952 --> 00:20:55,612 from the Bitcoin back lending live data 238 00:20:55,612 --> 00:20:59,472 are available to all the financial professionals around the world 239 00:20:59,472 --> 00:21:01,432 that actually use the platform. 240 00:21:01,432 --> 00:21:08,352 So we see ourselves as a place where demand and the supply meets for the Bitcoin-backed loans. 241 00:21:08,632 --> 00:21:15,892 And we publish live data for financial professionals to take their decisions. 242 00:21:16,712 --> 00:21:16,832 Yeah. 243 00:21:17,012 --> 00:21:20,532 So that gets going to spread, I think, the service quite rapidly, I would think. 244 00:21:20,652 --> 00:21:21,872 And then so why Prague? 245 00:21:22,452 --> 00:21:24,332 Is the Bitcoin Prague culture real? 246 00:21:24,612 --> 00:21:25,992 I mean, Bitcoin Prague coming up. 247 00:21:26,292 --> 00:21:28,952 And what made the city the right place to build this? 248 00:21:30,392 --> 00:21:31,232 Hell yeah. 249 00:21:31,232 --> 00:21:36,912 I mean, like Cedric, Prague seems to be like currently the Bitcoin capital of Europe. 250 00:21:37,112 --> 00:21:40,492 It's a home of a very strong Bitcoin community. 251 00:21:40,992 --> 00:21:44,732 It's also home of some well-known Bitcoin companies such as Trezor, 252 00:21:44,892 --> 00:21:47,752 like inventor of the first ever hardware wallet. 253 00:21:47,992 --> 00:21:56,132 Also Brains, Brains Pool, that time Slush Pool was like the first ever Bitcoin mining pool 254 00:21:56,132 --> 00:21:59,632 and pretty much the inventors of the concept of mining pool. 255 00:21:59,632 --> 00:22:07,632 So Prague is kind of a place where a lot of Bitcoin history was written and we decided to build here. 256 00:22:07,632 --> 00:22:11,632 There are a lot of talented people around that really care for Bitcoin. 257 00:22:11,632 --> 00:22:20,632 Until very recently, you could pretty much pay in Bitcoin in every restaurant or like 90% of them until very recently. 258 00:22:20,632 --> 00:22:25,232 recently after recently some regulation change and it's not so easy anymore. 259 00:22:25,592 --> 00:22:31,152 But you would be able to pay all your drinks and meals in Lightning. 260 00:22:31,352 --> 00:22:32,832 The Prague Bitcoin culture is real. 261 00:22:33,032 --> 00:22:41,232 And actually, if you have a chance, there is a nice event coming up in July and it's BTC Prague. 262 00:22:41,432 --> 00:22:45,432 I think it's the biggest Bitcoin conference in Europe. 263 00:22:45,632 --> 00:22:48,832 So if you happen to be in Europe at that time, 264 00:22:48,832 --> 00:22:52,492 And I think it's a great opportunity to explore. 265 00:22:53,652 --> 00:22:55,312 Yeah, I hope to make it one year. 266 00:22:55,412 --> 00:22:56,912 It sounds like the best conference in the world. 267 00:22:57,472 --> 00:22:59,752 You mentioned brains and it made me think of sort of, 268 00:23:00,012 --> 00:23:04,332 I'd like to know maybe what you can speculate about who the lenders are. 269 00:23:04,752 --> 00:23:06,512 I had a conversation with Meanwhile, 270 00:23:07,232 --> 00:23:13,152 and it was sort of very insightful on why miners in particular 271 00:23:13,152 --> 00:23:16,912 would want to lend their Bitcoin and get fresh Bitcoin in return 272 00:23:16,912 --> 00:23:21,712 or even cash because they have probably low cost basis Bitcoin they don't necessarily want to sell. 273 00:23:22,352 --> 00:23:26,352 What are the lenders like on the platform, at least from what you can see or speculate about? 274 00:23:27,072 --> 00:23:34,192 Yeah, on Firefish, the lenders lend or invest into the loans. So they invest 275 00:23:34,192 --> 00:23:40,272 fiat currency or stablecoins. Bitcoin, where's as collateral? That's just security that doesn't move. 276 00:23:40,272 --> 00:23:44,352 Like on Firefish, you don't lend your Bitcoin out. 277 00:23:44,552 --> 00:23:49,912 You use Bitcoin as a collateral and borrow or lend the fiat currency or stablecoins. 278 00:23:50,112 --> 00:23:55,592 When it comes to the lenders on Firefish, it's like we are really trying to make it 279 00:23:55,792 --> 00:24:01,872 open for all sorts of people from retail investors to big institutions and creating 280 00:24:02,072 --> 00:24:06,992 different products for them to be able to participate on the marketplace. 281 00:24:06,992 --> 00:24:12,612 And we are seeing like lenders or investors from all of these groups. 282 00:24:12,612 --> 00:24:24,592 Like we, what is cool for many people, for many other users, like investing on Firefish was actually their first experience when they kind of interacted with Bitcoin. 283

00:24:25,052 --> 00:24:27,852 So as an investor, you don't need to hold Bitcoin. 284 00:24:28,272 --> 00:24:30,752 You don't need to understand how the wallets work. 285 00:24:30,752 --> 00:24:40,492 pretty much you just send your money via the platform to somebody else to make their life 286 00:24:40,492 --> 00:24:48,472 better through a loan and earn interest. So it's actually my parents that are kind of 287 00:24:48,472 --> 00:25:03,288 our investors as well And you know they don operate Bitcoin They don have any Bitcoin wallet Bitcoin holdings And even they realized that Bitcoin is helpful for them in some way even without touching it 288 00:25:03,388 --> 00:25:16,008 So this is maybe kind of nice to see that Bitcoin can be useful for people, even without them interacting with the Bitcoin network in any way directly. 289 00:25:16,568 --> 00:25:16,668 Yeah. 290 00:25:17,188 --> 00:25:19,068 Oh, you mentioned stable coins. 291 00:25:19,068 --> 00:25:22,508 How do they fit into the platform and do you support them globally? 292 00:25:23,768 --> 00:25:27,788 For us, stablecoins are just different payment rail. 293 00:25:28,108 --> 00:25:32,508 We treat them in the very same fashion as bank transfers. 294 00:25:33,188 --> 00:25:42,268 So if it is more convenient or your jurisdiction doesn't allow you to be connected to the conventional banking system, 295 00:25:42,788 --> 00:25:45,528 then you might opt for those stablecoins. 296 00:25:45,528 --> 00:25:50,168 They bring some particular benefits for unbanked people. 297 00:25:50,788 --> 00:25:53,948 So we decided to add them to the currency offering. 298 00:25:54,588 --> 00:25:55,228 Yeah, it makes sense. 299 00:25:55,288 --> 00:25:58,668 I think they're a very useful tool for the unbanked for sure. 300 00:25:59,288 --> 00:26:02,668 And it seems like just the next phase of infrastructure. 301 00:26:03,468 --> 00:26:08,028 Do you think lending is the natural next phase for Bitcoin adoption? 302 00:26:08,428 --> 00:26:12,988 I think the lending will not force the adoption per se, 303 00:26:12,988 --> 00:26:19,828 but it will kind of make Bitcoin more useful. At this moment, I think Bitcoin can be useful to you 304 00:26:19,828 --> 00:26:25,428 in a few different ways. For me, Bitcoin is useful as a store of value asset. It's shielding me from 305 00:26:25,428 --> 00:26:29,928 monetary inflation. This is what I expected from the Bitcoin. It's working pretty well. You could 306 00:26:29,928 --> 00:26:35,728 use Bitcoin as a transaction tool as well. And I'm happy to see a lot of people and teams are 307 00:26:35,728 --> 00:26:41,508 iterating about this idea and creating like Bitcoin native payment rails as well. We think 308 00:26:41,508 --> 00:26:51,428 that accessing the value that is kind of embedded in your store of value asset is just the natural 309 00:26:51,428 --> 00:26:58,628 extension of the store of value proposition. It just makes the store of value even more appealing. 310 00:26:58,628 --> 00:27:05,748 Imagine the world where you can save into the, in my eyes, best asset in the world and at the same 311 00:27:05,748 --> 00:27:11,588 time be able to access that value anytime you want. I think this is pretty much a powerful 312 00:27:12,228 --> 00:27:19,668 proposition and the Bitcoin will be even more appealing to all sorts of people that would 313 00:27:19,668 --> 00:27:24,788 also benefit from its properties. You've built something real. Are you enjoying it? 314 00:27:26,948 --> 00:27:32,388 Oh yeah. I mean, for me, it was a very personal thing. Pretty much all my career was 315 00:27:32,388 --> 00:27:42,348 was like corporate kind of in a corporate setting. And at some point, I really got deep 316 00:27:42,348 --> 00:27:48,148 into the Bitcoin and I really started to care. I thought, let's build something that makes 317 00:27:48,148 --> 00:27:55,248 Bitcoin more useful. And well, it's honestly, it's very nice feeling when you meet your 318 00:27:55,248 --> 00:28:02,368 clients at the conference, for example, and you hear the stories how they benefited from 319 00:28:02,368 --> 00:28:04,128 the product you built. 320 00:28:04,628 --> 00:28:11,128 I think this is something that is really powerful and it's recharging my batteries every now 321 00:28:11,128 --> 00:28:11,488 and then. 322 00:28:12,248 --> 00:28:12,828 I love that. 323 00:28:13,468 --> 00:28:18,168 Maybe for the listeners sitting on a meaningful stack who needs liquidity, I know in the United 324 00:28:18,168 --> 00:28:19,768 States, we just went through tax season. 325 00:28:19,928 --> 00:28:20,428 I've been there. 326 00:28:21,208 --> 00:28:22,048 But isn't selling? 327 00:28:22,048 --> 00:28:25,428 What's the first question they should ask themselves before they use Firefish? 328 00:28:25,928 --> 00:28:30,448 Most probably, what is the reason I require liquidity? 329 00:28:30,828 --> 00:28:32,408 You are in front of the two options. 330 00:28:32,548 --> 00:28:36,708 Either you are selling your Bitcoin or we are bringing the second option, 331 00:28:36,988 --> 00:28:43,308 like keep your Bitcoin untouched and access liquidity via non-custodial protocol. 332 00:28:43,508 --> 00:28:45,088 So this is maybe the first question. 333 00:28:45,208 --> 00:28:45,928 Do I want to sell? 334 00:28:46,108 --> 00:28:48,608 I would maybe argue I would never sell. 335 00:28:48,608 --> 00:28:53,768 This will be my answer, but it's free to everybody to decide on that. 336 00:28:54,168 --> 00:28:59,288 Once you decide to borrow, then perhaps you should think about, 337 00:28:59,408 --> 00:29:02,788 like, what are the embedded risks I'm taking when I'm engaging 338 00:29:02,788 --> 00:29:04,948 with a protocol platform or a lender? 339 00:29:05,728 --> 00:29:10,048 And there are some, especially when you are engaging 340 00:29:10,048 --> 00:29:13,488 with a centralized lender, they might disappear at some point. 341 00:29:13,488 --> 00:29:21,628 And we have a long history of events

like that for those who remember like Celsius and BlockFi and many others. 342 00:29:22,548 --> 00:29:25,168 So am I okay with such risk? 343 00:29:25,468 --> 00:29:31,088 If not, maybe I would choose something that doesn't rely on the trust so much. 344 00:29:31,588 --> 00:29:34,608 And one of the options out there actually is Firefish. 345 00:29:35,588 --> 00:29:35,728 Yeah. 346 00:29:35,888 --> 00:29:41,728 Well, where can people find you, Firefish, and the research papers you guys have been putting out? 347 00:29:41,728 --> 00:29:48,668 Yeah, it's a lot of information is available on firefish.io. There is a nice doc section 348 00:29:48,668 --> 00:29:53,688 where you can see like technical write up about the protocol. I didn't want to go too 349 00:29:53,688 --> 00:29:59,568 deep into that. But for whoever we technical, I think they would enjoy the read. It's quite 350 00:29:59,568 --> 00:30:07,128 digestible, I would say. Also, maybe check out our blog section where we talk about technical 351 00:30:07,128 --> 00:30:09,328 but also non-technical stuff. 352 00:30:09,548 --> 00:30:11,248 Also, maybe follow us on X, 353 00:30:11,668 --> 00:30:12,788 firefish underscore IO. 354 00:30:13,148 --> 00:30:14,288 What I found most interesting, 355 00:30:14,408 --> 00:30:15,048 I think like sort of, 356 00:30:15,928 --> 00:30:18,768 there's like 93% return rate 357 00:30:18,768 --> 00:30:21,448 of multiple loans on the platform. 358 00:30:21,608 --> 00:30:22,808 So usually maybe someone comes over 359 00:30:22,808 --> 00:30:24,988 and takes a moderate size loan 360 00:30:24,988 --> 00:30:25,908 to test it out. 361 00:30:25,988 --> 00:30:26,288 And then they, 362 00:30:26,688 --> 00:30:28,228 93% seem to be returning. 363 00:30:28,568 --> 00:30:30,568 And I'm going through my first loan now 364 00:30:30,568 --> 00:30:32,268 and I could see why you'd want to maybe, 365 00:30:33,308 --> 00:30:34,508 you know, you get comfortable with it 366 00:30:34,508 --> 00:30:36,048 and you want more liquidity 367 00:30:36,048 --> 00:30:37,788 and you don't want to sell your Bitcoin. 368 00:30:38,068 --> 00:30:39,888 So I love what you guys are building. 369 00:30:40,608 --> 00:30:41,268 Thank you. 370 00:30:41,828 --> 00:30:43,648 It's music for my ears. 371 00:30:43,828 --> 00:30:46,568 I appreciate what you are saying. 372 00:30:46,888 --> 00:30:51,528 As you mentioned, a lot of people are returning to the platform, 373 00:30:51,748 --> 00:30:53,728 pretty much like most of them. 374 00:30:54,288 --> 00:30:59,688 It seems that once you realize how useful the tool can be to you, 375 00:30:59,688 --> 00:31:01,048 to your personal finance, 376 00:31:01,408 --> 00:31:04,308 you tend to incorporate it to your financial strategy. 377 00:31:04,308 --> 00:31:09,028 So this is how we explain the high return rates on the platform. 378 00:31:09,488 --> 00:31:10,208 Sounds good. 379 00:31:10,308 --> 00:31:13,708 Well, I hope to meet you in person one day, maybe next year in Bitcoin Prague. 380 00:31:13,788 --> 00:31:14,928 I don't think I'll make it this year. 381 00:31:15,608 --> 00:31:16,848 But it's been such a pleasure. 382 00:31:17,328 --> 00:31:18,388 Looking forward to it. 383 00:31:18,668 --> 00:31:18,948 Likewise. 384 00:31:19,408 --> 00:31:19,928 Talk soon. 385 00:31:20,268 --> 00:31:23,548 Hey, hey, and that's a wrap on this one. 386 00:31:24,088 --> 00:31:28,808 If this conversation added value, share it with one person who needs to hear it. 387 00:31:29,148 --> 00:31:32,928 That is how the Bitcoin matrix, where critical thinkers meet, grows. 388 00:31:32,928 --> 00:31:40,588 huge thanks to our sponsors stamp seed firefish club orange and camp nakamoto these are companies 389 00:31:40,588 --> 00:31:45,728 and products i personally use and believe in please support them so they can keep supporting 390 00:31:45,728 --> 00:31:52,548 the show links and codes for all of them are in the show notes not on fountain yet five dollars a 391 00:31:52,548 --> 00:31:58,988 month gets you every episode a full day early completely ad free or one dollar per episode 392 00:31:58,988 --> 00:32:05,848 after early access. Follow me on X. I'm at Sed Youngelman. The show is at underscore Bitcoin 393 00:32:05,848 --> 00:32:13,108 Matrix. We're in the conversation every single day. The Matrix is real. Keep on stacking. Keep 394 00:32:13,108 --> 00:32:19,928 your head on a swivel. Spend your time well. And thank you for listening. Hey, hey, and that's a 395 00:32:19,928 --> 00:32:26,188 wrap on this one. If this conversation added value, share it with one person who needs to hear it. 396 00:32:26,188 --> 00:32:30,468 That is how the Bitcoin matrix, where critical thinkers meet, grows. 397 00:32:31,268 --> 00:32:36,428 Huge thanks to our sponsors, Stamp Seed, Firefish, Club Orange, and Camp Nakamoto. 398 00:32:37,108 --> 00:32:40,088 These are companies and products I personally use and believe in. 399 00:32:40,588 --> 00:32:43,588 Please support them so they can keep supporting the show. 400 00:32:44,228 --> 00:32:46,768 Links and codes for all of them are in the show notes. 401 00:32:47,388 --> 00:32:48,468 Not on Fountain yet? 402 00:32:48,908 --> 00:32:54,408 $5 a month gets you every episode a full day early, completely ad-free. 403 00:32:54,408 --> 00:32:57,668 or $1 per episode after early access. 404 00:32:58,348 --> 00:32:59,388 Follow me on X. 405 00:32:59,628 --> 00:33:00,808 I'm at Sed Youngelman. 406 00:33:01,268 --> 00:33:03,648 The show is at underscore Bitcoin Matrix. 407 00:33:04,168 --> 00:33:06,828 We're in the conversation every single day. 408 00:33:07,408 --> 00:33:08,548 The Matrix is real. 409 00:33:09,008 --> 00:33:09,888 Keep on stacking. 410 00:33:10,288 --> 00:33:11,388 Keep your head on a swivel. 411 00:33:11,808 --> 00:33:12,828 Spend your time well. 412 00:33:13,108 --> 00:33:14,668 And thank you for listening.