บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Reassembling Yourself: Turning Grief Into Growth with Deborah Hanlon

listening and you don't know who that is, I just want to share my experience. 00:04:56.639 --> 00:04:59.439 Then Deborah, tell us your experience with him. 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:07.759 But his books, conversations with God, truly changed my belief system. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:15.439 Pretty much about everything we put for sure around God, spirituality, religion, all of it. 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.000 That it's so much more accessible to all of us, sweetie. 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:27.759 I don't want to say anything bad about structured religions, but it truly gave me a sense of oh, we're all connected. 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.279 We are truly all spiritual beings on this planet. 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:33.439 I highly recommend those books. 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.639 Anyway, t tell us your experience with him. 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:37.839 Yeah, same. 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:42.319 And it really is like an absolute dream come true because that was my intention. 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:46.079 And that was a very slim to none intention. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.079 So for those of you who are holding an intention for something out there, hold it. 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:53.759 Maybe that's why you're listening to the podcast, because just to hear that. 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:55.680 Not keep your intention. 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:56.079 Yeah. 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:59.120 But the I I've loved him since conversations with God. 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:04.800 I think I read that I was like 18, 19, somewhere fairly young at that time when it first came out. 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.120 And also realized, wow, like this is it. 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:11.680 His work is like makes so much sense. 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:13.439 So I've always loved him. 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:18.079 And he wrote a children's book called The Little Soul in the Sun. 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:30.399 And I give this book to when I had a physical center before COVID, I would have 10 copies on my shelves and I would give it to people after a session with me who like had questions about why they're here. 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:32.959 So he's just been in my world. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:36.079 But lo and behold, I took a workshop with him. 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:44.720 And out of that workshop, I received not received part of it was you receive, you have three sessions with him one-on-one on Zoom. 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:45.199 Wow. 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:52.639 So I was able to sit with him three times and really work on whatever was coming up. 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:54.160 And then I extended that. 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:57.360 And I had shared with him this book. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:06.800 And I shared with him some of my early memories of grief and one of my most formative memories of when I was six years old. 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:11.360 And I shared with him what it was, five or six actually. 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:18.000 And he said, Deborah, you do know, you do know I

was at that event. 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:18.560 Wow. 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:24.560 He was there at an event that I attended with my mother when I was five or six with Dr. 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:25.920 Elizabeth Kugler-Ross. 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:26.560 Dr. 00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:29.279 Elizabeth Kugler Ross is the founder of Hospice. 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:31.920 She is the guru of all things hospice. 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:33.199 She's the founder. 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:38.720 She has since passed, but she is talking, she wrote the five stages of grief. 00:07:38.959 --> 00:07:43.040 So this book is now this wild full circle. 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:47.600 My most formative memory, I happened to share it with him, and he said, I was at that event. 00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:49.360 I know exactly which one you're talking about. 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:52.240 So that means we connected when I was about five or six. 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:52.879 Wow. 00:07:53.199 --> 00:08:08.240 So when that came to be, and I'm writing about grief, and I kept telling him I want to do Kugla Ross justice by extending this concept of grief because she wrote the book, The Five Stages of Grief. 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:09.920 But I feel like there's more. 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:12.959 The fact that he said, Oh, maybe I'll take a look at your book. 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.160 Maybe I will, maybe I won't if I have time, type of thing. 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:17.519 I sent him an email. 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:18.399 The book is done. 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:23.120 I sent him a copy, and his office said, No, I'm sorry, he's not doing any more. 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.680 He has hundreds of requests a year. 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.399 And I figured, okay, like at least I tried. 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:32.080 And two days later, maybe three, he sent me the forward. 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:32.720 Wow. 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:34.639 Sent me the forward. 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:36.639 And talk about tears. 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.720 Just like what a full circle moment for me. 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:43.200 And the arena of grief as well. 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:43.840 Yeah. 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:45.840 First of all, congratulations on that. 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:51.200 I'm in the phase right now with my new book, Secrets of the Sensei of gathering endorsements. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:57.200 So I know exactly there are some long shots that I sent out over the last couple of weeks. 00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:02.480 I'm like, I probably will not get a response, but hey, I'm gonna go for it anyway. 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:03.120 Let's see. 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:11.039 And then some wonderful people have that I really admire have already sent over some good book blurbs, including you. 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:11.759 Thank you. 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:13.519 So I get what that feels like. 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:14.960 That's a huge accomplishment. 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:16.720 Talk to me about

grief. 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.080 Is your book solely about when people die? 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:28.159 It actually has has little to do with when people die, because that's typically the framework. 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:33.600 When you hear grief, you we all instantly think grief from the death of a loved one. 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:35.840 And that is correct. 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.840 Of course, there's grief around that. 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:46.960 But when we can look at grief in this larger context, we can see, oh my gosh, there's grief in every moment of our lives, every moment. 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:57.519 So this is breaking down or expanding grief, which however you want to look at it, into all the griefs that a death of a loved one tends to kick off. 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:07.919 I call them micro-griefs, where we can really identify the these smaller things that we never even registered to ourselves that, oh my gosh, I'm grieving. 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:21.120 The things like I didn't get into the college of my dreams, the grief there, the not having the life we imagined, the breakups, the leaving a job, the empty nesting that people go through. 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:26.159 There's grief, it's just permeating through our day in all sorts of forms. 00:10:26.320 --> 00:10:39.600 So it's looking at grief in that larger context through the micro griefs, and then extending a sense of honoring those moments because the grief gets stored in our body. 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.919 All emotions obviously get stored in our body, but grief is quite heavy. 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:48.720 And those micro griefs are embedded in us. 00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:55.039 And if we don't look at them as grief, then we can't process them as grief, which means we can't move beyond them. 00:10:55.519 --> 00:11:07.440 And this book is all about I have been on both sides of grief, observing it through other people's, and of course, deeply embedded in my own. 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:15.679 And I can see that grief is the single most transformative energy we are given. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.080 And if we can look at it that way, it shifts things. 00:11:20.320 --> 00:11:26.159 And this is not like polypositivity, it's not look on the be positive, it is not that at all. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.519 It's more of like, whoa, getting a sense of ourselves of look what I've endured. 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:37.279 Look what all these disappointments that have boiled up to grief, look what I've still, I'm still here. 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:37.840 Yeah. 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:45.039 And using that as a vehicle for change versus something that completely crushes us. 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:45.840 Yeah. 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:56.559 Because if we don't process that grief, I know because I had when you're talking here, I'm just thinking about these years of I just had like knockdown after knockdown. 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:13.600 I share about it in my next book, but a lot of it was like this pregnancy loss, this, that, like all things like so coming at me so rapid fire that I shoved it all down and I just kept powering through and was like, work, I gotta focus. 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:20.960 And then I don't know when, but I remember doing The Artist's Way, her book. 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:22.480 I can't remember her name right now. 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:44.960 Anyway, the all this journaling for this, and all of a sudden, this stuff came up from it, felt like the depths of I don't even know where, but it I really understood in that moment or in those few days that I was processing that, like that was the grief that I never allowed myself to deal with, and I let never allowed myself to feel. 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:51.519 And I bet there's things right now that someone listening out there is not allowing themselves to feel. 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.600 So, what are what can happen to us? 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:56.080 You said it gets stored in our body, but then what? 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:00.720 What can happen if we never heal this grief or process it, I should say? 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:08.480 Yep, we it becomes our personality, it becomes our way of life, and we confuse the grief with who we are. 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:13.360 And so it everything gets very unclear on who we are. 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:14.559 We feel terrible. 00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:17.759 Oh, I must be terrible, or I'm not good at this thing. 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:29.679 And it's just it just layers over self-doubt and just all those layers, and it's not necessary, it is a big waste of our energy. 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.960 And so I give a visual for grief. 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:34.399 It's like a piece of coal. 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:45.200 It's and if you've ever held a piece of coal, you will know that it is very hard, very dense, very shiny, sharp, and soot, sooty. 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:46.799 It gets soot all over everything. 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:54.559 The minute you touch a piece of coal, everything starts turning dusty and ashy and black and not just messy. 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:56.240 And that's what grief is. 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.440 It's just the minute we touch it, it gets all over everything. 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:05.120 However, under the right conditions, a piece of coal can move a freight chain. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:13.759 So what how are we going to harness that mess into something that's quite transformative? 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:15.600 And that's what I see with grief. 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:18.960 As we nothing brings us closer to our knees than grief. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.799 Nothing makes us just give up like grief. 00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.039 Nothing makes us just completely dissolved. 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:28.639 We're completely like, who am I? 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:29.600 I don't even know who I am. 00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:30.639 I don't even care. 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:45.679

All of those things bring us out of this old identity, and then we have to reassemble ourselves, which is why the book is this whole concept of yeah, it breaks us down that we can reassemble and put ourselves back together. 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:52.399 And those parts that made us where we got broken, where we were broke, those become the strongest. 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:53.600 Love it. 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:54.159 Okay. 00:14:54.879 --> 00:15:02.080 You mentioned you mentioned microgrief, but then there's another concept that you introduced called inherited grief. 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:03.440 What is that about? 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:09.440 Inherited grief is the grief, like the unconscious grief, the grief that we didn't even know was ours. 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:16.240 Maybe it's the conditioning that was placed upon us, whether it's culturally or just within our own family. 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:22.480 We inherit this way of thinking and being that is also grief laden. 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.759 Even the old adage, children should be seen and not heard. 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:31.679 This complete annihilation of a population just because they're young, and that's lifting now. 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:33.840 Wait a minute, children's feelings matter. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:35.759 That's an inherited belief. 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:37.120 It's an inherited grief. 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.320 And then we live that out. 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.960 What did our generation do, especially females? 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:47.039 We were quiet, didn't speak up, didn't assert our power, look where we are today. 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:47.440 Yes. 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.799 These are important things to really look into to see. 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.120 Wait a minute, this isn't even mine. 00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:55.440 It's mine to start with. 00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:05.279 So they're like limiting bully, but what are other some good examples of inherited griefs that you've worked with clients that have uncovered? 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:07.440 Oh, then my gosh, so many. 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:13.360 An inherited belief that there is no such thing as an afterlife definitely is one that comes up all the time. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:28.399 Inherited belief that if we were never forgiven, and I don't use forgiven in a religious context, but in a much, much broader context of we are human and we are doing what we can with what we've got for the most part. 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.720 Inherited griefs of partners' beliefs. 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:51.360 That's again, we've inherit like their belief system, which might not be our alignment, and that's super unconscious, where we realize, wait a minute, I'm starting to think like my partner, and it's sometimes it's a good thing, but inheritive grief is not necessarily a a forward movement. 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:52.240 Got it. 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:54.960 Okay, I like it. 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:02.639 Let's can we start diving into the your stages of grief. 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.480 First of all, Elizabeth Kudler Ross, is that correct? 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:06.960 Yes. 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.519 Her five stages of grief are grief are. 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:10.720 Can you repeat those? 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:13.599 Anger, denial. 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:15.920 My gosh, I really should know these. 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.000 Anger, denial, begging. 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.160 There's another word like begging, pleading. 00:17:20.319 --> 00:17:20.480 Oh. 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:21.680 Oh my gosh. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:23.920 I know what you're trying to say. 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.079 I should know those off the top of my head. 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:39.200 But those are in the context of a person dying, what they go through, and the people around them are going through when you hear that news that someone is dying. 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:40.480 But yeah. 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:41.359 Anger. 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.519 Well, let's skip that because I I should know it too, but I can't remember it right now. 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:50.559 But I was gonna say I literally wrote a book up her heels, and I should know that. 00:17:51.279 --> 00:18:00.240 But I remember like those five stages of grief I feel have been rebuked over time, or like you're saying, like there's more to it. 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:06.000 So let's dive into your framework around grief and those different stages. 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.720 I think the first is called the drop. 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:09.359 Yes. 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:17.759 The drop is that moment where something big happens that it's like, oh my gosh, I'm forever changed. 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:20.960 Whether you really consciously know that or not. 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:26.960 It's that moment where, oh my gosh, this is permanent, or so it feels permanent. 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:31.519 So it's that sudden loss, sudden moment that life will never be the same. 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:33.039 Oh, that's the worst. 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.839 You literally feel a drop in your stomach. 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:36.640 Exactly. 00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:41.279 That's where I named it from is that drop of oh my gosh. 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:52.160 So the body, do you think the body can understand things quicker or before our minds can even process it? 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:53.039 100%. 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:53.759 Yeah. 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.279 The body's always feeling, I think it's three seconds before, actually, like quite hard science on that. 00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:03.279 Literally does process information before our mind does. 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:06.240 But yeah, our body is going through all of this. 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:13.839 And I just had a session with a client of really practicing going into the body for anything intuitive into the body. 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:20.799

It comes through as if the mind is sharing it, but it's the body that knows it, and the mind interprets it. 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:29.359 When we were in Italy, Deborah led a workshop for us, and that is exactly what you helped me do around a limiting belief. 00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:41.920 And I remember so well, so clearly feeling it in like my gut and thinking, and then the next thought that came to me was like, oh, this isn't my belief. 00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:45.039 This was an inherited belief from my mom. 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:53.599 And and then the next thought was I don't need I don't need to believe this anymore because it's literally not mine. 00:19:54.480 --> 00:20:03.680 So that practice truly helped me transform limiting belief and go deeper into this mind-body work. 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:05.119 So thank you for that. 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:14.640 But tell us what in the book do you you describe each phase, but do you give us like pointers, how to do what to do? 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:26.559 Yeah, so I'm so glad that you asked that very question because bef before even the stages, the most pervasive theme in the book is based off of a quote. 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:32.079 And the quote is when you can't look on the bright side, I will sit with you in the dark. 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:46.880 And what that means is for someone grieving or even someone in joy, uh when we cannot when we just don't have access to the the bright side, we just want presence from someone. 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:54.640 We don't necessarily need advice, we don't necessarily need guidance or direction, we don't necessarily need pampering. 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:59.839 We often just need someone to hear us, to be with us. 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:04.400 And so the book is literally my goal is for the book to be that. 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:12.160 Let this book be your presence with you, whether it's you to you or me to you, me as the author to you. 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:13.920 Just feel the presence of it. 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:19.200 And the stages come from coming from that presence of yourself. 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.279 You can identify, oh, here's where I'm at in my process. 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:28.400 Not to use too many spiritual development cliches and things, but it's an important word. 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:28.880 Yeah. 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.759 But the stages aren't linear, they are like a spiral. 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:48.319 They you'll see one day you're in one stage, and then the next day it feels like the drop all over again because a song prompted a memory and played, and we just start crying for no reason or getting angry or whatever it is that we do when we're grieving and all of it. 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:50.400 So the stages aren't meant to be linear. 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:53.039 It's just to show you no, you're doing it right. 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:54.240 You're you you're right. 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:57.119 Wherever you are is

where you are. 00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:57.599 Yeah. 00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.599 And that's all you need to be. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.960 Versus when you said, what do we do? 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:12.079 The book is designed, and I explained this in the beginning, where I give doing practices, but it's more about the presence. 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:13.359 It's the beingness. 00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:14.799 Be with the grief. 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:16.559 Be with it as it is. 00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:24.640 Whether that's anger, whether that's procrastination, whether that's I need to block certain people, however, all the ways that we handle ourselves. 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:25.759 And just be with that. 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:26.799 Try to change it. 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:28.319 Don't try to push through it. 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.880 Don't try to grit, grind, hustle through. 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:32.400 It's not going to work. 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.200 And it's going to concretize the grief. 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:36.559 It's going to keep it there. 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:40.880 So this is all about less doing this because that's what we all want to do. 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:41.680 What do I do? 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:42.799 Tell me what I do. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:44.640 Tell me what to do to fix it. 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:45.680 Exactly. 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:46.640 Make this go away. 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:47.759 Make it make it better. 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:48.880 Heal me. 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:54.400 And I do have a deep trust in humans that you know what you're doing. 00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:56.480 Even when we don't, go inward. 00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.119 Trust. 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:02.720 Find that still small voice inside yourself that is present in every single one of us. 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.559 I don't want to be the guru for you. 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.359 I don't have any interest in that at all. 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:12.160 I have a deep interest in letting people feel reconnected to themselves. 00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:18.000 Because if more people are connected to themselves, we live in a world full of connected humans. 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:19.119 Don't follow me. 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.240 Do it and do it yourself. 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:25.759 Because you can connect with yourself. 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:26.319 Okay. 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:39.839 The next phase, again, and we can go through each one or s or skip a few, but I want to just talk about the days because I remember the date, and I'm not saying days like days of the week. 00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:42.319 It's D-A-Z-E, the days. 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:44.000 Tell us about that. 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.279 The days is just that I can't believe this happened. 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:48.720 I don't know what's going on. 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:50.079 It's the numbness. 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.559 It's the everything is surreal. 00:23:53.039

--> 00:23:54.960 And at the same time, it's quite real. 00:23:55.119 --> 00:24:00.240 So which that alone, that conflict is so strange to be something so raw and real. 00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.720 And also be like, I can't believe it. 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.680 I literally can't even believe this has happened to me. 00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:06.559 Denial. 00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:10.960 But denial gives us this negative connotation as if we're doing something wrong. 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.279 Where sometimes denial is helpful for the psyche and the emotional center. 00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:23.200 Not always, but sometimes denial is good in small doses because too much to our nervous system completely overloads us. 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:25.599 So the days is just that I don't know what to do. 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.319 What do I do? 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:27.119 What do I do? 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:27.920 I don't know. 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:28.880 Who am I? 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:30.480 Like, what does this mean? 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:36.319 All those questions that we ask in the face of this horrendous reality of whatever it is. 00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:36.960 Okay. 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.920 And the next one is the cocoon is that retreat inward. 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:50.640 It's that time where it's like, okay, this drop, this, my nervous system went lit up and went into disorientation. 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.599 And um, and these are all happening at the same time. 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.759 It's not like you move linear linearly to one to the other. 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.759 But then there's some point where we realize I've got to pull back. 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.519 I've got to come into myself. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.519 And maybe that's when we're blocking people, or I can't pick up the phone. 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:08.480 I don't want to go out. 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.599 I don't want to do my life in that old way. 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:14.640 I just need to come in inward. 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.799 And again, a lot of times people look at those things as negative, as bad. 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.400 No, you need people around you. 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:21.920 No, you need to get out. 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:24.720 And no, not always. 00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.440 It's we need time to just be. 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:33.519 And yes, we can feel super depressed by ourselves, but there's nothing wrong with that. 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.599 As long as we know how to reach for help when it gets to a critical mass, of course. 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:44.960 But there's nothing wrong with needing time with ourselves and not wanting so much exposure to everyone else's nervous system. 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:45.839 Wow. 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:58.480 It's so it can feel like we think it's bad because when people self-isolate, sometimes that can be a negative thing, but you're saying no, it doesn't have to be. 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.319 We can isolate, we can cocoon. 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.200 I like that word better, and just be with ourselves. 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:03.920 Yeah. 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.240 Totally zoning out. 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:07.359 Totally. 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:09.359 But I also call it checking out sometimes. 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:10.559 I just need to check out. 00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:10.960 Yeah. 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.400 I just need to check out. 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:13.039 Awesome. 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:13.839 Okay. 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:19.279 I like that there's no if what it feels like anyway, there's no wrong way to do this. 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.119 That's thank you. 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:22.160 That is a big thing. 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.000 When the book I say, if you if you don't know how to handle your grieving, you do. 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:26.720 You're doing it. 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:27.440 Doing it. 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:34.079 And there's no, we hear the cliches, there's no right way to do it, there's no wrong way to do it, there's no timetable for it. 00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.920 That's really frustrating to hear. 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:37.920 It would be really great if it was like three months. 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:38.880 You should be at this point. 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:39.359 Five months. 00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:40.400 It doesn't work like that. 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:41.440 It just doesn't. 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:49.039 So it's really paying attention to your process versus trying to make your process be something that it's not. 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:49.839 Okay. 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:50.640 Got it. 00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:59.359 I feel like growing up in uh a very like Italian my my dad's family was very Italian, very off-the-boat Italian. 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:04.160 And I remember like when people died, the widows would wear black, but not just for the week. 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.079 I'm talking sometimes years. 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.920 And and like you said in the beginning, it almost becomes their personality. 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:11.119 Yes. 00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.480 Would that be taking it a little too far? 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:25.039 Again, no wrong way, but when I when I then saw my mom become a widow, she was moving on in her life pretty fast. 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:28.079 And I was also thinking, is that too fast? 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:29.119 Why do we even care? 00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:30.559 Why do we judge people? 00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:31.680 Totally. 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:32.880 Why do we judge people? 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.720 It's it's that's the question of the decade. 00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:47.680 Because we really don't know anything unless we've been there, and even when we've been there, we're doing it differently anyway. 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:48.559 We're doing it out. 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:50.400 Now I say that in the

book too. 00:27:50.559 --> 00:28:00.559 This is your grief, and I've been around a lot of grief, my own, and tens of thousands of clients over 25 years, and I still don't know your grief. 00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:05.119 So your grief is not gonna fit a model, and that's the whole point. 00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:07.039 It's like just find yours. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:12.400 What is your process and be with yourself in the dark the whole time? 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:20.960 Just sit with yourself in this dark period, or have someone sit with you, me through the book, sit with you in the dark. 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:21.920 Awesome. 00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.000 I'm so glad you wrote this. 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:29.920 Okay, there's one more that I want to definitely touch on, which is because it's just a funny name, the goo phase. 00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:31.759 What the hell is the goo phase? 00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.000 The goo phase is my favorite. 00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:46.319 The goo phase is when this sense of when a caterpillar goes and makes their cocoon, they go into this cocoon, and then in the cocoon, they dissolve into a goo. 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:52.160 And they are not a caterpillar and they are not a butterfly, they are just goo. 00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.759 So the goo phase is that happens to us as well. 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:04.559 The person we were before the drop, before this thing in our life that is dismantling us, we become goo. 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:10.160 We're not that person anymore, but we're not yet the person out of it either. 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:11.279 We're goo. 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.799 It's like we have it's a real identity crisis, we can call it. 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:16.319 It's a real like, who am I? 00:29:16.480 --> 00:29:17.519 What do I even care about? 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:22.640 I can't believe I was ever in that relationship, or I can't believe I ever had that job, but I really miss it. 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:27.680 And all the things you're you're neither there nor here. 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:29.599 It's just all goo. 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:38.640 And I feel like this point of life of being 50 is also very gooey, where it's like, I'm not who I was, but I'm not who I'm going to be. 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:41.119 This these stages come up all the time. 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:45.680 It's not just in grief, but goo is my favorite because that's a time of real rest. 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:48.400 That's a time of real, yeah, don't push it. 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.400 Don't try for anything, don't try to make anything happen yet. 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:53.839 You're in goo. 00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:56.079 You are reassembling. 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.799 That goo is making itself anew. 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:06.240 But when we're not clear with what that person is yet or who that person is going to be, just be goo. 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:12.240 And then the goo starts to reassemble, starts to completely bring you out through the other side. 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:13.279 I love that. 00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:23.200 I'm gonna I'm gonna think about that right now because before my book comes out, I feel like I'm in the goo phase right now, but I do need to push, I need to do certain things. 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:24.319 So maybe. 00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:33.680 But I'm not quite that person yet, and I'm not the old person who wrote the last book, I feel. 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:37.759 And turning 50, just like you did this year. 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.000 So I like that analogy too. 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:41.200 I'm in the goo. 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:42.480 In the goo. 00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:47.839 And the goo is really good if you recognize it as goo versus what's wrong with me. 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.000 I'm not motivated, I've got no energy, I just can't do it. 00:30:52.160 --> 00:30:54.000 There, I'm not interested anymore. 00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.400 Those are the thoughts that go bring us. 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.720 And when we can realize, okay, it's just goo phase, it's just gooey. 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:05.279 I'm not that, I'm not here, I don't know what here looks like or feels like. 00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:08.880 I don't, I want to go back to this, but I really don't at the same time. 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:10.079 I'm neither place. 00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:11.519 That's why it's my favorite. 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.039 Okay, good, good. 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:22.400 Before we I have to say the last one, which is the breakthrough, because uh we need to have an ending here, but we skipped a couple phases, just FYI. 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:25.839 So you can go and get the book and make sure that you read through them all. 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.480 But what happens at the breakthrough? 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:34.000 The breakthrough is like when that goo is finally starting to come together. 00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:39.119 And it's like, oh, I have a motivation, I have a direction, I have an interest. 00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:48.079 I maybe if you had a terrible breakup or a divorce, it's the time where you might say, Oh, I might go out with somebody again, or I never want to go out with somebody again. 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.039 Either way, it's the real start of direction. 00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:54.400 Not very clear, but it's still okay. 00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:56.000 Here I'm starting to come back. 00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:58.079 I'm not myself because I'm not. 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:01.839 You're not going to be yourself, but you're coming into a new self. 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:04.559 So there's some sort of forward movement happening. 00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.279 And it doesn't have to look giant, it usually isn't. 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:10.079 Sometimes that's okay, I'm showering again. 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.480 Okay, I'm not spending all day in bed. 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:14.960 Sometimes it's all right, I'm

gonna go for a walk today. 00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:16.640 And I haven't walked in three years. 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:17.759 I'm gonna go for a walk. 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.799 It there could be millions of different breakthroughs. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:21.839 I love that. 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:22.319 Okay. 00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:28.400 At the end, sorry, I know there's actually one more, but you don't have to get into that. 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:29.839 The re-entry, is that right? 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.079 The very last one is the echo. 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:38.160 And this is when grief changes us, but we never get over a grief. 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:42.799 And I think we need to stop trying to get over something. 00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:43.359 Okay. 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:48.480 When something traumatic happens to us, it changes us. 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.160 We don't need to get over it. 00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.559 We need to move with it. 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:58.480 Instead of move on, we move with it and let it move with us versus trying to put it behind us. 00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:59.519 It happened. 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:01.359 We can't change what happened. 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:03.759 So let's not try to pretend it didn't. 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:13.039 And when we do that, we have this forward movement, but the echo is those moments where you're like, I've got this, everything is different, and I'm good now. 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:18.240 But then you have a little reverberation of a pang of, I remember when that hurt. 00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:25.680 And when you know you're in the echo, is the things that used to bother you and level you for weeks, months, years even. 00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:30.079 In the echo, they take maybe a few hours where you're like, ow, that really hurt. 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:31.599 Oh man, that was terrible. 00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:34.640 You wake up the next day and you're like, okay, I'm new again. 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:36.480 The echo, it never leaves us. 00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:39.599 I don't want us to think that, okay, good, it's behind me. 00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:40.079 I'm good. 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:44.400 No, it shows up, but it shows up less and for less duration. 00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:45.920 Yes, less duration. 00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:50.319 I I can relate to that in a lot of different things, even just pangs. 00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:53.440 To me, that it would just feel like a pang, like a oof. 00:33:54.240 --> 00:34:06.319 But then thinking about my dad or something, and it's like pang, but then I'm like, oh, but here we are, like here we are in present day, and that's the reality of life. 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.840 We yes, we transform, we echo. 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:10.639 I love it. 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:13.920 Oh, I got my copy just yesterday. 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.800 So I dug in this morning, but I'm gonna read the entire thing and report back. 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:25.360 Everyone out there, make sure you get a copy of Deborah Hanlon's Reassembling Yourself, Turning Grief into Growth. 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.360 I think it's gonna be really transformative for a lot of people. 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.039 So thank you for writing this. 00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:32.960 Thank you, and thank you for having me on. 00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:34.159 And it's great to see you. 00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:34.960 So good. 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.920 But before we go, I have some rapid fire questions for you. 00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:38.880 Are you ready? 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:39.840 I'm ready. 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:40.400 Okay. 00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:46.159 Added a couple for you that are different than the usual, but rapid fire. 00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:50.960 What's the first thing you would say to someone when they tell you that they're grieving? 00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:52.960 And just listen. 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:54.800 Good any months. 00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:58.079 Deborah, what's your morning routine? 00:34:58.400 --> 00:34:59.519 Oh gosh. 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:07.840 Now at 6 30 in the morning, I start every morning with meditation and I do that online, and anyone can join that 6 30 on Zoom, 6 30 Eastern. 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:09.599 That's seven days a week. 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:11.679 So I do start with the morning meditation. 00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:12.079 Yeah. 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:12.639 Oh, I should be able to do that. 00:35:12.800 --> 00:35:14.400 That's very life-changing. 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.519 And then sometimes I'll go back to sleep because I am a Taurus and I love my bed. 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:27.119 Other times it's like coffee, it's the slow roll now where I used to hit the floor, my feet would hit the floor and I'd just take off. 00:35:27.199 --> 00:35:29.039 And now it's much more intentional. 00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:30.159 Ooh, I like that. 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:30.960 Okay, great. 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:34.559 You probably answered this a long time ago when you first came on the podcast. 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:39.440 But if you can have a drink with someone alive or dead, who is it and what's in your cup? 00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:50.639 Oh gosh, I think I would love to meet either Albert Einstein or Nicholas Tesla. 00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:53.840 And what was in my cup? 00:35:53.920 --> 00:35:56.239 It probably would have been wine in the past. 00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:01.119 Um I think it's a good, it's just a really good water with lemon. 00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:02.719 Really? 00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:03.280 You? 00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:04.800 I mean, really, yes. 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:06.239 No persecco. 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:14.400 Yeah, prosecco is nice, but even that, I had much I've struck some moderation with all of that, thankfully. 00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:16.800 What happens when we go back to Italy? 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.559 There will be no moderation when it comes to Prosecco Torchi. 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:22.559 Got it. 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.719 What is your favorite nonfiction self-help book? 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:28.559 Oh gosh. 00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:33.599 Well I would have to say Conversations with God, The Little Soul in the Sun, anything by Neil. 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:34.639 Awesome. 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.239 And last but not least, what's your favorite hype song? 00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:40.480 Ooh, that's a funny one. 00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:46.239 This is how we do it, is what came up to me, but that's not a song I listened to. 00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:53.760 I like something new called Valhalla, I think it's called, or it's I think it was an AI song. 00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:54.320 No. 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:56.239 I've been really listening to that. 00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:56.880 Really? 00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:57.920 I'm not putting that on. 00:36:58.000 --> 00:36:59.280 I'm putting this is how we do it. 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:02.639 Because that was the first that's what came up in my mind. 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:04.320 Gotta listen with your gut first. 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:04.880 That's right. 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:06.880 Deborah, thank you so much for coming on. 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.119 Everyone out there, thank you so much for listening. 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:15.519 If you wouldn't mind, please take a moment to make sure you subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening. 00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:18.800 Leaving a review would be amazing. 00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:23.920 Helping to get this podcast in more people's ears and hearts around the world. 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:24.800 Thank you so much. 00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:27.920 And I'll see you next time on the Art of Bad Astrophy podcast. 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.320 But wait, where can we find you, Deborah? 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.199 Yep, all my stuff is on Deborah Hanlon.com or Instagram Deborah M. 00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:36.159 Hanlon. 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:37.119 Perfect. 00:37:37.360 --> 00:37:37.760 All right. 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:38.639 Thanks so much. 00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:40.239 We'll see you next time.