บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Breaking Chains, Building Futures | Dr. Stanley Andrisse

months and months to read through these scientific articles. 05:16.600 --> 05:24.822 [SPEAKER_03]: But what it did was, although my body was physically locked in a prison cell, my mind was freely roaming around the human cell. 05:24.862 --> 05:26.242 [SPEAKER_03]: And in that way, I was free. 05:27.082 --> 05:52.186 [SPEAKER_03]: and so this mentor really started and encouraged me to continue my education and when it was finally time for me to be released he and some others helped me put together a number of applications to continue my education it took months and months to put these together and almost immediately as I pressed submit just rejection after rejection after rejection after rejection I got rejected from every single place because I had to check the box and 05:52.606 --> 05:57.167 [SPEAKER_03]: being, you know, having a criminal conviction, except for St. Louis University. 05:57.207 --> 06:01.428 [SPEAKER_03]: So I got in the St. Louis University through the help of this mentor who's on the admissions committee. 06:01.828 --> 06:08.770 [SPEAKER_03]: I completed my MBA and PhD simultaneously at the top of my class, and then moved on to these places like Hopkins, Howard, and Perial. 06:09.651 --> 06:10.971 [SPEAKER_03]: And when I got out, I got out. 06:12.211 --> 06:27.834 [SPEAKER_03]: My mom, you know, seeing that I had made this transformation, she was very adamant about, you know, so she shared with me when I got out that the entire time that I was in every single night, she cried herself to sleep. 06:28.554 --> 06:38.897 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, she was just praying that, you know, her son, her youngest son, comes back to her, because, you know, prison is obviously a volatile, you know, for, not obvious, but is a volatile, 06:41.374 --> 06:44.516 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, she wanted me to put all of this behind me. 06:45.257 --> 06:48.099 [SPEAKER_03]: And I did that for a good portion of time. 06:49.960 --> 06:55.784 [SPEAKER_03]: And eventually, those words that she shared with me were some of her last words. 06:55.824 --> 06:58.226 [SPEAKER_03]: So years had gone by since I got out. 06:58.666 --> 07:06.532 [SPEAKER_03]: I had, you know, I was now at Johns Hopkins, then to Howard, and I ended up starting a nonprofit, 07:07.152 --> 07:08.653 [SPEAKER_03]: and sharing my story. 07:08.793 --> 07:10.954 [SPEAKER_03]: I know this is a longer answer than that, no, no. 07:11.474 --> 07:19.958 [SPEAKER_03]: But so I was finally following the guidance of my mom, because I wasn't really doing that much as a teenager. 07:20.319 --> 07:23.700 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what kind of got me into making leading into prison. 07:24.080 --> 07:27.122 [SPEAKER_03]: But I was listening to her and I was not going to share my story. 07:27.142 --> 07:29.183 [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to try to put prison behind me. 07:30.119 --> 07:49.967 [SPEAKER_03]: But then eventually some things happen such as the events in Ferguson around Mike Brown and the events

in Baltimore around Freddie Gray and I started getting involved in some of those activities and I started working with Marilyn Mosby and then got introduced to Elijah Cummings and they encouraged me that I need to share my story. 07:50.367 --> 07:55.651 [SPEAKER_03]: So I ended up on the encouragement of the late Elijah Cummings, sharing my story on the hill. 07:56.071 --> 08:00.714 [SPEAKER_03]: And my story got picked up by the Washington Post and in PR, then PBS and a bunch of others. 08:00.754 --> 08:08.039 [SPEAKER_03]: And I ended up starting a nonprofit to help people who've been to prison in the whole time every single one of these articles that came out. 08:08.539 --> 08:09.540 [SPEAKER_03]: My mom was just like, 08:11.623 --> 08:13.144 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, why are you sharing your story? 08:13.164 --> 08:19.049 [SPEAKER_03]: She just didn't quite think it was the right thing for me to do to be telling my story so publicly. 08:19.609 --> 08:34.901 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, a lot of stories come out over the course of five years or so, and it was the phrase that he just mentioned was actually at the point my mom was nearing the last days of her life. 08:35.482 --> 08:39.125 [SPEAKER_03]: And at this particular time, she was at an assisted living facility where 08:39.665 --> 08:44.532 [SPEAKER_03]: She wasn't able to really talk, so she wasn't talking at all at this time. 08:44.652 --> 08:56.287 [SPEAKER_03]: I had just gotten out of running a putting together a conference around criminal legal system and bringing together a bunch of people to the St. Louis for this convention and I was exhausted. 08:56.787 --> 09:06.709 [SPEAKER_03]: And so, instead of going out and doing more conference stuff, I went and I just laid in bed with my mom at the assisted living and just wanted to get some time with her because I was living away from her. 09:07.469 --> 09:12.010 [SPEAKER_03]: And she started talking to me very clearly and she hadn't been talking at all. 09:13.530 --> 09:19.171 [SPEAKER_03]: And she just, I was kind of telling her how tired and exhausted I was and why I was doing this. 09:19.191 --> 09:24.312 [SPEAKER_03]: I have two, I have a young daughter, seven-year-old daughter, four-year-old son, and a wife and I was away from them. 09:24.712 --> 09:25.132 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was just, 09:25.612 --> 09:30.937 [SPEAKER_03]: kind of talking, not expecting her to say anything, and just how tired I was at doing this work. 09:31.698 --> 09:38.384 [SPEAKER_03]: And she very clearly said to me, in BMP T-T-Win, Sis Abundaya, to Manila Pufet. 09:39.265 --> 09:43.929 [SPEAKER_03]: And again, the translation is, well, my son, this is what God brought you here to do. 09:44.990 --> 09:53.617 [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, one, it was super clear like the words were clearer than she had ever been saying in the past couple of days. 09:54.218 --> 10:01.524 [SPEAKER_03]: But then I was also looking at her like, you can tell me that I need to not talk about this. 10:02.545 --> 10:09.050 [SPEAKER_03]: And she went on to say that there were some people waiting for my dad had passed, of course, while I was incarcerated. 10:09.831 --> 10:12.253 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was literally, you know, this 10:15.030 --> 10:19.345 [SPEAKER_03]: the other side and she was telling me that this is what I was brought here to do. 10:20.830 --> 10:27.172 [SPEAKER_07]: So I have to say, I've read in the last four years, 200, and something books. 10:27.812 --> 10:30.692 [SPEAKER_07]: And this was one of the few books that made me cry. 10:31.392 --> 10:36.274 [SPEAKER_07]: And it made me also read your prison cells to PhD. 10:36.454 --> 10:38.594 [SPEAKER_07]: It's never too late to do good. 10:39.154 --> 10:40.115 [SPEAKER_07]: And I want to talk about this. 10:40.175 --> 10:42.215 [SPEAKER_07]: It's never too late to do good. 10:42.235 --> 10:47.876 [SPEAKER_07]: Because that's thematic in this breaking chains, building future. 10:47.916 --> 10:49.277 [SPEAKER_07]: So give us a little bit about that. 10:50.917 --> 10:53.821 [SPEAKER_07]: three core issues that you're addressing the book. 10:54.441 --> 11:10.119 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so this book breaking chains building futures, the story that I just shared, I share a little bit more about that in the opening chapter and the book is dedicated to my mom who, of course, passed just a couple of days after telling me that. 11:11.078 --> 11:16.303 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, my first book was, uh, from prison cells to PhD, it's never too late to do good. 11:16.784 --> 11:28.695 [SPEAKER_03]: That book I dedicated to my father, and, um, when I was making all these poor decisions that led me to looking at 20 years of life and getting since the 10 years in prison. 11:29.296 --> 11:36.104 [SPEAKER_03]: My father again, you know, I spoke Creole to my family and my father and mother until their last days. 11:36.124 --> 11:45.175 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, my father used to tell this phrase to me, and the phrase in Creole is, El Nais Jean-Papa, to a top who fed me up. 11:45.956 --> 12:00.258 [SPEAKER_03]: and uh... the translation of that is it is never too late to do good so out you know from a teenager i'd be making these poor decisions and he just always tell me that it was you know as a teenager i'm like all right dad like i need to i need to leave and okay whatever 12:01.339 --> 12:25.932 [SPEAKER_03]: And it wasn't until you know sitting in prison and of course going through the moment of losing him that I started to understand what he was actually saying So the phrase literally translates as it is never too late to do good, but his meaning that he had been trying to tell me is that it's never too late to reach your full potential And it's never too late to bring good to yourself others and your community 12:26.612 --> 12:43.216 [SPEAKER_03]: And what at the root of that, what it says is that he had this deep level of patience, because I know, and I now, you know, hopefully I'll have the opportunity

to tell you a little bit about the work that we do, where we help, we've now helped thousands of currently and formerly incarcerated men and women from all across the country. 12:44.096 --> 12:48.357 [SPEAKER_03]: And I know all too well that many of their families abandon them. 12:48.497 --> 12:48.617 [SPEAKER_03]: But 12:49.337 --> 13:00.715 [SPEAKER_03]: what he was saying is that he had this patient and this compassion that he truly believed that although I was making these really poor decisions that it was not too late for me. 13:01.181 --> 13:10.849 [SPEAKER_03]: and that he believed in the possibility of change, and that he believed that one day I would believe in that, and I would see the potential that I had. 13:11.430 --> 13:26.203 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's such a, you know, he was, of course, telling that to me, but my first book, I dedicate the book to him, and that message, I want to send his message to the world, and to the criminal legal system, particularly here in the United States, that 13:26.803 --> 13:29.604 [SPEAKER_03]: goes very far from believing that statement. 13:30.004 --> 13:36.326 [SPEAKER_03]: And the reason I could say that the criminal legal system is very far from seeing it in that way. 13:36.686 --> 13:49.351 [SPEAKER_03]: There's if we had just an inkling of seeing it that way, we would never sentence people to 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years, life sentence, double life sentence, triple life sentence. 13:49.711 --> 13:53.812 [SPEAKER_03]: Like if you die and somehow get reincarnated, 13:57.077 --> 13:59.378 [SPEAKER_03]: and a cage for the rest of your life, right? 13:59.638 --> 14:00.879 [SPEAKER_03]: That's a double life sentence. 14:01.459 --> 14:04.521 [SPEAKER_03]: Like why do I need a double life sentence, right? 14:04.941 --> 14:10.304 [SPEAKER_03]: So they don't believe that you could change in this life or another life, right? 14:10.364 --> 14:12.285 [SPEAKER_03]: So we don't believe in change. 14:13.626 --> 14:28.038 [SPEAKER_03]: And the thing that I learned is that there are such brilliant minds, like we literally are missing out on talent, we're literally missing out on the next innovation that can cure cancer. 14:28.458 --> 14:34.683 [SPEAKER_03]: The work that I do, so I'm an endocrinologist scientist, as I mentioned, some people are like, what is that? 14:35.003 --> 14:36.885 [SPEAKER_03]: So I study hormones and I have, 14:37.345 --> 14:39.247 [SPEAKER_03]: one of my hormone colleagues here with me. 14:39.367 --> 14:40.287 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for showing up. 14:40.728 --> 14:42.709 [SPEAKER_03]: The Endocrine Society is one of the largest. 14:42.789 --> 14:44.651 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a board member of the Endocrine Society. 14:45.151 --> 14:46.352 [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you for showing up. 14:46.472 --> 14:54.718 [SPEAKER_03]: But as an endocrineologist, I study hormones and particularly I study diabetes and a condition called polycystic ovarian syndrome. 14:55.139 --> 14:59.102 [SPEAKER_03]: Just recently through the work that I do in the community that I'm part of, 14:59.930 --> 15:03.713 [SPEAKER_03]: PCOS is a condition, it's a leading cause of female infertility. 15:04.054 --> 15:06.255 [SPEAKER_03]: They end up developing type 2 diabetes. 15:06.676 --> 15:19.567 [SPEAKER_03]: Through the work of my lab, we've contributed to changing the name of PCOS to something called polyindicrin metabolic ovarian syndrome. 15:19.707 --> 15:22.689 [SPEAKER_03]: And it sounds kind of like, OK, like, what does that mean? 15:22.709 --> 15:25.392 [SPEAKER_03]: That change will likely impact 15:26.277 --> 15:27.922 [SPEAKER_03]: millions of people around the world. 15:27.982 --> 15:31.251 [SPEAKER_03]: PCOS is heavily underdiagnosed because of the 15:32.760 --> 15:33.801 [SPEAKER_03]: incorrect name. 15:34.741 --> 15:39.843 [SPEAKER_03]: And I say all that to say that, you know, I could have been sentenced to life and prison. 15:40.483 --> 15:49.006 [SPEAKER_03]: And the contributions that I've made to this thing that will impact the millions of women across the world, we would have missed out on that. 15:49.626 --> 15:55.968 [SPEAKER_03]: And how many other people are we missing out on by not believing that it is never too late to do good? 15:56.468 --> 16:09.780 [SPEAKER_07]: You know, in the sentencing where you got your 10-year sentence, the transcript has the prosecutor calling you irredeemable, which I had to look up, and it says, no hope for change. 16:10.360 --> 16:20.870 [SPEAKER_07]: So this book is testament to that prosecutors' misperception of the reality of the person he was recommending the sentence in his allocation. 16:21.190 --> 16:21.450 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes. 16:21.510 --> 16:21.770 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes. 16:21.911 --> 16:23.532 [SPEAKER_07]: So I want to turn to the book. 16:24.032 --> 16:33.599 [SPEAKER_07]: The book has three parts with case studies of people who like yourself have moved on an interesting journey. 16:34.119 --> 16:38.743 [SPEAKER_07]: The first is systemic issues, then resilience, and then education and mentorship. 16:38.763 --> 16:43.326 [SPEAKER_07]: So I want to read you sentence you wrote in the book on the systemic issues part of it. 16:43.426 --> 16:45.667 [SPEAKER_07]: You write that 16:46.548 --> 17:02.819 [SPEAKER_07]: This person who we're going to talk about, Oswald Newballed, that his narrative serves as testament to the boundless potential that lies within all of us to rebuild, redefine, and reclaim our futures. 17:03.099 --> 17:06.881 [SPEAKER_07]: So, tell us about Oswald and why you wrote that sentence. 17:07.842 --> 17:14.026 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, and I should give a quick introduction as well to the second book. 17:14.046 --> 17:19.269 [SPEAKER_03]: So from the first book, which I believe both books are available today. 17:20.310 --> 17:22.231 [SPEAKER_03]: From the first book, I had 17:23.732 --> 17:43.768 [SPEAKER_03]: a publicist where I was doing a number of speaking engagements and a number of podcasts

and from one of the podcasts that I did a publisher reached out and that publisher is widely who's the publisher of the second book, Breaking Chains Building Futures that we're here speaking about and he was usually when I you know do these engagements and I'm the 17:43.988 --> 18:04.586 [SPEAKER_03]: various podcasts and what we'll eventually move into in this next half of our conversation is I talk about all the amazing people that we've helped through the organization that I co-founded which is also shares the name of the first book from prison cells to PhD and we run a program called the Prison to Professional Scholars Program. 18:05.006 --> 18:05.147 [SPEAKER_03]: So 18:05.807 --> 18:16.010 [SPEAKER_03]: I was talking about the work that we do through the nonprofit, which, again, over the course of the past nine years, not profit has been around for nine years now. 18:16.230 --> 18:31.274 [SPEAKER_03]: We've helped over 3,000 currently and formerly incarcerated men and women from all across the country, and we've helped them get into higher education as what we do, and we really help and focus on helping them get into career paths that they thought weren't possible for them. 18:31.614 --> 18:46.670 [SPEAKER_03]: So we help a lot of people get into STEM career paths from we have folks completing PhDs in Astrophysics to going into medical school to getting STEM degrees to getting nursing nurse anesthesiologists and so 18:47.771 --> 19:04.038 [SPEAKER_03]: Wiley calls up and says this is the work that you're doing is amazing we want you to write a book telling about these amazing stories of all the men and women that you've you know you've helped overcome this challenge of incarceration 19:04.658 --> 19:08.639 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, okay, let's see the numbers and I mean, that looks pretty good. 19:09.019 --> 19:23.883 [SPEAKER_03]: But one thing though, I actually don't want to write a book about someone else, because the reason I wrote my first book was as I mentioned, Washington Post and PR PBS, a bunch of these, you know, folks came and wrote stories about me. 19:24.323 --> 19:25.384 [SPEAKER_03]: And every time it was, 19:27.584 --> 19:39.308 [SPEAKER_03]: There's only maybe a few that I was really disappointed in, but all of them included, I would usually say things like, I don't like to refer to myself as a criminal or convict. 19:39.628 --> 19:41.288 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a formerly incarcerated person. 19:41.688 --> 19:47.970 [SPEAKER_03]: And then one of them, the title was, ex-convict turned into chronologists. 19:48.050 --> 19:54.352 [SPEAKER_03]: I said, that is the exact word that I told you not to use, and you use it as the first word, 19:55.422 --> 19:58.581 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I very clear I understand that 19:59.825 --> 20:02.747 [SPEAKER_03]: we need to be the authors of our own narrative. 20:02.767 --> 20:05.329 [SPEAKER_03]: So I asked Wiley, I said, this sounds great. 20:05.629 --> 20:11.193 [SPEAKER_03]: I think the world needs this, but actually, I want them to write their own stories. 20:11.573 --> 20:22.860 [SPEAKER_03]: So I write the introduction to each of the chapters, and I write the introduction in outro to the book, but it is the actual people that wrote their own chapters. 20:23.321 --> 20:29.205 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what we did at this particular point in time, we had had about 750 people had gone through the program, 20:29.925 --> 20:38.408 [SPEAKER_03]: We put out a call of call for applications, call for authors, and we got about 75 applications and we selected 13 authors. 20:39.428 --> 20:45.571 [SPEAKER_03]: And the process of selecting those authors, we wanted it to be diverse in how they ended up. 20:47.051 --> 21:11.105 [SPEAKER_03]: entering the criminal legal system and the things we wanted to be diverse and the things that they're doing since their criminal legal system involvement and of course for all of them we help them since their criminal legal system involvement find what it is that they do and then as was just mentioned we then divided the book up into these parts where the first part is on systemic challenges that we face in our society 21:16.608 --> 21:27.658 [SPEAKER_03]: such a classic, you know, is such a traumatic, but all to common complication that we that we see in our society. 21:27.678 --> 21:31.802 [SPEAKER_03]: So Oswald was sentenced. 21:31.902 --> 21:37.007 [SPEAKER_03]: He was one of those folks that I was just mentioning about Oswald at 18 years old. 21:38.588 --> 21:44.793 [SPEAKER_03]: was sentenced to two life sentences in the Florida Department of Corrections. 21:45.433 --> 21:57.323 [SPEAKER_03]: And in Florida life means life, that's the actual phrase that they use in the criminal legal system because in a state like Missouri, when they were sentencing me, it was 20 to life. 21:57.803 --> 22:02.687 [SPEAKER_03]: I could serve 20 years, or potentially they could keep adding on more time until they felt that it was 22:03.007 --> 22:05.229 [SPEAKER_03]: you know, they felt they wanted to release me. 22:05.910 --> 22:09.654 [SPEAKER_03]: But in Florida, life means life, and he got two life sentences. 22:10.915 --> 22:18.584 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was an individual that came from a challenging upbringing in terms of a single parent, mother. 22:19.024 --> 22:30.749 [SPEAKER_03]: who was experiencing challenges of her own, and eventually end up getting sentenced to two life sentences in his 18 years old. 22:31.509 --> 22:41.453 [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the stories that he shares is about how that journey systemically started when he was in about preschool. 22:42.313 --> 22:47.596 [SPEAKER_03]: And he remembers that teachers always kind of saw him 22:49.096 --> 23:07.620 [SPEAKER_03]: And he remembers that, you know, by I believe that he started seeing that they were seeing him differently and in third grade, he ends up failing a class that he knew that he knew he had passed. 23:08.320 --> 23:27.213 [SPEAKER_03]:

And he went and tried to change the letter grade on his report card and it got discovered and his mom actually goes back up to the school and says there's no way that my son got this grade I'm looking at his work and she's the teacher says well, it doesn't matter for you know a person like him 23:28.053 --> 23:38.537 [SPEAKER_03]: He's not going to end up going anywhere, anyway, where he's going to end up is likely prison, is essentially what she was saying. 23:38.597 --> 23:47.020 [SPEAKER_03]: Since that time, he was all very bright, but he just turned off this idea that school was something for him. 23:47.040 --> 23:53.982 [SPEAKER_03]: Then just eventually led to making a number of poor decisions that ends up finding himself 23:55.903 --> 23:57.483 [SPEAKER_03]: a double-life sentence at 18. 23:57.963 --> 24:04.445 [SPEAKER_07]: And he writes in his narrative that no amount of preparation can fully equip someone for the marginalism. 24:04.685 --> 24:04.945 [SPEAKER_07]: Sorry. 24:05.245 --> 24:20.688 [SPEAKER_07]: He writes, no amount of preparation can fully equip someone for the marginalization and systemic barriers faced during and after incarceration, social, psychological and legal, which is telling because that's true. 24:21.188 --> 24:36.289 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, and he there's a number of challenges that you know he explains in the early parts of his incarceration and it wasn't until 24:37.310 --> 24:44.779 [SPEAKER_03]: a little bit later that he encountered education that really started to change his path on the inside. 24:45.600 --> 24:56.192 [SPEAKER_03]: And he was fortunate enough to, as you'll, if you have the opportunity to read the book, which I encourage, of course, to read the book, he is offered the opportunity to get 24:57.933 --> 24:59.134 [SPEAKER_03]: life with parole. 24:59.675 --> 25:10.964 [SPEAKER_03]: And so he eventually gets his sentence changed to life with parole and after I believe a little over 20 years was released from prison. 25:12.277 --> 25:14.878 [SPEAKER_07]: The second chapter is resilience. 25:15.498 --> 25:25.160 [SPEAKER_07]: You write that Tommy Moore's story tells us the unique barriers that Tommy faced and is unwavering resolve to overcome them. 25:25.340 --> 25:32.202 [SPEAKER_07]: And you add that his work continues to inspire hope and transformation within the justice-impacted system. 25:32.462 --> 25:35.183 [SPEAKER_07]: And I have to say, I just love as a matter of, 25:36.443 --> 25:57.285 [SPEAKER_03]: language that we're talking about the criminal legal system yes because it is not a criminal justice system so very intentional about so yes you won't see it phrase and in the beginning we actually talk about why we use certain language and why language matters so you know there is 25:58.366 --> 26:06.635 [SPEAKER_03]: The idea of justice is not quite where we're at with that particular system, so we prefer to call it the criminal legal system. 26:07.296 --> 26:11.981 [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes you'll hear folks that are in our space call it the punishment system. 26:13.322 --> 26:18.227 [SPEAKER_03]: But so, yeah, Tommy's story is very... 26:19.388 --> 26:22.230 [SPEAKER_03]: It's very, all the stories obviously, it's spiring. 26:22.931 --> 26:25.773 [SPEAKER_03]: His really speaks to the aspect of resilience. 26:25.793 --> 26:30.937 [SPEAKER_03]: So he's in this part of the book where it's talking about resilience. 26:31.817 --> 26:34.640 [SPEAKER_03]: And so a little bit about Tommy. 26:35.460 --> 26:43.206 [SPEAKER_03]: So growing up, Tommy is from these, both of these individuals happen to be from Florida. 26:44.027 --> 26:45.348 [SPEAKER_03]: But growing up, 26:46.148 --> 27:04.620 [SPEAKER_03]: Tommy was sexually molested as a young child and it was, you know, it was around seven or eight years old all the way till he was about 13 or 14 and, you know, he didn't even know how to characterize it. 27:05.720 --> 27:20.207 [SPEAKER_03]: and didn't even, and it happened from a trusted person, you know, a person that the family trusted, and so he didn't quite know how to process that. 27:20.867 --> 27:31.190 [SPEAKER_03]: But what it resulted in is that by his early teenage years, he had began using substances and primarily drinking quite heavily. 27:32.270 --> 27:44.433 [SPEAKER_03]: And in his early 20s, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison for vehicular manslaughter from being behind the wheel drinking. 27:45.493 --> 28:00.570 [SPEAKER_03]: and you know he really it wasn't until he got to prison really that he started to unpack up you know what had happened to him as a child and how that really led into his aspects of 28:01.351 --> 28:08.537 [SPEAKER_03]: substance use and drinking, and eventually led to the decision that led to him being incarcerated. 28:09.137 --> 28:17.264 [SPEAKER_03]: So he does his 12 years, he gets out, and by this time he had gone through a lot of programming, he had gone through a lot of change. 28:17.704 --> 28:27.572 [SPEAKER_03]: One of the things in this idea of it's never too late to do good, one of the things that we constantly tell you throughout these various stories is that most of them 28:28.795 --> 28:32.197 [SPEAKER_03]: understood most of them had got including myself. 28:32.757 --> 28:36.038 [SPEAKER_03]: I had gone through the epiphany long before they had gotten out. 28:36.098 --> 28:43.422 [SPEAKER_03]: So we're keeping people in long before or you know long after the change actually happens. 28:43.482 --> 28:51.886 [SPEAKER_03]: So you know this epiphany had happened and he was you know wasn't using anymore, wasn't drinking, he hasn't you know since he's been out, you know he's been cleaning 28:52.766 --> 29:13.112 [SPEAKER_03]: before he was in prison and so he gets out and he wants to turn his life around and he actually he actually Googles, he gets to the stage in his life and he wants to pursue a PhD and he Googles how can someone with the criminal conviction obtain a PhD?

29:13.578 --> 29:19.843 [SPEAKER_03]: And then that's how we found me in our organization and he eventually started getting connected with us and we started providing them services. 29:20.584 --> 29:28.131 [SPEAKER_03]: And when he got out, he was the collateral consequences of incarceration. 29:29.151 --> 29:31.654 [SPEAKER_03]: He couldn't leave his county. 29:32.054 --> 29:40.081 [SPEAKER_03]: So he went to a community college in his local area, and of course, because of his crime, 29:41.682 --> 29:46.405 [SPEAKER_03]: he is not able, he was not able to drive for 10 years even after he got out of prison. 29:46.865 --> 29:47.885 [SPEAKER_03]: So he couldn't drive. 29:48.506 --> 30:00.112 [SPEAKER_03]: And so to get to the community college and by this time he's in his like mid-30s or so and he's went back to school, he went to community college and he would ride his bike and it's in Florida. 30:00.532 --> 30:01.533 [SPEAKER_03]: And so you can imagine. 30:02.034 --> 30:26.427 [SPEAKER_03]: like by the time he got to school, he was like drenched in sweat and he'd come into the classroom with these 18 or 19 year olds and they'd be like Tommy why are you always like so sweaty and stinky did you just come from the gym and he'd like yeah you know I was playing ball in the gym to try to you know hide this this mark on him right so he did that for two years he wrote his bike for nearly an hour one way and an hour the other way 30:26.867 --> 30:52.701 [SPEAKER_03]: to get his associate's degree and then to get he still can't drive and the only college that he bachelor's degree school that he was able to get into was about three hours away from bus ride so he had to take three hours bus ride one way to go to school take another three hours bus ride back home and he did that for two years about two and a 30:56.773 --> 31:15.128 [SPEAKER_03]: he ends up coming into our organization and wants to do his PhD and he eventually applies to get his PhD in business and we help him get into school, he did a three-year online course because he was kind of done with 31:15.648 --> 31:17.489 [SPEAKER_03]: all the bike rides and bus rides. 31:17.509 --> 31:33.220 [SPEAKER_03]: So he's got an online PhD in business and then ends up starting a nonprofit to help other formerly incarcerated people and started counseling really around folks that have endured physical and sexual violence. 31:33.820 --> 31:35.162 [SPEAKER_03]: you see why the book made me cry. 31:35.743 --> 31:49.603 [SPEAKER_07]: So he writes, he writes, of himself, that prison taught him, that freedom is a spiritual state, not merely a physical one, and this allowed me him writing. 31:50.103 --> 31:58.106 [SPEAKER_07]: to witness and confirm that my circumstances do not define me, and perhaps most importantly, he adds, to anyone feeling hopeless. 31:58.627 --> 32:02.928 [SPEAKER_07]: I want to emphasize that your past does not define your future. 32:03.369 --> 32:07.750 [SPEAKER_07]: Let resilience, education, and mentorship be your guide. 32:08.051 --> 32:08.291 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes. 32:08.391 --> 32:08.951 [SPEAKER_07]: Wonderful. 32:09.071 --> 32:09.831 [SPEAKER_07]: Wonderful. 32:10.652 --> 32:11.072 [SPEAKER_07]: The last 32:12.293 --> 32:15.075 [SPEAKER_07]: The last section is education and mentorship. 32:16.516 --> 32:25.402 [SPEAKER_07]: William Freeman is the subject that we're going to, of this chapter that I want to focus on, is the person in this chapter that we're going to focus on. 32:25.422 --> 32:32.668 [SPEAKER_07]: And you write that his story is testament to resistance to the power of community. 32:33.308 --> 32:46.738 [SPEAKER_07]: the necessity of dismantling the structures that perpetuate inequality, that he is living proof, that liberation and success are possible even in the face of systemic oppression. 32:47.239 --> 32:48.780 [SPEAKER_07]: So tell us about William. 32:49.140 --> 32:59.506 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so William's story and this last part of the book includes two individuals that you know have have a unique experience. 32:59.987 --> 33:10.553 [SPEAKER_03]: So Oswald, as I mentioned, got two life sentences, what I forgot to mention is that it was for crimes that, you know, no individual lost their life. 33:11.754 --> 33:17.578 [SPEAKER_03]: So he got two life sentences for not, you know, any crime that no one lost their life. 33:19.678 --> 33:25.680 [SPEAKER_03]: And so Williams was sentenced to life sentence here in Maryland. 33:25.760 --> 33:36.422 [SPEAKER_03]: He's from Baltimore City and sentenced to life in prison for an altercation that ended up someone lost their life. 33:49.285 --> 34:00.250 [SPEAKER_03]: on a bet, so he had a life sentence without the possibility for parole, so he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison. 34:00.890 --> 34:15.116 [SPEAKER_03]: And so he was as a lot of folks that have that type of sentence kind of early on, not really focused on change much, and it was kind of later in his incarceration that change 34:18.334 --> 34:31.518 [SPEAKER_03]: And it was on a bet that, you know, he can't, he's not smart enough to get a college degree that he applied to a school that had just came in. 34:31.878 --> 34:44.862 [SPEAKER_03]: So I should also mention that in 1990, so in our country, we have had this progressive amount of incarceration since the war on drugs 34:47.923 --> 35:08.752 [SPEAKER_03]: the incarceration rate continued to climb on into the Clinton it actually was at its highest and the Clinton crime bill of 1994 did things like it increased the punishment of crack cocaine compared to powder cocaine and it did a lot of things that 35:09.219 --> 35:15.624 [SPEAKER_03]: highly increased incarceration, but what it also did was it removed pelgrance from inside prison. 35:15.904 --> 35:20.988 [SPEAKER_03]: So before 1994, there were hundreds of colleges offering programs inside prison. 35:21.028 --> 35:25.152 [SPEAKER_03]: People were getting associates, bachelor's, even

doctorate degrees inside prison. 35:25.172 --> 35:27.774 [SPEAKER_03]: And then in 1994, all of that went away. 35:28.234 --> 35:35.240 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, myself and many other people that we talked about in this book were incarcerated in a time where it really was the punishment system. 35:35.280 --> 35:42.765 [SPEAKER_03]: They literally took out the opportunity to get educated and make, you know, become C.C. 35:42.846 --> 35:47.249 [SPEAKER_03]: this broadening of perspective and it was really just warehousing in punishment. 35:47.569 --> 35:52.433 [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, William was in that state of, I'm just being warehousing this is punishment, 35:56.396 --> 36:19.911 [SPEAKER_03]: uh... the obama administration did something called second chance pro and it brought back pelgrance and so he made this bet that somebody thought he wasn't smart enough he said i could get a college degree so he applies and this is at about uh... this is at close to twenty years and incarcerated at this point and he applies to get a uh... to get into galtre prison education partnership and he didn't make it in 36:20.651 --> 36:29.899 [SPEAKER_03]: but he actually snuck into the director's room and kind of shared a story and said that I really want to do this. 36:29.979 --> 36:30.860 [SPEAKER_03]: I know that I could do this. 36:30.880 --> 36:36.304 [SPEAKER_03]: She let him in and he ends up being the most brilliant student in all of the program. 36:36.965 --> 36:42.109 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a professor that is this you know, world renowned professor 36:42.990 --> 36:51.837 [SPEAKER_03]: So, Goucher actually, like, pulls professors from all over, this world-ordown professor was just completely enthralled by his intelligence and brilliance in the conversations that he had. 36:52.377 --> 36:57.241 [SPEAKER_03]: And this professor is a lawyer with some some pool. 36:57.641 --> 37:06.288 [SPEAKER_03]: He goes and tells the judge that you need to change this person's sentence where this person needs to be out in society. 37:07.140 --> 37:33.230 [SPEAKER_03]: and so on the strength of the program vouching for him this professor vouching for him the judge overturns the life without parole to life with parole he goes before the parole board on his very first time in his released and so this really speaks this chapter he then gets released he comes into our program we then help connect him to getting into Johns Hopkins 37:33.730 --> 37:43.282 [SPEAKER_03]: public school of public health, where he seems to be completing his master's in public health and is, you know, is a leader in the nation on higher education in prison. 37:43.763 --> 37:51.853 [SPEAKER_07]: You interviewed him in the book, and you asked him, what accomplishment are you most proud of? 37:52.413 --> 38:01.100 [SPEAKER_07]: since your interaction with the system and his answer was I am most proud of defying the expectations that society placed on me. 38:01.420 --> 38:11.288 [SPEAKER_07]: Yes, which is a wonderful sort of final thought as we open it to questions otherwise we can keep talking for another hour or two. 38:20.415 --> 38:20.735 [SPEAKER_07]: Okay. 38:22.040 --> 38:24.281 [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Dr. Andrews, this is really moving. 38:24.301 --> 38:27.503 [SPEAKER_05]: I'm going to remember this forever. 38:27.743 --> 38:39.788 [SPEAKER_05]: You would mention Pilgrant, if you don't mind my asking, when you are getting your PhD training, and in your subsequent work and research, are there agencies that have helped you have supported that training or research? 38:39.808 --> 38:46.191 [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm asking because the agencies that are supposed to find young scientists from all backgrounds and bring them up. 38:46.491 --> 38:48.172 [SPEAKER_05]: They're under incredible pressure right now. 38:48.372 --> 38:59.057 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's a great question, so the mentor, I didn't get any of those training opportunities during my training. 38:59.117 --> 39:03.099 [SPEAKER_03]: I was supported from my mentor who vouched for me as I mentioned. 39:03.119 --> 39:07.601 [SPEAKER_03]: I got rejected from every other place except for the one that he was at at St. Louis University. 39:07.621 --> 39:12.003 [SPEAKER_03]: So I didn't, but I actually, I run a program 39:13.283 --> 39:34.536 [SPEAKER_03]: that is funded by the National Institutes of Health, number one funders by medical and science research in the world, and it's a 45-year long program that has been around to train black and brown underrepresented scientists, and it's produced some of the most incredible, you know, some of our prestigious black and brown scientists in our country today have come through this program. 39:35.597 --> 39:40.840 [SPEAKER_03]: And so I was, as a leader of it, as a PI, I have a grant, 39:41.280 --> 39:51.650 [SPEAKER_03]: that it is the first of its kind in this 45-year history that works with currently and formerly incarcerated individuals to move them into STEM degrees and STEM professions. 39:51.710 --> 39:55.935 [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, that was actually cut by Doge this past year. 39:56.235 --> 40:01.180 [SPEAKER_03]: In the whole 45-year, over 50 programs across the country was cut. 40:02.362 --> 40:07.243 [SPEAKER_04]: Well, I first wanted to say thank you for all the work you do, turning your passion and purpose into helping others. 40:07.303 --> 40:08.224 [SPEAKER_04]: So thank you for that. 40:08.384 --> 40:08.924 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. 40:09.164 --> 40:25.889 [SPEAKER_04]: The question I had was, what recommendations do you have for either a grassroots movement or for local legislators, whether it's county-wide statewide, what programming and what things they can do to make a difference in this area? 40:26.645 --> 40:27.886 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, that's a great question. 40:27.946 --> 40:44.076 [SPEAKER_03]: So I currently sit, I live in Baltimore City, so I'm a Maryland resident, and I sit on the task force that was

created to create a reentry division within the governor's office. 40:44.416 --> 40:54.763 [SPEAKER_03]: So there would be, it would remove right now reentry and reentry dollars are allocated to the department of corrections, and we really feel that it needs to be more 40:56.264 --> 40:59.227 [SPEAKER_03]: We think that those closest to the problem or closest to the solution. 40:59.267 --> 41:01.989 [SPEAKER_03]: So we really want those dollars to be in the hands of community. 41:02.409 --> 41:05.652 [SPEAKER_03]: And people like myself that are directly impacted. 41:06.833 --> 41:23.908 [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a lot of effort I would say to re-entry efforts that align with putting resources and support in the hands of the community and the hands of directly impacted people is what legislators and what this current effort is doing now, this task force. 41:26.645 --> 41:34.714 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious, two things is the, did he ever converse to anything, gotten in touch with the prosecutor and why to put you away? 41:34.774 --> 41:36.195 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd never get out of a comment. 41:36.235 --> 41:38.538 [SPEAKER_03]: I was waiting for that to come and thank you for that. 41:39.099 --> 41:44.643 [SPEAKER_02]: And what is your mentor was that person within the criminal justice system? 41:44.683 --> 41:46.845 [SPEAKER_03]: Was it outside or how did you do that? 41:46.905 --> 41:47.806 [SPEAKER_03]: Two great questions. 41:48.426 --> 41:50.508 [SPEAKER_03]: So for the first question with the prosecutor. 41:50.528 --> 41:56.172 [SPEAKER_03]: So when I got out, I invited the prosecutor to my dissertation. 41:56.192 --> 41:59.335 [SPEAKER_03]: I invited her to my graduation. 41:59.935 --> 42:01.656 [SPEAKER_03]: I invited her to my wedding. 42:02.552 --> 42:13.736 [SPEAKER_03]: When the first book was published, I hand delivered a signed copy to our office and she denied all of those offers to engage. 42:13.896 --> 42:14.536 [SPEAKER_07]: Did you sign it? 42:14.556 --> 42:15.436 [SPEAKER_07]: It would be remotely. 42:18.677 --> 42:27.400 [SPEAKER_03]: And the mentor was not who's a white male professor and not involved in the criminal legal system. 42:27.460 --> 42:30.601 [SPEAKER_03]: Just saw something and saw something in me. 42:32.575 --> 42:38.437 [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I just want to thank you for sharing a little bit about your, you know, past with your family and lost your family. 42:38.657 --> 42:40.337 [SPEAKER_06]: I recently lost both my parents. 42:40.617 --> 42:50.239 [SPEAKER_06]: So I just wanted to hear your perspective on how you got through grief, that grief, and maybe how it changed your perspective and formed your, what you want to do? 42:50.319 --> 42:51.260 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think. 42:51.300 --> 42:59.161 [SPEAKER_03]: So as you both of my parents, I live by, you know, two words or phrases that they shared 43:02.182 --> 43:21.080 [SPEAKER_03]: But I think for me when I was incarcerated and I started reading all those scientific articles I didn't know it at the time, but I was occupying my mind from you know that that was actually my way of dealing with grief Partly because in prison you don't have the opportunity to really grieve the way you can on the outside in terms of 43:21.500 --> 43:34.731 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, crying is not something that you can do getting angry and punching or like hitting the wall and showing that anger could literally bring harm your way So I dove into learning about this as a grieving mechanism. 43:34.771 --> 43:42.577 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think You know occupying your mind is I mean is is a way to, you know, finding a passion 43:43.217 --> 43:47.818 [SPEAKER_03]: is a way to cope and kind of get your mind off of that situation. 43:48.498 --> 43:52.139 [SPEAKER_03]: So I know we have two minutes left, so maybe one or two more questions. 43:54.359 --> 43:54.779 [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. 43:54.819 --> 43:57.200 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much for your work on T.C.O.S. 43:57.820 --> 43:59.220 [SPEAKER_01]: That was, thank you for sharing that. 43:59.380 --> 44:02.540 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually saw an article on that very recently, the name change. 44:02.981 --> 44:05.081 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for telling your attention to that. 44:05.661 --> 44:08.502 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us more about what you're working on in your lab? 44:08.742 --> 44:11.122 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have future endeavors in that area? 44:11.454 --> 44:35.305 [SPEAKER_03]: yes so thank you for that appreciate the science question amongst the mostly criminal legal talk of the book and so yes my work I work to from the very moment that I started reading those scientific articles when I was incarcerated I was really intrigued at how the human cell works and how it becomes insulin resistant so I still study that to this day I study the 44:41.387 --> 44:43.208 [SPEAKER_03]: And that is the problem of a type 2 diabetic. 44:43.248 --> 44:44.289 [SPEAKER_03]: It's insulin resistance. 44:44.309 --> 44:47.232 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's particular cells, the liver muscle and fat. 44:47.652 --> 44:50.534 [SPEAKER_03]: So we are working with a pharmaceutical. 44:50.594 --> 45:05.145 [SPEAKER_03]: We discovered this mechanism that is unique to women with PCOS, that their insulin resistance comes about differently than other individuals that it's more related to diet and excessive intake of calories. 45:05.586 --> 45:07.367 [SPEAKER_03]: So we found this new mechanism. 45:07.427 --> 45:09.189 [SPEAKER_03]: And we're working with a pharmaceutical company 45:11.110 --> 45:23.056 [SPEAKER_03]: to target this, you know, one of the ways that I often share it is, you eat a meal, your blood glucose goes up, and subsequently, your insulin goes up, and then healthy individuals, insulin knocks at the door of muscle liver and fats. 45:23.116 --> 45:24.637 [SPEAKER_03]: As, hey, there's a bunch of glucose out here. 45:24.657 --> 45:27.918 [SPEAKER_03]: You mind taking it in, and a healthy cell

gladly does that. 45:28.138 --> 45:31.700 [SPEAKER_03]: And people experiencing insulin resistance, you eat a meal, blood glucose goes up. 45:32.260 --> 45:36.483 [SPEAKER_03]: The pancreas releases insulin, insulin goes up, insulin knocks on the door, 45:38.067 --> 45:41.429 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a party going on and they can't hear insulin knocking at the door. 45:41.749 --> 45:45.872 [SPEAKER_03]: So insulin starts like this police knock and starts banging and they still can't hear it. 45:46.312 --> 45:54.817 [SPEAKER_03]: And so what I investigate is who inside the party is making all the ruckus to where they can't hear insulin knocking on the door. 45:55.217 --> 45:58.379 [SPEAKER_03]: And we found who that person was and we've knocked them out. 45:59.079 --> 46:03.762 [SPEAKER_03]: And so we've got this drug that targeted particularly to the liver to knock it out. 46:03.842 --> 46:05.243 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I'm currently working on. 46:06.332 --> 46:26.270 [SPEAKER_07]: So one thing, in response to that question, and I something in response to your question, which is, so there's my first cousin, a doctor in Irvine, California, Feliz Scourge is, I think, the leading PCOS of women's physician in, and she's written a ton on PCOS. 46:26.290 --> 46:30.954 [SPEAKER_07]: So you're interested in following up on this GERSH Felices, a first name. 46:32.615 --> 46:34.576 [SPEAKER_07]: I loved the year of magical thinking. 46:34.696 --> 46:38.257 [SPEAKER_07]: It helped me through my parents' loss. 46:38.917 --> 46:44.299 [SPEAKER_07]: I want to say one thing also in this whole criminal legal system that we're talking about. 46:44.700 --> 46:51.802 [SPEAKER_07]: There's a book I did on my podcast, which is called Free Freed Man's Challenge by Robin Bernstein. 46:53.303 --> 46:55.824 [SPEAKER_07]: It's a wonderful book and it's relevant to this. 46:55.864 --> 46:56.644 [SPEAKER_07]: The last question. 47:03.262 --> 47:04.143 [SPEAKER_07]: All right. 47:04.283 --> 47:04.743 [SPEAKER_07]: All right. 47:05.204 --> 47:05.924 [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, I got it. 47:06.004 --> 47:06.465 [SPEAKER_07]: I got it. 47:07.345 --> 47:11.428 [SPEAKER_07]: So Brian Stevenson, he's the founder of the equal justice initiative. 47:11.448 --> 47:17.092 [SPEAKER_07]: He has a quote and it is the opposite of poverty is not wealth. 47:17.853 --> 47:18.533 [SPEAKER_07]: It's justice. 47:19.074 --> 47:20.155 [SPEAKER_07]: So take us out on that. 47:20.835 --> 47:25.758 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I think my thoughts on that is again to the phrases from my father. 47:26.279 --> 47:27.720 [SPEAKER_03]: It is never too late to do good. 47:27.800 --> 47:30.061 [SPEAKER_03]: It's never too late for a person who reached our potential. 47:30.662 --> 47:37.366 [SPEAKER_03]: We as a society and criminal legal system really need to understand that concept of change can happen. 47:37.787 --> 47:40.789 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's when true justice will prevail. 47:43.330 --> 47:43.991 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you everyone. 47:46.017 --> 47:58.920 [SPEAKER_07]: Join us next week when we'll be speaking with Andrew Graham Dixon about his new book Vermeer, a life lost in found, which is a groundbreaking study of the 17th century Dutch artist Johannes Vermeer. 48:00.181 --> 48:08.183 [SPEAKER_07]: That said, is produced by Compro and the Museum of Public Relations, and is a proud member of the MSW Media Network. 48:09.135 --> 48:10.756 [SPEAKER_07]: theme music by Sam Post. 48:11.436 --> 48:15.518 [SPEAKER_07]: Please address any comments to that said zeldon at gmail.com. 48:16.239 --> 48:23.702 [SPEAKER_07]: If you enjoy this podcast, please rate and review us on your favorite podcast app to help more people find us. 48:24.262 --> 48:26.103 [SPEAKER_07]: For that said, I'm Michael zeldon. 48:26.644 --> 48:28.745 [SPEAKER_00]: M.S.W. 48:28.925 --> 48:29.205 [SPEAKER_00]: Media