บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Pledge

this and hates movies that really uh are so uh so over the top violent and unpleasant. 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:58.639 But this movie actually I thought kind of worked, um, even with that that the terrible violence, in part because the story is told in reverse. 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:05.920 It's a revenge story in which the revenge happens at the beginning of the movie, and you go back in time to what happens before. 00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:18.240 And the movie opens with this almost like lovely scene between Bellucci and Cassell, who are married at the time, uh, in sort of in love, romantic, sort of um frolicking naked in bed. 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:22.319 It's such an interesting contrast with what happens in the rest of the film. 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:24.399 I I still don't even know what I think about it. 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:28.399 I'm curious if people who are listening today who watch this film, what they think about it. 00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:34.639 It's a movie that um that I don't recommend for the for the for the faded heart because as I said, the rape scene is just awful. 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.959 And what's interesting about the rape scene is that basically the camera is set up, it's one long shot. 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:45.360 And most of it's basically set in 14 different vignettes, all of them done in in one long shot. 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:47.920 And so this scene is done as one long shot. 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:56.079 The camera doesn't move and it shows the rape, and it is horrific, and it and at times I just couldn't, I couldn't, I had to look away, I couldn't watch. 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:09.040 Um, but it is uh it sort of forces you to uh, as you mentioned about history of violence, just think about the violence that occurs in a rape like this and and consider the consequences of it. 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.519 Um it it's uh it's an interesting movie. 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:13.680 I I'm not again, I'm not sure what I think about it. 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:20.079 I'm curious what others have to might say, but it is it is one that has stuck with me for a week or so since I saw it. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:29.120 Yes, I've I've seen a couple of his pictures, and while they didn't really sing for me, I could tell that he was an ambitious and transgressive filmmaker, which I appreciate. 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:35.040 And so I'm not sure I would really like this one, but I I I applaud the efforts along the way. 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:37.600 I I think I don't know that you would love this film. 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:38.560 I don't think you would love it. 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:40.879 I mean, again, as I said, you have to go in a sit-through. 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:43.120 It's not just, by the way, that awful scene. 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:50.079 There's an awful scene in the beginning of the film with the revenge, actually, um, that is also very difficult to sit through. 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:54.399 Uh, but it is um it is an

interesting, an interesting thought-compelling film. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.959 And one, again, as I said, like a lot of films like that, I tend to just recoil it and I hate them. 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:10.079 I remember Surat, a movie I saw last year that I absolutely despised, which had a a lot of really horrific violence, which felt like the violence was there more for shock value than for substance or storytelling. 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:14.560 This movie felt a little bit different uh as far as the shock moment of the film. 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.480 Yes, as always, I'm a case-by-case person on this. 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:26.480 The Isabelle Houpaire film, uh, Elle opens with a shocking and extended rape scene, and I think that's actually a brilliant and transgressive movie. 00:09:06.710 --> 00:09:13.350 Yeah, I I think you can make things that are unpleasant to witness, unpleasant to watch, and still, you know, be great cinema, obviously. 00:09:13.669 --> 00:09:19.509 Um, I also want to mention something, a bit of a uh this is just a reference to last week's episode of Mean Streets. 00:09:19.589 --> 00:09:23.990 Uh, the actor who played Mike was named uh Richard Romanis. 00:09:24.149 --> 00:09:31.990 I've been re-watching The Sopranos with my girlfriend, and we were watching uh season three and the very famous episode in which Dr. 00:09:32.149 --> 00:09:35.909 Melfi is assaulted, sexually assaulted, and she is with her ex-husband. 00:09:35.990 --> 00:09:44.230 And I realized, as watching this, that her ex-husband is the same character, same actor who played Mikey in Mean Streets, Richard Romanis. 00:09:44.309 --> 00:09:50.069 So I thought that was kind of an odd uh um coincidence that just happened to be after we watched Mean Street, if we saw him. 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:54.549 I was also struck by the fact that in Mean Streets he plays an Italian uh uh you know mobster. 00:09:54.709 --> 00:10:02.469 In The Sopranos, he plays Melfi's ex-husband, who is actually also this kind of uh voice for Italian Americans, always speaking up for them. 00:10:02.549 --> 00:10:05.029 So I looked up Richard Romanes, turns out he's Greek. 00:10:05.589 --> 00:10:06.389 Fun fact. 00:10:06.709 --> 00:10:08.709 Uh Mediterranean. 00:10:08.949 --> 00:10:19.189 I was gonna say it is the Hollywood's uh uh um quirk of casting Mediterranean uh uh individuals in everywhere across the sea. 00:10:19.350 --> 00:10:24.309 You could be Jewish and you could play Italian, you could be Italian, you could play Jewish, Greek, Italian, what have you. 00:10:24.469 --> 00:10:26.069 That's that's just sort of the way it goes. 00:10:26.309 --> 00:10:28.629 Um and uh let's get on to today's movie. 00:10:28.709 --> 00:10:43.269 So today we're talking about the 2001 uh neo-nawar crime thriller, The Pledge, about a retiring police detective who becomes obsessed with the murder of a young girl, and chaos ensues. 00:10:43.589 --> 00:10:57.269 It's directed by Sean Penn, screenplay by Jerzy Kremelowski and Mary Olson Kremelowski, based on the 1958 novella The Pledge by Friedrich Durenmott, cinematography by Chris Menges, edited by J. 00:10:57.429 --> 00:11:01.669 Lash Casty, music by Klaus Bedel, and Hans Zimmer. 00:11:01.829 --> 00:11:02.469 Who's in it? 00:11:02.709 --> 00:11:04.629 Better question, who's not in it? 00:11:04.870 --> 00:11:06.549 This is the star-studded cast. 00:11:06.709 --> 00:11:19.990 First of all, if we have Jack Nicholson, also Patricia Clarkson, Benicio del Toro, Aaron Eckhart, Helen Miren, Tom Noonan, Robin Wright Penn, Vanessa Redgrave, Mickey Rourke, Sam Shepherd, Lois Smith, Harry Dean Stanton, Michael O. 00:11:20.230 --> 00:11:20.629 Keefe. 00:11:21.029 --> 00:11:24.309 My God, is that a cast of characters? 00:11:24.549 --> 00:11:26.629 Um, let's see, what else can we say? 00:11:26.789 --> 00:11:30.230 Oh, it was not nominated for any Academy Awards. 00:11:30.389 --> 00:11:38.469 It is not on any of the um lists we talk about here, the AFI list, the BFI list, best movies 1970s, because it came out in 2001. 00:11:38.789 --> 00:11:45.589 So, with that introduction, uh Jonathan did come to the most important part of the podcast. 00:11:46.069 --> 00:11:46.709 The pledge. 00:11:47.110 --> 00:11:48.069 Is this a good movie? 00:11:48.309 --> 00:11:49.509 Is this a bad movie? 00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:51.990 Or is this a great movie? 00:11:52.709 --> 00:12:04.069 You know, I'm a little stiny to give a one-word answer here, although that's often the case, uh, because I lean great, and yet something something in me reaches for nearly great. 00:12:04.469 --> 00:12:07.110 I had the exact same thought. 00:12:07.269 --> 00:12:08.309 That is so interesting. 00:12:08.549 --> 00:12:09.829 Exactly what I felt. 00:12:10.069 --> 00:12:15.110 It is so close to being great, but I don't quite think it is great. 00:12:15.350 --> 00:12:18.309 However, we could agree it's excellent. 00:12:18.789 --> 00:12:19.350 It's really good. 00:12:19.750 --> 00:12:21.029 It's a heck of a movie. 00:12:21.189 --> 00:12:24.469 I I I was very, very pleased to see it again. 00:12:24.870 --> 00:12:35.269 So the obvious question that we need to get to first and foremost here is why we talk about a movie that was released in 2001 on a podcast devoted to the 1970s. 00:12:35.509 --> 00:12:37.669 So, Jonathan, I'm going to turn that over to you. 00:12:38.069 --> 00:12:49.589 Well, we've done this before and under the uh moniker of 70s not 70s, which is you know, that there are 70s type movies that were not necessarily made in the 70s. 00:12:49.669 --> 00:12:51.269 And this is an example of that. 00:12:51.429 --> 00:12:54.949 Boy, oh boy, is this a 70s film. 00:12:55.189 --> 00:13:05.189 In fact, uh, you know, as someone who who revels in the entire 70s ambiance, for me, if anything, this was almost too much 70s. 00:13:05.350 --> 00:13:09.429 Uh I mean, it almost out 70s the 70s. 00:13:09.509 --> 00:13:10.789 It's it's astonishing. 00:13:10.949

--> 00:13:13.110 And of course, it's not by accident. 00:13:13.350 --> 00:13:21.589 Penn clearly, you know, cuts his teeth on the same cinema that we talked about, and he chooses to work with Nicholson similarly for that reason. 00:13:21.750 --> 00:13:24.230 This is not stunt casting in any way. 00:13:24.469 --> 00:13:40.549 Both Penn and Nicholson had to scale back, you know, their their pay just to get this movie made as every single studio in the history of the world turned down this relentlessly non-commercial film, which of course we also appreciate uh as having a part of that 70s ethos. 00:13:40.709 --> 00:13:50.629 That we make this movie, or the people who made this movie made this movie because they really wanted to make this movie, not because they thought they would make a ton of money, which is good because I don't think they did. 00:13:51.110 --> 00:13:53.189 Yeah, I don't think they made very much money with this film. 00:13:53.350 --> 00:14:19.750 And it is um I really wanted to do this film for a while uh because we talked about we have perennial conversations offline about what film we're gonna do next, and we talked about non-70s films, and this is one I kept coming back to because even though I think this movie, as we said a second ago, is not quite great, it's very close, but it's a movie that really does, I think, uh reflect the ethos of 70s filmmaking. 00:14:19.829 --> 00:14:21.829 It's incredibly morally ambiguous. 00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:24.469 The ending is beyond bleak. 00:14:24.870 --> 00:14:29.909 Uh the there is a plot, but it is of secondary importance to the character story. 00:14:30.549 --> 00:14:33.509 I don't want to go plot schmott because the plot actually is important. 00:14:33.669 --> 00:14:34.069 Right. 00:14:34.309 --> 00:14:36.709 But this is a character study, first and foremost. 00:14:36.870 --> 00:14:45.990 Um, and also it does feature uh an actor who is, let's be honest, one of the best actors of the 1970s uh in 2001. 00:14:46.149 --> 00:14:50.709 So before we get too deep into the film, let's take a second to talk about Jack Nicholson. 00:14:50.870 --> 00:15:04.069 Now, I want to mention that uh in a review of this film done by Roger Ebert, his second review, his first review gives three and a half stars, second review, he gave it four stars, and he said this might be Nicholson's best performance as an actor. 00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:05.909 Now that is a strong, strong statement. 00:15:06.069 --> 00:15:14.309 But I think we both agree this is a phenomenal Jack Nicholson performance, and one that I think ranks up with some of the best work he's ever done. 00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:17.589 Yes, better phrase, you know me, I hate to do best of. 00:15:17.829 --> 00:15:24.629 But exactly it's it's up there with his great performances, uh, which is really nice because it's 2001. 00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:35.189 And when Jack became, you know, a big famous movie star, a lot of the choices he made were for paychecks, even though he was always and everywhere, you know, a a brilliant, brilliant actor. 00:15:35.350 --> 00:15:53.909 But here he's really, you know, he did a half dozen, maybe ten pictures after the 70s, in which he brought his brilliant 70s capabilities to bear on a role and a film, and this is one of them, and so we we treasure those uh because they they were intermittent. 00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:55.350 Yeah, you know what's interesting? 00:15:55.429 --> 00:16:02.629 Do you know the movie he made before now he did not move did not do a movie for four years uh before he made this film? 00:16:02.789 --> 00:16:05.029 But do you know the film he made before this? 00:16:05.189 --> 00:16:05.750 Can you guess? 00:16:06.069 --> 00:16:07.429 I I not offhand. 00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:09.990 Uh a made what was it, The Witches of Eastwick or something? 00:16:10.309 --> 00:16:22.789 No, it was As Good as It Gets, a movie that I detested, and yet that movie did win him uh, I think his third uh Oscar uh award for best actor. 00:16:23.110 --> 00:16:26.389 Yeah, strangely enough, I I've never seen that one. 00:16:26.709 --> 00:16:28.469 Yeah, it's hard to believe, right? 00:16:28.709 --> 00:16:37.750 Uh he has won uh I think three Academy Awards, one for one flew The Cuckoo's Nest, and the uh second for this, and the third for another movie I absolutely despise, which is turns of endearment. 00:16:37.909 --> 00:16:47.669 Um but I bring this up because I think I interesting about Nicholson is that his later film career, uh, he didn't work as much as he did, obviously, in younger days. 00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:50.870 He was still, you know, I say it but guessing his he's still live today, of course. 00:16:51.029 --> 00:16:53.029 I think he was in his 60s at this point. 00:16:53.189 --> 00:17:00.149 Um he did this movie, The Pledge, then he did uh 2002 movie called about Schmidt, which he also got an Oscar nomination for, though he didn't win. 00:17:00.230 --> 00:17:05.990 Uh, and then he did a couple of a comedy called Anger Management, something's got to give, and then three years later he did The Departed. 00:17:06.150 --> 00:17:08.390 Uh See, but you know, anger management. 00:17:08.549 --> 00:17:09.589 That's what I'm talking about. 00:17:09.750 --> 00:17:15.029 We got to go through a lot of anger management, which I have not seen uh to get to the movies that we revere. 00:17:15.190 --> 00:17:18.710 And and as I'm saying that, let me apologize to As Good As It Gets. 00:17:18.870 --> 00:17:21.110 I believe he co-starred with Helen Hunt in that film. 00:17:21.190 --> 00:17:21.910 I haven't seen it. 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:23.750 I take her very seriously as an actor. 00:17:23.829 --> 00:17:25.029 I think she's very talented. 00:17:25.269 --> 00:17:32.150 So, you know, sometimes they make movies uh to be, you know, commercial hits, and uh I, you know, people have to pay bills. 00:17:32.309 --> 00:17:33.029 I have no problem with that. 00:17:33.110 --> 00:17:36.150 I just

don't have to go to the theater and see them. 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:38.549 I'm not a huge Helen Hunt fan, to be honest. 00:17:38.630 --> 00:17:41.269 And I think I think she might have won Best Oscar for that. 00:17:41.750 --> 00:17:44.070 I know that movie won, I think that movie won Best Picture that year. 00:17:44.310 --> 00:17:45.430 I really didn't like that movie. 00:17:45.590 --> 00:17:48.310 And um Yeah, I'm in no position to judge. 00:17:48.630 --> 00:17:49.350 No position to judge. 00:17:49.590 --> 00:17:58.390 But I but I bring this up because he did, so he did this movie, The Pledge, and then he did 2002 about Schmidt, which I think actually is one of his best performances. 00:17:58.470 --> 00:18:00.150 I think actually even better than The Pledge. 00:18:00.230 --> 00:18:02.790 I think that's that movie is a tour de force. 00:18:03.029 --> 00:18:08.710 And what what is interesting about both of these films is that they really do show an actor going against type. 00:18:08.870 --> 00:18:17.190 And this is an argument I've made here many times in the past that I think you know actors tend to be the most interesting, especially big stars, when they go against type. 00:18:17.350 --> 00:18:22.470 I mean, I think the classic example of this to me is um uh Humphrey Bogar, Treasure of the Sierra Madre. 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:24.550 I love when characters do that and they have the guts to do it. 00:18:24.630 --> 00:18:28.070 And for Nicholson to do this so late in his career, I think is really interesting. 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:39.190 I think it shows an actor who was still trying to um explore his craft and still trying to make interesting and compelling films with interesting performances that were not what people expected of him. 00:18:39.350 --> 00:18:52.950 Now, of course, there were movies that he did do that were more to type, and I'm thinking of A Few Good Men and then uh 2006 The Departed, where I mean the budget for scenery that Nicholson ate must have been in the millions of dollars for that film. 00:18:53.110 --> 00:18:54.950 I don't hate that film, I know you don't like it. 00:18:55.029 --> 00:18:56.150 Um I do not. 00:18:56.390 --> 00:18:57.269 Yeah, I know you don't. 00:18:57.350 --> 00:18:58.150 And I don't blame you. 00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:03.269 It's not a great film, but his performance is so over the top, um, it's a little bit ridiculous. 00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:13.750 But, you know, I I think, again, as I said before, I think the interesting about about this movie and about Schmidt, some of his other later work is that he showed himself to be an actor willing to take chances. 00:19:13.910 --> 00:19:19.509 And what is it about this performance for you, for Nicholson, that that is so effective? 00:19:19.910 --> 00:19:29.750 Well, I think you've already touched on the fact that not only does it play against type, I mean, I don't think we ever get classic Jack in this picture. 00:19:29.990 --> 00:19:31.590 I don't think maybe

like a minute. 00:19:31.990 --> 00:19:32.950 It does a minute. 00:19:33.750 --> 00:19:34.150 Slip out. 00:19:34.390 --> 00:19:34.550 Yeah. 00:19:34.870 --> 00:19:44.310 I want to talk a bit about an earlier Penn Nicholson collaboration in The Crossing Guard, and that picture I love and you're meh on, but I do want to talk about it a little bit. 00:19:44.470 --> 00:19:50.630 But in that movie, you get you get pieces of classic Jack that 100% peak out. 00:19:50.870 --> 00:19:59.350 Whereas in The Pledge, this is very straight, very subdued, and you know, you like it when when actors play against hype. 00:19:59.509 --> 00:20:04.470 I like it when big actors play small, and he's definitely playing small here. 00:20:04.710 --> 00:20:11.110 There's no real major confrontational scene in this movie, is there? 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:26.630 The only one that I when I thought to myself, that's Jack Nicholson, was the scene when he goes to meet with Sam Shepherd and Aaron Eckhart uh in the police station and tells him you know the reason why he thinks that this murder investigation should be reopened. 00:20:26.870 --> 00:20:28.710 And he gets kind of angry at Sam Shepard. 00:20:28.950 --> 00:20:37.590 And then I think you see the old that the sort of the classic Nicholson anger and frustration and and visceral sort of acting that he can do. 00:20:38.550 --> 00:20:40.790 That's as close as it comes, but it's as close as it comes. 00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:42.630 It's not you can't handle the truths. 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:43.990 No, no, no, no, no. 00:20:44.150 --> 00:20:44.390 No. 00:20:44.630 --> 00:20:44.790 No. 00:20:45.190 --> 00:20:55.269 And also he's in such a position of structural weakness in that conversation that there's the frustration there is partially because of his institutional incompetence at that point. 00:20:55.350 --> 00:20:56.310 Aaron Powell Yes, exactly. 00:20:56.390 --> 00:20:58.470 Aaron Ross Powell I mean impotence, not incompetence. 00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:00.390 Well, both, right? 00:21:00.470 --> 00:21:01.110 Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. 00:21:01.350 --> 00:21:09.190 No, I I I mean I m maybe both, but I meant to say impotence, that he is so impotence, but the institutional incompetence. 00:21:09.750 --> 00:21:09.910 Yes. 00:21:10.390 --> 00:21:27.830 His impotence within the context of the institution at that time is where and he's so weak in that context that even though he does we see the Jack frustration, it's not the same kind of confident uh and confrontational, you know, I will I will bend you by the will of my passion type jack. 00:21:28.230 --> 00:21:28.310 Right. 00:21:28.630 --> 00:21:32.310 Which is, I think, in as you mentioned, the crossing guard, that is much more a feature of that film. 00:21:32.470 --> 00:21:35.110 Now, Crossing Guard also directed by Sean Penn. 00:21:35.269 --> 00:21:35.350 Yeah. 00:21:35.590 --> 00:21:42.390 Sean Penn did uh three films, kind of one after the other, I guess over actually not really over a 10-year period. 00:21:42.470 --> 00:21:43.509 I think the only three he's directed. 00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:44.550 Am I right in thinking that? 00:21:44.870 --> 00:21:45.670 No, there's a fourth. 00:21:45.830 --> 00:21:47.430 Um I believe it's Into the Wild. 00:21:47.670 --> 00:21:48.310 Oh, Into the Wild. 00:21:48.550 --> 00:21:49.350 Into the Wild he did. 00:21:49.430 --> 00:21:50.790 Yeah, that came later. 00:21:51.110 --> 00:21:55.430 Um so the three that I was thinking we have the uh Crossing Guard. 00:21:55.509 --> 00:21:56.710 Before that, we have The Pledge. 00:21:56.870 --> 00:22:03.110 I'm sorry, after that is the Pledge, and before that is Indian Runner, which I just finished watching, which I think, by the way, is is an excellent film. 00:22:03.269 --> 00:22:04.230 I really enjoyed it. 00:22:04.310 --> 00:22:07.430 Um great performance by Vigo Mortensen in that movie. 00:22:07.590 --> 00:22:10.070 Um and that was the first, I think, thing he directed. 00:22:10.310 --> 00:22:11.029 I believe so. 00:22:11.269 --> 00:22:11.509 Yeah. 00:22:11.670 --> 00:22:19.269 And you can see, I think, in this film, and see in all three of those films, that Sean Penn clearly has a great reverence for um 1970s filmmakers. 00:22:19.509 --> 00:22:27.670 In fact, at the end of uh Indian Runner, there's a point when he he thanks Hal Ashby, another director I'm forgetting now, and John Cassavetti's. 00:22:27.830 --> 00:22:31.509 So we can get a little sense of Penn's very nice influence. 00:22:31.590 --> 00:22:36.070 Um what influenced him at least to make this movie and to make all three of those films. 00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:37.509 Um so let's see. 00:22:37.590 --> 00:22:38.470 Let look go ahead. 00:22:38.550 --> 00:22:38.710 Sorry. 00:22:38.870 --> 00:22:47.910 Yeah, no, I just want to Wax poetically briefly about the crossing guard, I think that's the most Cassavetti's inflected of these of his pictures. 00:22:48.230 --> 00:22:59.430 And I just want to pause and I know that for many he is a lightning rod figure, but Penn's career as an actor and a director, I really have tremendous admiration for. 00:22:59.509 --> 00:23:11.029 And those of you who don't think he can stretch to an actor, I think I've mentioned this in the podcast before, but check out the miniseries Gaslet, in which he plays John Mitchell opposite Julia Roberts, who plays Martha Mitchell. 00:23:11.190 --> 00:23:15.590 It's a really good mini-series, but the i he becomes John Mitchell. 00:23:15.670 --> 00:23:16.630 It's mind-boggling. 00:23:16.710 --> 00:23:20.310 If you don't know it's Sean Penn, I don't think you would know it was Sean Penn. 00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:22.950 I I think the work there is remarkable. 00:23:23.110 --> 00:23:37.110 And then you have a very broad range of performances, some of which are indeed stunning, but then he also has this ambition as a director to make pictures that obviously are meaningful to him. 00:23:37.190 --> 00:23:42.710 And we can we can

circle back to the crossing guard at some point, but I am going to want to wax enthusiastic about that as well. 00:23:42.790 --> 00:23:42.950 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:23:43.110 --> 00:23:43.830 No, that's fine. 00:23:43.910 --> 00:23:49.190 And I just want to say all three of these movies, Indian Runner, Crossing Guard, and Plush, none of them did very well at the box office. 00:23:49.670 --> 00:23:53.509 They are not, they were not big hits for Jean Penn or for the studios. 00:23:53.990 --> 00:23:57.430 But I think it does show a commitment to making films that go against the grain. 00:23:57.509 --> 00:23:59.509 And I think you can say the same thing about his acting career. 00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:11.269 This might be a slightly inapt comparison, but he didn't go the Nicolas Cage route, which was uh an actor who has taken on a lot of uh roles in not great movies, um, in part, I think, just for the paycheck. 00:24:11.350 --> 00:24:13.430 Uh he became a movie star as far as a film actor. 00:24:13.590 --> 00:24:16.150 I think Sean Penn has always remained a film actor. 00:24:16.230 --> 00:24:16.390 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:18.710 No, I think that comparison is exactly right. 00:24:18.950 --> 00:24:24.150 These two young These two young actors came on the scene at exactly the same time. 00:24:24.390 --> 00:24:32.630 I think they appeared in a couple of films together, actually, and they were recognized as kind of the bright and hopeful lights of a new generation. 00:24:32.870 --> 00:24:37.269 And, you know, as you already said, Cage decided he'd rather be a movie star. 00:24:37.430 --> 00:24:44.950 But he, because he could have been, had he chosen a different path, one of the great actors of his generation. 00:24:45.110 --> 00:24:49.430 And, you know, my one of my pet peeves is when people, in my view, squander their talent. 00:24:49.750 --> 00:24:49.990 Yeah. 00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:50.390 Yeah. 00:24:50.550 --> 00:24:52.070 I think that's a fair, that's a fair point. 00:24:52.150 --> 00:25:04.070 Although I will say, just and and this is a total aside here, but uh Nicholas Cage's movie a couple years ago called Pig, that is an excellent movie, a small movie where he just really focuses on being an actor and not so much being a movie star. 00:25:04.150 --> 00:25:05.350 And uh it's it's great performance. 00:25:05.430 --> 00:25:06.230 So I think you would like it, actually. 00:25:06.390 --> 00:25:07.110 I think you should check it out. 00:25:07.590 --> 00:25:10.710 Um okay, so to back to the movie we're talking about today. 00:25:10.870 --> 00:25:12.950 Uh sorry, we've got a little far afield here. 00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:14.550 So, how does this movie begin? 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:21.190 Uh, it tells a story of Jerry Black, played by Jack Nicholson, who um is retiring. 00:25:21.350 --> 00:25:23.670 He is a police detective in Reno, Nevada. 00:25:23.830 --> 00:25:24.630 He is retiring. 00:25:24.790 --> 00:25:30.870 He goes to his going-away party at a Hawaiian-styled um uh nightclub. 00:25:31.190 --> 00:25:32.230 I thought it was an odd choice. 00:25:32.310 --> 00:25:33.830 I don't know why they did that, but it was interesting. 00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:45.190 Anyway, uh, as this celebration is going on, as he is being honored, as they are saying goodbye to him, uh, all the detectives scurry about because there has been a body has been found of a seven-year-old girl. 00:25:45.509 --> 00:25:48.790 Now, at this point, again, Jerry is retiring. 00:25:48.950 --> 00:25:53.830 He's preparing to go to on a on a fishing trip, I think, to Mexico. 00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:58.230 And he asks, though, to go be involved with the investigation. 00:25:58.390 --> 00:26:00.470 I think this is a crucial decision in the movie. 00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:12.790 And just before we get to that point, I'll just say he goes to the crime scene, and this leads to the but basically ends up being the heart of this movie, which is him trying to solve a murder that everyone else thinks has been solved. 00:26:13.029 --> 00:26:15.509 So I think uh do you want to interject here? 00:26:15.590 --> 00:26:16.950 I think I probably said too much already. 00:26:17.430 --> 00:26:22.550 Yeah, I just want to say that the whole sequence here is just so beautifully done. 00:26:22.710 --> 00:26:25.269 And this is a very maturely directed film, I thought. 00:26:25.350 --> 00:26:33.350 Again, I'm gonna praise the crossing guard, but I think the directing work here is just a clear step ahead of the work done in that earlier picture. 00:26:33.509 --> 00:26:45.029 And so the murder or the not that we don't see the murder, the finding of the little girl's body and the retirement party are interspersed with each other in a way that I thought was extremely uh well done. 00:26:45.190 --> 00:26:48.550 And then Jack, you know, he's he doesn't really want to be at this party. 00:26:48.630 --> 00:26:53.830 And once a cop or always a cop, he can tell that his peers have somehow gotten wind of an interesting crime. 00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:59.830 And so he, as you mentioned, he abandons his retirement party to go to the crime scene and he goes there. 00:26:59.990 --> 00:27:01.110 It's very beautiful. 00:27:01.269 --> 00:27:26.790 The the um environment of the film is quite special in that you can go from snow to warmth uh because of the the the pot the topology of the region, and so in the the crime scene is snowbound, and you see very quickly uh Nicholson's professionalism, especially in contrast with the local cops, and you have one of the world's most horrific crimes, obviously, the death of a child, and it's probably the work of a serial killer. 00:27:27.269 --> 00:27:27.830 Right. 00:27:28.150 --> 00:27:29.350 Um Right. 00:27:29.509 --> 00:27:41.350 And so it's interesting, you know, um uh I think this moment where he decides to leave his party is actually the key inflection point in the movie and tells us all we need to know about

this character. 00:27:41.509 --> 00:27:57.910 And just a step back, before he gets to the party, we the this the movie opens with him Well, I should say the movie opens actually with the end the end of the movie of him like sort of deranged, losing his mind, uh talking to himself. 00:27:58.070 --> 00:27:59.029 That's the that happened. 00:27:59.190 --> 00:28:01.269 The end of the movie also is the opening of the movie. 00:28:01.430 --> 00:28:12.550 And then we go to Now I'm gonna interrupt you here, as I often do, and say when you see this movie for the first time, you don't understand that the opening scene is the last scene. 00:28:12.710 --> 00:28:13.509 How could you? 00:28:13.910 --> 00:28:23.670 And it has so much more power, at least it did for me, the the on repeated viewings when you see that the movie is opening with that, it and and then it cuts back to this. 00:28:23.750 --> 00:28:26.150 It I I found it, you know, extremely powerful. 00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:34.710 Yeah, I saw the movie a long time ago, so it's hard for me to remember what I would think at the time, but it's not obvious at the opening that you're seeing something from the future. 00:28:34.950 --> 00:28:35.110 Right? 00:28:35.269 --> 00:28:37.190 You don't know that that's you don't really know that. 00:28:37.350 --> 00:28:55.190 But what you do, I mean you can get a sense you get a s a hint of it because in the the opening, which is that again in in the future, he is he looks um uh disheveled, yes, his hair is he is all amuck, he's drinking, he's talking to himself, he looks like a crazy person. 00:28:55.350 --> 00:28:55.830 Yes, right? 00:28:55.990 --> 00:28:59.269 Somebody you might you might see in the street, you know, having a conversation with themselves. 00:28:59.590 --> 00:29:02.950 So that is a rather disturbing opening. 00:29:03.029 --> 00:29:07.670 And then you go to this shot of what is I think they're I think I forget what they're called. 00:29:07.750 --> 00:29:10.470 I think they're like shacks on ice where people go ice fishing. 00:29:10.710 --> 00:29:10.790 Yeah. 00:29:11.029 --> 00:29:14.230 Jerry Black character, he's a big fisherman. 00:29:14.630 --> 00:29:23.430 And uh in this scene, he is ice fishing, and you see a fish in the water, and you see him also drinking Scosh Glenn Fiddlech directly from the bottle. 00:29:23.670 --> 00:29:33.910 So it gives you a sense that he is he is a a lonely guy, a guy who is focused on his obsessively, you might say, on his hobbies, on his passions. 00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:34.150 Yeah. 00:29:34.310 --> 00:29:36.310 But he's also probably an alcoholic. 00:29:36.550 --> 00:29:41.750 Then he drives to the party, uh, he goes to his office where he uh looks around his office. 00:29:41.830 --> 00:29:43.910 And it's interesting, I think, the sh the scene here. 00:29:44.070 --> 00:29:50.070 He's looking at all these pictures of himself when he was in the uh, I guess in the Marines or in the military in Vietnam, I'm assuming. 00:29:50.230 --> 00:29:54.950 Um, a shot of him as a as a police detective or police officer. 00:29:55.110 --> 00:30:01.509 Um it's like looking at pictures of him in the past, but all those pictures in the past, he is, in a sense, of service. 00:30:01.670 --> 00:30:10.230 He's doing something where he is needed, where he is trying, you know, he is it's not he's not just work doing something for himself, he's doing something for somebody else. 00:30:10.390 --> 00:30:13.190 And I think that is an important setup for the film. 00:30:13.350 --> 00:30:21.190 He also looks out the window and sees an old person uh walking on a walker, which I think is also telling because it's a sense of where his he thinks his life might be going. 00:30:21.430 --> 00:30:21.750 Yes. 00:30:21.990 --> 00:30:23.110 No wasted shot. 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:24.390 No wasted shot. 00:30:24.550 --> 00:30:25.590 Then he goes to the party. 00:30:25.750 --> 00:30:30.070 There's a great shot in the party of all the people around him dancing, having a good time. 00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:34.710 The great shot of Aaron Eckhart, uh, who's like really getting into this party and really getting down. 00:30:34.870 --> 00:30:37.350 And Jerry looks like he doesn't even want to be there. 00:30:37.509 --> 00:30:39.430 Even though, again, it is his party. 00:30:39.590 --> 00:30:40.630 It isn't to honor him. 00:30:40.790 --> 00:30:46.710 And again, it just shows you this is not a guy who looks like he can have a good time, unless he's drinking and going ice fishing. 00:30:46.870 --> 00:30:48.710 And so then he goes out to deal with the crime. 00:30:48.790 --> 00:30:49.430 You mentioned that. 00:30:49.509 --> 00:30:59.110 And that leads to uh this scene where he ends up being the person who is tasked with notifying the family, the parents of the little girl who was killed. 00:30:59.350 --> 00:31:01.990 I know you love this shot, so I'm just gonna let you talk a little bit about this. 00:31:02.070 --> 00:31:03.110 Aaron Powell I love this shot. 00:31:03.269 --> 00:31:08.790 So, you know, the the the bumbling local cops have hemmed and hard to decide they don't feel like telling the parents about this. 00:31:09.430 --> 00:31:11.269 He'd rather not do it, is what they say, I believe. 00:31:11.910 --> 00:31:19.190 So he kind of, as the expression goes, mans up and and goes to where they live, and it seems to be a poultry farm. 00:31:19.430 --> 00:31:26.790 And the scene is handled so beautifully because you're making your way through this kind of sea of young chicks of some sort. 00:31:27.190 --> 00:31:28.150 I think they're turkeys, aren't they? 00:31:28.470 --> 00:31:29.590 Yeah, I think turkeys is true. 00:31:29.750 --> 00:31:29.830 Yeah. 00:31:30.070 --> 00:31:34.790 I I, you know, I'm uh I'm not an expert in this area, but but my guess was turkeys. 00:31:34.950 --> 00:31:41.430 But it is so impressively shot, and obviously, I think it's um who was the DP? 00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:43.029 I've

already forgotten his name. 00:31:43.350 --> 00:31:45.990 Uh Chris Chris Mangus. 00:31:46.310 --> 00:31:47.029 Chris Mangus. 00:31:47.269 --> 00:31:50.870 You know, obviously this movie is very beautifully shot, and he must have had a hand on that. 00:31:51.029 --> 00:31:58.150 He also shot The Killing Fields, which is an astonishingly beautifully shot film, even if it's a little the Sam Watterson film? 00:31:58.390 --> 00:31:58.630 Yeah. 00:31:58.870 --> 00:31:59.910 Yeah, that's a great film. 00:32:00.070 --> 00:32:00.150 Yeah. 00:32:00.470 --> 00:32:00.630 Yes. 00:32:00.870 --> 00:32:03.990 And in any event, this is handled so well. 00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:08.470 First of all, it's beautiful, and second of all, it's tasteful. 00:32:08.550 --> 00:32:10.870 It's a long shot, and it's largely silent. 00:32:11.029 --> 00:32:24.470 And Nicholson approaches the family, and we don't hear what he says, but we know what he's saying, and the mother reacts as the way a mother plausibly would, which is to kind of beat on him because he's the bearer of this news and she can't take it. 00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:39.110 And it is, you know, with with all apologies to Eric Roomer, who I revere and once wrote an essay called In Defense of Talking Cinema, uh, you know, that we need we need a buzzer or a bell for this when I'm about to say things like, this is cinema. 00:32:39.430 --> 00:32:41.190 This is visual storytelling. 00:32:41.350 --> 00:32:49.269 It's kind of beautiful, it's restrained, it tells you everything you need to know in a way that can be only understood in the cinematic form. 00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:54.710 It's it's it's what I look for when one of the one of the five or six things I'm looking for when I go to the movies. 00:32:55.029 --> 00:32:56.630 Man, I couldn't agree with you more about that. 00:32:56.790 --> 00:33:00.150 You know, I everything you said I agree with. 00:33:00.230 --> 00:33:06.230 And and uh to your point, this is just uh this is the essence of visual storytelling. 00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:07.670 It really is. 00:33:07.830 --> 00:33:16.230 You know, everything about this shot it's we it's a weird thing to say, but the shot almost is what makes it puts this film in the category of great. 00:33:16.710 --> 00:33:18.870 Because I just love the choice that he makes here. 00:33:19.430 --> 00:33:23.430 Um you know, you see the car show up because the lights are on the car. 00:33:23.990 --> 00:33:32.470 You see uh the turkeys, interestingly enough, almost like uh jump to attention as they see this person approaching. 00:33:32.790 --> 00:33:35.430 You see him walk through the turkeys as they sort of they part. 00:33:35.590 --> 00:33:41.509 And then you again, you said you see uh the mother played by Patricia Clarkson kind of hit him. 00:33:41.910 --> 00:33:42.070 Yeah. 00:33:42.230 --> 00:33:43.990 And you see him look up at the sky. 00:33:44.230 --> 00:33:50.790 And I it's just it's a gorgeous way to tell a story about an incredibly heartbreaking moment. 00:33:51.029 --> 00:33:51.190 Right. 00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:53.269 And it's also a a long shot. 00:33:53.430 --> 00:33:58.070 I don't want a close-up of her that her daughter is dead. 00:33:58.710 --> 00:34:08.469 And and I think a lot of modern filmmakers would have had him tell her and show a close-up on his face, a close-up on her face. 00:34:08.869 --> 00:34:09.349 Exactly. 00:34:09.590 --> 00:34:15.989 I just think this is such a more effective way to capture the sense of of heartbreak. 00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:16.550 Yeah. 00:34:16.949 --> 00:34:17.349 I don't know. 00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:25.829 I it it's I I I know we're dwelling on this quite a bit, but I just think it's such a brilliant moment, such a brilliant decision by a director to film the shot in this way. 00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:32.630 And and up to that point in the film, it's also I don't know what minute it is, but it's it's probably around minute 17, minute 18. 00:34:32.789 --> 00:34:39.429 The whole thing has been really beautiful and and visually it it's visual storytelling, even the earlier scenes as well. 00:34:39.590 --> 00:34:41.429 I I'm really impressed with all of that work. 00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:42.230 Right. 00:34:42.550 --> 00:34:53.909 So after this this scene, uh you see um Nicholson sitting down with uh Patricia Clarkson, with Michael Keith, the father, and talking about what has happened. 00:34:54.149 --> 00:35:03.829 And in this scene, Patricia Clarkson, who's wonderful, and she's wonderful in really everything, but she's particularly good in this in this brief, very briefly cameo performance. 00:35:04.549 --> 00:35:11.589 She asks him to make a promise that he is going to solve the murder of her daughter. 00:35:11.909 --> 00:35:12.309 Yes. 00:35:12.869 --> 00:35:17.989 Which is what is I think I think popularly understood to be the pledge. 00:35:18.149 --> 00:35:22.629 It is the pledge that Nicholson makes to her to solve the crime. 00:35:23.029 --> 00:35:23.349 Okay. 00:35:23.750 --> 00:35:28.230 So a couple pro now this is a question we're we we should get to get to now. 00:35:28.789 --> 00:35:30.389 Is that the essence of the film? 00:35:30.549 --> 00:35:35.029 Is that what drives his character, Jerry Black, to solve this murder? 00:35:35.429 --> 00:35:38.549 Well, you and I have a slight or even a moderate disagreement on this. 00:35:38.710 --> 00:35:45.109 So I want to make the case for the fact that at least for the first 90 minutes of the the picture, it is. 00:35:45.269 --> 00:35:46.629 They we really dwell on this. 00:35:46.710 --> 00:35:52.069 I mean, we've alighted over a couple of things, one of which is that this is a deeply religious family. 00:35:52.309 --> 00:35:52.549 Yes. 00:35:52.789 --> 00:35:56.949 And so we she doesn't just pledge, she doubles down on this pledge. 00:35:57.029 --> 00:35:58.309 She asks him, Will he do it? 00:35:58.469 --> 00:36:00.149 You know, says, Do you swear? 00:36:00.230 --> 00:36:02.549 And he

says yes, and then she like pulls out a Bible or something. 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:06.149 She wants him to swear like on the sacredness of his own soul. 00:36:06.309 --> 00:36:13.589 So the movie dwells on the pledge, which I mean which to me means that the movie takes the pledge seriously. 00:36:13.829 --> 00:36:24.149 Um again, Nicholson's character late in the film devolves uh into a state that cannot be explained by the pledge, but I'm inclined to take the pledge seriously. 00:36:24.309 --> 00:36:39.429 And while we're in that scene, I want to double back and just talk to a heartbreaking moment in which the father wants to go see the daughter's body and Nicholson discourages him from doing so, and the father gets angry saying, Why, why shouldn't I go see my daughter? 00:36:39.589 --> 00:36:50.789 And Nicholson's line and his line read is so beautiful, in which he says something very close to because we barely dared to look ourselves, referring to what had happened to the child. 00:36:51.429 --> 00:37:07.750 And it's and again, for me that reinforces that this is no no run-of-the-mill crime, that that that Nicholson is personally affected by the crime, and therefore had a, you know, yes, once a cop or always a cop, but he wants he wants this murder solved. 00:37:07.909 --> 00:37:19.349 And then you have an extended scene, an extended moment in which you get the the pledge and the doubling down on the pledge and the invocation of religion that we're told later that Nicholson isn't really a religious man. 00:37:19.509 --> 00:37:24.629 But nevertheless, that family to them, that kind of pledge, I think is is very serious business. 00:37:24.869 --> 00:37:29.750 So I I'm going that's just me making the case for the pledge having significance. 00:37:29.909 --> 00:37:31.190 And it's the title of the movie. 00:37:31.589 --> 00:37:32.869 And so no, I know. 00:37:33.029 --> 00:37:36.230 And so I know that we have spent a lot of time on this, but I think it's really important. 00:37:36.309 --> 00:37:40.149 I think it does, it's it's the it's the key tension point in this film. 00:37:40.949 --> 00:37:45.750 Because as the film goes along, Nicholson becomes obsessed with Sloven's crime. 00:37:45.989 --> 00:37:53.349 And uh we see a um uh a uh uh individual is arrested, played by BC Del Toro. 00:37:53.589 --> 00:37:57.670 He's Native American, he is uh developmentally disabled. 00:37:57.909 --> 00:37:58.149 Yes. 00:37:58.309 --> 00:38:05.750 Um he is coaxed into a confession uh to confessing to this rape and murder of this little girl. 00:38:05.909 --> 00:38:14.549 Um he is charged and then he is brought to a holding cell where he steals a gun from a police officer and shoots himself in the head and kills himself. 00:38:14.629 --> 00:38:16.949 And that is seen as the as the end of the crime. 00:38:17.349 --> 00:38:19.349 He did it, crime solved. 00:38:19.750 --> 00:38:22.469 And of course, Jerry Black is not convinced. 00:38:22.789 --> 00:38:28.389 Now, I I

bring this up again because there's a couple things that happen in that scene with Pritchard Clarkson that I think are really important. 00:38:28.629 --> 00:38:34.789 One thing about about Jerry is that he is a guy who's a a master detective. 00:38:35.269 --> 00:38:50.389 And in fact, I'm gonna stop back a second and say this movie is based on a book called The Pledge, uh, written by uh Friedrich Dornmott, in which it is actually supposed to be sort of a critique of detective fiction. 00:38:50.949 --> 00:39:14.469 And and in which it the story is told by a colleague of a character who is played by Nicholson in the film, um, who explains kind of what happens, and it sort of follows the same kind of plot, but it's really a story about how a crime, you know, you can be a tr truly great police detective, and you know, so things like chance and coincidence uh often are the things that actually help solve a crime or can help you prevent you from solving a crime. 00:39:14.629 --> 00:39:25.509 So it's much more about like the genre of detective to fiction, it's much more about like the craft of investigating crimes that it is about what the what this film is actually focused on, which is sort of a psychological character study. 00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:32.629 I bring this up because in the book, the idea is the detective is a master detective, or at least somebody who is very skilled at it. 00:39:32.789 --> 00:39:42.549 And Nicholson is very skilled at being a detective, very skilled at investigating these kind of crimes, yet he does something no detective would ever do, which is pledge to solve a crime, right? 00:39:42.710 --> 00:39:44.869 Detectives are trained not to do this. 00:39:45.029 --> 00:39:47.829 They don't ever tell the victim, I'm going to catch the killer. 00:39:48.069 --> 00:39:49.429 That's the last thing you do, right? 00:39:49.509 --> 00:39:57.109 Because it puts enormous pressure on you and also gives the the family a sense of of uh expectations that couldn't that may not be realized. 00:39:57.429 --> 00:40:00.789 And so I I found that a strange decision on his part to do that. 00:40:00.949 --> 00:40:10.549 And I think what drives it is that he is not pledging to solve the crime because he wants to give this woman peace. 00:40:10.789 --> 00:40:13.909 He doesn't want to quit his job and retire. 00:40:14.069 --> 00:40:15.750 He wants to have a purpose. 00:40:15.909 --> 00:40:26.230 And that is what drives him this entire movie, is to have a purpose and to not have to retire, is to not have to no longer be a person who solves murders. 00:40:26.469 --> 00:40:34.629 I think it's true that he doesn't want to retire, but for me, that raises the musical question that the film does not answer, which is so why does he retire? 00:40:34.789 --> 00:40:39.909 But in terms of the pledge qua pledge, she really puts him on the spot there. 00:40:40.069 --> 00:40:45.589 I mean, he's, you know, a hardened detective, but he's obviously somewhat traumatized

by the murder itself. 00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:51.589 And then he has the scene with the family, and then he's back at the house with the family, and she confronts him with this. 00:40:51.989 --> 00:40:58.149 And yes, it would have been proper procedure to say, I'm sorry, ma'am, but we're not allowed to make such pledges in the detective game. 00:40:58.309 --> 00:41:10.149 Uh but, you know, in that moment, at that space, with her confrontation, given what has transpired, I I understand him breaking with protocol and doing it in that case. 00:41:10.469 --> 00:41:13.429 You know what, though, I'm gonna put I'm gonna throw it back at you. 00:41:13.750 --> 00:41:17.750 You pointed out the lovely moment when he tells the father, don't go see your daughter. 00:41:17.909 --> 00:41:18.149 Yes. 00:41:18.309 --> 00:41:18.469 Right? 00:41:18.710 --> 00:41:19.909 That is the right procedure. 00:41:19.989 --> 00:41:21.190 That is the right thing to do. 00:41:21.349 --> 00:41:21.509 Right. 00:41:21.670 --> 00:41:25.109 So he is, he is in that sense going by the book. 00:41:25.349 --> 00:41:25.909 Yes. 00:41:26.230 --> 00:41:32.469 And yet he doesn't when she asks, he could have said to her, I, you know, I can't make that pledge to you, I can't make that promise to you. 00:41:32.629 --> 00:41:37.829 I think he makes the promise because he wants to be wedded to having to solve this crime. 00:41:38.069 --> 00:41:38.869 That's how I see it. 00:41:39.429 --> 00:41:44.230 I can agree with that, but I I think both acts are warm. 00:41:44.469 --> 00:41:48.469 When he tells the dad not to go see the daughter, that is an act of kindness. 00:41:49.029 --> 00:41:54.069 If he told the mom, sorry, I can't make that pledge, that would have been stone cold. 00:41:55.509 --> 00:41:58.389 It would have, but it also would have been the appropriate thing for him to do. 00:41:58.629 --> 00:41:58.789 Sure. 00:41:59.190 --> 00:42:06.869 And so I I am I I that's a fair is a fair point, but something I'll just I'll just comment on because give you a little sort of see how the sausage is made. 00:42:07.029 --> 00:42:21.750 Uh we were talking about this last night, actually, and and you you said to me you wanted some some kind of gesture on the part of the movie that suggested that um that Nicholson was more focused on not retiring and keeping his job than he was on this pledge. 00:42:21.829 --> 00:42:30.230 And you know, I said, well, what more gesture do you need than him literally leaving his retirement party to go to a crime scene? 00:42:30.389 --> 00:42:31.269 And that's what he does. 00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:32.869 I mean, I don't know why he retires. 00:42:32.949 --> 00:42:38.549 I assume he's he's probably retirement age, or I assume he maybe got pushed out of the job. 00:42:38.869 --> 00:42:42.949 But um, you know, it's clear he doesn't want to retire. 00:42:43.509 --> 00:42:45.909 Everyone's dancing in his Go ahead, Zachary. 00:42:46.069 --> 00:42:49.429 For me, I just need a line

mumbled, even mumbled under his breath. 00:42:49.589 --> 00:42:53.750 For example, mumbled under his breath, we learned that he was twice married and twice divorced. 00:42:53.829 --> 00:42:56.389 And that's like a throwaway line, and we pick up on that barely. 00:42:56.549 --> 00:43:03.509 And I want him in the in the police precinct to say something about a mandatory retirement age or being forced onto a desk job. 00:43:03.670 --> 00:43:14.629 Not a big, you know, scene-chewing thing, just some casual reference to the fact that had he his druthers, he would still be on the job, and yet he's kind of being nudged into retirement. 00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:19.349 We have, we, I maybe it's just me needing more hand holding, but I saw nothing in the first time. 00:43:22.309 --> 00:43:23.670 This is very unusual for you, John. 00:43:24.629 --> 00:43:26.869 You have this desire to have your hand held like this. 00:43:26.949 --> 00:43:27.349 I'm surprised. 00:43:28.629 --> 00:43:31.589 Just a broken twig or a bent blade of grass. 00:43:31.750 --> 00:43:35.829 Some some more some more clear hint that this is what was going on. 00:43:36.230 --> 00:43:36.629 Interesting. 00:43:36.789 --> 00:43:48.309 Now, I I didn't need it, and I it's interesting this this disagreement because to me, uh to me, there's no question that the pledge he makes to Patricia Clarkson is not why he's doing this. 00:43:48.549 --> 00:43:54.869 Like I I am com convinced a hundred percent that what that the pledge is an excuse. 00:43:55.109 --> 00:43:57.750 The pledge is his way to justify what he's doing. 00:43:57.909 --> 00:44:06.469 When in reality, what and I think, look, I think the story is told in all of the moments leading up to the the pledge, right? 00:44:06.710 --> 00:44:10.469 The the the the the him looking around his office and seeing all these pictures of himself. 00:44:10.629 --> 00:44:17.429 Um the uh um his his attitude, his or his demeanor at this going away party. 00:44:17.589 --> 00:44:22.389 I think all of it and the fact that he leaves the party, the fact that he volunteers to give the notification. 00:44:22.469 --> 00:44:23.349 He doesn't have to give the notification. 00:44:23.429 --> 00:44:25.029 Aaron Eckert could have given the notification. 00:44:25.190 --> 00:44:26.309 He chooses to do it. 00:44:26.549 --> 00:44:29.509 I I think he is looking for an excuse not to leave. 00:44:29.909 --> 00:44:31.349 And this is what provides it for him. 00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:35.989 Aaron Ross Powell, I guess the basis of our disagreement is really that I do not find these competing explanations. 00:44:36.149 --> 00:44:37.909 I find these overlapping explanations. 00:44:38.309 --> 00:44:39.670 So I think it's definitely true. 00:44:40.149 --> 00:44:45.989 True that he would much rather spend his time investigating a murder than going fishing. 00:44:46.149 --> 00:44:48.230 I think the movie makes that very, very clear. 00:44:48.469 --> 00:45:02.869 But at the same time, I do think the movie dwells on the pledge, and there are a couple of callbacks, like when he's sitting in the diner and he sees the family in the distance, and there's another parade in which he sees the little boy who discovered the body in the distance. 00:45:03.029 --> 00:45:03.989 These are callbacks. 00:45:04.069 --> 00:45:10.230 These are reminders to him of that crime and of, and I think of the commitment that he made to them. 00:45:10.389 --> 00:45:12.789 But I don't see them as I don't see them as opposite. 00:45:12.949 --> 00:45:13.989 You have to choose one. 00:45:14.149 --> 00:45:16.389 I think I think both can be true. 00:45:16.869 --> 00:45:17.909 You know, maybe. 00:45:18.309 --> 00:45:19.029 That's interesting. 00:45:19.190 --> 00:45:30.549 But I I think there's one way to read this film, which is that his obsession with solving this murder, obsession with being feeling like he's needed, and not needed. 00:45:30.710 --> 00:45:36.949 You know, he is needed as the film goes along by Robin White's character and his and her daughter, but that isn't enough for him. 00:45:37.109 --> 00:45:43.829 He needs to be needed in the sense of solving something, in the sense of being of service, and not like on that individual level to this to this little girl. 00:45:43.989 --> 00:45:45.829 He needs something bigger than that, I think. 00:45:45.909 --> 00:45:49.029 And so that's why he puts the little girl at risk. 00:45:49.349 --> 00:46:01.909 He ultimately is so focused on his own obsessions that I think that that clouds him to everything else around him in his life and everything else and makes him make decisions that ultimately harm people he should care about. 00:46:02.710 --> 00:46:08.629 Well, we'll get to those decisions, I think, a little further down the road because I'm I'm more ambivalent. 00:46:08.710 --> 00:46:14.629 I know he's viewed that way, but I'm I'm not sure I see it in exactly the same way with regard to putting people in danger. 00:46:15.109 --> 00:46:16.149 Okay, let's get to that then. 00:46:16.309 --> 00:46:21.509 Okay, so all right, so mentioned earlier Benichi Del Toro kills himself. 00:46:21.670 --> 00:46:25.750 Um Nicholson it leaves the next day to go on his trip. 00:46:25.909 --> 00:46:30.149 He's at the airport, he decides not to go, he comes back, he begins to investigate this crime. 00:46:30.389 --> 00:46:30.629 Yes. 00:46:30.869 --> 00:46:34.389 He begins to look into other murders that happened in the area. 00:46:34.549 --> 00:46:41.509 He finds three other murders of little girls similar to the MO of this murder of this little girl. 00:46:41.670 --> 00:46:53.509 Um and he goes to you know his old police precinct to with Sam Shepherd played his his captain played by Sam Shepherd in a small role, but as we've discussed earlier in this podcast, Sam Shepard always good. 00:46:53.589 --> 00:47:00.949 Uh Aaron Eckhart is in the scene as well, and he tries to sort of explain why he thinks this is uh a serial killer.

00:47:01.029 --> 00:47:13.269 He show he shows a picture that this little girl had drawn as I think eight-year-old girl had drawn of somebody she calls the wizard, had called had called the wizard, and he believes this is indication that there's this murder out there. 00:47:13.349 --> 00:47:20.230 Uh Sam Shepherd and Aaron Eckhart think that Jerry is losing his mind completely, and they basically shoe him away. 00:47:21.349 --> 00:47:24.389 And we have an interesting structural tone shift in the movie. 00:47:24.629 --> 00:47:28.149 I do want to say that airport scene, again, nice visual storytelling. 00:47:28.230 --> 00:47:29.509 It's a small piece of business. 00:47:29.670 --> 00:47:35.829 And I think we've gotten past that, but I I wanted to dwell a little bit more on the interrogation of Benice La Torah, but let's drop that just for a minute. 00:47:35.909 --> 00:47:36.629 Oh, no, no, no, no. 00:47:36.710 --> 00:47:39.349 Let's mention the let's mention interrogation to be something. 00:47:39.589 --> 00:47:40.629 That's an important scene, actually. 00:47:40.869 --> 00:47:40.949 Yeah. 00:47:41.349 --> 00:47:50.629 I just thought it, you know, Penn didn't direct these films, but Penn's interest in the abuse of power by law enforcement is something that weaves its way through his career. 00:47:50.869 --> 00:47:53.829 His dad, Leo Penn, a director, was blacklisted. 00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:55.670 That possibly informed part of that. 00:47:55.829 --> 00:48:11.509 But if you look at two of his most famous roles, Dead Man Walking and Mystic River, uh, directed by Clint Eastwood, they both have to do with the intersection of people and the criminal justice system, and of course, the steep steepedness of moral ambiguity in that. 00:48:11.670 --> 00:48:18.869 And the behavior of the police uh in this interrogation, you know, they want this crime solved. 00:48:19.029 --> 00:48:29.589 That's the urgency of the pressure, and they have this a good circumstantial case to make against this person who is uh, you know, as you said, developmentally disabled. 00:48:29.750 --> 00:48:34.230 And it's it's it's it's just it lingers on that aspect of it. 00:48:34.389 --> 00:48:36.069 And again, all so economical. 00:48:36.309 --> 00:48:40.309 Benizio del Toro, when he steals the gun and ultimately ends up killing himself with it. 00:48:40.389 --> 00:48:42.710 Um, we have the Keystone cops set up. 00:48:42.789 --> 00:48:47.429 So it's not shocking that one of those cops could actually have his gun removed by a suspect. 00:48:47.670 --> 00:48:57.989 The whole thing, I think, again, packs a lot of interesting information, concepts, and concerns, all in the service of the story that we're being told. 00:48:58.149 --> 00:49:00.230 And so again, just so nicely done. 00:49:00.710 --> 00:49:01.750 It is well done. 00:49:01.829 --> 00:49:09.029 And and again, the contrast between Aaron Eckhart is the one who conducts the interrogation of Misha del Toro, he talks him into uh admitting the crime. 00:49:09.109 --> 00:49:15.109 I cannot imagine in any world where that interrogation would hold up in a court of law, just for the record. 00:49:15.269 --> 00:49:23.989 Um and you know, Nicholson's watching it on sort of closed circuit TV, and he is he is so offended by the way this this is going, and he doesn't believe any of it. 00:49:24.149 --> 00:49:25.509 And again, this gets to my point earlier. 00:49:25.589 --> 00:49:26.710 This is a by the book detective. 00:49:26.869 --> 00:49:33.909 He's a good detective, and he's interested in solving the crime, finding out who actually did it, not just not just getting a win. 00:49:34.069 --> 00:49:52.069 And you see the end of when the interrogation Eckhart looks at the camera and does this sort of you know cheering that he that he got the guy to admit what he had done is such a contrast, I think, that the you know, it's a generational contrast almost between the detective who cares more about just getting a confession than actually solving the crime. 00:49:52.389 --> 00:49:56.149 Um again, Bicher Dotoro kills himself. 00:49:56.389 --> 00:50:03.029 And we we so just as fast forward a second here, we go, you know, as I mentioned earlier, Jerry tries to figure out what actually happens. 00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:21.909 He's convinced that there's a serial killer, doesn't go on his vacation, and instead he decides to um uh drive sort of around the area where these crimes have been committed, and he finds somewhere in the middle of where these three murders have committed that he that he these earlier crimes, a gas station owned by Harry Dean Stanton, and he buys the gas station. 00:50:22.069 --> 00:50:27.670 Um and it's apparent that he pays well uh over market rate for the gas station. 00:50:27.829 --> 00:50:29.429 He pays m way more than he should have. 00:50:29.589 --> 00:50:29.989 Yeah. 00:50:30.309 --> 00:50:35.670 Because he thinks that by working at a gas station, owning gas stations, he will come across the killer. 00:50:35.829 --> 00:50:41.109 And he believes the killer has this like black station wagon, and he thinks he will see it, and that will allow him to solve the murder. 00:50:41.190 --> 00:50:41.349 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:50:41.509 --> 00:50:47.109 Yeah, the gas station is kind of at the epicenter of this triangle that he's mapped out, which is where all the crimes take place. 00:50:47.269 --> 00:50:53.989 And so it's he thinks it's extremely well located, and the gas station is a good place where you can keep an eye on the black cars coming and going. 00:50:54.230 --> 00:50:59.029 But as I said, it also you mentioned Harry Dean, who has a very it's a very short scene with him. 00:50:59.269 --> 00:51:09.909 But if I I don't think this is a criticism of the movie, but the middle hour of this movie is a series of Jack having one-on-one scenes with the great actors of our time. 00:51:10.069 --> 00:51:12.710 And you know, each one of them almost stand alone. 00:51:12.869

--> 00:51:15.909 And in that sense, it is a little kind of theatrical. 00:51:16.149 --> 00:51:25.750 They're all excellent, uh, but they're it it it is serial in that way, not serial killer, but kind of serial one-on-one scenes of great acting. 00:51:26.069 --> 00:51:31.909 Yeah, by the way, I think we've I think Carrie Dean Stan has been in more films that we've discussed this podcast than possibly any other actor. 00:51:32.230 --> 00:51:33.109 That is very possible. 00:51:33.349 --> 00:51:35.109 He's he was in Tulane Blacktop. 00:51:35.269 --> 00:51:36.789 Um what else was he in? 00:51:37.109 --> 00:51:37.989 He was in Straight Time. 00:51:38.309 --> 00:51:38.789 Straight Time. 00:51:39.029 --> 00:51:39.909 Yeah, he's in a lot of films. 00:51:40.230 --> 00:51:41.190 But he tends to show up. 00:51:41.509 --> 00:51:42.389 He does show up a lot. 00:51:42.469 --> 00:51:45.429 He does a lot, a lot of these sort of performances, those sort of small performances. 00:51:45.670 --> 00:51:50.309 Um so you mentioned all these sort of cameos, and there's really three of them that I think stand out. 00:51:50.389 --> 00:52:04.549 Uh there is Helen Mirin, who is a psychiatrist who Nicholson meets with and trying to understand um maybe the psychology of the murderer, or trying to understand sort of to get inside the head of of the serial killer. 00:52:05.109 --> 00:52:10.789 There's um Vanessa Redgrave, who plays the little girl who's killed her grandmother who gave piano lessons. 00:52:10.869 --> 00:52:13.989 I think this scene, by the way, I think her performance is just so wonderful. 00:52:14.309 --> 00:52:20.789 And she delivers it with such pathos and such um uh uh sense of tragedy. 00:52:21.589 --> 00:52:23.349 Yeah, it's almost like she's a really great actor. 00:52:23.670 --> 00:52:25.269 It's almost like she's a really great actor, exactly. 00:52:25.509 --> 00:52:32.789 And then there's Mickey Rourke, uh, who delivers a very small performance as the father of another child who was killed and who was still missing. 00:52:33.109 --> 00:52:33.589 Yes. 00:52:33.829 --> 00:52:35.909 Um, this was a maybe a two-minute scene. 00:52:35.989 --> 00:52:36.949 He is fantastic. 00:52:37.029 --> 00:52:41.909 And I I read somewhere this this scene or this performance kind of helped revitalize his career. 00:52:42.149 --> 00:52:49.670 Um he, you know, he was a wonderful actor from the early 90s, did bar flies, some other things, kind of fell off, drugs and alcohol problems. 00:52:49.750 --> 00:52:52.869 Then he then later he did the rest of it, which is I think a wonderful movie. 00:52:53.029 --> 00:52:54.469 But he is great in that little moment. 00:52:54.549 --> 00:52:57.589 And you're right, these are little sort of small cameo performances. 00:52:57.670 --> 00:53:01.269 I mean, this is what happens when you're Sean Penn and you're a and you're a very well-established actor. 00:53:01.509 --> 00:53:03.029 You can call in a lot of favors. 00:53:03.109 --> 00:53:03.190 Yeah. 00:53:03.269 --> 00:53:09.109 And to get Helen Mirrin, you know, to do this like what's two-minute role of Vanessa Redgrave to do it's a very short performance. 00:53:09.190 --> 00:53:10.230 I mean, you're not gonna get that. 00:53:10.309 --> 00:53:13.109 Many other directors are gonna be able to get that, but Penn is able to pull these people in. 00:53:13.429 --> 00:53:16.389 Yes, and I want to say something about almost each and every one of them. 00:53:16.629 --> 00:53:18.710 First, the the Mickey Rourke scene. 00:53:18.789 --> 00:53:24.149 Uh again, I'm gonna get to this eventually, but that character could have stepped out of the crossing guard. 00:53:24.309 --> 00:53:27.750 I mean, that is the most crossing guard character in this entire movie. 00:53:27.909 --> 00:53:30.069 And so I do think these movies are linked in many ways. 00:53:30.469 --> 00:53:31.109 Yes, I agree. 00:53:31.269 --> 00:53:31.509 I agree. 00:53:31.670 --> 00:53:36.789 That's a actually that's a good observation because in Crossing Guard, it's about a story about a man who loses his daughter. 00:53:36.869 --> 00:53:44.149 Um she's killed a drunk driving accident, but you know, uh obviously it's about the pain that he's going through having to deal with with the loss of a child. 00:53:44.469 --> 00:53:49.429 Um And there's also Lois Smith uh makes a small role. 00:53:49.589 --> 00:53:58.869 She is I for uh I'm suddenly blanking on what character she plays, but he has a one-on-one with her, and the reason why this is so special is of course she played Jack Nicholson's sister in five easy pieces. 00:53:59.190 --> 00:54:08.949 And so just to see her enter the building and have her a one-on-one, or maybe there's two scenes, two short scenes with her and Jack, uh is is a joy, and she's also, of course, wonderful. 00:54:09.109 --> 00:54:13.829 You mentioned how great Redgrave was, but I want to dwell on the Helen Mirren scene. 00:54:13.989 --> 00:54:31.750 I know that's not your favorite, but it is my favorite, and it's really because I think she turns the tables on him a bit, in that he wants to draw on her expertise as a psychiatrist to analyze the drawing and, you know, figure out if perhaps there is credibility to his theory that there's another serial killer. 00:54:31.909 --> 00:54:39.429 And then after she does that, after kind of putting up with his questions for a while, she starts asking him questions, and they're very pointed questions. 00:54:39.989 --> 00:54:41.909 Have you always been a chain smoker? 00:54:42.149 --> 00:54:43.429 Are you sexually active? 00:54:43.589 --> 00:54:55.269 I mean, here is where we get into gnawing and gnawing at Nicholson's own psyche and closer to your interpretation of the movie as less about a pledge and more about his obsessiveness. 00:54:55.670 --> 00:54:56.549 Well, this is the thing. 00:54:56.629 --> 00:55:00.069 I mean, we agree that his character, this movie is about his obsessiveness. 00:55:00.230 -->

00:55:01.589 This is a character study. 00:55:01.750 --> 00:55:07.909 This is about Nicholson's almost like descent into madness in an effort to solve this crime. 00:55:07.989 --> 00:55:11.109 I mean, he buys a freaking this is his he's in retirement. 00:55:11.269 --> 00:55:11.589 Yeah. 00:55:11.829 --> 00:55:12.710 He is retired. 00:55:13.190 --> 00:55:14.710 He buys a gas station. 00:55:15.190 --> 00:55:16.389 And not a nice gas station. 00:55:16.629 --> 00:55:17.829 And not a nice gas station. 00:55:18.069 --> 00:55:19.589 He pays too much money for it. 00:55:19.989 --> 00:55:22.069 It's not near where he lived. 00:55:22.549 --> 00:55:27.269 It's it's not it's within range, but it's not like the town where he lived as a detective. 00:55:27.909 --> 00:55:28.230 Okay. 00:55:28.629 --> 00:55:33.429 And he does this for the sole purpose of finding this killer. 00:55:33.589 --> 00:55:33.989 Yes. 00:55:34.230 --> 00:55:39.190 I mean, that is uh driven more by a pledge he gave to a mother. 00:55:39.349 --> 00:55:44.789 This is somebody who who who has to be proven right, who has to solve the crime, who has to feel needed. 00:55:44.949 --> 00:55:51.750 Now, in this town where he's living, he meets Robin um Wright Penn, who's of course married to Sean Penn. 00:55:51.829 --> 00:55:54.149 Uh, she has a little girl named Chrissy. 00:55:54.389 --> 00:55:59.429 Uh she is uh a single mom and uh her ex-husband is abusive. 00:55:59.670 --> 00:56:11.029 At some point, she comes to his gas station, and uh after being attacked by her ex-husband, he asks her to come live with them at this at the gas station where he's living, bring the daughter. 00:56:11.509 --> 00:56:12.069 She does. 00:56:12.230 --> 00:56:16.869 And you see this kind of like idyllic, you know, kind of life the three of these had. 00:56:17.029 --> 00:56:19.589 He becomes a sort of surrogate father for the little girl. 00:56:19.829 --> 00:56:23.829 He becomes in romantically involved with Robin uh Wright Penn. 00:56:23.909 --> 00:56:29.909 And you sort of see him, maybe he's trying to actually, I don't know, have some sort of normal life. 00:56:30.149 --> 00:56:39.909 But of course, the the desire to solve the crime comes in, comes in and he begins to see Chrissy as as a way he can use her as bait to help sort of solve his crime. 00:56:40.149 --> 00:56:40.949 At least that's how I saw it. 00:56:41.029 --> 00:56:42.629 I'm curious if you had the same sort of view of it. 00:56:43.029 --> 00:56:44.309 Yeah, I did not. 00:56:44.469 --> 00:56:49.349 Uh, and I know that this is a uh reputable read of the film. 00:56:49.589 --> 00:56:57.909 I found enormous sincerity in the development of that relationship, especially when he invites her to live in the house. 00:56:58.069 --> 00:56:59.670 I think that is fully sincere. 00:56:59.829 --> 00:57:06.069 I think his relationship with the girl and with Robin Wright develops organically. 00:57:06.389 --> 00:57:11.670 I think it's important that it is Wright who

initiates their physical relationship. 00:57:11.829 --> 00:57:22.149 And there are so many quiet and beautiful moments uh between Jack and uh Chrissy that I don't think that he has this in mind. 00:57:22.230 --> 00:57:44.469 There's only one hint of this at all, is when they're at the flea market and the little girl is they're picking out maybe dresses for the little girl, and she does get her eyes uh fixed on a red dress, which apparently the serial killer is fond of, and and he does have this line which he says that it it it's not what she usually wears, but it is her color or something like that. 00:57:44.710 --> 00:57:52.069 But I really, I really bought into fully the sincerity of his love for both of these characters. 00:57:52.389 --> 00:57:53.670 I'm gonna push back. 00:57:53.750 --> 00:57:56.549 There's a second thing that he does that's really, really important. 00:57:56.869 --> 00:57:59.109 He builds a swing set for this little girl. 00:57:59.429 --> 00:58:03.190 And he puts it in the front of the gas station, not in the back, in the front. 00:58:03.349 --> 00:58:07.029 And then Robin Roy says to him, why are we putting it in the front of the gas station where everyone can see? 00:58:07.109 --> 00:58:08.309 Why didn't you put it in the back? 00:58:08.549 --> 00:58:12.469 And he says, Well, that we can see it from the the the windows of the gas station, but I don't believe that. 00:58:12.549 --> 00:58:13.589 I don't think anyone believes that. 00:58:13.750 --> 00:58:20.949 He wants the the the the the playground in the front, swing set in the front, because he thinks it'll attract the serial killer. 00:58:21.509 --> 00:58:25.029 So that is that is eminently readable. 00:58:25.190 --> 00:58:30.230 Uh I and I think it's I think it's the uh an accurate and majority view. 00:58:30.469 --> 00:58:40.869 I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I if he was worried about the girl sincerely, the line he gives about if you put her out of sight, you know, she might be in more danger uh from a serial killer. 00:58:40.949 --> 00:58:43.509 He doesn't invoke the serial killer concept to her. 00:58:43.670 --> 00:58:46.149 But you can't see where it's where she is or what she's doing. 00:58:46.389 --> 00:58:50.230 She could she's more easily snatchable from the backyard than the front. 00:58:50.710 --> 00:59:03.190 I uh yes, maybe, but she's but it's by being in the front, it's more likely to attract the serial killers to drive by to see her, to want to talk to her, to communicate with her. 00:59:03.349 --> 00:59:14.389 Because in the in the the original original murder, right, the the little girl had come to be friends or friendly with this person named the wizard, and the wizard given her treats. 00:59:14.710 --> 00:59:18.789 And so they developed a relationship before he uh he murdered her. 00:59:18.949 --> 00:59:21.349 So I think I I it's weird. 00:59:21.429 --> 00:59:23.909 I to me it's it's not even a question, that's what he's doing. 00:59:24.069 --> 00:59:27.429 He's trying to he's trying to attract the serial killer to his gas station. 00:59:27.829 --> 00:59:28.789 I think that's right. 00:59:28.869 --> 00:59:41.349 Uh I and again, and I think that that's I don't have good ammo to come back and say that's wrong, but I do feel his sincere love for that child is significant. 00:59:41.509 --> 01:00:05.750 And when we get into, you know, the the late sequence, there's one person who he has his eye on as the suspect, and he becomes extremely, we're getting a little ahead of ourselves, he becomes extremely agitated when he fears that she might be in danger and and behaves in a a a you know really over-the-top way to try and correct that what would have been this grievous error on his part. 01:00:05.989 --> 01:00:13.509 I really think he cares about that girl intensely and not simply as as as fate to lure the bad guy. 01:00:13.670 --> 01:00:16.789 And by the way, in the flea market, she goes missing. 01:00:16.949 --> 01:00:27.109 And again, the cinematic storytelling here, maybe they're just throwing, you know, movie nerds a bone, but she has a balloon and then she loses the balloon and the child is missing and the balloon is floating in the air. 01:00:30.629 --> 01:00:45.349 Trevor Burrus So this is you know, just a tip of the hat to the child murderer in Fritz Lang's M from 1930, in which we have that image of the child with the balloon, and the balloon is then seen floating, and we know that that child is now dead. 01:00:45.670 --> 01:00:50.389 Fortunately, this child is just has just wandered off in the flea market and is safe. 01:00:50.629 --> 01:00:50.710 Right. 01:00:51.029 --> 01:00:53.269 But but the it's that danger. 01:00:53.589 --> 01:00:56.149 Uh and I think that yeah, I don't know. 01:00:56.309 --> 01:01:08.629 I'm I know I'm in the a thin minority here in thinking that there is much, much more substance to his relationship with both of them than than the the read of the film generally decides. 01:01:09.190 --> 01:01:11.269 I think you I don't disagree really with your take here. 01:01:11.429 --> 01:01:24.389 I mean, I think that I think it's very fair to s to say that he ha has developed a real affection for the girl as not I mean affection as a fa as a father and the affection for Roberoy Penn. 01:01:24.629 --> 01:01:26.549 But I'm not sure that's mutually exclusive. 01:01:26.629 --> 01:01:30.549 I don't I think that can be true, and I think he can also be obsessed with solving the crime. 01:01:30.710 --> 01:01:44.309 I mean, I do think there is a read of this film where the in he he goes out of his way to develop a rapport with the girl so that she will tell him about her interactions with this person that he thinks is a serial killer. 01:01:44.549 --> 01:01:46.629 I mean, I think that is one way you could read it. 01:01:46.869 --> 01:01:53.989 And it is interesting that she tells him about meeting with this person and he doesn't tell her mother. 01:01:54.149 --> 01:01:55.829 He

doesn't mention any of this to her. 01:01:55.989 --> 01:01:57.269 I mean, he keeps it a secret. 01:01:57.429 --> 01:02:00.309 I mean it's it's well, he doesn't keep it a full secret. 01:02:00.469 --> 01:02:04.069 I mean he arranges to have 42 cops surround the Rendezvous. 01:02:05.829 --> 01:02:07.589 Yeah, from Robin Wright, yes. 01:02:07.909 --> 01:02:09.509 He keeps it a secret from the mom. 01:02:09.829 --> 01:02:10.309 Yes. 01:02:10.549 --> 01:02:12.949 But he but you're talking about putting the child in danger. 01:02:13.029 --> 01:02:17.269 That child is surrounded by, you know, kind of 50 cops with high-powered rifles. 01:02:17.989 --> 01:02:20.629 But there's no putting her in danger, right. 01:02:20.710 --> 01:02:23.269 I mean, he's using her as bait, though. 01:02:23.509 --> 01:02:24.549 He's using her as bait. 01:02:24.629 --> 01:02:29.349 And so I think you could argue that and I uh maybe I didn't make this maybe it wasn't clear about this. 01:02:29.509 --> 01:02:38.949 I think what he's doing is developing a rapport with her so that she will she will um tell him about these interactions with the wizard, with this potential serial killer. 01:02:39.109 --> 01:02:44.469 He wants to develop a trust with her so that she he can then use her as bait, which he does at the end of the film. 01:02:44.549 --> 01:02:47.429 And he doesn't tell this to her mother. 01:02:47.829 --> 01:02:57.750 I may be a sentimental sucker, but you show me three scenes of him reading stories to her in bed, and I just I am unable to code those as ruthlessly instrumental. 01:02:58.230 --> 01:02:59.190 You know, that's totally fair. 01:02:59.269 --> 01:03:02.869 And like I said, I think it's I as I said a second ago, I think it's one way to read what happens. 01:03:03.029 --> 01:03:22.149 I think that really what's going on here is that he is, I think you're actually I kind of lean more to your interpretation that he um has developed this this relationship with the child and the mother, and yet his desire to prove himself correct about the serial killer, that that motivation is simply too powerful for him. 01:03:22.230 --> 01:03:32.230 And it overwhelms, you know, his happiness, and that maybe is an or is I should say overwhelm this sort of idyllic domestic life that he has created. 01:03:32.469 --> 01:03:35.989 And that might explain why he's twice divorced, right? 01:03:36.309 --> 01:03:46.949 I you know, that he his job and his need for this kind of validation takes precedent over his you know relationships, right? 01:03:47.190 --> 01:03:50.629 And that certainly comes true through in the end where he just totally goes off. 01:03:51.190 --> 01:03:51.269 Right. 01:03:51.509 --> 01:03:53.589 But even like, look, opening scene, right? 01:03:53.670 --> 01:03:56.389 He's in, he's in, he's he's ice fishing by himself. 01:03:56.549 --> 01:03:58.549 He drives to the party by himself. 01:03:58.789 --> 01:04:04.230 At the party, we see a, as I mentioned this earlier, a very

important scene where everyone's dancing, having a good time, interacting with each other. 01:04:04.309 --> 01:04:05.509 He's alone. 01:04:05.750 --> 01:04:09.670 He doesn't seem to really even have a close relationship among his colleagues. 01:04:09.909 --> 01:04:14.549 Every interaction at that party is people congratulating him and patting him on the back and then moving on. 01:04:14.710 --> 01:04:19.429 There's no sort of longer conversation he has with somebody, no friend that he seems to have. 01:04:19.670 --> 01:04:23.429 He he every relationship that he has with these people is like sort of professional. 01:04:23.589 --> 01:04:34.549 And and you could argue there's lots of reasons why that might be, but one way to look at it is that he is his job has is his life, his need for to serve, to be needed. 01:04:34.710 --> 01:04:35.509 That is his life. 01:04:35.670 --> 01:04:43.429 And that ultimately overwhelms this apparent happiness that he has achieved with Robin Penwright and her daughter. 01:04:44.309 --> 01:04:47.670 Yeah, I think, again, I don't think I'm disagreeing with you on that. 01:04:47.829 --> 01:05:09.029 I just prefer the my own reading of it is that he loses it more toward the end and that the development of his relationship with both Wright and with Chrissy uh is generous and sincere and develops and and it it makes it all the more tragic that he loves. 01:05:11.670 --> 01:05:12.949 I think it's consistent with what I just said. 01:05:13.029 --> 01:05:15.190 I think I think we're sort of on the same page here. 01:05:15.429 --> 01:05:27.829 Um so as time goes along, this individual played by um the wonderful actor Tom Noonan, he uh he comes in contact with Chrissy, he gives her little um uh gifts. 01:05:28.069 --> 01:05:37.750 Uh he is uh uh a minister, he is trying to get her to, I guess, you know, accept Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior and what have you. 01:05:37.989 --> 01:05:42.309 Um and he is, we assume, yeah, the killer. 01:05:42.629 --> 01:05:46.149 Yes, as they say on NYPD Blue, I like him for the serial killer. 01:05:46.389 --> 01:05:51.509 I I like him for the serial killer, but we will get to that in a second because it is that's an important, there's an important point here. 01:05:51.670 --> 01:05:51.909 Yeah. 01:05:52.230 --> 01:05:57.509 So she uh tells Jerry that she's supposed to meet with this wizard at a park. 01:05:57.829 --> 01:06:00.309 And Jerry then calls those old colleagues. 01:06:00.469 --> 01:06:03.909 This is the one thing in the film that I found I didn't buy. 01:06:04.149 --> 01:06:12.949 He calls Aaron Eckhart, his old buddies at the police department to come and to sort of surround this little girl for what they think is his meeting with the serial killer. 01:06:13.269 --> 01:06:18.549 And then you got about like, you know, six or seven SWAT uh agents around with sniper rifles. 01:06:18.949 --> 01:06:20.069 Walkie talkie is everything. 01:06:20.309 --> 01:06:21.269 Walkie talkie all the things. 01:06:21.429 --> 01:06:31.589 I didn't I didn't really buy that they that they would have agreed to do this after they basically viewed him as a drunk and a crazy person, just a couple of me, you know, an hour earlier in the film. 01:06:31.750 --> 01:06:38.549 Um but they do, and then of course, you know, she's there with her dolls and she's waiting for this person to show up and he doesn't show up. 01:06:38.789 --> 01:06:41.429 Um and The SWAT team leaves. 01:06:41.509 --> 01:06:46.789 And that's when you certainly see Jerry begin to lose his mind. 01:06:46.949 --> 01:06:47.190 Right. 01:06:47.429 --> 01:06:47.670 Right. 01:06:47.909 --> 01:06:51.269 I mean, really kind of go through like a psychotic break. 01:06:51.349 --> 01:06:51.670 Yeah. 01:06:51.909 --> 01:06:55.829 He first he sort of he criticized the SWAT team because they're in the wrong location. 01:06:55.909 --> 01:06:56.149 Yeah. 01:06:56.309 --> 01:06:57.909 Which doesn't really make a lot of sense. 01:06:58.069 --> 01:07:00.389 And you can see the SWAT team's like, what are you talking about? 01:07:00.469 --> 01:07:01.750 We're all we're surrounded here. 01:07:02.309 --> 01:07:05.589 And he he the obsession has like taken over him. 01:07:05.750 --> 01:07:07.109 And I'm curious what you thought about that. 01:07:07.269 --> 01:07:08.789 Did that seem discordant? 01:07:08.869 --> 01:07:14.389 Like, did you buy that that evolution of his character into sort of almost like psychosis? 01:07:14.710 --> 01:07:15.670 Oh, that's tricky. 01:07:15.750 --> 01:07:15.989 Right. 01:07:16.149 --> 01:07:18.710 There for me, it's a discontinuity. 01:07:18.869 --> 01:07:50.389 And it comes up in a in that final or that near-final scene that I know you love so much when uh Robin Wright confronts him with what's happened, and and she basically accuses him of the interpretation of the movie that that I don't share, which is that the he had been using them from the very start, and she's furious with him, and he is unable to articulate any defense of what he's done because he's gone. 01:07:50.629 --> 01:07:50.869 Right? 01:07:51.029 --> 01:07:54.549 If it was me, I would have said, you know, no, that's that's not what happened. 01:07:54.629 --> 01:07:56.710 You're missing, you're misunderstanding what's happening here. 01:07:56.949 --> 01:08:01.670 And he is almost mute in his response and and stupefied. 01:08:01.829 --> 01:08:06.549 And that's when you know that whatever there was of him, there no longer is. 01:08:06.789 --> 01:08:32.310 And so it's it's a devastating scene for me uh for for many reasons, but also because since I believed in his kindness and I believed in his love for them, when she comes and lays him out in that way, uh, and he is unable to even articulate the most basic defense of his behavior, and it it leaves her thinking that she's rushed. 01:08:32.470 --> 01:08:32.630 Yes. 01:08:32.949 --> 01:08:33.190 Yes. 01:08:33.430 --> 01:08:35.109 And that's heartbreaking to me.

01:08:35.350 --> 01:08:42.069 Also, by the way, this one this is this this is this is a sort of a minor point, but she she tells she's yelling with and Nicholson. 01:08:42.149 --> 01:08:46.789 She tells Chrissy to get in the car, uh, and then and then she so she can't see Chrissy. 01:08:46.869 --> 01:08:50.390 I'm like, you know, that's an odd choice. 01:08:50.550 --> 01:08:50.710 Yeah. 01:08:50.869 --> 01:08:51.029 Right? 01:08:51.109 --> 01:08:53.270 She has to even let her take her dolls, take her bike. 01:08:53.350 --> 01:09:01.829 She but she's like, but go to the car by yourself where I can't see you for a minute while uh there might be a serial killer coming while I argue with with you know with with Jerry here. 01:09:02.470 --> 01:09:03.590 Odd decision on her part. 01:09:03.829 --> 01:09:12.229 I mean, I love that scene, but I I this is the this is maybe what holds me back to me great for me, is that the uh his full break. 01:09:12.389 --> 01:09:21.829 I don't know that I uh it feels almost almost a little bit trite for him to go into this kind of psychotic mode. 01:09:21.989 --> 01:09:24.949 Like he can't, you're right, you can't articulate to what he's doing. 01:09:25.109 --> 01:09:26.229 He can't explain it. 01:09:26.389 --> 01:09:29.189 Like you do see him sort of begin to lose his mind. 01:09:29.349 --> 01:09:40.949 I think a couple scenes before this where he thinks that she's that she goes with this this guy played by Tom Noonan to the church, and he thinks that he has that that Noonan has killed her or is gonna kill her. 01:09:41.109 --> 01:09:47.909 He drives there obsessively, he drives his car, he pulls his gun, he has his gun out, he gets, he runs into the church and everyone's like, What's this guy doing here? 01:09:48.069 --> 01:09:48.309 Right? 01:09:48.470 --> 01:09:50.069 I mean, it felt over the top. 01:09:50.710 --> 01:09:59.109 I know it's a setup or comes at the end, but it kind of came a little bit, for me at least, uh maybe out of left field, or I didn't totally feel as organic for the film. 01:09:59.510 --> 01:10:06.069 Well, it does show, you know, his descent into kind of obsessiveness, but also delusions, right? 01:10:06.229 --> 01:10:15.510 And again, I think it speaks to his sincere love for the child because out of his eyeshot, she's taken off with this guy that he thinks is the serial killer. 01:10:15.670 --> 01:10:20.389 He has a kind of a vision in his mind of her death. 01:10:20.550 --> 01:10:23.750 And when he drives there, he doesn't just drive there, he off-roads, right? 01:10:23.829 --> 01:10:32.229 There's some cattle that that blocks the road, and so he just drives through some fences like he doesn't have a vision of her death. 01:10:32.389 --> 01:10:37.269 He has a vision of Noonan, you know, exulting in what he has done. 01:10:37.430 --> 01:10:37.590 Right? 01:10:37.750 --> 01:10:39.029 That's what he sees in his mind. 01:10:39.189 --> 01:10:40.630 He sees the blood, he sees Noonan. 01:10:40.789

--> 01:10:46.149 So again, it speaks the idea that this person's gonna go could get away with this crime because because Nicholson didn't stop him. 01:10:46.309 --> 01:10:53.670 He seems more pro troubled by this person killing somebody again than he is about the person who he's going to be killing, which is Chrissy. 01:10:53.829 --> 01:10:57.989 Maybe that's too I'm looking at it too closely, but that's kind of how I saw that as well. 01:10:58.550 --> 01:11:02.470 I just took it as envisioning his worst nightmare. 01:11:02.949 --> 01:11:03.189 Yeah. 01:11:03.430 --> 01:11:04.149 That's possible too. 01:11:04.229 --> 01:11:04.389 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 01:11:04.470 --> 01:11:12.949 And lingering on a dead, bloody child is in my bag anyway, so I'm I wasn't upset that instead he showed us kind of the bloodstained walls of the church. 01:11:13.269 --> 01:11:13.430 Right. 01:11:13.829 --> 01:11:22.550 And I get that, but I do but they of course they do show uh this is interesting you bring this up because the movie doesn't shy away from showing uh dead children. 01:11:23.349 --> 01:11:23.510 Right. 01:11:23.750 --> 01:11:25.750 I mean, it's two things I want to mention. 01:11:25.909 --> 01:11:33.989 First is the scene uh when you see her, you do see her the the original murder, you see her lying bloodied on the ground. 01:11:34.470 --> 01:11:38.470 But then later in the film, and I think that's really interesting, he's looking at at photographs. 01:11:38.550 --> 01:11:38.869 Yeah. 01:11:39.269 --> 01:11:42.069 Um and they sh and I was very surprised by this. 01:11:42.309 --> 01:11:45.349 He actually sees the photographs of these dead children. 01:11:45.510 --> 01:11:45.670 Yeah. 01:11:45.829 --> 01:11:48.869 I feel like that's not they I did that didn't need to be in there. 01:11:48.949 --> 01:11:49.109 Right. 01:11:49.349 --> 01:11:49.989 And it was. 01:11:50.229 --> 01:11:56.630 And in fact, in one scene, he I visits this detective in another town where the m where this child child had been murdered. 01:11:57.269 --> 01:11:58.470 He steals the photo. 01:11:58.710 --> 01:11:58.949 Right. 01:11:59.109 --> 01:12:05.670 And we see him with the photo in the he's driving it when he drives this to visit Mickey Rourke, he has a picture on his front seat. 01:12:05.750 --> 01:12:08.470 It's not of Mickey Rourke's child, but it's of the child. 01:12:08.550 --> 01:12:15.269 So in other words, he is not sh we don't shy away from showing dead children and bloody children, children who have been who have been harmed. 01:12:15.670 --> 01:12:17.029 He doesn't in that scene at the church. 01:12:17.349 --> 01:12:18.229 So two quick points. 01:12:18.389 --> 01:12:23.430 One is the scene where he gets the photo from that detective in I think it's in Monash County or something. 01:12:23.829 --> 01:12:24.710 Yeah, Monash County. 01:12:25.510 --> 01:12:36.069 That's another small piece of business about the ambiguity, the ambiguity of Penn's attitudes about law enforcement, because that guy, that guy is perhaps the scariest guy in the whole movie. 01:12:36.470 --> 01:12:37.909 I mean, not a joke. 01:12:38.389 --> 01:12:39.989 He's a cop, not a serial killer. 01:12:40.309 --> 01:12:40.550 Right. 01:12:40.789 --> 01:12:41.029 Right. 01:12:41.189 --> 01:12:42.630 So I don't know who that actor is. 01:12:42.710 --> 01:12:44.470 He's wonderful in that little performance, actually. 01:12:44.869 --> 01:12:44.949 Yeah. 01:12:45.029 --> 01:12:45.189 Yeah. 01:12:45.510 --> 01:12:45.750 He is. 01:12:45.909 --> 01:12:47.029 He's creeped me out. 01:12:47.109 --> 01:12:48.149 Uh 100%. 01:12:48.630 --> 01:12:48.949 100%. 01:12:49.590 --> 01:12:54.949 But the other is I I'm more with you on the photos than than the first dead child. 01:12:55.109 --> 01:13:00.710 I thought the they they did a decent job of showing only what they needed to show with the first dead child. 01:13:00.949 --> 01:13:05.430 The discovery of the body, we see the horror on the boy's face, and then he runs away. 01:13:05.829 --> 01:13:09.750 And they that could have easily given us a close-up shot of the dead girl. 01:13:09.909 --> 01:13:14.309 And they do when they do show her, they to some extent they have to show us something. 01:13:14.389 --> 01:13:16.789 And I thought it was it didn't bother me. 01:13:16.949 --> 01:13:18.550 Where it was the photos that he collects. 01:13:18.869 --> 01:13:19.590 The photos are worse. 01:13:20.069 --> 01:13:20.309 Are worse. 01:13:20.550 --> 01:13:21.029 Right, exactly. 01:13:21.189 --> 01:13:22.149 Worse and more graphic. 01:13:22.309 --> 01:13:25.909 Even though there are still photos, it that seemed gratuitous, yes. 01:13:26.389 --> 01:13:27.029 I agree with you. 01:13:27.109 --> 01:13:37.029 And I and it and I remember when I was watching it, it almost it stayed there's a shot of a little girl on a like a med medical examiner's table. 01:13:37.269 --> 01:13:41.829 Anyway, and it really stays on that shot for longer than I think is absolutely necessary. 01:13:42.069 --> 01:13:42.630 Yes. 01:13:43.029 --> 01:13:46.470 And again, I think there is I don't know. 01:13:46.789 --> 01:13:52.869 I did I did find it interesting that it does that, but in this imagined death scene, he does you don't imagine Chris. 01:13:53.109 --> 01:13:56.389 Maybe you maybe depend the decision's like you come to know this child. 01:13:56.550 --> 01:13:56.710 Yeah. 01:13:56.949 --> 01:13:57.189 Right? 01:13:57.349 --> 01:14:00.869 You don't want to see this child in in harm's way or harmed or hurt. 01:14:00.949 --> 01:14:01.590 I I get that. 01:14:01.750 --> 01:14:02.389 I get it. 01:14:02.630 --> 01:14:18.229 Um anyway, so so we get to the end of the film, which is an interesting thing happens here because as Eckhart and the SWAT team are driving away, they come across this burned-out vehicle that looks like it's a station wagon that Jerry had been obsessed with. 01:14:18.789 --> 01:14:31.109 And um we are led to assume that this is Noonan, the

the the priest, it's his it's his character, and he had got in a car accident, hit by a truck, and he had he had died in this horrible fire. 01:14:31.349 --> 01:14:42.069 And the implication is that Jerry was right, that he had actually solved the murder, and this person actually was the killer, and he just didn't he never knew that he had actually figured out that he was correct. 01:14:42.470 --> 01:14:45.029 Yeah, I mean that's that's definitely the case. 01:14:45.269 --> 01:14:56.550 Well that guy in the black car who burned to death is the serial killer, and he was going to meet her and serial kill her, but he had this hot catastrophic car accident, and that's why he didn't show. 01:14:57.029 --> 01:14:59.029 But here's the important part. 01:14:59.269 --> 01:15:01.590 I read this uh article about this. 01:15:01.750 --> 01:15:13.189 So Tom Noonan, who plays the sh the killer, who plays, I'm sorry, the priest, he says there's another guy who's in a Mercedes that gets burnt at the end, and people tell me that I look like the guy in the Mercedes. 01:15:13.430 --> 01:15:14.149 That's not me. 01:15:14.389 --> 01:15:14.949 It's not him. 01:15:15.029 --> 01:15:17.750 I'm the I'm the nice guy in that movie, at least in the script. 01:15:18.309 --> 01:15:19.510 No, no, that's absolutely correct. 01:15:19.670 --> 01:15:22.630 The the religious guy, Tom Noonan, he is not the serial killer. 01:15:22.949 --> 01:15:24.149 How do you know that? 01:15:24.550 --> 01:15:28.550 Because it's a different guy that she met. 01:15:29.189 --> 01:15:37.189 We see him, she meeting him in a couple of encounters, Tom Noonan, but then she reports back to Jack Nicholson about this other guy, and he what was it? 01:15:37.269 --> 01:15:38.550 What did he give what gifts did he give? 01:15:39.029 --> 01:15:40.949 These little porcupine like chocolates or something. 01:15:41.269 --> 01:15:44.149 Yeah, the same candies that he gave to the other girl that he killed. 01:15:45.109 --> 01:15:49.750 I don't know the little porcupine um symbol on the car that's burnt to a busk. 01:15:50.229 --> 01:15:57.430 But I think I think the assumption is that that is actually Tom Newton, but it's not Oh, I I never thought that was Tom Newton. 01:15:57.750 --> 01:15:58.149 That's interesting. 01:15:58.229 --> 01:15:58.710 You never thought that. 01:15:58.789 --> 01:16:09.349 No, I think that was the big head fake of the movie because it it's so easy for us to think it's him, and we don't like him, you know, at all, but it's it's uh it it it's the it's this other guy. 01:16:09.430 --> 01:16:11.510 But this other guy, he's the guy. 01:16:11.670 --> 01:16:20.470 I mean, when we see Tom Noonan interacting with the girl, Chrissy, he does not do all the stuff that old serial killer did with the other girl. 01:16:20.630 --> 01:16:21.590 But this guy did. 01:16:21.670 --> 01:16:29.109 He used the same language, he was the same presence, he was the same treats, he was the same arrangements, and Nicholson's character recognizes this. 01:16:29.269 --> 01:16:32.470 And again, I don't think he's excited that he's has bait. 01:16:32.550 --> 01:16:35.189 I think he's totally freaked out in that scene. 01:16:35.349 --> 01:16:38.309 And that's why he goes and runs and tells his colleagues about it. 01:16:38.389 --> 01:16:48.309 And he has a pretty decent set of evidence to say, you know, basically, holy shit, uh, this guy is following exactly the same pattern and script. 01:16:48.389 --> 01:17:01.590 And you guys, and and it is a stretch perhaps, but based on his the combination of his long-standing reputation as a great cop, plus the new evidence that's able to bring them, basically about the porcupine stuff, I think it was compelling. 01:17:01.750 --> 01:17:02.789 And they did him this favor. 01:17:03.029 --> 01:17:03.750 Maybe it's a stretch. 01:17:04.069 --> 01:17:13.109 But it's interesting that you you saw that because to me it always struck me that like that that it was trying to make the case that it was it was Noonan who was the sh who was the killer. 01:17:13.349 --> 01:17:15.750 I think that's how most people have interpreted the film. 01:17:16.229 --> 01:17:20.949 I think it's a classic head fake that the killer isn't the killer the movie is is nudging you with. 01:17:21.269 --> 01:17:24.229 I think the head fake is that is that is that he was right. 01:17:24.389 --> 01:17:24.550 Yes. 01:17:24.869 --> 01:17:25.989 There was a serial killer. 01:17:26.149 --> 01:17:26.309 Yes. 01:17:26.550 --> 01:17:30.949 And the serial killer, rather than show up at the at the location, actually dies in a horrible fire. 01:17:31.269 --> 01:17:31.430 Yes. 01:17:31.510 --> 01:17:33.109 That's the more important thing anyway. 01:17:33.430 --> 01:17:33.590 Right? 01:17:33.829 --> 01:17:37.670 Now that's the more important thing anyway, that there is a serial killer. 01:17:37.750 --> 01:17:39.989 He put the pieces together, he was exactly right. 01:17:40.149 --> 01:17:44.069 If he wasn't in that car crash, he would have come to try and kill her. 01:17:44.229 --> 01:17:50.229 The cops would have been there, they would have caught him, everybody gets patted on the back, and everybody lives happily ever after. 01:17:50.470 --> 01:17:50.550 Right. 01:17:50.710 --> 01:17:52.869 But if he dies in the car crash, right. 01:17:53.189 --> 01:17:55.109 So you get these two gut punches, right? 01:17:55.189 --> 01:18:08.229 One is that Robin Wright rails on him, and he's unable to defend himself from it, and it shatters their entire relationship as she articulates, you know, that everything was so great, and you had to go do this crazy thing. 01:18:08.389 --> 01:18:14.949 And then gut punch number two is, and then the movie cuts away and says, Oh, and by the way, Jack was exactly right. 01:18:15.109 --> 01:18:20.949 Uh, you know, he had the whole thing together, but Jack will never know that, Wright will never know that, the cops will never know that. 01:18:21.029

--> 01:18:29.430 Instead, he's just this blithering idiot, you know, six or eight months later in front of his husked-out gas station that's no longer even functioning, muttering and drinking. 01:18:29.590 --> 01:18:39.029 It's again, I thought, you know, you think that that Gene Hackman at the end of the conversation is left, you know, bereft and and as a as loose as having lost everything. 01:18:39.189 --> 01:18:40.630 But that's not even close to this. 01:18:40.789 --> 01:18:43.430 This is this is out 70ing the 70s. 01:18:43.670 --> 01:18:44.470 I I kind of agree. 01:18:44.550 --> 01:18:45.750 And I was struck by something interesting. 01:18:45.829 --> 01:18:51.189 Like I read about Roger, I read a lot of reviews of this, of this movie, people take on this film. 01:18:51.349 --> 01:19:03.590 And I came across like all of these a few podcasts, there aren't many podcasts about this, and a lot of articles and some reviews on places like Reddit and Letterboxd, where people just complained that the ending was so unsatisfying, right? 01:19:03.670 --> 01:19:05.989 We don't we don't know for sure who the killer is. 01:19:06.069 --> 01:19:09.109 Uh Jerry doesn't actually find the killer, doesn't know that he's right. 01:19:09.269 --> 01:19:11.590 And I I just I was like, what is wrong with you people? 01:19:11.670 --> 01:19:17.989 Like that's that's what makes the film great, is that you is that the gut punch of the movie is what is makes this so effective. 01:19:18.229 --> 01:19:23.989 That I I mean, to me at least, and because it really is story about Jack Nicholson's, like I said, descent into madness. 01:19:24.069 --> 01:19:25.029 It's a character study. 01:19:25.189 --> 01:19:29.109 The fact that he doesn't doesn't know that he's correct is almost to me irrelevant. 01:19:29.349 --> 01:19:30.309 It's not about that. 01:19:30.389 --> 01:19:34.710 It's about him, how his obsessions overwhelm him and overtake him. 01:19:35.029 --> 01:19:47.189 I agree, but for me, it me of all people, it was just a little rough in emotionally speaking, in that the classic ending of a 70s film is the male protagonist lost and alone. 01:19:47.349 --> 01:19:47.590 Okay. 01:19:47.750 --> 01:19:50.710 And so that's that's what you have in this movie as well. 01:19:51.029 --> 01:19:58.389 But at least most of the more 70s characters who end the movies defeated, lost and alone. 01:19:58.550 --> 01:20:04.389 Even think about Jack at the end of Chinatown, at least he knows what happens. 01:20:04.949 --> 01:20:05.189 Right? 01:20:05.750 --> 01:20:07.750 See, I don't think it I don't think it matters. 01:20:07.829 --> 01:20:10.229 I even if he had breaks his heart. 01:20:10.949 --> 01:20:11.989 It's heartbreaking. 01:20:12.149 --> 01:20:21.430 But even if he had solved the murder, and this gets to Maya's sort of critique of the film, or not critique, but my take on the film, even if he had solved the murder, I don't think it gives him peace. 01:20:22.229 --> 01:20:29.349 I think

he would still find some other thing to obsess over, some other uh uh not maybe not a crime, but other issue to obsess over. 01:20:29.430 --> 01:20:41.109 That this is he's not able to really function without this desi need to to, as I said before, to be needed, but also to be engaged in in trying to solve some kind of mystery. 01:20:41.269 --> 01:20:55.590 I don't think that he can function I don't I don't think in other words, if he that he had found out, oh, in fact, the the wizard was, you know, I was right and he was killed, that he and Rob and Wright and Chrissy would have had some idyllic, you know, uh uh uh life together. 01:20:55.909 --> 01:21:00.949 I mean and I think that the the larger story here is that even if he's proven correct, he still has lost her. 01:21:01.189 --> 01:21:05.989 He still lost the child, he still lost his relationship because his because his obsession has gotten the better of him. 01:21:06.069 --> 01:21:08.630 Aaron Ross Powell So that's the bone I would have liked to have been thrown. 01:21:08.789 --> 01:21:18.149 I would have liked for him to have some discovery that he was right, and then I would like him to maybe go back to the house or something, and they can close the door in his face, right? 01:21:18.309 --> 01:21:19.189 He can lose it all. 01:21:19.349 --> 01:21:26.869 But I don't know, it's just too much for me that even he has no vindication of you know his own instinct on the crime. 01:21:27.349 --> 01:21:39.109 You know, for the record, the book also ends the same way, where it you know he the main character sort of loses his mind, and then it comes out years later that in fact the the murderer had been killed on the way to to meet the little girl. 01:21:39.189 --> 01:21:40.949 Aaron Powell So it does come out years later. 01:21:41.029 --> 01:21:43.269 Aaron Powell Years later, but but he doesn't know that. 01:21:43.510 --> 01:21:44.149 He doesn't know that. 01:21:44.710 --> 01:21:44.949 Yeah. 01:21:45.029 --> 01:21:49.989 It's it's like well after the fact that that it's discovered that in fact this this was this is who this was. 01:21:50.149 --> 01:21:56.869 I mean the thing that's crazy is like no one even knows in the movie uh that this was this was the killer. 01:21:57.349 --> 01:21:58.229 Yes, exactly. 01:21:58.389 --> 01:22:01.109 So again, I don't need to I I wouldn't have wanted a happy ending. 01:22:01.269 --> 01:22:04.789 Oh my god, if they had solved the case and ran off and lived happily ever after. 01:22:05.109 --> 01:22:07.590 As you say, as you as you would say, catastrophic. 01:22:07.829 --> 01:22:07.909 Yes. 01:22:09.189 --> 01:22:10.630 That's not what I was shopping for. 01:22:10.710 --> 01:22:15.269 I just, I just I I mean, this was just so, so dark, so down. 01:22:15.430 --> 01:22:21.430 I mean, even again, uh as someone who who shops in that aisle, even I was just a little taken aback. 01:22:21.909 --> 01:22:22.309 I don't know. 01:22:22.470 --> 01:22:23.989 I to me it that's interesting. 01:22:24.069 --> 01:22:39.189 And maybe now the the uh uh the f the tables have been turned, but I actually you know the guy who who who who waxes poetic about Steven Spielberg's film, I I love I love the ending of this film more this more than you did. 01:22:39.349 --> 01:22:39.510 Yes. 01:22:39.750 --> 01:22:40.149 I don't know. 01:22:40.710 --> 01:22:42.470 We know how Spielberg would have ended the film. 01:22:43.750 --> 01:22:44.630 Exactly. 01:22:46.949 --> 01:22:51.590 Yeah, they would have gotten back together and maybe have like a a kid together or something like at the end of the day. 01:22:51.829 --> 01:22:52.149 Definitely. 01:22:52.389 --> 01:22:54.069 Oh, I like that touch. 01:22:55.349 --> 01:22:55.989 Yeah. 01:22:56.869 --> 01:23:01.349 No, I look, I just to me it's the it's the it's the perfect way to end this film. 01:23:01.590 --> 01:23:12.470 And I was I was really sort of struck by how many reviews I read that just were like shitting all over this ending um and complaining, really, but it kind of complained that nothing was resolved. 01:23:12.630 --> 01:23:13.750 And the fact that nothing's resolved. 01:23:13.909 --> 01:23:15.510 I mean, to me, that's not what the movie is about. 01:23:15.670 --> 01:23:18.069 The movie's not about finding the wizard. 01:23:18.229 --> 01:23:19.349 That's that's not the movie. 01:23:19.510 --> 01:23:22.309 The movie's about it's a character study of Jack Nicholson. 01:23:22.550 --> 01:23:27.909 And I really think that the movie could only end in one place, which is with him maybe not maybe not losing his mind. 01:23:27.989 --> 01:23:31.430 That part I'm I'm not as I'm not as as fond of. 01:23:31.670 --> 01:23:49.109 I think but of him losing everything, of him being back to where he was at the beginning of the movie, of being alone and obsessed, like focused on his obsessions, yeah, which appear to be drinking, fishing, and um and searching for serial killers. 01:23:49.510 --> 01:23:49.909 Yes. 01:23:50.149 --> 01:24:02.389 And I again, just for me, I I just needed a tiny bit more just for his character alone, even though, of course, I want him to be defeated, you know, bereft and alone at the end of the movie. 01:24:02.550 --> 01:24:05.029 But this is, again, I've said it before, it's still a much. 01:24:05.269 --> 01:24:11.510 However, before we go, I do we haven't really talked a lot about Robin Wright's performance here, which is exceptional. 01:24:11.590 --> 01:24:16.949 And so this is where I'm gonna take the opportunity to just make a reference, a quick reference to The Crossing Guard. 01:24:17.029 --> 01:24:21.029 And I want to mention, so that film I do think has some overlaps with this film. 01:24:21.109 --> 01:24:27.750 It does also involve the death of a child and the consequences of that for characters in the movie. 01:24:27.909 --> 01:24:39.189 And all I want to say about this movie is this the one of the principal characters in the film, David Morse, who is also

outstanding, is the drunk driver who's responsible for the killing of the girl. 01:24:39.430 --> 01:24:53.269 And he's getting to know Robin Wright's character in that movie a little bit, and they have a little disagreement, and he comes to her apartment and he a- he says to her, You said that my guilt was too overwhelming, that you couldn't compete with it. 01:24:53.430 --> 01:24:55.909 And he says to her, What is guilt? 01:24:56.389 --> 01:25:03.189 And she answers him in a way that I think, again, is visual storytelling. 01:25:03.430 --> 01:25:04.069 We need a bell for this. 01:25:04.229 --> 01:25:05.590 Ding ding ding-ding, visual story. 01:25:06.069 --> 01:25:11.670 She puts on uh What a Man, What a Man, the recording by Sultan Tampa, and starts dancing to it. 01:25:11.750 --> 01:25:19.829 And she's you know, such a beautiful woman, and she's so full of joy, and she invites him to dance with her, uh, and he can't. 01:25:19.989 --> 01:25:23.670 And he understands, um, and he leaves. 01:25:23.909 --> 01:25:26.710 And I'm gonna go Ben Gazara on you. 01:25:26.869 --> 01:25:35.750 I I said once that I not a month goes by where I don't think about Ben Gazarra singing, I can't give you anything but love, baby, into that foam booth. 01:25:35.909 --> 01:25:44.149 I don't think a month goes by where I don't think of that scene of her dancing, and I find it uh emotionally overpowering. 01:25:44.470 --> 01:25:47.109 And again, just brilliant, brilliant. 01:25:47.430 --> 01:25:51.109 How do you express an idea in a pure visual form? 01:25:51.430 --> 01:25:54.149 There's the dialogue there is almost irrelevant. 01:25:54.309 --> 01:25:56.550 And it's I I find it stunning. 01:25:56.710 --> 01:26:05.989 And and the movie, The Crossing Guard more generally, which again brings the same people together, Penn and Wright and Nicholson, is much more uneven and I think is much less maturely directed. 01:26:06.149 --> 01:26:12.869 But there are four or five scenes in that particular movie that I think just soar, and that is my favorite one among them. 01:26:13.109 --> 01:26:15.989 There's also a wonderful scene with Nicholson and Angelica Houston in the house. 01:26:16.309 --> 01:26:16.550 Absolutely. 01:26:16.789 --> 01:26:17.269 Oh my goodness. 01:26:17.670 --> 01:26:25.349 That is in some ways kind of a it's about the characters in the film, it's also about the actors who have been in a long-term relationship together. 01:26:25.670 --> 01:26:33.829 Um look, I think the big takeaway in this, I think this is really just that that all of these films have some inconsistencies. 01:26:34.069 --> 01:26:38.470 I Indian Runner is similar too, although I think there's like really amazing stuff in that film. 01:26:38.869 --> 01:26:41.750 But you know, I give Sean Penn a lot of credit. 01:26:41.829 --> 01:26:44.389 He is someone who understands sort of the power of visual storytelling. 01:26:44.470 --> 01:26:49.989 And as we said earlier, the thing the turkey scene, the scene that where the notification is just such a beautiful piece of visual storytelling. 01:26:50.069 --> 01:26:52.949 And there's many scenes like that, you know, in this film. 01:26:53.109 --> 01:27:03.989 I think of just wonderful kind of um where the where the where Sean Penn is sort of trusting the audience to understand kind of what he's trying to get across and not spoon feeding it to them. 01:27:04.149 --> 01:27:06.069 And maybe that's why people didn't like this movie as much. 01:27:06.229 --> 01:27:07.829 Uh I mean that may have something to do with it. 01:27:08.069 --> 01:27:10.229 Uh it's certainly want to be spoon-fed. 01:27:10.470 --> 01:27:13.109 Yes, it's certainly not designed to be a crowd pleaser. 01:27:13.430 --> 01:27:14.069 No, it's not. 01:27:14.309 --> 01:27:18.789 Um and uh you know, uh the thing the last thing I'll say, just you mentioned Robin Robin right pen. 01:27:19.029 --> 01:27:22.389 I want to just give a shout also to Hans Zimmer, who did the score for this movie. 01:27:22.470 --> 01:27:23.349 It's a wonderful score. 01:27:23.430 --> 01:27:24.789 I think it's just beautifully crafted. 01:27:24.869 --> 01:27:26.550 I think it really works well in this movie. 01:27:26.710 --> 01:27:29.670 Um captures sort of the melancholy of this movie. 01:27:29.829 --> 01:27:34.149 Um and I'll just finish up by saying I look, I this this is a movie I'm really glad we could talk about. 01:27:34.229 --> 01:27:38.789 There it's funny, there are not really many podcasts that have talked about this film in such depth. 01:27:38.949 --> 01:27:40.149 I looked and I couldn't find any. 01:27:40.309 --> 01:27:44.470 I did find one, I have to mention I did find one podcast in which they shuttle over the film. 01:27:44.630 --> 01:27:58.069 And one of the people on the podcast, I won't say what it is because I don't want to disparage them by name, but like they literally one of the takes from this one of the people on the podcast was that Jack Nicholson is not a great actor, uh, which almost gave me an aneurysm when I heard that. 01:27:58.229 --> 01:28:04.069 Um I think again, you know, this is a movie I'm glad we talked about because I think it is such a rich thematic film. 01:28:04.149 --> 01:28:05.750 I think it's a really challenging film. 01:28:05.909 --> 01:28:08.710 I think it's a 70s film that was made in 2001. 01:28:08.949 --> 01:28:20.309 I think it speaks to, you know, A, Sean Penn real talent as a director, but also Jack Nicholson's I mean, he's an extraordinary talent as an actor, but again, I think his willingness to challenge himself. 01:28:20.550 --> 01:28:26.869 And we talked about this earlier where I think we I think you made an observation that after Chinatown, he didn't challenge himself as much as he had in his early roles. 01:28:27.029 --> 01:28:32.229 And I what really impresses me about this movie, and you can look you can point to Clunker's later Nicholson's career. 01:28:32.949 --> 01:28:50.389 But this movie, and I mentioned again about Schmidt, speaks to an actor who late in his career could have just c you know, could have just uh mailed it in, but really is is is wedded to his art and wedded to making interesting and compelling films and to pushing himself as an artist. 01:28:51.189 --> 01:28:55.670 Yes, I think that's true uh of all of the principal participants in this movie. 01:28:55.909 --> 01:29:03.029 And if we could get another trademark going for our podcast, I think this is a very fine exemplar of, quote, what we want from the movies. 01:29:03.349 --> 01:29:03.909 Absolutely. 01:29:04.309 --> 01:29:07.029 You know, it's it's not it's not gonna this is not for everybody. 01:29:07.109 --> 01:29:09.029 Some people I think will be turned off by the ending. 01:29:09.189 --> 01:29:14.949 I think some people will be turned off by, you know, it the pacing can be it it especially in the middle of me can be a little slow at times. 01:29:15.109 --> 01:29:17.750 But to me, this is just a great piece of filmmaking. 01:29:17.829 --> 01:29:19.829 And I'm and I'm so glad that we had a chance to talk about it. 01:29:19.989 --> 01:29:32.630 This is why I wanted to do this podcast in the beginning, talking about movies that that I love, movies that just have stuck with me, that I have been that have been in my head for for for months and years after I saw it, and this movie falls into that category. 01:29:33.750 --> 01:29:35.750 That sounded like a killer ending to me. 01:29:35.829 --> 01:29:38.710 I thought you thought you were I thought you were just done right there. 01:29:39.349 --> 01:29:41.670 Um and on that note, I think we can finish up. 01:29:41.750 --> 01:29:42.710 What do you think, Jonathan? 01:29:42.789 --> 01:29:43.109 Are we done? 01:29:43.269 --> 01:29:43.829 I think we're done. 01:29:44.229 --> 01:29:44.710 I think so. 01:29:44.789 --> 01:29:47.349 I think what they came to say. 01:29:47.590 --> 01:29:49.829 That wasn't a bad way to end it, I think, to be honest. 01:29:50.069 --> 01:29:50.470 All right. 01:29:50.630 --> 01:29:52.869 So uh thank you everyone for joining us today. 01:29:52.949 --> 01:30:03.109 Uh again, if you're enjoying the podcast, please uh leave a comment, uh, give us a thumbs up, buy us a cup of coffee, tell your friend, shout it out from the rooftops, and um we'll see you next week. 01:30:03.269 --> 01:30:03.829 Alrighty. 01:30:04.149 --> 01:30:04.630 Bye bye.