บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Lewis Pinner: Creative ITC

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WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.799 You'd rather be kind of lucky than than than good. 00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:05.759 But I think you know, the harder you work, the luckier you you get. 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:10.720 You get, you know, into somebody and then you actually realize they didn't even do the deal. 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:16.160 You get those spidey senses, the vibe, the chemistry as to whether what they're saying is is accurate. 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:23.359 Because every time you make a bad hire, so you're probably looking at like a year and a half, maybe even two years of lost revenue. 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:26.719 And if revenue doesn't come in, you know, it's it's on me. 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:27.760 Yeah, I own it. 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:29.679 There's some life in the old dog yeah. 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:44.000 Today on Tax Sales Network, we're joined by Lewis Pinner, Chief Revenue Officer at Creative ITC, a rapidly scaling managed service provider backed by private equity. 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:54.000 Lewis spent over 13 years at Cisco, rising to leadership before senior roles at JP Morgan Chase, Pure Storage, NetApp, and Vicada. 00:00:54.399 --> 00:01:01.119 Lewis brings over two decades of experience across technology vendors, scale-ups, and financial services. 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:09.920 Now at Creative ITC under CEO Keith Alley, he's leading sales, pre-sales, and marketing as a company expands internationally. 00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:16.239 Across his career, Lewis has operated in one of the most transparent feedback environments in the world. 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:19.040 Every quarter you hit your number or you don't. 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:20.560 There's nowhere to hide. 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:30.799 He's built teams, made high-stakes decisions, evaluated hundreds of people, and watched how reputation works when everyone in an industry knows everyone else. 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:46.480 Today we're diving into what separates the people who rise to the top, how you spot who's real versus who's just talking a good game, why your network is most important, why it's a valuable asset, and what it takes to build a career that lasts. 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:54.400 We're also exploring why he made his move to creative ITC and his thoughts on how AI is shaping or reshaping a sales culture. 00:01:54.560 --> 00:02:03.760 This is for anyone in sales, sales leadership, or trying to understand how trust, reputation, and credibility actually work in a world where everyone claims they're winning. 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:06.640 So, Lewis, welcome to the Tech Sales Network. 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:08.639 Um, thank you for joining us. 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.560 We'll start by talking about your career and where you're at currently. 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:14.240 So walk us through the decision. 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:16.879 What um what got you to creative ITC? 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:19.919 Yeah, and then look, it's it's it's definitely an interesting one. 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.159 I've known Keith for a number of years. 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:24.400 We both worked together at Cisco. 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:33.039 Uh we were systems engineer and account manager many, many moons ago, flying all around the world, selling to uh a bank. 00:02:33.199 --> 00:02:37.360 Um, we always got on well, um, commercial and and technical. 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:46.560 We both probably got a bit of commercial in us, both put a bit of technical in us, but it it just worked well and you know, been friends kind of ever since. 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:48.159 Um always been there. 00:02:48.319 --> 00:03:02.240 We'd talk to Keith about the business, and I think certainly over the last couple of years with the investment from LDC um and kind of needing to scale the business to you know to the next level, really. 00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:05.039 So I'm gonna call it this is Creative 3.0. 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:12.080 Um, we needed, or he, you know, the business needed um a CRO in there. 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:23.840 So we've spent a year kind of discussing it, where the business wants to go, meeting with with LDC, meeting with with the chairman, um, and just agreeing what good looks like. 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:25.360 So a three-year plan. 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:33.039 Um, and really, I think for me personally, it was just being involved at a board level within an organization. 00:03:33.199 --> 00:03:44.639 I've always worked for American companies, you know, you could be on a let's say an Amir board, but you're not really in the boardroom and you're not making the you know the key decisions. 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:53.759 Now, you know, making like the key decisions, you're part of um a board of you know, a really fast-growing organization. 00:03:53.919 --> 00:04:03.759 And actually, you know, for me personally, you know, at some point I would like to try and go for the for the next you know big job within an organization, but uh this is great. 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:04.639 Oh good. 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.840 The um you have quite a niche vertical in the AEC market. 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:10.240 Yeah. 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:12.080 Is that something that drew you to them? 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:13.280 Yeah, I 100%. 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:16.959 I think like specialization is kind of absolutely key. 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:33.839 Um, you know, our knowledge of like the AEC market, the applications that exist in there, how you build infrastructure to work uh to make those applications work, to make people more productive, to give a better user experience, has just kind of stood us in really good stead. 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.079 So AEC market's been great. 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:42.000 Um, we've you know, now in the energy market as well, so we're working really well into that. 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:57.360 And then we're actually looking at kind of like adjacent markets where you know they've got like high

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um let's say infrastructure needs to be able to provide, you know, that to be able to provide the applications to do their jobs. 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:02.879 So things like automotive, aerospace industry are like some of the other markets that that we're looking at. 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.120 You've all you've just answered my next question to be like. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:12.160 I was just curious to see if if you were almost going to double down on that vertical, or there was options to expand into other areas. 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:20.160 So the the way those automotive companies, like you just said, operate, it's probably very similar to the construction companies and engineering, is it? 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:27.759 Yeah, they're definitely, you know, it's like high-intensity workloads, needing to keep data for you know long, long periods of time. 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:32.160 But actually, look, we are still scraping the surface within the AEC market. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.839 We are at no means like saturated, you know. 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.759 So certainly kind of in the European market that we work in, great. 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:45.519 We've recently, as you know, expanded in into the US market, but we're we're still scratching the surface. 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:51.600 It's a massive like TAM for us, and um, we'll continue to like really drive hard into AEC. 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:52.639 Yeah, absolutely. 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:55.120 And you just mentioned the US expansion. 00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:59.199 I forgot to ask, where is your US office or where are you based? 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.879 Yeah, so US office is in um Houston in Texas. 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:09.519 So, you know, the capital of like the energy markets, we've built like a really strong team out there. 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:12.720 Um, it's like a startup, really, with within Creative. 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:25.199 So we're taking all the knowledge that we have as an organization that's been built up over 15 plus years, and we've you know put that down into Houston and we're you know expanding out in there. 00:06:25.279 --> 00:06:38.720 It's really exciting because it it's it's like the the the good old days of kind of you know picking up the phone, going out, having conversations with senior folk within uh energy organizations and looking to see how we we can help them. 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:40.240 It does sound very exciting. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.120 It's uh it probably takes you back to the early days, doesn't it? 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:45.759 It's that like you said, it's a startup within a bigger business. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:46.079 Yeah. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:07:05.360 So you have that, you probably have that nice mix of you know, dealing with more enterprise or more sort of strategic level stuff in the UK, and then spending time with the US team, yeah, hands-on, on the phones, yeah, booking appointments, etc., doing the old school, if you like, I suppose, to get it to where the UK is now. 00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.040 Yeah, I mean, like we we are a global company already, right? 00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:17.040 So we've got you know 12 data centers around the world, we've got a number of customers already out in the US already. 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.759 Um, but actually just having that local presence and just really expanding there is is great. 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:36.079 And if I look at like the operation and kind of when you go out, you start on zero, which is it's exciting, but it's also you know nerve-wracking because of course you've got a plan, you want to hit the plan, the investors want to see you hit the plan, it's a big investment. 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:48.560 Um, and actually, you know, we are we're doing really well, like really pleased with how the team are doing, pipelines building, starting to close customers, um, and just yeah, really bolstering out that that part of the business. 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:50.079 Yeah, and it's interesting. 00:07:50.240 --> 00:08:03.040 I know we we touched on it before we started recording, but a lot of companies, uh as mentioned, that grow into other areas geographically will just go in and buy another company, acquire another company. 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.240 It's interesting that you guys have started from scratch. 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:06.639 Yep. 00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.480 Was there a reason behind that? 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:13.680 Um it is it look, it's it's a good, it's a good question. 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.560 Um suppose there's no right or wrong answer, is there, realistically? 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:23.120 No, but but I mean to to go out and buy a company out there looking at like tens of millions. 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:23.839 Fair point. 00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:32.080 Whereas we can kind of go out there with a you know a much smaller budget, kind of dip our toe in the water. 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:36.799 Um, you know, we've moved some staff over there from the UK as well. 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:40.080 So you know, we're not completely starting from scratch. 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:52.080 We had done you know our homework and started to build the pipeline in in the UK before we made the you know investment into things like offices and and hiring like more local staff as well. 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:56.480 Um, but look, we we know it's gonna work out there. 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:04.480 Um, you know, and and who's to say there may be an acquisition in the future, but I think we had to go out and organically prove it. 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:12.000 Um you know, acquisitions will be coming, but it's um I would say it's gonna be in the European market to start with. 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.080 Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.600 You moved so salespeople out there from the UK. 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:18.159 Yeah. 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.320 Probably your tried and trusted

guys that you've worked with for a while. 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:23.679 Tried and trusted ladies, yeah. 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:25.200 Tried and trusted apologies. 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:25.679 Yeah, indeed. 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:27.279 Yeah, tried and trusted ladies. 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:42.879 So they're out there being the face of creative ITC, um, doing exactly what you had them doing in the UK, just in the in the US, which is which is probably a a nice bit of peace of mind for you, knowing that you they they get the job done. 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:43.759 Yeah, 100%. 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:48.240 Look, they you know they they don't need to ramp into the company. 00:09:48.320 --> 00:10:02.240 They know, you know, our process is, how we work, they know the portfolio, they know kind of you know the what the ICP is, what the kind of target persona is that they need to go and speak to within a customer base. 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.639 So the ramp periods you know into the country should be much quicker. 00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:13.600 Plus, also, you know, we've hired some great local talent as well, which can help with the local market and understanding that. 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:18.159 You've just looped me in perfectly to the next topic by using the word talent. 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:30.799 Um I think the last time, the last time we spoke, or I know you've definitely used the word incestuous when when describing the the MSP or general sales market. 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.440 What um what what do you mean by that? 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:42.320 Obviously, the word is quite obvious, but is it as incestuous and reputation-led as as people think, or what, what's your opinion of it? 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:48.000 Yeah, I mean, look, I'm gonna say I was really fortunate to have 13 years at Cisco. 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:59.279 It's an amazing company, and actually my network there that I built out in that 13 years, you you know, that company, people have just gone everywhere, right? 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:01.679 So that's that's kind of like one part of your network. 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:16.240 Another part of your network is you know, you just whether it's the the partners um you know that that you've worked with, like the VARs, the MSPs, those people, you've kind of built that out in the customer base, you've kind of built out a network there. 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:20.960 And then the technology other technology vendors that that you've ended up working with. 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:26.240 So whilst the IT industry is a huge industry, like everybody knows everybody. 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.679 So, you know, if someone was to kind of call you and say, Hey, what do you think about this person? 00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.120 Yeah, you're probably one or two steps removed from them. 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:46.320 Um, you know, you only really give an opinion on someone that you know um and know, you know, well, otherwise, you know, I'm always

the person that's gonna say, Hey, look, I don't know them well well enough. 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:49.519 But I think, yeah, reputation is kind of absolutely key. 00:11:49.759 --> 00:11:56.240 And you know, certainly in hiring, you want to make sure that that person has got a good reputation. 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:11.440 When you're um when you're evaluating talent, how do you because I'm sure obviously you've you've hired numerous people and hopefully more good than bad, of course, but you have some some bad hires, it's it's just how it works, unfortunately. 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:21.279 But yeah, how would you evaluate talent so through so deciphering someone who's actually very good against someone who's just talking a good game? 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:23.519 Because it's very hard. 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.039 We do it every day. 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:29.440 But from your perspective, how would you how do you try and do that? 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:31.360 Is it like sort of reference-led? 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:34.879 So do you lean on peers that you've seen that they've worked for before? 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:38.320 Or I suppose like what's your way of evaluation, I suppose. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:42.320 So I actually always think like a recommendation's always the best thing. 00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:55.919 So if you've got someone that's great that works for you, and they recommend somebody into the organization, to me that that that's awesome because people generally want good people within their within their company, like they want their peers to be great. 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:07.120 But actually, like if you just start it from kind of scratch, like the CV, like that there's things in a CV where you want them to have like minimum tenures of like three years. 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:13.519 You don't want someone that's hopping after you know less than a year or year and a half with within a role. 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:17.360 Um so I look to make sure people aren't too hoppy. 00:13:17.440 --> 00:13:24.559 I also look to make sure that the the people are from types of companies that that we want them to be from. 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:29.600 So, you know, that they're gonna be a good cultural fit um with us. 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:31.840 So I think that that's kind of like the the key thing. 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:42.000 So if someone sends me a CV and someone's had, you know, year here, 18 months here, nine months here, that that's just I'm not not even gonna meet me with there's normally a reason for it, right? 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:47.919 Uh 100%, and everybody's got every excuse under the again under the sun to do it. 00:13:48.240 --> 00:14:04.639 And then, you know, once I know, let's just say that the person hasn't been hoppy, they come in, and then it's literally just going through a CV, like literally talk me through your journey, um, talk me through kind of like you know, key deals. 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:11.440 So if you if

you're a salesperson, you should know a deal, you know, yeah, into immense detail. 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:22.000 What you tend to find is you get you know into somebody and then you actually realize they didn't even do the deal, they're an overlay part of the business, yeah, they weren't responsible for it. 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.000 So I think that that's kind of key. 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:34.799 And then like the other thing is it's just like you look at kind of like their performance, so you go through like all their performance statistics, and then it's like, what did you earn that year? 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:46.960 And you you're you know, if someone's kind of done a great job, they've had consistently great earnings, they've gone to whether it's you know, presidents' clubs, chairman's clubs, like those types of things. 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:50.960 Um, and they've probably been promoted within their career as well. 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:57.919 Unless they want to kind of stay as an IC or they want to stay as an L1 manager, they will have seen career progression. 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:14.320 So kind of look for all of those things and you know the the kind of things around being hoppy, um, maybe not having earned money, like you're catching them when it's the um earnings versus what what that that they've said said that they've earned. 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:15.120 Absolutely, yes. 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.720 Numbers don't lie, every CFO will tell you. 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:19.759 Yeah, of course. 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:34.000 The um the one thing you just meant, or two things you mentioned there that stood out is when we delve into people's GP figures, for example, and you say, Oh, I did this deal at X worth 500,000. 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:35.120 Great. 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.720 How did that work out? 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:38.080 I did the deal. 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:38.639 Yeah. 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.399 Well, that's a quite a bit of an alarm bell for for us as recruiters. 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:44.240 Well, if I just did the deal, okay. 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:56.879 Talk us through it, and that's a question obviously you asked to delve deeper in, and then you realize they just did the first appointment, or they did the overlay, or they weren't actually really their deal, they just played a part in the project, yeah. 00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:00.080 Um, and then the other part is P60s. 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:02.960 How deep do you go in P60s? 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.080 Do you like their ideal? 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:12.639 So as soon as someone says I'm not happy to share my P60, that's the the that's a red flag, obviously. 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:20.879 Because if they say they uh they've earned X but they don't want to show it, yeah, I would assume that there's obviously a reason for that, and normally it's a negative one. 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:21.440 Yeah. 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.879 So from your perspective, like

how how deep do you evaluate? 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:31.039 Do you go right into the nitty-gritty or do you give someone the benefit of the doubt almost, but you want to see some backup from it as well? 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:44.240 So I I I think people if you've been successful, you kind of I'd like tell tell me a salesperson that isn't kind of proud and doesn't want to talk about how much that exact that they've earned. 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:45.120 Yeah, exactly. 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.879 So I think when you get to it, I mean it's just just some basic questions, right? 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:50.399 You know, what what's what's your base? 00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:54.080 How's how's your your your salary and commission made up? 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:57.360 So you know, let's just say they're on a 50-50 plan. 00:16:57.519 --> 00:16:58.399 Okay, brilliant. 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.039 And you said that you achieved, you know, 120%. 00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:02.559 How did your accelerators work? 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.960 They talk you through your accelerators, and it's like brilliant, cool. 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.960 Yeah, so what what did you take home that that year? 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.079 And if there's like a discrepancy, like you can work it out on a piece of paper. 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.799 Of course, it's like it doesn't actually take that much work, really, is it, does it? 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:27.119 Because they work out their percentages plus their accelerator, yeah, take away their salary, and you've got the if there's a small difference, fair enough, you put it down to sort of they've got a leeway, really, haven't they? 00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:27.359 Yeah. 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.160 But if there's 35, 40 grand, you're like, hang on. 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:40.640 Yeah, and and and I think like, you know, when even when you're kind of going into it and you're sort of like talking through it, might be one or two deals that they've done in a year, talk me through those deals. 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:58.319 And it's like a mini medic review when when you're you're in there of med MedPick now, as everyone calls it, but you're doing doing like a mini-medic review and you're understanding like how they go about selling, how they go about their customer interaction, how they go about like the detail with within a deal. 00:17:58.559 --> 00:17:59.279 Yeah, absolutely. 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.880 And we've gone um, we've mentioned reputation quite a bit as well. 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:06.559 So, how quickly does a reputation follow someone if if they're not delivering? 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:11.839 Like how how many almost chances do people have within roles, like you mentioned? 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:19.519 And this it this isn't kind of specific to the better type, the the the the you know, your more talented salespeople. 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:26.720 This is like the the 18 months or two years, maybe 12 to 24 months job hopper type thing. 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.279 How quickly does that reputation follow them and almost rule them out of the market? 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:32.240 How long does that take? 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:36.160 Does it on a negative side, I suppose, but just out of interest in your opinion? 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:50.880 Yeah, I I look, I think sometimes everybody's probably got one of those jobs on their CV where it just hasn't worked out, whether it's a cultural thing, whether it's like you know, they've had all their eggs in one basket on a particular deal. 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:52.640 And I know where my one is. 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.119 Yeah, and and and and they've just been unlucky. 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.319 Yeah, every everybody's had it, you know. 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:02.079 As they say, you'd rather be kind of lucky than than than good. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:06.559 But I think you know, the harder you work, the luckier you you get in things. 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:14.400 Um look, I think I will always go through and understand why somebody has has left somewhere. 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:29.680 And then I think you know, if if you kind of believe it, and I think you you know, after a number of years of kind of doing this, you get kind of like those those spidey senses, the vibe, the chemistry as to whether you know what they're saying is is accurate. 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.880 And I think that there's always like the the back channel as well. 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.039 Like back channel is like really important. 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:47.200 Like if you've made your decision on someone you think right they're a cultural fit, you've got a network there to go and kind of triangulate what what you've been told and whether that's true. 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:59.279 Yeah, yeah, because there's always I and I think probably in at the level that you set, if you even if you had a call from another CRO that you didn't know, you're always gonna give an honest opinion. 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.720 Yeah, because there's that sort of industry mutual respect, isn't there? 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:03.359 I imagine. 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:04.319 A hundred percent. 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:25.759 I mean, I've been on you know calls before where you know you've kind of believed everything that you've been told, and this was like you know, doing an L1 hire, and I thought, actually, I know someone over there at the company before last year's at like you never called a company that that they're currently at, and you just just have a bit of a you know an informal chat about it, why they leave. 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:36.240 And I just got told this nightmare story, and they were like, I wish I'd known this, and they're like, Do you know such and such that he worked at before me? 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:37.440 And I was like, Oh, I do. 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:39.440 He's like, give him a call as well. 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:55.200 So it's

not just my opinion, and what's that there's a pattern there, and you're like, Yeah, I don't want to be a continuation of that pattern because every time you make a bad hire, it impacts like so just say it takes a year to figure that out. 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.799 That's a year of like lost revenue that you've got, and then you've got to go and hire the next person. 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:08.079 So you're probably looking at like a year and a half, maybe even two years of lost revenue for each bad hire that that you're making. 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:10.640 And when you say it like that, is it's quite scary. 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.960 It it it is especially if you're trying to grow. 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:20.160 Yeah, just say you've got, I don't know, 12 salespeople in an organization and you make two bad hires. 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:29.839 That's a massive percentage of your revenue that you're then putting on the other parts of the business to say, I need you guys to kind of step up and cover that. 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:32.720 You need ever you need the other 10 to be overachieving almost. 00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:33.440 Yeah, yeah. 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:43.039 And and and that I think look, culturally, you want to set up a you know a culture within a business where people are overachieving because you know, success follows success. 00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:48.480 And you know, if it gets out in the industry that everybody's doing well, people want to be part of that journey. 00:21:48.559 --> 00:21:54.079 You know, if everybody's not doing well, everybody's struggling, people don't want to join those types of organizations. 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:56.319 No, of course, and then it just affects your culture. 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:56.720 Yep. 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:01.759 Then you become a revolving door, and then it's then then you're in uh Uh choppy waters, I suppose. 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:09.200 Just going back to the one thing you mentioned about the double checking through the back channel and getting a reference. 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:19.759 Was that when you were on that call, was there anything that stuck out as an alarm bell, or was it like a just uh a sixth sense if you like to go, hang on, I should do this? 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.960 No, they're they're they're very straight talking conversations, I think, at that level. 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:32.559 It's no dancing around the handbags, it's really like this is what we're you know, we're proposing, this is the role. 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.960 Do you think this person would be a good fit? 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:37.039 It's literally as straightforward as well. 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:46.480 No, but the the reason you checked, was that because of like a hunch or something the person said in the interview, or was it just no, I this is part of my job, I need to do my due diligence. 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:55.920 I think you just have to, it's like a check sum, anyways, like every hire that that you make, if you've got the ability to do it, you should just do it. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:57.839 Yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. 00:22:57.920 --> 00:23:05.440 Yeah, I was just curious to see if there was something said person had said, or you just know what I'm gonna check because that's my job. 00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:07.839 Yeah, yeah, it it it it's it's it's my job. 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:13.839 Right, you know, ultimately, and especially here, you know, it's in it's in the title, you know, Chief Revenue Officer. 00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.880 I I own revenue. 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:18.559 Yeah, and if revenue doesn't come in, you know, it's it's on me. 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:20.000 Yeah, I own it. 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:27.200 Um, you know, so if I'm sat in a board meeting and we're not performing where we need to perform, then that's on me. 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:28.480 Yeah, no excuses. 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:34.160 The CEO or the board don't ask about the the hire, they ask you why they haven't hit target. 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:35.119 Yeah, yeah, 100%. 00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:38.559 It doesn't go any further than you, so you you're owning the people in the board. 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:39.519 They don't want the detail. 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:41.759 If they wanted all the detail, then they don't need me. 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:43.119 Yeah, yeah, fair point. 00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:46.400 I suppose on a on a more positive note, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:49.119 And hopefully we will be more positive. 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:55.279 Um, in your experience, the good guys, yeah, guys and girls, when I say guys, I do refer to both. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.759 Um, but in your experience, the good guys, what do they do differently to rise through quickly? 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:09.359 And like you see, these the big hitters come come straight out of uni and they're account directors within four, five, six years, and they've done that really progressive, successful journey. 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:09.599 Yeah. 00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.079 What are they doing differently to the people who aren't? 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:22.559 Well, uh so, and look, I'm probably old enough that you kind of didn't necessarily have that progression that quickly when I'm when when I first started. 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.079 I think it's like one of the VPs that I first kind of went under. 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.240 He said, you know, you've got to do any job for three years. 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.200 And Cisco is really a big believer in that as well. 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:36.400 It's like, you know, you spend almost like the first year learning the job, you still want you to deliver on that. 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:54.799 The second year, kind of like mastering the job and smashing it out of the park, and the third year, you know, you're still going to deliver, but you're kind of looking for that next role, and kind of that

three or two and a half years, let's say, to three years really gets you the ability to go and have that next conversation. 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:10.640 Like if you're not performing, and you know, what I've probably seen with let's say the sort of like newer generation kind of coming through is like they want every six months to see like some form of progression, whether it's financial or or job title, yeah. 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:16.559 Very and that's probably a sweeping generalization, but do you think the younger generation are less patient? 00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:32.319 Yes, yeah, I a hundred percent, but also I think it is on you know us as kind of leaders to is not all of it is like a promotion in terms of right, you know, you're going from account manager to senior account manager, you know, in six months. 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.640 Like it's just setting the wrong expectation. 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:39.599 Like you can't learn a job and be really good at it that quickly. 00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:53.599 So, you know, part of it is there's a load of softer stuff that comes through with like whether it's to coaching or getting them, you know, whether it's an internal mentor or an external mentor, just making them making them the best at what they can be. 00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:03.119 Yeah, it's interesting you say that because uh one of the old firms we used to work for, they all of their promotions were based off revenue. 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:03.519 Yep. 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:06.160 So obviously recruitment, you do X amount. 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:06.640 Yep. 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:25.359 And these guys would come in and they go from trainee to senior within a year because they were hitting these numbers, and then what we were finding was after 12 months, these guys weren't actually senior, they were seniors by numbers, but not by um experience. 00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:31.920 Yeah, they couldn't actually go out and win a client and go from zero to the deal, do the full sales process. 00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:35.839 Yeah, they were doing the numbers, but they didn't actually know how to do it properly. 00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:38.799 They weren't senior, they've been there a year, 18 months. 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:46.000 So they changed it, had to change it because they were paying lots of people on senior salaries for having less experience than what they needed. 00:26:46.160 --> 00:27:02.960 So it's um yeah, that it's very interesting why they changed it because they needed to then put presentations and they were almost interviewing people then to actually measure their knowledge to ensure they did actually know what a senior needs to know, if you like. 00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:09.920 Um AI in this modern industry, this modern generation now. 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.000 How are you finding that's impacting people? 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:24.079 I know we we spoke about it previously, and you mentioned that 30% is gonna be AI, um, but it's

a difference between is it 30% less work or being 30% better? 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.519 Uh 30% better all day, every day. 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:40.640 Um, I think the guys and girls that have you know learning AI, learning how to be more productive with the tools are just gonna be 30% better than than others. 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:50.559 Like the people that I think are using AI to do less work will just always be your kind of serial kind of underachievers. 00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:53.440 Like that, but uh I think it's really exciting. 00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:03.279 Like what you used to take, I don't know, when you go into a a client or look at you know a potential target client, and you could spend days researching it. 00:28:03.440 --> 00:28:06.960 Now you can do that in kind of like an hour, yeah. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:16.799 And you can be really competent, really start to build out kind of like a sales campaign that you can test the water on very, very quickly. 00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:18.960 And there's just just so many tools now. 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:30.799 And I think, yeah, what well, what you just hit the nail on the head for an example of that 30% being better or doing less work, it would be it's taking you an hour or two to research the client. 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:40.880 But some people will say, I'm still researching, buying themselves more time for half a day, for example, whereas that other side will go done it, bang, let's move on to the next one type thing. 00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:51.119 Yeah, product uh like productivity, like your your top, you know, your top 1%, your top achievers will just use this just to be more productive, yeah. 00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:57.039 Um, you know, more overachievement, earn more money, hit the nail on the head. 00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:58.319 That's took the words out of my mouth. 00:28:58.480 --> 00:28:59.839 It's that that's it, isn't it? 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:01.759 Earning 30% more, great. 00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:45.680 Yeah, and ideally, yeah, and and look, and that and I'm just looking at it from a from a sales perspective, um, but you know, like deploying kind of like AI in certain parts of the company as well, I think is is like really interesting for us, and that that is a huge productivity play, and like you know, Keith and um sort of I suppose our our wider boards, you know, like we are huge proponents of it because we we we want to be, you know, we want to be the the number one MSP, we want to be kind of we're not gonna be bleeding edge because what we don't want to do is to kind of you know put our customers in harm's way, but we want to be the the leaders in this and be kind of I think the most efficient MSP that's out there. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:54.880 Yeah, it's interesting because the next question was how have you implemented or how are you working with AI because it's clear that it's not going anywhere. 00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:02.319 So you have to, every business has to work with it, use it to the best of their ability, I suppose. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:05.119 And how does that what does that look like for you at Creative? 00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:07.200 Are you of course you're using it? 00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.400 Yeah, and and and look, it it comes from the top, right? 00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:16.799 Um, with with Keith, he's a huge proponent, you know, he's uh a serial tinkerer, is what I would say. 00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:24.240 So he's been building some you know great applications, great dashboards also um with within the organization. 00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:28.319 So, you know, we can start to measure lots of different things. 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.920 Um, you know, if you can't measure something, then you can't manage it. 00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:34.480 So, you know, we've baseled all of that. 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:36.559 Um, that's kind of key. 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:37.759 What else have we been doing? 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:42.079 We've actually set up a dedicated AI team in the organization. 00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:42.720 Interesting. 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:54.480 And so we've taken like you know, through various parts of the organization, bought it all under one person, and we've got a slate of work that needs to be done where we are going to. 00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:01.759 I mean, we we've got a pretty high level of automation already, but you know, this is just taking it to the next level. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:08.880 Um so AI, you know, it's not a case of will we be doing it, it's just a case of you know where we won't be doing it. 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:17.119 I mean, it's gonna be all over the organization, but in a very controlled manner, and that's why we we've set up a dedicated team for it. 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:18.319 Brilliant. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.640 If you can't measure something, you can't manage it. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:21.440 I love that. 00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:23.519 If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:24.880 Yeah, that's brilliant. 00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:32.480 Yeah, because there's plenty of um areas out of our business that we we can't measure too much. 00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:38.160 You can, but you have to dive really deep to be able to measure them, like uh in mails on LinkedIn. 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:43.359 You have to go into LinkedIn, go into someone's profile, find how many messages they've send. 00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:49.200 Might be worth looking at a uh set of dashboard or something like that that sort of into one place. 00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:50.960 We can have a we can have a chat. 00:31:51.039 --> 00:32:12.480 So we we we do like a scoring of like each individual person with within the sales teams, including not all sales leadership, including myself, exactly like you know, how many emails we're sending, how many teams meetings we're doing, how much time we we we spend on on teams, how many meetings we organise ourselves

compared to how many meetings we just attend. 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:16.640 And you you can extrapolate kind of someone's activity. 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:18.720 It's not it's not being big brother, right? 00:32:18.799 --> 00:32:21.839 This this is more you use it from a coaching perspective. 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:28.319 Like if I look at our top five people that have got these called hustle score, top five hustle score, yeah. 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:28.720 Guess what? 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:29.440 They're our top five. 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:31.839 Of course, top five is just no coincidence, is there? 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:36.079 More activity, yeah, leads to more pipeline, more pipeline you've got. 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:38.240 Sales funnel, you're just filling it better. 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:39.759 Yeah, it's interesting as well. 00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:43.279 You say it's not big brother, because there's two ways of looking at it. 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:47.440 From my perspective, I would implement something like that to be less micromanagement. 00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.279 Yeah, because you can just go, yeah, that's fine, no worries, they're fine. 00:32:51.680 --> 00:32:59.119 Or you use it from a coaching perspective and you can then explain to people why they're near the bottom and the person who's done this is near the top. 00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:00.960 And it's in black and white, then isn't it? 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:07.519 Yeah, it's it's I think like over the years, like you you get your spidey senses as to why someone's doing well or someone's not doing well. 00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.880 This just puts the next level of data behind it. 00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:13.039 So it becomes a data-driven discussion. 00:33:13.119 --> 00:33:24.720 So like when you're sat down with someone, let's just say that that they're not performing well, you can kind of like look at stuff and just be like, hey, look, you know, just so you know, this is our top performer, and these are this is what they do. 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:26.720 This is what you do. 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:29.519 Um, this is where I think you you do really well. 00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:32.160 If you could, you know, do some of this as well. 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:34.559 This is how I think we get you to performance. 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:34.960 Yeah. 00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:35.599 Yeah. 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:36.960 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:38.319 There's certainly food for thought there. 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:39.920 Maybe we'll have a chat about that afterwards. 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:40.480 Yeah. 00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:44.799 Do you see um early career people in their early sales career? 00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:48.559 Would you see AI as a and I like I can explain it further. 00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:52.160 Would you see AI as a a threat or an opportunity? 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:57.200 And the reason I say that is because currently people are seeing, or AI, yeah, we have to do it. 00:33:57.279 --> 00:33:58.640 This is going to be amazing. 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.480 Or do you think it would breed lazy salespeople? 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:03.599 It's probably a bit of both. 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.079 Yeah, it probably probably is a bit of both in there. 00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:14.559 Um I think it's a really exciting time just with the amount of knowledge that you know AI kind of brings to you. 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:24.800 I think the people that harness it and and not become lazy with it, like you have to check the work that you produce within AI, right? 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:32.159 You have to build, build it in the right way, coach it in the right way, put the right upfront investment in there. 00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:41.280 You know, if you put right two lines of uh of something, throw it through any of the, you know, the the leading uh LLMs out there. 00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:43.280 Buzzword session, for example. 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:48.400 Yeah, yeah, and then you just send that to a to a client and you haven't checked it. 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:50.239 That yeah, that's lazy. 00:34:50.639 --> 00:35:04.800 If you spend the time kind of whether it's you know like building an agent to do something or teaching it, you know, a lot about you, a lot about the organization, a lot about the customer, you're gonna get a better outcome from it. 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.639 And then check the work. 00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:10.000 There's still work to put into AI to get the most from it. 00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:15.920 It's not just gonna magically give you the perfect hundred percent responses that you need to build. 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:22.480 It's uh there's lots of words for it, but building the story, telling them what you really need the outcomes to look like, and then working with it. 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:25.920 Yeah, um, there's obviously a laziness from it as well. 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.599 Um I noticed when recently copy and pasting. 00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:29.920 Yeah. 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:33.679 So you copy from it and moving it into an email, it goes into a text box. 00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:37.280 So when you send it from Chat GPT, it's a couple of lines over. 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.000 Oh, yeah, yeah. 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:39.920 So they're just just obvious things like that. 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:40.639 And it wasn't one. 00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:43.280 I actually did it myself, and it was an internal email, so it was okay. 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:44.800 Um, but we I built it out. 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:46.960 I thought, great, this is brilliant copy paste back. 00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:48.239 Oh no, but I sent it. 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:50.480 I held my hand up and went, sorry guys. 00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:52.639 But get it to use your language as well. 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:53.840 Like it's the language, yeah. 00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:55.199 The language was fine. 00:35:55.280 -->

00:35:59.119 I really like what it was, but I didn't um I didn't put it through. 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.519 Yeah, I just copied the text box and put it across. 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:07.199 So I was just, yeah, where I've told everyone not to be lazy with AI recently and stuff, I've just done it myself. 00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.440 But it was more of a mistake than an intention, to be fair. 00:36:09.599 --> 00:36:17.679 But but but also as well, yeah, like you you you're good salespeople, well, any any salesperson should be out there meeting customers. 00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.360 And at the minute, you know, I'm not saying never say never say never, right? 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:27.760 But um we're not sending out robots, you know, uh to go and see clients. 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:31.519 No, it's um never say never, who knows? 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:36.159 Technology moves fast, but I think that's um quite far down the line. 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:36.400 I think. 00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:42.000 Yeah, I mean look, expenses would go down, there's no one pounding beers, but um Yeah, no, 100%. 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:44.159 An AI robot to go and visit a client. 00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:47.760 Would they they'd have to meet your they'd have to meet your robot then, wouldn't they? 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.400 Because you wouldn't want to meet a robot, like it wouldn't be a human interaction with a robot, would it? 00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:53.039 Well I don't know. 00:36:53.119 --> 00:37:05.039 I mean in in in the good old days, you know, you you you would have like uh your your sales manager and they'd say, you know, you better not leave that customer without having a without having a PO, you know, and that that sent the fear of God up in into you. 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:09.119 Um I think you know an AI robot might take that literally. 00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:11.679 You might have a few calls from customers. 00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:15.360 Yeah, yeah, your robots just started fighting the sales floor. 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:16.639 Great, fine. 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:27.519 Um how you just touched then on um in-person meetings during COVID, obviously they didn't happen for obvious reasons. 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:29.039 How valuable do you find them? 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:33.280 Uh you mentioned obviously you're you're around London this afternoon going and meeting various clients. 00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:33.840 Yes. 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:39.760 I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that you personally see huge value in in in-person meetings. 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:41.840 Obviously, you wouldn't be sat with us now if you didn't. 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:48.239 But how for for the sort of next generation, if you like, and the younger salespeople, everything's done on team. 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.440 Well, not everything, but everything can be done on Teams. 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:54.159 How much would you put a personal being ahead of it? 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:55.599 It it can be, right? 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.239 Everything can be done on Teams and Zoom. 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:03.760 And it and it look, it's great technology, but I think it complements the face-to-face. 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:11.039 Like when you go and meet a customer, there's just so many things that you miss on Teams and Zoom. 00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:17.760 You know, one of it could just be it's a small talk walking away, you know, and you're you're kind of built building some reporting. 00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:30.880 Um, there'll be signals in terms of you know, kind of what they're into, what they stand for, um, you know, that that you just don't get over Teams and Zoom because everybody's got a corporate background or a blurred background. 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:37.280 So you've got no no insight about them and what what makes what makes them tick. 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.159 And then it it's like the rapport. 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:53.039 And then, you know, whether it's within the meeting, they're kind of giving you, you know, some additional stuff that they wouldn't normally give you, like you know, the CIO's told me, told me this, you know, and this this has to happen because of X, Y, and Z. 00:38:53.360 --> 00:39:00.320 People I think are just very cautious on Teams and Zoom because you know, sometimes it's recorded, transcribed, yeah. 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:03.039 You just don't get what you're gonna get. 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.519 And then I find this that, sorry to interrupt, I find this that small talk before. 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:08.000 Yeah, yeah. 00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:11.039 Like it's so valuable, like the things you mentioned earlier. 00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.320 We never would have covered that. 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:12.719 Yep. 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:18.719 You know, there's things you meant, just not not because you not because anyone um gatekeeps it, but why would you? 00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:20.480 You jump on the call, there you are, bang. 00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:26.480 Let's talk about the the job rec requirement that that we're calling about, or you know, how is your travel? 00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:32.239 Stuck in traffic, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, football teams, um, what you're doing on the weekend. 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:38.079 A huge one for me when we're going, especially for a new client, is the office. 00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:41.360 Because people no one ever has a bad office. 00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:45.360 You've probably worked in some offices you haven't liked, as in the building. 00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:52.320 You're never gonna tell a recruiter or a new hire, yeah, but you can tell them, right, we're in we're in Broadgate Tower. 00:39:52.480 --> 00:40:00.239 Like I can say to a candidate they're in Broadgate Tower on the 50th floor, you're looking across London, it's fantastic shirt, tie, you know, belt and braces. 00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:07.440 Or they've got a really cool

office in Shoreditch where you wear flip, you know, flip-flops and a and a t-shirt type thing. 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:14.480 It's very difficult for us to gauge that through a Teams call, um, along with lots of other things, of course. 00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:24.480 Yeah, I think like going seeing a client, especially like we we we sell IT infrastructure, you know, we we we run that for for organizations. 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:33.039 You can go in and you can meet a customer and they can be talking you through like the challenges, what they're trying to achieve. 00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:35.440 And they might just say to you, do you know what? 00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:37.599 Would you like to walk around our data center? 00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:39.039 And you'll be like, Do you know what? 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:39.679 That'd be great. 00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:39.920 Yeah. 00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:43.119 And you know, I've done a ton of those in in my time. 00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:48.320 But you walk around it and you can kind of see by the stuff that's in there just how bad the problem is. 00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:53.280 You'd be like, Oh, okay, I can see you've got this, this, this, and this, okay, and you're looking to do this. 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.000 Brilliant. 00:40:54.159 --> 00:41:00.639 And there might even be a case of sometimes you can be like, Well, I just see you've invested, you know, a whole bunch of money into compute. 00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:06.480 And you'd be like, Yeah, you know, last year we've invested that, and that that's what makes me nervous about doing this deal. 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:15.280 Well, that's why, you know, then we can start to look at things like financial engineering and buy back on compute, and we could potentially use some of that within our environment. 00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:18.800 Um, it's just all those cues you just wouldn't get. 00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:19.840 Yeah, absolutely. 00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:21.280 One just sprung to mind. 00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:27.760 A client recently said, uh, you know, we've got a sales floor, and it's you know, we need to up the energy in there. 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:31.920 I went in and met them, and they were the energy was relatively high. 00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:32.480 It was good. 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:36.719 And I said to them, Look, you you're really energetic as a sales floor. 00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:37.760 Like, don't worry about it. 00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:40.800 This is yeah, this in comparison to lots of others, this is good. 00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:43.199 Yeah, you could see, oh great, thanks. 00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:46.400 Yeah, but like they didn't know, and we can give that advice back. 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:50.800 Like you just exactly the same, just a different, different product, if you like. 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:54.159 Yeah, that would never have happened in uh on a team's corner. 00:41:54.400 --> 00:42:06.559 Well, we we I mean, we we've been going through,

you know, a recruitment process of um salespeople within um within creative, and yes, look, you know, the first meetings always on Teams. 00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:10.480 Um, we do that, but I I want to meet them all all face to face. 00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:12.800 I want to make sure there's that that chemistry, right? 00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.320 It's a two-way interview. 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:20.159 You could interview someone, they could be absolutely brilliant, but there's just kind of like no chemistry. 00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.559 We haven't really bought into one another. 00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:46.719 But what we do is we go in, you know, spend a good hour and a half with them, um, understand about them, you know, them as a as a person, what they're looking to achieve personally, you know, over their life, short, medium, long term, and then career goals, short, medium, and long term, and whether we have the ability to offer that to them as an organization and and just be really honest, right? 00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:48.159 No company is perfect. 00:42:48.320 --> 00:43:09.199 So I tell everybody the warts and alls, of like what we're working on, what we're improving, what's great about the company, and just make sure that there's there's there is that kind of absolute alignment because there's nothing worse than turning up day one, and you know, you've been sold an organization and it's like, oh dear, yeah, yeah. 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:15.599 From and it could be anything, it could be anything from the environment, it could be something as little as parking, like anything. 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:19.280 Um, but you get there and you're like really excited for your first day. 00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:31.199 Oh, yeah, didn't know this bit, or just the chemistry, you know, it's like day one, you you've turned up and um there just isn't the chemistry and there isn't the buy-in. 00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:45.360 And and again, that creates that hiring issue because they come in, they're like, Okay, well, we'll I'll give it three months, and then after that three months, they're then spending three months looking for a new role, and all of a sudden that's affected our revenue. 00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:56.480 And yeah, like you said, you've got that, you've probably got another realistically three months of shall we rehire, and three months of actually hire, and like you said, you're behind then. 00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:10.159 So then you've got your the rest of your sales team doing an Extra person's target between them, but still it's not um yeah, but it all it all stems back to transparency, I suppose, doesn't it? 00:44:10.320 --> 00:44:11.360 I uh a hundred percent. 00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:27.440 And I think you know, if you I'm I'm a hundred percent bought into creative where we're going as an organization, and I'm actually really proud as to where we're going as an organization, and I want to share that with people because I want them to come on that journey with us, right? 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:32.079 You either want to come on the journey or you know, get on the bus, or you don't want to get on the bus. 00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:34.400 And actually, we're fine with people not getting on the bus. 00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.199 We want everybody to want to be here. 00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:42.800 I love that because that's I think you mentioned that to me in our first conversation that was a few months back. 00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:45.039 I don't mind if the person doesn't want to be here. 00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:46.159 That's absolutely fine. 00:44:46.239 --> 00:44:49.599 Yeah, because we need people who are in the journey we're going on, etc. 00:44:49.840 --> 00:44:52.880 We need people who are bought in, not for three, six, nine months. 00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:54.719 We'll talk in four, five, six years. 00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:55.199 Yep. 00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:00.480 Um, and it's yeah, it's something I think that's about the fourth time you said that to me, but it's but it's really important. 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:07.440 Yeah, that that there's kind of like this word, you know, grit, and you want people, like it's not all going to be perfect, right? 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:20.320 It's gonna be some really tough times, and you want to know that when you're in the trenches, you your your team, you know, your team are there in the trenches, they're not going, oh, I didn't I didn't sign up for this one. 00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:28.719 Um, and I think you know, the team we've got today, they're all in the trenches, they work hard, and I know you know we've got each other's backs. 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.119 Yeah, that's it's important, isn't it? 00:45:31.199 --> 00:45:35.440 When things go because it's easy to be a good salesperson when things are going well. 00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:39.039 It's when that's that's a measure of the person, isn't it? 00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.119 When things are going badly, what are you like then? 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:44.800 When when it's back's to the wall and we're against target and we're running out of time. 00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:45.280 Yeah. 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:46.239 What do you like then? 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:51.679 And and and that I think look, that's all part of like I think the interview technique. 00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:54.880 Yeah, a lot of people used to use like behavioural techniques. 00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:03.280 Yeah, I think like understanding someone's character, like some of the tough, yeah, what's the toughest thing you've ever been through in life and and how did you deal with it? 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:03.760 Right. 00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:14.800 And you get some like absolutely amazing stories from from people, and you get a real insight into their character, and you're like, Yeah, I want that girl on my team. 00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:16.239 Or that girl on my team. 00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:17.519 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:46:17.679 -->

00:46:21.760 Would you say personality assessments, the quizzes and things like that, the crew not for you? 00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:26.159 No, I don't I don't I had a funny feeling that was gonna be your answer, to be honest. 00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:30.400 I mean, you know, whether you're an ENTJ, you know, whatever it may be. 00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:31.519 The colours now, I think. 00:46:32.559 --> 00:46:36.159 Yes, yeah, funnily enough, we but they do they have you done one before, by the way. 00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:46.079 So uh believe have we've actually got some scary management leadership um training going on at the minute for all of our like L1 managers, yeah. 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:49.360 And last week, actually, they they just went through all the colour stuff. 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:51.840 And uh I haven't been through it before. 00:46:52.000 --> 00:46:53.360 I was a little skeptical. 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:56.639 Let's just say I would um I I would recommend doing one. 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:57.519 So I did one once. 00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:03.440 There was 20, 20 questions, yeah, four words at the top, four words at the bottom, out of the top line. 00:47:03.599 --> 00:47:07.360 Pick the word that best describes you, at the bottom line, pick the word that least describes you. 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:12.000 That happens on 20 occasions, and it literally then just recites your personality back. 00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:14.719 And you sat there going, yeah. 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.119 Uh this is a bit witchcrafty. 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:21.119 I I went through it with a team, I'm definitely a convert on it. 00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:32.079 Um, so yeah, but it's um yeah, you're taking people out of the business for a day, and um they're like, Oh yeah, you know, I'm the colour blue, and I'm like, Brilliant, okay, so we've spent a lot of pipeline. 00:47:34.159 --> 00:47:35.039 Well, fair enough. 00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:39.039 Um, yeah, just a few things to close off on, really, I suppose. 00:47:39.119 --> 00:48:07.679 For the we ask the same, they are generic questions, but for for the people who are listening who are in their early days of of um of tech sales, 20 how much I won't say how many years ago you started with Cisco, but trying to build your career in tech services, tech sales, what would you give as a bit of advice now, having gone through everything you've gone through? 00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:13.840 Yeah, what would you what was the one thing, main thing or main couple of things that would that you'd pass on? 00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:17.119 Um, so so it's definitely a few things, right? 00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:20.400 I think um you gotta work hard, right? 00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:27.760 There's no easy rides, you know, contrary to what social media says, you're not gonna become a millionaire in six months. 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:29.840 You you you have to work hard. 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:38.239 If you want to work in an organization, understand how that organization works, you know, how kind of decisions are made. 00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:40.480 Um, but work work hard. 00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:44.159 Turn up every day, you know, look look smart, right? 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.760 Look like you want to be part of that business. 00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:51.119 You know, don't rock up in your jeans and trainers. 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:54.079 Um, yeah, look, look the part. 00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.960 Find some mentors like in the business. 00:48:57.199 --> 00:49:06.000 So, you know, who are the people that have done well, who are the people you kind of, you know, there's chemistry with as well, and you you can learn from, right? 00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:12.800 There's this is, I think, the challenge with not even hybrid working, but the whole working at home model. 00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:24.320 If you're a young person, an early career person within um the technology sector and you're working at home, you're not having those watercooler conversations, you're not getting the guidance. 00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.239 So when you don't know how to do something, you're sitting there trying to figure it out. 00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:36.960 And that and that that's that's great, you're trying to figure it out, but actually, you're not getting all of the experience from the other people that are within the organization. 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:41.440 So, like get some mentors, get some external mentors as as well. 00:49:41.599 --> 00:50:14.480 Like, it hasn't got to just be people in in your company and build your network, like invest in that network, and it's not just the people you get on with, it's like going out, it's like going and grabbing that that coffee with someone like for 15-20 minutes, learn all about the organization and you know, bring in in all the different parts of that organization because when you do move up within an organization or you need something, you know, to be able to, whether it's get a deal done, get a decision made, all of those investments in relationships, they all pay off. 00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.519 You can just pick the phone up and people want to help you. 00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:25.679 Yeah, you've you've built your your network over a couple of decades, and what would you how would you recommend doing it now? 00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:37.280 Same ways, same traditional ways like you just mentioned, like how would you recommend to uh to a 23-year-old coming or however old coming out of uni um to but to start building their network? 00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:39.280 I I don't think anything's changed. 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:43.360 I really don't, but it's like being present, being in the office. 00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:50.079 And if something comes up to you, you know, uh they're a grad, they've just started, and they they said, Look, could I get some time? 00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:51.280 Could we grab a coffee? 00:50:51.440 --> 00:50:53.599 I'd like to understand

more about the organization. 00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:55.840 I'm gonna give them that time all day, every day. 00:50:56.079 --> 00:51:01.679 I think half of the battle for for the person is to actually the hardest part is to ask that question. 00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:04.960 The rest of it, then it probably comes back to you. 00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:17.440 But I think that that that's where you you know you you be you be open, kind of have that sort of friendly face, you're approachable, as opposed to, you know, door closed in in an office. 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:27.840 Like some of the the graduates that I've worked with over the years, they've gone on to do like amazing things, like will far outstrip what probably I will ever will ever do. 00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:33.199 And actually, they're part of my network, and and I've I've helped them in their career. 00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:39.679 Um, I'd like to think, you know, maybe maybe one day in in mine I can pick pick the phone up to them. 00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:45.519 But like that network, if I know I've helped someone, they're always gonna help you back, right? 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:51.760 And and that's I think really important is like bringing bringing one another up in there. 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:55.599 So if I can bring someone up on that journey, it's great. 00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:57.440 It's it's it's a good feeling to do. 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:02.079 Yeah, the rule of reciprocity, I think, it is where everything's sort of reciprocal. 00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:09.199 Um, you give something, and naturally people are um sort of naturally feel like they have to give something back. 00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:15.360 Yeah, well, yeah, I'm uh I look, and my wife always says this to me, you know, you don't you don't give to get, right? 00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:19.519 That's the you know, say here's a present, I I expect one back. 00:52:19.840 --> 00:52:23.760 It it's got to feel good, like you know, to to to be that person. 00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:36.719 And and actually, like if you see a grad or someone that's early early in career and you've kind of helped them and they've got that level of confidence, or that they've gone and won a deal, let's say, that you've helped and coached them on, it's great. 00:52:36.880 --> 00:52:38.639 I think it's a it's an awesome feeling. 00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:48.000 So, you know, you you help them on one, then the next one that they're doing, then they're coming back to you and they're they're like buzzing because they're like, Well, I've done this one by myself, and it's like that's fantastic. 00:52:48.159 --> 00:52:56.400 That's literally the reason that you were helping them in the first place almost to get that to give back, I suppose, because you've you've had it, you've had it tenfold. 00:52:56.960 --> 00:53:05.920 I've had some fantastic mentors, whether it's been formal or informal mentors, and that you know, have become great friends over the years as well. 00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:07.599 So, yeah, it's great to do. 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:12.159 What matters the most for you when you look back over everything you've done and going to do? 00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:19.199 What what would be the because obviously you speak passionately about creative ITC, you speak passionately about giving back. 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:23.440 What what matters the most for you if you had to, I suppose, like leave a legacy if you like? 00:53:23.679 --> 00:53:24.079 What? 00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:28.960 Oh, that's uh it's a different thing, it's a good it's a good question. 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:32.000 Uh that's the closing question as well, so you've got time to think about it. 00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:35.280 Yeah, I no, I I've still got years, years in the world. 00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:35.920 Yeah, fair point. 00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:37.199 We're not writing you off yet, don't worry. 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:40.960 Yeah, but there's some life in the old dog yet. 00:53:41.039 --> 00:53:44.320 Um it it it I'll tell you what, it comes up very quickly. 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:53.679 Yeah, like you start your career and you're the youngest person in the room, and you're the youngest person in the room for a very long time, and all of a sudden you turn up and you go, I'm the oldest person in the room. 00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:56.000 Thankfully, at creative I I'm not, you know. 00:53:56.079 --> 00:54:07.280 I've got I've got others there, but um I'd like to, you know, look look back on it, and I feel like at the minute I've worked for some fantastic companies, and there's definitely been a legacy there. 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:16.239 Yeah, yeah, there's definitely something we are doing and building great in creative, and um where that's the legacy, I I don't know yet. 00:54:16.400 --> 00:54:20.880 But I'd like to think the things that I've touched like we've we've done exceptionally well in. 00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:21.920 Brilliant. 00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:23.360 Thank you for coming on. 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:24.880 Hopefully you enjoyed it as much as I have. 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:25.599 Yeah, it's been great. 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:26.880 Yeah, it's cool. 00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:28.719 Cool, nice one. 00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:29.039 Cheers.

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