บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ NYC based Physical Therapist-Dr. James Chung, DPT

36 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:57.640 in New York City, and yes, I currently working inn 37 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:01.480 Outer Network cash based clinic in city located in Alita. 38 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.239 It's called Motive And why where I currently treat right 39 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:06.760 now a lot of runners and durance athletes, a lot 40 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:11.719 of ultra marathon athletes. And it's kind of it's funny 41 00:02:11.919 --> 00:02:14.080 that I'm working with runners because although I was part 42 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:15.599 of Columbia's run Lab, where we did a lot of 43 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:20.560 running analysis with patients. I didn't see myself working with 44 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:25.639 this patient population because I have a strong attachment to weightlifting, 45 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:29.719 Olympic weightlifting specifically because I competed shortly after graduating from college, 46 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:32.879 and I always thought myself as a clinician who's going 47 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:35.120 to be working with strength athletes. But to be honest, 48 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:36.879 one of the things I'm having the most fun with 49 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.599 is bringing my background and strengths to this patient population. 50 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.199 And luckily I'm in a space where I can really 51 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.439 leverage my time with them because it's one on one 52 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:47.960 for the hour. So it's been pretty good. I graduated 53 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:51.680 in twenty twenty two and so far, you know, taking 54 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:53.520 the day by day, No. 55 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:55.560 That's awesome, And I think it's kind of funny. You know, 56 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:57.680 you're early in your career, you've been practicing for a 57 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.159 couple of years, and you're already getting into something that 58 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.439 you didn't envision yourself spending as much time in with 59 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.960 the endurance athletes, and I think it highlights just the 60 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:11.520 importance of we don't really know what we truly like 61 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:14.400 or dislike until you start spending some time doing it 62 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.080 and I think I've been practicing for twelve years now, 63 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:20.879 I've gone through a few different things just in regards 64 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:24.120 to professional interest of where I've found myself spending more 65 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.879 or less time either in the continuing education space of 66 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:32.080 different theories or models or systems and processes that I 67 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.240 thought were more or less beneficial. And then I've also 68 00:03:35.439 --> 00:03:38.639 found myself evolved personally. You know, I'm married, i have 69 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.599 three kids. I've got a much different home life dynamic 70 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:45.479 now than I did when I graduated. So there's certain 71 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:49.280 things clinically just from an x's and of patient care 72 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.199 that I've seen evolve. And then there's certain things professionally 73 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:56.280 and personally of just what I value now in regards 74 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.000 to how I structure my days, how I structure my weeks, 75 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:02.159 the work setting of it's ideal. So it's pretty cool 76 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:04.439 to hear that you're already, you know, kind of dabbling 77 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:07.400 within that within the first couple of years. But going 78 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.439 back into kind of the the PT space and really 79 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:13.759 the clinical space, what would you say, is truly your 80 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:17.399 passion or where have you spent the most kind of 81 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:21.120 either time or just mental bandwidth getting involved with the 82 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:23.920 x's and o's of PT and you know, how how 83 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:26.040 did you run into that or how have you developed that? 84 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:33.040 Yeah, I mean I've always had an interest in communication 85 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:38.240 and in learning in general, so just pedagogy and just 86 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.040 I was actually originally going to be a physical education teacher, 87 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:44.319 you know, and I went to a public high school 88 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:46.120 here in New York City, And to be honest, in 89 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:47.839 terms of what I thought was like the end goal 90 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:49.839 for me at the time, in terms of what I 91 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:53.480 envisioned myself doing, was going to college and becoming pizzet teacher, 92 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.000 because some of my physical education teachers throughout my youth, 93 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.720 you know, really made a lasting impact on my engagement 94 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:07.040 with physical fitness and also their ability to help me 95 00:05:07.399 --> 00:05:10.600 have fun while learning at the same time. And I 96 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:14.079 was I've always been a big proponent of, like of 97 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:16.079 education as a whole, and I think that's why I 98 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.040 really pursued higher education going in physical therapy school and 99 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:21.720 in terms of like going to college, I initially started 100 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.560 my career path as an educator, but then I quickly 101 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:28.720 pivoted to kind of shooting for physical therapy once I 102 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.519 realized that there was something above, you know, I figured 103 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:33.360 I wanted to do

something a little bit more and 104 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:36.879 I wanted to blend what I was doing athletically with 105 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.959 my interest in training, and I thought that it just 106 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.279 better suited my what, you know, my preferences and what 107 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:45.000 I wanted to do at the time. And so you know, 108 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:49.000 I I'm really big on education and when I started 109 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.560 as a physical therapist and honestly, matter of fact, when 110 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.120 I started personal training. I was personal training for a while, 111 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:57.800 maybe for like about six or seven years prior to 112 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:02.240 going to PET school, and when I found the most 113 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:07.240 success as a coach and as a trainer, those moments 114 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:09.360 really had a lot to do with how I was 115 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:11.279 able to communicate with my clients and how I was 116 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.879 able to help them better understand their goals, put together 117 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.240 plan for them to achieve them, and also finding this 118 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:20.680 balance of collaboration between the two of us. And I 119 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.639 think it's something that I've really taken with me and 120 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.120 everything I do now as a clinician, and obviously if 121 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:27.519 anything is even more important given that now I'm a 122 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:31.439 healthcare provider. It's something that I really pride myself in 123 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.199 and that ultimately led me to explore I'll kind of 124 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:38.279 dive a little bit deeper into motor learning, and I've 125 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:39.879 done a couple of talks about this, and it's something 126 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.120 I was very, very interested in even while I was 127 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.480 in PT school and just you know, I remember listening 128 00:06:45.560 --> 00:06:48.240 to the Perception Action podcast with Rob Gray. So if 129 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:51.680 anybody's interested in learning more about the logical dynamics or 130 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:55.120 more to learn theory, something I'll never forget hearing was 131 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.639 you can't teach somebody how to move if you don't 132 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.879 know how they learned to move. I really appreciated that 133 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.240 perspective because it really highlighted some of the frustrations I 134 00:07:03.240 --> 00:07:05.120 had with myself whenever I was trying to learn a skill. 135 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.720 I played pastball in college, I played collegiate tennis, and 136 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.399 whenever I was trying to learn and engage with a 137 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.920 new skill I

want to get better at, I usually 138 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:14.839 had a hard time whenever a coach would try and 139 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:17.639 tell me how to move. That might be because of 140 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.439 my issue with authority in general or as a whole potentially, 141 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:22.399 but I feel like that's a different story. But in 142 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.560 terms of you know, what I felt most comfortable doing 143 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.120 when I was learning was, you know, finding space and 144 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:31.920 time to learn and explore for myself and coaches and 145 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:35.120 educators in my life that made the biggest lasting impact 146 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:37.279 were the ones who gave me that space to explore, 147 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:40.160 and so that's something I've always wanted to continue to 148 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:44.279 emulate with every patient interaction I have, and any client 149 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:45.800 I ever end up working with in the future, I 150 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:47.360 want to make sure I can create that same kind 151 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:51.040 of space and you know, allowing them to learn more 152 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.560 about themselves rather than me trying to dictate how they're 153 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:57.000 supposed to move, which is something I have a pretty 154 00:07:57.040 --> 00:08:01.040 big issue with in general, with how initially got exposed 155 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:04.920 to exercise prescription as a coach, But I think in hindsight, 156 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:06.920 it's something that I'm really glad I came across, and 157 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.639 really glad I connected the tops with because this really 158 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:10.160 helped me out. 159 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:13.800 No, that's awesome, and it's funny that you had mentioned 160 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.800 kind of your entry point into this general field was 161 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:21.120 physical education, and my mom was actually a physical education teacher. 162 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:25.560 She worked with adapted physed students, and I had always 163 00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:28.360 grown up as being around it, and I knew I 164 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.720 wanted to do something health, wellness, fitness, medical, I just 165 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:35.440 didn't know what, and then pt ended up being something 166 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:38.120 that I thought checked off a lot of boxes. It 167 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.960 allowed me to dabble in the medical space. It allowed 168 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:43.799 me to dabble in the strength conditioning space. And then 169 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:47.080 the same thing that you just talked about education And 170 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.480 I think, you know, it's obvious I get the formal 171 00:08:49.639 --> 00:08:54.440 education component just from my roles within

the residency overseeing 172 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.799 that administratively, doing the lecturing, doing the mentorship for it. 173 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:03.440 But I think we often undervalue the role of education 174 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:07.440 in regards to patient care. And you kind of hit 175 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:09.960 the nail on the head, like it doesn't matter how 176 00:09:10.000 --> 00:09:13.519 good of a message you have if the patient doesn't 177 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:15.840 want to hear it or you're saying it in a 178 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:20.200 manner that the patient cannot comprehend or cannot understand. And 179 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:22.960 I would have to imagine, I'm kind of jealous of 180 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:26.200 your psychology background because I have to imagine that a 181 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:29.960 lot of that stuff that you've learned in undergrad intuitively 182 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:34.320 plays into how you interact, how you communicate, and how 183 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.159 you structure a lot of your sessions and feedback that 184 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:42.440 you give individuals. Because it's funny the analogy that Josh 185 00:09:42.799 --> 00:09:44.559 Funk always used that I work with a lot of 186 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:47.240 times when we're working with a patient, it's almost like 187 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:50.679 we're on different ends of a bridge and we're both 188 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:53.080 trying to communicate and tell the other person like, hey, 189 00:09:53.120 --> 00:09:56.679 come over to my side, do this, And oftentimes it's 190 00:09:56.679 --> 00:09:59.039 hard to shout the whole way across over to the 191 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:02.279 bridge and convince them to come over. So sometimes you know, 192 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.200 there's compromise. You got to walk halfway across, get your message, 193 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:08.360 have them meet you halfway. You can have a little 194 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:10.799 bit more intimate dialogue and then you can figure out 195 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.559 which route are we going to go. But it's it's 196 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.480 interesting and I'm gonna have to check that podcast out 197 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:20.879 because I do think it's funny. We we try to 198 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:24.720 coach and we try to que and often I find 199 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.639 myself when athletes are having a hard time performing a task, 200 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.440 it's very easy to get into this biomechanical model of oh, 201 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:37.000 they're demonstrating. You know, they're demonstrating this movement pattern because 202 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:41.759 they lack this mobility, whether it's you joint or capsulor 203 00:10:41.960 --> 00:10:45.200 or muscle, or they lack this strength. That they lack 204 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:47.720 this capacity and they're beginning to fatigue and that's why 205 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:52.240 they're demonstrating this movement pattern when in reality, maybe they're 206 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:54.679 moving that way because they didn't even understand the intention 207 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:57.320 of the drill. Maybe you didn't explain it well. Maybe 208 00:10:57.360 --> 00:10:59.840 you didn't provide them with an environment that allows them 209 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:03.519 to demonstrate their physical capabilities in the manner you want 210 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:08.039 them to. So I think you know understanding how patients learn, 211 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:13.600 understanding what is influencing their movement. I love the strength 212 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:17.240 and conditioning aspect of things that I was exercise science undergrad. 213 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:20.720 I was CSCs certified. I did a lot of personal 214 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.120 and small group training, and I used to think and 215 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:28.240 function in a vacuum where everything from a movement expression 216 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:32.559 was dictated by range of motion capacity, by strength capacity, 217 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.120 by all of those different you know, quantitative metrics that 218 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:39.000 you can track. And I'm starting to realize as I 219 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.720 get deeper and deeper into my career that's just a 220 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.879 small piece of the pie that we're actually dealing with here. 221 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:52.159 So going along that kind of route, what is one 222 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:56.440 thing that you think is going really well within the 223 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:59.960 physical therapy profession. I know you're earlier in your career, 224 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.720 but within your first couple of years actively as a PT, 225 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:05.559 and if you want to kind of reflect back to 226 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.480 your time as a student in different clinical rotations that 227 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:12.240 you've seen or just in the online space. What are 228 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.120 some really positive trends that you're starting to see in 229 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:16.360 the physical therapy world. 230 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:23.519 Yeah, and it's funny on that note of appreciating the complexity, 231 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.840 it's not as simple as range of motion strength that 232 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:29.840 right there I feel is improving as a whole. Now, 233 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:33.519 I want to preface this by saying acknowledging physical therapy, 234 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:36.320 there's such a wide breadth of practice. But within my 235 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:40.000 exposure to sports or theopedics, and honestly, I do have 236 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:43.240 some I was able to specialize in pediatrics while Columbia 237 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.799 because we can honor in our last year,

we can 238 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.879 do a specialty. And I it actually a lot of 239 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.279 what my interests or a lot of my interests in 240 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.679 motor learning, you know, is rooted in pediatric physical therapy 241 00:12:55.720 --> 00:13:00.120 and care. Because when you look at you know, working 242 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:05.000 with kids, working with youth, babies, you know, and you 243 00:13:05.840 --> 00:13:07.679 can't coach them the same way you would to coach 244 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.600 an adult. And so in terms of being able to 245 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:17.519 get certain outcomes, drive certain adaptations, you have to be 246 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.559 able to understand or what is it that I'm trying 247 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:23.080 to achieve And it's the task I'm selecting appropriate for 248 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:26.360 what I'm trying to achieve and doesn't need the individual. 249 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:29.279 The individual's capacities to be able to do that is 250 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:31.720 within their ability to actually perform what you want them 251 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.600 to do. And So in terms of where I see 252 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:38.919 the profession you know going, and what I feel is 253 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.120 going very well is I think we're having better conversations 254 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:44.000 around that. And I did a clinical rotation at EXOS, 255 00:13:44.120 --> 00:13:47.559 and honestly, if I didn't have this background in motor 256 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:49.639 learning and ecological dynamics, I feel like I would have 257 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:51.960 struggled a little bit more in that professional sports setting. 258 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.080 So when I spend time in Phoenix, Arizona at EXOS, 259 00:13:55.120 --> 00:14:01.279 I really appreciated their integration of you know, that complexity 260 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.519 of you know, taking a systems approach, and I think, 261 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:07.360 you know, having that conversation really allows us to better 262 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:12.159 appreciate the relationship between things that influence movement and the 263 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.679 out and the emergency movement or you can call it that, 264 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.279 and it really helps us appreciate the individuality of an 265 00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:22.240 athlete or any patient that we work with and helps 266 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:25.000 us better understand that, you know, we're not trying to 267 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:28.679 force people into specific box or certain like movement patterns, 268 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.240 as some people call. Right, we're trying to better understand 269 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.840 what makes them unique, how we can better leverage their strengths, 270 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.799 and then how we can collaborate, you know, and approaching 271

00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:41.559 it like it's a two way street to make sure 272 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:43.919 we can again create that setting for them to thrive. 273 00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:46.240 Because ultimately we can, like you said, we can learn 274 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:49.200 and think, you know, we know how somebody's supposed to move, 275 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:52.480 or we have an idea, we have some mechanistic you know, 276 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:55.240 explanation for X, y Z. But at the end of 277 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:57.200 the day, like a lot of it doesn't matter if 278 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.440 the person in front of you isn't really number one, 279 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:03.000 buying into what you're doing, to isn't really resonating with 280 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.799 you know, or it doesn't have their expectations set appropriately 281 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:10.559 for what they're trying to achieve. And three, honestly, if 282 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:12.159 they don't just vibe with you, because you know, as 283 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:14.000 a provider, you have to be able to you know, 284 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.840 have them feel like they can trust you, I think 285 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:18.919 that's going to influence outcomes a lot more. And we 286 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:21.000 know that's going to influence outcomes a lot more, especially 287 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.720 if you don't you know, have a positive outlook on 288 00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:27.759 what you're doing and so for me the profession as 289 00:15:27.759 --> 00:15:30.399 a whole, I feel those conversations are happening more often. 290 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.759 And I also see happening a lot more in the 291 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:36.039 coaching world as well, because I still work with a 292 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.320 lot of personal trainers here in the city, and I 293 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:41.279 do a lot of continue education for coaches, specifically that 294 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.120 want to collaborate with physical therapists. And I'm just really 295 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:46.200 happy to see that because I think we're no longer 296 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.639 saying you're in pain because your glutes hurt, or your 297 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:53.399 glutes are weak, your knee hurts because you of valgus 298 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:57.519 like and trying to find the answer to you know, 299 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.799 so called problems. I think we're just appreciated in the complexity, 300 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:03.360 and I think it's just driving better and better care 301 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:08.120 as we start to really dive deeper into supporting the 302 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.679 individual rather than just focusing on Like again, like the 303 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.159 biomechanical proced is so prevalent. It's something that everybody gets 304 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.440 exposed to when they first get started. But I definitely 305 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:19.720 see that being a huge shift now. 306 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:23.360 That's awesome, and I'm talking about the biomechanical approach. One 307 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.639 of the best PT school experiences I ever had was 308 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:31.279 actually during a prosthetics an orthotics lab and lecture that 309 00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:32.200 we were doing. 310 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.320 And that was my favorite class, by the way. 311 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:39.799 That's and the individual who was presenting the whole topic 312 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:46.279 was mostly geared towards prosthetics and fitting them appropriately and 313 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:50.600 GAT analysis and understanding if you have an inappropriately fitting 314 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:57.080 prosthetic or orthotic, how could that force certain movement strategies 315 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:02.159 to accommodate whatever the orthotic is. And he went into 316 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:06.160 great detail in regards to, you know, if something is 317 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:09.000 too big, if something is too small, if it has 318 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.319 all these different variables at play, how that's going to 319 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:15.319 affect the gate cycle. And then he kind of took 320 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:17.680 a whole one eighty and he said, all right, now, 321 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.640 let's take an individual. You know that they're not somebody 322 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:25.559 who has an amptutated limb. They're just a individual who 323 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.559 is in the general population. And he used a runner 324 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:32.200 as an example, and he said, all right, now, what 325 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:33.920 I want you to do is I want you to 326 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.559 look at this video of this person running, and I 327 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.680 want you to take note of all of the abnormal 328 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.880 gate findings that you have, and then we're going to 329 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.160 figure out what we're going to fit this person for. 330 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.680 So he plays this video and it's pretty alarming. Every 331 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:54.160 time that this individual's foot is striking the ground, there's 332 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:57.200 so much pronation happening, and the foot is going so 333 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.400 flat that the medial malleolus is almost touching the ground 334 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.720 every single time they're striking. And that's you know, you 335 00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:06.759 can work that up the chain and you can start 336 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.799 to see what other things are happening. And he stops 337 00:18:09.799 --> 00:18:11.039 a video and he says, all right, so what do 338 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.599 you guys see And people start shouting out like, oh, 339

00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.039 there's pronation, there's dynamic nee v augus, there's excessive lateral 340 00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:21.000 sway at the trunk and at the hips. He's like, perfect, perfect, perfect, 341 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.440 Now what are we going to do about this? And 342 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:26.440 everybody starts talking about all these different arch supports and 343 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.680 wedges and all these different methodics are going to fit 344 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:30.839 him with. And he goes, great, you know what I'm 345 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.359 going to do for this person? And we're like what 346 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.240 would you do? And he's like, I'm not going to 347 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.599 do anything at all. This is the fastest person in 348 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:41.880 the world right now. He's in no paid he's having 349 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:46.039 no complaints, no issues, and he's highly functioning. So I'm 350 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.279 going to take note of it, and if he happens 351 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:51.079 to start having some injuries or happens to start having 352 00:18:51.519 --> 00:18:54.839 you know, skin breakdown or something else going on, then 353 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:58.160 we'll cross that bridge. But just remember you don't need 354 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.920 to treat every single thing that you see if it 355 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.319 doesn't have any performance or health relevance. And that was 356 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:08.279 like mind blowing to me hearing that, and it's something 357 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:10.640 I try to keep in mind every day when I'm 358 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.839 working with an individual. It's always just stepping back and 359 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.400 figuring out, you know, does this movement or does this 360 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:22.279 biomechanical finding really have any relevance. And it's funny, I 361 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.119 think back to my days of like early strength and 362 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.640 conditioning when I was in undergrad and just out of 363 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:32.839 undergrad and PT school and you know, enough information to 364 00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:36.440 be dangerous. And I'm taking people through these different warm 365 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:40.119 ups and I'm in these group training environments and I'll 366 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:42.799 see somebody doing a squad or a lunge and it 367 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.799 doesn't look perfect, so I stop them. My coach and 368 00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:48.559 my quem I correct them, and I keep doing this 369 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:50.200 over and over, and it's funny. One of my buddies 370 00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:53.160 is helping me, has been doing it for longer He's like, Zac, 371 00:19:53.240 --> 00:19:55.119 this is just a warm up, Like, it doesn't really 372 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:57.559 matter if it doesn't matter if

they're not squatting perfect. 373 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.000 It doesn't matter if they're if their lunch doesn't look 374 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:02.640 like the whole purpose that we're doing is to just 375 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.440 increase heart rate, increase respiratory rate, get them warmed up. 376 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.559 They're not going to do any physical harm by doing it, 377 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.279 not in a picture perfect state. And that was another 378 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.519 kind of like aha moment for me. It's like, Oh, 379 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.920 does the movement influence the intention of the activity at all? 380 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.960 And if not, then we can probably put it more 381 00:20:21.960 --> 00:20:23.839 in like the yellow flag as opposed to the red 382 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:28.200 flag category. With how much we care about it, I 383 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.240 want to have time for a couple more questions. And 384 00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:33.960 I know you're still early on in the career, so 385 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:36.799 there may not be some things that are as evident, 386 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:40.200 or some things that maybe they are as evident, you 387 00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.680 just haven't dealt with them long enough to be really 388 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.559 passionate about it. But is there anything that you think 389 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:50.839 we could collectively improve upon within the profession. We just 390 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.759 talked about some things that we're doing well. Is there 391 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.400 anything that you've noticed that you really wish we could 392 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.279 kind of go a different direction with it, or is 393 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:02.160 there anything that you think is kind of a big 394 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.119 weakness or area for improvement in the field. 395 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:10.440 Yeah, for sure. I mean there's a couple I'm not 396 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:13.920 going to talk about the obvious of like school is expensive, 397 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:15.960 and you know, we don't get paid as much as 398 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:19.640 we should in terms as providers, and I think that's 399 00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:22.960 definitely something that's honestly always going to be an issue. 400 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.119 And as the more that we as professionals like continue 401 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.759 to hone our skills and find ways to support patients 402 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:32.000 but get paid what we need to, I think that's 403 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:35.200 going to be something or an ongoing conversation. But in 404 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:38.000 terms of like looking deeper into the profession and practice, 405 00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:43.720 I think one thing that personally resonates strongly with is 406 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:50.920 the collaborative piece or the collaborative element with fitness professionals 407 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:55.240 and personal trainers because I think you know, depending on 408 00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:56.720 where you are and what kind of access you have 409 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.880 to care, if we are in a space where we're 410 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:01.880 not able to support somebody or see them as much 411 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:03.680 as we need to, we got to think about who 412 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:08.200 are the individuals who can support our patients long term? 413 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:11.119 When it comes to wellness and obviously you know my 414 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:13.440 foundation in my background is in strength conditioning. I was 415 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.079 a personal trainer, and I'm seeing people too nice a week, 416 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.640 three times a week, sometimes right once a week in 417 00:22:20.720 --> 00:22:22.960 terms of frequency, In terms of being able to execute 418 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.160 and support wellness as a whole, I strongly believe personal 419 00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:30.559 trainers and fitness professionals are in a better position. But 420 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.119 as you know, I was a coach at the time 421 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:35.680 when I really started to think about this, because some 422 00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.880 of my most meaningful relationships that also drove a lot 423 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:40.519 of my practice and business when I was a coach 424 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.200 was my relationships with physical therapists who also believe the 425 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:44.720 same thing, and so I got a lot of referrals, 426 00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.680 but at the same time, I like to refer out. 427 00:22:46.839 --> 00:22:49.119 I was comfortable referring out when I didn't have the 428 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.519 answer to something, and that's when I realized and learned 429 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:53.720 I didn't need to have the answers everything. And I 430 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.599 think that's the issue with a lot of coaches now 431 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.960 who don't have that bridge or that connection or that 432 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:02.759 network with they provider who also aligns with that, because 433 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:05.880 when you are in a space where you have a 434 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:10.119 client they have an issue, your profession your business relies 435 00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:13.599 on them can continue to see you, but you don't 436 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.680 have a network of providers to refer out to, and 437 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:17.319 so you feel like you need to have the answer 438 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:19.920 and you try and solve it for yourself. You can 439 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.160 run into issues very quickly as a coach, especially if 440 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:27.279 you're entering territory of like a complex diagnoses

and you 441 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:30.599 know your client hasn't had a physical in like five 442 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:33.119 six years. This is very normal, although you should be 443 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.240 getting doctor sclareings before working with a coach, right but 444 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.480 you know, that's the reality of it. You often find 445 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:43.160 coaches who don't have that network support and I really 446 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:47.240 wish that it was something that was integrated into the 447 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.880 you know, the spectrum of care. And it's integrated too 448 00:23:49.880 --> 00:23:52.920 how we think about when it comes to being a 449 00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:56.799 healthcare provider. And honestly, it goes both ways too, because 450 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:00.359 pets are notorious for having a bad reputation not being 451 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:03.640 able to really progress someone or actually being able to 452 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:06.160 train somebody intensely enough to be able to create changes 453 00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:08.319 that they say they're trying to make. Because a lot 454 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:11.039 of pts who might not have the same background and 455 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:13.519 strength conditioning as I do, or yourself as well, so 456 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:17.160 in terms of, like, you know, where we can better collaborate. Again, 457 00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:19.359 i'm speaking to maybe on the or to be exports, 458 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.480 but I do think there's opportunity and potential in other 459 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.519 aspects of practice and physical therapy obviously, but I think 460 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:31.799 fitness professionals have a great opportunity to just support and 461 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:36.400 promote wellness, and unfortunately, I personally find like the barrier 462 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.200 to enter the profession is very low when it comes 463 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.599 to being a fitness professional. But I think the best 464 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.279 thing we can do is continue to have educational opportunities, 465 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.720 create systems, and create opportunities for networking to take place, 466 00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:52.839 but also make sure that you know we're not trying 467 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:54.519 to take clients or patients from each other or just 468 00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:56.880 trying to support each other. And I think when I 469 00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:58.720 was in school that was one of my frustrations. You know, 470 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:03.079 I would deliberately probe my professors. Would you ever work 471 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:06.079 as a provider If you're discussing strength in terms of 472 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:09.559 this being a limiting impairment, how are you supposed to 473 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:11.200 do that if you only see them once a

week, 474 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:13.839 and when you can't see them anymore, they are out 475 00:25:13.839 --> 00:25:16.000 of visits. How is that something that you're going to 476 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.759 be able to promote long term, would you consider bringing 477 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:23.680 in a coach, And often there was a superiority complex 478 00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:28.440 that would pick up that. Really I've noticed prevalent across 479 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.599 the profession and across providers I've spoken to, especially when 480 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:33.759 I was a coach at the time. So to me, 481 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:36.200 I think we can improve that as profession and in general, 482 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:37.799 I think it just has a lot to do with 483 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:40.319 talking with each other more and just figure out how 484 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:41.079 to support each other. 485 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:43.720 Now. I love that, and I think a lot of 486 00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:46.079 times we just need to be realistic and put our 487 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:49.160 egos aside and appreciate what are our strengths, what are 488 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:53.119 our weaknesses. I think at times we overestimate what we 489 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:56.720 know collectively as a profession, and I think we also 490 00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:59.640 underestimate what others know at times. And something that I've 491 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:04.440 tried to be more intentional throughout my career is getting 492 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.920 to know the other people in the community. Who are 493 00:26:06.920 --> 00:26:09.599 the physicians that are out there, who are the strength coaches, 494 00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:12.880 who are the chiropractors, who are the massage therapists, And 495 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:19.319 I think oftentimes people in the fitness world assume that 496 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:23.279 certain pts don't know anything about strength conditioning, and honestly, 497 00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:25.400 in a lot of cases they're probably right because that's 498 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:27.559 not part of the PT school curriculum, and if you 499 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:31.240 don't have some sort of background or other experiences, you 500 00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:35.200 may have a very limited knowledge in that field. But 501 00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:38.480 there are some really really good pts who are also 502 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.839 really really good at strength. On the other end of 503 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:46.119 the spectrum, I think sometimes in the clinical space as pts, 504 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:49.079 we underestimate how much of what we do in mid 505 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:53.240 and late phase rehab actually overlaps with what just a 506 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:57.599 really good program a strength training professional can do with 507 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.000 an individual. And I think, like you

had mentioned, whether 508 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:06.640 it's due to insurance limitations or financial limitations, or maybe 509 00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:09.279 the patient has all the money and insurance in the world, 510 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:11.920 you have all the knowledge in the world, you just 511 00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.359 don't work in a clinical environment where you can do 512 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:17.640 that type of training. Maybe of a small space, maybe 513 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:20.799 you don't have the equipment or the resources you need 514 00:27:20.839 --> 00:27:23.359 to be able to provide. If you really want to 515 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:26.160 truly keep the patient's best interest in mind, you need 516 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:28.400 to point them in the direction of other people who 517 00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.960 can give them a very holistic program. And I often 518 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.920 found when you get into those later phases of rehab. 519 00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:39.519 There's so much that they need to work on. It's very, 520 00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.079 very hard to do all of that in one session 521 00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:45.079 on your own. So if you can build out a team, 522 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:47.119 and if you're seeing somebody once a week or twice 523 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:49.519 a week, and they're also seeing a strength coach two 524 00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:51.799 or three days a week, they can do a lot 525 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:56.240 of just their their conditioning, building up their capacity, doing 526 00:27:56.279 --> 00:27:59.079 a lot of their energy system development. They can do 527 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:02.079 that stuff outside side, and then you can focus your 528 00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:06.559 time introducing new and novel activity progression into things that 529 00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:09.599 they haven't been exposed to yet, and you can really 530 00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:13.680 selectively utilize each other's time and resources to your advantage. 531 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.559 And my biggest pet peeve is when pts say, oh, 532 00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.400 I'm doing power training with this individual, I'm like, really, 533 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.559 you just gave them a fifteen second rest break. I 534 00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.920 don't think they truly are doing power training if they're 535 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:28.839 able to hop right back up and do another one 536 00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:33.680 hundred percent max output activity after just casually chatting for 537 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.720 fifteen seconds, Like if you're doing true strength training and 538 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:43.079 true power training. Unfortunately, just from an energy system standpoint, 539 00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.799 they need to have legitimate work to rest ratios and 540 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.000 for most pts, you can't factor that in to the 541 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.400 fifteen twenty thirty minutes that you have with that individual 542 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:56.319 of one on one time. But guess what, you can 543 00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:58.279 send them to a strength coach and they can get 544 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:00.079 after it in the weight room and knock all that 545 00:29:00.119 --> 00:29:02.839 stuff out there, and you can do maybe the more 546 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.720 reintroduction of sports specific tasks and other activities that you 547 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:09.839 want to in the clinic. So I think that's a 548 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.720 huge piece, And like you had mentioned, a lot of 549 00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.000 it boils down to just be a good person. Go 550 00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:20.200 out and meet some people, strike up genuine relationships, get 551 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:23.200 to know them, get to know what they enjoy working with, 552 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.279 what they have experience in, and you're going to start 553 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:30.079 to realize there is more than enough patience and clientele 554 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:31.519 to keep everybody busy. 555 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:33.000 And exactly. 556 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.400 It's funny. There's a business owner in the county that 557 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.119 I work in who runs a gym, and he had 558 00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:41.880 talked about early on, you know, he used to be 559 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.440 afraid of the other gyms from taking his clients and 560 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:46.599 all this, and he's like, you know what, there is 561 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:50.039 four hundred thousand people that live in this county. My 562 00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.839 gym cannot hold four hundred thousand people, so there's more 563 00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.160 than enough people to go around for every gym owner. 564 00:29:58.039 --> 00:30:00.279 And in reality, it's going to be like the the 565 00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:04.359 bottom tier of gyms that kind of cannibalize themselves. It's 566 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:05.920 going to be the mid and the top tier that 567 00:30:05.920 --> 00:30:11.519 are all collectively working together with that abundance mindset. Right right, James, 568 00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:13.039 we're kind of coming up on the end of this, 569 00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:17.839 But if you had any advice for people like yourself 570 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.480 who are in the early stages of their career, or 571 00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:22.920 maybe people who are wrapping up PT school right now, 572 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.279 to help them carve out a meaningful and rewarding career, 573 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:29.519 what would you say to them? 574 00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:36.200 I think some of the most important and meaningful conversations 575 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:40.160 I've had while being a student and since graduating from 576 00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:43.559 Physical

therapy school, I had a lot to do with 577 00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.240 the networking I did early early on in my career, 578 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:51.000 and so I knew that I wanted to connect with 579 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:53.799 people who align with some of my ambitions. I wanted 580 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:55.839 to connect with people who knew the stuff I wanted 581 00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:59.440 to know, and I made an effort back in the 582 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:01.559 day when I was coach to just send a message, Hey, 583 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:04.920 it's a pleasure to connect hope it's cool if I, 584 00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:06.319 you know, pick your brain once in a while. But 585 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.599 I think people, I feel like I have lost ability 586 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.200 to be genuinely interested in others. I feel like, aside 587 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:18.240 from you know, wanting to just seek on information, like 588 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:20.480 you have to genuinely also be interested in who you 589 00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.599 want to engage with, because you know, when somebody reaches 590 00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.200 out to you and they just want something, you can 591 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:27.960 kind of sense that right away. But I think something 592 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:30.039 I learned very early on when I was networking was 593 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.759 to want to do my research, but to be very 594 00:31:32.839 --> 00:31:36.400 genuinely interested in the things that you want to learn 595 00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:39.359 and how that individual is involved in those things, because 596 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.039 you'd be surprised they don't probably get as many inquiries 597 00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:45.519 as you might think. And so like, if you're that 598 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.039 one individual to reach out and show that kind of interest, 599 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:51.119 you know they're going to remember. People I think genuinely 600 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:54.039 want to help each other. And I've noticed that in 601 00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:56.839 terms of the relationships I've built over the years, because 602 00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:59.359 some of the you know, conversations that I've had in 603 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:03.480 passing have come full circle. I've you know, networking with 604 00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:05.960 people I met for the first time that know, somebody 605 00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:07.920 I've spoken to maybe four or five years back, and 606 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.880 it's constantly still happening as I continue to do this, 607 00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:15.279 And so if for any students or even practicing clinicians 608 00:32:15.319 --> 00:32:17.279 now it's not something you can it's never too late 609 00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:19.880 to start. Just figure out who you want to learn from, 610 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:23.279 reach out to them genuinely, like look into what they

do, 611 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:26.680 and for the most part, people want to help. And 612 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:29.400 so you know, as long as you're genuinely interested and 613 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.359 want to know what they do, and you know what 614 00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:35.319 they're doing, where they are, who they're working with, I 615 00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:37.640 think it's going to really work out long term. And 616 00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:40.200 you know, don't do it just to get info, don't 617 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:43.519 do it just to get something for yourself, but offer 618 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:45.519 you know, how you can support. I think that's an 619 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.519 underappreciated aspect that people for the most part remember the 620 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:53.119 most and it just comes full circle. It's something I 621 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:55.880 can't really explain in too much detail, but when it happens, 622 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:58.920 it's just, you know, I really appreciate the time I 623 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.119 spent to really like connect with individuals in the field 624 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.279 and outside the field too. I've connected with educators and 625 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:07.599 who knew things about what I was interested in, but 626 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:10.279 I had to fill into blank spaces between what I 627 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.559 wanted to do and how I want to integrate that stuff. 628 00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:16.039 But that led to very meaningful conversations as well too. 629 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:18.039 So people are going to be interested in what you're 630 00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:20.079 interested in too if you get the chance to actually 631 00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.279 speak about it. And so I think in terms of 632 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:24.680 like having a rewarding career, I'm still very early on 633 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:28.400 in mind. So I just hope that my network continues 634 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.359 to support me, and I'm always looking for ways to 635 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.079 support my network as well. And I think ness well 636 00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:36.000 is going to drive me forward and hopefully I can 637 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:37.759 help others along the way as well. 638 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:43.160 That is great advice. Well, we've gotten through everything that 639 00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:46.000 we had planned out for today, James. I appreciate you 640 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:49.720 taking the time. I really enjoyed this conversation. I think 641 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:51.960 all those listening will say the same thing as well. 642 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:55.640 For those who are listening, you are listening to the 643 00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:59.160 Strength and Knowledge podcast. James, thank you for coming on 644 00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.559 and appreciate your time and energy today. 645 00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:04.519 Thanks for having me