บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ What is a Concussion_ With Neil deGrasse Tyson_ Leonard Marshall_ _ Heather Berlin

41 00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:01.019 something wrong happened in that play. 42 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:02.079 All right. 43 00:02:02.140 --> 00:02:04.760 So if I say soccer, I get pushed back. If 44 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:06.890 I say football, I get pushed back. I don't win. 45 00:02:07.390 --> 00:02:09.629 That's true. That's true. It's a square ball. 46 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:13.669 Look, the thing is, CTE is not particularly well understood. 47 00:02:14.129 --> 00:02:19.110 And up until recently, diagnosis took place, sadly, through autopsy. 48 00:02:19.129 --> 00:02:21.689 Imagine. Symptoms, right? 49 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:26.719 Symptoms can appear years or even decades after the last 50 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:31.159 head trauma occurred and can present, and this is spooky, really, 51 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:39.620 memory loss, severe headaches, erratic behavior, and tragically, suicidal tendencies. Now, Neil... 52 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:44.400 This literally hits home for me. I had 14 years 53 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.180 as a pro. I didn't just head a soccer ball. 54 00:02:47.930 --> 00:02:49.810 I practiced heading a soccer ball. 55 00:02:50.370 --> 00:02:52.530 Oh, you did it even when you, oh. 56 00:02:52.889 --> 00:02:53.050 Right? 57 00:02:53.069 --> 00:02:54.330 Because there's a technique. 58 00:02:54.370 --> 00:02:56.509 There's a way to do certain things in a certain way. 59 00:02:56.949 --> 00:03:01.250 So this is interesting deeply for me. Now, our clinical 60 00:03:01.289 --> 00:03:05.289 expertise will come from our good friend and neuroscientist, Dr. 61 00:03:05.340 --> 00:03:08.800 Heather Berlin, who will join us later in the show. 62 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:15.210 But Let's meet somebody. Nine years ago this person was 63 00:03:15.250 --> 00:03:19.319 diagnosed with CTE and I want us to listen to 64 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.280 their story and hopefully walk away from this podcast having 65 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:27.379 learned something and having become enlightened on a subject that 66 00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:31.319 is only in the last few years receiving the attention 67 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.430 it deserves. So I would like to introduce our guest 68 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.389 Leonard Marshall. Now if that name sounds familiar This is 69 00:03:38.430 --> 00:03:41.889 a two-time Super Bowl champion. This is a two-time pro bowler, 70 00:03:42.009 --> 00:03:45.849 two-time NFL defensive lineman of the year. That's not where 71 00:03:45.909 --> 00:03:49.469 it ends. He's also been a professor of sports management 72 00:03:49.569 --> 00:03:52.710 at Seton Hall Stillman School of Business. He's an advocate 73 00:03:52.729 --> 00:03:56.090 for athletes who are suffering from CTE, and he went 74 00:03:56.150 --> 00:03:59.650 toe-to-toe with the NFL to win a class action case 75 00:04:00.400 --> 00:04:04.439 to get money for other players who aren't as affluent players. 76 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.500 but are suffering all the same. He's also an entrepreneur, 77 00:04:07.520 --> 00:04:13.479 he's also a philanthropist, as well as a CBD advocate. Neil, please, 78 00:04:13.500 --> 00:04:14.979 go and have a chat with Leonard. 79 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:17.870 Leonard, welcome to StarTalk. 80 00:04:18.170 --> 00:04:20.829 Hey, thank you very much for having me. Gary, what 81 00:04:20.850 --> 00:04:24.850 a great introduction and I sincerely appreciate that and some 82 00:04:24.870 --> 00:04:28.490 of the touching points that you eloquently talked about. 83 00:04:29.170 --> 00:04:30.470 If it wasn't true, I wouldn't say it. 84 00:04:30.790 --> 00:04:31.670 Nope, that's true. 85 00:04:32.709 --> 00:04:41.870 I would. Let me just catch some people up on 86 00:04:42.100 --> 00:04:46.839 your resume here. So if I understand correctly, if you're 87 00:04:46.899 --> 00:04:49.180 in the Super Bowl, you can't also play in the 88 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.399 Pro Bowl. Is that correct? 89 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:57.899 Well, that was before today's football. Yesterday's football, you finish 90 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.529 the season. And then two weeks after the season was 91 00:05:01.569 --> 00:05:03.829 the Pro Bowl. So you would play the Super Bowl. 92 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:06.319 and then you would fly to Hawaii. And it was 93 00:05:06.379 --> 00:05:07.439 kind of a gift. 94 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:09.279 And still do that, okay. 95 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:11.459 Yeah, it was kind of a gift and a curse 96 00:05:11.490 --> 00:05:13.970 at the same time because your body was so beat 97 00:05:14.009 --> 00:05:16.009 up in the Super Bowl. So you were ready for 98 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:17.589 the season to be over if you played in the 99 00:05:17.610 --> 00:05:20.180 Super Bowl anyway. But most guys went to the Pro 100 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:22.550 Bowl just to kind of have fun. drink Mai Tais, 101 00:05:22.649 --> 00:05:24.490 and lay on the beach. 102 00:05:24.889 --> 00:05:26.709 I mean, yeah, if I won a Super Bowl, I'd 103 00:05:26.740 --> 00:05:29.720 still go to Hawaii, and I'd just lay on the beach, right? 104 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:33.199 I'd go to Hawaii with a very sudden ankle injury 105 00:05:34.459 --> 00:05:36.279 right before the game. 106 00:05:38.139 --> 00:05:40.019 Worst case, a broken eyelash ever. 107 00:05:43.250 --> 00:05:45.389 So, Leonard, you've got here a book titled When the 108 00:05:45.490 --> 00:05:46.430 Cheering Stops. 109 00:05:46.970 --> 00:05:47.209 Yes. 110 00:05:47.889 --> 00:05:50.180 And, oh my gosh, I mean, that's a, What a 111 00:05:50.220 --> 00:05:53.379 title of a book that is. I mean, you know, 112 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:58.620 it's almost as though whatever are my worst thoughts, that's 113 00:05:58.660 --> 00:06:02.430 what's going to be in that book. And so at 114 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:05.149 what point were you motivated to say more people have 115 00:06:05.170 --> 00:06:07.170 to know about what has happened to me? 116

00:06:07.170 --> 00:06:14.250 2007, 2009, Neil, I began having issues I felt with 117 00:06:14.290 --> 00:06:17.649 traumatic brain injury. I started receiving phone calls from friends 118 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:20.129 of mine around the league. guys that I played with 119 00:06:20.209 --> 00:06:25.689 and against. And several of those guys were, they were 120 00:06:25.730 --> 00:06:29.509 kind of stuck. They felt like they didn't have an outlet. 121 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:36.019 They were having some real problems at home. They weren't 122 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:38.439 able to articulate what was going on because they really 123 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:41.120 didn't know what was going on. All they knew is, 124 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:44.120 you know, when they played the game and they were 125 00:06:44.139 --> 00:06:47.199 concussed in the game, they were told just what every 126 00:06:47.250 --> 00:06:49.779 other tough guy is told, Rub a little dirt on it, 127 00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:52.889 you know, rest a little bit, and go on back 128 00:06:52.970 --> 00:06:56.209 in there and do what you do. Well, that just 129 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.160 doesn't work well with 310, 20-pound linemen in the National 130 00:07:00.180 --> 00:07:02.579 Football League when men are playing for months. It just 131 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.360 doesn't work that way. So I didn't find out until, 132 00:07:07.180 --> 00:07:10.360 I'm going to say, a cool 10, 12, 14 years 133 00:07:10.459 --> 00:07:14.220 after the game was over for me because my career 134 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:19.790 ended in 1996. And I became a dad in 1995. 135 00:07:19.790 --> 00:07:22.910 So the entire time that I'm going through this process, 136 00:07:24.490 --> 00:07:27.610 I'm a hundred percent concerned about what's going to happen 137 00:07:27.629 --> 00:07:30.410 to my little girl if I'm unable to be her father. 138 00:07:32.009 --> 00:07:34.230 What is my wife going to do when she has 139 00:07:34.250 --> 00:07:36.370 to take care of not only my child, but me too. 140 00:07:37.569 --> 00:07:40.930 And then what is the league going to do to 141 00:07:40.970 --> 00:07:44.649 make sure that the quality of my life does not 142 00:07:44.689 --> 00:07:48.269 diminish because The one thing you don't get when you 143 00:07:48.290 --> 00:07:51.629 leave pro football is health insurance benefits. You get 18 144 00:07:51.629 --> 00:07:54.370 months of COBRA, and if you don't go into private 145 00:07:54.410 --> 00:07:57.889 business or you're not smart enough to connect yourself with 146 00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:03.089 a company to gainfully become employed, you will have the 147 00:08:03.850 --> 00:08:07.410 biggest problem in the world in trying to find an 148 00:08:07.470 --> 00:08:11.089 insurance carrier that will underwrite you after a career in 149 00:08:11.110 --> 00:08:13.529 the National Football League because you're bringing baggage. 150 00:08:14.139 --> 00:08:15.160 Is it still that way? 151 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:16.480 It's still that way. 152 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:18.579 It's still that way. It's still that way. 153 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.939 I remember some time ago during a player negotiation with 154 00:08:22.990 --> 00:08:26.009 the owners that that was on the table, some form 155 00:08:26.290 --> 00:08:30.670 of health care. And they quashed it. The owners, they 156 00:08:30.689 --> 00:08:33.389 just quashed it right away. This is something that they 157 00:08:33.529 --> 00:08:35.029 really are adamantly against. 158 00:08:35.350 --> 00:08:39.789 Yeah, Chuck, you're not getting that 40 acres and a 159 00:08:39.820 --> 00:08:42.840 mule when you retire and you walk away. It's not 160 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.799 going to happen. And I don't know why. I don't 161 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:50.220 know why that the predecessors that continue to be involved 162 00:08:50.259 --> 00:08:54.379 in professional football, they haven't taken a stronger stance on that, 163 00:08:54.799 --> 00:08:58.179 especially for the guys that built the game like myself. 164 00:08:58.639 --> 00:08:58.879 Right. 165 00:08:59.259 --> 00:09:01.529 Like the household names of guys that you knew and 166 00:09:01.570 --> 00:09:05.889 know of doing your genre of work and everything else. 167 00:09:05.929 --> 00:09:08.509 So it just it just doesn't make any sense, guys. 168 00:09:08.980 --> 00:09:11.960 Well, by the way, you were a household name in 169 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.980 my house because you played for the Giants, and I'm 170 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.000 an Eagles fan, so we just hated you. 171 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:19.730 Right, right. 172 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:21.309 As long as you weren't with my friends, Chuck. No, 173 00:09:21.309 --> 00:09:24.769 because he ate quarterbacks, you know what I mean? Leonard 174 00:09:24.789 --> 00:09:27.450 was like third time in the Giants history or something 175 00:09:27.470 --> 00:09:27.870 like that. 176 00:09:27.889 --> 00:09:28.230 Yes. 177 00:09:28.250 --> 00:09:29.330 The third of all time. 178 00:09:29.690 --> 00:09:32.690 And most of those sacks were against the Philadelphia Eagles. 179 00:09:33.029 --> 00:09:34.649 So thanks a lot. 180 00:09:35.460 --> 00:09:39.200 So the thing here, Neil, is... What Leonard said reminds 181 00:09:39.259 --> 00:09:41.879 me of a wonderful phrase, and I can't remember who 182 00:09:42.019 --> 00:09:44.820 is the author of this, but standing on the shoulders 183 00:09:44.860 --> 00:09:45.360 of giants. 184 00:09:46.940 --> 00:09:52.049 Of course, that's Isaac Newton. Thank you. There you go. 185 00:09:52.549 --> 00:09:54.690 If I can see farther than others, it's because I've 186 00:09:54.710 --> 00:09:57.289 stood on the shoulders of giants who have come before me. 187 00:09:57.590 --> 00:10:01.600 And giants like Leonard and and he he's respectful of 188 00:10:01.659 --> 00:10:04.299 those that came before him and it's a it's a 189 00:10:04.620 -->

00:10:07.019 it's a heritage and a lineage that should be carried 190 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:10.379 forward and people need to learn to look backwards sometimes 191 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:11.600 and not just forwards. 192 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:14.080 But but also i just want to add if correct 193 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:20.730 me if i'm wrong leonard football careers relative to tennis, soccer, 194 00:10:20.789 --> 00:10:25.690 baseball are notoriously short because you can't do that, you know, 195 00:10:26.350 --> 00:10:30.340 late into your life as in thirties and early forties, 196 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:35.440 the way many baseball players do. So the many football players, again, 197 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:37.379 correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my understanding, 198 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.090 are not the, the, the marquee players that make the 199 00:10:41.169 --> 00:10:45.470 zillion dollars that are household names. Most of them are, are, are, 200 00:10:45.690 --> 00:10:49.350 are service players filling out the team. And so they 201 00:10:49.370 --> 00:10:55.759 don't then have these huge financial reserves to then carry 202 00:10:55.820 --> 00:10:57.600 them out for the rest of their lives. Is that 203 00:10:57.659 --> 00:10:58.940 an accurate characterization? 204 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:04.240 Yeah, accurate characterization when I played the game from 1983 205 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:07.149 to 96, because keep in mind, I went through two 206 00:11:07.190 --> 00:11:11.490 strikes in the NFL. I went through a strike in 87. 207 00:11:11.490 --> 00:11:14.049 I went through a strike in 92, which granted us 208 00:11:14.090 --> 00:11:19.389 free agency. So I'm one of the pillars of what 209 00:11:19.429 --> 00:11:23.769 you see now in terms of compensation players are being paid. 210 00:11:24.350 --> 00:11:26.879 Let's just put it like this. For the Giants to 211 00:11:26.889 --> 00:11:29.399 put my team on the field that won the Super 212 00:11:29.419 --> 00:11:32.399 Bowl in 1986, they would have to borrow money from 213 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:35.799 the Jets to do it. Because there's no way you're 214 00:11:35.820 --> 00:11:39.000 going to have two defensive players side by side, like 215 00:11:39.019 --> 00:11:42.759 Chuck talked about, Lawrence Taylor and Leonard Marshall, with over 216 00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:45.960 200 quarterback sacks between them, and a middle linebacker in 217 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:49.379 Harry Carson, who's also a Hall of Fame linebacker, on 218 00:11:49.419 --> 00:11:52.100 the same defense along with George Martin and Carl Banks 219 00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:55.379 and Jim Burke. Those seven guys, they will never beat 220 00:11:55.419 --> 00:11:57.879 seven players on the field at the same time on 221 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:00.179 a team like that ever again. They just don't have 222 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.340 the money to do it. They don't have the competition. 223 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:07.000 Leonard,

let me ask you a question because you had 224 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.360 714 tackles during your NFL career. 225 00:12:09.460 --> 00:12:09.799 Correct. 226 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:13.059 Right? How many times did you get tackled? How many 227 00:12:13.100 --> 00:12:15.659 times did you get hit? And should that actually go 228 00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:18.960 down now? as a stat that people recognize? 229 00:12:19.240 --> 00:12:21.539 Well, I could tell you this. If you want to 230 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:24.220 talk about getting dinged in a football game, I could 231 00:12:24.259 --> 00:12:26.799 tell you how many times I got dinged. Now, dinged 232 00:12:26.860 --> 00:12:30.159 to me is when you get hit or you have 233 00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:33.029 a head-to-head collision and you get up and you don't 234 00:12:33.070 --> 00:12:33.710 know where you're at. 235 00:12:34.210 --> 00:12:34.309 Oh. 236 00:12:34.549 --> 00:12:38.419 I could tell you how many times that happens. Okay? 237 00:12:38.899 --> 00:12:40.940 Wait, wait, wait, Leonard, Leonard, and you calling that just 238 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:41.500 a ding? 239 00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:42.059 Yeah. 240 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:43.860 There's gotta be a worse word for that. 241 00:12:43.980 --> 00:12:45.919 Come on, Leonard. 242 00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:49.309 It's called life-changing event in my life. It got banged 243 00:12:49.389 --> 00:12:52.570 upside the head. Come on, Leonard. Give me a word 244 00:12:52.610 --> 00:12:53.009 for that. 245 00:12:53.429 --> 00:12:56.710 Yeah, these are proud, tough guys who were playing a 246 00:12:56.730 --> 00:13:01.059 game for money. And the thing is, if you show softness, 247 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:03.419 guys will come after you. Yeah. 248 00:13:04.580 --> 00:13:06.120 They said, getting your bell rung. 249 00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:08.940 You got your bell rung. And I'm like, what is it? 250 00:13:08.940 --> 00:13:10.620 The Liberty Bell? Because God. 251 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:12.340 Yes. 252 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:15.330 See, the thing is, if you show the weakness, not 253 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:17.519 only are you lit up for your opponents, but your 254 00:13:17.570 --> 00:13:18.789 coach is looking and all the. 255 00:13:18.769 --> 00:13:20.850 Coaches around him is looking. And you don't get to 256 00:13:20.870 --> 00:13:22.710 play in the next game. It's survival. 257 00:13:22.850 --> 00:13:24.710 I had a nut job of a coach by the 258 00:13:24.750 --> 00:13:28.350 name of Lamar Leachman from Cartersville, Georgia. Let me tell 259 00:13:28.370 --> 00:13:31.940 you something. This guy, he looked like Herky Rock from 260 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:36.330 the Flintstones. He had a curly afro. He talked like 261 00:13:36.350 --> 00:13:39.039 he was black. He was a five foot eight, five 262 00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:45.029 foot nine white guy from Cartersville, Georgia. It just looked 263 00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:47.850 like Herky Rock, man. He had these big arms, little 264 00:13:47.889 --> 00:13:51.809 bitty legs. He was knock knee. It was just the funniest. 265 00:13:55.649 --> 00:13:57.269 I don't want to swear on you, but it was 266 00:13:57.289 --> 00:14:00.500 the funniest thing you had to see, man. And he'd 267 00:14:00.539 --> 00:14:03.299 walk around and he'd tease guys. He'd go, oh, what 268 00:14:03.340 --> 00:14:06.840 happened to you there, pretty? You were too soft on 269 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:08.000 that play. 270 00:14:08.019 --> 00:14:09.000 Oh, man, there it is. 271 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.220 And knocked the living, I don't know what, out of him. 272 00:14:11.460 --> 00:14:12.000 There it is. 273 00:14:12.539 --> 00:14:13.860 You know, you had guys like that. 274 00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:14.519 Wow. 275 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:16.990 So let me, I can quantify this because I did 276 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:24.629 a calculation, all right? So you were 6'4. And how 277 00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:26.049 fast did you run a 40? 278 00:14:26.049 --> 00:14:26.909 4.7 seconds. 279 00:14:27.049 --> 00:14:31.720 Damn, okay. And you came in at what? 280 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.159 I came in the NFL, I weighed 290 pounds. I 281 00:14:36.200 --> 00:14:38.080 slimmed down, I was at 18% body fat. I went 282 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:39.720 down to almost 9% body fat, 282 pounds, and I 283 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:42.259 could bench press 500 pounds and squat almost 800 pounds. Okay. 284 00:14:42.330 --> 00:14:52.860 And I'm telling you, When my coach had a motto, 285 00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:56.500 when hit, the body will bend or break. His deal 286 00:14:56.539 --> 00:14:58.850 was he wanted to see if somebody could knock a player, 287 00:14:59.179 --> 00:15:00.929 hit a player so hard that he could knock him 288 00:15:00.950 --> 00:15:02.529 into the middle of a lefty. 289 00:15:02.549 --> 00:15:03.149 Next Tuesday. 290 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:03.240 Yes. 291 00:15:03.509 --> 00:15:07.309 All right, so here's the thing. I did a calculation, 292 00:15:07.570 --> 00:15:11.049 all right? So there's the energy of a bullet fired 293 00:15:11.090 --> 00:15:14.860 from a rifle. So the AK-47, which is a high 294 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:17.740 muzzle velocity rifle, we've all heard of it, used to 295 00:15:18.259 --> 00:15:21.090 most of the rest of the world. and you can 296 00:15:21.129 --> 00:15:22.950 ask how much energy is in that bullet. And it 297 00:15:23.009 --> 00:15:30.070 turns out, you running into a quarterback, okay, at 15 298 00:15:30.070 --> 00:15:32.889 miles an hour, okay, not even as fast as you 299 00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:36.590 can run, just as fast as might be common, and 300 00:15:36.610 --> 00:15:39.429 you hit a quarterback, it is the same amount of 301 00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:43.980 kinetic energy as a bullet fired from an AK-47 weapon. 302 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:46.879 The difference is, of course, All the energy of the 303 00:15:46.899 --> 00:15:49.970 bullet is entering just a single

hole that it puts 304 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:52.330 in your body and it rips out your organs and 305 00:15:52.549 --> 00:15:56.190 it can kill you. Your energy is now spread. It's 306 00:15:56.230 --> 00:15:59.929 the same energy, but it's spread over the entire body 307 00:15:59.990 --> 00:16:04.600 of the person. So just to think about this, that 308 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.309 energy would normally kill someone in one spot. but now 309 00:16:10.389 --> 00:16:13.730 it's spread over. So the whole body is participating in 310 00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:16.870 absorbing the energy and that can't be good is what 311 00:16:16.909 --> 00:16:17.330 I'm saying. 312 00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:17.980 No. 313 00:16:18.529 --> 00:16:21.159 So you just touched on something. You just touched on 314 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.179 the reason why I could hate Mel from San Francisco today. 315 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:28.279 Oh, because of Joe. See, the thing is, what Joe 316 00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.710 should realize is it's a good thing that Leonard is 317 00:16:30.769 --> 00:16:34.539 as big as he is. No, so why don't you 318 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:35.120 speak to Jeff? 319 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:36.899 Oh, if he were little or he'd be dead. If 320 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:40.440 he was the size of a bullet. Oh, I see 321 00:16:40.539 --> 00:16:42.950 what you did there. 322 00:16:42.970 --> 00:16:43.889 Nice job. 323 00:16:43.929 --> 00:16:46.570 That's a good one, Gary. That's a good one. 324 00:16:46.610 --> 00:16:47.429 I know, don't worry. 325 00:16:48.029 --> 00:16:48.610 I'll spin him. 326 00:16:49.450 --> 00:16:51.330 Okay, so we gotta take a- How do we get 327 00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:53.330 somebody very little to hit Tom Brady? 328 00:16:55.009 --> 00:16:59.009 I gotta take a, my boy hates Tom Brady. Just 329 00:16:59.029 --> 00:17:01.649 because everybody's whooping the Phillies ass all the time. 330 00:17:01.669 --> 00:17:02.809 I mean, not the. 331 00:17:02.789 --> 00:17:05.319 Phillies, what are they called? The Eagles. 332 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:05.779 The Eagles. 333 00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:06.579 Okay, all right. 334 00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:08.579 I just will never forgive him. He took our first 335 00:17:08.619 --> 00:17:09.880 Super Bowl in my life. 336 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.579 All right, yeah, yeah. Okay, took it from you. It 337 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:13.769 was yours, right? He took it from you. 338 00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:14.400 In my life, yeah. 339 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:16.829 We got to take a break. Leonard, when we come back, 340 00:17:17.049 --> 00:17:19.670 more on this subject. And we're going to set up 341 00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:25.250 the whole table so that when Heather comes in, our neuroscientist, 342 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.519 in the third segment, she'll put a bow on all 343 00:17:28.539 --> 00:17:30.900 of this. And I just want to tell everyone that 344 00:17:31.259 --> 00:17:34.420 Heather brought you to us. You already know Heather. And 345 00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:37.660 this is, just spend it like 30 seconds how you 346 00:17:38.140 --> 00:17:39.299 found her and how you know each other. 347 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:43.400 I got introduced to Heather by an organization called Caring Kind, 348 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:45.779 which is in New York City, which I'm being honored 349 00:17:45.819 --> 00:17:49.180 for my work in ALS and traumatic brain injury. And 350 00:17:49.819 --> 00:17:51.960 a young lady by the name of Courtney Dawson thought 351 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:53.500 it would be good for me to talk to Heather 352 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.579 Because of my life, the traumatic brain injury I'm dealing with, 353 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.109 and the fact that CTE dominates my life now. And 354 00:18:00.170 --> 00:18:05.049 I combat it and fight it with marijuana and CBD. And, 355 00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:07.849 you know, that's. 356 00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:07.859 How I feel. 357 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.000 By the way, that's the same reason I combat my problem. 358 00:18:11.410 --> 00:18:16.029 Well, that's what you're marijuana. Okay, Chuck. 359 00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:20.140 That's what I tell everybody. I'm like, I'm fighting, man. 360 00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:21.140 I'm fighting problems. 361 00:18:21.380 --> 00:18:23.859 You got your own things. All right. I'm just trying 362 00:18:23.880 --> 00:18:26.890 to help Leonard Marshall out. I need it. 363 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:28.380 All right. 364 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:32.089 When we come back more with our Super Bowl NFL 365 00:18:32.109 --> 00:18:36.369 great Leonard Marshall, we're talking about concussions on StarTalk Sports Edition. 366 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:39.019 We're back. 367 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:43.259 StarTalk Sports Edition. And we've got somebody who is an 368 00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:50.359 NFL great by any metric who had sustained and persistent dings, 369 00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:55.079 as he called them. This is a head hit in 370 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.859 the NFL where you don't quite know where you are 371 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:01.460 when you get up. Yeah. And our man is here 372 00:19:01.579 --> 00:19:05.319 with us today, and it's Leonard Marshall, again, for our 373 00:19:05.380 --> 00:19:08.910 second segment here. Leonard, thanks for joining us. giving us 374 00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:12.230 this piece of your life and telling us what happened 375 00:19:12.250 --> 00:19:13.589 to you and how and why. 376 00:19:13.609 --> 00:19:16.450 And by the way, Leonard, just to let you know, 377 00:19:16.539 --> 00:19:21.799 the insurance companies actually used to allow you to determine 378 00:19:21.859 --> 00:19:25.910 how bad an accident was. they would say, describe, and 379 00:19:26.130 --> 00:19:28.150 anybody who caused the accident would be like. 380 00:19:28.450 --> 00:19:29.230 Oh, it's a ding. 381 00:19:29.250 --> 00:19:32.839 It's just a ding, right? And the person who received 382

00:19:32.930 --> 00:19:36.740 the accident was like, no, my car is total. My 383 00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:40.359 car is total. And now they say, do the airbags deploy? 384 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:41.500 That's how they determine. 385 00:19:41.539 --> 00:19:41.980 There it is. 386 00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:46.130 There it is. So, Leonard, you finished your career at 387 00:19:46.150 --> 00:19:46.750 what year was that? 388 00:19:46.750 --> 00:19:53.440 1996? 94 was my last active season. My child was 389 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:56.460 born in 1995. In 96, I decided to hang it up. 390 00:19:57.009 --> 00:20:00.509 There it is. And so years later, five, six years later, 391 00:20:00.569 --> 00:20:05.609 you went to UCLA for a diagnosis of your condition 392 00:20:06.490 --> 00:20:12.740 that would normally be identified via autopsy. This is freaky. 393 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.980 That's a freaky fact. Was there some new way to 394 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.279 make the measurement or did you just sort of force 395 00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:23.160 it in on people and say, look, something's going on, 396 00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:26.519 invent some new test because otherwise I don't want you 397 00:20:26.539 --> 00:20:27.539 to do this after I'm dead. 398 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.259 This is great how this happened. So I got a 399 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:32.519 phone call from my little brother who happened to be 400 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.019 teammates with Ronnie Hampton and Otis Anderson. And those two 401 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:41.559 guys were like, Very close to me. One was with 402 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:45.920 me in Super Bowl XXI, and one was with me 403 00:20:46.000 --> 00:20:48.529 in Super Bowl XXV, and then the other was just 404 00:20:48.549 --> 00:20:50.890 with me in Super Bowl XXV. So one, I played 405 00:20:50.930 --> 00:20:54.069 two championships. One, I played one championship. They told me 406 00:20:54.130 --> 00:20:56.150 about a program that was going on in an attorney 407 00:20:56.690 --> 00:20:58.950 out of Pittsburgh that I needed to speak to. My 408 00:20:59.019 --> 00:21:02.400 name is Jason Lukasevic. I'm a law firm Goldberg Perskin White. 409 00:21:03.059 --> 00:21:05.819 He said there's a program that's being implemented by Dr. 410 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:11.259 Bennett Amalu. Dr. Amalu happened to be a neuropathologist from 411 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.859 Allegheny County in Pennsylvania and working alongside of Jason Lukasevic's 412 00:21:15.980 --> 00:21:19.859 brother in that department, studying brains and autopsies of brains. 413 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:24.509 Long story short, Jason said, hey, Leonard, ESPN is partnering 414 00:21:24.529 --> 00:21:28.529 with Tarmark to do this brain scan at UCLA at 415 00:21:28.549 --> 00:21:31.150 the Nancy Regan Center. Are you interested? I said, well, 416 00:21:31.170 --> 00:21:34.470 who else was involved? He said, well, Joe DeLamallure, Hall 417 00:21:34.509 --> 00:21:38.390 of Famer, Mark Duper, a general Hall of Famer, and 418 00:21:39.049 --> 00:21:41.970 Tony Dorsett, Hall of Famer. Would you be interested in going? 419 00:21:42.009 --> 00:21:45.450 I said, count me in. We take the trip to LA, 420 00:21:45.809 --> 00:21:49.750 we go through the tar mark process. The process was 421 00:21:49.809 --> 00:21:53.470 put in place to determine CTE in the living. Everyone 422 00:21:53.509 --> 00:21:57.549 kept saying, there's no way you could do and perform 423 00:21:57.569 --> 00:22:03.150 CTE in the living or obtain the information to collectively 424 00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:07.869 convey CTE in the living without having these scans. and 425 00:22:07.890 --> 00:22:10.890 without having an autopsy of the brain. These guys proved 426 00:22:10.950 --> 00:22:13.450 it wrong, had to be wrong. And this group was 427 00:22:13.490 --> 00:22:18.019 based in Chicago, Illinois. So I took the trip, I 428 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:21.920 kicked the tires, ESPN recorded the whole process, and at 429 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:26.099 the end of the day, I came back, I had CTE. See, Dr. 430 00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:31.299 Amalo is the centrum of the film Concussion. 431 00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:32.059 Correct. 432 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.839 I was gonna say, yeah. Right, that's why you. 433 00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:34.279 Know the name. 434 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:35.599 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 435 00:22:35.619 --> 00:22:35.740 Right? 436 00:22:36.940 --> 00:22:41.039 Please describe to us what the doctors were looking for 437 00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:44.619 and how they went about testing. We said about an 438 00:22:44.779 --> 00:22:47.960 MRI brain scan, but what else did they piece together? 439 00:22:48.819 --> 00:22:51.819 Otherwise, in an autopsy, they open your skull, pull out 440 00:22:51.859 --> 00:22:54.170 your brain. and put it through a meat slicer. They 441 00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:56.009 had a nice thin slice, and they look at it 442 00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:58.289 under the microscope, and they say. 443 00:22:58.329 --> 00:22:59.089 Yep, he had. 444 00:22:59.930 --> 00:23:02.390 So I'm just glad they had another way. 445 00:23:03.890 --> 00:23:06.009 Me too, Neil. I mean, here's what was funny, Neil. 446 00:23:06.430 --> 00:23:10.059 They had a PET scan. They had a CAT scan. 447 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:15.880 They injected me with dye. I also did a neuropsych examination, 448 00:23:16.259 --> 00:23:19.880 an opportune test. And from that, they had to determine 449 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:24.630 that You know, his skill set is not where it 450 00:23:24.670 --> 00:23:28.059 should be, given his age, the number of years he 451 00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:32.140 played football, and what he's going through now. So I said, well, fellas, 452 00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:36.980 what do we do with this? We came back in 2011. 453 00:23:36.980 --> 00:23:40.700 Jason said, Leonard, I just got through talking to Vernon Maxwell. 454 00:23:41.380 --> 00:23:45.940

Vernon Maxwell is down to file this lawsuit regarding a 455 00:23:45.980 --> 00:23:48.789 concussion claim. Are you interested in doing it? I said, 456 00:23:48.950 --> 00:23:52.150 I'm interested in doing it under one synopsis. that we 457 00:23:52.190 --> 00:23:55.730 do it on my daughter's birthday so that if I 458 00:23:56.089 --> 00:24:00.289 forget because of the debilitation of my brain due to 459 00:24:00.450 --> 00:24:03.630 tall protein on my brain and the tall protein dominate 460 00:24:03.650 --> 00:24:06.730 my brain that my daughter can remember it, I want 461 00:24:06.750 --> 00:24:11.430 it on her birthday. That she'll know every year what 462 00:24:11.490 --> 00:24:15.650 her father stood for. That's what I did. 463 00:24:16.609 --> 00:24:18.990 Leonard, let me just say on behalf of your daughter, 464 00:24:19.529 --> 00:24:20.769 it's a hell of a lot of pressure to put 465 00:24:20.809 --> 00:24:21.210 on me, man. 466 00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:27.779 Stop joking. No, I'm joking. Daddy doesn't make it for 467 00:24:27.819 --> 00:24:30.619 another seven, eight, nine, 10 years. Baby, at least you 468 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.519 know there'll be something there for you at the end. 469 00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:36.319 No, no, I'm 100%. I think it's a great thing. 470 00:24:36.819 --> 00:24:39.339 It makes your daughter a part of your legacy, which 471 00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:42.380 is exactly what you were doing. And I think that's fantastic. 472 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:43.119 Yeah. 473 00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:46.240 I mean, yeah, I lost Reggie Roby. I lost Reggie 474 00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:49.960 Roby to this. I lost your ego, my brother, Andre Waters, 475 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:55.539 to this. Yes. Okay? Yes. You know, there's a couple 476 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.420 other guys. I won't mention names because they're dealing with 477 00:24:58.460 --> 00:25:01.619 it now. But I can tell you that my friend, 478 00:25:02.410 --> 00:25:08.650 who you know very well, your middle linebacker, Mr. Seth Joyner, 479 00:25:09.990 --> 00:25:11.970 was one of the guys that made me step out 480 00:25:11.990 --> 00:25:15.690 for Andre. Right. Because I had a conversation with him, 481 00:25:15.750 --> 00:25:18.730 and I told him, I said, Seth, I'm in New York. 482 00:25:19.509 --> 00:25:22.420 My voice will carry some, it'll carry some weight, man. 483 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.380 If I get behind this with my teammate, Harry Carson, 484 00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:28.960 we'll make enough noise that they'll listen. I said, you're 485 00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:31.779 in a little bit of a smaller market down in Philly. 486 00:25:32.420 --> 00:25:35.039 You know, they might not take it as serious, but 487 00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:38.309 go ahead, man. Make noise. That's your teammate. You know, 488 00:25:38.619 --> 00:25:39.940 that's your teammate, so. 489 00:25:40.349 --> 00:25:43.640 When we think of a concussion, typically, we think of 490 00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.440 a brain injury and the person doesn't know where they 491 00:25:46.579 --> 00:25:49.240 are and you gotta put them under observation for 12 hours. 492 00:25:49.619 --> 00:25:53.240 We're actually talking about something different here where it is 493 00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:58.549 the accumulation of smaller brain trauma. 494 00:25:58.829 --> 00:25:59.220 Correct. 495 00:25:59.930 --> 00:26:04.329 And so it, and what makes it particularly pernicious is 496 00:26:05.049 --> 00:26:08.400 You just pop back from that not thinking you really 497 00:26:08.440 --> 00:26:10.779 should have sat out the rest of the game. Thank you, Jeff. 498 00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:14.400 And you just keep going, and this accumulates, and then 499 00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:17.460 you get this condition. We're on the same page here. 500 00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:19.440 We're on the same page. I mean, think of it 501 00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.329 this way, Neil. Now, Chuck, you're a big football fan, 502 00:26:22.569 --> 00:26:25.609 and I'm quite sure everybody else on here is. My teammate, 503 00:26:25.650 --> 00:26:28.390 Lawrence Taylor, was known for using his health and his 504 00:26:28.410 --> 00:26:29.309 head here as a weapon. 505 00:26:29.690 --> 00:26:30.349 Leading with your head. 506 00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:32.579 Leading with your head. So if you led as a 507 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:34.900 defensive player with your head, you make contact. That's why 508 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.299 if you look at football today, they teach you not 509 00:26:37.339 --> 00:26:41.599 to lead with your head. That's because the word concussion 510 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:44.839 has been taken out of football. We want CTE to 511 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.769 be the word associated with football. Because we want people 512 00:26:47.789 --> 00:26:51.009 to know that accumulation of hits cause problems down the road. 513 00:26:52.369 --> 00:26:55.789 It's one thing to get concussed. It's something else to 514 00:26:56.130 --> 00:26:59.250 have the shakes and triggers and everything else associated with 515 00:26:59.509 --> 00:27:01.359 head trauma. Right, right. 516 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:05.460 Did putting a name to your condition help? And secondly, 517 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.359 when you spoke about the buildup of the tar protein 518 00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:13.700 in your brain, how did the doctors bring that forward 519 00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:16.789 for you to explain exactly what the process was, how 520 00:27:16.849 --> 00:27:20.369 it goes from you being hit to this development? Because 521 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:24.829 it seems funny that this can take so long to present. 522 00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:29.589 Well, when it was examined, and I left two people 523 00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:31.519 out of this, that need to be in this, Dr. 524 00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.980 Paul Nussbaum, my friend in Pittsburgh, and the team doctor 525 00:27:36.019 --> 00:27:40.299 for the Pittsburgh

Steelers, who was my classmate at LSU, Dr. 526 00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:43.819 Julian Bales, okay? And Julian Bales is in the film. 527 00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:48.539 He's portrayed by Alec Baldwin in the film, Concussions. And 528 00:27:49.220 --> 00:27:52.220 the relationship that he had with Cyril Weck, who was 529 00:27:52.269 --> 00:27:56.369 portrayed by, God, I can't think of his name off 530 00:27:56.390 --> 00:28:03.039 the top of my head. Cyril Weck and Julian Bales 531 00:28:03.099 --> 00:28:09.049 determined that this is what destroyed Mike Webster. It destroyed 532 00:28:09.069 --> 00:28:13.309 a number of Pittsburgh Steelers. You got to remember, that 533 00:28:13.369 --> 00:28:16.509 was a team that was known for bruising people, putting 534 00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:19.130 people in the hospital, leading with their headgear. They were 535 00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:21.490 taught and trained, and they played the game at a 536 00:28:21.529 --> 00:28:27.829 high level like that. That's, they were football and they 537 00:28:27.869 --> 00:28:30.880 were the godfathers of football. And if you were going 538 00:28:30.910 --> 00:28:34.500 to be a dominant football team, you had to play 539 00:28:34.539 --> 00:28:38.660 their style of football in order to be respected. And 540 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:41.839 that's who we were as the New York Giants. That's 541 00:28:41.859 --> 00:28:45.059 who we were during the era of my career. The 542 00:28:45.079 --> 00:28:48.420 game was a lot different, Dr. Neal, than it is today. 543 00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:52.559 I hear guys tell me they should call it something 544 00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:57.000 else ball. It's too soft of a game now. It's 545 00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:00.279 not men playing a game for money now. It's little 546 00:29:00.339 --> 00:29:03.079 boys playing a game with quarterbacks with skirts on them 547 00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:03.839 and such and such. 548 00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:07.140 Oh, interesting. Just to be clear, because I like getting 549 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:11.450 the long view on these things, what would the Leatherheads 550 00:29:11.470 --> 00:29:14.190 have said about the modern football where you have all 551 00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:18.759 of this equipment? Before football even had leather helmets, Right. 552 00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:22.099 You go back 120 years, whatever, whenever that was. So 553 00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:26.210 I don't think it's something if you the arc of 554 00:29:26.250 --> 00:29:29.769 the game has been to protect your life. Right. 555 00:29:30.109 --> 00:29:32.309 So, however, I'm going to push back on that just 556 00:29:32.369 --> 00:29:33.089 a little bit. 557 00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:34.069 Yeah. 558 00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:38.809 The number of injuries in the leatherhead era of football 559 00:29:39.089 --> 00:29:42.420 was actually large. less because the pads and the helmets 560 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:48.430 actually became a weapon. So it gave players the

ability 561 00:29:48.609 --> 00:29:53.150 to run faster, hit harder, and make higher impacts, but 562 00:29:53.349 --> 00:29:57.299 also because of the equipment they were wearing to also 563 00:29:57.380 --> 00:29:58.579 do more damage. 564 00:29:58.900 --> 00:30:02.480 Okay, but also they weighed 170 pounds, you know. Well, 565 00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:03.140 that's it. 566 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:03.619 All right. 567 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:10.259 You had a bunch of tough nicest running around the floor. 568 00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:11.119 Right, right, right. 569 00:30:11.299 --> 00:30:14.299 Okay, Gary, keep going because I know you've got more. 570 00:30:14.779 --> 00:30:18.960 How many players currently with us, NFL players, have been 571 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:23.220 diagnosed with CTE? And I'll go back to two moments 572 00:30:23.779 --> 00:30:29.769 in history. 2011, David Dawson. 2012, Junior Sal. Both, tragically, 573 00:30:30.450 --> 00:30:31.309 took their own lives. 574 00:30:31.829 --> 00:30:32.650 Both friends of mine. 575 00:30:33.650 --> 00:30:34.549 I'm sorry, fella, then. 576 00:30:34.869 --> 00:30:35.369 Yeah, man. 577 00:30:35.390 --> 00:30:39.720 Did that, resonate for you? And were those two points 578 00:30:39.819 --> 00:30:43.359 in time something that brought the football community to a 579 00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:46.460 better understanding? Or did it just say, oh, well, that's 580 00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:47.200 sad and move on? 581 00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.289 I'll tell you why. Well, what I think, okay? David 582 00:30:51.309 --> 00:30:53.390 and I were, David Durison and I were really close 583 00:30:53.430 --> 00:30:56.329 because he was a former Bear player. He joined my 584 00:30:56.349 --> 00:30:58.849 team in 1990. We won the Super Bowl with him 585 00:31:00.170 --> 00:31:03.730 as a backup safety player. And he played a pivotal 586 00:31:03.769 --> 00:31:06.750 role in the progression of our team the whole entire season. 587 00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:10.950 His wife was from Baton Rouge. I knew his family 588 00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:16.410 because of that. He pledged Omega Psi Phi in my fraternity. 589 00:31:17.630 --> 00:31:19.789 I wrote an intake letter for him. I became a 590 00:31:19.809 --> 00:31:22.970 real brother to him. And I introduced him into the 591 00:31:22.990 --> 00:31:26.049 fraternity through Chicago and a bunch of friends in Chicago. 592 00:31:28.579 --> 00:31:30.579 David had a great business. He had a great mind. 593 00:31:30.619 --> 00:31:33.140 He was on the board of Notre Dame. He was 594 00:31:34.779 --> 00:31:38.440 the number two supplier of breakfast meat. to McDonald's and 595 00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:39.900 Burger King worldwide. 596 00:31:40.470 --> 00:31:40.789 Wow. 597 00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:44.630 He had a real strong head for business and, uh, 598 00:31:45.089 --> 00:31:47.930 you know, just a really good guy. The same applied 599 00:31:47.950 --> 00:31:51.430 for Junior Seau. Uh, and,

and, and what was, what 600 00:31:51.490 --> 00:31:56.509 was striking for me was when we introduced the movie concussions, uh, 601 00:31:56.670 --> 00:31:59.910 out in LA to the world. Um, I got a 602 00:31:59.930 --> 00:32:02.789 chance to sit with, uh, Junior Seau and his, Junior 603 00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:07.079 Seau's family and his daughter, um, at the, uh, the 604 00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:10.799 premiere of the film, and just listen to his daughter 605 00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:13.480 talk about her dad and talk about what it meant 606 00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:16.349 growing up with him in the household and everything else. 607 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:21.109 And it was just sad how she talked that, you know, 608 00:32:21.829 --> 00:32:24.529 I will never have those moments in time again with him. 609 00:32:24.549 --> 00:32:29.190 I will never understand who my father really was outside 610 00:32:29.230 --> 00:32:34.990 of football. It will always reflect on me that his 611 00:32:35.049 --> 00:32:38.089 life was football. He played in the league, what, 17, 612 00:32:38.089 --> 00:32:42.559 18 years. It just, it just, it was, it really 613 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.960 hit me, hit home for me, man. That's why I 614 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:48.380 say what I say, you know. I have a daughter 615 00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:53.009 and someday she's going to reflect upon what my body 616 00:32:53.029 --> 00:32:56.089 of work was. And I just wanted to have the 617 00:32:56.170 --> 00:32:59.710 fondest memories of that. You know, my father stood for something. 618 00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:02.539 He was a principal kind of dude and he didn't 619 00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:04.339 let his brothers down. That's it. 620 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:08.430 You know, I keep thinking, I keep thinking, why is 621 00:33:08.529 --> 00:33:12.559 any of this even a lawsuit? It should just be, yeah, okay, 622 00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:15.180 this is, you know, NFL is not short of money. 623 00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:19.059 And of course, this affliction is many people, but it's 624 00:33:19.099 --> 00:33:22.700 not everyone in the NFL, right? It's probably not happening 625 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:29.130 to the place kickers, right? So it would be a 626 00:33:29.369 --> 00:33:34.109 sad indictment of the NFL, right? if the only resolution 627 00:33:34.130 --> 00:33:36.799 to come of this is only after they are sued, 628 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.140 I mean, that just looks bad. It means they're reluctant, resistant. 629 00:33:42.420 --> 00:33:45.339 I'll do it if court makes us do it, but otherwise, no. 630 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:49.200 I mean, what industry are we all supporting out here? 631 00:33:49.539 --> 00:33:51.799 Look at it this way, Dr. Clayson. 70% of the 632 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:56.230 National Football League is black. The players are African-American, okay? 633 00:33:56.430 --> 00:34:00.970 We sued, okay? There was an award of a settlement. 634 00:34:00.970 --> 00:34:04.980 90%

of players that retire from the NFL are going 635 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:08.119 to end up with CTE. That's a fact. That came 636 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:13.650 from Dr. Ann McKee at Boston University. And also Dr. 637 00:34:13.690 --> 00:34:18.829 Robert McCann. So these are things that we know. Now 638 00:34:18.869 --> 00:34:23.400 there's racial norming in this case, where the neuropsychs have 639 00:34:23.539 --> 00:34:27.670 taken race and used race against people. the 70% black 640 00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:31.809 players to say, well, you had a learning disability to 641 00:34:31.849 --> 00:34:36.449 begin with. So you're probably dumb now because you had 642 00:34:36.489 --> 00:34:37.250 that issue. 643 00:34:37.030 --> 00:34:38.829 When you were a kid. 644 00:34:39.210 --> 00:34:43.280 And it's just an articulation of you growing your life, 645 00:34:43.610 --> 00:34:47.800 but yet you're not getting any smarter. Well, that's much 646 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:48.760 worse yet. 647 00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:51.900 For what people don't realize what Leonard's talking about is 648 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:54.420 if we go back to the aptitude test that he 649 00:34:54.460 --> 00:34:56.949 talked about, that he had to take. So what happens 650 00:34:57.010 --> 00:35:00.340 is all the players have to take these neuropsych aptitude 651 00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:04.099 tests where they have to answer a certain amount of 652 00:35:04.179 --> 00:35:07.579 questions to see how proficient they are mentally. And so 653 00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:12.239 the NFL is saying, basically, you guys are at a 654 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:17.000 lower rate coming in because you're not that smart coming in. 655 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:21.860 So you didn't lose any real brain function because your 656 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:26.010 brain function was already low. And as a result, these 657 00:35:26.110 --> 00:35:31.110 players are now not... The funds to protect these players 658 00:35:31.550 --> 00:35:35.269 after they played are no longer available to these players that... 659 00:35:35.510 --> 00:35:36.630 do not do as well on the test. 660 00:35:36.670 --> 00:35:38.449 So that's the Wunderlich test, isn't it? 661 00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:41.639 No, the Wunderlich is what you use when you come 662 00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:44.380 into the game. But in the 16 PF, it used 663 00:35:44.420 --> 00:35:46.980 to be in the performance. Those three other pictures used 664 00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:48.519 to be used when you were coming into the league. 665 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:51.019 Those declared whether you were going to be a first, second, 666 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.280 or third round grab pick, or if you're going to 667 00:35:53.300 --> 00:35:56.530 be selected at all. Because you can't read that playbook 668 00:35:56.570 --> 00:35:58.849 and learn it. It's one thing to read it. It's 669 00:35:58.869 --> 00:36:02.489 another thing to comprehend it. So you have players that 670 00:36:02.530

--> 00:36:05.409 are like that. I mean, you know, I've seen some guys, 671 00:36:05.789 --> 00:36:10.050 their talent outweighs their smarts on the field. And that's 672 00:36:10.090 --> 00:36:11.250 the kind of play you just kind of let them 673 00:36:11.289 --> 00:36:14.050 go and do what he's got to do. But got 674 00:36:14.070 --> 00:36:16.780 the other situation that's going on with the racial norming that, 675 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:19.480 you know, that they're saying that, well, you weren't that 676 00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:22.119 smart to begin with. You barely had a C average 677 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:25.179 in college. And now we're giving you this test. You're 678 00:36:25.219 --> 00:36:28.440 testing at a D grade level. So we don't think 679 00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:31.900 that you were injured or anything happened to your brain. 680 00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:36.929 We just take you down. That's not cool. That's not cool. 681 00:36:37.010 --> 00:36:40.369 All right, Leonard, you mentioned two doctors, Dr. McKee, Dr. 682 00:36:40.429 --> 00:36:43.090 Ann McKee, and Dr. Robert Cantu. They're part of the 683 00:36:43.150 --> 00:36:44.920 Concussion Legacy Foundation? 684 00:36:45.260 --> 00:36:46.179 That's correct. Right. 685 00:36:46.539 --> 00:36:51.320 So someone out there is fighting the good fight. How 686 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:55.880 far are they getting with this? Are they progressing at all? 687 00:36:56.219 --> 00:36:58.590 Is there some kind of way that they are making progress? 688 00:37:00.599 --> 00:37:03.210 Well, I'm on the board of CLF. And CLF is 689 00:37:03.250 --> 00:37:07.110 doing everything they can. Chris Lewinsky does a fantastic job 690 00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:10.949 fighting for players and their families and their kids' kids. 691 00:37:12.230 --> 00:37:15.159 So I can't say enough good things about CLF. 692 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:16.119 Dr. 693 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:20.599 McKee and Dr. Cantu have always been the brain trust 694 00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:24.460 behind what's going on with the science of the brain 695 00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:27.760 and how it affects former players in both the NHL 696 00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:32.019 the NFL, and some that have been injured in the 697 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:36.239 NBA and Major League Baseball. So, you know, the work 698 00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:44.869 that they do is consequential to a high level of 699 00:37:47.230 --> 00:37:51.139 transparency to players in that family. And we respect and 700 00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:56.760 appreciate that. I think that some people don't. Like Dr. 701 00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:59.679 Tyson was talking about, they don't respect the science and 702 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:05.110 the science doesn't lie. The science is the science. Bottom line, 703 00:38:05.469 --> 00:38:06.610 the science is the science. 704 00:38:07.070 --> 00:38:10.130 You're in the right place for that, Leonard. You are 705 00:38:10.170 --> 00:38:11.289 definitely in the right place. 706 00:38:11.730 --> 00:38:15.380 So we got to bring this segment to a close. 707 00:38:15.420 --> 00:38:19.840 Just before we do, you've been very active just as 708 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:23.380 a proponent and as a supporter of all these causes 709 00:38:23.500 --> 00:38:27.349 related to just People's Health after, you know, just is 710 00:38:27.369 --> 00:38:29.070 the title of your book all over again, When the 711 00:38:29.110 --> 00:38:32.530 Cheering Stops. Are you up for an award coming up? 712 00:38:32.630 --> 00:38:35.329 I'm up for an award. You bring it up, Dr. 713 00:38:35.369 --> 00:38:39.909 Tyson. I'm up for an award from Caring Kind. The 714 00:38:39.929 --> 00:38:42.760 dinner is at the Pierre Hotel in New York, St. 715 00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:47.360 Pierre Hotel in New York. It happens on June the 6th, 2022. 716 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:51.420 And it's the ALS Society that's honoring me for my work. 717 00:38:51.869 --> 00:38:52.550 in this space. 718 00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:53.130 Oh, man. 719 00:38:53.190 --> 00:38:55.369 In fact, I've been a real proponent and advocate. 720 00:38:55.389 --> 00:38:55.469 Good. 721 00:38:55.630 --> 00:38:56.690 Congratulations, Leonard. 722 00:38:56.710 --> 00:38:57.389 Thank you very much. 723 00:38:57.409 --> 00:38:59.170 Well, I'll tell you this. If we gave awards, we'd 724 00:38:59.190 --> 00:39:01.650 give you an award right now. That's right. 725 00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:03.449 But it wouldn't be at the Pierre Hotel. 726 00:39:03.550 --> 00:39:04.170 No. 727 00:39:04.739 --> 00:39:06.300 That place is expensive. 728 00:39:06.340 --> 00:39:09.000 Chuck, Chuck, you can be calm. 729 00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:10.340 No, we'll do drive-thru. 730 00:39:10.699 --> 00:39:11.800 That's Park Avenue. 731 00:39:11.619 --> 00:39:12.159 East, baby. 732 00:39:12.179 --> 00:39:13.300 It is. 733 00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:13.699 It is. 734 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:18.840 He's right. So, Leonard, it's been a delight. to have you, 735 00:39:18.860 --> 00:39:21.269 a kind of sad delight. I mean, I'm glad somebody's 736 00:39:21.309 --> 00:39:25.969 paying attention to this. And that it's, um, and it 737 00:39:26.150 --> 00:39:32.329 sounds like all, all forces are aligned to resolve this 738 00:39:32.389 --> 00:39:35.650 in some way to redress the problems that have happened 739 00:39:35.670 --> 00:39:38.260 before and to prevent them from ever happening again. And 740 00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:41.510 we got to shed a little bit of that testosterone 741 00:39:41.550 --> 00:39:44.960 macho on the field. It's still an entertaining game, you know, 742 00:39:44.980 --> 00:39:51.429 it's still drawn the crowds. And I, you know, to 743 00:39:51.449 --> 00:39:53.369 be tackled doesn't mean you have to not get up 744 00:39:53.510 --> 00:39:55.630 after it, okay? I'm just saying. 745 00:39:55.670 --> 00:39:58.210 You can't take contact out of this sport, because if 746 00:39:58.250 --> 00:40:01.030 you do, this is no

longer NFL football. 747 00:40:01.070 --> 00:40:03.030 I get it, but there are ways to make contact 748 00:40:03.050 --> 00:40:05.090 where you're not a bullet passing through somebody's. 749 00:40:05.730 --> 00:40:07.550 Yeah, yeah. The only way to take it out is 750 00:40:07.570 --> 00:40:09.579 to take the head out, and you can't take the 751 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:10.280 head out of football. 752 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.920 That would be weird if you just had bodies running 753 00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.579 up and down, headless bodies. 754 00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:18.800 Can't do it. 755 00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:22.059 All right, Leonard, it's been a delight. Thank you for 756 00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:26.800 being on StarTalk. We're going to pivot now to Heather 757 00:40:26.820 --> 00:40:30.269 Berlin in our third segment, and we'll tell her you 758 00:40:30.289 --> 00:40:33.190 said hi, Leonard, and we're delighted that she brought you 759 00:40:33.530 --> 00:40:40.250 to us. Godspeed, stay healthy, and give us a holler 760 00:40:40.269 --> 00:40:41.949 again if you've got more to tell about this story. 761 00:40:41.989 --> 00:40:46.059 I certainly will, guys. All right, dude. When we come back, 762 00:40:46.280 --> 00:40:50.480 our third segment will be with our Our neuroscientist at large, 763 00:40:50.659 --> 00:40:55.309 Heather Berlin, will sort of figure out what's going on 764 00:40:55.349 --> 00:40:58.789 here and why and where it's going to head in 765 00:40:58.829 --> 00:41:01.570 the future of the sport. This is StarTalk. See you 766 00:41:01.590 --> 00:41:05.909 in a moment. We're back. StarTalk Sports Edition. We're talking 767 00:41:05.929 --> 00:41:12.409 about concussions and many concussions, actually. The kind that accumulate 768 00:41:12.900 --> 00:41:16.679 and turn into something really bad later in life. Something that, 769 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:22.179 of course... football players suffer from. Many didn't even know 770 00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:26.280 that this was going on. And in particular, we went 771 00:41:26.300 --> 00:41:29.860 through two segments with our special guest, Leonard Marshall, former 772 00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:34.730 football player with the New York Giants, two-time Super Bowler. 773 00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:37.869 And Chuck, was he an offensive tackle? Is that what 774 00:41:37.949 --> 00:41:41.070 his title was? Defensive. No, he was defensive. Defensive tackle, 775 00:41:41.090 --> 00:41:41.630 protecting the. 776 00:41:42.530 --> 00:41:44.130 Coming after guys. 777 00:41:44.610 --> 00:41:45.530 Mm-hmm. 778 00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:48.409 So he's coming after the other team's quarterback. He's a 779 00:41:48.429 --> 00:41:49.920 hit man. That's what he is. 780 00:41:50.110 --> 00:41:50.940 He was very good at it. 781 00:41:51.820 --> 00:41:52.099 Yes. 782 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:53.780 He was more than very good at it. Him and 783 00:41:53.800 --> 00:41:57.760 Lawrence Taylor together. They were. 784 00:41:59.199 --> 00:42:00.119 I hate them so much. 785 00:42:00.139 --> 00:42:01.099 They were a wrecking crew. 786 00:42:01.699 --> 00:42:02.739 They were so awful. 787 00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.780 Against your team. Yes, exactly. They made it so hard 788 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:09.739 for me. For you and your Eagles. 789 00:42:10.139 --> 00:42:10.480 So. 790 00:42:11.289 --> 00:42:14.449 They plucked the eagle's bald. Ooh, that was a good one. 791 00:42:14.570 --> 00:42:18.289 That was a good one. So we don't have particular 792 00:42:18.369 --> 00:42:20.269 expertise in the neurology of this, but of course we 793 00:42:20.289 --> 00:42:25.090 have a friend of StarTalk, our go-to person, our neuroscientist 794 00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:27.590 at large, Heather Berlin. Heather, welcome back to StarTalk. 795 00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:29.340 Always a pleasure. Thanks for having me. 796 00:42:30.260 --> 00:42:32.440 Yeah, so he mentioned that he had a battery of 797 00:42:32.500 --> 00:42:37.880 tests that in recent years enabled medical professionals to diagnose 798 00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:42.900 this accumulation of small bits of brain damage known as CTE. 799 00:42:42.940 --> 00:42:44.360 And I always forget what that stands for. 800 00:42:44.469 --> 00:42:47.849 It's chronic traumatic encephalopathy. 801 00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:54.570 Hence the abbreviation CTE. And so, so my head hurts 802 00:42:54.590 --> 00:42:56.150 just saying that. Yeah, I know. 803 00:42:56.170 --> 00:42:56.329 Right. 804 00:42:56.630 --> 00:43:00.050 Right. So what we had learned was in the day, 805 00:43:00.530 --> 00:43:02.760 you would never know this until the patient was dead. 806 00:43:03.179 --> 00:43:07.179 And then you do your normal brain slicing on the autopsy. 807 00:43:07.510 --> 00:43:10.449 But apparently there's some progress where you can do this 808 00:43:10.530 --> 00:43:16.110 in the living patient. But how definitive can that be 809 00:43:16.190 --> 00:43:18.789 relative to just say, look, give me your brain, I'll 810 00:43:18.809 --> 00:43:20.250 slice it open and then I'll let you know. 811 00:43:21.630 --> 00:43:24.309 I mean, still the gold standard, if you want to 812 00:43:24.369 --> 00:43:29.780 know with 100%, you know, definitive is to look postpartum. 813 00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:31.960 It's the same thing with Alzheimer's as well. You really 814 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:37.090 have to see these... particular pattern of these plaques, these 815 00:43:37.130 --> 00:43:40.909 tau proteins, and these tangles. But if you kind of 816 00:43:40.989 --> 00:43:44.449 piece together a bunch of different tests, some MRI, and 817 00:43:44.469 --> 00:43:48.760 there's particular patterns looking at PET and tau buildup in 818 00:43:48.820 --> 00:43:52.079 particular parts of the brain, along with these clinical tests 819 00:43:52.139 --> 00:43:55.460 like neurocognitive testing, you can start to get a full 820 00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:00.820 picture where you can

give a pretty accurate diagnosis of CTE, 821 00:44:00.860 --> 00:44:04.059 but it's still not 100% until you actually see the 822 00:44:04.099 --> 00:44:06.239 neuropathology in the brain itself. 823 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:10.739 I know Chuck and Gary are busting with questions. Gary, 824 00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:12.000 what do you have for her right now? 825 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:17.699 The tau protein, it just changes and develops in a 826 00:44:17.739 --> 00:44:21.679 certain way, doctor. So how is it changing? Why is 827 00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:24.630 it changing from an impact? But it doesn't change. Normally, 828 00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:27.869 if you have impact on the body, a bruise appears. 829 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:34.179 But this protein change happens years... And the bruise heals, right? 830 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:38.820 And then the change happens maybe decades later. So what 831 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:40.800 is the process that's going on in there? 832 00:44:42.199 --> 00:44:43.300 So, okay. 833 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:46.739 Part of it is right when you get the impact, 834 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:51.840 you have this kind of neurochemical cascade that occurs. You 835 00:44:51.860 --> 00:44:56.239 have the release of certain... you have basically what's called 836 00:44:56.320 --> 00:45:02.130 neural depolarization, which releases these excitatory neurotransmitters. And it kind 837 00:45:02.170 --> 00:45:04.969 of shifts the balance in the brain. It changes the 838 00:45:05.010 --> 00:45:09.449 glucose metabolism and the blood flow. And then that in 839 00:45:09.510 --> 00:45:13.980 turn can impair the axonal function. So basically, a lot 840 00:45:14.019 --> 00:45:16.699 of these tau proteins are in the white matter. They're 841 00:45:16.739 --> 00:45:19.880 in the sort of microtubules of the brain. And when 842 00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:23.650 you have this complex neurochemical system, cascade that occurs when 843 00:45:23.670 --> 00:45:27.030 there's been a traumatic injury, it sets off this process, 844 00:45:27.489 --> 00:45:30.369 which has a distinct, you know, in the course of 845 00:45:30.409 --> 00:45:32.730 a couple of days, you can see it a distinct 846 00:45:32.789 --> 00:45:36.639 sort of process, but then it can take years for 847 00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:38.900 the sort of full damage for the death of the 848 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:41.460 neurons to occur. Cause there's sort of a buildup. If 849 00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:44.360 you think of it like, um, you know, in the arteries, 850 00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:48.019 when you're having a kind of buildup of plaque over time, 851 00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:50.030 but it doesn't, it takes a while until you actually 852 00:45:50.070 --> 00:45:53.050 have like a heart attack, right? So if you think of, 853 00:45:53.449 --> 00:45:56.119 in the most simplest terms, like a buildup of sort 854 00:45:56.139 --> 00:45:59.699 of gunk that was set off by this initial neurochemical process, 855 00:45:59.739 --> 00:46:03.860 and over time it can lead to neuronal death. And 856 00:46:03.940 --> 00:46:05.840 I think that's the easiest way to explain it without 857 00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:06.659 getting too into it. 858 00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:09.530 And the neuronal death, when you're talking about the death 859 00:46:09.570 --> 00:46:17.010 of these neurons, so basically that's the transmission of information 860 00:46:17.050 --> 00:46:19.760 in the brain. That's how the brain talks to the brain. Right. 861 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:21.880 Well, I mean, it's mostly, you know, these, it's the 862 00:46:22.019 --> 00:46:24.610 white matter. So, so think about this. You have the brain, 863 00:46:24.650 --> 00:46:26.969 this very soft piece of matter inside a very rough 864 00:46:27.110 --> 00:46:31.150 bony skull that has all these little ridges. And when 865 00:46:31.190 --> 00:46:35.230 you get this acceleration deceleration event, the brain kind of 866 00:46:35.389 --> 00:46:36.449 shakes within this. 867 00:46:36.469 --> 00:46:38.110 That's the polite way to say you got hit in 868 00:46:38.130 --> 00:46:38.409 the head. 869 00:46:38.610 --> 00:46:38.809 Right. 870 00:46:38.909 --> 00:46:40.369 Exactly. 871 00:46:41.050 --> 00:46:42.289 You get banged in the head. 872 00:46:43.449 --> 00:46:46.289 You get banged, the acceleration deceleration, you get banged in 873 00:46:46.309 --> 00:46:46.469 the head. 874 00:46:46.570 --> 00:46:47.110 Exactly. 875 00:46:47.190 --> 00:46:49.630 And sometimes they technically, we call it a coup counter 876 00:46:49.670 --> 00:46:52.170 coup event, but there's rocking sort of back and forth. 877 00:46:52.949 --> 00:46:55.880 Now there's different density between the gray matter and the 878 00:46:55.909 --> 00:46:58.500 white matter in the brain. So they kind of stretch 879 00:46:58.559 --> 00:47:01.300 and they move at different rates. So that causes a 880 00:47:01.539 --> 00:47:05.139 stretching or tearing or shearing in the white matter. Um, 881 00:47:05.219 --> 00:47:07.219 when you have the kind of shaking of the, of 882 00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:10.909 the brain within the skull, this tearing causes this neurochemical 883 00:47:10.949 --> 00:47:13.710 cascade that I, that I spoke about, but that's how 884 00:47:13.750 --> 00:47:16.889 they communicate the white matter where this shearing effect occurs, 885 00:47:17.150 --> 00:47:21.110 this tearing, this pulling, it affects the communication between different 886 00:47:21.150 --> 00:47:24.820 brain areas. Um, and ultimately, so that's one aspect that 887 00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:27.280 can cause some of the symptoms. Um, and the other 888 00:47:27.300 --> 00:47:31.489 is that you have a, eventually this, um, this neurodegeneration 889 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:34.440 where you start to have brain death, which is akin 890 00:47:34.460 --> 00:47:37.019 to kind of what happens in an Alzheimer's process or 891 00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.199 other neurodegenerative

disorders. 892 00:47:40.300 --> 00:47:44.139 On a personal level, Heather, I headed a football or 893 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.139 a soccer ball, if you prefer, for many years and 894 00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:50.480 quite some time ago. And I would have last played 895 00:47:50.500 --> 00:47:53.900 a competitive game in the mid-90s. 896 00:47:55.769 --> 00:47:58.699 So the question is how long will it be before 897 00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.559 Gary can no longer have this conversation? 898 00:48:03.980 --> 00:48:08.460 Well, so, you know, it, it kind of, it, it, 899 00:48:08.500 --> 00:48:10.940 there's a couple of things. It could set off a process. 900 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:13.639 If you already have a kind of vulnerability toward a 901 00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:16.659 neurodegenerative disorder, it could make you more vulnerable. So there's 902 00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:20.469 something we call cognitive reserve, which is basically kind of 903 00:48:20.550 --> 00:48:22.570 what is your baseline? If you have a lot of 904 00:48:22.630 --> 00:48:25.980 different connections in the brain, you know, that you can 905 00:48:26.119 --> 00:48:29.199 afford to lose a little bit of cognitive function or 906 00:48:29.219 --> 00:48:32.619 a little bit of structural stability or integrity and still 907 00:48:32.659 --> 00:48:34.559 kind of be okay and get. 908 00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:34.840 By, right? 909 00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.860 So- So Heather, we have no idea how smart Gary 910 00:48:38.900 --> 00:48:40.780 was before the show. 911 00:48:41.159 --> 00:48:46.550 We only know him- in his current state. 912 00:48:47.210 --> 00:48:49.170 We only know him in his current state. But Gary, 913 00:48:49.190 --> 00:48:51.269 you said it's not only did you use your head 914 00:48:51.329 --> 00:48:53.409 during the game, you practiced. 915 00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:56.840 And you have to learn a technique to head a 916 00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:59.719 football in the most efficient way. 917 00:49:00.340 --> 00:49:02.219 Which is how? Your forehead? 918 00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:03.239 You made it on the forehead, yeah. 919 00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:05.239 Made it right on the forehead. 920 00:49:05.300 --> 00:49:09.949 Worst case. And you develop muscular density here to strengthen 921 00:49:10.329 --> 00:49:12.750 so you don't get the whiplash if the ball hits 922 00:49:12.750 --> 00:49:14.940 you in the head when you connect with it. So 923 00:49:14.940 --> 00:49:18.090 you develop things like you would with muscles for running. 924 00:49:18.090 --> 00:49:19.570 So you develop neck muscles. 925 00:49:19.570 --> 00:49:19.690 I see. 926 00:49:19.710 --> 00:49:23.260 So you've protected your neck vertebrae, but your brain is mush. 927 00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:23.880 Probably. 928 00:49:23.889 --> 00:49:24.539 That's what you're saying. 929 00:49:24.860 --> 00:49:25.420 More or less. 930 00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:28.400 Listen, it's not a good thing to be bunting balls 931 00:49:28.420

--> 00:49:33.659 with your head. But the thing is, not everybody develops CTE, right? 932 00:49:33.820 --> 00:49:34.949 It's a percentage. 933 00:49:35.550 --> 00:49:36.550 Keep cheering me up, doctor. 934 00:49:37.690 --> 00:49:38.710 Oh, good. 935 00:49:38.829 --> 00:49:39.190 Okay. 936 00:49:39.210 --> 00:49:43.289 So maybe 30%, I think, is the statistic of the 937 00:49:43.329 --> 00:49:46.489 people who are, let's say, playing in sports that are 938 00:49:46.570 --> 00:49:49.889 bunting their head or taking a lot of hits. And 939 00:49:49.949 --> 00:49:53.989 so I think we still don't fully understand why certain 940 00:49:54.030 --> 00:49:56.489 people develop it and others don't. Certain people have multiple 941 00:49:56.590 --> 00:49:59.500 concussions over time. It could have to do with certain vulnerabilities. 942 00:49:59.539 --> 00:50:01.400 It could have to do with the age at which 943 00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:04.719 you started having these small head injuries. 944 00:50:04.739 --> 00:50:05.519 Wow. 945 00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:08.320 And it's kind of like COVID right now. Some people 946 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:11.219 get it and it's devastating and horrible and others are 947 00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:13.980 asymptomatic and perfectly fine. And I think that there is 948 00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:16.820 an underlying mechanism. It could be related to genetics. We 949 00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:19.949 don't know yet. But so there's some hope for you. 950 00:50:20.929 --> 00:50:23.369 Gary, were you wearing a mask while you were heading 951 00:50:23.409 --> 00:50:25.489 the ball? 952 00:50:25.710 --> 00:50:27.570 That's the most important thing. 953 00:50:28.010 --> 00:50:29.969 Were you socially distanced? 954 00:50:30.570 --> 00:50:36.570 Heather, I've read that there are no pain... neurons in 955 00:50:36.590 --> 00:50:39.190 the brain, is that right? So you would have no 956 00:50:39.289 --> 00:50:44.010 idea that you were undergoing this slow damage. Whereas a 957 00:50:44.110 --> 00:50:47.489 tiny little pinprick anywhere on your skin, you would know, 958 00:50:48.139 --> 00:50:49.610 even in the most obscure places. 959 00:50:50.010 --> 00:50:52.800 Yeah, I mean, do you think- Especially in the most 960 00:50:52.900 --> 00:50:53.679 obscure places. 961 00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:57.360 Chuck. 962 00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:00.679 That is one of the most fascinating things about the 963 00:51:00.699 --> 00:51:02.860 brain is, so I'm fortunate enough to be involved in 964 00:51:02.900 --> 00:51:07.039 some- neurosurgery when we're doing brain mapping. So for example, 965 00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:09.119 we want to map out a person's getting a lesion 966 00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:10.820 removed and we want to make sure we don't take 967 00:51:10.860 --> 00:51:14.010 out their language area. So we, while they're in surgery, 968 00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:16.389 we can wake them up. We can be inside. 969 00:51:16.530 --> 00:51:18.630 That's nice of you. That's nice of you to just 970 00:51:18.670 --> 00:51:22.489 not want to take out. You sound like a military operation. 971 00:51:22.510 --> 00:51:28.389 So how are you feeling? They're fine. 972 00:51:28.409 --> 00:51:30.329 They're fine. 973 00:51:30.409 --> 00:51:32.530 It's like young Frank, young Frankenstein. 974 00:51:32.829 --> 00:51:36.559 All right. But no, so piece by piece, we use 975 00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.440 electrical stimulation and stimulate each piece and have a person talk. 976 00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:41.639 And eventually we hit an area where they literally just 977 00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:43.550 can't talk anymore. And we know not to take out 978 00:51:43.570 --> 00:51:46.909 that area. But the point is that we're not to 979 00:51:46.929 --> 00:51:48.489 remove the area in a very delicate way. 980 00:51:48.969 --> 00:51:49.289 Right. 981 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:52.829 Oh my God. 982 00:51:53.150 --> 00:51:58.190 So you're telling me that something as sophisticated as neurosurgery. 983 00:51:58.889 --> 00:51:59.869 Y'all just poking around. 984 00:51:59.909 --> 00:52:00.469 It's really, right. 985 00:52:00.590 --> 00:52:06.750 So you're telling me electricians, electricians are better at. 986 00:52:06.789 --> 00:52:09.239 Finding the electrical connection. 987 00:52:10.139 --> 00:52:14.360 Like no electrician would start poking your walls to figure 988 00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.199 out where the wires are. 989 00:52:16.219 --> 00:52:21.909 Pretty much where we're at. But the amazing thing. is 990 00:52:21.929 --> 00:52:24.590 that the person is awake, their skull is open. We're literally, 991 00:52:24.869 --> 00:52:27.150 you know, inside their brain and they don't feel any 992 00:52:27.210 --> 00:52:27.449 of it. 993 00:52:27.650 --> 00:52:27.909 Right. 994 00:52:28.070 --> 00:52:31.039 The thing that creates all of our pain sensations doesn't 995 00:52:31.059 --> 00:52:34.139 feel anything itself when it's being touched or stimulated or 996 00:52:34.219 --> 00:52:34.840 cut into. 997 00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:35.400 That's deep. 998 00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:36.119 Right. 999 00:52:36.199 --> 00:52:37.920 And it can bleed and be cut into, but you don't, 1000 00:52:37.940 --> 00:52:39.519 you don't feel it, but it, but it's the seat 1001 00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:43.039 of pain itself. So the thing about it with CTE 1002 00:52:43.179 --> 00:52:46.320 and another, you know, symptoms from traumatic brain injury is 1003 00:52:46.389 --> 00:52:49.570 that it's, it's a silent, people are suffering with it 1004 00:52:49.590 --> 00:52:51.840 in silence because you can't see it, right? You can 1005 00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:55.039 see it a little bit with these hyperintensities, we call 1006 00:52:55.059 --> 00:52:58.300 it on MRI, the little white spots that show up 1007 00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.039 over time. But really it's subjective. The person is saying, 1008 00:53:02.099 --> 00:53:04.840 I have a brain fog. I can't concentrate. I can't read.

1009 00:53:04.900 --> 00:53:08.650 Or they start acting impulsively. But you don't feel pain 1010 00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:12.190 itself other than headaches is often people complain of having 1011 00:53:12.210 --> 00:53:15.269 a headache. But that's really the meninges. Like a headache 1012 00:53:15.309 --> 00:53:18.239 is not the brain itself hurting. it's actually like a 1013 00:53:18.300 --> 00:53:22.579 migraine is the surrounding membrane that does have pain sensors 1014 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:24.780 in it. And that's where you actually feel the headache. 1015 00:53:25.530 --> 00:53:27.949 Like when you get a hangover, that's my migraine. 1016 00:53:28.010 --> 00:53:28.809 I mean, I wouldn't know. 1017 00:53:31.230 --> 00:53:34.250 Heather, does the brain not have a capacity for regeneration 1018 00:53:34.289 --> 00:53:36.300 in certain places or in all of it? 1019 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:40.769 It does. I mean, it's amazingly, I mean, it's, It's 1020 00:53:40.809 --> 00:53:43.750 very susceptible to damage, but it is amazingly able to 1021 00:53:44.230 --> 00:53:46.969 kind of heal to an extent. So a lot of 1022 00:53:47.010 --> 00:53:51.250 it is compensatory, right? As long as certain structures are 1023 00:53:51.269 --> 00:53:53.260 in place, if you have damage, you can maybe build 1024 00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:54.260 alternative routes. 1025 00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:54.960 Rewire. 1026 00:53:55.139 --> 00:53:56.900 Rewire. Your brain rewires. 1027 00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:57.500 Rewire. 1028 00:53:57.780 --> 00:54:02.539 But when you start to have these neurodegenerative processes, so 1029 00:54:02.619 --> 00:54:05.300 much of the brain is affected across the board. It 1030 00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:09.039 starts to atrophy. you're losing gray matter. So like I said, 1031 00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:11.340 first you get these white matter tears, but eventually that 1032 00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:14.260 leads to death of the cell body, the gray matter. 1033 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:17.940 And then you don't have the actual structure to support 1034 00:54:18.079 --> 00:54:21.360 the brain function, the cognitive function anymore. So you can 1035 00:54:21.460 --> 00:54:23.460 compensate to an extent. So if you have one area 1036 00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:25.940 of a brain lesion that doesn't spread, right? It's not 1037 00:54:25.980 --> 00:54:30.199 a neurodegenerative disorder. You can create these alternative pathways to 1038 00:54:30.219 --> 00:54:33.300 sort of circumvent that damaged area. But when you start 1039 00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:36.989 having globally damage, there's only so much the brain can 1040 00:54:37.030 --> 00:54:40.289 do to compensate. 1041 00:54:40.389 --> 00:54:42.389 So Heather, I just want to, just to, just to 1042 00:54:43.010 --> 00:54:49.409 establish a baseline here of all sciences, yours is the 1043 00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:54.650 most constricted by what kind of experiments you can do, right? 1044 00:54:54.710 --> 00:54:57.530 I mean, a chemist can just re mix the Petri 1045 00:54:57.570 --> 00:55:00.929 dish or the biologist and then do it at a 1046 00:55:00.969 --> 00:55:05.940 different temperature under different acidity, a different lighting condition, whatever, 1047 00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:08.340 you can't just walk up to people in the street, 1048 00:55:08.539 --> 00:55:12.059 can I play with your brain? You can't do that. 1049 00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:18.679 So how far behind are you? Rather than boast how 1050 00:55:18.739 --> 00:55:23.530 far we've come, how much more remains to be discovered? 1051 00:55:23.889 --> 00:55:26.309 Okay, so I mean, look, there's a lot of work 1052 00:55:26.349 --> 00:55:28.809 we can do. I don't do this research, but there 1053 00:55:28.829 --> 00:55:31.309 are people in the field who are doing animal research, right? 1054 00:55:31.449 --> 00:55:36.610 And there you can do much more controlled experiments in 1055 00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:39.960 animals that you can't do in humans. Part of what 1056 00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:44.099 I have always done is I try to create experiments 1057 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:47.139 that would be in humans that are analogous to what 1058 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:49.820 we're able to do in animals, but we have to 1059 00:55:49.860 --> 00:55:53.159 kind of wait for the right subjects to emerge. So 1060 00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:55.260 let me give you an example. Like one is, for example, 1061 00:55:55.460 --> 00:55:57.219 part of my PhD work was I looked at what, 1062 00:55:57.570 --> 00:55:59.929 what is the part of the brain, the orbital prefrontal cortex, 1063 00:55:59.949 --> 00:56:02.329 what does it do? And so in animal models and 1064 00:56:02.389 --> 00:56:05.679 mice and monkeys, you can lesion that part of the 1065 00:56:05.699 --> 00:56:08.579 brain specifically and then do experiments. You can't go in 1066 00:56:08.619 --> 00:56:11.099 and lesion a human. So what I had to do 1067 00:56:11.139 --> 00:56:15.010 is sort through, this was in London at King's College London, 1068 00:56:15.050 --> 00:56:18.989 the neurosurgery department, sort through patient files of patients who 1069 00:56:19.010 --> 00:56:21.469 have come in who are still alive who have had 1070 00:56:21.489 --> 00:56:23.849 the particular type of brain surgery because it was removal 1071 00:56:23.869 --> 00:56:26.269 of a tumor or because they had damage to that 1072 00:56:26.309 --> 00:56:28.650 part of the brain because of a stroke or an aneurysm, 1073 00:56:28.989 --> 00:56:31.389 where I would find those specific patients that happen to 1074 00:56:31.429 --> 00:56:33.230 have damage to that part of the brain and then 1075 00:56:33.329 --> 00:56:35.909 bring them in for a study. But that takes longer. 1076 00:56:36.289 --> 00:56:38.789 So the thing is we can do these studies, but 1077 00:56:39.110 --> 00:56:41.099 the length of time it takes to gather the patients 1078 00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:43.280 who have naturally gotten damaged to

these parts of the brain, 1079 00:56:43.300 --> 00:56:47.480 let's say, can increase the length of time it takes 1080 00:56:47.539 --> 00:56:49.199 us to make these discoveries. So if I was to 1081 00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:50.980 give you a number, I mean, like, it's very hard 1082 00:56:51.019 --> 00:56:54.679 to say how much longer, you know, it's taking us 1083 00:56:54.860 --> 00:56:57.679 because we don't have control in human studies, but we 1084 00:56:57.860 --> 00:57:01.679 are developing techniques where we can do non-invasive stimulation to 1085 00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:04.909 brain parts, which in effect knock them out temporarily. And 1086 00:57:04.969 --> 00:57:07.889 that's helping us make some advances. So we're getting more 1087 00:57:07.929 --> 00:57:10.309 creative with the kinds of experiments we do in humans. 1088 00:57:10.630 --> 00:57:12.329 So Heather, we got to bring this to a close, 1089 00:57:12.349 --> 00:57:15.050 but before we do, could you tell us how you 1090 00:57:15.110 --> 00:57:18.039 came to know about Leonard Marshall's case because you brought 1091 00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:20.059 him to us for us to create this show. 1092 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:20.920 Yeah. Yeah. 1093 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:23.400 Um, I was, I was, I do a lot of 1094 00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:27.880 work with, um, Alzheimer's patients and people with neurodegenerative disorders 1095 00:57:27.980 --> 00:57:32.059 and as well as with CTE. And, um, I was 1096 00:57:32.119 --> 00:57:36.619 connected with him basically to talk, uh, to him about his, 1097 00:57:37.219 --> 00:57:40.880 the cognitive functioning problems that he's having and see if 1098 00:57:40.940 --> 00:57:46.590 there's any, um, treatments and also to help, you know, 1099 00:57:46.630 --> 00:57:50.530 spread the word about this because it's a major problem 1100 00:57:51.090 --> 00:57:54.829 that I think needs to, that in some ways, you know, 1101 00:57:54.869 --> 00:57:56.449 is not getting the kind of coverage that I think 1102 00:57:56.489 --> 00:57:58.679 it needs. There's a lot of people suffering with this 1103 00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:02.099 and they're doing it behind the scenes. 1104 00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:04.900 So he was- And I think we learned offline. What 1105 00:58:04.920 --> 00:58:06.719 was it? Was it offline, Chuck, where we were talking 1106 00:58:06.739 --> 00:58:10.190 about helmet brain or something or head brain? What's that 1107 00:58:10.289 --> 00:58:14.349 with sled, sled head? Yeah, sled head. A bobsledder is 1108 00:58:14.369 --> 00:58:16.469 where they're, you know, you see the camera. Because they're 1109 00:58:16.989 --> 00:58:20.980 just constantly vibrating. It's constantly vibrating on the ice. So 1110 00:58:21.239 --> 00:58:25.159 this sounds like a broader issue with regard to sports 1111 00:58:25.699 --> 00:58:28.679 where your head gets dinged, right? I mean, obviously it's 1112 00:58:28.699 --> 00:58:29.340 not just football. 1113 00:58:29.739 --> 00:58:32.039 I think, you know, 100 years from now, we're going 1114 00:58:32.059 --> 00:58:34.280 to look back on the way we've played sports and 1115 00:58:34.389 --> 00:58:39.090 how much we disregarded sports. the damage that was tapping 1116 00:58:39.130 --> 00:58:40.489 to the brain. And we're going to think, you know, 1117 00:58:41.070 --> 00:58:42.420 just the way we look back to the 19, I 1118 00:58:42.460 --> 00:58:45.880 don't know, fifties and everybody was smoking, including doctors and, 1119 00:58:45.940 --> 00:58:47.659 you know, saying it was good for you. Like, I 1120 00:58:47.699 --> 00:58:49.920 think we're going to look back on this and look 1121 00:58:49.940 --> 00:58:53.219 at it with similar disdain. Um, there's a lot of 1122 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:55.260 money involved in sports and a lot of people say, well, 1123 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:57.010 they get paid millions of dollars, so I guess they're 1124 00:58:57.050 --> 00:59:02.230 sacrificing their brain as a consequence. But yeah, anyway, I 1125 00:59:02.269 --> 00:59:02.969 think that people should know. 1126 00:59:02.969 --> 00:59:05.889 By that time, all sports will be played by robots 1127 00:59:05.889 --> 00:59:08.809 and all the kids playing video games now will be 1128 00:59:08.809 --> 00:59:13.039 the real athletes who are controlling those robots. And, you know, 1129 00:59:13.239 --> 00:59:15.920 and then there will be a big movement of people 1130 00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:18.800 who are like saying, well, you know, we have to 1131 00:59:18.900 --> 00:59:22.760 care about the robots and their brains, you know, because 1132 00:59:22.780 --> 00:59:26.039 their central processing units are getting damaged in this sport. And, 1133 00:59:26.449 --> 00:59:27.929 Why should they give their life? 1134 00:59:27.969 --> 00:59:34.489 This is Chuck's sci-fi apocalyptic thriller. Yeah, man. 1135 00:59:34.849 --> 00:59:37.030 I do think that the way that we care very 1136 00:59:37.070 --> 00:59:40.090 much about athletes' physical bodies and they have trainers and 1137 00:59:40.110 --> 00:59:42.050 they take care of them and they get massages and whatever, 1138 00:59:42.070 --> 00:59:44.449 we should think about also taking care of the brain 1139 00:59:44.550 --> 00:59:46.670 as well and brain health in the process. 1140 00:59:47.269 --> 00:59:49.510 That's a place we haven't arrived at yet, but it 1141 00:59:49.570 --> 00:59:51.510 is completely where we should be headed. 1142 00:59:51.530 --> 00:59:54.940 In the future, we probably will have way less more 1143 00:59:54.980 --> 00:59:56.380 contact in our sports. 1144 00:59:56.820 --> 00:59:57.159 Mm-hmm. 1145 00:59:57.760 --> 01:00:01.480 And the sort of extreme sports, and you might then 1146 01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:05.760 push what we consider mainline sports like sledding and push 1147 01:00:05.780 --> 01:00:08.500 them into the extreme category and then reduce that because 1148 01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:10.380 of the damage that's potentially taking place. 1149 01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:11.059 Mm-hmm. 1150 01:00:11.510 --> 01:00:14.070 Or maybe just take heading out of soccer as well, right? 1151 01:00:14.269 --> 01:00:17.639 That's on its way. I can tell you maybe in 1152 01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:19.920 30 years' time there will not be heading of a 1153 01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:20.510 football team. 1154 01:00:20.840 --> 01:00:24.699 And maybe in 30 years time in soccer, they'll just 1155 01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:25.699 use their hands. 1156 01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:29.969 Cause what the hell, man? That's what you got them for. 1157 01:00:30.429 --> 01:00:32.510 They're dangling there doing nothing. 1158 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:37.750 Two perfectly good utensils with opposable thumbs. 1159 01:00:38.010 --> 01:00:40.869 And you're like, nah, we can't use those. What would 1160 01:00:40.889 --> 01:00:42.190 we ever use those for? 1161 01:00:42.730 --> 01:00:42.969 Okay. 1162 01:00:43.010 --> 01:00:44.969 Chuck just blew a gasket, which means it's time to 1163 01:00:45.030 --> 01:00:50.889 close this out. Gary, Chuck, good to have you. And Heather, 1164 01:00:50.949 --> 01:00:53.630 it is a delight always to have you enlighten us 1165 01:00:53.829 --> 01:00:55.489 in all of your neurological ways. 1166 01:00:55.510 --> 01:00:56.309 All right. 1167 01:00:56.449 --> 01:00:59.289 This has been StarTalk Sports Edition. As always, I bid 1168 01:00:59.510 --> 01:01:01.010 you to keep looking up.