บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ StarTalk Podcast_ The Right Stuff with Astronaut Scott Kelly and Dr. Chris Mason

00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.099 regarding the book, the right stuff, the movie, you mentioned 80 00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:04.099 the movie. I think I maybe maybe saw it once. 81 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:04.750 Really, they're right. 82 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:08.110 The book was much more significant part of my life, 83 00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:12.539 really what's inspired me. to become a better student and 84 00:04:12.860 --> 00:04:15.110 to go on and fly in the Navy and then 85 00:04:15.169 --> 00:04:18.829 later at NASA. So, yeah, the type of stuff you 86 00:04:18.930 --> 00:04:21.389 saw in the movie and that's related well in the book, 87 00:04:21.829 --> 00:04:24.089 a lot of that stuff is the astronaut selection part, 88 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:25.920 you know, some of the uncomfortableness of it. 89 00:04:26.379 --> 00:04:27.879 And, yeah, we have to go through that. 90 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:33.860 You know, the different, you know, exams you have to 91 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:39.769 go through from, you know, Just a very thorough eye 92 00:04:39.850 --> 00:04:42.209 examination to make sure your vision's good, which in some 93 00:04:42.250 --> 00:04:44.290 ways is a little bit uncomfortable, believe it or not, 94 00:04:44.350 --> 00:04:49.980 all the way through your gastrointestinal system, cardiovascularly, all that stuff. 95 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.459 They test us for claustrophobia. 96 00:04:53.959 --> 00:04:55.079 And how do they do that? 97 00:04:56.019 --> 00:04:57.420 They put you in a rubber bag. 98 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:00.430 You kind of crawl up into a ball, this thick 99 00:05:00.550 --> 00:05:06.540 rubber bag with a... very heavy zipper, they put electrodes 100 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:09.310 on you and push you into a closet and don't 101 00:05:09.350 --> 00:05:10.750 tell you how long you're gonna be there. 102 00:05:11.050 --> 00:05:13.089 So, give you that claustrophobia. 103 00:05:13.370 --> 00:05:16.649 I wanna scream right now. Just listening to that. Just 104 00:05:16.829 --> 00:05:20.649 listening to that, I feel like calling for help for 105 00:05:20.709 --> 00:05:21.740 some reason right now. 106 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:25.480 And they told you that was a test. That just 107 00:05:25.660 --> 00:05:28.060 sounds like a bunch of bullies playing a prank on you. 108 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.279 Yeah, that's after they gave you the wedgies. That would 109 00:05:31.339 --> 00:05:32.620 actually happen there, Scott. 110 00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:35.939 Well, you wouldn't want to have claustrophobia and get into 111 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:41.819 a spacesuit and figure it out when you're doing a spacewalk. 112 00:05:41.870 --> 00:05:45.149 Yeah, I was going to say, you know, when you're 113 00:05:45.170 --> 00:05:47.709 in low Earth orbit, it might be a little late 114 00:05:47.769 --> 00:05:54.029 to figure that out. Hey, guys, guys, can somebody get 115 00:05:54.050 --> 00:05:54.470 me down? 116 00:05:54.490 --> 00:05:59.750 I know several astronauts were previous athletes, like Buzz Aldrin. 117 00:05:59.889 --> 00:06:02.389 I knew he was a track and field athlete. Even 118 00:06:02.529 --> 00:06:05.230 did the pole vault, I think it was. So did 119 00:06:05.250 --> 00:06:07.310 you do any sports when you were in college? 120 00:06:08.410 --> 00:06:11.149 I was a pole vaulter in high school. 121 00:06:11.829 --> 00:06:14.370 Not a very good one. I was the captain of 122 00:06:14.430 --> 00:06:16.750 my swim team. I'm a decent swimmer, but I shouldn't 123 00:06:16.769 --> 00:06:18.810 have been the captain. It's just our team was so bad. 124 00:06:19.029 --> 00:06:21.550 Wait, wait, Scott, you won the pole vault contest because 125 00:06:21.569 --> 00:06:23.149 you ended up in space. 126 00:06:24.029 --> 00:06:26.930 Eventually. You sailed over every height. 127 00:06:28.129 --> 00:06:30.480 Everyone on the team, including my brother, who was also 128 00:06:30.540 --> 00:06:33.149 a pole vaulter, And the reason I sailed over him 129 00:06:33.209 --> 00:06:35.149 is because I went on one of those Hubble missions, 130 00:06:35.589 --> 00:06:37.589 which is much higher than he ever went. 131 00:06:37.889 --> 00:06:39.800 Oh, it's a higher orbit than the space station. 132 00:06:39.939 --> 00:06:43.519 That's right. That's right. About 100 miles or so, I think. 133 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:50.579 Sibling rivalry. Scott, I'm interested because going into space for 134 00:06:50.620 --> 00:06:53.290 a year, and we know, and I'll hold my hand up, 135 00:06:53.579 --> 00:06:59.370 astronauts are elite athletes. You've got amazing... cognitive skills, high IQ, 136 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:01.769 and strength and conditioning that is as good as anything 137 00:07:01.790 --> 00:07:04.709 you find on an NFL field or anywhere else for 138 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:05.290 that matter. 139 00:07:06.870 --> 00:07:07.670 Except for curling. 140 00:07:07.790 --> 00:07:09.910 Well, they're just, Chuck, you've gone to the top of 141 00:07:09.970 --> 00:07:15.769 Mount Olympus there. But we're going to be speaking to Dr. 142 00:07:15.810 --> 00:07:18.350 Mason a little bit later on in this podcast. So, 143 00:07:18.490 --> 00:07:21.009 you know, stick around for that, please, all our listeners. 144 00:07:22.189 --> 00:07:25.209 He said to us that you said when you were 145 00:07:25.230 --> 00:07:30.540 in space, it felt like your bones were melting. And 146 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.139 to back that up, the blood work and the urine 147 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:35.600 samples proved that you were draining calcium. 148 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:37.579 Now, we're all told about. 149 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:40.740 Athletes who can feel and intuitively know their own body. 150 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:43.829 How did you come to that conclusion? 151 00:07:45.290 --> 00:07:46.110 I never said that. 152 00:07:46.689 --> 00:07:47.430 Oh, busted. 153 00:07:47.449 --> 00:07:52.439 That my bones were melting and I...

doubt very much 154 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:54.639 that Dr. Mason said that either. 155 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:55.500 All right. 156 00:07:55.899 --> 00:07:58.379 Certainly, we lose a lot of bone mass in space, 157 00:07:58.420 --> 00:08:00.560 you know, 1% a month if you didn't do anything 158 00:08:00.699 --> 00:08:04.939 to prevent it. But we do. Fortunately, we do a 159 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:08.819 lot of exercise, resistive exercise specifically helps with that. And 160 00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:12.060 I did lose some bone mass. And, you know, that 161 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.720 does show up in your urine samples. 162 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:16.279 Our bodies are really smart. 163 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:23.120 You Once you get to space, your physiology recognizes there's 164 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:25.920 no more gravity, no more need for a skeleton to 165 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:26.459 support it. 166 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:28.360 So it starts just getting rid of that stuff. 167 00:08:29.019 --> 00:08:30.980 So you're en route to just becoming a pile of 168 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:32.899 ectoplasm up there. 169 00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:34.669 Like Gumby. 170 00:08:35.169 --> 00:08:38.110 You're like Gumby, maybe. 171 00:08:39.629 --> 00:08:41.470 So while all of this is going on in your 172 00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:44.409 body and your body's... Is there a point like when 173 00:08:45.450 --> 00:08:49.070 people we speak to who go... on vegan diet, say 174 00:08:49.110 --> 00:08:50.750 it takes a couple of weeks and then they kind 175 00:08:50.769 --> 00:08:53.190 of feel the whole thing working for them. Is it 176 00:08:53.210 --> 00:08:57.149 the same situation for a human body in space where 177 00:08:57.190 --> 00:08:59.149 you go over this bump in the road and after 178 00:08:59.190 --> 00:09:00.750 that you feel comfortable with things? 179 00:09:01.129 --> 00:09:05.009 You know, there's all different levels of adaptation. You know, 180 00:09:05.029 --> 00:09:09.909 on a short-term flight, on a space shuttle, the process 181 00:09:09.950 --> 00:09:13.269 really goes, exists for, you know, it's like a few 182 00:09:13.289 --> 00:09:16.389 days where you might no longer be nauseous and you 183 00:09:16.409 --> 00:09:19.629 kind of feel you still don't feel great, but you 184 00:09:19.710 --> 00:09:22.230 feel good enough to do your job and then you 185 00:09:22.269 --> 00:09:25.269 come home. On a long duration flight, I found the 186 00:09:25.330 --> 00:09:28.610 milestones to be more like, you know, one at about 187 00:09:28.649 --> 00:09:32.320 a month in space and then where you can now 188 00:09:32.429 --> 00:09:36.019 kind of, you know, move around very efficiently. 189 00:09:36.100 --> 00:09:37.720 You can think pretty clearly. 190 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:45.460 You don't feel as, you know, your digestive system and 191 00:09:45.500 --> 00:09:48.730 your you know, your head isn't as swollen as it 192 00:09:48.809 --> 00:09:50.620 is when

you first get up there because, you know, 193 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.879 our cardiovascular system, again, evolved to push blood against gravity. 194 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:57.669 And without that, your head gets swollen. But I would 195 00:09:57.710 --> 00:09:59.370 say over the course of me being there for an 196 00:09:59.429 --> 00:10:03.730 entire year, I always felt better in every way. But 197 00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:07.210 I never felt like I was on earth. I always 198 00:10:07.250 --> 00:10:10.480 felt that my head was a little swollen. My sinuses 199 00:10:10.529 --> 00:10:14.889 were a little congested because of that. I always had, 200 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:17.940 most of the time, a low-grade headache because of the 201 00:10:17.980 --> 00:10:21.669 carbon dioxide. But You know, I think maybe there is 202 00:10:21.710 --> 00:10:24.340 a point out there, some kind of inflection point, where 203 00:10:24.779 --> 00:10:29.000 if you stay in space long enough, you do feel like. 204 00:10:28.820 --> 00:10:30.000 You're on Earth, perhaps. 205 00:10:30.620 --> 00:10:32.980 Or rather, you feel like you're someplace else, and then 206 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:35.539 when you go to Earth, Earth becomes completely weird, right? 207 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:39.889 If you just completely physiologically adapt to where you are, 208 00:10:39.970 --> 00:10:41.850 then Earth becomes the outlier. 209 00:10:42.789 --> 00:10:46.169 Yeah, gravity can give you a pretty good beatdown upon return. 210 00:10:46.289 --> 00:10:54.360 Yeah. Speaking of the change and adaptation, so I read 211 00:10:54.419 --> 00:11:00.340 that when you returned upon inspection, when they got under 212 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.990 the hood to see what was going on with your DNA, 213 00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:09.850 that 7% of your DNA actually saw some change. Now, 214 00:11:11.029 --> 00:11:14.909 I guess subsequently has it returned to its regular state 215 00:11:15.110 --> 00:11:19.629 or not? What happened with that, that 7%? And what 216 00:11:19.669 --> 00:11:23.080 exactly was the change? Did we find out exactly what 217 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:23.789 the change was? 218 00:11:24.129 --> 00:11:26.840 Well, Chuck, we know that it didn't make him regrow hair. 219 00:11:27.080 --> 00:11:28.480 That was a change that did not happen. 220 00:11:28.700 --> 00:11:29.600 Ooh. 221 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:30.600 Ooh. 222 00:11:30.659 --> 00:11:32.200 Which is great. You know why? 223 00:11:32.220 --> 00:11:37.340 Because this is like the perfect hair for space. I 224 00:11:37.399 --> 00:11:41.980 hope to go back someday. But actually, you know, what 225 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:46.830 changed for me was... My DNA, but also RNA and protein. 226 00:11:46.870 --> 00:11:50.250 So what changed was 7% of my gene expression. And 227 00:11:50.289 --> 00:11:52.830 gene expression is whether these things, if you think of 228 00:11:52.850 --> 00:11:57.850 them as a switch, they're turned on or off. And 229 00:11:59.340 --> 00:12:05.480 that expression controls our physiology, how our bodies react to things, 230 00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:06.759 how they behave. 231 00:12:07.100 --> 00:12:09.000 This would be a better question for Chris Mason. 232 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.490 But in my case, 7% of that changed. 233 00:12:12.100 --> 00:12:13.139 Over the course of the year. 234 00:12:13.220 --> 00:12:15.639 Now, granted, you know, all of us are probably changing 235 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:17.700 a little bit all the time, but I think this 236 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:22.259 was more, uh, more, uh, interesting because it, how it, uh, 237 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.519 changed compared to my brother with him on earth, 7% 238 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:29.759 of mine changed, uh, relative to him, I think more so, uh, 239 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:31.740 over the course of that year. 240 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.059 And then what does that, what is the implication? 241 00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:37.240 What are the implications of that, um, for future space 242 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:39.690 travelers and also myself for my. 243 00:12:39.610 --> 00:12:42.710 Health going forward? And, you know, Hopefully I'll never find out. 244 00:12:43.289 --> 00:12:46.269 Did they say that your, your chromosomes actually got longer 245 00:12:46.509 --> 00:12:49.399 and to, and here I am so, so advanced in 246 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:52.179 my medical training, but that actually made you younger. 247 00:12:53.779 --> 00:12:57.019 So, uh, what you're referring to as my telomeres are 248 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:00.759 these like end caps on our chromosomes. And as we age, 249 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:05.019 you know, cells divide, those get shorter and more frayed. 250 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:08.309 So your telomeres are really an indication of your physical 251 00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:11.940 age and, the hypothesis was me being in space, all 252 00:13:11.980 --> 00:13:16.399 this radiation, the microgravity environment, the stress, you know, all 253 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:21.360 these different factors would work together against my chromosomes to 254 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:23.419 shorten them as compared. 255 00:13:23.019 --> 00:13:23.600 To my brother. 256 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:29.320 And surprisingly, we found out that they actually improved. Now, initially, 257 00:13:29.379 --> 00:13:31.809 we thought, well, maybe that's due to the exercise. We 258 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:34.509 do a ton of exercise on board. Maybe the diet, 259 00:13:34.610 --> 00:13:37.389 which is, you know, different than a terrestrial diet. It's 260 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:40.710 more controlled by dieticians. Maybe that was helpful. So that's 261 00:13:40.730 --> 00:13:43.710 what they actually thought at first. But then, I don't know, 262 00:13:43.730 --> 00:13:45.529 it was six months or a year after I got 263 00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:48.960 back from space, we learned that the Japanese had this 264

00:13:49.220 --> 00:13:52.580 experiment on telomeres on the space station at the same 265 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:55.929 time I was there on these small worms. And their 266 00:13:55.990 --> 00:13:58.929 telomeres got better. And I never once saw those guys 267 00:13:58.970 --> 00:14:00.610 working out on the treadmill. 268 00:14:00.169 --> 00:14:01.580 Or the bicycle or anything. 269 00:14:02.580 --> 00:14:05.340 So there's clearly more to this than meets the eye. 270 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:09.960 Wait, Scott, how many dangling variables were between you and Mark? So, 271 00:14:10.100 --> 00:14:12.980 for example, did they make Mark eat the same food 272 00:14:13.120 --> 00:14:16.610 you did? Did he exercise at the same times you did? 273 00:14:17.110 --> 00:14:20.190 So that you have localized the effect of being in 274 00:14:20.250 --> 00:14:22.990 space as the only difference between the two of you? 275 00:14:23.070 --> 00:14:25.049 Or was he partying and drinking and. 276 00:14:27.139 --> 00:14:29.000 We're going with a letter, aren't we? 277 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:37.009 As a scientist, Neil, I think everyone realizes that, including yourself, 278 00:14:37.350 --> 00:14:39.850 clearly that, you know, the way you would normally do 279 00:14:40.309 --> 00:14:43.009 a scientific experiment is to control a lot of these 280 00:14:43.090 --> 00:14:46.289 external factors and variables and focus on, you know, like 281 00:14:46.330 --> 00:14:50.100 the one thing you're trying to investigate. So all things, 282 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.980 you know, are basically equal. We actually talked about maybe 283 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.580 my brother following the same diet, maybe following the same 284 00:14:56.529 --> 00:14:59.289 exercise protocol. But he had his own life. 285 00:14:59.769 --> 00:15:00.669 He traveled. 286 00:15:00.789 --> 00:15:03.500 He had to do work in different parts of the country. 287 00:15:03.509 --> 00:15:09.240 It really wasn't practical. So it's an experiment that involves 288 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:11.360 some interesting information. 289 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:12.200 It's more of a. 290 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:18.500 Longitudinal kind of experiment, comparing me to my brother over 291 00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:20.820 a long period of time and other astronauts and not 292 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:24.490 something where you're looking at A very specific, controlled, very 293 00:15:24.570 --> 00:15:29.509 large sample group as, you know, what you're comparing this, me, 294 00:15:29.769 --> 00:15:33.500 as the, you know, scientific subject to. 295 00:15:33.629 --> 00:15:34.720 Yeah, because if you did, if you were to do 296 00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:37.879 that perfectly, you would lock him into a vessel the 297 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:41.879 size of your space station module for a year as well. 298 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:44.480 I mean, so that there'd be, the only difference is 299 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:46.929 your zero G module. above Earth's atmosphere. 300 00:15:47.090 --> 00:15:51.009 That would be the plastic bag scenario that Scott went 301 00:15:51.049 --> 00:15:55.269 through for claustrophobia. Lock him in the cupboard for a year. Okay, 302 00:15:55.289 --> 00:15:57.149 the one thing we get asked all the time, and 303 00:15:57.210 --> 00:16:00.009 Neil is brilliant with these sort of answers, is what 304 00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:04.059 if we did this sport on this planet, right? And 305 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.919 I think we're talking to one of the few people 306 00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:10.899 who has come as close to anybody as doing sport off-world, 307 00:16:11.299 --> 00:16:15.220 even if it's exercise or two straws and a bead 308 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.799 of water. Um, so it's, what did you think you 309 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:22.799 could achieve in terms of sport whilst you're in space 310 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:23.379 for a year? 311 00:16:24.659 --> 00:16:24.860 Hmm. 312 00:16:26.379 --> 00:16:28.779 Uh, you know, I think you would have to design 313 00:16:29.549 --> 00:16:35.110 a sport specifically for microgravity. It would be hard to translate, 314 00:16:35.490 --> 00:16:40.129 you know, sports that are conducted under gravity, uh, to 315 00:16:40.210 --> 00:16:44.190 microgravity and have them work the same way. Certainly, you know, 316 00:16:44.210 --> 00:16:47.190 we try things. in space for fun. I had a 317 00:16:47.210 --> 00:16:49.190 football up there and one time it took me a 318 00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:51.129 few months, but I was able to throw it from 319 00:16:51.169 --> 00:16:54.549 the front of the space station node two, all the 320 00:16:54.590 --> 00:16:57.909 way into the service module of the Russian segment, which 321 00:16:57.990 --> 00:17:01.950 is probably, I don't know, like maybe several hundred feet away. 322 00:17:02.450 --> 00:17:05.619 And there was about that much space to, to get 323 00:17:05.650 --> 00:17:09.650 it through. It took me months. Um, But as far as, 324 00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:11.890 I don't know, maybe you could have wrestling. That would 325 00:17:11.910 --> 00:17:12.690 be pretty interesting. 326 00:17:12.710 --> 00:17:13.329 Neil, you're in. 327 00:17:13.390 --> 00:17:16.089 Two people wrestling in space. I don't know how you 328 00:17:16.109 --> 00:17:17.250 would pin somebody, though. 329 00:17:17.289 --> 00:17:19.160 Yeah, so I think you're right. You have to sort 330 00:17:19.180 --> 00:17:23.279 of start from scratch and say, what are some zero-G 331 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:28.460 athletic feats that we would– because, you know, faster, higher, stronger, 332 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:32.250 whatever is the Olympic motto, they'd have to even adjust 333 00:17:32.329 --> 00:17:36.210 that– adjust it. Because strength– I don't know, takes on 334 00:17:36.250 --> 00:17:38.670 a different meaning in space because any force will send 335 00:17:38.710 --> 00:17:44.009 something into motion. And so, okay. So

maybe that's a 336 00:17:44.029 --> 00:17:45.809 book I think you should write, Scott. 337 00:17:45.869 --> 00:17:46.789 I'll tell you what, though. 338 00:17:46.930 --> 00:17:51.869 I think the thing that would be competitive would be 339 00:17:52.150 --> 00:17:58.309 how you're able to very precisely maneuver your body around 340 00:17:58.369 --> 00:18:02.210 in zero gravity. Because, you know, over the course, the 341 00:18:02.250 --> 00:18:04.579 longer you're there, the better you get at it and 342 00:18:05.849 --> 00:18:09.630 And that's really a skill to learn. So there could 343 00:18:09.670 --> 00:18:13.640 be certain things like, you know, just being able to, 344 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:17.859 you know, do like a flip in the middle of 345 00:18:17.900 --> 00:18:20.500 the module and see who can do it the longest 346 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:23.519 without actually hitting anything. That would be, you could time 347 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.420 that and that would be a good competition. 348 00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:27.940 Without accidentally hitting the red eject button. 349 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:28.440 Yeah. 350 00:18:28.789 --> 00:18:29.619 Space gymnastics. 351 00:18:29.789 --> 00:18:34.309 Cracking yourself. Space gymnastics because everything they do on the 352 00:18:34.769 --> 00:18:37.569 floor exercises and things, you just do in space and 353 00:18:37.589 --> 00:18:38.890 you don't even have to touch back down. 354 00:18:39.650 --> 00:18:40.130 I like that. 355 00:18:41.289 --> 00:18:44.390 And how about synchronized swimming? If they had some swimming 356 00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:47.059 pool that was just a big blob of water and 357 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.200 you sort of enter the blob of water and then 358 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:52.200 you can have cameras from all directions, that'd be interesting too. 359 00:18:53.660 --> 00:19:00.589 Probably drown. Be a short competition. 360 00:19:00.950 --> 00:19:04.509 We've spoken a lot about the physical version of you. 361 00:19:05.269 --> 00:19:09.390 How about the mental version of you? Because I'm told 362 00:19:09.450 --> 00:19:14.119 that you took a gorilla suit into space. Is that another? 363 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:16.380 I'm being told a whole load of fibs. 364 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:17.220 I did not take a gorilla suit. 365 00:19:17.849 --> 00:19:20.099 Now, my brother sent me a gorilla suit, but I 366 00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:22.099 did not take it. I actually said, why are you 367 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:24.920 sending me a gorilla suit? And he said, well, there's 368 00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:27.119 never been a gorilla suit in space, so I'm sending 369 00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:29.369 you one, and you have no control over it. 370 00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:31.799 So then you've got to take a blurry photo of you, 371 00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:33.660 and then it would be like Bigfoot is in space, 372 00:19:33.859 --> 00:19:37.200 you know? Wouldn't that be cool? 373 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:40.059 These stories are getting lost in translation. 374 00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:45.559 It's strange. Are you talking to the National Enquirer, Gary? 375 00:19:45.900 --> 00:19:49.529 I cannot divulge my sources. You know the rules on this, Chuck. 376 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.460 So guys, we got to take this break. But Scott 377 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:56.859 Kelly's book is A Year in Space, A Lifetime of Discovery. 378 00:19:57.319 --> 00:19:59.720 Definitely check it out. And when we come back, we're 379 00:19:59.740 --> 00:20:03.410 going to introduce Christopher Mason. He's the medical doctor who 380 00:20:03.450 --> 00:20:07.009 conducted the experiments on Scott while he was in space 381 00:20:07.250 --> 00:20:07.650 for a year. 382 00:20:08.660 --> 00:20:09.380 And it's his. 383 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.839 Test that gives us this glimpse into the effect of 384 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.920 human spaceflight on human genetics. 385 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:19.470 So stay with us. We're back. 386 00:20:19.549 --> 00:20:25.849 StarTalk Sports Edition. Building the right stuff. We just came 387 00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:28.430 out of a segment with one of the Kelly twins 388 00:20:28.549 --> 00:20:30.950 who's been in space for a year. And we found 389 00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:34.470 out that a lot of medical experiments were conducted trying 390 00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:38.410 to find out how his body compared with his twin's. Mark, 391 00:20:38.430 --> 00:20:40.690 who he left here on Earth. And we've got right 392 00:20:40.750 --> 00:20:44.130 now the doctor who analyzed him, Dr. 393 00:20:44.299 --> 00:20:46.680 Christopher Mason. Chris, welcome to StarTalk. 394 00:20:47.299 --> 00:20:48.740 It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. 395 00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:49.559 Yeah, let me. 396 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.700 Get your title straight here. Associate Professor and Director, the 397 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.200 World Quant Initiative for Quantitative Prediction. 398 00:20:57.220 --> 00:20:57.900 Did I get that right? 399 00:20:58.319 --> 00:20:58.700 That's right. 400 00:20:58.720 --> 00:20:59.140 It's all there. 401 00:20:59.259 --> 00:21:00.559 Yep, yep. 402 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:03.460 And you specialize in physiology and biophysics, one of my 403 00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:06.019 favorite fields. If I were not an astrophysicist, I'd be 404 00:21:06.059 --> 00:21:09.750 a biophysicist. So I'm totally... with you on that. And 405 00:21:09.849 --> 00:21:12.769 what is the Phile Family Brain and Mind Institute? 406 00:21:12.970 --> 00:21:13.349 What is that? 407 00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:17.230 Basically looking at cognitive traits in general for when you 408 00:21:17.259 --> 00:21:19.599 do large-scale studies, including like with astronauts, but then also 409 00:21:19.940 --> 00:21:21.680 looking for genes that are responsible for how the brain 410 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:23.259 develops or responds to stress. 411 00:21:23.920 -->

00:21:24.480 Okay, cool. 412 00:21:24.500 --> 00:21:25.680 Diseases that run in families, yeah. 413 00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:30.980 Okay, very interesting. And also the Institute for Computational Biomedicine 414 00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:35.309 at the Weill Cornell Hospital? 415 00:21:35.349 --> 00:21:36.849 Medicine. 416 00:21:36.890 --> 00:21:37.450 Medicine, okay. 417 00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:38.430 Excellent. 418 00:21:38.809 --> 00:21:40.970 You're the right guy for this. We have to let 419 00:21:40.990 --> 00:21:45.569 people know that you came 15 minutes late to this 420 00:21:45.650 --> 00:21:48.690 interview because you were like talking to the CDC and 421 00:21:48.809 --> 00:21:52.039 there's no excuse. Who raised you? 422 00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:54.420 All right. We're your manners here. 423 00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:58.680 Just a few mutated viruses floating around the population. 424 00:21:58.720 --> 00:22:00.380 A few mutated COVID viruses. 425 00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:03.500 That's not an excuse. All right. 426 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:09.680 So you're... the words associated with your profession. I got 427 00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:18.190 one here, epitranscriptome, metagenome, transcriptome, epigenome. What is all that? 428 00:22:18.349 --> 00:22:22.809 By Aquadulu Alpha Disco Psycho Beta. 429 00:22:24.009 --> 00:22:25.930 That was an old-timer joke right there, Chuck. 430 00:22:26.509 --> 00:22:30.250 Oh, man. Just got to love some Parliament Funkadelic. Parliament Funkadelic. 431 00:22:30.849 --> 00:22:32.299 So, Chris, what is all that? 432 00:22:33.190 --> 00:22:35.970 I'm happy to clarify. So it is every layer of 433 00:22:36.069 --> 00:22:39.309 biology being studied sort of in its totality. So you 434 00:22:39.329 --> 00:22:42.470 think about, you probably, everyone probably remembers DNA and RNA 435 00:22:42.490 --> 00:22:44.650 and protein, kind of this idea of the central dogma 436 00:22:44.829 --> 00:22:47.349 of molecular biology, what happens in your cells and how 437 00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:49.390 do you go from, you know, one cell when you're 438 00:22:49.410 --> 00:22:51.829 an embryo, everyone here started as one cell, or at 439 00:22:51.869 --> 00:22:53.970 least you should have, if you didn't, please tell me later, 440 00:22:53.990 --> 00:22:55.890 we should do some experiments on you, but you should 441 00:22:55.910 --> 00:22:57.509 have been one cell when you started and all the 442 00:22:57.529 --> 00:22:59.710 instructions are there to become all the other cells in 443 00:22:59.730 --> 00:23:01.390 your body, which is one of the most beautiful things 444 00:23:01.430 --> 00:23:04.200 of genetics. But to make that happen, you need to 445 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:06.680 control the DNA, the RNA, the protein at every stage 446 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:09.200 of development, and also when you go to space, for example. 447 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.099 So the ohms, the genome is the DNA, the transcriptome 448 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:14.519 is the RNA, the proteome is the proteins, and all 449 00:23:14.539 --> 00:23:17.420 the ohms in between are the totality of studying how 450 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:18.829 those molecules interact in the body. 451 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:23.750 Okay, but the epigenome, it's something that happens later, correct? 452 00:23:23.789 --> 00:23:26.990 It's not something that you're born with? What's going on there? 453 00:23:27.529 --> 00:23:29.809 The epi is Greek for on top of, so you 454 00:23:29.829 --> 00:23:32.430 still have your genome, your four letters of the genetic code, 455 00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:34.440 the A, C, Gs, and Ts that make sort of 456 00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:37.039 the recipe of how you make all your cells. You know, 457 00:23:37.059 --> 00:23:39.799 it's only a four letter alphabet that comprises the entire 458 00:23:39.819 --> 00:23:40.819 genetic code for. 459 00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:41.619 All of life activities. 460 00:23:41.980 --> 00:23:44.119 But then on top of that, their epigenome right on 461 00:23:44.140 --> 00:23:47.160 top of that are small chemical tweaks that change how 462 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.829 and when and where something gets used. And so if 463 00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:51.690 you can package DNA and like make it so it's 464 00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:54.529 inaccessible and turn things off, or you can slightly sprinkle 465 00:23:54.609 --> 00:23:57.150 kind of like snow on these epigenetic marks that turn 466 00:23:57.170 --> 00:23:57.970 them on and turn them off. 467 00:23:58.509 --> 00:24:04.190 So these epigenetic marks there, is it true or do 468 00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:09.650 you know, or has enough been done to study if 469 00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:15.210 indeed trauma over a period of time leads to a 470 00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:20.259 change in genetics down the line? So for instance, let's 471 00:24:20.299 --> 00:24:27.569 just say I'm, a survivor of, you know, homelessness, right? 472 00:24:27.630 --> 00:24:31.259 When I'm a little kid and I go through this 473 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:37.559 terrible trauma and then I give birth to somebody, or 474 00:24:37.579 --> 00:24:41.930 better yet, my mom goes homeless while she's carrying me. 475 00:24:42.789 --> 00:24:46.559 All right. So take those two scenarios. One, my mom 476 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:51.799 is homeless, suffers that trauma. And then two, I am homeless, 477 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:55.000 suffering the trauma. So one, I'm fathering a child. One, 478 00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:57.930 I'm giving birth to a child. Will it have indeed 479 00:24:58.430 --> 00:24:58.890 an effect? 480 00:24:59.529 --> 00:25:04.710 An epigenetic, a transgenerational effect. So this is a big question. 481 00:25:05.170 --> 00:25:07.630 It's hotly debated in the field of genetics and epigenetics. 482 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:11.109 We know In mice, the answer is definitely yes. And 483 00:25:11.170 --> 00:25:13.859 in worms, the answer is definitely yes. We can see

484 00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:18.059 evidence of multi-generational impacts where the genetic code is the same. 485 00:25:18.500 --> 00:25:20.480 It's what's called an isogenic line. It's like a mouse 486 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:22.859 line that is, they're all the same genetic background. There's 487 00:25:22.900 --> 00:25:25.660 no change in the genetics. It's only the epigenetics. And 488 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:28.109 you can see it. You can see those small chemical 489 00:25:28.150 --> 00:25:31.769 tweaks in mice where essentially if you've been lean, you 490 00:25:31.809 --> 00:25:33.490 might have a better chance of being lean as a 491 00:25:33.529 --> 00:25:36.150 mouse later in generations or obese as well. You can 492 00:25:36.190 --> 00:25:36.609 switch it up. 493 00:25:37.220 --> 00:25:37.880 And in C. 494 00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:39.900 Elegans, there's even a case where a work by Odedra 495 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:43.039 Chavez showed worms that have an antiviral response can pass 496 00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:45.670 on for up to three generations, but then it slowly 497 00:25:45.730 --> 00:25:49.369 fades away. So we know it's possible biologically, but in humans, 498 00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:52.309 it's hotly debated. The best example is that in World 499 00:25:52.329 --> 00:25:55.109 War II, a lot of the mothers that were famished 500 00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:57.250 because of a lot of restrictions, because they didn't have 501 00:25:57.269 --> 00:26:00.140 enough food, there were a lot of downstream health effects 502 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:01.200 negative because of that. 503 00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:02.640 And so there's. 504 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.900 Epidemiological evidence, but it's hard to do the same experiment 505 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.430 in humans that you do with with mice, you can't 506 00:26:07.509 --> 00:26:09.630 force humans to have children with who you want to. 507 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:11.529 I mean, you can kind of do with an app 508 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:16.349 these days, but you can't do it in a controlled fashion. 509 00:26:16.369 --> 00:26:19.019 The old Tinder control group. 510 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:24.299 You can kind of get closer, but you still can't. 511 00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:26.579 So one thing you just blew past, and I just 512 00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:28.740 want to make sure we pause and reflect on that 513 00:26:28.779 --> 00:26:34.329 amazing fact, that in the world of experimental physiology, There 514 00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:38.259 are catalogs where you can order up any number of 515 00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:39.960 identical mice. 516 00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:40.779 Oh, yeah. 517 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:44.359 That someone else had experimented on in some other country 518 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:48.150 at another time that found some effect. So you can 519 00:26:48.309 --> 00:26:50.910 get that strain of mice and it's identical DNA to 520 00:26:50.950 --> 00:26:52.450 that other mouse so that now you can look for 521 00:26:52.490 --> 00:26:54.299 the sole variable to change. 522 00:26:54.619 --> 00:26:58.680 Are you saying that they... They keep that line, that 523 00:26:58.880 --> 00:26:59.779 lineage going? 524 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:05.480 That's why, he just blew by it like everybody knows this. Okay, 525 00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:12.609 so it is the ideal experimental lab animal. Yeah, so 526 00:27:12.630 --> 00:27:14.009 did I get it right? Did I get that right, Chris? 527 00:27:14.329 --> 00:27:16.430 That's spot on. And you can get ones with specific mutations, 528 00:27:16.549 --> 00:27:19.410 one that age faster, like progeria, or ones that have 529 00:27:19.809 --> 00:27:23.569 a higher propensity for diabetes or obesity or cancer. You 530 00:27:23.589 --> 00:27:25.470 can make almost any kind of mouse you want these days. 531 00:27:25.670 --> 00:27:27.089 So now how do you guys do this? Do you 532 00:27:27.130 --> 00:27:33.529 have like a little mouse brothel? Chuck! What are you Chuck? 533 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.119 That's a bunch of mouse pimps. What is going on? 534 00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:38.440 What is happening? 535 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:45.660 Chuck, behave. But what it does is makes Scott Kelly 536 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:49.619 going to space with his genetically identical twin brother on 537 00:27:49.759 --> 00:27:51.460 Earth even more fantastic. 538 00:27:51.990 --> 00:27:55.240 That's why Dr. Mason was the ideal person to study 539 00:27:55.299 --> 00:27:55.700 this stuff. 540 00:27:55.980 --> 00:27:56.420 Thank you. 541 00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:58.759 So here we have, okay, so we don't have whole 542 00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:03.339 colonies of identical Mark Kellys, but we had two, all right, 543 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:08.200 brought to you by their mothers, their mother. So what 544 00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:11.039 were you looking for specifically? Did you know what questions 545 00:28:11.059 --> 00:28:13.789 you wanted to answer before it all began, or were 546 00:28:14.009 --> 00:28:17.670 you just going to sort of do a scatter experiment 547 00:28:17.690 --> 00:28:18.640 and see whatever shows up? 548 00:28:19.549 --> 00:28:21.849 We had some hypotheses going in, but for the most part, 549 00:28:22.210 --> 00:28:24.839 we weren't sure. And NASA wasn't sure. Nobody was sure. 550 00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.720 What would be the facet of biology that would change 551 00:28:28.740 --> 00:28:29.039 the most? 552 00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:29.740 Is it the DNA? 553 00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:32.619 Is it the RNA? Is the protein? Is the microbiome, 554 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.470 the microorganisms in your body? There's iron retinal damage that's 555 00:28:36.490 --> 00:28:38.930 been studied before. But we had no idea. So I 556 00:28:38.970 --> 00:28:40.410 think the best thing to do when you don't know 557 00:28:40.430 --> 00:28:43.309 where to look is to look everywhere you possibly can. 558 00:28:43.809 --> 00:28:46.769 So in

this case, we basically took the whole kitchen 559 00:28:46.809 --> 00:28:50.630 sink of molecular biology and and biophysics and examined everything 560 00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:52.470 we could about everything that was going in their body 561 00:28:52.490 --> 00:28:55.000 and out of their body and some parts on their 562 00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:58.460 body as well, like the microbiome. And so we sequenced 563 00:28:58.480 --> 00:29:01.099 their genome, the genome of what was in their stool. 564 00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:03.539 So we got some space poop and also some space 565 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.450 skin samples to see what bacteria were changing and viruses. 566 00:29:06.470 --> 00:29:09.869 Because there's often herpes gets reactivated in a lot of astronauts, 567 00:29:09.910 --> 00:29:12.990 and about 40% of them, the immune system is a 568 00:29:13.009 --> 00:29:14.410 bit suppressed, and so herpes comes back. 569 00:29:14.450 --> 00:29:15.369 Reactivated. 570 00:29:15.390 --> 00:29:16.150 That means they had it. 571 00:29:16.900 --> 00:29:21.319 Already yeah and wait a minute are we talking space 572 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.160 herpes here are we actually talking. 573 00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:27.839 Space i know it's early in the day but we're 574 00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:32.359 already there this interview. 575 00:29:30.710 --> 00:29:36.130 Just began dude okay but wait a minute just you 576 00:29:36.230 --> 00:29:38.259 again you just blew by something i just got to 577 00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:41.279 pause you for a moment. So you not only concern 578 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:44.990 yourself with the health and well-being of Scott Kelly, you 579 00:29:45.029 --> 00:29:48.430 also concerned yourself with the health and well-being of the 580 00:29:48.650 --> 00:29:52.130 bacterial stowaways that are in his gut and are on 581 00:29:52.170 --> 00:29:52.569 his skin. 582 00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:54.359 Yeah. Yeah. 583 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:57.859 And exactly. I mean, basically, because biology is driven by 584 00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:01.059 human cells and microbial cells to be a good geneticist, 585 00:30:01.099 --> 00:30:02.720 you have to look at all kingdoms of life for 586 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:03.420 every patient. 587 00:30:04.309 --> 00:30:06.910 So now, oh, man, that makes for. OK, first of all. 588 00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:09.640 How do you handle all this data? I mean, seriously, 589 00:30:09.859 --> 00:30:12.809 just this one person in space, the tranche of data 590 00:30:12.829 --> 00:30:16.109 that comes back to you has got to be overwhelming. 591 00:30:16.190 --> 00:30:19.490 It's got to be huge, a tidal wave of just 592 00:30:19.809 --> 00:30:23.109 bits and bytes. And then you start talking about the 593 00:30:23.190 --> 00:30:27.829 microbial aspect of this. You're looking at a whole other 594 00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:33.819 universe inside of a human being that you're quantifying, measuring 595 00:30:34.059 --> 00:30:36.799 at the same time. How do you even do that? 596 00:30:37.740 --> 00:30:39.880 Well, lots of sequencers. So, I mean, a lot of 597 00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:42.759 it's petabytes of data. It is, I mean, we have 598 00:30:42.779 --> 00:30:47.049 a laboratory, most laboratories these days, mine included, it's biology, 599 00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:49.990 it's genetics, but about 65, 70% of it is a 600 00:30:50.009 --> 00:30:53.289 dry lab. So it's all computational. There's people who just 601 00:30:53.309 --> 00:30:55.730 do programming, just do informatics. The other third of it 602 00:30:55.789 --> 00:30:57.470 is more the wet lab. And so the lab becomes 603 00:30:57.509 --> 00:30:59.299 kind of half wet, half dry, like a humidor lab. 604 00:30:59.910 --> 00:31:02.049 or like an armpit, it depends on what day it 605 00:31:02.089 --> 00:31:03.789 feels like it is, but a little bit half wet, 606 00:31:03.809 --> 00:31:04.150 half dry. 607 00:31:04.190 --> 00:31:05.170 So it has to be- I did not need to 608 00:31:05.190 --> 00:31:09.059 hear that about an armpit. Sorry. Oh wait, one other thing. 609 00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:10.539 I just got to make sure we're on the same page. 610 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:14.500 You just went right through petabyte. So that's the next 611 00:31:14.619 --> 00:31:18.779 metric group of a thousand that follows gigabyte. So we 612 00:31:18.859 --> 00:31:23.160 have- Terabyte, terabyte. I'm sorry, terabyte. So gigabyte, terabyte, and 613 00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:25.599 then petabyte. So thank you. So this is way more 614 00:31:25.619 --> 00:31:28.299 data than even you ever be storing on your computer. 615 00:31:28.910 --> 00:31:29.289 Right. 616 00:31:29.309 --> 00:31:33.039 So Chris, Chris, how are you reacting to data in 617 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:35.650 real time? Or is it a case of we'll deal 618 00:31:35.670 --> 00:31:38.700 with that when you get back? Can, I mean, as 619 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:41.240 there might, I mean, I'm getting my facts so wrong 620 00:31:41.299 --> 00:31:43.740 on this show. It's actually, I'm going to break records. 621 00:31:43.799 --> 00:31:44.160 I'm sure. 622 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:48.500 Um, is there a mini sequencer on the international space 623 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:50.519 station or have I dreamt that as well? 624 00:31:50.539 --> 00:31:51.319 There is, there is. 625 00:31:51.380 --> 00:31:53.640 So a lot of that, when we sequence all the molecules, 626 00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:55.240 the DNA and the RNA, and you can even track 627 00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:58.500 these proteins with the, with the sequencers too. Normally these 628 00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:01.599 really big machines, these giant machines made by like Illumina 629 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:03.259 or PacBio are some of the bigger companies in the 630 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:06.269 space and their machines are big. But there's smaller ones 631 00:32:06.309 --> 00:32:08.289 made by a company called Oxford Nanopore out of the 632 00:32:08.390 -->

00:32:10.930 UK that makes their just literally the size of something 633 00:32:10.950 --> 00:32:12.910 you'd say half the size of your phone or, you know, 634 00:32:12.950 --> 00:32:15.269 even the size of your phone. They are, and you 635 00:32:15.309 --> 00:32:17.849 can do sequencing in space. We demonstrated this with Kate Rubins, 636 00:32:17.869 --> 00:32:19.390 who's up in the space station right now. And I 637 00:32:19.390 --> 00:32:22.190 was just emailing with her yesterday. She has the small, 638 00:32:22.210 --> 00:32:23.490 she did it for the first time in 2016 and 639 00:32:23.509 --> 00:32:26.529 now it is a, standard flight hardware. You can sequence 640 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:27.890 anything you want right up in space. 641 00:32:28.210 --> 00:32:33.569 Oh, my God. That's so Gattaca, dude. That is so Gattaca. 642 00:32:34.089 --> 00:32:34.849 It's happening in real time. 643 00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:37.750 So you could kiss someone, quickly swab their mouth, and 644 00:32:37.769 --> 00:32:39.170 then sequence it and say, do I want to date 645 00:32:39.190 --> 00:32:42.170 this person anymore? It's like 23andMe and Tinder coming together. 646 00:32:42.190 --> 00:32:46.599 It's finally happening. 647 00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:50.619 Gattaca was a movie reference for those who are... younger 648 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:50.920 than 40. 649 00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:55.089 And by the way, if you haven't seen Gattaca, get 650 00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:59.230 a life. It's an important film. It's a great film. 651 00:32:59.789 --> 00:33:01.829 And in fact, the letters in the title of the 652 00:33:01.869 --> 00:33:05.809 movie are your amino acid letters. 653 00:33:05.869 --> 00:33:09.630 So can I just ask about this microbial? Because I'm just, 654 00:33:10.190 --> 00:33:12.509 when you think about the human gut and the fact 655 00:33:12.549 --> 00:33:16.670 that most of us, I mean, most of our insides 656 00:33:16.829 --> 00:33:20.950 is not us. Right? If you think about it, most 657 00:33:20.990 --> 00:33:23.960 of our insides is not us. So did you find 658 00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:30.559 anything that might either enhance our ability for long-term space 659 00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:35.799 travel or detract from our ability for long-term space travel? 660 00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:38.180 Well, that's what I was thinking of Gary's question. What 661 00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:40.819 were you monitoring in real time? Like if you knew 662 00:33:41.299 --> 00:33:44.710 Scott Kelly was like dying from something, do you say, oh, 663 00:33:44.710 --> 00:33:45.950 we're not going to tell him we need the data? 664 00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:50.720 Say just take this don't ask why just don't ask 665 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.039 why we can see because a lot of the biochemistry 666 00:33:55.099 --> 00:33:58.089 the microbes contributes to our own biology and sort of 667 00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:01.009 vitamin levels for example vitamin b3 and b6 a lot 668 00:34:01.029 --> 00:34:02.470 of this made by the microbes in your gut so 669 00:34:02.509 --> 00:34:04.650 you can see is the composition changing in a way 670 00:34:04.690 --> 00:34:07.470 that's negative but also some of the microbes make something 671 00:34:07.490 --> 00:34:10.969 called the arachidonic acid which has some radio protective capabilities 672 00:34:10.989 --> 00:34:13.280 as well so there's some ongoing questions of Could you 673 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.610 protect astronauts or at least give them good nutrition, but 674 00:34:15.829 --> 00:34:17.730 maybe give them even a little bit of radio protection, 675 00:34:18.429 --> 00:34:21.530 both inside and out, is ongoing research at NASA and 676 00:34:21.570 --> 00:34:22.150 in our lab. 677 00:34:22.530 --> 00:34:26.340 When you say radio protection, you mean radiation from space, right? 678 00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:26.760 Yeah. 679 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:29.219 Well, galactic cosmic rays will still kind of blow right 680 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:31.260 through you. But if you think about lower radiation or 681 00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:33.800 sort of secondary radiation, it might help you with that. 682 00:34:34.179 --> 00:34:36.789 Just clarifying that. Hey, so let me ask you this, Neil. 683 00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:41.579 How do you deal with, like, you know, the... barrage 684 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:46.139 of radiation that you will experience uh once you are 685 00:34:46.619 --> 00:34:49.360 you know you're there's no magnetic field there's no what. 686 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:51.719 Do you do the urge to try to find a 687 00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:54.960 biological solution to this i think will end up futile 688 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:59.059 relative to what engineers can design and so it doesn't 689 00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:01.880 take much thickness of water for example yeah to completely 690 00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:04.010 shield you from most of what's damaging from the sun 691 00:35:04.389 --> 00:35:10.210 So you can imagine enveloping the spacecraft. It's just a membrane, right? Yeah, 692 00:35:10.230 --> 00:35:12.130 some kind of fluid membrane. And that could be some 693 00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:14.159 of the recycled water that you use. So I'm not 694 00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:16.400 worried about that. Everyone says, oh, what about the radiation? 695 00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:18.860 We've got clever engineers. That's the least of my worries. 696 00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:20.539 Okay. That makes sense. 697 00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:24.860 So Chris, what was the most interesting set of results 698 00:35:24.889 --> 00:35:28.010 you got? Maybe the most disturbing, but the same breadth. 699 00:35:28.489 --> 00:35:32.489 And the lessons we've actually picked up from Scott's year 700 00:35:32.550 --> 00:35:33.010 in space. 701 00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:36.429 And where are you hiding the Andromeda string? 702 00:35:38.210 --> 00:35:39.110 It's in the freezer. 703 00:35:39.230 --> 00:35:39.949 Oh, wait, no. 704

00:35:40.070 --> 00:35:41.679 Another movie. 705 00:35:41.929 --> 00:35:43.940 Now you've got to be over 50 to know that movie. 706 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:44.539 That's right. 707 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:48.619 So I think it was really surprising to see actually 708 00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:51.579 how plastic the body was. Many, many things changed that 709 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:54.320 were stress responses in flight. And even when he landed, 710 00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:56.920 his whole body broke out into a rash and his 711 00:35:57.000 --> 00:35:59.300 ankles swelled up to the size of basketballs. But it 712 00:35:59.340 --> 00:36:00.860 went back to normal. So a lot of the body 713 00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:03.760 did return to normal. But we did see increased damage 714 00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:05.519 to his DNA. So we know he did get radiated. 715 00:36:05.539 --> 00:36:07.699 So it's something to keep an eye on. Telomeres got 716 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:09.690 a little bit longer, we could see, which was surprising. 717 00:36:10.190 --> 00:36:11.949 And one other thing that was really surprising is we 718 00:36:11.969 --> 00:36:14.730 could see his immune system. We could see which bacteria 719 00:36:14.849 --> 00:36:17.250 it was actually engaging with because we've also sequenced the 720 00:36:17.289 --> 00:36:17.710 walls of. 721 00:36:17.670 --> 00:36:18.389 The space station. 722 00:36:18.409 --> 00:36:21.389 So we can see the bacteria that his body's engaging 723 00:36:21.409 --> 00:36:23.869 with and the immune cells. You can actually see the 724 00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.889 T cells in his body becoming more active towards those 725 00:36:26.929 --> 00:36:29.010 specific microbes. That was kind of a really interesting result. 726 00:36:29.090 --> 00:36:33.739 Okay, so it means you could not, upfront disentangle the 727 00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:37.539 effects of zero G versus a slightly lower pressurized environment 728 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:41.179 versus the rate, the rated of exposure that he's getting. 729 00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:43.099 All of those are happening together. Cause when I think 730 00:36:43.159 --> 00:36:45.840 of microbes, do they really care how much gravity there is? 731 00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:49.099 Like they live in a whole other world where sort 732 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:53.030 of the, you know, uh, other forces dominate what role 733 00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:56.489 gravity would play. So it sounds like most of what 734 00:36:56.510 --> 00:36:59.389 you're finding has nothing to do with zero G. Yeah, 735 00:36:59.510 --> 00:37:01.130 we think it's a lot of it's the stress on 736 00:37:01.150 --> 00:37:04.309 the body. Sometimes you get local hypoxia just because there's 737 00:37:04.329 --> 00:37:06.329 small clouds of CO2 because air doesn't move the. 738 00:37:06.289 --> 00:37:08.030 Same way in space as it does here on Earth. 739 00:37:08.050 --> 00:37:09.429 It's actually the clouds can stay a little bit in 740 00:37:09.449 --> 00:37:11.199 front of your face. You can see some of that 741 00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:13.340 in the blood work even. So we think you see that, 742 00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:15.480 you see the, you know, essentially the radiation, the stress 743 00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:15.940 of the flight. 744 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:17.659 So you're not going to carry a fan with you 745 00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:18.400 wherever you go. 746 00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:19.920 There's a lot of fans in the space station to 747 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:21.619 make sure the air moves. 748 00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.739 So Scott's in space for a year. That's not the record, 749 00:37:25.800 --> 00:37:26.019 is it? 750 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:28.960 No, the Russians have us beat, like with many things. 751 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:30.159 Okay. 752 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.079 That's why it's called a space race. 753 00:37:32.119 --> 00:37:34.500 Well, that's because they punished somebody to put them up there. 754 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:39.349 No, what happened was, the Russians just beat us in 755 00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:44.730 everything in space. First satellite, first non-human animal, first human, 756 00:37:44.769 --> 00:37:48.059 first woman, first black person. They had everything. And then 757 00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:49.960 we landed on the moon. We say, we win. 758 00:37:50.059 --> 00:37:56.989 So having said that, We will need to do experiments, 759 00:37:57.590 --> 00:38:00.050 as you did with Scott, for even longer periods of 760 00:38:00.130 --> 00:38:02.730 time with possibly even more sophistication. 761 00:38:03.269 --> 00:38:03.929 Where are we? 762 00:38:04.429 --> 00:38:06.630 Not in terms of the length of time, possibly, because, 763 00:38:06.750 --> 00:38:09.050 what is it, nine months to get to Mars, the projection? 764 00:38:09.570 --> 00:38:10.760 Yeah, 67 months, yeah. 765 00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:13.739 Yeah, I mean, what sort of tests can you conduct? 766 00:38:14.059 --> 00:38:17.619 What sort of time can a human exist in space 767 00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:20.980 at this particular point in our technological evolution? 768 00:38:22.150 --> 00:38:24.289 There are missions planned now for doing 18 months, and 769 00:38:24.309 --> 00:38:26.449 there's going to be a barrage of six and 12-month 770 00:38:26.489 --> 00:38:29.030 additional missions to follow up on the twin study. So 771 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:31.159 by the time we send people to Mars, if you 772 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:34.840 ask NASA, it's 2035. If you ask Elon Musk, it's 773 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:35.219 2026 or something. 774 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:39.820 If you ask me, it's never. So don't ask me. No, 775 00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:41.260 you don't think we're going to go? 776 00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:45.469 That's a whole other thing. Don't get me started. Actually, 777 00:38:45.489 --> 00:38:47.690 you wrote a whole book on thinking about humans and 778 00:38:47.710 --> 00:38:49.750 the

future the next 500 years. Why don't we take 779 00:38:49.789 --> 00:38:52.929 a break and we'll come back And just explore where 780 00:38:52.969 --> 00:38:55.610 that book goes and why and what you found and 781 00:38:55.659 --> 00:38:57.820 what your insights are as a medical professional. 782 00:38:57.940 --> 00:38:59.199 We'll be right back on StarTalk. 783 00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:05.519 We're back. StarTalk Sports Edition. We led off with Scott Kelly, 784 00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:08.019 one of the twins who went into space and got 785 00:39:08.099 --> 00:39:13.400 studied by our current guest. We've got Dr. Mason here, 786 00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:17.650 who's an expert on the human genome and the human 787 00:39:17.710 --> 00:39:21.309 physiology and biophysics. And he's the right guy. in the 788 00:39:21.349 --> 00:39:24.840 right place, doing the right thing. So again, thanks for 789 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:29.309 being on our show. So let me ask you, did, what, 790 00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:32.369 anything we learned that we can apply to the rest 791 00:39:32.409 --> 00:39:35.550 of us, even if we're not going into space from 792 00:39:35.590 --> 00:39:40.219 what you studied with Mark Kelly's physiology? Yeah, I think 793 00:39:40.409 --> 00:39:43.079 because we studied- And let me be specific. Anything we 794 00:39:43.099 --> 00:39:45.579 can know about pandemics or anything? I got to sort 795 00:39:45.619 --> 00:39:46.980 of throw that in the mix. 796 00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:47.500 Viruses? Viruses. 797 00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:51.000 Yeah, their physiology or any response to stress, for example. 798 00:39:51.019 --> 00:39:53.760 So what's amazing is we, about a year ago, you know, 799 00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:56.210 we started getting a lot of samples from the hospital, 800 00:39:56.630 --> 00:39:59.409 New York Presbyterian, the COVID-19 patients coming in. We started 801 00:39:59.469 --> 00:40:02.989 sequencing them, applying some of the exact same molecular technologies 802 00:40:03.010 --> 00:40:04.969 that we did to the Kelly twins and other astronauts. 803 00:40:05.489 --> 00:40:07.239 And we could actually see, for example, some things that 804 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:10.380 look just like, that look like the stress of landing 805 00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:14.619 back from space, like interleukin-6 is basically a cytokine, an 806 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:18.050 inflammatory signaling molecule, that really spiked up when he landed. 807 00:40:18.110 --> 00:40:19.429 So when he landed back on earth, it looked like 808 00:40:19.449 --> 00:40:22.349 his body basically was saying, oh crap, you know, I'm 809 00:40:22.409 --> 00:40:24.030 not breaking on rashes. I'm in a lot of pain. 810 00:40:24.670 --> 00:40:26.380 And it was because you could see these cytokines, these 811 00:40:26.469 --> 00:40:30.099 pro and anti-inflammatory signals and molecules battling each other. 812 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:31.099 Wait, this is not. 813 00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:33.699 Because he had landing anxiety. It's because the body was 814 00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.639 beginning to feel gravity once again. Exactly, exactly. 815 00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:39.820 And so getting back to 1G, the body releases all 816 00:40:39.860 --> 00:40:42.269 these signals that are kind of an alarm bell to say, okay, 817 00:40:42.289 --> 00:40:44.769 we need to begin to use our muscles, rebuild our bones. 818 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:46.730 Even though they work out on the space station and 819 00:40:46.750 --> 00:40:48.909 try to prevent as much of that as possible, it 820 00:40:48.929 --> 00:40:50.550 still is different. When you come back to a full 821 00:40:50.789 --> 00:40:53.789 1G on your whole body the whole time, it hurts 822 00:40:53.809 --> 00:40:55.409 a little bit. And we could see some of those 823 00:40:55.449 --> 00:40:57.719 same signatures show up in COVID patients. So what's interesting 824 00:40:57.760 --> 00:40:59.760 is we published a paper last year saying, what's the 825 00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:02.539 list of possible medications that you could use when you 826 00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:04.840 land on gravity after you haven't been in gravity? A 827 00:41:04.900 --> 00:41:06.559 lot of them overlap with what are now being used 828 00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.039 for therapies for COVID-19, which we couldn't have predicted a 829 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:11.730 year ago. but now we can see it. And then 830 00:41:11.789 --> 00:41:13.789 even the sequencer we use, the little tiny sequencer we've 831 00:41:14.030 --> 00:41:16.510 used in space, that gives you sequence data, you know, 832 00:41:16.550 --> 00:41:19.510 within minutes, we now sequence coronaviruses on that same machine. 833 00:41:19.989 --> 00:41:20.510 Wow. 834 00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:24.739 Okay, you know, this sounds like some badass stuff. And 835 00:41:25.059 --> 00:41:29.630 we introduced you as associate professor. Why aren't you full professor? Oh, 836 00:41:29.650 --> 00:41:31.389 thanks for the lead. I just got promoted. 837 00:41:31.610 --> 00:41:32.719 Okay. 838 00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:34.219 Just now full professor. 839 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:38.000 Because if while Cornell didn't promote you, we would, okay? 840 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:42.360 You are now knighted full professor. Keep this going, dude. 841 00:41:43.420 --> 00:41:46.389 For those who are unfamiliar with academia, full professor is 842 00:41:46.469 --> 00:41:51.010 really simply you have a higher salary, but all the 843 00:41:51.050 --> 00:41:53.929 other expectations are the same of you to stay badass 844 00:41:54.489 --> 00:41:57.349 in this because you've already had tenure, so that wasn't 845 00:41:57.670 --> 00:41:58.590 the threshold here. 846 00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:01.659 So when you're looking at Scott and you're looking at 847 00:42:01.699 --> 00:42:06.000 his physiology, is there something that we can take away 848 00:42:06.059 --> 00:42:11.980 from that for like our

daily exercise routines and things 849 00:42:12.019 --> 00:42:15.420 like that? Like I read somewhere that running, for instance, 850 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.840 helps increase bone density. Like the pounding actually does something 851 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:23.320 to tell your brain to strengthen your bones. Is there 852 00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:26.340 anything that we can take like that from your studies? 853 00:42:27.469 --> 00:42:30.170 From these we've seen, when they run in space, there's actually, 854 00:42:30.190 --> 00:42:31.769 you know, they have to wear bungee cords to keep 855 00:42:31.809 --> 00:42:35.449 themselves down. But that hammering on your knees, and it 856 00:42:35.489 --> 00:42:39.900 tells your bones to really, you know, maintain this homeostasis. 857 00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.139 And there's also something called hormesis, which means when you 858 00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:44.079 kind of push yourself a little bit, if you ever 859 00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:45.639 lift weights a little bit and you push yourself hard, 860 00:42:45.659 --> 00:42:47.679 you're kind of sore that next day. But it's a 861 00:42:47.820 --> 00:42:49.920 good sore. And so we've seen some of that. You 862 00:42:49.940 --> 00:42:52.320 need to actually push yourself a little bit more if 863 00:42:52.340 --> 00:42:54.920 you can, not every time you work out. break a 864 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.000 record every time, but it helps to do so now 865 00:42:57.039 --> 00:42:59.639 and again. And it's because it helps stimulate the body 866 00:42:59.659 --> 00:43:01.619 that way. So pushing yourself a little bit is one 867 00:43:01.809 --> 00:43:03.929 simple thing they do actually with some of the exercise 868 00:43:03.969 --> 00:43:07.869 regimens in space. And also, and they're monitoring the body. 869 00:43:07.889 --> 00:43:11.349 You can actually see, Scott, when he talked about in 870 00:43:11.489 --> 00:43:13.250 his book that if he didn't work out every day, 871 00:43:13.269 --> 00:43:16.800 he could almost feel like his bones were dissolving, which 872 00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:18.780 is awful to think about. But then it's amazing, it's 873 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:21.320 in the urine data, we could see the calcium coming 874 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:23.489 out of his body. So He wasn't imagining it, it 875 00:43:23.530 --> 00:43:25.829 was actually happening. And if you don't have that, you know, 876 00:43:25.869 --> 00:43:29.849 consistent activation of your body's rebuilding, you know, you'll atrophy, 877 00:43:29.889 --> 00:43:31.090 your bones will slowly go away. 878 00:43:31.510 --> 00:43:33.250 Now, Chris, I have to just correct something you said. 879 00:43:33.469 --> 00:43:35.949 You said that the bungee cords keep them down, but 880 00:43:36.050 --> 00:43:39.369 in space, there is no down. I'm just going to 881 00:43:39.389 --> 00:43:41.909 keep you honest here. Just because you got full professor 882 00:43:41.969 --> 00:43:43.289 doesn't mean. 883 00:43:43.789 --> 00:43:45.449 There's no down in space. 884 00:43:45.750 --> 00:43:48.889 Okay, so it keeps you pulled towards the running machine, 885 00:43:49.250 --> 00:43:50.469 wherever that running machine is. 886 00:43:50.769 --> 00:43:53.929 Okay, so Scott's got a book out A Year in Space, 887 00:43:54.010 --> 00:43:57.619 A Lifetime of Discovery. But your book, Professor, The Next 888 00:43:57.619 --> 00:43:58.599 500 Years. 889 00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:01.679 Wait, Gary, say that with some drama, please. The Next 890 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:04.420 500 Years. Give me some emotion in that. 891 00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:05.039 My gosh. 892 00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:09.630 A spectacular read coming to you very shortly is The 893 00:44:11.489 --> 00:44:12.510 Next 500 Years. 894 00:44:12.530 --> 00:44:13.670 All right. 895 00:44:14.110 --> 00:44:15.010 By Professor Mason. 896 00:44:16.090 --> 00:44:17.130 So what are you going to ask him? 897 00:44:17.449 --> 00:44:18.730 All right, so if we go back 500 years. 898 00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:26.860 The discoverer Ferdinand Magellan discovers Guam. Now, that's ancient. That's 899 00:44:26.900 --> 00:44:31.289 like sailing ships and weird. In 100 years, 500 years time, 900 00:44:31.469 --> 00:44:33.349 are we going to be looking back at your work now, 901 00:44:33.389 --> 00:44:37.130 which is so exciting and think, that's ancient. 902 00:44:37.190 --> 00:44:38.489 That's boring. Look how quaint. 903 00:44:38.869 --> 00:44:40.389 Look at that. 904 00:44:40.429 --> 00:44:43.869 That's my second grade homework. That's right. Exactly. 905 00:44:44.230 --> 00:44:46.130 So, I mean, how are people going to view this? 906 00:44:46.190 --> 00:44:47.199 And where is. 907 00:44:47.190 --> 00:44:51.710 500 years, what can we do? There's a million questions 908 00:44:51.730 --> 00:44:51.929 to unravel. 909 00:44:52.110 --> 00:44:54.670 And why do you think you know what happened in 910 00:44:54.670 --> 00:44:55.070 500 years? 911 00:44:56.949 --> 00:44:59.159 It's a treatise of hope, I guess, if you will. 912 00:44:59.179 --> 00:45:02.500 I put it together as what I think humanity can 913 00:45:02.539 --> 00:45:04.179 do and also should do and that we have a 914 00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:06.340 duty to do. So when you think of duty, most 915 00:45:06.380 --> 00:45:08.679 people immediately get sleepy. You think of a duty to what? 916 00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:11.840 To feed my cats? A duty to maybe your spouse? 917 00:45:11.900 --> 00:45:14.840 Maybe to your country? Maybe it's patriotic, but you'll hopefully 918 00:45:14.860 --> 00:45:17.360 have a duty to your kids, but even that is 919 00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:19.940 not guaranteed, right? Some people just completely forego that duty. 920 00:45:20.619 --> 00:45:22.699 But there is one duty that we have as humans 921 00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:24.960 that as soon as you understand it is actually something 922 00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.460 you can control and that you can

have influence on 923 00:45:27.480 --> 00:45:30.199 the universe is just being aware of extinction. We're the 924 00:45:30.340 --> 00:45:32.920 only species that we know of that is aware of extinction. 925 00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:34.820 So then we have a duty to prevent it, not 926 00:45:34.860 --> 00:45:37.280 only our own, but also any other species and life 927 00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:39.179 form that we come across. So We have kind of 928 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:41.619 a duty to the universe that is actualized at the 929 00:45:41.659 --> 00:45:43.820 moment you realize that you understand what extinction is. 930 00:45:43.940 --> 00:45:45.719 Wait, wait, do you have a duty to a species 931 00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:50.590 that would go extinct without us? Because the tree of 932 00:45:50.650 --> 00:45:54.590 life is, there's no end of extinction on it and 933 00:45:54.610 --> 00:45:56.250 it has nothing to do with us. And the fact 934 00:45:56.289 --> 00:45:59.630 that the dinosaurs went extinct, pried open an ecological niche 935 00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:02.000 that allowed us to rise up. So who are you 936 00:46:02.019 --> 00:46:04.840 to pass judgment on what life form should or should 937 00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:06.820 not go extinct if we have nothing to do with 938 00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:07.340 that extinction? 939 00:46:08.059 --> 00:46:08.960 I it's even. 940 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.750 Independent of whether we cause it or not. It's just 941 00:46:10.769 --> 00:46:13.349 that life. So I start from the premise that, that 942 00:46:13.469 --> 00:46:16.429 life and actually self-aware life, that is life as aware 943 00:46:16.449 --> 00:46:19.190 of extinction is unique in the universe and, and any 944 00:46:19.230 --> 00:46:21.070 other life that doesn't have, it doesn't have this duty. 945 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:23.800 So even extinct life, even if we didn't cause it, 946 00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:25.199 you can bring it back, but you have to do 947 00:46:25.219 --> 00:46:26.780 it carefully because what, if you bring it back, if 948 00:46:26.800 --> 00:46:29.929 you bring back dinosaurs, they probably would, rampage through and eat. 949 00:46:29.769 --> 00:46:30.730 A lot of them. 950 00:46:30.750 --> 00:46:33.190 So that's not necessarily advice. So, you know, I think 951 00:46:33.210 --> 00:46:35.230 we should start on an Island, a small Island, but 952 00:46:35.250 --> 00:46:36.070 what could go wrong? 953 00:46:36.130 --> 00:46:36.309 Right. 954 00:46:36.329 --> 00:46:40.219 You know, what could go wrong? No, but it, but 955 00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:42.900 it conceptually is there, there are species we've clearly caused 956 00:46:42.920 --> 00:46:44.980 their extinction. And I think we have a moral duty 957 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:47.400 to try and even bring them back, especially there's with 958 00:46:47.420 --> 00:46:49.739 genetic technologies. We can do so some of those same 959 00:46:49.780 --> 00:46:53.420 technologies and allow us to make immunotherapies where you can 960 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.679 engineer your T cells to go after cancer cells very 961 00:46:55.800 --> 00:46:59.150 exquisitely and So this idea of genome engineering and cellular 962 00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:01.730 engineering is already deployed in clinical trials around the world. 963 00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:04.429 And some of that same technology lets us be sort 964 00:47:04.449 --> 00:47:07.349 of the safe guardians and shepherds of life and maybe 965 00:47:07.389 --> 00:47:09.369 even bring it back. But we're in no hurry to 966 00:47:09.389 --> 00:47:10.349 do that. That would be very slow. 967 00:47:10.630 --> 00:47:14.690 I like that. So you're not some sci-fi guy thinking 968 00:47:14.829 --> 00:47:17.320 what new contraption we're going to have or what new spaceship. 969 00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:21.820 You're thinking of our duty to ourselves, to our civilization, 970 00:47:21.940 --> 00:47:24.320 and to the planet and our ecosystem. I think that's 971 00:47:24.340 --> 00:47:25.420 a noble cause. 972 00:47:25.460 --> 00:47:25.639 Yeah. 973 00:47:26.570 --> 00:47:28.550 In 500 years, if all goes as you want, what 974 00:47:28.750 --> 00:47:29.710 does it all look like? 975 00:47:30.269 --> 00:47:32.730 So hopefully we would end up to Mars eventually, which 976 00:47:32.789 --> 00:47:35.150 is the first step on a stairwell towards preservation. Because 977 00:47:35.849 --> 00:47:38.230 every moral question becomes immediately clear when you put it 978 00:47:38.269 --> 00:47:40.010 out to a billion years. That's when the sun gets 979 00:47:40.050 --> 00:47:42.099 big enough to start to heat the Earth. And it's 980 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:43.260 really going to be really hard to live here. If 981 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:44.980 you go out five billion years, the sun's probably going 982 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.260 to be at the surface of the Earth, like they're 983 00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.820 going to be touching and kissing. So no matter what 984 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.800 we do, if we achieve perfect pieces of species... And 985 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:56.019 perfect technological bliss. If we're still physically here, you know, 986 00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.000 really even in a billion years, then that's it for us. 987 00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:00.519 And so I think we're worth preserving. And that means 988 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:02.039 eventually we have to start going. So we have to 989 00:48:02.059 --> 00:48:04.480 start to go to the moon, to Mars. I think 990 00:48:04.519 --> 00:48:05.840 by 400 years from now, we might be able to 991 00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:07.679 get to have some people in Titan. And at the 992 00:48:07.699 --> 00:48:09.659 end of the book, at 500 years, I say we 993 00:48:09.699 --> 00:48:11.980 might have enough knowledge and understanding of physiology to be 994 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:13.940 able to send people on what's called the generation ship, 995 00:48:14.239 -->

00:48:16.360 where people live and die for multiple generations on their 996 00:48:16.409 --> 00:48:17.300 way towards a new star. 997 00:48:17.769 --> 00:48:22.980 So in the book, I put- in the service of 998 00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:25.780 this longevity and this insight? 999 00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:27.659 Because I think we might need to. The other option, 1000 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.179 if you send humans to a planet that they've not 1001 00:48:29.219 --> 00:48:31.199 evolved on, it's like, just say, good luck, and hopefully 1002 00:48:31.219 --> 00:48:34.769 you survive. But if you have biochemical and genetic capacity 1003 00:48:34.809 --> 00:48:37.030 to protect people, and we don't use it, that would 1004 00:48:37.150 --> 00:48:39.469 actually be more unethical. So we could actually protect you from, 1005 00:48:39.889 --> 00:48:41.630 assuming it works and it's safe, of course, which we 1006 00:48:41.650 --> 00:48:42.150 have to prove. 1007 00:48:42.389 --> 00:48:43.949 So ethics is a big part of this book. So 1008 00:48:43.969 --> 00:48:46.900 what about the ethics of sending a group of fertile 1009 00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:50.139 people into space who then give birth to a next generation, 1010 00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:55.289 a generational ship, And that generation is born only ever 1011 00:48:55.389 --> 00:48:58.909 knowing that their job is to have another generation so 1012 00:48:58.949 --> 00:49:04.550 that some generation down the line gets the prize. And 1013 00:49:04.670 --> 00:49:09.170 so isn't that a form of prison or slavery? You 1014 00:49:09.190 --> 00:49:09.389 know what? 1015 00:49:09.429 --> 00:49:12.809 I'm going to call that a form of early civilization 1016 00:49:12.809 --> 00:49:18.070 here on Earth. Because honestly, that's all early civilization on 1017 00:49:18.090 --> 00:49:20.860 Earth was. That's all it ever was. Here we are 1018 00:49:20.969 --> 00:49:22.239 on this rock spinning around. And I'm going to have 1019 00:49:22.260 --> 00:49:24.659 some babies in this new place. And the whole thing is, 1020 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:26.760 have some babies. We're stuck here. We've got to have 1021 00:49:26.780 --> 00:49:28.940 more babies so that we can stay here. And now 1022 00:49:29.019 --> 00:49:31.440 here we are where we are. Eight billion of us. 1023 00:49:32.019 --> 00:49:36.119 But human evolution has been migration, whether it's been north, south, east, west. 1024 00:49:36.179 --> 00:49:38.340 Mainly east, west because of temperate zones and all the 1025 00:49:38.380 --> 00:49:40.829 rest of it. So once we've kind of got to 1026 00:49:40.869 --> 00:49:45.250 a point on this planet, the migration to another seems 1027 00:49:45.289 --> 00:49:48.480 to be just another development of our story. 1028 00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:49.239 Humans being human. 1029 00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:51.860 Yeah. And I mean, at the moment, we've got Russia 1030 00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:54.840 and China joining forces to go and build some sort

1031 00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:57.679 of bases on the moon or around the moon. I mean, 1032 00:49:57.699 --> 00:50:00.969 are we looking at this, Chris, as because of think 1033 00:50:01.010 --> 00:50:03.989 of this problem Scott experienced coming back after a year 1034 00:50:04.050 --> 00:50:08.239 in space physically. Would we use things like moon bases, 1035 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:12.039 call them that, as stepping stones back into 1G rather 1036 00:50:12.059 --> 00:50:13.599 than just come straight back to Earth? 1037 00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:14.780 Absolutely. 1038 00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:17.219 It'd probably be easier. I mean, that's one sixth gravity there. And, 1039 00:50:17.300 --> 00:50:19.869 you know, Mars is, you know, 38 percent gravity. So 1040 00:50:19.909 --> 00:50:21.909 hopefully these will give you a little stepping stone. So 1041 00:50:21.929 --> 00:50:24.489 it wouldn't be as bad. But then, you know, eventually, 1042 00:50:24.510 --> 00:50:26.570 you know, think about people who just live, you know, 1043 00:50:26.590 --> 00:50:29.070 think about what happened to the Australians when they left England. 1044 00:50:29.329 --> 00:50:31.050 They got a different accent. They get a different culture. 1045 00:50:31.070 --> 00:50:32.550 You get you know, on a different planet, you'll get 1046 00:50:32.570 --> 00:50:34.809 different physiology as well. So we would expect them to 1047 00:50:34.849 --> 00:50:35.409 become different. 1048 00:50:35.610 --> 00:50:38.019 Plus the deer in Australia have pouches. 1049 00:50:43.300 --> 00:50:45.139 So I'm hopeful, you. 1050 00:50:45.099 --> 00:50:46.880 Know, I think, well, the great thing about the book, 1051 00:50:46.960 --> 00:50:48.510 I guess at the end is that we've discovered all 1052 00:50:48.530 --> 00:50:50.489 the new genes that we didn't know existed even 20 1053 00:50:50.489 --> 00:50:52.630 years ago. And we've discovered all these planets, exoplanets that 1054 00:50:52.670 --> 00:50:54.809 we didn't even know 25 years ago. So I call 1055 00:50:54.829 --> 00:50:57.309 them twin engines of discovery because Now we know what 1056 00:50:57.329 --> 00:50:59.269 genes we can use to understand them and keep us 1057 00:50:59.309 --> 00:51:01.030 safe potentially. And we know which planets we could eventually 1058 00:51:01.050 --> 00:51:03.210 go to. So I hope 500 years from now, we 1059 00:51:03.230 --> 00:51:05.409 would pick the best one or several and then send 1060 00:51:05.429 --> 00:51:08.699 people there. And maybe we'd get some interesting sitcoms that 1061 00:51:08.739 --> 00:51:10.800 get broadcast from this other new planet potentially. 1062 00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:14.440 I think it's brilliant to have this addition to the 1063 00:51:14.500 --> 00:51:20.449 futurist's portfolio because it's usually some technologist, it's some fantasy writer, 1064 00:51:20.510 --> 00:51:25.130 it's somebody imagining a future and you're coming at it physiologically. 1065 00:51:25.349 --> 00:51:29.829 I think that's a brilliant... construct for a book and 1066 00:51:31.090 --> 00:51:33.449 we'll look for it on the bestseller list if it's 1067 00:51:33.489 --> 00:51:36.630 not already there because that's totally what we should all 1068 00:51:36.670 --> 00:51:39.050 be thinking about rather than just the next two years 1069 00:51:39.090 --> 00:51:41.380 or the next four years for an election is anyone 1070 00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:43.280 thinking about the next century. 1071 00:51:44.519 --> 00:51:46.119 So let me ask you this how do you feel 1072 00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:48.119 this is not related to anything that we're talking about 1073 00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:52.539 I'm just interested in your opinion on the project to 1074 00:51:53.239 --> 00:52:00.179 take 500 fertilized eggs and put them on the moon 1075 00:52:01.130 --> 00:52:04.489 the same way we did with seeds in wherever we 1076 00:52:04.510 --> 00:52:06.250 put the seeds. What was it? You mean to store 1077 00:52:06.269 --> 00:52:09.309 them on the moon? To store them on the moon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1078 00:52:09.349 --> 00:52:11.929 Basically like a seed vault, but for humankind. 1079 00:52:14.050 --> 00:52:16.110 It would be, they'd have to be really well maintained 1080 00:52:16.170 --> 00:52:18.309 up there. You know, tardigrades fell on the moon when 1081 00:52:18.369 --> 00:52:20.469 the Israeli spacecraft crashed on there a year and a 1082 00:52:20.489 --> 00:52:22.989 half ago. And I think those have all been probably 1083 00:52:23.030 --> 00:52:25.980 irradiated and not useful. But I think If they're buried 1084 00:52:26.019 --> 00:52:26.880 deep and they're. 1085 00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:28.260 Radiated and now they're large. 1086 00:52:29.239 --> 00:52:31.489 You didn't see. 1087 00:52:31.449 --> 00:52:32.369 The right movies, Chris. 1088 00:52:33.010 --> 00:52:34.650 When you get radiated, you become big. 1089 00:52:35.170 --> 00:52:35.929 Okay, duh. 1090 00:52:36.610 --> 00:52:38.190 And green, sometimes green. 1091 00:52:38.230 --> 00:52:39.789 And green, thank you. 1092 00:52:39.809 --> 00:52:44.570 Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I think it's, I think preserving, 1093 00:52:44.869 --> 00:52:46.380 you know, we can actually embed a lot of the 1094 00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:48.519 genomes now in a digital code, right? So this is 1095 00:52:48.559 --> 00:52:51.159 being done in something called the Genome Arc Project. sequencing 1096 00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:53.400 as many genomes on Earth as possible as kind of 1097 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:57.449 a reservoir of human and biological diversity of everything we 1098 00:52:57.469 --> 00:52:59.210 know on Earth. And so I think you can put 1099 00:52:59.230 --> 00:52:59.929 it in digital form. 1100 00:52:59.949 --> 00:53:01.010 That might be simpler. Interesting. 1101 00:53:01.030 --> 00:53:04.010 Good point because, Chuck, I can write a book on 1102 00:53:04.269 --> 00:53:07.369 engines and store the book. I don't have to store

1103 00:53:07.409 --> 00:53:07.769 the engine. 1104 00:53:08.250 --> 00:53:08.389 Right. 1105 00:53:08.469 --> 00:53:10.670 Okay. You can read the book, the information about the engine, 1106 00:53:10.690 --> 00:53:14.900 and then rebuild the engine. So we've got to land 1107 00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:15.719 this plane at some point. 1108 00:53:15.780 --> 00:53:16.960 Wow. I know. 1109 00:53:17.260 --> 00:53:19.739 So, Chris, let me take us out with this final 1110 00:53:19.780 --> 00:53:25.760 question to you. What have you genetically engineered in your basement? 1111 00:53:26.190 --> 00:53:30.210 We won't tell anyone. Just what do you have? You 1112 00:53:30.250 --> 00:53:31.710 can whisper it, okay? 1113 00:53:31.869 --> 00:53:32.650 We won't tell anybody. 1114 00:53:33.110 --> 00:53:34.269 Just a couple of things. 1115 00:53:34.849 --> 00:53:36.929 Just a couple of things. Just a couple of things. 1116 00:53:40.329 --> 00:53:45.250 We've got a butterfly that tastes like barbecue sauce. We 1117 00:53:45.289 --> 00:53:46.050 do have one thing in the lab. 1118 00:53:46.070 --> 00:53:46.389 That's true. 1119 00:53:46.409 --> 00:53:48.769 Those we took genes from tardigrades that can resist radiation 1120 00:53:48.809 --> 00:53:50.840 and put them into human cells. And now they have 1121 00:53:50.840 --> 00:53:53.420 80% more resistant to radiation. So that is something we 1122 00:53:53.460 --> 00:53:56.139 have done with tardigrades. And now you can actually, you know, 1123 00:53:56.179 --> 00:53:58.260 take some of these immune function genes and also put 1124 00:53:58.280 --> 00:53:58.719 them in cells. 1125 00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:01.420 So we're, so it means you can go repair Chernobyl. 1126 00:54:02.199 --> 00:54:04.590 Yeah, potentially. I mean, I think any gene we see 1127 00:54:04.610 --> 00:54:06.969 from any species on this planet or others can be 1128 00:54:07.030 --> 00:54:10.050 essentially a part of the genetic toolbox of surviving. 1129 00:54:10.289 --> 00:54:12.130 Right, because nature already gave it to you. You're just 1130 00:54:12.170 --> 00:54:12.789 rearranging them. 1131 00:54:13.389 --> 00:54:13.849 Right, right. 1132 00:54:13.929 --> 00:54:14.489 Very cool. 1133 00:54:14.510 --> 00:54:16.590 But safely and carefully and in one space and not 1134 00:54:16.610 --> 00:54:17.389 releasing to the world. 1135 00:54:17.429 --> 00:54:17.829 Yes, yes. 1136 00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:21.460 Well, Chris, good luck with the book. It's a fascinating 1137 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:25.599 topic and I think is an underserved topic. And you're 1138 00:54:25.780 --> 00:54:28.420 clearly the right person to put that out there. So 1139 00:54:28.820 --> 00:54:30.699 thanks for being on StarTalk. We would totally want to 1140 00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:33.409 have you back on again because if for no other reason, 1141 00:54:33.429 --> 00:54:36.150 we'll find some reason to bring you back on because 1142 00:54:36.170 --> 00:54:39.519 you do fascinating work. Congratulations on your promotion to professor. 1143 00:54:39.539 --> 00:54:43.000 Thank you, sir. And so that means you're old and gray, 1144 00:54:43.059 --> 00:54:43.500 I think. 1145 00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:45.800 Yes. And it's a pipe you have to smoke. It's 1146 00:54:45.820 --> 00:54:46.199 coming in. 1147 00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:47.860 It's coming in. 1148 00:54:49.070 --> 00:54:49.429 All right. 1149 00:54:49.530 --> 00:54:51.750 Chuck, always good to have you. Always a pleasure. 1150 00:54:51.969 --> 00:54:55.210 Tweeting at Chuck Nice Comic. Gary tweeting at my three 1151 00:54:55.230 --> 00:54:55.630 left feet. 1152 00:54:55.690 --> 00:54:56.670 Is that it? Correct. Yes. 1153 00:54:57.130 --> 00:54:58.969 Yeah. Chris, do you have social media presence? 1154 00:54:59.429 --> 00:54:59.989 Yeah. 1155 00:55:00.050 --> 00:55:01.210 Just Mason underscore lab. 1156 00:55:01.250 --> 00:55:01.730 Mason lab. 1157 00:55:01.769 --> 00:55:01.929 Yep. 1158 00:55:02.670 --> 00:55:04.619 Mason lab. All right. On Twitter, I guess that is. 1159 00:55:05.130 --> 00:55:05.309 Yes. 1160 00:55:05.429 --> 00:55:05.769 Yes, sir. 1161 00:55:05.789 --> 00:55:05.949 Yeah. 1162 00:55:05.969 --> 00:55:06.250 All right. 1163 00:55:06.269 --> 00:55:08.500 We'll keep an eye on you. All right, everyone, this 1164 00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:13.510 has been StarTalk Sports Edition, the right stuff. And as always, 1165 00:55:13.630 --> 00:55:15.889 I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson bidding you to keep looking up.