บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ StarTalk Podcast_ Coronavirus _ Conspiracy Theories_ with Michael Shermer _ Neil deGrasse Tyson

of the coronavirus theory, maybe 72 00:04:00.099 --> 00:04:01.960 he has a point. Maybe we can learn something from them. 73 00:04:02.819 --> 00:04:04.800 In other words, there's a kind of concept creep or 74 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:07.460 the bin theory. of which we put stuff in that 75 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:10.000 we think is dangerous, gets larger and larger. 76 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.620 So is this, it seems to me, we've all heard 77 00:04:13.659 --> 00:04:16.540 the phrase, the devil's advocate. And if I remember correctly, 78 00:04:16.579 --> 00:04:21.730 this would be in Catholic church trials, where someone, you know, 79 00:04:21.750 --> 00:04:24.769 you're accused of heresy, and someone would be appointed by 80 00:04:24.790 --> 00:04:27.689 the church to defend you in the face of the heresy. 81 00:04:28.329 --> 00:04:30.569 And of course, you're on the side of the devil. 82 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:33.250 So we need someone to defend the devil and devil's advocate. 83 00:04:33.509 --> 00:04:35.360 So that was, it seems like, even though the whole 84 00:04:35.379 --> 00:04:36.310 system was rigged against you. 85 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:37.529 I was going to say, nice to see that this 86 00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:42.810 court isn't biased. I'm already on the side of the 87 00:04:42.910 --> 00:04:48.560 devil as you are prosecuting me for being on the 88 00:04:48.620 --> 00:04:49.500 side of the devil. 89 00:04:51.660 --> 00:04:54.019 But that has an inkling of what you're saying, I think. 90 00:04:54.060 --> 00:04:56.819 Yeah, that's right. Actually, the position, the devil's advocate, the 91 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:01.180 Advocatus Diabli was positioned by the Catholic Church Also to 92 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:04.759 act as a skeptic against miracle claims. That is to say, 93 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.000 everybody and their brother had somebody they thought should be canonized. 94 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:10.959 And you have to be, you know, I forget, it 95 00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:13.600 was like two major miracles and three minor miracles to 96 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:14.000 be canonized. 97 00:05:14.019 --> 00:05:15.120 It's a checklist. It's a checklist. 98 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.420 It's a checklist. And so, you know, everybody had a 99 00:05:19.459 --> 00:05:24.800 story about weeping statues and bleeding pictures and miracle cures 100 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:26.759 and things like this. So the Catholic Church realized that 101 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.459 most of these are bogus. So they would appoint a skeptic, essentially, 102 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:31.649 someone like, yourself or me, to go out there and 103 00:05:31.670 --> 00:05:35.149 investigate and find the natural explanation. And then once all 104 00:05:35.170 --> 00:05:38.089 those are eliminated, then if there's some left, then they 105 00:05:38.110 --> 00:05:40.259 could say, well, that one is a miracle. Now, you 106 00:05:40.300 --> 00:05:41.720 and I would not go that far, of course, but 107 00:05:42.379 --> 00:05:44.660 they did centuries ago. So the devil's advocate was actually 108 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:46.540 a valuable position, a skeptical position. 109 00:05:46.850 --> 00:05:53.050 Yeah. I'm going with the Blue Oyster Cult. I'm living 110 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:55.709 for giving the devil his due. That's where I come in. 111 00:05:56.370 --> 00:05:58.610 And I'm burning. I'm burning. I'm burning for you. 112 00:05:59.850 --> 00:06:01.050 There's a song in there. 113 00:06:05.720 --> 00:06:10.839 Okay, but you need free speech in order to combat 114 00:06:11.540 --> 00:06:12.439 conspiracy theories. 115 00:06:13.509 --> 00:06:16.389 Yeah, that's right. So, you know, here I kind of articulate. 116 00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:18.470 So let's bring this back to coronavirus. So how does 117 00:06:18.490 --> 00:06:19.540 this play out? How does this work? 118 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:22.240 So the reason we need free speech is because most 119 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:24.540 of us are wrong much of the time. And so 120 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:26.139 the only way to find out is to listen to 121 00:06:26.180 --> 00:06:29.079 what other people have to say. So the moment you think, well, 122 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.180 we have the final truth. No, we don't have the final. 123 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:33.379 We never have the final truths. There are no truths 124 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:35.879 with a capital T in science. And the coronavirus is 125 00:06:35.899 --> 00:06:38.759 a perfect example of this. There's so many unknowns. And, 126 00:06:38.899 --> 00:06:41.910 you know, although I admire Dr. Fauci very much, he's 127 00:06:41.949 --> 00:06:45.589 not omniscient. He's not God. He may be wrong about 128 00:06:45.629 --> 00:06:48.769 some things. And the CDC, same thing and so forth. 129 00:06:49.230 --> 00:06:50.750 So it's good to listen to the people that are, 130 00:06:50.970 --> 00:06:53.949 you know, kind of pull away from that or they're, 131 00:06:54.089 --> 00:06:55.850 you know, they disagree a little bit. Could be this, 132 00:06:55.910 --> 00:06:58.490 could be that. Is it a bioweapon or is it a, 133 00:06:58.550 --> 00:07:01.769 you know, genetically engineered virus or is it a bat virus? Well, 134 00:07:01.790 --> 00:07:04.009 we have the answer to that now. But it's okay 135 00:07:04.050 --> 00:07:06.000 to talk about that because, you know, maybe it is 136 00:07:06.009 --> 00:07:09.589 this or that. And the things with conspiracy theories, Neil, 137 00:07:09.649 --> 00:07:11.329 is that a lot of them, there's enough of them 138 00:07:11.370 --> 00:07:16.279 that are true, that it pays to be constructively conspiracy-minded, 139 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:21.259 that is, a little paranoid. And it's not that we 140 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:23.300 think Bill Gates is going to take over the world 141 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.000 or 5G is causing the coronavirus, but we do know 142 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:31.439

that pharmaceutical companies have hacked the FDA system of regulations 143 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.759 to cheat the standards and make more money. We know 144 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:39.139 Volkswagen hacked the mission standards to make money. We know 145 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:44.819 government agents and politicians lie and insider trading and Wall Street. 146 00:07:44.850 --> 00:07:46.670 There's enough of these kinds of things that go on 147 00:07:47.290 --> 00:07:49.529 that when someone says, you know, I'm a little skeptical 148 00:07:49.589 --> 00:07:51.829 about what the CDC said or what the Chinese are 149 00:07:51.850 --> 00:07:55.610 telling us, that's not a crazy position to take. In 150 00:07:55.649 --> 00:07:58.240 other words, enough of it happens that there's kind of 151 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:01.699 a logic to listening to some of it, at least. Now, 152 00:08:01.819 --> 00:08:04.060 you sort of go from like 10% away from the 153 00:08:04.100 --> 00:08:08.110 Fauci mainstream to 20% to David Icke thinks it's the 154 00:08:08.410 --> 00:08:13.199 5G towers and Bill Gates. But the problem of silencing him, 155 00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:16.259 let's say he got kicked off YouTube because he appeared 156 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:18.939 on this British TV show, a YouTube channel. 157 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:20.620 Wait, who got kicked off? 158 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:23.860 This guy named David Icke, who's sort of the Alex 159 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.519 Jones of England. I mean, he's way out there. He 160 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:30.290 thinks the lizard aliens are secretly running the world and 161 00:08:30.310 --> 00:08:32.970 all this stuff. I mean, he is way out there. 162 00:08:33.230 --> 00:08:36.639 Chuck thinks that, by the way. Chuck is totally... Behind 163 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:38.120 that one. 164 00:08:38.210 --> 00:08:42.149 They're more amphibians than they are. 165 00:08:42.809 --> 00:08:44.690 Sorry, I got that wrong. 166 00:08:44.710 --> 00:08:48.950 Hey, don't lump me in with the crazies. I'm talking 167 00:08:49.049 --> 00:08:49.789 frog people. 168 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:54.029 You know, there is a funny story about that, that 169 00:08:54.070 --> 00:08:58.889 the 9-11 truthers are kind of divided amongst themselves about 170 00:09:00.909 --> 00:09:04.129 whether there really were planes or not. There's an extreme 171 00:09:04.610 --> 00:09:08.399 group of the truthers who think they're called the no-plainers, 172 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:12.879 that these were holographic images that people think they saw planes, 173 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:16.279 but it was actually just explosive devices. And the regular 174 00:09:16.299 --> 00:09:18.820 9-11 truthers who just think it was an inside job 175 00:09:18.860 --> 00:09:22.500 by the Bush administration, they say, oh, those no-plainers, they're crazy. 176 00:09:23.259 --> 00:09:25.919 So it's kind of funny that they debunk each other. 177 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:30.090 And there's splits like that in creationism, and the flat 178 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:32.950 earthers are divided about their arguments. And So it's kind 179 00:09:32.990 --> 00:09:34.629 of fun to watch them go at each other. But 180 00:09:34.649 --> 00:09:37.429 that's part of the free speech. Let everybody have their voice. 181 00:09:37.789 --> 00:09:40.259 It'll be pretty obvious which ones are crazy and which 182 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:41.500 ones are not. 183 00:09:41.940 --> 00:09:46.539 So may I ask this, Michael? With respect to health 184 00:09:46.620 --> 00:09:52.529 concerns such as a pandemic, there are consequences to misinformation. 185 00:09:52.529 --> 00:09:59.039 And there are consequences to for people who propagate conspiracy 186 00:09:59.179 --> 00:10:03.940 theories to the detriment of the greater society how do 187 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:08.240 you deal with that so here's a person who says Like, 188 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.759 we shouldn't do A, B, and C. I don't care 189 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:13.389 what it is. Let's just say. But A, B, and 190 00:10:13.490 --> 00:10:17.950 C actually contributes to the public good by keeping us 191 00:10:18.190 --> 00:10:21.710 all safe from one another and mitigating the spread of 192 00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:24.809 the disease. What do you do with somebody like that 193 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:27.500 who is posing an imminent threat? 194 00:10:28.139 --> 00:10:28.360 Yeah. 195 00:10:28.940 --> 00:10:31.679 Well, I agree with you on that. And there's a 196 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:34.620 distinction between that, which is actual action or behavior that 197 00:10:34.659 --> 00:10:38.409 people take, versus the words that they speak. Less concerned 198 00:10:38.450 --> 00:10:41.669 about the words that they speak, but going out without 199 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:45.019 a mask or mingling amongst other people when you're sick. 200 00:10:45.700 --> 00:10:48.059 You know, a lot of Americans have this crazy idea 201 00:10:48.100 --> 00:10:50.240 that freedom means I can do anything I want. Like 202 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:52.139 there was that viral video last week of the woman 203 00:10:52.179 --> 00:10:55.120 in Target, might have been Costco, you know, purposely coughing 204 00:10:55.139 --> 00:10:57.789 into somebody's face. You know, I'm an American and the 205 00:10:57.830 --> 00:11:00.250 Constitution says I can do anything I want. No, ma'am, 206 00:11:00.309 --> 00:11:02.809 it does not say that. You know, you are not 207 00:11:02.929 --> 00:11:05.450 free to drive on the left side of the road, right? 208 00:11:05.850 --> 00:11:08.889 You give up that freedom for the security of a 209 00:11:08.970 --> 00:11:11.509 safer drive, right? And just go right down the line 210 00:11:11.529 --> 00:11:13.960 from there. There's a thousand freedoms you give up every 211 00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:18.220 day in the national interest or security or safety of 212 00:11:18.259 --> 00:11:21.159 your community,

whatever. And, you know, the kind of that 213 00:11:21.220 --> 00:11:24.740 libertarian notion can go too far. I mean, the freedom 214 00:11:24.779 --> 00:11:26.600 for you to swing your arm ends at my nose 215 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:29.340 and the freedom for your kid to cough in my 216 00:11:29.379 --> 00:11:32.519 kid's face when he's got, you know, a communicable disease 217 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:37.129 that ends at my kid's, you know, health. So, you know, 218 00:11:37.169 --> 00:11:40.009 to the anti-vaxxers who say, well, I should be free 219 00:11:40.049 --> 00:11:43.080 not to vaccinate my kid. Well, okay, maybe, but then 220 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:45.460 my kid should be free from your kid. So you 221 00:11:45.500 --> 00:11:48.419 can't send your kid to public schools, public libraries, public pools, 222 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.000 you know, don't let them out of the house because, 223 00:11:51.059 --> 00:11:53.919 you know, that's a risk. So, and we make those 224 00:11:53.960 --> 00:11:57.139 kinds of sacrifices in the interest of health and safety 225 00:11:57.220 --> 00:11:59.759 all the time. So the coronavirus has kind of pushed 226 00:11:59.779 --> 00:12:03.620 people on this. You see these people very confused about 227 00:12:03.659 --> 00:12:04.559 what freedom means. 228 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:08.850 So my question is, What makes the coronavirus more susceptible 229 00:12:09.470 --> 00:12:13.350 to conspiracy theories than some other thing that might be 230 00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:15.409 in the news? Is it because we don't have a 231 00:12:16.289 --> 00:12:19.250 complete and total handle on it, and so that leaves 232 00:12:19.409 --> 00:12:22.830 open a room for people's imaginations? 233 00:12:22.889 --> 00:12:24.549 Is that the cause and effect of this? 234 00:12:24.809 --> 00:12:25.070 Yeah. 235 00:12:25.570 --> 00:12:29.409 To quote one of your heroes, Aristotle, you know, nature 236 00:12:29.450 --> 00:12:32.220 abhors a vacuum. The mind abhors a vacuum of explanation. 237 00:12:32.899 --> 00:12:34.899 and we'll fill it with anything we got. And so we, 238 00:12:35.019 --> 00:12:36.899 we didn't know for a while what was going on 239 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:40.259 with the coronavirus and, uh, you know, the novel coronavirus, 240 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:42.090 that's why it was called that it was novel. You know, 241 00:12:42.110 --> 00:12:44.490 we'd never seen it before. The origin was, you know, 242 00:12:44.690 --> 00:12:49.490 kind of, um, obscure. China wasn't exactly the, you know, 243 00:12:49.509 --> 00:12:54.730 the most honest regime and trustworthy regime. And, and then 244 00:12:54.750 --> 00:12:59.070 the COVID-19, uh, pandemic that comes from the coronavirus. And 245 00:12:59.450 --> 00:13:01.169 we weren't sure how fast that was going to spread. 246 00:13:02.330 --> 00:13:03.929 you know, in hindsight, it's like, yeah, we should have 247 00:13:03.950 --> 00:13:06.529 closed the economy a few weeks earlier, like Germany did, 248 00:13:06.549 --> 00:13:08.470 because look, now they're coming out of it sooner than 249 00:13:08.509 --> 00:13:11.830 we are, so forth. But nobody knew that. That's with hindsight, right? 250 00:13:11.850 --> 00:13:14.720 We just didn't know. And, you know, I was there 251 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:18.240 at that TED conference when Bill Gates gave that famous speech, 252 00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:21.919 now seen gone viral on video, I think it was 2015, saying, 253 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:23.980 this is coming. It's the next big thing. And we're 254 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:26.340 all like, yeah, yeah, we've heard this before, you know, 255 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:28.740 the H1N1 and the bird flu and the swine flu. 256 00:13:28.779 --> 00:13:32.429 And Ebola and on and on. Every couple of years, 257 00:13:32.450 --> 00:13:35.110 there's one of these things and everybody says, this is it. 258 00:13:35.250 --> 00:13:37.789 And then it peters out. OK, so it was not 259 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:40.049 completely crazy to think this might just peter out. 260 00:13:40.870 --> 00:13:41.029 Right. 261 00:13:41.169 --> 00:13:43.779 And but now we go, oh, OK, it didn't. So 262 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.700 that kind of opens the door. This is so you 263 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.860 have uncertainty, a threat, a serious threat, a real threat. 264 00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:53.129 And then couple that to a couple other things that 265 00:13:53.149 --> 00:13:56.629 were going on. The rollout of 5G at the same time, right? 266 00:13:56.669 --> 00:13:58.789 So what is 5G? Well, it's an extension of 4G. 267 00:13:58.830 --> 00:14:02.139 It's this invisible force, the electromagnetic radiation. I can't see it, 268 00:14:02.389 --> 00:14:05.059 like nuclear energy. I can't see it, smell it, taste it, 269 00:14:05.070 --> 00:14:05.399 touch it. 270 00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:07.009 And it's dangerous. 271 00:14:07.070 --> 00:14:10.870 It's potentially threatening. And so the 5G thing. And then 272 00:14:10.889 --> 00:14:13.190 you throw in, there's always a fear. 273 00:14:13.210 --> 00:14:17.269 Plus, 5G was pioneered by the Chinese. So that gave 274 00:14:17.309 --> 00:14:22.750 a double force operating on the fertility of the discussion. 275 00:14:23.210 --> 00:14:26.509 Parenthetically, we should note that the counterfactual cities that don't 276 00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:29.950 have 5G that have been hit by the coronavirus and 277 00:14:30.250 --> 00:14:35.490 so forth, that refutes that hypothesis. But nevertheless, also another 278 00:14:35.789 --> 00:14:41.210 normal driving force behind conspiracy theories is power differentials. So 279 00:14:41.269 --> 00:14:45.629 conspiracy theories are usually targeted at rich and powerful people, corporations, 280 00:14:45.730 --> 00:14:50.700 big government agents and agencies and so forth. And So, 281 00:14:50.820 --> 00:14:55.240 you know, here's Bill Gates now involved in public health, vaccinations,

282 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:59.620 things like this and the virus. And he's rich and powerful. And, 283 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:01.320 you know, that kind of got lumped in there with 284 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:04.980 the big companies rolling out 5G. And then big pharma 285 00:15:05.059 --> 00:15:06.840 is always in that formula. 286 00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:07.500 Right. 287 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:09.820 So here they're now being discussed, you know, who they're 288 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.419 going to make a vaccine that everybody has to take. 289 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:14.110 So they're going to make a fortune on it. And 290 00:15:14.129 --> 00:15:16.259 then Bill Gates is going to chip everybody so he 291 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.799 can control the world population. And before you know it, 292 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:21.940 you've gone off the deep end. 293 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:25.730 By the way, Michael, it's not a chip. It's nanites. 294 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:30.370 I was wondering how they're going to fit them inside 295 00:15:30.389 --> 00:15:30.870 the needle. 296 00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:31.330 Yeah. 297 00:15:31.470 --> 00:15:35.009 Yeah, nanobots. That's right, nanobots. 298 00:15:35.029 --> 00:15:36.960 We're going to take a break. And when we come back, we'll... 299 00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:41.909 Take your questions that have been solicited. We were overloaded 300 00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:45.789 with skeptics' questions about the coronavirus and skepticism in general 301 00:15:46.169 --> 00:15:51.440 when we come back on StarTalk. We're back. StarTalk. This 302 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:57.700 is actually a Cosmic Queries edition exploring conspiracy theories in 303 00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:59.879 the coronavirus. I got checked nice, as always. 304 00:16:00.350 --> 00:16:01.629 And I don't believe you, Neil. 305 00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:03.279 You don't believe me. 306 00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:07.019 I don't believe this is an episode about exploring conspiracies. 307 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:13.360 We've got Michael Shermer, who is the patron saint of– 308 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.179 can I say that about you, Michael? Patron saint of skeptics. 309 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:18.940 I have one more miracle before I'm sainted. 310 00:16:21.340 --> 00:16:25.080 So with his new book out, give me the full name, 311 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:26.159 The Devil. 312 00:16:25.899 --> 00:16:27.039 Giving the Devil His Due. 313 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:27.460 Here it is. 314 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:28.440 Here it is. There it is. 315 00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:28.860 There you go. 316 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:30.159 Giving the Devil His Due, yep. 317 00:16:31.570 --> 00:16:36.440 So exploring free speech and arguments and the skeptics movement 318 00:16:36.500 --> 00:16:41.759 and how we can apply that wisely in our current challenges. 319 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:43.409 So Chuck, you got a question for us? 320 00:16:43.419 --> 00:16:48.230 Yeah, we have several questions from our Patreon patrons who 321 00:16:48.330 --> 00:16:48.860 support us. 322 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:51.909 Of course. So they lead off this. There's not just 323 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:53.460 Patreon for this, but we lead. 324 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:55.419 Off with it. We lead off with our Patreon patrons, 325 00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:56.659 and we invite you. 326 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:58.399 They bought their way to the front of the list. 327 00:16:59.120 --> 00:17:01.500 That's just like the Titanic. 328 00:17:04.299 --> 00:17:05.980 Except the Titanic sank, Chuck. 329 00:17:06.019 --> 00:17:08.440 I hate to give you the news. God, that's not 330 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:11.180 a good analogy, then, is it? Yeah, okay. 331 00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:11.880 All right. 332 00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:15.680 So anyway, let's go with Robert Kernel, who says, to 333 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:20.230 assist in the death, of conspiracy theories, is it better 334 00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:23.910 to confront them or ignore them? Has there been any 335 00:17:23.970 --> 00:17:26.809 research on whether confronting these theories makes it more likely 336 00:17:26.849 --> 00:17:31.690 people will believe them because of belief reinforcement? Or does 337 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:37.539 confronting them give them credibility and help them spread? Wow, Robert, 338 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:41.039 I'm going to say that's a damn good question. 339 00:17:42.210 --> 00:17:43.200 All right, Michael, what do you got? 340 00:17:43.210 --> 00:17:45.089 Yeah, it is kind of the question of the day. Well, 341 00:17:45.109 --> 00:17:47.210 they're going to spread anyway, whether you ignore them or not. 342 00:17:47.730 --> 00:17:49.990 In the modern age, everybody is their own publisher with 343 00:17:50.019 --> 00:17:52.539 their own YouTube channel and so on. So that's not 344 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.220 a great strategy. On the other hand, you're not required 345 00:17:55.259 --> 00:17:58.240 to respond to everybody. I mean, we ignored the Flat 346 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:00.440 Earthers for a long time because, you know, the head 347 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:02.440 of it died back in 96 or whatever, and that 348 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:03.880 was the end of that. He was the last member. 349 00:18:04.220 --> 00:18:05.940 But then it kind of erupted, as you know, Neil, 350 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.500 a couple of years ago and kind of spread, went viral. 351 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:09.880 So then we thought, all right, I guess we need 352 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:11.869 to have an issue of skeptic. on how we know 353 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:14.130 the Earth is not flat and, you know, how does 354 00:18:14.170 --> 00:18:16.269 science work anyway? And we kind of used it as 355 00:18:16.289 --> 00:18:18.509 an excuse to talk about that. But, you know, if 356 00:18:18.529 --> 00:18:20.539 you ask the average person, how do you know the 357 00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:22.059 Earth is round? How do you know

it goes around 358 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:23.799 the sun and so forth? A lot of people can't 359 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.740 articulate that. So we thought, well, we'll just use that 360 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:29.539 as an excuse, something like that. We also kind of 361 00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:33.019 depends on the influence that the claim has. The conspiracy 362 00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:35.140 theory is are people talking about it? Do they care 363 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.450 about it? Do we need to provide some kind of 364 00:18:37.970 --> 00:18:41.059 response to the media and the public? And so that 365 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:43.700 also depends. So in terms of free speech, you know, 366 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:45.789 people should be free to say what they want, but 367 00:18:45.829 --> 00:18:49.470 I'm not required to enable their speech. So, you know, 368 00:18:49.509 --> 00:18:52.869 occasionally creationists or Holocaust deniers have tried to place ads 369 00:18:52.910 --> 00:18:55.769 and skeptic. I don't take them. But that's not a 370 00:18:56.009 --> 00:18:58.710 I'm not censoring them. They're free to publish their own 371 00:18:58.750 --> 00:19:01.950 newsletters and magazines and produce their own docs or whatever. 372 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:06.069 But that's a different kind of thing there. So maybe 373 00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:08.609 I hope that answers the question. Well, you are censoring 374 00:19:08.650 --> 00:19:12.390 them in your own mouthpiece. That is a kind of censorship. Well, 375 00:19:12.690 --> 00:19:14.890 in a way, though, I have to be selective. We 376 00:19:14.930 --> 00:19:17.450 can't talk about everything. So I picked the ones I 377 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:20.750 think are most important. Just like college campuses, you know, 378 00:19:21.230 --> 00:19:24.490 they invite maybe 12 public speakers to come to campus. 379 00:19:24.769 --> 00:19:26.549 All right. But there's a thousand to choose from. So 380 00:19:27.190 --> 00:19:29.859 in a way, that's a kind of a censorship, I suppose, 381 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.640 that you discriminate. But they're free to do whatever they want. 382 00:19:34.660 --> 00:19:35.779 Hmm. 383 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:41.369 I don't think you answered the question. Should you directly 384 00:19:41.470 --> 00:19:45.509 engage a conspiracy theorist on the hope or expectation that 385 00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:46.529 you will change their mind? 386 00:19:46.910 --> 00:19:47.559 Oh, I forgot about that. 387 00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:47.740 Yeah. 388 00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:50.380 So there was this idea a few years ago. so-called 389 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:54.200 backfire effect. That is by addressing a particular claim and 390 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.839 explaining why it's wrong, like climate denial, denial, you'll actually 391 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.319 just double the people will double down on their beliefs. 392 00:20:02.180 --> 00:20:02.819 Dig in their heels. 393 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:05.059 Yeah, dig in their heels. Now, the studies on that 394 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.339 have not been replicated. That is to say, it looks 395 00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:10.180 like people can change their mind if you present evidence 396 00:20:10.660 --> 00:20:13.769 in a particular way. One, in a very visual way, 397 00:20:13.789 --> 00:20:16.349 you know, pie charts, bar graphs, things that are easy 398 00:20:16.369 --> 00:20:19.589 to understand, not just piles of numbers in a table, but, 399 00:20:19.710 --> 00:20:22.450 you know, something that's visual. And two, you present in 400 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:27.259 a way that doesn't challenge the person's deepest moral beliefs, right? 401 00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:31.900 So the number... number one predictor of climate skepticism is 402 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:38.210 political position. But climate skeptics who tend to be conservative, 403 00:20:38.250 --> 00:20:40.849 they don't know anything more about climate science than the 404 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:44.650 climate believers, say Democrats or liberals. That is to say, 405 00:20:45.430 --> 00:20:48.369 knowledge about climate science does not predict who believes in 406 00:20:48.430 --> 00:20:52.769 it or accepts it. So the public expression of your 407 00:20:52.809 --> 00:20:55.890 skepticism or belief is more of a signal to your 408 00:20:55.950 --> 00:20:59.970 tribe I'm so conservative, I doubt that climate science business, right? 409 00:21:00.269 --> 00:21:02.190 Even if you don't know anything about it. Same thing 410 00:21:02.230 --> 00:21:07.589 with evolution. If you give Christians a choice between Darwin 411 00:21:07.609 --> 00:21:11.119 and Jesus, they're not picking Darwin, okay? Darwin is not 412 00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:14.079 going to be anybody's savior, right? So you have to 413 00:21:14.140 --> 00:21:17.019 take that off the table. Keep your savior, keep Jesus, 414 00:21:17.059 --> 00:21:20.539 keep your Christianity. Evolution was the way God created life 415 00:21:20.619 --> 00:21:22.480 or something like this. And then you take that off 416 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:24.869 the table. So they don't feel threatened. So those are 417 00:21:24.890 --> 00:21:27.009 the two things you can do to get around the 418 00:21:27.029 --> 00:21:27.690 backfire effect. 419 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:30.019 So the tactics, this is tactical. Yeah. 420 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:31.079 Strategies. Yeah. 421 00:21:31.180 --> 00:21:34.299 Okay. All right. So Chuck, what else you got? Okay. 422 00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:37.559 Uh, this one is from, um, who is this guy? 423 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:37.880 Chuck? 424 00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:40.710 Nice. Co-host of star talk radio. 425 00:21:42.150 --> 00:21:44.190 Are you a Patreon member? Indeed I am. 426 00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:44.410 Okay. 427 00:21:44.450 --> 00:21:49.779 Um, Has there ever been any studies done on the 428 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:53.069 psychological makeup of people who are prone to

believe in 429 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:54.119 conspiracy theories? 430 00:21:55.190 --> 00:21:57.390 Yeah, there's a fair amount of research on that now. 431 00:21:57.869 --> 00:22:00.430 First of all, the meme we hear of, you know, 432 00:22:00.450 --> 00:22:03.809 the conspiracy theorist is some overweight guy in his parents' bedroom, 433 00:22:03.869 --> 00:22:07.450 you know, with a tinfoil hat and an internet connection. 434 00:22:08.509 --> 00:22:11.690 You know, that's not the case. Really, most conspiracy theorists 435 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:14.920 are thoughtful, educated, and so on. It depends on the 436 00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:20.420 conspiracy theory, right? So... say politically, those that are in 437 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.460 power tend to be less conspiratorially minded than those out 438 00:22:23.500 --> 00:22:27.799 of power. So the losing party usually goes conspiracy bonkers 439 00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.740 after they lose. Those in power drop the conspiracy theories. Now, 440 00:22:31.769 --> 00:22:34.430 the current administration, current president seems to be an exception 441 00:22:34.450 --> 00:22:38.589 to that. He's still talking about the conspiracy against him 442 00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:40.880 in the election. It's like, dude, you won. Shut up. 443 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:46.299 oh it was rigged it's like uh you know you 444 00:22:46.339 --> 00:22:51.799 won right so um but there but there are some 445 00:22:51.819 --> 00:22:55.500 things uh you know like what's called global coherence that 446 00:22:55.539 --> 00:22:57.640 is the moment you tick the box for believing one 447 00:22:57.700 --> 00:23:01.859 conspiracy theory uh that you think princess diana was assassinated 448 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:05.160 you're more likely to believe that jfk was assassinated by 449 00:23:05.180 --> 00:23:08.829 a conspiracy and or in any number of the other 450 00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:12.339 popular 9-11 was an inside job and and so forth, 451 00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:16.799 that there's sort of a tendency to think somebody is 452 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:19.519 behind the scenes pulling the strings, and the moment you 453 00:23:19.539 --> 00:23:22.339 sort of go down that pathway, you think it happens everywhere. 454 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.980 Even within a particular conspiracy theory, that is, people that 455 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:28.619 are more likely to check the box that they think 456 00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:32.269 Princess Diana was murdered are also more likely to think 457 00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:35.769 she faked her death and is still alive somewhere. Well, 458 00:23:35.970 --> 00:23:38.589 they can't both be true. She can't be dead and 459 00:23:38.630 --> 00:23:39.809 alive at the same time, right? 460 00:23:40.170 --> 00:23:40.289 So. 461 00:23:42.059 --> 00:23:44.700 And also there's a bias that some people are more 462 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.680 inclined to that is the size of the cause should 463 00:23:47.720 -->

00:23:51.150 match the size of the effect. So the Holocaust was 464 00:23:51.369 --> 00:23:53.450 the worst thing that ever happened to a group of 465 00:23:53.490 --> 00:23:56.630 people committed by the Nazis, the worst regime in history. 466 00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:59.930 So you sort of get this match. But JFK, leader 467 00:23:59.950 --> 00:24:02.430 of the free world and the most powerful man on earth, 468 00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:06.470 assassinated by who? Lee Harvey Oswald, some lone nut? It 469 00:24:06.490 --> 00:24:08.470 doesn't match. So you've got to add the FBI and 470 00:24:08.490 --> 00:24:11.130 the CIA and the KGB and the Cubans and the mafia. 471 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:13.000 you know, to kind of make it match. Same thing 472 00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:17.140 with Princess Di, you know, cause of death, drunk driving, speeding, 473 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:19.440 no seatbelt, you know, tens of thousands of people die 474 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:21.599 of that every year. But princesses are not supposed to 475 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.460 die like that, right? So you got to have the 476 00:24:23.619 --> 00:24:26.309 MI5 and the MI6 and the royal family and the Arabs, 477 00:24:26.349 --> 00:24:29.380 and we're all in on it. And so 19 members, 478 00:24:29.809 --> 00:24:32.009 you know, 19 guys with box cutters, you know, brought 479 00:24:32.029 --> 00:24:34.150 down the World Trade Center building. I mean, come on, 480 00:24:34.190 --> 00:24:36.549 that's just, you know, Bush had to be involved in 481 00:24:36.589 --> 00:24:38.759 this group and that group. So you get some of that, 482 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.039 and some people are more inclined toward that kind of 483 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:42.200 reasoning than others. 484 00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:47.779 Is it because deep in our minds we want a 485 00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:54.579 full explanation? There's a need that's being served, a psychological 486 00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:59.130 need being served by the flesh that's on a conspiracy theory. 487 00:25:00.529 --> 00:25:05.470 Exactly right. And even scarier is the idea that nobody's 488 00:25:05.509 --> 00:25:08.569 in charge. You know, the idea that there's a cigarette 489 00:25:08.609 --> 00:25:11.369 smoking man behind the curtain and he's making all these 490 00:25:11.410 --> 00:25:15.690 things happen, wars and economic revolutions and so on. But 491 00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:19.210 the idea that actually there's nobody that runs the economy. 492 00:25:19.289 --> 00:25:22.450 The economy is just this sort of chaotic, unpredictable thing. 493 00:25:23.029 --> 00:25:26.009 That's kind of scary in a way. 494 00:25:26.049 --> 00:25:27.650 Wait, I got a question. 495 00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:28.259 Okay. 496 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:34.319 Isn't God the ultimate conspiracy theorist? I mean, people who 497 00:25:34.339 --> 00:25:36.660 believe in God, that's the ultimate conspiracy theorist. God is 498 00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:39.599 in charge

of all things. So here's the question. Are 499 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:45.500 religious people, if they're satisfied that God is operating, do 500 00:25:45.619 --> 00:25:50.000 they have any more or less susceptibility to other understandings 501 00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:52.160 of the world with regard to conspiracy? 502 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:56.559 I haven't seen any data on that, that religiosity is 503 00:25:56.619 --> 00:25:59.000 a predictor of conspiracy-mindedness. 504 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:01.440 Or not, or the opposite. Or the opposite, yes. Religious 505 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.140 people are less, correct me if I'm wrong, are less 506 00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:10.839 represented among astrologers and other sort of New Age humans. 507 00:26:10.859 --> 00:26:14.069 Yes, that may be a good study for our research 508 00:26:14.660 --> 00:26:15.529 team at Skeptic. 509 00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:16.769 Okay, well, get to it. 510 00:26:17.230 --> 00:26:19.630 I'm going to do this the moment we hang up here. 511 00:26:20.130 --> 00:26:23.470 But actually, Neil, you got me thinking there. In a way, 512 00:26:23.490 --> 00:26:27.490 I mean, the common line that religious people use is 513 00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:29.400 everything happens for a reason. 514 00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:29.660 Reason. 515 00:26:30.890 --> 00:26:32.710 Now, it's not just Christians. I mean, there's a lot 516 00:26:32.750 --> 00:26:36.910 of like Deepak Chopra following Buddhists, Western Buddhists that think, 517 00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:40.720 you know, there's some kind of cosmic force that balances things. 518 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:43.140 And if something bad happens over here, something good happens 519 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:43.500 over there. 520 00:26:43.619 --> 00:26:45.420 That's the ultimate conspiracy theory. 521 00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:47.539 That is a kind of conspiracy theory. 522 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:47.680 Yeah. 523 00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:49.900 I hadn't really thought of it that way. Yeah. 524 00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:53.180 Interesting. Chuck, give me some more. 525 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.579 All right, here we go. This is Alan DeMoss. Says, 526 00:26:57.619 --> 00:26:59.359 first of all, I love the show. My question is, 527 00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:02.880 Where is the healthy line between believing in some grand 528 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:10.359 conspiracy and being a very cautious skeptic? And is it 529 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:14.579 for some, not for you, of course, or Neil, but 530 00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:18.079 is it for some, perhaps, the beginning of the slippery slope? 531 00:27:18.220 --> 00:27:20.019 I start off as a skeptic, and then before you 532 00:27:20.039 --> 00:27:22.900 know it, I don't believe anything. This is all BS! 533 00:27:23.420 --> 00:27:23.940 Mm-hmm. 534 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:27.900 Yeah, Carl Sagan had a great line that I quoted 535 00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.069 in my first book, Why People Believe We're Things, on 536 00:27:30.660

--> 00:27:34.509 the kind of healthy skepticism, that finding the rub between 537 00:27:34.569 --> 00:27:37.630 being open-minded enough to accept radical new ideas, but not 538 00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:39.930 so open-minded that your brains fall out and you believe 539 00:27:39.970 --> 00:27:42.190 every wacky thing that comes down the pike. And it's 540 00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:45.170 hard to know where that line is, essentially the line 541 00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:49.069 of demarcation between science and pseudoscience, say. And it depends 542 00:27:49.269 --> 00:27:52.430 on the particular area. So since we're talking about conspiracy theories, 543 00:27:53.049 --> 00:27:55.509 You know, the bigger it is, the grander it is, 544 00:27:55.569 --> 00:27:57.970 the less likely the theory is to be true. Again, 545 00:27:59.220 --> 00:28:03.740 conspiracies like Volkswagen cheating the emission standards or pharmaceutical companies 546 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.319 cheating the FDA regulations, you know, those are real conspiracies, 547 00:28:07.339 --> 00:28:09.779 but they're very narrow and targeted. Like, we know why 548 00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:11.640 they're doing it, to make money, you know, in this 549 00:28:11.740 --> 00:28:14.390 one little area. You know, but the moment you scale up, 550 00:28:14.410 --> 00:28:18.859 you know, world domination, it's like, okay, you know. Probably not. 551 00:28:19.140 --> 00:28:21.279 No, but you need the Cubans and the Chinese and 552 00:28:21.339 --> 00:28:22.099 the North Koreans. 553 00:28:23.660 --> 00:28:24.960 Just keep adding them in there, right? 554 00:28:24.980 --> 00:28:25.539 You got nothing. 555 00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:29.450 That's right. And the more people that have to be involved, right? 556 00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:32.910 Because most people are fairly incompetent. And they bumble and 557 00:28:32.950 --> 00:28:36.950 stumble their way through jobs. And the idea that you've 558 00:28:37.349 --> 00:28:39.609 cracked the perfect team to go out there and pull 559 00:28:39.650 --> 00:28:41.960 this off. I mean, Nixon had a pretty good team 560 00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:45.180 of the Watergate burglars, right? I mean, these were G-men. 561 00:28:45.740 --> 00:28:46.119 You know, G. 562 00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:48.599 Gordon Liddy. I mean, come on. And they couldn't even 563 00:28:48.859 --> 00:28:52.569 burgle an office without getting caught, right? That's kind of 564 00:28:52.589 --> 00:28:54.109 how things normally go. 565 00:28:54.130 --> 00:28:58.829 Plus, now a billion photos are uplifted to the Internet 566 00:28:58.849 --> 00:29:02.089 every day. You'd have pictures of stuff. Even, you know, 567 00:29:02.130 --> 00:29:05.569 the stockpiled aliens in Area 51. Somebody's sneaking a photo 568 00:29:05.690 --> 00:29:07.609 out on their Instagram. You know that. 569 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:11.319 That's right. Actually, I use the WikiLeaks as an example 570 00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.789 of the absence of evidence is evidence of absence. That 571 00:29:14.849 --> 00:29:19.450 is to say, the ufologists or the 9-11 truthers would 572 00:29:19.470 --> 00:29:21.789 always say, well, of course we don't have direct evidence, Shermer. 573 00:29:21.809 --> 00:29:26.390 It's a secret. It's classified. And it's like, OK, here 574 00:29:26.410 --> 00:29:30.390 we have 10 million documents that are classified, leaked by WikiLeaks. 575 00:29:30.470 --> 00:29:34.319 There's nothing in there about Roswell, alien bodies at Area 51, 576 00:29:34.309 --> 00:29:38.930 some memo from Bush telling somebody to plant the explosive 577 00:29:38.970 --> 00:29:40.380 devices in the World Trade Center. 578 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:42.000 Makes sense. 579 00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:44.559 Wow. What it is. We're going to take another break, 580 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:46.579 and when we come back, our third and final segment, 581 00:29:47.059 --> 00:29:54.329 Conspiracy in the Coronavirus, on StarTalk. We're back. StarTalk. Chuck Nice. 582 00:29:54.730 --> 00:29:57.549 Michael Shermer. Mike, I've known you for a really long time. 583 00:29:57.730 --> 00:29:58.109 I'm just. 584 00:29:59.809 --> 00:30:04.349 Pleased to have this friendship that goes back decades, that 585 00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:08.589 we're kind of fighting for the same causes, but differently. 586 00:30:08.789 --> 00:30:11.089 I mean, I'm not in your face because I know 587 00:30:11.109 --> 00:30:11.890 you don't need me. 588 00:30:13.990 --> 00:30:14.789 I like your face. 589 00:30:16.470 --> 00:30:19.460 You got this. I just want you to know that 590 00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:23.680 I'm a huge supporter of your work and your life's direction. 591 00:30:24.190 --> 00:30:25.650 that you've taken it. So I just want to put 592 00:30:25.670 --> 00:30:26.049 that out there. 593 00:30:26.069 --> 00:30:29.009 Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Operators are standing by 594 00:30:29.049 --> 00:30:30.630 to take your donation. 595 00:30:30.730 --> 00:30:32.490 No, I'm just kidding. 596 00:30:34.230 --> 00:30:37.079 So Chuck, give me some more questions. Well, let me 597 00:30:37.099 --> 00:30:39.660 just comment. It takes all of us working on this together. 598 00:30:40.900 --> 00:30:44.339 Scientists from all fields pushing back in their areas. All 599 00:30:44.380 --> 00:30:46.640 we are is kind of a collective body that says, 600 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.359 here's all the different claims and here's the experts in that. 601 00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:54.029 So we're all working to the same really enlightenment idea 602 00:30:54.109 --> 00:30:56.809 that there is a truth to be known, truth of 603 00:30:56.849 --> 00:30:58.759 the small t, and that science is the best tool 604 00:30:58.779 --> 00:30:59.450 we have to get there. 605 00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:03.579 Nice. All right, Chuck, keep it going. 606 00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:09.420 All right. Let's go to Magdalena Grupa. And Magdalena says, 607 00:31:09.740 --> 00:31:13.589

thank you for sparking joy and curiosity of science. In 608 00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:18.529 my 40s, could you please tell me how to sell 609 00:31:18.690 --> 00:31:22.680 the idea of skepticism to people successfully? to get them 610 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:27.200 excited about being skeptical. I find it immensely hard not 611 00:31:27.259 --> 00:31:33.589 to sound condescending or sarcastic when I try. Well, Magdalena, 612 00:31:33.630 --> 00:31:34.609 maybe it's you. 613 00:31:38.009 --> 00:31:39.930 No, but Michael, you gotta admit, there are a lot 614 00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:44.069 of skeptics in the community that are just assholes. And 615 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:47.200 it's like, I know more than you. I mean, as 616 00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:50.599 an educator, it hurts me to watch that exchange because- 617 00:31:51.410 --> 00:31:54.819 I care what someone knows and doesn't know, and I 618 00:31:55.059 --> 00:32:01.920 find ways that I can communicate, not just talk down 619 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:04.099 to them. And you know such folks are in the 620 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:05.940 skeptics community. What do you do about that? 621 00:32:06.829 --> 00:32:11.890 Yes, well, you tell them, don't be a dick. But 622 00:32:12.849 --> 00:32:14.450 even that. 623 00:32:14.509 --> 00:32:17.890 That was the title of a speech given by our 624 00:32:17.950 --> 00:32:21.720 friend and colleague, The bad astronomer, Phil Plait. 625 00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:22.539 Yeah, that's right. 626 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.099 He gave a whole speech, don't be a dick. To skeptics. 627 00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:28.579 And I think that was fairly well received, although I 628 00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.069 know he got some pushback. But Carl made that point 629 00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:33.230 back in the 90s. I think it was a passage 630 00:32:33.250 --> 00:32:36.950 maybe from Demon Haunted World where he said something like, 631 00:32:37.009 --> 00:32:40.670 it's easy to be condescending to people. I feel the 632 00:32:40.750 --> 00:32:43.210 urge myself bubble up and I have to kind of 633 00:32:43.230 --> 00:32:46.069 suppress it. We should all suppress it. And just talk 634 00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:50.349 about the positive aspects of what we know Acknowledge that 635 00:32:50.369 --> 00:32:54.130 the other person, you know, is intelligent, thoughtful, or else 636 00:32:54.170 --> 00:32:56.329 they're not going to listen to you. You know, be respectful. 637 00:32:56.630 --> 00:33:00.109 There's certain kind of basic rules of engagement or conversation. 638 00:33:00.130 --> 00:33:02.690 By the way, that point of view is deeply imbued 639 00:33:02.990 --> 00:33:08.519 within Andrewian, who was co-writer of all three Cosmoses. So 640 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:13.180 that at every turn where we talk about some crazy 641 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.079 idea that people have, the urge to just say this 642 00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.980 is just preposterous, that urge is so strong. 643 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:19.440 Yeah. 644 00:33:19.750 --> 00:33:23.369 But but then, you know, you can't and shouldn't go there. Otherwise, 645 00:33:23.410 --> 00:33:26.410 you just lost your audience. So you've got to find 646 00:33:26.430 --> 00:33:30.170 a way that it sort of organically reaches them so 647 00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:33.579 that they feel like that you care about who they 648 00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:35.220 are and how they think and where they came from 649 00:33:35.240 --> 00:33:36.880 and that you're going to take them to a new place. 650 00:33:37.299 --> 00:33:40.279 Yeah, that's right. I'm fine to say no one in 651 00:33:40.299 --> 00:33:42.119 the history of the world has ever joined a cult. 652 00:33:42.869 --> 00:33:44.410 you know, they join a group that they think is 653 00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:46.390 good and they just get sucked down the rabbit hole 654 00:33:46.450 --> 00:33:48.910 and that, you know, only outsiders can kind of assess that. 655 00:33:48.930 --> 00:33:50.569 But if you tell people, you know, you're in a cult, 656 00:33:50.589 --> 00:33:52.859 you know, that's not what they think is going on. And, 657 00:33:53.460 --> 00:33:57.279 and analogously, I say, no one's ever in the history 658 00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.319 of the world has never been a pseudoscientist who goes 659 00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:01.380 down to a pseudo lab to collect pseudo facts to 660 00:34:01.400 --> 00:34:04.480 test the pseudo theory, right? You know, they think they're 661 00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:06.960 doing something. And so you have to address it at 662 00:34:07.009 --> 00:34:09.250 that level. Like, you know, what, why is it you 663 00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:11.389 think that that's the case? I'm, I know you get 664 00:34:11.429 --> 00:34:14.219 these what I call theories of everything. Einstein was wrong 665 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.159 and Newton was wrong and Hawking was wrong and I've 666 00:34:16.179 --> 00:34:19.679 worked out this new theory of the universe in my garage. Okay, 667 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:22.380 you can't just say, you know what, you're the 20th 668 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.639 crazy person this week to send me one of these 669 00:34:24.659 --> 00:34:27.880 because that just hurts their feelings. They don't think that 670 00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:31.659 that's what they're doing. So you have to at least listen. 671 00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:33.760 I mean, if you're going to engage with them, the 672 00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:35.880 rules of conversation, listen to what somebody has to say, 673 00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:38.440 let them finish their sentence. See if you can repeat 674 00:34:38.500 --> 00:34:40.969 back to them what they just said, the kind of 675 00:34:41.010 --> 00:34:44.469 steel manning rather than straw manning. Say it in a 676 00:34:44.510 --> 00:34:47.030 way that they would go, yeah, yeah, that is what 677 00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:49.590 I'm arguing. Or they're more likely to go, no, no, no, 678

00:34:50.210 --> 00:34:51.909 that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is, 679 00:34:52.829 --> 00:34:55.090 now maybe they did mean that and they realized how 680 00:34:55.269 --> 00:34:57.840 nutty it sounds when you say it, so they correct it. 681 00:34:57.889 --> 00:35:01.000 But that's also good, right? Conversation is about adjusting our 682 00:35:01.059 --> 00:35:03.139 ideas and exchanging ideas and so on. 683 00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:06.510 So And I was honored, Michael, that you had invited 684 00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:09.719 me onto your podcast for my last book, which was 685 00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:12.820 Letters from an Astrophysicist. About a third of them I'm 686 00:35:13.059 --> 00:35:18.500 carefully communicating with. Some of them were conspiracy theorists. There's 687 00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:22.139 a flat earther in there and a Bigfoot person. And 688 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:25.630 so I was honored that you saw that in me. 689 00:35:26.070 --> 00:35:27.670 Enough to have me as a guest on your podcast. 690 00:35:27.809 --> 00:35:31.090 Oh, yeah. No, that kind of exchange I think is 691 00:35:31.150 --> 00:35:34.010 super fascinating. I love getting those kind of letters because 692 00:35:34.989 --> 00:35:38.030 it's interesting to engage with them and just ask them, 693 00:35:38.610 --> 00:35:40.469 how did you come to this belief? Or what makes 694 00:35:40.489 --> 00:35:43.210 you think that's true? Or what would it take to 695 00:35:43.250 --> 00:35:46.969 change your mind? It's just super interesting to think about 696 00:35:47.010 --> 00:35:49.840 the psychology of why people believe what they believe. And 697 00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:52.639 that's different from, say, refuting their arguments or whatever. Those 698 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:53.880 are kind of two different levels. 699 00:35:54.460 --> 00:35:55.420 All right, Chuck, what else you got? 700 00:35:55.909 --> 00:36:01.530 Okay, back to our Corona, our Coronaverse that we live in. 701 00:36:01.969 --> 00:36:06.590 Josh V says, to mask or not to mask? That 702 00:36:06.650 --> 00:36:10.389 is the question. Why did the CDC change their advice 703 00:36:10.449 --> 00:36:13.429 about masks halfway through the pandemic? Does this type of 704 00:36:13.449 --> 00:36:19.500 flip-flop fuel conspiracy theories or at least increase distrust in authority? 705 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:20.559 Nice one. 706 00:36:20.900 --> 00:36:23.500 Yeah, yeah, it certainly can. I remember when that happened. 707 00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.019 Part of the reason they were saying no masks was 708 00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:29.780 at first they were worried about the supply chain for 709 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:32.429 health care workers to have enough masks. And if everybody 710 00:36:32.869 --> 00:36:34.710 made a run on masks, there wouldn't be enough for 711 00:36:34.750 --> 00:36:36.929 the health care workers. I think that was the first reason. 712 00:36:37.949 --> 00:36:38.929 As I remember it as well. 713 00:36:39.289 --> 00:36:41.730 Yeah, they kind of masked it by saying, well, maybe 714 00:36:41.750 --> 00:36:44.760 you don't need it. And then the science changed. I 715 00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:46.340 don't think the science ever really changed. I think it 716 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:49.960 was more of a supply chain concern. Um, and you know, 717 00:36:49.980 --> 00:36:53.260 we're still, again, here we are the day we're recording. 718 00:36:53.300 --> 00:36:55.300 We still don't know a hundred percent about, you know, 719 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:57.090 how many feet should you be apart from, you know, 720 00:36:57.139 --> 00:36:58.829 six feet where they come up with that number. Maybe 721 00:36:58.849 --> 00:37:01.289 it's seven, maybe it's three, who knows? You know, still 722 00:37:01.309 --> 00:37:03.130 a lot of that. So we're, you know, there's going 723 00:37:03.150 --> 00:37:04.949 to be a lot of hindsight bias in the next 724 00:37:05.130 --> 00:37:09.230 say decade of, you know, pundits, uh, second guessing everything 725 00:37:09.269 --> 00:37:12.369 we did. You know, I saw some numbers today on Germany. 726 00:37:12.409 --> 00:37:14.719 It looks like they, they, they timed it just about 727 00:37:14.780 --> 00:37:17.280 right of when to shut down the economy and they're 728 00:37:17.300 --> 00:37:20.610 starting to reopen now. But they're all experiments. Different nations 729 00:37:20.690 --> 00:37:23.610 trying different things. Different states within the United States trying 730 00:37:23.630 --> 00:37:27.269 different things. This is good. Experimentation is how we get 731 00:37:27.309 --> 00:37:27.809 to the truth. 732 00:37:28.730 --> 00:37:35.960 Yeah, but that's not the fluctuating frontier of what is 733 00:37:36.039 --> 00:37:40.420 experimentally true. It's not something that's taught in school. You 734 00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:43.119 think of science as a known thing. And if a 735 00:37:43.139 --> 00:37:46.719 scientist says something different tomorrow than today, all of a sudden... 736 00:37:47.210 --> 00:37:52.949 people feel justified to discount the entire source of this information. Yeah. 737 00:37:52.969 --> 00:37:54.469 The whole source gets canceled, right? 738 00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:58.389 That's right, yeah. Yeah, the problem with teaching science as 739 00:37:58.429 --> 00:38:02.110 just a body of facts is too delimiting. It's really 740 00:38:02.170 --> 00:38:04.929 a method. It's just a way of asking questions about 741 00:38:04.949 --> 00:38:06.760 the world and seeing what kind of answers you can 742 00:38:06.780 --> 00:38:07.800 get that are reliable. 743 00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:14.480 So if we were to perhaps just adjust the perspective 744 00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:20.090 behind science what the way we're teaching science and the 745 00:38:20.110 --> 00:38:24.360 way it's received more importantly, focus more on discovery. 746 00:38:25.059 --> 00:38:25.739 Yeah. Yeah. 747 00:38:26.119 -->

00:38:29.280 See, if it's about, if it's all about discovery, then 748 00:38:29.320 --> 00:38:33.619 it's okay for things to change. We've discovered, like for instance, 749 00:38:33.940 --> 00:38:37.139 we thought it was all about surfaces. We now discovered 750 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.429 that it is not that. Yeah. You still got to 751 00:38:39.449 --> 00:38:42.070 be concerned about surfaces, but we also now must be 752 00:38:42.190 --> 00:38:46.300 equally concerned about our exchange with one another and when 753 00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:50.260 it comes to speaking and being in our presence and distancing. So, 754 00:38:50.579 --> 00:38:54.420 but I think what happens is that this definitive and 755 00:38:54.480 --> 00:38:59.860 these declarative nature of arguments being made is what causes 756 00:38:59.929 --> 00:39:01.630 people to go, well, then you don't know what the 757 00:39:01.670 --> 00:39:05.570 hell you're talking about. I'm not listening. You don't know 758 00:39:05.590 --> 00:39:06.809 what the hell you're talking about. 759 00:39:07.090 --> 00:39:10.349 Chuck for Surgeon General. I vote Chuck for Surgeon General. 760 00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:10.650 Yeah. 761 00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:15.099 Yeah, that's right. It would be better if we thought 762 00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:19.159 of failures as actual successes. We succeeded in finding out 763 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:21.750 the cause of it is not this, this, this, and this, 764 00:39:21.750 --> 00:39:23.849 and this. Those are successes, actually. 765 00:39:23.849 --> 00:39:26.190 And this is the this is the famous mantra in, 766 00:39:26.789 --> 00:39:30.659 in space exploration. It's if a rocket explodes on the 767 00:39:30.679 --> 00:39:33.599 launch pad and you say it's a failure. No, it 768 00:39:33.699 --> 00:39:39.980 is an experiment. Rich in data for the next experiment. 769 00:39:41.619 --> 00:39:44.280 That's funny. I mean, not that the rocket blew up. 770 00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:44.980 That's not funny. 771 00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:46.619 No, no. 772 00:39:46.699 --> 00:39:47.719 The rich in data part is funny. 773 00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:48.119 It could. 774 00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:49.570 Be. 775 00:39:49.579 --> 00:39:53.079 Right, right. Chuck, time for like maybe one or two more. 776 00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:54.780 Okay. All right. Here we go. 777 00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:56.300 All right. 778 00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.139 This is Jessica Bennett, and she wants to know, who 779 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:01.530 is controlling the massive amount of Twitter bots that are 780 00:40:01.650 --> 00:40:06.320 pushing for no mask and pushing for to reopen America. 781 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:08.619 That's something I didn't know about. 782 00:40:10.409 --> 00:40:14.070 We should ask Jack about that, the guy that runs Twitter. 783 00:40:14.090 --> 00:40:14.989 Oh yeah, Jack Dorsey. 784 00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:18.650 Yeah, because what do I know? I mean, maybe they're 785 00:40:18.670 --> 00:40:21.750 Russian bots or Chinese bots or whatever. I'm encouraged by 786 00:40:21.809 --> 00:40:26.110 some recent research by Hugo Mercier, the cognitive scientist, about 787 00:40:26.630 --> 00:40:29.389 the influence of those kind of bots on, say, the 788 00:40:29.389 --> 00:40:32.519 2016 election. He thinks that the influence was negligible, if 789 00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:36.670 at all, that people were pretty much already made up 790 00:40:36.710 --> 00:40:41.429 their minds. And the funny story is that if you 791 00:40:41.449 --> 00:40:43.840 think Hillary is running a pedophile ring out of a 792 00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:46.840 pizzeria and I correct you on that, you're not likely 793 00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:50.949 to vote for Hillary. You're probably inclined to kind of 794 00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:53.230 not be a big fan of hers anyway. 795 00:40:53.840 --> 00:40:56.480 Oh, she's not selling babies. I'll vote for her now. 796 00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.940 Exactly. 797 00:41:00.099 --> 00:41:03.039 Did we answer that question? What's the next one? 798 00:41:03.059 --> 00:41:09.340 Yeah, here's the next one. Sven Bjorn Bird wants to 799 00:41:09.929 --> 00:41:10.840 know this. 800 00:41:10.949 --> 00:41:12.090 We've had his questions before. 801 00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:15.230 Sven Bjorn. Sven Bjorn is back again. 802 00:41:16.769 --> 00:41:18.869 And why aren't you telling me what platforms these are 803 00:41:18.889 --> 00:41:20.710 coming from? I'm leaving out that information. 804 00:41:21.329 --> 00:41:26.530 It's not here. So how can you say theories are 805 00:41:26.590 --> 00:41:35.019 conspiracies if China is not being transparent? So, you know, 806 00:41:35.139 --> 00:41:37.760 and I think this is this is really emblematic of 807 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:42.139 a big problem. And that is you have one fact. 808 00:41:43.099 --> 00:41:48.010 that actually leads and supports a conspiracy, but then that 809 00:41:48.250 --> 00:41:52.530 mushrooms into these thousands of things that are attached to it. 810 00:41:54.210 --> 00:41:56.409 Yeah, that's right. So this is the problem with authoritarian 811 00:41:56.429 --> 00:42:00.099 regimes not being up front. They may be transparent and 812 00:42:00.139 --> 00:42:02.539 honest now, but how do we know? Because they've lied 813 00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:05.179 so many times. It's a little bit like, that's why 814 00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.800 it's called the Chernobyl of China, because we know the 815 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.380 Soviets were, it took them like, I don't know, a 816 00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:13.239 week and a half until radiation started falling over Sweden 817 00:42:13.260 --> 00:42:16.519 and Norway, that they've said, well, I guess we should 818 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:20.159 be more upfront about what actually happened at Chernobyl. That's 819 00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:23.030 the problem. So if you lie and then you say, well, 820 00:42:23.070 --> 00:42:25.309 this time I'm telling

the truth, how do we know? 821 00:42:26.230 --> 00:42:30.349 That fuels conspiracism, of course, because that's part of conspiracy theories, 822 00:42:30.389 --> 00:42:33.269 is that somebody is behind the scenes doing something wrong, 823 00:42:33.550 --> 00:42:36.289 and of course they're going to lie about it. That's true. 824 00:42:37.309 --> 00:42:42.159 So there's a good reason to be skeptical or conspiratorial. 825 00:42:42.780 --> 00:42:45.960 So, but what it means is, in the case of China, then, 826 00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:48.530 like you said, even if they are telling the truth, 827 00:42:49.090 --> 00:42:51.789 you don't know even if that is true because there's 828 00:42:51.809 --> 00:42:53.650 the room that it could be a lie. 829 00:42:54.429 --> 00:42:56.710 Or a false, yeah, it could be a false, you know, 830 00:42:56.769 --> 00:42:57.769 disinformation campaign. 831 00:42:57.789 --> 00:42:59.510 Disinformation, right. 832 00:43:00.099 --> 00:43:04.179 Well, in the words of Xi Jinping, you can't handle 833 00:43:04.199 --> 00:43:04.920 the truth. 834 00:43:06.090 --> 00:43:07.130 Was that who said that? 835 00:43:07.150 --> 00:43:08.969 I was wondering where that came from. 836 00:43:09.150 --> 00:43:11.869 I'm pretty sure it was she. 837 00:43:15.519 --> 00:43:17.400 So, Mike, I want to spend the last couple of minutes. 838 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:20.099 Could you give me some of the more outlandish, by 839 00:43:20.139 --> 00:43:24.250 your judgment, conspiracy theories regarding the coronavirus? I mean, like 840 00:43:24.269 --> 00:43:24.789 top three. 841 00:43:24.929 --> 00:43:28.550 Yeah, top three. Well, you know, 5G, Bill Gates. uh, 842 00:43:28.769 --> 00:43:31.650 bioweapon is, bioweapon is not quite as crazy, but, but 843 00:43:31.750 --> 00:43:33.909 we now know from the genetic analysis that it was 844 00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:38.480 not engineered. It's a bat virus. Um, you know, that, uh, 845 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:41.400 you know, the, of course the, the anti-vaxxers were all 846 00:43:41.460 --> 00:43:43.739 over this, very predictable. They jump on anything like this. 847 00:43:44.320 --> 00:43:46.639 We've been tracking them for a quarter century. Every time 848 00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:50.570 something like this happens, there's the anti-vaxxers. And, uh, so that, 849 00:43:50.619 --> 00:43:55.239 you know, that, that's not great, just crazy. It's, dangerous because, 850 00:43:55.260 --> 00:43:57.389 you know, vaccines are one of the best things we've 851 00:43:57.570 --> 00:44:02.329 ever invented for saving human lives. And, you know, so 852 00:44:02.369 --> 00:44:07.829 that's a disturbing one, not just crazy, but dangerous. 853 00:44:08.070 --> 00:44:09.309 What would anti-vaxxers say? 854 00:44:10.130 --> 00:44:14.840 Oh, that either the government, you know, or the pharmaceutical companies, 855 00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:19.880 big pharma, are using the coronavirus pandemic as a scare 856 00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:23.510 tactic to force people to vaccinate. And then from there 857 00:44:23.530 --> 00:44:25.690 you go to they're going to chip us all so 858 00:44:25.710 --> 00:44:30.289 they can track us or nanobot us and then track us. 859 00:44:31.030 --> 00:44:37.119 Even the tracking and tracing, this idea is part of 860 00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:40.760 that kind of new world order conspiracy theory that goes 861 00:44:40.820 --> 00:44:43.639 back to the 1980s. And in a way, if you 862 00:44:43.659 --> 00:44:47.500 think about it, we are all being tracked. We are 863 00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:50.699 already chipped. You have a smartphone in your pocket that 864 00:44:50.739 --> 00:44:53.059 has chips in it and somebody knows where you are 865 00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:56.570 and maybe who you're talking to and where you're shopping 866 00:44:56.659 --> 00:44:58.110 and so on and so forth. In a way, this 867 00:44:58.119 --> 00:45:01.510 has kind of happened, but we voluntarily did it. And 868 00:45:01.590 --> 00:45:03.650 it's not big pharma and it's not big government. It's, 869 00:45:03.929 --> 00:45:04.630 you know, big tech. 870 00:45:05.389 --> 00:45:09.969 Walked right into it. And then what about the conspiracy 871 00:45:10.329 --> 00:45:13.010 that it was, maybe it's not a conspiracy or cover-up, 872 00:45:13.510 --> 00:45:16.949 that it was a lab-leaked Yeah. 873 00:45:17.130 --> 00:45:25.889 So, you know, Nature Medicine Journal published the genome analysis 874 00:45:26.110 --> 00:45:31.119 of the novel coronavirus and that it is like 98.5% 875 00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:35.139 similar to a bat coronavirus. Remember, coronaviruses are very common. 876 00:45:35.179 --> 00:45:37.400 You know, a third of all common colds are coronaviruses. 877 00:45:37.420 --> 00:45:41.739 The others are rhinoviruses and one other. It makes sense. 878 00:45:41.989 --> 00:45:46.260 Bats are mammals. They're very susceptible to respiratory diseases. They 879 00:45:46.300 --> 00:45:50.019 live in giant populations. There's this cave in Texas with 880 00:45:50.059 --> 00:45:54.800 like 20 million members. It's the city of Mexico. They 881 00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.199 get these kind of pandemic spreads all the time. It 882 00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.960 kind of makes sense. Wet market in China. 883 00:46:00.820 --> 00:46:03.769 Wait, so bats don't social distance? 884 00:46:03.789 --> 00:46:07.670 They don't. They hang upside down right next to each other. 885 00:46:08.590 --> 00:46:09.889 That's what makes it kind of spooky. 886 00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.519 That'd make a cute comic, bats social distancing. 887 00:46:15.980 --> 00:46:17.599 I don't want to get a human virus. 888 00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:23.400 Wash your wings for 20 seconds. 889 00:46:24.179 --> 00:46:28.400 But it is true that Wuhan is the site of 890 00:46:28.579 --> 00:46:30.699 an infectious disease research center? 891 00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.219 That's right. And there are bioweapons labs around the world. And, 892 00:46:34.300 --> 00:46:39.420 you know, twice during the Cold War, The Russian bioweapons 893 00:46:39.500 --> 00:46:41.679 labs had a leak. One was, I think, a fire 894 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.820 and the other one was an accidental leak. And so, 895 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:47.500 you know, again, it's not completely crazy to ask the 896 00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:50.199 question or to explore the idea. But I think that 897 00:46:50.300 --> 00:46:51.019 one's answered now. 898 00:46:51.320 --> 00:46:53.780 So, Chuck, Michael, we are out of time. But this 899 00:46:53.800 --> 00:46:56.860 has been highly illuminating. Michael, it's always great to talk 900 00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.480 to you. And your new book, I think, just released. 901 00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:03.420 Just in time for the coronavirus, because you knew you 902 00:47:03.440 --> 00:47:05.519 were planning this. In fact, you're the one who caused 903 00:47:05.539 --> 00:47:06.179 the coronavirus. 904 00:47:06.500 --> 00:47:08.539 I'm behind it. As soon as we hang up, I'm 905 00:47:08.579 --> 00:47:10.320 going back into my bioweapons lab. 906 00:47:12.619 --> 00:47:16.980 Giving the devil his due, reflections of a scientific humanist, 907 00:47:17.059 --> 00:47:20.840 which you are. So, Michael, always good to have you. 908 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:23.980 Don't be a stranger. Chuck, love you, man. 909 00:47:24.139 --> 00:47:24.739 Love you too, man. 910 00:47:25.579 --> 00:47:25.760 Yeah. 911 00:47:25.780 --> 00:47:26.559 All right, gentlemen. 912 00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:31.340 Thank you. This has been StarTalk Cosmic Queries. Yet another 913 00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:36.869 coronavirus edition. This one on conspiracy theories. As always, I 914 00:47:36.929 --> 00:47:38.469 bid you to keep looking up.