บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Space Force_ A New Domain with Neil deGrasse Tyson

00:04:05.300 I liked about that episode was Neil got off the 78 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:07.639 plane in the beginning of the episode. He had on 79 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.759 like a jacket, it was kind of open. That was cool. Yeah, yeah, 80 00:04:10.780 --> 00:04:15.060 I was kind of close. Hello, Scarford. Hey, what's happening, Greenland? 81 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:15.520 What's going on? 82 00:04:15.539 --> 00:04:17.850 I got this. I got this. By the end of 83 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:22.670 the episode, Neil, you couldn't see his face. He had 84 00:04:22.990 --> 00:04:25.569 on four parkas. He had on four parkas. 85 00:04:27.069 --> 00:04:29.610 And Chuck, I don't think you could resist the statement. 86 00:04:30.740 --> 00:04:33.180 why there are no black people in Greenland. 87 00:04:34.019 --> 00:04:36.240 Let me tell you something. There was not one brother. 88 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:40.959 Not one brother in Greenland. And Neil showed up and 89 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:43.699 they were like, oh, wow, what are you doing here? 90 00:04:45.699 --> 00:04:47.740 Well, at that Tool Air Force Base in the top 91 00:04:47.779 --> 00:04:51.300 of the world, they monitor satellites and missile threats and 92 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:53.990 anything from space that could be coming over the pole. 93 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.870 And now that is under the auspices of the Space Force. 94 00:04:58.370 --> 00:05:00.290 And we're going to find out more but how that 95 00:05:00.329 --> 00:05:04.430 works from General Burt later in the show. But right now, Charles, 96 00:05:04.449 --> 00:05:05.970 I want to get some physics out of the way 97 00:05:05.990 --> 00:05:10.290 before we break into that second segment. You know, we 98 00:05:10.310 --> 00:05:13.029 can think of ways you might destroy a satellite if 99 00:05:13.069 --> 00:05:18.870 there's any kind of military conflict on orbit. And something 100 00:05:18.889 --> 00:05:22.649 that shows up in a lot of sci-fi stories, even 101 00:05:22.810 --> 00:05:26.009 movies that are not sci-fi, just fi, okay. 102 00:05:26.389 --> 00:05:26.620 Is the EMP. 103 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:31.579 The electromagnetic pulse. 104 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:37.199 The electromagnetic pulse. Now, that made a cameo in Ocean's Eleven. 105 00:05:37.420 --> 00:05:39.079 You might remember that. Okay. 106 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:41.920 It was an EMP that took out the power grid 107 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:48.300 in Las Vegas when they robbed the safe. Also, there 108 00:05:48.339 --> 00:05:50.259 was an EMP in The Matrix. 109 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:50.899 The Matrix. 110 00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:51.279 Yes. 111 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.079 Of course. 112 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:52.459 Okay. 113 00:05:52.480 --> 00:05:53.360 The Nebuchadnezzar. 114 00:05:53.740 --> 00:05:56.939 The Nebuchadnezzar. And all the sentinels were coming at them. 115 00:05:56.980 --> 00:05:59.439 And they can't attack them one by one. but an 116 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.790 EMP can take them all out. That's exactly what they showed. 117 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:09.470 So Charles, my fellow physicist, tell me about EMPs. What 118 00:06:09.529 --> 00:06:13.449 are they and why do they destroy machines and not people? 119 00:06:13.949 --> 00:06:19.589 Oh, it's very simple. Electromagnetic pulse is a burst of radiation. 120 00:06:20.069 --> 00:06:24.509 It could also contain electrons, but mostly it's high energy 121 00:06:24.569 --> 00:06:27.889 radiation that will disrupt electronics. Think about it, if you're 122 00:06:27.910 --> 00:06:31.069 ever listening to radio and a lightning strike, a lightning 123 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:35.509 bolt hits nearby, for a moment your radio goes, brief 124 00:06:35.529 --> 00:06:37.709 bit of static. The bottom line is, and we'll keep 125 00:06:37.750 --> 00:06:42.779 this super short, an electromagnetic pulse can simply be created 126 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.120 by detonating a very large nuclear device, maybe a few 127 00:06:47.180 --> 00:06:49.560 tens or maybe a few hundred miles up from the 128 00:06:49.620 --> 00:06:52.639 Earth's surface. And if it's a powerful enough burst, it 129 00:06:52.699 --> 00:06:56.449 will blast so much pulse out into the environment that 130 00:06:56.470 --> 00:07:02.009 it will fry any electronic devices, communication systems, or power 131 00:07:02.069 --> 00:07:03.389 grids in its vicinity. 132 00:07:03.910 --> 00:07:07.470 So you're not talking about the blast, the physical blast, 133 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:12.209 you're talking about the electromagnetic blast that's associated with those. 134 00:07:12.110 --> 00:07:12.829 Bombs as well. 135 00:07:12.870 --> 00:07:15.970 That's right. The physical blast is bad enough, but there 136 00:07:15.990 --> 00:07:19.110 were some nightmare scenarios back in the 80s where maybe 137 00:07:19.250 --> 00:07:22.350 an enemy could take a huge bomb, put it a 138 00:07:22.389 --> 00:07:27.050 couple hundred miles up above the continental United States, detonate it, 139 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:30.319 create an electromagnetic pulse from coast to coast, and wipe 140 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.089 out all communications and command and control of the United 141 00:07:33.129 --> 00:07:35.490 States before a single shot was fired. 142 00:07:36.089 --> 00:07:36.449 Wow. 143 00:07:37.370 --> 00:07:42.680 Electromagnetic pulse. So can we protect against electromagnetic pulses? 144 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:47.449 Yes, to some extent. the military knows how to harden 145 00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:50.629 things to protect it from electric magnetic pulse. For example, 146 00:07:50.649 --> 00:07:50.939 Air Force One. 147 00:07:50.949 --> 00:07:53.610 That was hardened in quotes. I like the way you 148 00:07:53.649 --> 00:07:54.410 uttered that, Charles. 149 00:07:54.430 --> 00:07:54.709 That's right. 150 00:07:54.850 --> 00:07:56.810 That was a Charles. This word is in quotes. 151 00:07:57.370 --> 00:07:58.129 Yes.

152 00:07:58.930 --> 00:07:59.129 Yeah. 153 00:07:59.269 --> 00:08:04.029 Air Force One, for example, is hardened against EMP. But unfortunately, 154 00:08:04.069 --> 00:08:07.389 you can only do so much before you will be overwhelmed. 155 00:08:07.449 --> 00:08:09.300 If the blast is too close or too powerful. 156 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:11.560 So is this the famous Faraday cage you can stick 157 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:11.740 it in? 158 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:14.779 You can help. That will help, yes, when you surround 159 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:16.139 something with metal. 160 00:08:16.660 --> 00:08:21.600 And also, don't forget tinfoil hats. Tinfoil hats are very... 161 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:23.990 That's a different kind of pulse. That's a different kind 162 00:08:24.019 --> 00:08:24.350 of pulse. 163 00:08:24.379 --> 00:08:25.050 Yeah, absolutely. 164 00:08:25.379 --> 00:08:26.110 Very effective. 165 00:08:26.870 --> 00:08:30.970 So if you surround something with a metallic frame, then 166 00:08:31.009 --> 00:08:35.529 the electromagnetic energy gets stopped at that outer surface. 167 00:08:35.549 --> 00:08:37.029 Right, it circles around the outside. 168 00:08:37.070 --> 00:08:38.870 Something called the skin effect. 169 00:08:38.929 --> 00:08:41.509 The skin effect, yeah. Very cool. Very cool. 170 00:08:41.570 --> 00:08:46.879 So if you want satellites to survive an enemy attack, 171 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.120 not by missiles, but by an EMP, you'd want to 172 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:51.820 harden them in this way. 173 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.600 Yes. For example, there are other ways. 174 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:56.879 So in the, all the examples of this that you 175 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.539 have seen in film, have they done it right? Like 176 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:02.580 how about in oceans 11? No, I mean, that wasn't, 177 00:09:02.620 --> 00:09:04.659 wasn't a bomb. It was just something that made the 178 00:09:04.740 --> 00:09:08.870 pure electromagnetic pulse. And apparently this high energy radiation is 179 00:09:08.919 --> 00:09:12.259 not melting the flesh off of the people who detonate 180 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:12.690 the switch. 181 00:09:13.009 --> 00:09:13.730 Unfortunately. 182 00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:21.710 You're a morbid dude. Have you gotten this checked out? 183 00:09:22.409 --> 00:09:26.690 No, I haven't. It's still rampant within you. It's just happening, man. 184 00:09:26.730 --> 00:09:29.629 I can't help it. Okay. 185 00:09:29.730 --> 00:09:31.669 So how is it that you can have a pulse 186 00:09:32.269 --> 00:09:34.450 that doesn't then harm the people who engage the pulse? 187 00:09:36.730 --> 00:09:40.820 A pulse is electromagnetic and therefore generally passes through the 188 00:09:40.860 --> 00:09:43.740 human body. If it's strong enough, it can scramble you, 189 00:09:43.820 --> 00:09:46.539 cause you injury the way like a radiation burn might. 190 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:50.620 But generally speaking, it

takes much less to damage an 191 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.210 electronic system than it does to damage us. 192 00:09:55.610 --> 00:09:59.429 Okay. All right. All right. I can get that. Plus, 193 00:09:59.509 --> 00:09:59.970 I presume. 194 00:10:00.470 --> 00:10:04.809 If you design an EMP detonator, you could tune the 195 00:10:04.909 --> 00:10:08.370 frequencies to be just what would be most damaging to 196 00:10:08.409 --> 00:10:13.129 a circuit and not to whatever might be the electrochemistry 197 00:10:13.169 --> 00:10:13.840 of the human body. 198 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:16.279 It's possible, but it's a little harder to do that, though. 199 00:10:16.820 --> 00:10:18.980 When you have a bomb going off, especially a nuke, 200 00:10:19.879 --> 00:10:22.200 a lot of radiation goes out from a lot of ranges. 201 00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:24.740 That's just the way it goes. Yeah. And you just 202 00:10:24.779 --> 00:10:27.720 take it. And so, yeah, human beings are under threat, 203 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:30.840 but a human being at a certain distance will wind 204 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:33.870 up being damaged less than an electronic device at that 205 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:34.419 same distance. 206 00:10:34.539 --> 00:10:35.889 Or even at a greater distance. Right. 207 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:36.149 Right. 208 00:10:36.210 --> 00:10:36.350 Okay. 209 00:10:36.590 --> 00:10:37.110 All right. 210 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:38.529 All right. 211 00:10:38.590 --> 00:10:38.870 Cool. 212 00:10:39.190 --> 00:10:40.549 Well, we got to take a quick break. And when 213 00:10:40.590 --> 00:10:42.909 we come back, Charles, you can stay with us and 214 00:10:42.929 --> 00:10:47.789 we're going to bring on a major general, Deanna Burt, who's, who's, 215 00:10:48.350 --> 00:10:49.570 In the Space Force. 216 00:10:49.970 --> 00:10:51.889 This is an actual. 217 00:10:51.909 --> 00:10:56.379 We're the Space Force. We're the force that deals with space. Well, 218 00:10:57.299 --> 00:11:01.480 the Air Force has designated a march, which is based 219 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.419 on a piece by John Philip Sousa called The Invincible Eagle. However, 220 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:07.750 no lyrics have yet been written. 221 00:11:08.750 --> 00:11:08.870 Oh. 222 00:11:09.450 --> 00:11:09.549 Oh. 223 00:11:10.090 --> 00:11:12.330 Okay, so this is waiting for the moment. We're waiting 224 00:11:12.350 --> 00:11:14.169 for Charles to utter the lyrics. 225 00:11:15.250 --> 00:11:16.370 Oh, sorry. 226 00:11:17.370 --> 00:11:20.799 That's much better than mine, which was just, Space Force, 227 00:11:20.899 --> 00:11:24.779 nothing but Space Force. Yes, we are Space Force. 228 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:30.500 Space Force. Where have I heard that before? All right, guys, 229 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.399 we're going to take a break. We're going to come 230 00:11:32.440 --> 00:11:35.970 back with an actual member of the actual U.S. Space 231 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:41.019 Force on Star Talk. We're back, StarTalk. We're talking about 232 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.889 the Space Force. Space Force. 233 00:11:43.970 --> 00:11:48.950 And I got my co-host, Chuck. Nice, Chuck. Hey, hey, hey. 234 00:11:49.230 --> 00:11:50.929 Chuck, you're still going at Chuck Nice Comic. 235 00:11:51.250 --> 00:11:53.590 Thank you, sir. Yes, I am. You are indeed. 236 00:11:54.289 --> 00:11:57.389 And our resident geek and chief for a return visit, 237 00:11:57.789 --> 00:12:01.940 his nth return visit, we say mathematically because we've lost count. 238 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:03.980 Exactly, lost count. Charles Liu. 239 00:12:05.690 --> 00:12:07.429 Charles Liu, always good to have you back here, Charles. 240 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:08.509 Pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. 241 00:12:08.509 --> 00:12:10.509 We're talking about the Space Force, and for this segment, 242 00:12:10.909 --> 00:12:14.559 we are bringing in an actual physical human being person 243 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:19.779 who's part of the Space Force, Major General Deanna Burt. 244 00:12:19.820 --> 00:12:22.740 Deanna, welcome. Welcome, General, and welcome to StarTalk. 245 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:23.200 Yeah. 246 00:12:23.779 --> 00:12:25.470 Thanks, Dr. Tyson. It's a pleasure to be here with 247 00:12:25.490 --> 00:12:26.029 you guys today. 248 00:12:26.509 --> 00:12:31.110 Excellent. Now that we're just using our actual titles, please, 249 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:33.929 I am Lord Nice. Okay, Lord Nice. 250 00:12:36.070 --> 00:12:36.789 Your lordship. 251 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:41.230 We got Dr. Liu, Dr. Tyson, Major General Byrne, and 252 00:12:41.330 --> 00:12:42.649 Lord Nice. Lord Nice. 253 00:12:43.509 --> 00:12:45.789 So just some of your pedigree. I mean, you guys 254 00:12:45.830 --> 00:12:49.429 have these titles which are very precise in the military world, 255 00:12:49.750 --> 00:12:52.940 but just sound so impressive just listening from the outside. 256 00:12:53.909 --> 00:12:56.769 So as I have it written here, you're Commander of 257 00:12:56.789 --> 00:13:01.799 the Combined Force Space Component Command of the US Space Command. 258 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:02.559 Did I get that right? 259 00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:03.500 Yes, sir, you did. 260 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:04.740 Cool, cool. 261 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:08.340 And you're also Vice Commander of Space Operations Command at 262 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.899 Vandenberg Space Force Base in California. 263 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:12.559 Wow. 264 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:12.940 Yes, sir. 265 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:17.820 That's different from... The commander of vice. That's different from 266 00:13:17.840 --> 00:13:22.740 being vice commander. That was my former position. That's what 267 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.360 I used to do. Different operations there. And you were 268 00:13:26.419 --> 00:13:30.690 formerly at Peterson Space Force. I knew it as Peterson 269 00:13:30.710 --> 00:13:34.370 Air Force Base, now Peterson Space

Force Base, Colorado. I 270 00:13:34.389 --> 00:13:36.529 visited that when I served on the board of the 271 00:13:36.590 --> 00:13:40.879 Space Foundation. And correct me, General, is that where they 272 00:13:41.139 --> 00:13:42.840 control GPS satellites? 273 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:43.700 Yes, sir. 274 00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:46.299 Out at Schriever Space Force Base. That's about 12 miles 275 00:13:47.299 --> 00:13:48.360 east of Peterson. 276 00:13:48.850 --> 00:13:50.350 Okay. Both in Colorado, for sure. 277 00:13:50.370 --> 00:13:50.639 Yes, sir. 278 00:13:51.009 --> 00:13:55.149 There it is. So tell us, what is your actual 279 00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:58.029 role as a major general in the new U.S. 280 00:13:58.049 --> 00:13:58.549 Space Force? 281 00:13:59.750 --> 00:14:02.450 So thanks, Dr. Tyson. I think, again, we talked about 282 00:14:02.490 --> 00:14:03.230 that I have two hats. 283 00:14:03.309 --> 00:14:05.429 So my first hat that you mentioned, I'm a functional 284 00:14:05.470 --> 00:14:08.549 component command working directly for General Dickinson, the U.S. 285 00:14:08.570 --> 00:14:09.429 Space Command commander. 286 00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:13.639 So I command and control about 17,000 military and civilian 287 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.409 personnel to provide combat space effects to the other combatant commands, 288 00:14:17.450 --> 00:14:21.649 the multi-domain fight, and our coalition partners and the nation. 289 00:14:22.110 --> 00:14:25.629 Just to be clear, multi-domain means other branches of the 290 00:14:25.649 --> 00:14:26.190 armed forces. 291 00:14:26.210 --> 00:14:26.710 Is that correct? 292 00:14:26.850 --> 00:14:27.330 Absolutely. 293 00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:30.889 So, again, space is not just done for space's sake. 294 00:14:30.980 --> 00:14:33.299 It's done to be able to provide those war-winning effects 295 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.840 both to the nation and to the other services so 296 00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:38.600 they can fight and win the fights that they come against. 297 00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:41.610 On the service side, though, my other hat that you mentioned, 298 00:14:41.629 --> 00:14:45.529 and I'm a vice commander, I also work on the generate, sustain, 299 00:14:46.289 --> 00:14:49.610 and present for the Space Force and how do we 300 00:14:49.649 --> 00:14:50.549 put forces together. 301 00:14:50.570 --> 00:14:52.389 So I'm really, it's good that I have the two hats. 302 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:54.110 And one way I'm looking at how do we make 303 00:14:54.149 --> 00:14:57.110 sure the forces are ready to be presented to as 304 00:14:57.169 --> 00:14:59.990 the vice commander to then present to the combatant command 305 00:15:00.029 --> 00:15:02.460 in my joint hat to do that warfighting mission. 306 00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:08.570 So you have a degree in aerospace engineering. So were 307 00:15:08.610 --> 00:15:11.500 you thinking back then, gee, I want to be general 308 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:14.039 in

the U.S. Space Force that isn't invented yet? Like 309 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:14.960 what's going through your head? 310 00:15:15.590 --> 00:15:16.389 Not even close. 311 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:21.519 I am a first generation college student in my family. 312 00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:24.440 And so that was a big deal. 313 00:15:25.179 --> 00:15:32.049 You know, you could have done just a little less. Seriously, 314 00:15:32.470 --> 00:15:35.470 you're the first to do it. And you're just like, 315 00:15:35.509 --> 00:15:37.409 I'm just going to blow up the road behind me 316 00:15:37.889 --> 00:15:38.909 for everybody else. 317 00:15:39.500 --> 00:15:39.769 Right? 318 00:15:40.149 --> 00:15:42.360 You're just going to be completely embarrassed if you try 319 00:15:42.379 --> 00:15:45.600 to follow in these footsteps. Yeah, I'm the first generation. 320 00:15:45.639 --> 00:15:48.659 I'm now a major general. I'm head of all space. 321 00:15:49.220 --> 00:15:50.360 And yeah, you know. 322 00:15:50.740 --> 00:15:54.019 I've got 17,000 people reporting to me. 323 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.100 So your lordship, I want you to imagine you're my 324 00:15:56.139 --> 00:15:57.340 brother who's three years younger than me. 325 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:58.600 Yeah, it doesn't go really well. 326 00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:01.259 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Damn, damn. 327 00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:05.529 Okay, so what was your brain transition from getting a, quote, 328 00:16:05.590 --> 00:16:09.470 simple engineering degree to landing... as an officer. 329 00:16:09.190 --> 00:16:09.710 In the military? 330 00:16:10.250 --> 00:16:12.559 So I think I entered Dr. Tyson the same way 331 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.659 many people come into the military is for college. I mean, 332 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:17.100 my parents couldn't afford to send me to college. The 333 00:16:17.139 --> 00:16:20.139 Air Force offered me a four-year degree if I was 334 00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:25.019 willing to pursue STEM, science, technology, engineering, or math. I 335 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:28.769 took aeronautical engineering at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Florida. 336 00:16:29.129 --> 00:16:30.950 It was far enough away from home that I didn't 337 00:16:30.990 --> 00:16:32.710 see my parents every weekend, but I could go home 338 00:16:32.730 --> 00:16:35.850 to Jacksonville, Florida, where my family was when I wanted to. 339 00:16:37.029 --> 00:16:39.149 I was a Space Coast baby, so space was always 340 00:16:39.250 --> 00:16:41.480 interesting to me growing up with the shuttle. 341 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:42.019 Program and all those. 342 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.940 Space Coast is the east coast of Florida in the 343 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.299 northern section where we have Cape Canaveral. So I don't 344 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.519 know how many people know that that's just called Space Coast, 345 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:54.639 but it certainly is. And glad

to hear that you 346 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:57.789 had a little bit of space baptism there. From that exposure. Okay, 347 00:16:57.850 --> 00:16:58.710 keep going. 348 00:16:58.950 --> 00:17:00.429 But I thought, you know, I was going to do 349 00:17:00.490 --> 00:17:02.879 my four and done because when you take a scholarship, 350 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.700 you owe four years back to the military. But I 351 00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:07.960 fell in love with the people and the mission. And 352 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.500 here I am 29 years later. So it's been really 353 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:12.119 good to me and I've learned a ton. And now 354 00:17:12.259 --> 00:17:14.480 I've crossed over three months ago from the Air Force 355 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:18.500 to the Space Force. And it's just been amazing, amazing ride. 356 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.049 So I just want to ask very quickly, because it's 357 00:17:22.329 --> 00:17:24.049 just a bit of an aside, just a bit of 358 00:17:24.089 --> 00:17:26.980 a digression. Who came up with the name Space Force? 359 00:17:27.059 --> 00:17:30.240 Because I'm just going to say it's so very clever. 360 00:17:30.859 --> 00:17:34.299 No, I think the name United States Space Force identifies 361 00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.759 the domain that we work in. And it's a warfighting domain. 362 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.609 And then the force that executes, just like you have 363 00:17:38.619 --> 00:17:41.329 the United States Air Force, United States Army. Again, they 364 00:17:41.589 --> 00:17:43.990 typically associate with the domain that they operate in. 365 00:17:44.869 --> 00:17:47.430 OK, so we've got to get to brass tacks here 366 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:50.109 because there's some percent of the public. I don't think 367 00:17:50.150 --> 00:17:52.109 it's the majority, but it's enough of them for me 368 00:17:52.130 --> 00:17:56.029 to bring the question to you. They're concerned that Space 369 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:00.609 Force is sort of the escalation of military tensions in 370 00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:04.130 the world and that it's just we're just going to 371 00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:09.619 have laser fights and bombs in space. And I don't 372 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:14.440 think people see this as a positive step as opposed 373 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:17.779 to being either neutral or a peaceful step for the 374 00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:20.069 future of the security of the world. Could you just 375 00:18:20.109 --> 00:18:20.589 react to that? 376 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:25.309 I totally understand and understand as a military member, I 377 00:18:25.329 --> 00:18:27.049 don't want to see a war that extends into space. 378 00:18:27.069 --> 00:18:28.569 That's not good for anyone. That's not good for our 379 00:18:28.609 --> 00:18:31.869 coalition partners, commercial industry, anybody. So we don't want to 380 00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:34.710 see that. But like any other department, we have to 381 00:18:34.750

--> 00:18:36.779 be ready to fight and win our nation's wars wherever 382 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:40.490 they go. So, again, our enemies are showing and the 383 00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:43.619 threats have evolved. General Raymond and General Dickinson have both 384 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:47.240 testified to many things that are on orbit today by 385 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:51.259 our strategic adversaries or competitors, China and Russia, that exist. 386 00:18:51.819 --> 00:18:54.359 as we speak right now. So it's not that the 387 00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.559 threats are coming. The threats are on orbit, and we 388 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:00.160 have to be prepared to respond and react and protect 389 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:00.680 our assets. 390 00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:03.849 And for those who are into our archives, we actually 391 00:19:03.869 --> 00:19:07.250 have General Raymond as a guest on an earlier episode 392 00:19:07.269 --> 00:19:09.690 of StarTalk. So you can dig that out of our files. Chuck, 393 00:19:09.730 --> 00:19:10.309 what were you saying? 394 00:19:10.329 --> 00:19:13.970 When you say threat, what exactly are you referring to 395 00:19:14.809 --> 00:19:18.250 as a threat when it comes to our low Earth 396 00:19:18.369 --> 00:19:23.009 orbit Or any Earth orbit. 397 00:19:23.349 --> 00:19:28.670 So you have direct ascent anti-satellite munitions, so ASATs for 398 00:19:28.690 --> 00:19:30.990 both low Earth orbit and beyond. And that's been proven 399 00:19:31.029 --> 00:19:33.950 by the Chinese in 2007. They launched an ASAT and 400 00:19:33.970 --> 00:19:35.619 killed one of their own, hit one of their own 401 00:19:35.650 --> 00:19:39.579 dead weatherbirds in 2007, blew it into thousands of pieces. 402 00:19:39.619 --> 00:19:42.019 We are still tracking to this day and will be 403 00:19:42.039 --> 00:19:46.660 for generations to come. So that created long-lived debris that 404 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:49.509 will affect everyone in the domain, not just the Department 405 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:49.890 of Defense. 406 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.000 And it'll affect China as well. 407 00:19:52.460 --> 00:19:52.980 Yes. 408 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:55.579 That's like peeing in your own in your own bathtub. 409 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:57.799 Yeah. I mean, what what were they doing? Is that 410 00:19:57.859 --> 00:20:00.329 like a guy who starts a fight by punching himself 411 00:20:00.380 --> 00:20:03.430 in the face? You know, just like I'll show you 412 00:20:03.490 --> 00:20:06.650 how tough I am. Like, what the heck? 413 00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:08.369 Well, what we'll do is we've got more of a 414 00:20:08.410 --> 00:20:10.509 jaw coming in in the third segment. And that's his 415 00:20:10.569 --> 00:20:11.410 total expertise. 416 00:20:11.769 --> 00:20:11.910 So. 417 00:20:12.230 --> 00:20:16.099 So let's that's a nice seed planted for that. So 418 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.819 let's keep going on. What what other threats. 419 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:18.920 Do we see? 420 00:20:19.509 --> 00:20:21.849 So the other options that are out there, again, General 421 00:20:21.890 --> 00:20:24.880 Raymond and General Dickinson in their congressional testimonies talked about 422 00:20:24.990 --> 00:20:28.279 both of these. One is a Chinese robotic arm. So 423 00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:31.519 they have a robotic arm in geosynchronous orbit that they 424 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:33.670 are doing testing with. So if you've seen the show 425 00:20:33.710 --> 00:20:36.960 Space Force, one of my favorites. In the second episode, 426 00:20:36.980 --> 00:20:38.220 you see the satellite. 427 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.220 Let's be clear, that's a comedy, right? Yes, sir, it is. 428 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:40.960 With Steve Carell. 429 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:41.829 That's right. 430 00:20:42.869 --> 00:20:45.430 And when you see them cut the solar panel off 431 00:20:45.470 --> 00:20:48.549 of the satellite, funny ha-ha, but when you talk about 432 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:51.930 today on orbit, the Chinese have a robotic arm. 433 00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:53.490 That's exactly what they could do. 434 00:20:53.549 --> 00:20:55.900 They could rip off a piece of a satellite or 435 00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:59.779 hurt it in some way, throw it into an unusable orbit. So, again, 436 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.519 that robotic arm is very scary in a very high-interest 437 00:21:03.579 --> 00:21:07.000 orbit for communications, missile warning. and all the capabilities that 438 00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:09.539 we depend on to protect and communicate with our forces. 439 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:12.839 The second one, again, is what we call the Russian 440 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.720 nesting doll. So the Russians launched into low Earth orbit 441 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:21.130 a nesting primary vehicle, launched an orbital engagement system that 442 00:21:21.170 --> 00:21:23.430 came out of that satellite and then from that satellite 443 00:21:24.220 --> 00:21:27.259 came a kinetic kill vehicle. It shadowed one of our 444 00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:30.180 high value assets in low earth orbit for a period 445 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.650 of time that again to us was not appropriate because 446 00:21:33.670 --> 00:21:36.970 they were testing that capability. And instead of testing against 447 00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:40.150 their own capabilities, they were shadowing and testing near one 448 00:21:40.170 --> 00:21:44.430 of our high value assets. So again, not good happening 449 00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:47.309 every day and on orbit and their capabilities continue to grow. 450 00:21:47.329 --> 00:21:50.799 And again, those are all down class level. We've recognized 451 00:21:50.819 --> 00:21:53.950 that security is important for us, but at the same time, 452 00:21:53.990 --> 00:21:56.470 how do we portray to the American people? What are 453 00:21:56.509 --> 00:21:59.390 the threats on orbit? It's really hard to understand

because 454 00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:02.509 satellites don't have moms, right? No one can understand what 455 00:22:02.529 --> 00:22:04.069 the threats are in orbit because you don't see them 456 00:22:04.130 --> 00:22:06.089 every day as you do in the other domains and 457 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:09.440 you get pictures up. So it's really hard to communicate 458 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:12.119 to the American people what this is. And the show 459 00:22:12.180 --> 00:22:14.119 is really important to doing that. And so I appreciate 460 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.660 that you do these because it makes it real to folks. 461 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.759 It helps them understand some very complex things as the 462 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:22.680 boss says, space is hard. How do you translate that 463 00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:23.519 to the American people? 464 00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:30.480 Interesting, very perceptive point that satellites don't have family that 465 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:33.109 you can then get them to plea for their safety. 466 00:22:33.549 --> 00:22:37.769 But satellites do have financial value, not only in the 467 00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:41.109 value of the hardware itself, but in the marketplace that 468 00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:45.319 it enables, be it Uber or Tinder or bank records 469 00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:48.279 or anything else. Is there some clear way? And is 470 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:54.259 it your job? to communicate how deep that threat can 471 00:22:54.299 --> 00:22:56.740 be to our way of life. Or to some other 472 00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:58.319 agency whose job that. 473 00:22:58.259 --> 00:22:59.099 Is and not yours. 474 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:00.519 No, that's absolutely ours. 475 00:23:00.579 --> 00:23:03.160 I mean, there is a threat to the American way 476 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.700 of life and the American way of war if we 477 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:07.849 lose these capabilities. I mean, GPS, I'm a former GPS 478 00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:09.670 squadron commander. I mean, one of the things we talk 479 00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:11.849 about with all the time with GPS is not only 480 00:23:11.890 --> 00:23:14.150 the navigation signal, which we all use every day to 481 00:23:14.230 --> 00:23:17.049 travel the world, but also the timing signal. The timing 482 00:23:17.089 --> 00:23:20.029 signal is used to stick many of our cell towers 483 00:23:20.069 --> 00:23:22.410 and communication networks that you use every day, as well 484 00:23:22.470 --> 00:23:24.650 as the New York Stock Exchange. So imagine if that 485 00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:27.170 timing signal is gone, what does that do to trade? 486 00:23:27.210 --> 00:23:30.279 What does that do to commerce? I mean, those are 487 00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:33.539 things that happen every day. One of General Dickinson's, the U.S. 488 00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.000 Space Command commander's slogans is never a day without space. 489 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:40.799 So again, absolutely, his wheelhouse is Space Command commander to 490 00:23:40.819 --> 00:23:43.119 defend and protect all those capabilities. 491 00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:47.200 And most people don't even know. I mean, I try, really, 492 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:49.880 I try, but they don't know how much of your 493 00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:55.420 everyday life is touched by space assets, beyond simple GPS. 494 00:23:55.789 --> 00:23:59.009 I mean, I don't think people appreciate that. And so 495 00:23:59.089 --> 00:24:02.549 I think there's a task ahead of us all in 496 00:24:02.589 --> 00:24:07.430 this to try to communicate the value of what you 497 00:24:07.470 --> 00:24:07.829 are doing. 498 00:24:08.569 --> 00:24:12.490 And do these satellites that you guys are responsible for, 499 00:24:12.809 --> 00:24:16.759 for lack of a better term, do they include private 500 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:19.420 sector property? Oh, that's a good question. 501 00:24:19.460 --> 00:24:19.660 Yeah. 502 00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:21.519 Or just government satellites. 503 00:24:21.819 --> 00:24:22.900 Your Lordship, great question. 504 00:24:24.809 --> 00:24:28.539 She's sticking with that title. You know what? See, but 505 00:24:28.579 --> 00:24:32.880 this is the difference between civilians and people in the military. 506 00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.799 People in the military are like, oh, you want to 507 00:24:34.819 --> 00:24:36.519 be that? I'm going to make you regret that. 508 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.519 Chuck, you're going to have to change your Twitter handle. 509 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:42.960 That's what's going to happen. 510 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:43.309 Lordship. 511 00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:46.849 I think Lordship Nice has a great ring to it. 512 00:24:47.369 --> 00:24:47.930 It does. 513 00:24:48.089 --> 00:24:49.930 It actually, I hate to admit it, but it does. 514 00:24:50.049 --> 00:24:52.009 It does. 515 00:24:52.029 --> 00:24:52.829 That's a great question. 516 00:24:52.869 --> 00:24:57.349 So what I would say is we track 32,000 pieces 517 00:24:57.789 --> 00:25:02.549 on orbit. Of that 32,000, about 5,000 are active satellites 518 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:07.190 or active objects. And from that, then about 10%-ish of 519 00:25:07.230 --> 00:25:10.059 those are government resources for the United States of America, 520 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:12.680 whether that be Department of Defense or other agencies, but 521 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:13.920 government capability. 522 00:25:14.569 --> 00:25:17.269 When you guys did this interview with General. 523 00:25:17.299 --> 00:25:21.380 Raymond in 2019, we had about 1,800 objects that were 524 00:25:21.460 --> 00:25:24.640 live on orbit. And that was quoted in that podcast. Today, 525 00:25:24.940 --> 00:25:28.069 think 5,000. We've almost tripled. And you might say, well, 526 00:25:28.150 --> 00:25:28.930 why did we triple? 527 00:25:28.970 --> 00:25:29.950 That's not government. 528 00:25:30.509 --> 00:25:34.289 Because we're only

10% of that. The triple has happened 529 00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:36.589 in the commercial market. The cost of launch has reduced 530 00:25:36.950 --> 00:25:38.710 based on the number of folks who are bringing that 531 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:42.079 capability to bear and reducing launch costs. And now you 532 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:47.880 see companies engaging in building satellites, SpaceX with Starlink, getting 533 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.329 ready to launch 100 at a throw to get 5G 534 00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:53.430 in low orbit, OneWeb. I mean, there are many companies 535 00:25:53.490 --> 00:25:56.210 now that are launching satellites, and we only see that 536 00:25:56.269 --> 00:25:57.410 continuing to explode. 537 00:25:58.339 --> 00:26:01.900 By the way, Charles and I are co-authors on papers 538 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:05.109 that use data from the Hubble Space Telescope, which is 539 00:26:05.130 --> 00:26:08.329 a honkering satellite up there. Not a lot of people 540 00:26:08.349 --> 00:26:10.089 think of it as a satellite. It's a satellite, but 541 00:26:10.109 --> 00:26:12.390 it's a big one the size of a Greyhound bus. 542 00:26:12.990 --> 00:26:15.950 I'd like to think that some major portion of your 543 00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:18.579 responsibility is protecting that telescope. I'm just saying between you 544 00:26:18.619 --> 00:26:18.789 and me. 545 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:19.769 Absolutely. 546 00:26:19.890 --> 00:26:21.390 And we do that day in and day out to 547 00:26:21.430 --> 00:26:25.450 ensure nothing from a debris perspective or another active payload 548 00:26:25.869 --> 00:26:29.180 would conjunct or hit you. Also, as any of those 549 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:33.319 objects reenter Earth's atmosphere, we're tracking those and reporting those, 550 00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:35.640 working with State Department if we predict a landing in 551 00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:38.910 another country. or how that would happen in through U.S. 552 00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:39.410 Space Command. 553 00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:41.730 So those are happening day in and day out, and 554 00:26:41.769 --> 00:26:43.910 that's our bread and butter of our job. I think 555 00:26:43.950 --> 00:26:46.769 what will change here shortly, which we really need to 556 00:26:46.809 --> 00:26:49.769 normalize the domain, and this is all space traffic. 557 00:26:49.420 --> 00:26:50.180 Management, right? 558 00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.640 How do we operate on orbit satellite to satellite and 559 00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:56.500 is free and fair for all is the Department of Commerce. 560 00:26:56.539 --> 00:27:00.500 So there's an NDAA, a National Defense Authorization Act, that 561 00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:02.690 says the Department of Commerce will be the lead for 562 00:27:02.750 --> 00:27:05.049 space traffic management. We have been doing that as the 563 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:09.759 government because the government had the lion's share of capability on. 564 00:27:09.730 -->

00:27:11.259 Orbit due to the cost of entry. But as I 565 00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:12.880 said earlier, you can see now it's tripled. 566 00:27:12.940 --> 00:27:14.940 It's more commercial. 567 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:15.420 Yeah. 568 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:17.599 So we need an FAA for space. 569 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.569 I'm reminded that NOAA, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, is 570 00:27:22.869 --> 00:27:26.150 a branch of the Department of Commerce. And so here 571 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:31.049 we are monitoring climate and weather, recognizing its direct impact 572 00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:34.400 on the economic security of the nation. So Charles, do 573 00:27:34.420 --> 00:27:35.039 you have a question? 574 00:27:35.339 --> 00:27:37.369 Yes, it would be great. Thank you. I have two 575 00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:42.109 very short questions, if that's okay. First of all, you 576 00:27:42.250 --> 00:27:45.609 mentioned domain, right? As we know, the United States generally 577 00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:49.210 considers space as being 50 miles on up. So I 578 00:27:49.250 --> 00:27:51.910 presume that your domain certainly starts at 50 miles perhaps 579 00:27:51.950 --> 00:27:55.609 before then. But how far up does it go? Does 580 00:27:55.670 --> 00:27:57.829 it go past the moon? Does it go to the 581 00:27:57.869 --> 00:27:59.819 moon or lunar orbit? Does it go to Mars? In 582 00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:03.140 other words, Is Space Force really the force for the 583 00:28:03.220 --> 00:28:07.359 domain of the universe itself, or just a little bit 584 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:08.900 less than that? 585 00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:11.279 General, he wants you to protect from here to the 586 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:13.640 edge of the cosmic horizon. 587 00:28:13.839 --> 00:28:14.859 That's what that sounds like. 588 00:28:14.980 --> 00:28:17.460 So what I would say is, as the U.S. Space 589 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:21.250 Command unified command plan, so when you're a combatant commander, 590 00:28:21.710 --> 00:28:24.829 you have a unified command plan that defines what your 591 00:28:24.930 --> 00:28:26.410 area of responsibility is. 592 00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:29.240 Every geographic combatant commander has that. 593 00:28:29.299 --> 00:28:32.119 So whether you're European Command, Pacific Command, you have a 594 00:28:32.180 --> 00:28:34.109 defined area of responsibility. 595 00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:35.950 For General Dickinson as the U.S. 596 00:28:35.970 --> 00:28:39.430 Space Command commander, the Unified Command Plan signed by the 597 00:28:39.470 --> 00:28:42.329 SECDEF and the President states that he is responsible for 598 00:28:42.329 --> 00:28:45.200 100 kilometers above the Earth's surface to infinity. 599 00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:51.630 To infinity. And beyond, and beyond, and beyond. That completely 600 00:28:51.690 --> 00:28:52.509 answers my question. 601 00:28:52.910 --> 00:28:54.589 General, go back to that document and you have to

602 00:28:54.630 --> 00:28:55.470 put in and beyond. 603 00:28:56.579 --> 00:28:59.359 Please do that. And by the way, you have to 604 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:04.380 stretch it out in type. And beyond! 605 00:29:05.019 --> 00:29:08.700 And in all seriousness to Dr. Liu's question is, I 606 00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:10.480 would say to you day to day, Dr. Liu, we 607 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.319 are concerned mostly with geo and in. So 22,500 miles 608 00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:18.160 and in to that 100 kilometer area is where we focus. 609 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:18.380 Day to day. 610 00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:21.119 It's code for geostationary. 611 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:21.960 Yes, sir. 612 00:29:22.029 --> 00:29:24.730 When you talk about the moon and you talk about 613 00:29:24.769 --> 00:29:27.569 where we're going in 2024 by putting astronauts on the 614 00:29:27.609 --> 00:29:30.990 moon to stay, where Elon Musk is in his adventure 615 00:29:31.009 --> 00:29:33.269 to get to Mars, you can see, though, that in 616 00:29:33.309 --> 00:29:36.230 the next five to 10 years, it will become geo 617 00:29:36.390 --> 00:29:36.750 and out. 618 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:39.250 And how far out is appropriate. 619 00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:44.079 One of the discussions we've had is about geo times 14. 620 00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:45.720 And you might say, hey, Deanna, Dr. 621 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:49.420 Liu may know this answer, but geo times 14 is 622 00:29:49.460 --> 00:29:52.130 where you have a three body problem between the Earth, 623 00:29:52.410 --> 00:29:54.829 the moon and the sun. And so we're trying to 624 00:29:54.869 --> 00:29:57.609 define requirements in the military of how far out do 625 00:29:57.650 --> 00:30:00.170 we want to start looking for the future to then 626 00:30:00.210 --> 00:30:04.509 build requirements and build systems and do budget requests, et cetera, 627 00:30:04.549 --> 00:30:05.150 for all of that. 628 00:30:07.900 --> 00:30:10.640 That sounds like the Lagrangian point, I guess. 629 00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:13.519 Yes, you have to start paying close attention to Lagrange 630 00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:16.140 surfaces and Liseu figures and things like that. 631 00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:20.150 Wait a minute. I've heard of Lagrange. You can't just 632 00:30:20.210 --> 00:30:24.289 drop in like you're on a French cooking show. 633 00:30:24.130 --> 00:30:26.289 And just move forward from Liseu. 634 00:30:26.349 --> 00:30:30.029 Look it up. No, no. I would love to ask 635 00:30:30.150 --> 00:30:32.670 one more question. This is actually from my educator's hat, 636 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:33.900 if that's okay, General Burton. 637 00:30:33.940 --> 00:30:34.650 You bet. 638 00:30:34.799 --> 00:30:37.390 First... Let me just thank you on behalf of so 639 00:30:37.430 --> 00:30:39.819 many of us for your service to the country, to 640 00:30:39.859 --> 00:30:42.500 keeping us safe, to making sure that our lives are 641 00:30:42.859 --> 00:30:44.339 as

good as they are. So thank you so much 642 00:30:44.380 --> 00:30:47.480 for that. Now, there are people, young men and women 643 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:51.079 and young people all over who are looking at you 644 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:54.900 and saying, how can I be General Burt? Not just 645 00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:58.059 education wise, but like your opinion, your thoughts. When a 646 00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:01.180 young person comes to me and says, how can I 647 00:31:01.259 --> 00:31:03.569 become someone on the Space Force? How can I become 648 00:31:03.609 --> 00:31:06.710 a guardian? they're going to be looking to you. And because, 649 00:31:06.769 --> 00:31:11.019 you know, what would you tell them as completely unironically, 650 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:14.730 you are indeed the very model of a modern major general? 651 00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:22.220 That was a long walk around the block to get 652 00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:26.759 to that. To land on Gilbert and Sullivan. 653 00:31:26.859 --> 00:31:29.819 Worth the payload, right? Worth the effort, right? 654 00:31:30.339 --> 00:31:31.519 It was good. 655 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:33.859 But the question is serious, actually. 656 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:34.579 No, I agree. 657 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:36.619 And that was a long way to, but that is awesome. 658 00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:39.349 I like that. No, what I would say is. 659 00:31:40.470 --> 00:31:44.349 Again, to join the Space Force, we see ourselves as 660 00:31:44.410 --> 00:31:45.210 a digital service. 661 00:31:45.230 --> 00:31:47.980 So I'm looking for young folks who have innovative minds, 662 00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:50.880 who want to ask why. I love three-year-olds. Ask why. 663 00:31:50.980 --> 00:31:52.599 Why do we do things the way we do? It's 664 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:53.259 a new service. 665 00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.259 We have a clean slate. We can do anything we 666 00:31:56.299 --> 00:31:59.019 want in any way we want. We value artificial intelligence, 667 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.869 machine-to-machine communication. Obviously, the whole exploration of space and where 668 00:32:02.910 --> 00:32:03.289 this is. 669 00:32:03.250 --> 00:32:03.730 Going to go. 670 00:32:03.930 --> 00:32:07.009 And if I were to meet a young 21-year-old graduating 671 00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:10.490 college or a young 18-year-old entering college, I would say, hey, 672 00:32:10.750 --> 00:32:12.039 the sky is not the limit. 673 00:32:12.130 --> 00:32:12.910 It's endless. 674 00:32:13.630 --> 00:32:16.859 And there's opportunity that in their generation, they will be 675 00:32:17.099 --> 00:32:20.559 operating and living in space in their lifetime. 676 00:32:20.900 --> 00:32:24.140 And how do we go to that new frontier? So 677 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:25.259 I think it's very exciting. 678 00:32:25.579 --> 00:32:29.559 I think we're looking for educated folks with STEM degrees. Again, obviously, 679 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.259 what we do is very difficult and complex. So we're 680 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.009 looking for that academic rigor and background. to get out 681 00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:39.130 there and get after it. But innovation and asking why 682 00:32:39.190 --> 00:32:41.210 are the two key things. And I think this generation 683 00:32:41.269 --> 00:32:44.410 is stock full of it and ready to come hard 684 00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:46.069 in the Space Force. And we have not had a 685 00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:50.670 recruiting problem. It's been, we're very small and lean, purposely 686 00:32:50.769 --> 00:32:53.869 focused on mission, but we have not, we've seen, again, 687 00:32:53.910 --> 00:32:56.529 beating the doors down in every aspect to join the 688 00:32:56.569 --> 00:32:59.130 Space Force, whether that be as officers or as enlisted members. 689 00:32:59.380 --> 00:33:02.259 I need you to confirm, are the new recruits actually 690 00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:03.579 called space cadets? 691 00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.210 I mean, Just to be clear. 692 00:33:05.289 --> 00:33:06.269 No, Guardians. 693 00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:13.059 Guardians. Oh, Guardians. Sweet. Guardians. Oh man, now I wanna join. 694 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:18.420 Now I could be Star-Lord nice. Let me ask Chuck. Absolutely. 695 00:33:18.859 --> 00:33:20.500 Let me ask you, Charles, do you think the first 696 00:33:20.539 --> 00:33:23.559 person to walk on Mars is alive now? 697 00:33:24.140 --> 00:33:24.220 Yes. 698 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.819 In like elementary school? Absolutely. Yeah, okay. 699 00:33:26.839 --> 00:33:28.900 Maybe not in elementary school, maybe even in college. 700 00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:29.759 I agree. 701 00:33:30.140 --> 00:33:33.339 Whoa. Wow. Very cool. That's pretty cool. 702 00:33:33.930 --> 00:33:35.359 All right, we're going to take a quick break. We're 703 00:33:35.380 --> 00:33:38.460 going to lose Charles, Dr. Charles Liu. 704 00:33:38.740 --> 00:33:42.140 Oh, no. We got more coming in, Chuck. We're not 705 00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:43.460 going to leave you hanging here. 706 00:33:43.539 --> 00:33:46.849 Call me anytime. I'll be around. 707 00:33:48.230 --> 00:33:52.630 Charles, you will have been, are, and will ever always be. 708 00:33:52.430 --> 00:33:54.950 Our geek and chief. Yes. Live long and prosper. 709 00:33:55.009 --> 00:33:58.549 We'll be right back with the general and Lord Nice 710 00:33:58.710 --> 00:34:00.079 when StarTalk returns. 711 00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:04.970 We're back. StarTalk. We're talking about the Space Force. 712 00:34:05.569 --> 00:34:07.710 What is it? What's going on? What are they up to? 713 00:34:07.730 --> 00:34:11.969 What are their priorities? And how is it protecting all 714 00:34:12.010 --> 00:34:14.500 that we care and love about our modern lives? 715 00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:17.780 Got my co-host, Chuck. Nice, Chuck. Hey, hey, hey. Great 716 00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:18.139 to be here. 717 00:34:18.380 --> 00:34:22.860 And my special guest is

U.S. Space Force Major General 718 00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:24.500 Deanna Burt. 719 00:34:25.059 --> 00:34:27.010 Yeah. General Burt, welcome. 720 00:34:27.050 --> 00:34:29.369 This is your second segment with us, and thanks for 721 00:34:29.389 --> 00:34:34.050 hanging on and giving us this much time. We're also 722 00:34:34.219 --> 00:34:36.829 going to bring in, in a couple of minutes, someone 723 00:34:36.889 --> 00:34:38.789 who is now, I get to call him a veteran 724 00:34:38.949 --> 00:34:44.309 of StarTalk. We have Professor Moribud Jha. He's an associate 725 00:34:44.349 --> 00:34:48.300 professor in the Department of Aerospace Engineering and Engineering Mechanics 726 00:34:48.449 --> 00:34:52.739 at UT Austin. And I think in terms of what 727 00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:55.960 he specializes in, we get to call him an astrodynamicist 728 00:34:56.059 --> 00:34:59.199 and space environmentalist. Sounds like we're going to need some 729 00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:00.360 more of those going forward. 730 00:35:00.380 --> 00:35:00.460 Yeah. 731 00:35:01.739 --> 00:35:04.579 If environmentalism movement moves from the surface of the Earth 732 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:08.460 to space itself. But we'll get to his expertise in 733 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:12.260 a minute. I just wanna work our way into that 734 00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:17.139 and ask, General, when we think of space warfare, we're 735 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:21.679 not always thinking of sort of machines that would like 736 00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:25.429 turn off the switch of a satellite or redirect it. 737 00:35:25.659 --> 00:35:30.110 We're thinking of weapons that destroy. And you mentioned in 738 00:35:30.130 --> 00:35:34.530 the second segment, Was it 2007, the Chinese sort of 739 00:35:35.010 --> 00:35:36.949 did a kinetic kill on one of their own satellites? 740 00:35:36.969 --> 00:35:40.280 I think we did shortly after that as well. So 741 00:35:40.579 --> 00:35:45.480 what does that mean for the present and future of 742 00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:46.599 the space environment? 743 00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.860 Well, I think it's, again, as I said earlier, no 744 00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:52.059 one wants a war that extends into space because those 745 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:55.139 types of weapons, particularly anti-satellite weapons that we talked about, 746 00:35:55.179 --> 00:35:57.789 create huge debris fields that affect everyone. 747 00:35:58.429 --> 00:35:59.949 And so again, not good. 748 00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:02.969 So what we have to prevent against is how do 749 00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:05.530 we work in a multi-domain? So thinking all of our 750 00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:10.159 other service partners, how would we keep that anti-satellite munition 751 00:36:10.219 --> 00:36:12.699 from launching left of launch? I don't want that to 752 00:36:12.739 --> 00:36:14.519 launch and we don't want to see that debris. So 753 00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:18.239 how would we work with all the other services in 754 00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:20.699 a joint fight to make sure that that didn't launch 755 00:36:20.860 --> 00:36:23.400 and use other capabilities? So a fight that could extend 756 00:36:23.460 --> 00:36:26.440 into space doesn't necessarily mean it has a space answer. 757 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:29.760 It could have a land or a cyber or special 758 00:36:29.880 --> 00:36:33.260 ops or another element that helps us take away that threat, 759 00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:35.599 particularly ground-based threats. 760 00:36:35.699 --> 00:36:39.699 And so while that anti-satellite weapon is en route, a 761 00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:42.110 big part of that is through Earth's atmosphere. So you 762 00:36:42.150 --> 00:36:44.929 might expect the Air Force to have something to say 763 00:36:44.969 --> 00:36:47.929 about that and want to jump in and help protect 764 00:36:47.949 --> 00:36:48.769 you on the bottom end. 765 00:36:50.070 --> 00:36:50.349 Could be. 766 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:53.000 I think the other piece is how do we also 767 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:54.840 make ourself resilient on orbit? 768 00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:56.559 How do I make myself a hard target? 769 00:36:56.619 --> 00:36:58.559 How do I get those indications and warning that if 770 00:36:58.619 --> 00:37:01.619 in fact it does a launch, how do I confuse 771 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.219 the seeker or the end game to hit me so 772 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:05.949 that there's a miss? 773 00:37:06.750 --> 00:37:09.969 So you want to duck is what you're saying. 774 00:37:10.110 --> 00:37:11.409 You want to duck and cover. 775 00:37:11.590 --> 00:37:15.349 We've heard that one before many decades ago. One more 776 00:37:15.389 --> 00:37:20.809 question before we bring in our astrodynamicist. is the uh 777 00:37:21.690 --> 00:37:23.880 the when we took out our own satellite if i 778 00:37:23.909 --> 00:37:28.380 remember if memory serves it was relatively lower in orbit 779 00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.639 so that most if not all of the debris that 780 00:37:31.699 --> 00:37:35.639 we created has already fallen out of orbit whereas the 781 00:37:35.739 --> 00:37:38.909 chinese satellite was much higher up with as much less 782 00:37:38.929 --> 00:37:42.530 air resistance to drag it down and burn up am 783 00:37:42.570 --> 00:37:44.570 i am i remembering this correctly. 784 00:37:44.710 --> 00:37:48.150 No absolutely uh As you will recall, the satellite that 785 00:37:48.230 --> 00:37:51.630 we shot down was a large dead satellite that was reentering, 786 00:37:52.110 --> 00:37:53.590 and it was such a size and the amount of 787 00:37:53.630 --> 00:37:55.170 fuel that was on it, we were worried about it 788 00:37:55.429 --> 00:37:59.630 reentering intact and hurting the population. So again, hit it 789 00:37:59.710 --> 00:38:02.050 at a much lower orbit, as you said, such that 790 00:38:02.070 --> 00:38:05.539 the debris and gravity would work for us and bring 791 00:38:05.579 -->

00:38:08.050 it all in or burn it up in smaller pieces. 792 00:38:08.090 --> 00:38:10.349 So that's exactly what we did. The Chinese, again, did 793 00:38:10.389 --> 00:38:12.889 that more in a higher orbit, in low Earth orbit, 794 00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:15.610 and it then pushed debris up into other regimes as 795 00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:17.769 well as into low Earth orbit. And as I said earlier, 796 00:38:17.809 --> 00:38:20.070 we're still tracking debris from that and will be for 797 00:38:20.090 --> 00:38:20.840 decades to come. 798 00:38:21.340 --> 00:38:24.659 See, now what you just explained there, I believe is 799 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:31.019 called American exceptionalism. Okay. Thank you very much. Even when 800 00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:33.250 we blow stuff up, we're cleaner about it. That's what 801 00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:38.329 you just said. It's also called thinking ahead. So I 802 00:38:38.369 --> 00:38:40.849 just don't even understand how the Chinese could do something 803 00:38:40.869 --> 00:38:41.170 like that. 804 00:38:41.829 --> 00:38:44.860 So let's bring in Professor Jha. Just so you know, Professor, 805 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:46.989 the good general here has. 806 00:38:49.070 --> 00:38:53.179 Bestowed a new title on our comedian. So Chuck Nice 807 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:55.739 is now Lord Nice, and she refers to him as 808 00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:58.460 the Lordship. We will require that of you for this 809 00:38:58.659 --> 00:39:01.079 remaining segment, just so you know. 810 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.519 Absolutely, I'm here to serve the Lord. 811 00:39:05.739 --> 00:39:06.869 So, Dr. 812 00:39:06.889 --> 00:39:09.429 Jha, how many satellites are in orbit, approximately? 813 00:39:10.010 --> 00:39:10.670 Dead and living. 814 00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:15.260 Okay, well, so if we talk about dead and living, look, 815 00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:20.289 we're talking upwards of like, you know, six to 10,000 816 00:39:20.289 --> 00:39:24.570 of these things, dead and living. But the living is 4,000. 817 00:39:24.570 --> 00:39:27.300 But if we include the dead stuff, then, 10,000 or so. 818 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:32.300 Total stuff is like 30,000 things, but most of the 30,000 819 00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:35.559 things aren't complete satellites. They're fragments and that. 820 00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.710 Sort of stuff. So wait, are you telling me we're tracking, 821 00:39:38.869 --> 00:39:41.909 and this is for both of you, Major General and Dr. Jha, 822 00:39:42.750 --> 00:39:46.789 are we tracking and how far down can we track 823 00:39:46.849 --> 00:39:49.940 in terms of size These, some of this has to 824 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.940 be debris. Some of it has, as you say, the 825 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.880 dead things. What can we track? 826 00:39:56.380 --> 00:39:59.340 Yeah, so look, I mean, so the largest thing clearly 827 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:01.090 is the space station, right? So we don't have an 828 00:40:01.179 --> 00:40:04.429 issue with that. But when we go on the smaller stuff. 829 00:40:04.809 --> 00:40:06.710 But just to be clear, the space station is the 830 00:40:06.750 --> 00:40:07.769 size of a football field. 831 00:40:08.099 --> 00:40:14.449 So goodness to sake, we can track that. That's good 832 00:40:14.469 --> 00:40:15.710 to hear. 833 00:40:15.750 --> 00:40:18.449 Right. If we can't do that, we're in big trouble. 834 00:40:18.489 --> 00:40:19.210 We're in big trouble. 835 00:40:19.650 --> 00:40:22.769 I think I could track that with a pair of binoculars. Exactly. 836 00:40:23.769 --> 00:40:25.489 With a pair of binoculars from my roof. 837 00:40:26.329 --> 00:40:29.130 So this is what I'm calling, it's not even low-hanging fruit, Chuck. 838 00:40:29.309 --> 00:40:31.829 This is like fruit on the ground turning rancid, right, 839 00:40:31.909 --> 00:40:35.719 is your ability to like, yeah. But, yeah, the smaller stuff, really, 840 00:40:35.900 --> 00:40:40.019 we're talking about softball size. Oh, God. Is really kind 841 00:40:40.059 --> 00:40:44.019 of the smaller stuff. And people clearly want to be 842 00:40:44.059 --> 00:40:47.400 able to get to, like, you know, golf ball size things, 843 00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:49.219 but that's really hard to do. So I would say 844 00:40:49.300 --> 00:40:52.260 softball size is kind of on the smaller range of things. 845 00:40:52.820 --> 00:40:55.670 So I'll ask you... Wait, wait. I'm sorry, Neil. Because 846 00:40:55.710 --> 00:40:57.730 now I'm scared to death from what you just said. 847 00:40:58.050 --> 00:41:03.860 Softball size things traveling at 17,000 miles an hour. That's crazy. So... uh. 848 00:41:05.219 --> 00:41:10.400 Wait, Charles, anything traveling. Chuck, anything traveling in 70,000 miles. 849 00:41:10.539 --> 00:41:12.980 I don't want to get hit by a softball or 850 00:41:13.000 --> 00:41:13.780 a golf ball. 851 00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:16.219 That's true, exactly. I got a feeling you won't be 852 00:41:16.300 --> 00:41:25.059 taking a base. But here's what scares me. What do 853 00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.519 you do when you track it and you find out 854 00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:32.260 that it might become injurious to something else? Then what? Okay, 855 00:41:32.699 --> 00:41:34.639 this is going to hit whatever. Now what? 856 00:41:34.969 --> 00:41:38.030 For the things we track, again, as he mentioned, softball 857 00:41:38.050 --> 00:41:38.590 size and lower. 858 00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:41.269 The only thing I would say is, again, I said earlier, 32,000 859 00:41:41.269 --> 00:41:44.829 objects is what we're tracking today, roughly, and 5,000 active. 860 00:41:45.369 --> 00:41:48.059 So when we talk about active versus inactive, so if 861 00:41:48.099 --> 00:41:51.480 it's two inactive objects, hey, we're watching crash up derby occur. 862 00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:52.539 There's not much to do. 863 00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:55.440 We just have to watch the two objects, what we 864

00:41:55.460 --> 00:41:57.920 call conjunct or hit each other. And we predict that 865 00:41:57.980 --> 00:42:00.670 and we watch that closely because then that creates more debris, right? 866 00:42:00.710 --> 00:42:01.210 When they hit. 867 00:42:01.989 --> 00:42:04.630 If it's a live object and a dead object, obviously 868 00:42:04.670 --> 00:42:07.829 we're contacting the owner operator of the live object and 869 00:42:07.869 --> 00:42:12.159 giving them that information and asking them for consideration for 870 00:42:12.219 --> 00:42:14.300 move to protect their payload. This is called safety of 871 00:42:14.340 --> 00:42:16.940 flight operations that we do here every day at the 872 00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:18.400 Combined Space Operations Center. 873 00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:21.099 We have to tell people, you got to tell people, 874 00:42:21.820 --> 00:42:26.469 if I understand correctly, almost all satellites retain a little 875 00:42:26.510 --> 00:42:31.119 bit of reserve fuel to adjust their position, either to 876 00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:34.059 give themselves a new boost because the atmosphere is dragging 877 00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:35.590 on them or to avoid a collision. 878 00:42:35.630 --> 00:42:36.190 Is that correct? 879 00:42:36.690 --> 00:42:37.170 Absolutely. 880 00:42:37.489 --> 00:42:39.380 So everyone has a certain amount of gas and what 881 00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:41.480 they can maneuver or not. And again, when we talk 882 00:42:41.500 --> 00:42:43.739 to those owner operators of those active satellites, what kind 883 00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:45.519 of gas budget do they have and can they move? 884 00:42:46.300 --> 00:42:49.780 If it's two live objects, again, we make the notification 885 00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:52.599 to both owner operators and then the discussion is. 886 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:54.340 Between the two of how they're going to move. 887 00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.440 We do this with both the Chinese, the Russians, commercial, 888 00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:00.639 our coalition partners. It doesn't matter who you are. That 889 00:43:00.739 --> 00:43:03.239 mission is done every day from the Combined Space Operations 890 00:43:03.260 --> 00:43:04.769 Center here at Vandenberg Space Force Base. 891 00:43:05.170 --> 00:43:07.230 Wow. Mm-mm-mm. 892 00:43:07.730 --> 00:43:12.409 So, Professor Jha, we all saw the movie Gravity, okay? 893 00:43:12.739 --> 00:43:14.739 And that was a documentary, I'm told. 894 00:43:14.840 --> 00:43:15.539 It's just. 895 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:20.860 Well, you know, anytime Sandra Bullock and Clooney are in that, 896 00:43:20.980 --> 00:43:22.420 for sure it's got to be educational. 897 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:24.679 Educational. 898 00:43:24.860 --> 00:43:27.760 So, my favorite is that he comes up to the 899 00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:29.920 spaceship and is knocking on the outside door, but she 900 00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:31.760 was imagining it, but that was just a funny little scene. 901 00:43:31.780

--> 00:43:32.179 That's right. 902 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:38.059 So, in that, they do, however... portray a very real effect. 903 00:43:39.260 --> 00:43:41.409 And I'm told it's called the Kessler effect. Could you 904 00:43:41.449 --> 00:43:42.929 just briefly tell us what that is? 905 00:43:43.250 --> 00:43:47.090 Yeah, so look, there's this gentleman, Don Kessler, worked for 906 00:43:47.110 --> 00:43:50.849 NASA for a long time, came up with this hypothesis 907 00:43:50.949 --> 00:43:57.480 that given the increase in crowding of things on orbit 908 00:43:57.619 --> 00:44:01.090 and things going bumping in the night, that there would 909 00:44:01.110 --> 00:44:04.170 be a tipping point, as it were, where even if 910 00:44:04.210 --> 00:44:08.150 you didn't launch anything else, the population is self-growing because 911 00:44:08.230 --> 00:44:11.269 things keep on colliding and you can't prevent those collisions 912 00:44:11.309 --> 00:44:15.099 from happening. So that's, I think, loosely what people understand 913 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:17.880 as this Kessler effect or Kessler syndrome. 914 00:44:19.219 --> 00:44:21.880 So that would mean that there's a catastrophic point where 915 00:44:22.409 --> 00:44:25.050 it's just a roller derby up there and everything, or 916 00:44:25.070 --> 00:44:28.929 a space derby, everything is colliding, making more and more debris, 917 00:44:29.329 --> 00:44:34.000 colliding even more, and then all space assets gets completely 918 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:34.440 wiped out. 919 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.500 A never-ending chain reaction. Right, right. Isn't that kind of 920 00:44:37.539 --> 00:44:38.440 a chain reaction thing? 921 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:43.500 Well, so this is where people that fully embrace the 922 00:44:43.539 --> 00:44:46.880 Kessler syndrome would say, yes, it's this chain reaction, never-ending. 923 00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:51.639 I'm not a big believer in never ending things. So 924 00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:54.289 I would say that equilibrium at some point would be reached. 925 00:44:54.849 --> 00:44:59.909 But equilibrium can also mean orbits become unusable. So the 926 00:44:59.949 --> 00:45:03.150 end effect is an orbit becoming unusable. And clearly, we 927 00:45:03.170 --> 00:45:04.349 don't want to see that happen. 928 00:45:05.570 --> 00:45:08.389 But I think that's only unusable. So I guess I'm 929 00:45:08.409 --> 00:45:11.630 not a fatalist in that it's all going to be terrible. Yes, 930 00:45:11.670 --> 00:45:13.670 we care about this as the military. But I think 931 00:45:13.849 --> 00:45:15.909 one is being an owner operator. And as you said, sir, 932 00:45:16.369 --> 00:45:19.070 having the gas to be able to control your satellite 933 00:45:19.110 --> 00:45:21.889 and do orbit and station keeping properly, and when notified, 934 00:45:21.929 --> 00:45:26.159 being a good operator of your capability. Second is when 935 00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:28.659 you get to what we would call your min fuel 936 00:45:28.739 --> 00:45:31.760 to deorbit or move to an unusable orbit, you're able 937 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:34.030 to do that. And that's what we would say is 938 00:45:34.070 --> 00:45:36.809 that norms of behavior of how you should operate day-to-day 939 00:45:37.190 --> 00:45:39.269 So it's free and fair for all. Lastly, I would 940 00:45:39.289 --> 00:45:41.269 say we were just at Space Symposium last week and 941 00:45:41.309 --> 00:45:44.840 a lot of discussion about debris removal. So I think 942 00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:48.719 this Kessler discussion also posits that you wouldn't have any 943 00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:51.659 debris or trash truck capability to go pick up debris. 944 00:45:52.699 --> 00:45:57.929 I think that's absolutely a business case for industry and commercial. 945 00:45:58.269 --> 00:46:00.710 Because again, I go back to if the military were 946 00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:02.929 to do that, let's say I have an arm that 947 00:46:02.969 --> 00:46:05.670 goes and picks up trash or does things, it could. 948 00:46:05.570 --> 00:46:07.610 Be dual use. So you don't want that to come 949 00:46:07.670 --> 00:46:09.030 from a military perspective. 950 00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:11.650 You want that to come from industry and commercial to 951 00:46:11.670 --> 00:46:13.889 be the trash trucks or the pickup and to be 952 00:46:13.929 --> 00:46:16.369 fully transparent. And they would be asked to service and 953 00:46:16.409 --> 00:46:19.050 go pick up things or put more gas on something 954 00:46:19.159 --> 00:46:23.380 that's capable of continuing mission, but has run out of 955 00:46:23.420 --> 00:46:26.039 something that's like a propellant that it needs more gas. 956 00:46:26.059 --> 00:46:28.559 So I think there's options here to not be so fatalistic. 957 00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:31.840 We just haven't produced the technologies yet. 958 00:46:31.699 --> 00:46:32.139 To get there. 959 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.880 So what about other things that could slam into satellites 960 00:46:35.940 --> 00:46:40.239 or even into Earth, like asteroid threats? The Hubble telescope 961 00:46:40.280 --> 00:46:44.039 itself has a safe mode where the lid closes and 962 00:46:44.059 --> 00:46:51.409 it turns its sensitive underbelly towards Earth during meteor showers 963 00:46:51.650 --> 00:46:56.030 of high expectation so that the micrometeoroids that come through 964 00:46:56.090 --> 00:47:01.610 and light up the sky would have a minimum lasting, quote, impact. 965 00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:06.250 on the telescope if it hit. So in your portfolio 966 00:47:06.309 --> 00:47:10.230 of things to worry about beyond Russia, China, and possibly 967 00:47:10.349 --> 00:47:18.389 other adversaries, do you have natural disasters on your list? 968 00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:22.019 Oh, absolutely. Every day in the environment, as you know, Dr. 969 00:47:22.059 --> 00:47:26.440 Tyson, the environment is very harsh from solar flares, various 970

00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:30.840 emissions from the sun. that impact the satellites, as you mentioned, asteroids, 971 00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:33.460 those kinds of things. We work closely with NASA to 972 00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.610 be able to predict and talk to those meteor showers. Again, 973 00:47:36.630 --> 00:47:38.949 that's more in their wheelhouse of tracking and how they 974 00:47:38.969 --> 00:47:41.630 do deep space work. But that is shared with us. 975 00:47:42.369 --> 00:47:44.510 And again, we work to how do we protect our payloads? 976 00:47:44.690 --> 00:47:47.150 Just as you talked about flipping the Hubble, we would 977 00:47:47.170 --> 00:47:49.030 be looking at those same kind of options to limit 978 00:47:49.070 --> 00:47:50.800 any damage to our capabilities as well. 979 00:47:51.079 --> 00:47:57.139 Is there any kind of regulatory global commission that tells 980 00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.039 people what countries, what they can and cannot do. I 981 00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:03.940 remember China, they de-orbited a satellite or something. I don't 982 00:48:03.980 --> 00:48:06.300 know what it was, but they were like, oh yeah, 983 00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:07.539 by the way, we don't know where it's going to 984 00:48:07.579 --> 00:48:11.719 come down. I remember that. Remember that? I mean, yeah. 985 00:48:11.860 --> 00:48:12.659 Like who, who? 986 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:13.300 Yeah. 987 00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:14.659 So he's kind of watching. No, no, no. 988 00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:16.599 It wasn't just that. It wasn't just that, Chuck. They 989 00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:22.079 launched the booster. And Professor Jock, correct me if I'm wrong, 990 00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:26.539 they had a booster that did not contain the capacity 991 00:48:26.739 --> 00:48:29.900 to control its descent back to Earth, and which leaves 992 00:48:29.940 --> 00:48:32.800 it kind of random. Professor, did I get that right? 993 00:48:33.139 --> 00:48:35.940 Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And so look, I mean, 994 00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:39.389 we have international law codified in things like Outer Space 995 00:48:39.469 --> 00:48:41.829 Treaty and conventions with the UN and all that other stuff. 996 00:48:41.889 --> 00:48:46.510 But the language is widely interpreted, and the implementation is 997 00:48:48.030 --> 00:48:49.630 randomly assessed at best. 998 00:48:49.710 --> 00:48:51.329 And isn't that from 1968 or something? Yeah, 1967, right. 999 00:48:51.449 --> 00:48:51.550 Wow. 1000 00:48:56.719 --> 00:48:56.980 I know. 1001 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.039 The only other argument I would offer that other regulatory 1002 00:49:00.099 --> 00:49:02.920 organizations that are involved, obviously you have the FCC, the 1003 00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:05.619 Federal Communications Commission. So again, when we start talking about 1004 00:49:05.659 --> 00:49:08.960 satellite communications, whether they be in low Earth orbit or 1005 00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:12.969 geosynchronous orbit, the deconfliction of frequency so people aren't stepping 1006 00:49:13.050 --> 00:49:18.690 on each other or interfering with each other intentionally as 1007 00:49:18.730 --> 00:49:20.699 we work the design. The other one is the International 1008 00:49:20.780 --> 00:49:24.800 Telecommunications Union, and that's who decides the, has the slots. 1009 00:49:24.780 --> 00:49:25.300 Out at geo. 1010 00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:29.650 So every one degree out in the geosynchronous belt are 1011 00:49:29.769 --> 00:49:30.489 slots that. 1012 00:49:30.389 --> 00:49:31.230 People can. 1013 00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:34.809 Go out and register for and co-locate together. So there 1014 00:49:34.829 --> 00:49:37.289 are multiple satellites that fly in that one degree box, 1015 00:49:37.750 --> 00:49:40.010 and basically station, keep and operate day in and day 1016 00:49:40.070 --> 00:49:40.570 out together. 1017 00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:41.820 So it can be done. 1018 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.460 I think some of the concerns moving forward is the 1019 00:49:44.500 --> 00:49:48.530 proliferation of low earth orbit. Like we talked about Starlink 1020 00:49:48.610 --> 00:49:52.139 and OneWeb, And on the order of, I think, Starlink, 1021 00:49:52.500 --> 00:49:56.199 I heard yesterday their new satellite registry that they're trying to. 1022 00:49:56.179 --> 00:49:59.380 Do with the FCC is 25,000 satellites in low Earth orbit. 1023 00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:00.059 Yeah. 1024 00:50:00.099 --> 00:50:00.659 That's a lot. 1025 00:50:00.900 --> 00:50:03.360 That's pretty crazy. So how do. 1026 00:50:03.320 --> 00:50:06.739 You regulate how they operate in that domain? And again, 1027 00:50:06.780 --> 00:50:09.010 that station keeping, and so we don't get this Kessler 1028 00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:12.369 effect we talked about earlier. So again, how do you 1029 00:50:12.429 --> 00:50:14.349 regulate that? This is some of the part I talked 1030 00:50:14.389 --> 00:50:17.519 about earlier, Dr. Tyson, about why the Department of Commerce 1031 00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:20.090 and being the owner of space traffic management and getting 1032 00:50:20.110 --> 00:50:23.179 them on board will be important. The Department of Defense 1033 00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:25.679 has played that role and will continue to do so 1034 00:50:26.340 --> 00:50:28.389 and partner with the Department of Commerce as they stand up. 1035 00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:30.820 But you can see the value that we needed. There's 1036 00:50:30.860 --> 00:50:34.849 a regulatory requirement and even international regulatory element, kind of 1037 00:50:34.869 --> 00:50:38.030 like the FAA is for air. We need that same 1038 00:50:38.050 --> 00:50:38.730 thing for space. 1039 00:50:38.989 --> 00:50:43.809 Yeah, but I think getting to the Lordship's point, there 1040 00:50:43.869 --> 00:50:47.090 is no global Star Trek Federation that's going to do this. 1041 00:50:47.170 --> 00:50:50.409 It's all up to individual

countries. So the countries actually 1042 00:50:50.429 --> 00:50:53.570 have to get together and say, we are the bottleneck 1043 00:50:53.610 --> 00:50:56.369 to all this stuff. And we are the ones that 1044 00:50:56.409 --> 00:51:00.409 are responsible for providing authorization and continuing supervision of all 1045 00:51:00.449 --> 00:51:03.409 these folks. Let's agree to a set of standards, norms 1046 00:51:03.469 --> 00:51:07.449 of behavior that we can then hold our people accountable to. 1047 00:51:07.610 --> 00:51:09.460 And I think on the one point that the general 1048 00:51:09.500 --> 00:51:12.800 made really quick on the dual use type stuff, look, 1049 00:51:13.119 --> 00:51:15.840 when you go with commercial people that have the grappling arms, 1050 00:51:16.449 --> 00:51:19.269 That's also dual use technology. So I think the main 1051 00:51:19.309 --> 00:51:22.519 thing is when I was a security policeman guarding nukes 1052 00:51:22.699 --> 00:51:26.440 at Malmstrom, I was taught a threat required intent, opportunity, 1053 00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:29.980 and capability. So the thing that really separates hazard from 1054 00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:33.079 threat is the intent piece. So what kind of behaviors 1055 00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.869 can we put in place to basically put away this 1056 00:51:36.050 --> 00:51:38.590 threat stuff so we don't assume that everything is out 1057 00:51:38.630 --> 00:51:42.230 to get us necessarily because the capability and opportunity for 1058 00:51:42.289 --> 00:51:45.309 harm are always going to be present with dual use technologies. 1059 00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:47.480 So Dr. Jha brings up a great point. 1060 00:51:47.900 --> 00:51:51.900 It's understanding space domain awareness, not just space traffic management. 1061 00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.440 Space domain awareness is more ISR, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance 1062 00:51:55.500 --> 00:51:57.719 in space. What is your pattern of life? How do 1063 00:51:57.760 --> 00:52:00.800 you normally operate? Is this unusual for you? Is this 1064 00:52:00.820 --> 00:52:04.230 your norm? How do you typically station keep? All of 1065 00:52:04.289 --> 00:52:07.750 those things play into that space domain awareness over the 1066 00:52:07.789 --> 00:52:09.829 domain for all the players that are there. And when 1067 00:52:09.889 --> 00:52:12.909 something is or doesn't seem as it should be, then 1068 00:52:12.949 --> 00:52:15.550 that's when this discussion of norms of behavior happens. having 1069 00:52:15.590 --> 00:52:18.110 defined what is good, now if we see something that 1070 00:52:18.170 --> 00:52:20.929 is bad, how are we going to respond? And did 1071 00:52:20.989 --> 00:52:24.590 it rise to the occasion of that it needs a military, diplomatic, 1072 00:52:24.710 --> 00:52:27.010 or any of the instruments of power that the nation 1073 00:52:27.030 --> 00:52:27.690 can bring to bear? 1074 00:52:28.110 --> 00:52:29.269 That's really cool. 1075 00:52:29.530 --> 00:52:33.590 Very important facts there, that just the existence of what 1076 00:52:34.349 --> 00:52:37.530 could be a threat if there's no intent, that is 1077 00:52:37.570 --> 00:52:40.130 a conversation, that's an analysis. And that's where I don't 1078 00:52:40.150 --> 00:52:43.289 trust AI. I think people have to be in that equation. 1079 00:52:43.409 --> 00:52:44.289 AI is stupid. 1080 00:52:44.469 --> 00:52:46.190 I mean, AI is about as smart as. 1081 00:52:46.130 --> 00:52:52.309 An earthworm, man. SI, stupid intelligence. That's a whole other show, 1082 00:52:52.369 --> 00:52:53.650 by the way. We're going to have to call it 1083 00:52:53.690 --> 00:52:55.889 quits there. We ran over. Fascinating. 1084 00:52:56.070 --> 00:52:58.389 Professor Jha, great to have you on again. 1085 00:52:58.409 --> 00:52:59.260 Thank you. 1086 00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:02.559 And General Burt, a delight to meet you for the 1087 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:05.119 first time. And I hope this is not the last 1088 00:53:05.179 --> 00:53:09.039 time we see you. We will have continuing questions about 1089 00:53:09.469 --> 00:53:13.800 this domain and what it means to Earth, to Americans, 1090 00:53:13.820 --> 00:53:16.639 and to the future of space exploration. 1091 00:53:16.659 --> 00:53:18.659 Now, can I tell people that I know a two-star 1092 00:53:18.699 --> 00:53:20.079 general now? Is that OK with you? 1093 00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:22.019 Absolutely. And that at $ 0. 1094 00:53:21.820 --> 00:53:23.900 50, I'll get you a cup of coffee. 1095 00:53:24.019 --> 00:53:27.389 All right. And Chuck, you just got to earn this. 1096 00:53:27.429 --> 00:53:32.710 She was describing one-degree boxes out there on the geosynchronous. 1097 00:53:32.929 --> 00:53:36.550 So how many boxes are there? Well, it's round, so 1098 00:53:36.590 --> 00:53:38.710 it's got to be 360. Very good. 1099 00:53:38.769 --> 00:53:39.289 Okay. 1100 00:53:39.730 --> 00:53:41.289 Just checking it. 1101 00:53:41.989 --> 00:53:44.210 I knew he was leading you in that direction. 1102 00:53:44.309 --> 00:53:46.570 Chuck, you got one. You earned your lordship today. 1103 00:53:46.809 --> 00:53:48.469 Yes, he earned Star-Lord right there. 1104 00:53:48.650 --> 00:53:50.909 Star-Lord. I love it. I love it. All right. 1105 00:53:50.929 --> 00:53:53.219 We really got to end it right there. Thank you 1106 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:55.699 all for making this work and making it informative and 1107 00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:58.960 even fun. Neil deGrasse Tyson here for StarTalk. 1108 00:53:59.059 --> 00:54:00.550 As always, keep looking up.