บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Nature or Nurture with Eli Manning and Dr. Angela Duckworth

00:04:11.199 at no time did you feel pressure, you know, that 73 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.960 parental pressure. That's my boy out there. He's going to 74 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:17.360 check him out. And then now you've got to perform 75 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:22.420 because otherwise you'll disappoint your parents. So what was that relationship? 76 00:04:22.579 --> 00:04:26.930 You know, my dad loved for us to play sports. 77 00:04:26.970 --> 00:04:29.129 He played sports. And, you know, growing up, there was 78 00:04:29.149 --> 00:04:32.110 an important part of his life. But more on the facts. 79 00:04:32.129 --> 00:04:34.550 Because he was pro. He was a professional. He played 80 00:04:34.550 --> 00:04:37.230 14 years in the NFL. He played baseball in college 81 00:04:37.629 --> 00:04:39.949 as well. And so he just, you know, grew up 82 00:04:39.990 --> 00:04:42.410 playing sports as a young boy. And so he just 83 00:04:42.449 --> 00:04:46.670 thought it built great character. It built, you know, just 84 00:04:46.689 --> 00:04:49.319 a good work ethic. It helped with, you know, teamwork 85 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:52.379 and dealing with the good and the bad that happened 86 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.019 to you in life. And so he wanted us to 87 00:04:55.060 --> 00:04:58.319 play sports. But his rule was, he says, you know, 88 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.160 you have to ask me. You know, so we had 89 00:05:01.180 --> 00:05:04.170 to ask him. to go throw the football with us 90 00:05:04.230 --> 00:05:06.790 or go shoot hoops with us or go make catch. 91 00:05:06.850 --> 00:05:08.490 It was not the other way around. We had to 92 00:05:08.529 --> 00:05:11.250 be in charge of our own athletic. 93 00:05:11.290 --> 00:05:12.129 And your own initiative. 94 00:05:12.180 --> 00:05:14.560 And our own initiative. It had to start from us. 95 00:05:14.769 --> 00:05:17.939 And if we asked him, he would drop and go 96 00:05:18.019 --> 00:05:18.379 out there. 97 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:21.500 That is the complete opposite of the way most parents 98 00:05:21.699 --> 00:05:22.220 run that play. 99 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:22.379 Okay. 100 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:24.660 I know. 101 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.670 It's like you're playing. We're going to catch today whether 102 00:05:28.689 --> 00:05:29.230 you like. 103 00:05:29.110 --> 00:05:31.089 It or not. Get out here right now. We got 104 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:33.449 to catch 100 balls. You make 100 free throws. I 105 00:05:33.470 --> 00:05:35.589 think the fact that he I mean, he he lived 106 00:05:35.610 --> 00:05:38.790 his athletic career like he wasn't trying to live his 107 00:05:38.829 --> 00:05:41.779 sports life through us. He did his own. He had 108 00:05:41.779 --> 00:05:43.920 14 years in the NFL. He was just trying to 109 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:48.589 raise three boys to be good kids, do well in school. And, 110 00:05:48.750 --> 00:05:52.350 you know, create a, you know, make sports being positive 111

00:05:52.410 --> 00:05:54.269 and fun. And that's how I think he was raised. 112 00:05:54.290 --> 00:05:55.600 And so he tried to do the same with us. 113 00:05:55.860 --> 00:05:59.339 So, Angela, this sounds like the ideal environment to not 114 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:03.740 have the pressure, but still have the tap roots to grow. 115 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:07.519 So is this the kind of family that that works 116 00:06:07.540 --> 00:06:07.759 for you? 117 00:06:08.170 --> 00:06:10.170 I think this is not only the kind of family 118 00:06:10.269 --> 00:06:15.910 that raises two quarterbacks who have storied careers, but it's 119 00:06:15.949 --> 00:06:19.610 just the kind of family that raises great kids. This 120 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:25.680 clip reminds me of one of the core tenets of 121 00:06:25.899 --> 00:06:29.120 motivational psychology and also what we know about the science 122 00:06:29.139 --> 00:06:32.029 of parenting today. which is that human beings of all ages, 123 00:06:32.129 --> 00:06:37.069 but especially kids, have a huge need for autonomy, the 124 00:06:37.209 --> 00:06:40.449 ability to make the choice, the ability to say, you know, 125 00:06:40.470 --> 00:06:43.930 I want to do this, not that. And this need 126 00:06:43.949 --> 00:06:47.269 for autonomy is, in a way, you think, well, that's 127 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:50.709 kind of obvious. It's like the opposite of tiger parenting, 128 00:06:51.069 --> 00:06:55.649 which is actually what a lot of people mistakenly think 129 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:58.800 is that, you know, the, the roots of greatness is 130 00:06:58.819 --> 00:07:01.560 that you have some parent who's like making you do 131 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:03.879 all these hard things that, you know, 15 years later, 132 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:07.860 you're glad that they forced you to do that. And 133 00:07:07.899 --> 00:07:11.850 in fact, the research is unequivocal that, um, when you 134 00:07:12.370 --> 00:07:16.110 take away choices from your kids, um, they, they lose 135 00:07:16.149 --> 00:07:19.629 intrinsic motivation and, you know, you can keep them going 136 00:07:19.709 --> 00:07:23.029 for a while just by like browbeating them into practicing 137 00:07:23.069 --> 00:07:25.949 their piano or whatever. but they'll never be great. I 138 00:07:25.990 --> 00:07:28.389 think that's one of the things that I would say 139 00:07:28.449 --> 00:07:30.310 also of my research, that when you look into the 140 00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:34.490 childhoods of people who eventually become great, it's hard to 141 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:38.560 find evidence of this kind of coercive parenting that some 142 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:39.699 people call tiger parenting. 143 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:45.660 What if you actually recognize in your child a gift, 144 00:07:45.860 --> 00:07:49.240 if you want to call it that, a certain proclivity towards. 145 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:52.899 In an area. And you don't want them to squander it. 146

00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.439 And so you're just like, hey, man, no, you got 147 00:07:55.459 --> 00:07:57.310 to do this. But then they catch on to the 148 00:07:57.329 --> 00:07:59.670 fact that they are great. And then that kind of 149 00:08:00.029 --> 00:08:01.560 gets the ball rolling and they take over. 150 00:08:02.730 --> 00:08:03.730 How often does that happen? 151 00:08:03.750 --> 00:08:05.930 Okay, so Chuck's bringing up a really good point. I 152 00:08:05.930 --> 00:08:08.410 want to actually say there's two things. I mean, so 153 00:08:08.829 --> 00:08:12.540 rule number one for parenting is respect for autonomy, right? 154 00:08:12.620 --> 00:08:16.680 Respect for the autonomy of your kid. But there's two, 155 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:21.490 I don't know, corollaries or like footnotes, asterisks, because it's 156 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:23.750 not that easy, right? Anybody who's been a parent knows 157 00:08:23.790 --> 00:08:27.370 that you have to occasionally, like tell your kids to 158 00:08:27.410 --> 00:08:29.389 do things that they don't want to do. So that's, 159 00:08:29.709 --> 00:08:32.720 you know, in a way not respecting their autonomy, right? Like, no, 160 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:35.159 you can't cross the street right now. Like, no, you 161 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.580 can't take that. But here are the two asterisks I 162 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:40.179 want to put on the like need for autonomy parenting advice. 163 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:42.830 One is that once your kid is committed, you know, 164 00:08:42.850 --> 00:08:45.639 to football or whatever, you know, like I'm going to 165 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:47.970 be on the school newspaper this year, et cetera. I 166 00:08:48.070 --> 00:08:51.029 do think, and this is also from my own parenting experience. Um, 167 00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:53.289 cause I've got an 18 and 19 year old, um, 168 00:08:53.350 --> 00:08:56.429 two girls, right? Like, yeah, you as a parent do 169 00:08:56.470 --> 00:09:01.220 have to enforce their decision, right? Once they have said autonomously, yeah, 170 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:03.000 I'm going to do track. 171 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:03.580 Right. 172 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:05.539 But then after the first track me, and this is 173 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:08.220 what happened to my younger daughter, Lucy, she was like, Oh, 174 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.789 change my mind. Didn't like it after all. 175 00:09:12.210 --> 00:09:12.409 Right. 176 00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:15.070 And I was like, no problem. There's only seven more 177 00:09:15.129 --> 00:09:17.980 weeks of track season and then you can make another choice. 178 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:19.929 So I do think you have to enforce the commitments. 179 00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:21.460 I mean, you know, what kid really is going to 180 00:09:21.500 --> 00:09:24.019 say like, Hey, it's a really sunny day outside. Like 181 00:09:24.059 --> 00:09:26.659 I really want to like practice this instrument, you know, 182 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:29.360 violin that I, that I said that I wanted to practice. 183 00:09:29.379 --> 00:09:31.460 So I think the first asterisk is like, yeah, parents 184 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:34.740 have to help their kids like meet their commitments, but 185 00:09:34.779 --> 00:09:37.639 the commitment comes from the kid. And the second one 186 00:09:37.700 --> 00:09:39.789 is like what you just said, Chuck, right? Like, There 187 00:09:39.870 --> 00:09:42.480 are times where, and I think, you know, I have 188 00:09:42.509 --> 00:09:44.860 a research project on this right now, but there are 189 00:09:44.899 --> 00:09:49.220 times where our confidence falters, right? It's not like there's 190 00:09:49.440 --> 00:09:52.460 no variation in your confidence, like every day you wake 191 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:54.149 up and you're like, I can do this. And I 192 00:09:54.370 --> 00:09:57.690 absolutely think that it is an enormously important thing for 193 00:09:57.710 --> 00:10:00.149 a parent or anybody else, like a coach, to say, 194 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:03.149 I know you don't believe in yourself today, and I 195 00:10:03.190 --> 00:10:04.909 know you want to quit because you don't think you 196 00:10:04.929 --> 00:10:06.950 can do this, but I'm not letting you quit on 197 00:10:06.990 --> 00:10:07.570 a bad day. 198 00:10:07.590 --> 00:10:10.379 So they're a buoyant force in what's going on. 199 00:10:10.509 --> 00:10:12.980 They're a buoyant force, especially when it comes to confidence. 200 00:10:13.009 --> 00:10:17.100 And I think very often the kid is myopic. The 201 00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:18.360 parent can see far. 202 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:22.649 Well, let's find out what makes Eli Manning tick. Let's 203 00:10:22.669 --> 00:10:27.269 go to my second clip in my exclusive conversation with 204 00:10:27.370 --> 00:10:30.409 this New York Giants football great, Eli Manning. Check it out. 205 00:10:31.169 --> 00:10:35.870 People can't stop wondering, was it in the water supply 206 00:10:35.970 --> 00:10:39.649 or in the food, in the biscuits your parents baked 207 00:10:39.769 --> 00:10:43.289 for your family, you and your brother and your father? 208 00:10:43.309 --> 00:10:45.190 And you know, there's another sibling, right? 209 00:10:45.850 --> 00:10:48.909 Our oldest brother, Cooper, played football. He was a receiver 210 00:10:49.049 --> 00:10:50.820 and then had a neck injury and had to stop. 211 00:10:50.860 --> 00:10:53.440 Oh, that's too bad. But nonetheless, all three of you 212 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:56.100 were engaged in this way. 213 00:10:56.379 --> 00:10:56.600 Yes. 214 00:10:57.139 --> 00:11:01.019 Is it the food? Is it the air you breathe? 215 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:06.190 Is it, what is your analysis? 216 00:11:06.769 --> 00:11:09.990 You know what, I think it's just a sense of, 217 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:12.860 Some people, you know, like I talked about earlier, some 218 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:15.000 people

can just, they can get a ball and they 219 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.559 can say, I'm going to throw it and hit that tree. 220 00:11:18.059 --> 00:11:21.100 And for whatever reason, without thinking about it, your body just, 221 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.940 you know, moves and you create torque and you get 222 00:11:24.019 --> 00:11:26.799 arm angle and it all just flows. And if you 223 00:11:26.820 --> 00:11:28.379 had to, if I had to think about how to 224 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:30.539 throw a football, like, what do your hips do and 225 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:32.379 what does your shoulder do? I would have no idea. 226 00:11:32.460 --> 00:11:34.480 It's like, if I had to think about it, I 227 00:11:34.539 --> 00:11:36.080 might not be able to throw it. So I just, 228 00:11:36.179 --> 00:11:37.980 you know, you just, you can just, it's just a 229 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:41.799 natural thing. Motion that we could do, and it just 230 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.519 made sense to us. And then we also enjoyed, you know, 231 00:11:45.620 --> 00:11:48.940 kind of learning about the game of football and learning 232 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:53.240 why our defense is playing this style of defense. What's 233 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.679 this coverage? What are good plays that go against this coverage? 234 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:59.259 It's kind of you're figuring out the equations, like a 235 00:11:59.299 --> 00:12:01.750 math equation. You're figuring out the answer. Hey, they play 236 00:12:01.779 --> 00:12:05.389 this defense. We run this play. We'll have success. We'll 237 00:12:05.429 --> 00:12:07.610 create that touchdown, which is kind of the final answer. 238 00:12:08.009 --> 00:12:10.250 He came at this by saying, Oh, I did this 239 00:12:10.309 --> 00:12:14.149 and it felt natural. And then he pursued what he 240 00:12:14.169 --> 00:12:18.320 would then call his natural proclivity, his natural ability. So Angela, 241 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:21.720 is there, is it fair to say that some people 242 00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:25.539 have a natural ability because, because I can practice at 243 00:12:25.580 --> 00:12:27.500 something and get better at it and nobody's going to 244 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:29.779 call it natural if I practice at it. But if 245 00:12:29.820 --> 00:12:31.600 the end result is the same, why are we even 246 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:33.039 distinguishing between the two? 247 00:12:33.620 --> 00:12:37.279 I think there's such a, you know, reflexive, you know, 248 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.960 is it innate talent or is it something that you 249 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.500 can practice? I mean, you know, very similar to the 250 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:49.129 is it nature or is it nurture dichotomy? When the 251 00:12:49.210 --> 00:12:52.889 messy truth is that it's almost got to be both, right? 252 00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:56.259 So what we know from behavioral genetics is there's nothing 253 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:59.159 about us, you

know, our ability to throw a football 254 00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:01.399 the first time that we get one in our hands or, 255 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:04.370 you know, a math equation or, you know, to like 256 00:13:04.429 --> 00:13:08.379 sing a song or to be extroverted, like literally everything 257 00:13:08.409 --> 00:13:12.909 about us has some genetic influence, the DNA that cuts 258 00:13:13.009 --> 00:13:16.950 shuffled and that we inherited from our mom, biological mom, 259 00:13:17.250 --> 00:13:20.909 and our biological dad, like it influences everything about us. 260 00:13:20.919 --> 00:13:23.019 So there's got to be an extent to which you 261 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.019 can say that the Mannings have a gene pool that 262 00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:33.690 inclines them toward that, you know, multifaceted ability that adds 263 00:13:33.730 --> 00:13:36.149 up to being a great quarterback or a great athlete. 264 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:39.519 At the same time, every single one of those things 265 00:13:39.539 --> 00:13:42.720 that I mentioned, being extroverted, being able to throw a football, 266 00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:45.580 you know, the first time you get a chance to sing, 267 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:49.409 like what happens, those things are all malleable and they 268 00:13:49.590 --> 00:13:53.549 are practicable. And so if we could get people to, 269 00:13:53.690 --> 00:13:57.049 out of this conversation, Neil, get out of the kind 270 00:13:57.070 --> 00:14:00.539 of either-or thinking when it comes to their own kids 271 00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:04.620 or themselves, into both and thinking, yeah, there's both some 272 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:07.399 genetic influence and there's a hell of a lot I 273 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.120 can do to actually change things. 274 00:14:09.379 --> 00:14:11.440 When he talks about his younger days and obviously the 275 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.779 physical aspect of him being able to throw intuitively is there, 276 00:14:16.230 --> 00:14:20.350 but he talks about his enjoyment of problem solving as 277 00:14:20.389 --> 00:14:23.429 a quarterback. Is this him really beginning to unlock his 278 00:14:23.450 --> 00:14:24.169 true potential? 279 00:14:24.970 --> 00:14:26.950 Gary, I'm so glad you brought that up. I noted 280 00:14:26.990 --> 00:14:30.519 that as well. And by the way, enjoying running around, 281 00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:35.309 you know, enjoying athletic activity and joining, you know, what some, um, uh, 282 00:14:35.370 --> 00:14:38.789 psychologists just like kinesthetic intelligence, right. You know, the, the, 283 00:14:39.070 --> 00:14:41.909 where my body is in space, like where everybody else's 284 00:14:41.950 --> 00:14:44.330 body is in space, that kind of thing. Um, that 285 00:14:44.529 --> 00:14:48.250 is also both nature and nurture, right? So absolutely. Some 286 00:14:48.350 --> 00:14:51.370 kids are born enjoying that more or enjoying music more 287 00:14:51.389 --> 00:14:54.870 or whatever at the same time. Experience matters. You know, 288 00:14:54.889 --> 00:14:57.570 one of the things that the Manning story brings to 289 00:14:57.629 --> 00:15:00.950 mind is a study done at University of Chicago, now 290 00:15:01.029 --> 00:15:04.519 several decades ago, by a great psychologist named Benjamin Bloom. 291 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:06.399 But Angela, we don't have time to hear that study 292 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:09.440 in this segment, but if our audience can hang on, 293 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.500 and so can you, when we come back, we'll pick 294 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.419 up that story on what research has to say about 295 00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:20.090 what's going on in the Manning family on StarTalk. We're back. 296 00:15:20.370 --> 00:15:21.970 StarTalk Sports Edition. 297 00:15:22.509 --> 00:15:22.789 I got. 298 00:15:23.370 --> 00:15:26.830 Chuck and Gary with me, of course, my co-host, intrepid co-host. 299 00:15:27.210 --> 00:15:30.970 And we've got Angela Duckworth to help us understand and 300 00:15:31.409 --> 00:15:35.809 interpret and analyze my exclusive interview with NFL football great 301 00:15:36.230 --> 00:15:38.750 Eli Manning. And Angela, you were saying after we heard 302 00:15:38.789 --> 00:15:41.049 those first two clips that it reminded you of some 303 00:15:41.090 --> 00:15:43.929 research that you're about to quote. Tell us what's going 304 00:15:43.970 --> 00:15:44.210 on there. 305 00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:47.269 When you ask a great performer why it is that 306 00:15:47.309 --> 00:15:51.730 they're great, they usually say something about enjoying learning. about 307 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:55.480 what they're doing. I mean, they just really enjoy music 308 00:15:55.539 --> 00:15:58.960 or football, whatever it is. Now, this research that I 309 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:02.669 was getting into was done by Benjamin Bloom at University 310 00:16:02.690 --> 00:16:11.889 of Chicago. He looked at 120 world-class performers swimming, neuroscience, sculpture, piano, tennis. 311 00:16:12.730 --> 00:16:13.610 People top of their game. 312 00:16:13.830 --> 00:16:15.750 At the very top of their game. And he actually 313 00:16:15.830 --> 00:16:19.279 interviewed people, typically, for example, when they were so far 314 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.779 into their careers that everybody knew they were great, but 315 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:25.179 that their parents and their coaches were still alive to 316 00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:27.519 also be interviewed. And one of the things that came 317 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:31.769 out is that when you talk about cultivating an enjoyment 318 00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:35.129 of a craft, which like everything else we're talking about 319 00:16:35.149 --> 00:16:37.809 today is not only nature, but also nurture. Like what 320 00:16:37.870 --> 00:16:40.769 is that nurture part? I think there's two things. One 321 00:16:41.029 --> 00:16:45.370 is that somebody in that young kid's

life is actually modeling, 322 00:16:45.809 --> 00:16:48.889 enjoying that craft. And very often it was their parents. 323 00:16:49.250 --> 00:16:53.129 So in the way that perhaps, you know, Archie Manning 324 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.340 was just demonstrating, just it was a personal example, like 325 00:16:56.379 --> 00:16:58.799 how wonderful sports was. Like how terrific it is. 326 00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:00.330 Archie Manning, the father, the father. 327 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.509 Exactly, of the two boys, right, who would grow up. 328 00:17:04.150 --> 00:17:06.569 So that happened over and over again in these stories 329 00:17:06.609 --> 00:17:10.089 of 120 world-class performers. Doesn't mean that if your mom 330 00:17:10.130 --> 00:17:12.109 or dad isn't already like the thing that you're going 331 00:17:12.130 --> 00:17:14.359 to grow up to be, that you'll... You'll never love it, 332 00:17:14.410 --> 00:17:17.380 but it does actually make it more likely. And I 333 00:17:17.420 --> 00:17:20.599 happen to think that, you know, a parent who models 334 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:24.019 passion for something is also, you know, a powerful role model. 335 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:26.650 Just that you're really into something and your kids should 336 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.650 watch that and appreciate that. And then the second thing 337 00:17:30.670 --> 00:17:33.309 I'll just say about this Benjamin Bloom study is at 338 00:17:33.349 --> 00:17:36.470 the same time, they always do respect that kid's autonomy, right? 339 00:17:36.730 --> 00:17:38.569 So it's not forcing your kids to go into the 340 00:17:38.589 --> 00:17:41.150 thing that you love, but modeling that you do love 341 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:44.400 it and encouraging them. And just like Eli Manning said, 342 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:46.200 you have to ask me. But if you do ask me, yeah, 343 00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:47.500 I'm going to go throw the ball around with you. 344 00:17:48.460 --> 00:17:51.400 Well, in my interview, I did ask him directly what 345 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:54.740 he thought about the nature versus nurture question in his 346 00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:58.630 own life. Let's check it out. Can anybody... Become you? 347 00:18:00.410 --> 00:18:04.859 What does that mean? Are we talking like clones here? 348 00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:06.359 Where are we going with this? 349 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:10.779 You know, if I want to be a football star, 350 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:12.920 and let's say I'm in middle school or high school, 351 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:16.900 if I just worked hard at it, can I become you? 352 00:18:17.049 --> 00:18:18.970 Or do you think there might have been some genetic 353 00:18:19.009 --> 00:18:23.029 profile that you came out of your mother with where 354 00:18:23.089 --> 00:18:25.410 you were just ready and born for it? 355 00:18:25.940 --> 00:18:28.519 No, I definitely think there is some sort of like 356 00:18:28.859 --> 00:18:32.940 you're born with a certain skill set. And some people, 357 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.920 you know, whether it's throwing a ball, throwing a football, 358 00:18:36.980 --> 00:18:39.460 shooting a basket, it just makes sense to them. And 359 00:18:40.289 --> 00:18:42.410 I relate it to golf. You know, I think there's 360 00:18:42.430 --> 00:18:44.730 some people that can just hit a golf ball. They 361 00:18:44.769 --> 00:18:47.509 get up there and the hips and the arms and 362 00:18:47.670 --> 00:18:51.549 everything is in sync. And for me, I've played so 363 00:18:51.589 --> 00:18:54.569 much golf and it's, I mean, I'm okay, but I'll 364 00:18:54.609 --> 00:18:57.650 never be able to get to that professional level. I 365 00:18:57.690 --> 00:19:00.099 could get a coach and I could practice every single 366 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.279 day and I'm just limited in certain things. And I 367 00:19:04.299 --> 00:19:06.640 think that's just the way it is in certain sports. 368 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:09.079 You can improve and you can get better, but there's 369 00:19:09.099 --> 00:19:13.390 gonna be some limitations that if you don't have these 370 00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:17.730 certain skill sets or have this certain mobility that you 371 00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:20.069 can't create that to get to the top of the 372 00:19:20.109 --> 00:19:20.529 top level. 373 00:19:20.750 --> 00:19:24.460 So Angela, would you say that Maybe what people should 374 00:19:24.500 --> 00:19:29.339 do is explore everything they could be good at and 375 00:19:29.380 --> 00:19:31.660 then make a list of that and then find out 376 00:19:31.819 --> 00:19:33.779 of what you could be good at, what you enjoy 377 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:37.319 doing most. And then this filters down to just what 378 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:41.069 we need. This filters down to how we should perhaps 379 00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:42.309 be investing our time and energy. 380 00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:47.390 There have got to be some genetic limits. For example, height, right? 381 00:19:47.490 --> 00:19:50.119 I mean, you know, you look at the Olympics. and 382 00:19:50.140 --> 00:19:53.259 it's like, wow, none of these gymnasts are six foot six, right? 383 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:55.599 And it turns out none of the basketball players are 384 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:59.980 five foot one, right? But, you know, that's just one example, right? 385 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:03.400 There have to be some genetic limits and also just 386 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.289 some genetic weightings, right? Some things where it's like, well, yeah, 387 00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:07.829 you can climb that slope, but it's going to be 388 00:20:07.890 --> 00:20:10.150 really steep for you. But for this other person, it's 389 00:20:10.170 --> 00:20:13.130 going to be easy downhill walking. So they've got to be, 390 00:20:14.150 --> 00:20:14.390 you know. 391 00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:16.730 Wait, so is Chuck genetically funny? 392 00:20:17.759 -->

00:20:20.490 Well, I have thought about humor, actually, which is really, 393 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:22.720 you know, the same thing to me as like, you know, 394 00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:25.099 sports or chess or astrophysics, right? 395 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:25.940 Okay. 396 00:20:26.299 --> 00:20:29.460 Like it's a skill. It's a craft. It's a love. 397 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:31.390 It's a passion. You know, you get better at it, 398 00:20:31.420 --> 00:20:32.220 I think, Chuck, right? 399 00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:33.299 You do. 400 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:38.220 The only difference is you certainly don't. want to model 401 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:40.470 passion for it in front of your children because you 402 00:20:40.490 --> 00:20:46.059 don't want them to become comedians. You're like, whatever you do, 403 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:46.779 don't do this. 404 00:20:46.819 --> 00:20:48.519 Don't do this. 405 00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.500 Well, that may be the only exception, right? Because everything else, 406 00:20:53.539 --> 00:20:58.019 I think, applies. And, you know, when Eli talks about 407 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.400 being born with a certain skill set, I mean, it's 408 00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:03.400 an interesting choice of words because I don't know that, 409 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.319 you know, the human brain is not born actually like 410 00:21:06.380 --> 00:21:09.819 pre-wired with like, you know, how to throw a long pass, right? 411 00:21:09.859 --> 00:21:12.440 Like that's... Angela, let me ask you this question. 412 00:21:13.779 --> 00:21:17.470 There are those athletes that don't match the physical perfection 413 00:21:18.009 --> 00:21:20.480 of their event, but they still make it. 414 00:21:21.049 --> 00:21:22.210 They're still successful. 415 00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:26.650 So what's their pathway in looking at what they don't 416 00:21:26.750 --> 00:21:29.650 have and making up in other ways to achieve the 417 00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:30.730 goal they're set out for. 418 00:21:30.809 --> 00:21:33.450 Some of the greatest basketball players alive today, right? Aren't 419 00:21:33.470 --> 00:21:35.079 the tallest ones on the team. I mean, that just 420 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:37.420 wouldn't be, you know, something that you would expect. I mean, 421 00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:40.160 some of them are like, so that would be an example, right? Gary, 422 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.230 I think I'm just saying that there are obviously some 423 00:21:43.309 --> 00:21:46.390 things which do make it harder. or even in some 424 00:21:46.450 --> 00:21:50.539 sports you could argue just impossible. There are certain very 425 00:21:50.619 --> 00:21:53.680 extreme things where you're like, that's, I will say that. 426 00:21:54.259 --> 00:21:56.119 Just to be clear, Michael Jordan was 6'6, I think, 427 00:21:56.180 --> 00:21:56.599 is that correct? 428 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:57.849 That's right, yeah. Yeah, but like. 429 00:21:57.869 --> 00:21:59.529 That's

about average. He was not like amazingly tall. 430 00:21:59.650 --> 00:22:00.029 Oh, oh. 431 00:22:00.109 --> 00:22:00.769 That's about average. 432 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:04.529 Okay, right. And given the choice, given a magic wand, 433 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:07.170 these players may be like, yeah, give me the other inch, 434 00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:09.680 give me the five inches. So I do think there 435 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.119 are advantages, and disadvantages. Again, I wouldn't call them skill 436 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:16.960 sets because the human brain is actually plastic. And so 437 00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:21.940 it is what some scientists would call experience dependent and 438 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:26.740 experience expectant. So there might be like proclivities, right? Like 439 00:22:28.009 --> 00:22:29.009 it's prepared. 440 00:22:29.029 --> 00:22:30.890 Interesting phrasing, I like that. 441 00:22:30.970 --> 00:22:32.809 But it's not like you're born with a kid who 442 00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:35.369 actually knows how to do anything, right? Like think of babies, 443 00:22:35.410 --> 00:22:36.750 like they don't know how to talk, but they are 444 00:22:36.789 --> 00:22:38.710 born like prepared to learn how to talk. 445 00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:42.460 And Angela, I thought our brains were made of organic 446 00:22:42.519 --> 00:22:46.359 matter and not plastic. Yes. Metaphorically. 447 00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:49.430 I don't know why we say that because I don't 448 00:22:49.450 --> 00:22:51.289 even know if plastic is that plastic. Do you know 449 00:22:51.309 --> 00:22:51.569 what I mean? 450 00:22:51.609 --> 00:22:54.849 It's not even stretchable. Right, right. Plastic doesn't stretch. 451 00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:55.470 Okay. 452 00:22:56.029 --> 00:22:57.210 Make airplanes out of plastic. 453 00:22:57.230 --> 00:22:57.670 Malleable. 454 00:22:57.710 --> 00:23:01.039 Malleable. There you go. We've got to get to our 455 00:23:01.099 --> 00:23:04.380 next clip. The next clip, Eli Manning comments on the 456 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:07.599 value of being at the right place even at the 457 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:08.019 right time. 458 00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:08.380 Check it out. 459 00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:11.059 When you realize you could throw a ball and hit 460 00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:18.730 the tree, that's good, but clearly you would have to 461 00:23:18.789 --> 00:23:23.150 further refine that to win championships either in high school 462 00:23:23.170 --> 00:23:27.990 or in college or in the NFL. So wherever you began, 463 00:23:28.009 --> 00:23:33.420 how far did you go? train yourself relative to where 464 00:23:33.460 --> 00:23:35.460 you sort of walked in the door. How about that? 465 00:23:35.529 --> 00:23:37.710 That's the question. Yeah, no, I mean, it took a 466 00:23:37.750 --> 00:23:39.769 lot of, a lot of training and a lot of work. 467 00:23:39.869 --> 00:23:42.390 And I mean, and it's, I think it does go 468 00:23:42.470 --> 00:23:45.490 back to, you know, those times when you're in, you're 469 00:23:45.549 --> 00:23:48.190 in grade school and you're out for recess with the 470 00:23:48.230 --> 00:23:51.170 kids and you're playing pickup games. And, you know, I 471 00:23:51.190 --> 00:23:54.460 played quarterback and, you know, our team, whatever team I 472 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:56.240 was on, we would usually win because I was a 473 00:23:56.259 --> 00:23:58.200 better quarterback than the other team. So then they made 474 00:23:58.220 --> 00:24:02.710 me permanent quarterback. I to kind of create an equal 475 00:24:02.789 --> 00:24:05.319 game for everybody else. But I think those added.... 476 00:24:07.420 --> 00:24:09.819 It was so uneven when you're on one side. 477 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:10.140 Right. 478 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:11.140 They had to share you. 479 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:15.039 Share me. But I think all those throws add up. 480 00:24:15.299 --> 00:24:17.900 I wasn't practicing right there. I wasn't practicing to become 481 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:21.200 an NFL player. But those added up. So by the 482 00:24:21.259 --> 00:24:23.440 time I got to high school, and I remember high school, 483 00:24:24.740 --> 00:24:27.779 I would go. I remember I used to work out 484 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:30.220 with a guy named Tom Shaw. He was a speed specialist, 485 00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:31.880 and he worked with a lot of college guys and 486 00:24:32.019 --> 00:24:33.880 NFL players. And I lived in New Orleans with the 487 00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.390 New Orleans Saints. And so he was training a lot 488 00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:39.589 of NFL players and they wanted to throw routes afterwards. 489 00:24:39.769 --> 00:24:41.750 And then he didn't have a quarterback to train with them. 490 00:24:41.789 --> 00:24:44.170 So in high school, he asked if I would go 491 00:24:44.470 --> 00:24:46.750 and he would train me on running. But if I 492 00:24:46.789 --> 00:24:48.690 would throw to his receivers. So in high school in 493 00:24:48.710 --> 00:24:52.680 the summer, I'm throwing the college and NFL receivers all summer. 494 00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.680 And so like all those things that also at that point, 495 00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:59.140 now you're now you're training. Now you're practicing. This isn't recess. 496 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.140 This is like. Hey, I'm learning from these receivers how 497 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.769 to throw these routes and how to throw 20-yard comebacks 498 00:25:05.849 --> 00:25:07.829 and go routes. And I'm like, I don't want to 499 00:25:07.849 --> 00:25:11.089 throw an incompletion because I don't want this 10-year NFL 500 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:14.009 vet yelling at me for throwing a bad route. And 501 00:25:14.130 --> 00:25:19.779 so the training started there, and all those throws add up. 502 00:25:20.029 --> 00:25:23.140 So, Angela, is this just another way to say he 503 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:25.519 spent 10,000 hours

honing his craft? 504 00:25:26.269 --> 00:25:29.970 The research on deliberate practice, the kind of practice that 505 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:34.839 experts like the Mannings exemplify, which by the way, as 506 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:38.900 you know, all of you know, it's not exactly 10,000 hours, 507 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.819 but it is true that across every domain that's been studied, 508 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:45.630 every one, it's always thousands of hours. I mean, it 509 00:25:45.650 --> 00:25:47.750 just gives you a sense of the magnitude of how 510 00:25:47.789 --> 00:25:52.250 long it takes to become really world-class at whatever you do. Yes, 511 00:25:52.329 --> 00:25:54.109 what he's talking about when he said, oh, this wasn't 512 00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:57.970 just playing, this was now trying to become better at 513 00:25:58.009 --> 00:26:01.450 this thing that I'm doing, that is where you cross 514 00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:04.359 the line. And going back to Benjamin Bloom, the University 515 00:26:04.380 --> 00:26:08.160 of Chicago scientist who studied the world-class performers, there was 516 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:11.359 what he called the early years, the middle years, and 517 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.289 then the later years And the early years are a play. 518 00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:18.170 It's like, oh, it's just fun. And it was like recess. 519 00:26:18.210 --> 00:26:20.509 And then it turns out. And then you cross this line. 520 00:26:20.829 --> 00:26:22.549 And you enter the middle years. And that's when you 521 00:26:22.569 --> 00:26:25.990 start doing deliberate practice. And the motivation, I think, then 522 00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:29.839 becomes to get better. And I think the thing that 523 00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:32.839 I note about the world-class achievers that I've studied is 524 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.430 that they love to one-up. well, other people, especially if 525 00:26:36.450 --> 00:26:39.549 they're athletes, but they love to one-up themselves. So that 526 00:26:39.849 --> 00:26:43.490 motivation to get better at what you're doing just turns 527 00:26:43.670 --> 00:26:44.539 on in the middle years. 528 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:45.200 Yeah, okay. 529 00:26:45.339 --> 00:26:48.400 So what happens then, Angela, when you put someone like 530 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.319 Eli Manning and you hothouse him as a high school 531 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:55.519 student with NFL players? And then what's the burn rate 532 00:26:55.819 --> 00:26:59.019 for these young athletes or even younger than high school? 533 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:00.299 A burnout, burnout rate. 534 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.519 Yeah, so what is that and the psychological damage that 535 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:06.349 you can put into a young person's mind. 536 00:27:06.849 --> 00:27:10.789 I think the chief error that Benjamin Bloom also studied 537 00:27:11.430 --> 00:27:14.069 was when you skip the early years, right? The kind 538 00:27:14.109 -->

00:27:16.819 of intrinsic motivation, like I choose to do this. This 539 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:19.460 is so fun. Of all the things I could do, 540 00:27:19.779 --> 00:27:22.579 I really want to do this, mom and dad. Then 541 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.099 when you pass into the middle years, you have a 542 00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:28.740 foundation of love for the sport and you don't really 543 00:27:28.940 --> 00:27:31.339 necessarily lose that. It's just that you're now adding on 544 00:27:31.660 --> 00:27:35.519 this need for challenge, this need for improvement I think 545 00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:38.079 where you get burnout is when you skip the early 546 00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.400 years and you forget how important it is that the 547 00:27:40.420 --> 00:27:43.700 kid actually chose this to begin with. Not to say 548 00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.549 that it's the only problem. Obviously, you can train to exhaustion, 549 00:27:46.589 --> 00:27:49.670 you can overtrain, et cetera. And I think it's always 550 00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:53.730 helpful to remember that in this research where you have 551 00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:56.630 different motivations at different stages, and by the way, different 552 00:27:56.670 --> 00:28:00.349 coaches at different stages who really understand that aspect of 553 00:28:00.369 --> 00:28:04.609 the game, the ideal performer never loses motivation. the motivation 554 00:28:04.630 --> 00:28:06.829 of the earlier stages. So the first stage is like, 555 00:28:06.869 --> 00:28:09.690 this is fun. The second stage is I can get better. 556 00:28:10.009 --> 00:28:11.650 And by the way, the third stage is to have 557 00:28:11.670 --> 00:28:13.710 a sense of purpose. I have a sense that what 558 00:28:13.730 --> 00:28:16.549 you're doing is beyond the self. And so ideally when 559 00:28:16.569 --> 00:28:18.589 you get to that, that third stage, you still have 560 00:28:18.630 --> 00:28:20.490 that kind of, you know, this is fun and you 561 00:28:20.509 --> 00:28:21.950 still have the like, wow, I can get better. 562 00:28:21.970 --> 00:28:23.990 The great thing is you see that when you look 563 00:28:24.329 --> 00:28:26.670 at elite players and by that, I mean anybody on 564 00:28:26.710 --> 00:28:30.240 a professional level, uh, they are deadly serious during the 565 00:28:30.339 --> 00:28:35.289 execution of whatever the sport might be. But, their deadly 566 00:28:35.390 --> 00:28:42.039 seriousness always erupts into childlike joy when they have an achievement. 567 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:45.880 And so it's like, here are these guys battling it out, 568 00:28:46.059 --> 00:28:47.220 mano a mano, all. 569 00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:48.859 The way down the field. Full grown, full grown people. 570 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:53.490 And then they make a touchdown and it's like, right? 571 00:28:53.990 --> 00:28:56.490 And they're shaking and they're, oh, they're dancing. 572 00:28:56.549 --> 00:28:57.990 That's my favorite part of the game. 573 00:28:58.190 --> 00:28:58.690 Exactly. 574 00:28:58.710 --> 00:29:00.410 And they're like 80 years old again. 575 00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:03.549 Yep. It's like in baseball, if someone hits a walk-off, 576 00:29:04.180 --> 00:29:07.329 gets a walk-off hit or a home run, then they 577 00:29:07.549 --> 00:29:09.509 round the base. People are jumping up and down and 578 00:29:09.549 --> 00:29:11.309 dumping data rate on each other. 579 00:29:11.329 --> 00:29:16.019 That'll be the win bonus, Neil. Or that'll be the 580 00:29:16.059 --> 00:29:18.140 touchdown bonus that every athlete gets. 581 00:29:18.579 --> 00:29:20.359 We've got to take another break. When we come back, Angela, 582 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:22.299 if you can stay with us for that one last segment, 583 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:24.640 we've got more for you. And plus we're going to 584 00:29:24.700 --> 00:29:27.000 find out– forget Angela. We're going to find out what 585 00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:29.609 Eli thinks can make you successful. 586 00:29:30.250 --> 00:29:30.349 Good. 587 00:29:30.369 --> 00:29:37.130 That's Dark Talk Sports Edition continues. We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition, 588 00:29:37.210 --> 00:29:41.900 featuring my interview, sit-down exclusive interview. with Super Bowl great, 589 00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:48.420 New York Giant great, Eli Manning. And for this next talk. 590 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:53.470 Chuck is from Philadelphia. Okay. It took this long. Go green, baby. 591 00:29:53.569 --> 00:29:53.990 Birds. 592 00:29:54.329 --> 00:29:54.970 Go birds. 593 00:29:55.109 --> 00:29:55.750 All the way. 594 00:29:56.789 --> 00:30:01.400 You held it in very long. I couldn't take it anymore. Congratulations. 595 00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:07.180 So let's go straight to this next clip where Eli 596 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.640 Manning has a checklist of what it takes to be success. 597 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:13.509 Because forget anything that Angela just told you. We're going 598 00:30:13.529 --> 00:30:15.809 to get it from Eli Manning himself. Here it is. 599 00:30:15.910 --> 00:30:18.950 There's some families that have a really great athlete among 600 00:30:18.990 --> 00:30:24.309 the siblings and the rest are not. So it's not 601 00:30:24.329 --> 00:30:29.369 a given that some genetic profile out of a you know, 602 00:30:29.390 --> 00:30:34.490 a family, it doesn't guarantee that everybody becomes successful. 603 00:30:34.690 --> 00:30:34.910 Sure. 604 00:30:35.430 --> 00:30:39.539 So do you have any bits of wisdom you can 605 00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:44.039 just put out there that other people can absorb in 606 00:30:44.059 --> 00:30:45.039 their ambitions? 607 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:49.299 Yeah, I mean, I think a strong work ethic, I 608 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:53.960 think a strong mental, you know, mindset and just being driven, 609 00:30:53.980 --> 00:30:58.200 kind of the power of the will is much more 610 00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:02.319 important uh, than the

natural talents. And so you, you 611 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:05.720 see people who are just determined are the ones that 612 00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:09.059 go out there and are successful. And, and those are 613 00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:11.170 the guys you can count on. They're the best teammates 614 00:31:11.470 --> 00:31:14.549 because you know, they're doing everything possible, uh, for the 615 00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:17.710 betterment of the team. And so there's, you know, I've 616 00:31:17.750 --> 00:31:21.210 challenged people, what, and not just sports, but in science 617 00:31:21.269 --> 00:31:24.299 and in school work, it's the people that, uh, that 618 00:31:24.339 --> 00:31:28.589 are driven, that work harder, um, and that, um, You know, 619 00:31:28.990 --> 00:31:30.950 a lot of cases kind of maybe doing it not 620 00:31:31.009 --> 00:31:34.279 only for themselves, but doing it for someone else that 621 00:31:34.410 --> 00:31:37.000 they get the most out of it and become successful. 622 00:31:37.339 --> 00:31:40.529 Okay, so Eli had his own ideas. Actually, I prefer 623 00:31:40.829 --> 00:31:42.220 what Angela shared with us. I was going to say, 624 00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:44.710 you still forget what Angela said. I'm just like, that 625 00:31:44.769 --> 00:31:48.130 guy doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. Let's 626 00:31:48.170 --> 00:31:51.750 get back to Angela. Let's get back to Angela quick 627 00:31:51.809 --> 00:31:52.230 on that one. 628 00:31:52.269 --> 00:31:53.690 Look, you can get back to both of us because 629 00:31:53.819 --> 00:31:57.240 I think we're violently agreeing, right? 630 00:31:57.259 --> 00:31:58.119 That's the way I felt. 631 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.549 Right. I mean, he talked about like this, you know, 632 00:32:01.730 --> 00:32:04.250 mental mindset, like the you know, the people who are 633 00:32:04.369 --> 00:32:06.690 really determined, like, you know, you can count on them. Like, 634 00:32:06.730 --> 00:32:08.690 you know, you don't even have to be watching what 635 00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:12.930 they're doing all the time because when nobody's watching, they're practicing. 636 00:32:13.099 --> 00:32:13.259 Right. 637 00:32:13.619 --> 00:32:16.259 And I think when he says like that might in 638 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:17.480 his own rank ordering. 639 00:32:17.539 --> 00:32:17.720 Right. 640 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.119 This is Eli's, not mine. Like that, that that he 641 00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:24.690 would put that above. natural talent, well, I would choose 642 00:32:24.950 --> 00:32:27.579 the same rank ordering. Um, but here's the thing I 643 00:32:27.619 --> 00:32:29.740 also want to underline, you know, he said like, you know, 644 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:31.500 when you really look into what these people are doing, 645 00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:34.099 it's like, they're doing it for not just for themselves, right? 646 00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:36.829 Like they have a sense of purpose, which is greater 647 00:32:36.849 --> 00:32:40.490 than themselves. And I've been, um, shocked actually to find 648 00:32:40.509 --> 00:32:44.599 that it's not only athletes in team sports. like football, 649 00:32:44.619 --> 00:32:47.420 where that might be understandable, or basketball, right, baseball, but 650 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:51.400 also individual sports, like downhill skiing, or like, where there 651 00:32:51.579 --> 00:32:55.140 is a sense of beyond the self motivation. And I 652 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.200 just don't think people get up out of the morning, 653 00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:58.599 you know, in the morning out of bed at like 654 00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:01.220 five in the morning, whatever it is, when it's only 655 00:33:01.240 --> 00:33:04.440 for themselves. I think there's something deeply human about the 656 00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:05.680 need to serve other people. 657 00:33:06.460 --> 00:33:10.180 Well, and team sports can inculcate that very easily. I 658 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:12.319 want to make sure we have time for this final clip, 659 00:33:12.339 --> 00:33:15.319 so I'm going to go to it right now. Eli 660 00:33:15.339 --> 00:33:18.599 brings up the topic, which has been in all the news, 661 00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:22.440 and it's the mental health and well-being of professional athletes, 662 00:33:22.779 --> 00:33:26.779 especially those that are performing in very public settings. And 663 00:33:26.880 --> 00:33:31.420 he decided to take control of his own mental health. 664 00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.819 Let's check it out. So at what point did you realize... 665 00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:41.009 if ever, that your mind had to be a part 666 00:33:41.029 --> 00:33:46.470 of that effort. Because we are sensitized in recent months 667 00:33:46.589 --> 00:33:51.779 and years to high performance, high profile athletes who've stepped 668 00:33:51.950 --> 00:33:56.160 out of the big game or the big contest because 669 00:33:56.220 --> 00:33:58.759 they needed some mental time. 670 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:01.079 Yeah, I think in 2007, so my fourth year in 671 00:34:01.099 --> 00:34:08.039 the NFL, is when I reached out and got a 672 00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:11.880 sports psychiatrist to start working with. And that's when it, 673 00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:14.219 you know, just kind of realized, hey, you lift weights, 674 00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:18.599 you study film, you practice. And yet, you know, there 675 00:34:18.619 --> 00:34:20.239 was this one thing out, you kind of left out 676 00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:22.989 the mental approach to it. And your mind, if your 677 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:26.429 mind's on the right spot, if you're not thinking positively, 678 00:34:26.829 --> 00:34:28.969 if you're not prepared to go out there and be 679 00:34:28.989 --> 00:34:31.010 your best, then it's not going to happen. Whatever the 680 00:34:31.050 --> 00:34:32.710 mind thinks, it's usually what the. 681 00:34:32.670 --> 00:34:33.849 Body's going

to happen. 682 00:34:33.949 --> 00:34:36.920 And so... uh and then you know that year went 683 00:34:36.980 --> 00:34:39.019 on to win a super bowl and had success and 684 00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:41.820 so i just um you know i think it is 685 00:34:41.900 --> 00:34:44.309 so important and like you said you see it now 686 00:34:44.849 --> 00:34:48.190 with some athletes in the olympics and uh in tennis 687 00:34:48.210 --> 00:34:50.730 and other sports you know just you know kind of 688 00:34:50.769 --> 00:34:54.199 not be able to handle uh some of those circumstances 689 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.840 and so you you know understand that the mind is 690 00:34:57.860 --> 00:35:00.639 so important and And you can do it, you know, 691 00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:03.139 you kind of learn that. I remember in 2007 just 692 00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:06.570 doing a lot of visualizations and all of a sudden 693 00:35:06.610 --> 00:35:09.269 you're like sitting there in a chair like this thinking 694 00:35:09.309 --> 00:35:12.489 about a two-minute drive in the game and you're smelling 695 00:35:12.510 --> 00:35:15.050 the smell of the stadium. You're hearing the crowds, you're 696 00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:18.480 running the plays and you're sweating. I mean, it's 65 697 00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:20.280 degrees in the room and you're in a full sweat 698 00:35:20.340 --> 00:35:22.699 and so you realize the power of the mind, what 699 00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:23.619 it can create. 700 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:27.820 So maybe it's been long overdue where we would fully 701 00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.860 accept if you had an elbow injury or a knee injury, 702 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:32.920 of course, you're going to miss a few games. So 703 00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:35.659 maybe the time has come where someone needs some mental 704 00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:43.239 recovery time, that that's no different in the total package 705 00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:44.400 that an athlete represents. 706 00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.000 Yeah, I think it's just, it is harder to accept. 707 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:49.480 I think as you can see, you can, you know, 708 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:53.320 you can feel your knees pain. A doctor says, boom, 709 00:35:53.619 --> 00:35:57.449 your knee is hurt. here's the MRI. Hey, your bone 710 00:35:57.869 --> 00:36:00.969 is broken. Here's an x-ray. You know, it's hard to 711 00:36:01.010 --> 00:36:04.619 look into the mind, into just the mental state of someone. 712 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.260 You think that, well, that's easy to fix. 713 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.960 And it's not. 714 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:10.260 I mean, you can definitely get in that bad, you know, 715 00:36:10.780 --> 00:36:12.780 be in a bad place, in a bad position, and 716 00:36:12.820 --> 00:36:15.829 be thinking negative thoughts. And I think, you know, people 717 00:36:16.170 --> 00:36:18.070 would say, well, you just got to find a way 718 00:36:18.989 --> 00:36:21.409 to work through that

and grind through it and go 719 00:36:21.530 --> 00:36:23.929 out there for your teammates. And so it is a 720 00:36:23.969 --> 00:36:28.980 tough battle, but Having been in that position, I just 721 00:36:29.019 --> 00:36:31.320 understand that the mind is powerful. And if it's not 722 00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:33.079 in the right place, you're not going to be able 723 00:36:33.099 --> 00:36:34.360 to go out there and perform very well. 724 00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:37.099 So Angela, and again, I've been hogging all these questions. 725 00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.619 I want to make sure Chuck and Gary have their 726 00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:44.429 say in this. But I want to sort of take 727 00:36:44.489 --> 00:36:47.670 what Eli just shared with us and ask you, isn't 728 00:36:47.690 --> 00:36:49.670 there a day when we would have just said, just 729 00:36:49.769 --> 00:36:51.570 suck it up and get on with it? Yeah, that 730 00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:54.659 was today. And you'd have to... That was early this morning. 731 00:36:55.460 --> 00:36:58.079 That's what that was. That was early this morning. 732 00:36:58.719 --> 00:37:00.530 That was hours ago. 733 00:37:00.570 --> 00:37:03.289 So let's assume that that might even be possible, but 734 00:37:03.329 --> 00:37:06.170 it's not always in the best long-term interest of the 735 00:37:06.210 --> 00:37:09.489 person's mental health. But it is true that people have 736 00:37:09.550 --> 00:37:13.190 been injured physically, and the coach or they themselves says, 737 00:37:13.289 --> 00:37:15.829 I'm just going to suck it up. We had Lindsey 738 00:37:15.889 --> 00:37:20.679 Vonn on this podcast. Talked to us about getting injured 739 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:25.480 on some downhill slope, get airlifted out, and then she's 740 00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:27.840 back competing the next day because she didn't want to 741 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:33.230 lose a beat. And meanwhile, she's like bandaged and chewing 742 00:37:33.250 --> 00:37:37.210 gum and bailing wire to just to continue. So here 743 00:37:37.289 --> 00:37:40.250 she is sucking it up and getting on with it. 744 00:37:40.630 --> 00:37:44.400 So what do you advise in terms of people's mental health? 745 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.820 with regard to taking the time off or not, or 746 00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:48.530 just sucking it up. 747 00:37:48.730 --> 00:37:52.889 Lindsay's my girl. So now we're talking. I love Lindsay. 748 00:37:53.650 --> 00:37:55.730 We're pretty good friends. And I have thought a lot 749 00:37:55.750 --> 00:37:58.940 about her mental toughness, and then the mental toughness of 750 00:37:59.500 --> 00:38:02.050 people like Eli Manning. I think we're in the middle 751 00:38:02.070 --> 00:38:05.530 of a revolution, honestly. I mean, it's not the case 752 00:38:05.710 --> 00:38:08.309 that today people would say like you literally just have 753 00:38:08.329 --> 00:38:11.690 to suck it up or there's nothing that like, for example, 754 00:38:11.929 --> 00:38:15.510 a performance psychologist or even I think Manning said like 755 00:38:15.530 --> 00:38:18.610 a performance psychiatrist. I'm not sure, you know, whether like 756 00:38:18.789 --> 00:38:21.300 he meant exactly that. But that, yeah, you can get 757 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:25.219 somebody to help you with your mind just the way 758 00:38:25.300 --> 00:38:27.840 you would get somebody to help you with your knee 759 00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:30.199 or your hip. And that revolution. 760 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:32.659 So the stigma has changed, you're saying, because we talk 761 00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:36.380 about the macho sport of American football. You can't go 762 00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:38.320 on the sidelines and start crying because you don't feel 763 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:43.199 good that day. That doesn't play. But you're saying we're 764 00:38:43.219 --> 00:38:43.900 undergoing a shift. 765 00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:44.840 I think it's a cultural revolution. 766 00:38:44.860 --> 00:38:45.340 A ground shift. 767 00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:47.539 Cultural revolution. I think the fact that you're seeing it 768 00:38:47.619 --> 00:38:51.929 in a macho sport like football is just an indicator 769 00:38:52.010 --> 00:38:56.550 that the whole world must be changing. The memoir that 770 00:38:56.590 --> 00:39:01.110 Lindsay just wrote, she talks very honestly also about depression 771 00:39:01.489 --> 00:39:06.579 and about having to manage that, learn from that, and 772 00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:09.460 I think what we're seeing now is that these high 773 00:39:09.500 --> 00:39:14.000 performers are human beings, and as human beings, they sometimes 774 00:39:14.019 --> 00:39:17.489 need help from other people. They can work on things 775 00:39:17.530 --> 00:39:19.269 like their emotions, and they have emotions. 776 00:39:20.139 --> 00:39:22.719 But Angela, you're wrong. They're not human beings. 777 00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:26.349 They're superheroes. They're super human beings. 778 00:39:26.409 --> 00:39:27.769 I don't want to walk down the street and find 779 00:39:27.829 --> 00:39:31.329 Superman crying in a phone booth because he can't handle it. 780 00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:32.920 Superman's having a bad day. 781 00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:37.960 By the way, that's Batman's job, crying. Yeah, right. 782 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:40.849 So here's the deal. You walk into the stadium, right, 783 00:39:40.969 --> 00:39:44.250 from the parking lot. And as the coach, and I'm 784 00:39:44.309 --> 00:39:47.170 looking at you, can I tell whether or not you're 785 00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:50.760 game ready or you're half-baked? And you're not going. 786 00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:53.099 To be performing. Now, you can. 787 00:39:53.139 --> 00:39:56.679 There's certain tells in the body language. But if you're 788 00:39:56.719 --> 00:39:59.210 one of those people that covers that up, I can't 789 00:39:59.250 --> 00:40:02.130 tell what's going off in here. So

we need to 790 00:40:02.210 --> 00:40:02.650 have this. 791 00:40:02.769 --> 00:40:04.570 In here, in your mind. In my mind, yes. 792 00:40:04.590 --> 00:40:06.710 So it's one of those things that now I see 793 00:40:06.730 --> 00:40:08.900 it because the way it used to be is blindfold 794 00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:11.019 that guy, push him into a dark room, and let's 795 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:13.110 see if he gets out the other side. and you 796 00:40:13.150 --> 00:40:15.590 would fumble your way through this. Now we have so 797 00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:18.110 much more understanding of, you know what, this is a package, 798 00:40:18.150 --> 00:40:21.590 it's holistic, it's body and mind. Don't just expect one 799 00:40:21.630 --> 00:40:23.570 thing and one thing alone to carry this athlete through. 800 00:40:23.590 --> 00:40:25.989 So Gary, would you just ask now, like whereas before 801 00:40:26.030 --> 00:40:27.849 you would just like, you know, shove them into it 802 00:40:27.869 --> 00:40:29.949 and see what happens? I mean, I feel like there 803 00:40:29.989 --> 00:40:33.679 would be a conversation, you know, whereas, you know, 20 804 00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:34.889 years ago, there wouldn't be. 805 00:40:35.110 --> 00:40:39.679 Yeah, that's because 20 years ago, 20 years ago, We 806 00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:44.420 had a lot more anger to feed our performance. All 807 00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:48.159 of these sports were driven by anger. All of the 808 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:52.260 time that you spent becoming what you were becoming, the 809 00:40:52.340 --> 00:40:54.699 fact that this other guy was on the other side 810 00:40:54.739 --> 00:40:57.409 of you, it was like, I'm going to kill you. 811 00:40:57.750 --> 00:40:58.789 That was the game. 812 00:41:00.070 --> 00:41:02.190 It wasn't about- What is it now? Wait, what is 813 00:41:02.230 --> 00:41:02.769 it now, Chuck? 814 00:41:02.849 --> 00:41:03.210 No, no. 815 00:41:03.230 --> 00:41:07.010 Wait, wait, wait, Angela, as you can see, Chuck's still here. No, 816 00:41:07.050 --> 00:41:14.010 now it's about performance. It's about competitiveness. It's about- achieving excellence, 817 00:41:14.030 --> 00:41:17.239 you're fueled by something different from the inside. When you 818 00:41:17.260 --> 00:41:21.659 look at guys like Jack Lambert and Ronnie Lott, these guys. 819 00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:24.519 Wanted to kill you. They wanted to kill you. 820 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:26.920 They would do things like you'd be at the bottom 821 00:41:26.940 --> 00:41:28.579 of a pile and they would bite you. 822 00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:32.320 That's not... That doesn't have anything to do with football. 823 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:33.079 That doesn't have. 824 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:39.889 Anything to do with football. So, you know... All right, guys, 825 00:41:39.909 --> 00:41:42.690 we've got to try to land this plane here. Angela, 826 00:41:42.710 --> 00:41:46.530 do you have any sort of final reflections on... Nothing 827 00:41:46.570 --> 00:41:50.349 is final. Do you have any timely reflections on where 828 00:41:50.750 --> 00:41:55.380 society is now and also informed by what we've learned 829 00:41:55.409 --> 00:41:56.179 from Eli today? 830 00:41:56.429 --> 00:41:59.139 You know, a lot of people like me don't know 831 00:41:59.179 --> 00:42:03.239 a lot about football, but we nevertheless admire the Mannings, 832 00:42:03.500 --> 00:42:06.940 all of them, right? And I think it's because they are... 833 00:42:07.889 --> 00:42:11.000 people of character, right? Like they have work ethic. Yeah, 834 00:42:11.019 --> 00:42:15.179 they have grit. They love something. They're also honest people 835 00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.329 who are, you know, fairly brave, I think, about, you know, 836 00:42:18.349 --> 00:42:20.570 things that have gone well for them and especially about 837 00:42:20.590 --> 00:42:23.250 the things that haven't gone well. So, you know, I 838 00:42:23.469 --> 00:42:26.230 love that we have some heroes left Some days I 839 00:42:26.250 --> 00:42:27.869 wake up and wonder if we are going to have 840 00:42:27.949 --> 00:42:31.730 any left since there's a lot to be disappointed about 841 00:42:31.769 --> 00:42:35.550 in the world. So anyway, I have really appreciated listening 842 00:42:35.590 --> 00:42:37.849 to somebody like that, not only because of, you know, 843 00:42:38.190 --> 00:42:41.280 athletic accomplishments, but because of character and the role model 844 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:42.260 that these people are. 845 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.579 And what didn't make these clips, but I'll share with 846 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.099 you now. I didn't follow every game he ever played in. 847 00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:52.239 So I had to ask him, I said, Eli, did 848 00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:56.320 you ever play As quarterback directly against your brother. And 849 00:42:56.460 --> 00:42:58.659 if so, how did you do? And he said, let's 850 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:00.780 not talk about that. I said, okay, shut off the 851 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:05.909 cameras now. So I actually don't know how he did it, 852 00:43:06.269 --> 00:43:07.469 but he was very funny about it. 853 00:43:07.469 --> 00:43:08.269 I think we can guess. 854 00:43:09.170 --> 00:43:10.969 You can guess. I don't know. 855 00:43:11.050 --> 00:43:12.369 I don't know if I can guess. 856 00:43:13.530 --> 00:43:15.710 So let me see. Let me give the Bard the 857 00:43:15.750 --> 00:43:20.300 last reflection here. I think it's from the 12th night. And, Angela, 858 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:22.340 you tell me how often. I think he's right on 859 00:43:22.360 --> 00:43:25.449 the money here when he says, this is from the 860 00:43:25.469 --> 00:43:29.150 Twelfth Night. He says, some people are born great, some 861 00:43:29.230 --> 00:43:34.179 people achieve greatness, and some people have greatness thrust upon them. 862 00:43:35.300 --> 00:43:35.630 Yes. Yes. 863 00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:38.340 That kind of covers all the angles there, I think. 864 00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:42.099 I'm going to disagree politely with the bard and say. 865 00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:43.860 No, that's not allowed. 866 00:43:43.980 --> 00:43:46.079 Well, you know, the bard's not here to defend himself. 867 00:43:46.139 --> 00:43:52.090 So I think that people who are great are born 868 00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:57.329 with a certain lucky combination of qualities. And they achieve it. 869 00:43:57.610 --> 00:44:01.179 And circumstances change. enable them to do it. So I 870 00:44:01.219 --> 00:44:01.739 think all three. 871 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:03.420 Oh, so it's not or, it's not a bunch of ors. 872 00:44:03.460 --> 00:44:06.679 I think it's and, and, and, and, you know, the 873 00:44:06.699 --> 00:44:09.039 bard will have to come on and talk about how 874 00:44:09.099 --> 00:44:09.420 I'm wrong. 875 00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:10.940 We'll get him on our next episode. 876 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:11.960 It'll be a great interview. 877 00:44:12.579 --> 00:44:12.780 Yeah. 878 00:44:13.059 --> 00:44:15.840 So Angela, I own a copy of your book and 879 00:44:15.900 --> 00:44:17.239 if we're ever in person, I'm going to get you 880 00:44:17.260 --> 00:44:19.960 to sign it. And it's an important book on the 881 00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:22.820 landscape of how we can all be all that we 882 00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:25.380 can be. So thanks for writing that book. Thanks for 883 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:27.989 being you. And thanks for sharing your expertise with us. 884 00:44:28.469 --> 00:44:31.780 here on StarTalk Sports Edition. And do you have a 885 00:44:31.820 --> 00:44:33.679 social media platform that we can find you on? 886 00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:36.380 I would like people to go to characterlab.org, and that 887 00:44:36.420 --> 00:44:39.179 is a nonprofit website where we give science away for 888 00:44:39.219 --> 00:44:40.139 parents and teachers. 889 00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:41.880 Yay. Excellent. Cool. 890 00:44:42.099 --> 00:44:44.300 And some percentage of the people who visit that will 891 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:47.059 also give you money to do that because it's a not-for-profit. 892 00:44:47.340 --> 00:44:48.179 That would be great, too. 893 00:44:49.119 --> 00:44:49.659 Excellent. 894 00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:50.099 Excellent. 895 00:44:50.659 --> 00:44:52.599 Gary, Chuck, always good to have you. Pleasure. 896 00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:53.659 All right. 897 00:44:53.699 --> 00:44:57.869 This has been StarTalk Sports Edition. featuring the Eli Manning interview, 898 00:44:58.110 --> 00:44:58.750 Nature vs. 899 00:44:58.789 --> 00:44:59.110 Nurture. 900 00:44:59.150 --> 00:45:03.039 I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist. Keep looking up.