บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Murray Mexted: Marc Ellis Meets His Childhood Hero

00:03:57.637 But anyway, Brian Lahore was the guy that I used to admire most in the All Black team. 66 00:03:58.137 --> 00:03:59.678 And I used to watch where he ran 67 00:04:00.152 --> 00:04:02.394 Instead of watching the ball, I was watching where he was running. 68 00:04:03.394 --> 00:04:12.781 And a few years later, someone said to me, you know, when I started growing up, someone said to me, you know, you shouldn't really run behind the backs all the time. 69 00:04:13.901 --> 00:04:18.405 You know, corner flagging, because that was the style of the number eight back in the day. 70 00:04:18.905 --> 00:04:23.888 He would corner flag and be involved in counterattack or defence. 71 00:04:24.729 --> 00:04:29.112 And then Graham Murray, I guess, changed that dramatically. 72 00:04:30.007 --> 00:04:31.408 When I met him, it was in France. 73 00:04:31.468 --> 00:04:44.136 I was playing rugby in France and he was in Paris, actually, and he rang the rugby club where I was playing and nobody spoke English there, but he was actually a little bit of a bilingual sort of a fellow. 74 00:04:44.997 --> 00:04:56.724 And so he got me on the phone and I said, I said, hello, you know, it was the first phone call I'd had in about eight months because he didn't use the phone in those days. 75 00:04:57.432 --> 00:04:59.794 And he said, oh, Murray, it's Graham Murray speaking. 76 00:04:59.814 --> 00:05:00.955 And I said, yeah, right. 77 00:05:01.956 --> 00:05:05.018 And he said, no, no, it's Graham Murray. 78 00:05:05.418 --> 00:05:06.339 He said, I'm in Paris. 79 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:07.980 I stayed behind after the All Black Tour. 80 00:05:08.481 --> 00:05:11.403 And I've been reading about you in the Midi-Olympic. 81 00:05:12.264 --> 00:05:13.385 And I've never heard of you. 82 00:05:13.605 --> 00:05:14.986 And you come from New Zealand. 83 00:05:15.947 --> 00:05:17.168 And so anyway... 84 00:05:18.053 --> 00:05:24.575 Long story short, we got together for a weekend shortly after that in the southwest of France. 85 00:05:24.615 --> 00:05:37.900 It was a great education because he had a whiteboard at the time and he wanted to talk to me about the position and the direction that number eight ran, which I thought was pretty interesting actually because I've never spoken to anybody about it ever. 86 00:05:38.640 --> 00:05:45.823 I come from a little town where rugby club was in the third division. 87 00:05:46.538 --> 00:05:53.880 And then I'd gone over to France to play rugby for one of their top teams and things had gone well for me. 88 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:59.761 But I'd never really had any coaching, apart from the old man who actually was a number eight. 89 00:05:59.781 --> 00:06:05.923 But the role of a number eight has changed dramatically over the years and it's still evolving now, I think. 90 00:06:06.363 --> 00:06:10.444 Although a lot of people ignore the fact that the number eight really does need 91 00:06:11.237 --> 00:06:15.881 to support wherever that breakdown area is, if he can at all. 92 00:06:15.901 --> 00:06:18.644 And that's what Murray taught me that day. 93 00:06:18.724 --> 00:06:34.298 Instead of running in a defensive capacity, wanting to get involved in the next area of play, he wanted the number eight to be really close to where the open side flanker was at the breakdown, so that there would be two at the breakdown. 94 00:06:34.738 --> 00:06:37.080 If you got two people to the breakdown, you'd retain positions. 95 00:06:37.592 --> 00:06:39.393 Well, it just made such logical sense. 96 00:06:39.433 --> 00:06:43.095 I can't believe that no one had ever told me before or that I'd worked it out. 97 00:06:43.735 --> 00:06:46.376 And I still see that now when I watch the game now. 98 00:06:47.057 --> 00:06:49.538 I see whether we get one or two people to the breakdown. 99 00:06:50.338 --> 00:06:57.722 And if you go into the breakdown by yourself or take a ball into a tackle situation, it's great to have someone immediately there. 100 00:06:58.210 --> 00:07:02.732 But just imagine how much better it is if you've got two people that arrive at that same situation. 101 00:07:02.792 --> 00:07:08.814 Can I just pick up on something you said earlier, Mix, which was you grew up in a small town, third division rugby club. 102 00:07:09.414 --> 00:07:10.374 Tell me a bit more about that. 103 00:07:11.855 --> 00:07:12.555 Or was that in France? 104 00:07:12.635 --> 00:07:15.316 Well, I was north of Wellington. 105 00:07:15.356 --> 00:07:24.019 I mean, I think when I made the All Black team, I was the only forward that wasn't from a rural area. 106 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:26.460 Andy Hayden actually, 107 00:07:27.949 --> 00:07:31.792 lived in Auckland at that stage, but he came from Whanganui. 108 00:07:32.353 --> 00:07:38.719 So, you know, it was a rural area and they thought because I came from Wellington that I must have been a city boy. 109 00:07:39.459 --> 00:07:44.424 And I remember Eric Watson approaching me the first time I was in an all-black trial and he 110 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:52.984 He sort of poked me in the chest and he said, you know, I don't like you city boys with your little collars and your narrow ties. 111 00:07:53.605 --> 00:07:57.527 You know, he said, I like the real men like Ken Stewart and Lester Rutledge and all that sort of stuff. 112 00:07:58.688 --> 00:07:59.789 I was staggered. 113 00:07:59.829 --> 00:08:04.111 I'd never spoken to an all-black selector or coach before in my life. 114 00:08:04.591 --> 00:08:06.032 As I said, I came from Tawa. 115 00:08:06.052 --> 00:08:07.913 That was the first thing that he ever said to me. 116 00:08:08.894 --> 00:08:09.254 Wow. 117 00:08:09.494 --> 00:08:11.095 But anyway, that was life. 118 00:08:11.135 --> 00:08:16.678 But Tawa was only, I guess, what, about 13 kilometres from Wellington. 119 00:08:16.718 --> 00:08:18.339 But in those days, that was a long way. 120 00:08:18.359 --> 00:08:19.619 But yeah. 121 00:08:20.380 -->

00:08:22.661 And was Mark Shore as terrifying as he looked? 122 00:08:23.624 --> 00:08:26.006 because he was literally like Clint Eastwood. 123 00:08:26.046 --> 00:08:30.109 You know, he just had... Was it a left cross that, you know, he used to... 124 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:34.133 So when you're watching the O-Beth, you're watching Clint Eastwood and Tom Selleck. 125 00:08:34.873 --> 00:08:39.217 Yeah, mate, I'd characterise these guys as, you know, movie stars to me. 126 00:08:39.237 --> 00:08:48.385 They were huge, you know, but he was definitely Clint Eastwood, and it was just a short, sharp, and you knew not to screw with him, or at least it gave me that impression. 127 00:08:48.405 --> 00:08:50.707 He was a bit like Andy Earle in my era. 128 00:08:50.747 --> 00:08:51.447 Yeah, he's... 129 00:08:52.648 --> 00:08:54.410 No, he was fantastic actually. 130 00:08:54.430 --> 00:08:55.290 He was fantastic. 131 00:08:55.530 --> 00:08:58.533 I think we played a lot of tests together. 132 00:08:59.013 --> 00:09:00.655 I think we only missed about one. 133 00:09:01.495 --> 00:09:02.796 in about eight or nine years. 134 00:09:03.156 --> 00:09:06.577 And that was in the third test against Springboks at Eden Park. 135 00:09:07.078 --> 00:09:08.378 And he was injured in that game. 136 00:09:08.418 --> 00:09:12.520 Otherwise, every other game we played together, which was great. 137 00:09:12.540 --> 00:09:13.661 So I got to know him pretty well. 138 00:09:14.241 --> 00:09:19.103 And he was outstanding, absolutely outstanding, because he just focused on the job. 139 00:09:20.104 --> 00:09:22.645 And he was oblivious to everything else. 140 00:09:22.725 --> 00:09:23.746 And he was just doing the job. 141 00:09:25.055 --> 00:09:32.277 I think that's really important for rugby players, not to see the bits and pieces on the edge or to hear anything. 142 00:09:32.317 --> 00:09:34.378 It's just to focus on the job at hand. 143 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.740 He was really, really good, really specific. 144 00:09:39.820 --> 00:09:44.802 The other thing about Cowboy for me, in those days there was no lifting in the line-out. 145 00:09:45.242 --> 00:09:51.024 So we were competing and it was a bit of a free-for-all, the line-out, and you'd have to outmaneuver. 146 00:09:51.728 --> 00:09:53.329 the opponent. 147 00:09:53.929 --> 00:10:02.152 One of the things that makes it easier back in the day in that scenario was that you only had to compete against one person. 148 00:10:03.413 --> 00:10:09.195 If you had somebody who was blocking at six effectively, then you could move back and forth. 149 00:10:09.215 --> 00:10:14.798 You're only competing against the guy second from the back in the line-out, which is where I jumped. 150 00:10:15.865 --> 00:10:21.971 And he was perfect at that because he'd take out the number six out of play every single line out. 151 00:10:22.611 --> 00:10:25.134 So I had a whole lot of room to move to get ball. 152 00:10:25.154 --> 00:10:27.936 And now you need that room. 153 00:10:29.017 --> 00:10:37.405 In those days when there was no lifting, height was pretty important and spring was pretty important and timing was pretty important. 154 00:10:37.565 --> 00:10:38.826 What about when you played against him? 155 00:10:39.066 --> 00:10:39.727 What was that like? 156 00:10:41.372 --> 00:10:45.493 Yeah, well, I remember that because Manawatu was pretty good in those days. 157 00:10:46.333 --> 00:10:49.774 And I think he gave me some space, actually. 158 00:10:50.334 --> 00:10:54.955 I think he showed his soft side that people don't know about, that I know all about. 159 00:10:55.876 --> 00:11:02.377 And, yeah, because I was marking Jeff Old, who was a pretty good footballer as well at that stage. 160 00:11:02.457 --> 00:11:05.038 And he and Cowboy were sort of working together. 161 00:11:05.518 --> 00:11:05.718 But... 162 00:11:06.836 --> 00:11:11.620 No, he never flattened me in those encounters, so I guess I was a bit lucky. 163 00:11:11.980 --> 00:11:13.581 Because, I mean, he was very abrasive. 164 00:11:14.262 --> 00:11:26.251 And I think the two teams that I remember were the most physical that we played against over that decade was France and South Africa. 165 00:11:26.411 --> 00:11:30.093 And when you think about it, nothing's changed, has it? 166 00:11:30.734 --> 00:11:35.678 So the player that was playing for France at the moment that was marking him was a guy called Rodriguez. 167 00:11:36.488 --> 00:11:37.689 And he was a tough bastard. 168 00:11:37.809 --> 00:11:39.090 Yeah. 169 00:11:39.290 --> 00:11:40.551 And Cowboy ran into him. 170 00:11:40.931 --> 00:11:46.554 And I remember this guy headbutting Cowboy in the test match in Auckland. 171 00:11:47.295 --> 00:11:49.676 And there was a bit of a fight going on. 172 00:11:49.736 --> 00:11:55.880 And instead of the normal left jab, there was the old headbutt. 173 00:11:56.340 --> 00:12:00.303 And I think that was the only time I ever saw anyone get the better of Mark Shaw. 174 00:12:02.068 --> 00:12:05.452 Speaking of focusing on the job, were you playing in Baritz? 175 00:12:06.072 --> 00:12:06.633 No, Arjen. 176 00:12:06.933 --> 00:12:07.313 Arjen. 177 00:12:08.034 --> 00:12:09.956 Because Mike Clamp was in Baritz, wasn't he? 178 00:12:10.857 --> 00:12:12.078 Yeah, he was. 179 00:12:12.098 --> 00:12:13.379 He was like Vinnie Barbarina. 180 00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:16.923 He was the coolest. 181 00:12:17.023 --> 00:12:18.965 You expected him to be running where the gold chain was. 182 00:12:18.985 --> 00:12:20.046 I think he's still in Baritz. 183 00:12:20.246 --> 00:12:20.466 Is he? 184 00:12:21.007 --> 00:12:21.307 Yeah. 185 00:12:21.567 --> 00:12:25.010 You had the greatest team ever, that Wellington ran 30 decades. 186 00:12:27.774 --> 00:12:30.957 Yeah, he was a cool cat and had a great outside break. 187 00:12:32.178 --> 00:12:44.107 We had several wingers that were world class in those days because Stu and Bernie,

obviously, and the third guy that wasn't as celebrated, I guess, in the early days was Mike Clamp. 188 00:12:44.167 --> 00:12:47.329 But I remember he was scoring between 18 and 22 tries a season. 189 00:12:50.455 --> 00:12:51.716 which was a lot in those days. 190 00:12:52.016 --> 00:12:54.096 That's a lot in your day. 191 00:12:54.116 --> 00:12:55.357 Well, I guess it is, yeah. 192 00:12:55.377 --> 00:12:56.938 And that was for Wellington. 193 00:12:57.378 --> 00:12:58.438 But he had real gas. 194 00:12:58.758 --> 00:12:58.978 Yeah. 195 00:12:59.599 --> 00:13:01.039 Yeah, Clampy Storm in France. 196 00:13:01.319 --> 00:13:02.800 I see him every time I go over there. 197 00:13:02.860 --> 00:13:05.081 Yeah, I'd say you'd be doing a bit of surfing with him, wouldn't you? 198 00:13:05.141 --> 00:13:08.882 I mean, it must have been difficult to retain focus with guys like... 199 00:13:09.122 --> 00:13:24.579 But that was the question I was going to ask, because I remember Colin Meads telling a story about you that you'd pulled out of, was it like a North-South game or an All Black trial or something, because you said to the selectors you had a business meeting, and then you showed up with your surfboards. 200 00:13:24.900 --> 00:13:25.881 What was the story there? 201 00:13:28.233 --> 00:13:31.935 Yeah, I was a victim of circumstances, actually, Rick. 202 00:13:32.576 --> 00:13:38.179 No, about a week before the All Black, the All Black trial was in Hamilton, which is an unusual place to have an All Black trial these days. 203 00:13:38.499 --> 00:13:40.000 Only an unusual place, full stop. 204 00:13:42.662 --> 00:13:44.263 I'm very close to Hamilton these days. 205 00:13:44.743 --> 00:13:45.664 I'm just down the road. 206 00:13:45.724 --> 00:13:46.965 I'm in Mount Maunganui. 207 00:13:48.026 --> 00:13:57.938 on the beach actually Mark of course you are I've got some mates down there I'll give you a holler next time you'll be the first of the story sorry I'm just you know you can edit this out I'd love to have a beer with me in person 208 00:14:00.722 --> 00:14:10.350 Yeah, but anyway, getting back to it, I had a couple of visitors join me from South Africa, and they were surfers, and they'd never seen a game of rugby, really. 209 00:14:10.771 --> 00:14:22.320 These guys came from Natal, and they were out in the country on the beach, but north of Natal, and in those days, it's up by the border of Mozambique. 210 00:14:22.841 --> 00:14:23.962 So there's not much rugby. 211 00:14:23.982 --> 00:14:24.482 No, no. 212 00:14:25.443 --> 00:14:28.045 No, there's not much rugby going on where they live. 213 00:14:28.185 --> 00:14:28.706 Salt Rock. 214 00:14:29.530 --> 00:14:37.153 And so anyway, these guys arrived and they wanted to do a surfing trip around the North Island, which I did too. 215 00:14:37.173 --> 00:14:41.055 So I had a PA Vauxhall, I remember in those days. 216 00:14:41.075 --> 00:14:44.757 So we banged the boards on the roof and we started going up the East Coast. 217 00:14:45.628 --> 00:14:56.216 And, uh, so I said that I had some business on the weekend and, um, I pulled into the car park at the hotel where the All Blacks were meeting on the Thursday. 218 00:14:56.456 --> 00:15:02.000 Because in those days you met for an All Black trial and you couldn't get together, uh, earlier than Thursday. 219 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:07.985 So I pulled in on Thursday and parked the car in the car park and it had three surfboards on the roof. 220 00:15:08.465 --> 00:15:12.368 And then I ran into the, into the changing room and, uh. 221 00:15:13.160 --> 00:15:24.643 We had the training session and that's when Bernie Fraser told everybody that, uh, I think he, I think he told Colin Meads that, uh, I'd just arrived with some surfboards on the roof cause Bernie was a troublemaker. 222 00:15:25.483 --> 00:15:37.847 And, uh, anyway, I didn't know, I didn't know, uh, that, that Colin was aware of it, but, um, he, and I, he was, you know, it was a North Island versus South Island actually. 223 00:15:38.587 --> 00:15:41.688 And he said to Cowboy and I before the game that, um, 224 00:15:42.732 --> 00:15:51.820 the pressure was on you two guys because one of you thinks he's the toughest guy in the world and the other guy would rather be surfing because he's got surfboards on the roof in his car. 225 00:15:52.520 --> 00:16:00.226 And so that was his way of motivating the two of his loose forwards and the probables versus the possibles. 226 00:16:00.246 --> 00:16:04.710 Were you up against Dale Atkins then? 227 00:16:05.010 --> 00:16:07.272 Because he was quite a good player, wasn't he, back in the day? 228 00:16:07.472 --> 00:16:07.832 Yeah. 229 00:16:08.797 --> 00:16:12.200 Yeah, I can't remember to tell you the truth, to be frank. 230 00:16:12.880 --> 00:16:16.883 I know that sounds awful, but they were changing players all the time. 231 00:16:17.464 --> 00:16:20.586 And I'm not quite sure who it was on that particular occasion. 232 00:16:20.626 --> 00:16:21.487 Where did you learn to serve? 233 00:16:21.507 --> 00:16:24.169 You've got to tell that story about Bruiser. 234 00:16:24.570 --> 00:16:25.190 Oh, fuck, mate. 235 00:16:25.210 --> 00:16:26.391 This is your favourite story. 236 00:16:26.551 --> 00:16:27.772 Well, no, it's amusing. 237 00:16:28.152 --> 00:16:30.594 I'd like to seek clarification as to whether or not it's accurate. 238 00:16:30.695 --> 00:16:30.915 Yeah. 239 00:16:31.375 --> 00:16:35.839 Mike Brewer, of course, you know, made the baby blacks after you went on the tour. 240 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:36.419 Cavaliers. 241 00:16:36.439 --> 00:16:36.819 Cavaliers. 242 00:16:37.760 --> 00:16:42.681 And I was at school, went to Otago my first year at university. 243 00:16:42.701 --> 00:16:46.442 I was playing with the Otago team and Mike told the story that he came up to you. 244 00:16:46.462 --> 00:16:50.903 This was under the athletic park, under the Mallard stand. 245 00:16:51.323 -->

00:16:51.623 Mallard? 246 00:16:52.103 --> 00:16:52.823 Yeah, Mallard. 247 00:16:53.683 --> 00:16:59.084 Anyhow, he came up and he was the incumbent number eight because you had left on the Cavaliers. 248 00:16:59.104 --> 00:17:02.445 And he came up and said, G'day Mike Brewer. 249 00:17:02.545 --> 00:17:03.725 And you said, Mike who? 250 00:17:05.456 --> 00:17:08.417 Apparently with the coin toss. 251 00:17:08.537 --> 00:17:13.078 And, oh, mate, that used to bring the Otago team into bloody fits of hysteria. 252 00:17:13.818 --> 00:17:15.298 And I just hoped it was true. 253 00:17:15.678 --> 00:17:16.918 I hoped it was true because... 254 00:17:17.959 --> 00:17:20.119 I don't think it's true, Mark. 255 00:17:20.139 --> 00:17:21.419 That's not a categoric, no. 256 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.100 But it may or may not be. 257 00:17:24.140 --> 00:17:25.220 Mike who? 258 00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:26.780 I would have thought that was bang on. 259 00:17:26.800 --> 00:17:28.461 It was something that you may have said. 260 00:17:28.801 --> 00:17:30.781 I have heard that before. 261 00:17:30.801 --> 00:17:32.402 I have heard I was accused of that before. 262 00:17:32.422 --> 00:17:34.422 But I'm not quite sure whether my sense of humour... 263 00:17:35.002 --> 00:17:35.883 was like that, was it? 264 00:17:36.223 --> 00:17:36.744 Yeah. 265 00:17:36.964 --> 00:17:37.704 Why not? 266 00:17:37.724 --> 00:17:41.387 It's a... At least we had senses of humour, you know, back then. 267 00:17:41.407 --> 00:17:41.968 You're allowed to. 268 00:17:41.988 --> 00:17:56.480 You were always a player that had a great balance between, you know, you were an intense all-black test player, but you also found a balance to enjoy life, which was almost unusual in your era. 269 00:17:58.681 --> 00:18:01.624 Yeah, I think balance is really important in life. 270 00:18:02.244 --> 00:18:02.685 I think... 271 00:18:04.026 --> 00:18:06.808 It makes life easier to handle. 272 00:18:06.888 --> 00:18:12.112 I think a fine balance is vital for a good life. 273 00:18:12.492 --> 00:18:13.653 Life's a luxury, isn't it? 274 00:18:13.913 --> 00:18:15.935 It's magnificent. 275 00:18:15.955 --> 00:18:19.057 You might as well enjoy every second of it. 276 00:18:19.818 --> 00:18:21.259 Otherwise, I'm not quite sure. 277 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:25.762 I know that one of the most important things in achieving anything is 278 00:18:26.496 --> 00:18:36.578 is the ability to focus and have your mind completely engrossed in what you're doing, so totally focused on what you do. 279 00:18:36.638 --> 00:18:42.879 So the ability to switch on and switch off was crucial, and I learned that through rugby. 280 00:18:43.779 --> 00:18:55.662 And later, when I was running IRANS, that was my area of expertise that I worked with Gary Hermanson, and mental skills were an important part 281 00:18:56.693 --> 00:18:58.555 the role of any rugby player. 282 00:18:58.595 --> 00:19:08.003 But the most important thing in my mind,

above everything else, above skills, everything, is the ability to focus solely on what you have to do right this second. 283 00:19:08.343 --> 00:19:16.470 So you would be, and you strike me as somebody who would concur, that to manifest is 99% of the battle. 284 00:19:16.530 --> 00:19:18.832 Do you believe that if you set your mind to it, 285 00:19:19.592 --> 00:19:25.095 and you focus on it with sufficient intensity and commitment that it will happen. 286 00:19:25.135 --> 00:19:29.078 I've never met anyone who had a dream that they believed and they put their heart to that hasn't achieved it. 287 00:19:30.679 --> 00:19:32.420 Yeah, no, I agree with that. 288 00:19:32.520 --> 00:19:36.002 But switching on and switching off is the key there, Mark. 289 00:19:36.162 --> 00:19:37.103 Yeah, yeah, agree. 290 00:19:37.203 --> 00:19:38.243 I mean, if you're too intense. 291 00:19:38.263 --> 00:19:38.924 If you can do that. 292 00:19:39.104 --> 00:19:39.344 Yeah. 293 00:19:39.684 --> 00:19:43.106 If you can do that, then you never get distracted from what you're doing. 294 00:19:44.087 --> 00:19:46.168 And you're oblivious to everything else in the world. 295 00:19:47.913 --> 00:19:49.794 And you're living in that absolute moment. 296 00:19:50.274 --> 00:19:53.896 How do you, look, let's bring it to modern day. 297 00:19:55.017 --> 00:20:08.586 How do you then switch off when you're being bombarded and everyone who's on social media is just getting hit with things that are particularly, you know, social media is people effectively to me saying this is who I wish I was. 298 00:20:09.346 --> 00:20:10.487 So I'll show you my profile. 299 00:20:10.967 --> 00:20:12.268 This is who I dream of being. 300 00:20:12.549 --> 00:20:17.072 And every photo you get is me at my best showing something that would make you think I'm better than I am. 301 00:20:18.013 --> 00:20:22.937 How then can you relax or how can you get balance when the focus is to portray yourself as something you're not? 302 00:20:24.298 --> 00:20:26.980 Well, I think I'll repeat just what I said. 303 00:20:27.040 --> 00:20:34.486 I said it's the ability to switch on and switch off, the ability to isolate thoughts and just focus solely on what you have to do right now. 304 00:20:34.926 --> 00:20:36.648 And it's the same for anything, whether you 305 00:20:37.464 --> 00:20:47.728 you're writing a poem or whether you're taking a photo or whether you're about to catch a wave, if you're focused completely on it, then you're going to achieve it a hell of a lot better, aren't you? 306 00:20:47.748 --> 00:20:52.490 You're going to do better, do the job at the best of your ability. 307 00:20:52.871 --> 00:21:05.276 And if you're not, if you're thinking of somebody tackling you or the fact that you're on TV or something like that, you're never going to have your full focus right on what you have to do at this specific moment. 308 00:21:06.135 --> 00:21:09.998 And then decision-making becomes simple, becomes

a simplistic thing. 309 00:21:10.398 --> 00:21:17.383 Like often we say, you know, that winger made the wrong choice at that stage. 310 00:21:17.983 --> 00:21:23.047 You know, he should have drawn the fullback and fed our fullback, fed the overlap. 311 00:21:23.427 --> 00:21:28.090 You know, and if you've got time to make the wrong decision, you're not focused completely on the job. 312 00:21:29.145 --> 00:21:44.755 If you say it's about balance and about the now, like the eyes are in the front of you to look forward or to look down, not in the back of you to look back, then what is it that's most important in life, given you're a bit older than you were when you were playing for Wellington? 313 00:21:44.795 --> 00:21:46.976 What have you learned to be the most important thing? 314 00:21:49.138 --> 00:21:55.602 Well, I think probably what we touched on before is to make the most of every situation that you have. 315 00:21:56.436 --> 00:22:02.959 to live it to the maximum, you know, and to see the bright side of everything. 316 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:05.401 And I had someone said that to me yesterday. 317 00:22:05.421 --> 00:22:07.862 He said, Murray, you're a bloody optimist. 318 00:22:07.882 --> 00:22:09.523 You're continually being an optimist. 319 00:22:09.983 --> 00:22:12.765 That guy is a rat bag and you're giving him a break. 320 00:22:13.475 --> 00:22:19.318 You know, and I thought I probably am an optimist, really, because it's more fun. 321 00:22:19.979 --> 00:22:22.380 Yeah, and the alternative is bloody dastardly. 322 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:25.322 You know, they actually sit there pondering the negative about it. 323 00:22:25.342 --> 00:22:27.123 But, you know, of course you're bloody positive. 324 00:22:27.143 --> 00:22:31.886 Was it hard, though, you know, when you're at your peak as a player to be different? 325 00:22:32.226 --> 00:22:35.848 Like you were perceived as being different than the traditional All Black 4. 326 00:22:35.888 --> 00:22:37.149 In such a stoic environment. 327 00:22:37.189 --> 00:22:45.432 Yeah, at a time where an all-black forward looked like something, and you were quite happy being, you know, you could do that, you could play that role, but you were different. 328 00:22:45.472 --> 00:22:47.153 So was that hard for you? 329 00:22:48.813 --> 00:22:49.313 I don't know. 330 00:22:49.453 --> 00:22:50.674 I mean, we're all different, aren't we? 331 00:22:50.754 --> 00:22:54.595 I think that Cowboy and I were very different. 332 00:22:54.795 --> 00:22:55.055 Yeah. 333 00:22:55.195 --> 00:22:58.517 But we were absolutely united together. 334 00:22:58.637 --> 00:23:04.078 There's no doubt about that on the field and off the field, actually, even though we're completely different characters. 335 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:04.839 So I suppose... 336 00:23:05.863 --> 00:23:08.346 What you are is what you are, Rick, unless you're trying to hide it. 337 00:23:08.946 --> 00:23:13.731 But what I'm saying is there were more cowboys than there were mexteds in the rugby environment. 338 00:23:14.412 --> 00:23:22.381 Like there was one mexted and there was lots of tough, hard bastard Kiwi Fords that didn't say too much and stuff like that. 339 00:23:22.401 --> 00:23:25.064 But you were an outgoing person, loved life. 340 00:23:25.644 --> 00:23:30.525 I mean, obviously the early years in France helped shape you, time in the towel, all that sort of stuff. 341 00:23:31.205 --> 00:23:35.886 You were quite comfortable in not fitting the stereotype. 342 00:23:36.026 --> 00:23:38.627 You seem to be curious, George, would be what I would say. 343 00:23:38.707 --> 00:23:41.507 Like, you can't get told about it. 344 00:23:41.547 --> 00:23:42.588 You've got to see it with your own eyes. 345 00:23:43.348 --> 00:23:44.608 Would that be a fair... Yeah, mate. 346 00:23:45.168 --> 00:23:46.468 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. 347 00:23:46.988 --> 00:23:48.869 I don't know why I was like I was. 348 00:23:48.929 --> 00:23:54.630 But I do know, and you touched on something before, when I was in France playing rugby... 349 00:23:56.060 --> 00:23:58.021 And I went to France before I made the all-black team. 350 00:23:58.642 --> 00:24:03.544 And I was, you know, it was an unusual thing to do in those days. 351 00:24:03.564 --> 00:24:10.567 There was only one other New Zealander playing rugby in France at that time and one Englishman. 352 00:24:10.627 --> 00:24:15.189 So there were only two people that weren't French playing in a French competition. 353 00:24:15.309 --> 00:24:16.110 Can you speak French? 354 00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:16.610 No. 355 00:24:17.731 --> 00:24:22.753 We usually parloured, but not very well these days. 356 00:24:22.993 --> 00:24:24.934 But now I've just been back to France, actually. 357 00:24:25.533 --> 00:24:31.777 recently and I was a bit gentle for the first couple of days and then I sort of got back into it so I quite enjoyed it. 358 00:24:32.257 --> 00:24:35.359 So I don't think you forget once you learn those things, you don't forget them. 359 00:24:35.740 --> 00:24:46.887 But the French have a different attitude towards life and when I arrived in this town in Agen, I didn't realise that they couldn't speak English. 360 00:24:47.808 --> 00:24:49.929 I mean, I was pretty naive, I suppose. 361 00:24:49.989 --> 00:24:55.410 I came from a little town, and I just assumed that everybody spoke English, but no one spoke English. 362 00:24:56.210 --> 00:25:01.331 And so the only person that could speak English in AGM was the English teacher at the local school. 363 00:25:02.312 --> 00:25:11.254 And so it was a bit of a hard time for the first few months because I couldn't communicate with anybody. 364 00:25:11.794 --> 00:25:15.995 I couldn't understand what the hell they were talking about, and I had to sort of... 365 00:25:16.698 --> 00:25:22.882 really adjust my whole life around what was going on, but with no conversation. 366 00:25:23.042 --> 00:25:24.683 So it was quite

an interesting experience. 367 00:25:25.303 --> 00:25:34.949 And I, you know, and I grew up and I think it probably accentuated my personality in some respects. 368 00:25:35.009 --> 00:25:42.733 I learned a hell of a lot about people in life and to enjoy the, enjoy the moment. 369 00:25:43.273 --> 00:25:44.314 I think it's really important. 370 00:25:44.960 --> 00:26:01.867 It's funny for me, you know, I don't want to blow too much hot air up Mex's backside, but, you know, there's Bob Marley, possibly, well, Frank Sinatra, Muhammad Ali, Hugh Hefner, and Murray Mextier. 371 00:26:02.047 --> 00:26:03.488 That's a hell of a group. 372 00:26:03.968 --> 00:26:05.089 Would be, you know, if... 373 00:26:05.109 --> 00:26:05.929 The ultimate party. 374 00:26:06.049 --> 00:26:09.751 No, well, if you could, you know, say, you know what, I'll trade lives. 375 00:26:11.293 --> 00:26:14.654 yours would be one of them because I think you've actually just done it your way. 376 00:26:14.674 --> 00:26:18.135 There wouldn't be many regrets, I would have thought. 377 00:26:20.095 --> 00:26:24.056 No, that's one of the first expressions I learned in France, actually. 378 00:26:24.076 --> 00:26:25.197 Je ne regret rien. 379 00:26:25.217 --> 00:26:27.217 It means I don't regret anything. 380 00:26:29.177 --> 00:26:35.439 And no, I think that that experience was the greatest thing that happened to me. 381 00:26:36.207 --> 00:26:37.509 because I was all by myself. 382 00:26:37.549 --> 00:26:38.390 I didn't know anyone. 383 00:26:38.410 --> 00:26:42.296 I was living in a little place by myself. 384 00:26:43.137 --> 00:26:44.699 Yeah, no one could talk to me really. 385 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:49.406 I think- I'm guessing that the English teacher was a beautiful woman. 386 00:26:49.606 --> 00:26:51.188 This is just in my imagination. 387 00:26:52.511 --> 00:26:53.032 She was. 388 00:26:53.512 --> 00:26:54.653 I knew it. 389 00:26:54.673 --> 00:26:56.595 She was a teacher. 390 00:26:56.955 --> 00:26:58.537 She was a great teacher. 391 00:26:58.697 --> 00:27:03.681 She was a few years older than me, but she was a very good woman. 392 00:27:03.881 --> 00:27:06.744 I used to go to her place, her and her husband's place. 393 00:27:07.164 --> 00:27:07.765 Give me another beer. 394 00:27:07.785 --> 00:27:08.826 She was married, Mark. 395 00:27:08.966 --> 00:27:09.487 Oh, sorry. 396 00:27:09.547 --> 00:27:10.147 Bugger me. 397 00:27:10.968 --> 00:27:11.929 Yeah, yeah. 398 00:27:12.029 --> 00:27:15.252 But it was lovely because it was the only time I could actually talk to anybody. 399 00:27:15.612 --> 00:27:17.954 And they would invite me for dinner once a week. 400 00:27:18.274 --> 00:27:22.596 We went, we were in South Africa, both working for Sky at the time. 401 00:27:23.397 --> 00:27:28.780 And you went, you showed up at the commentary position with your suitcases. 402 00:27:29.721 --> 00:27:31.742 And I'm like, I think it was in Durban. 403 00:27:32.463 --> 00:27:34.384 And you were like, I said, why have you brought your suitcases? 404 00:27:34.464 --> 00:27:37.006 It's like, oh, mate, we've got an early flight out tomorrow. 405 00:27:37.826 --> 00:27:39.227 Who knows where the night's going to take me? 406 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:44.162 and so you went to the pub with your suitcases. 407 00:27:45.484 --> 00:27:46.124 Bravo. 408 00:27:46.925 --> 00:27:48.167 I don't think that's true. 409 00:27:48.827 --> 00:27:49.949 Just please let it be true. 410 00:27:49.969 --> 00:27:50.629 They're all true. 411 00:27:50.890 --> 00:27:52.592 We've built up these myths. 412 00:27:52.612 --> 00:27:59.900 Yeah, there's actually, there's so many myths about you, you know, which is so delightful that we just keep fueling them and would never undermine them. 413 00:28:00.380 --> 00:28:12.407 So one of the reasons that we started this mix is that Mark bought a house bus and he wanted to share it with people that needed a break, you know, with families and kids and stuff that needed a bit of a break. 414 00:28:12.427 --> 00:28:13.468 And a lot of it was about... 415 00:28:14.115 --> 00:28:18.898 the sense of community that we had when we were growing up, and people would look out for each other. 416 00:28:19.458 --> 00:28:23.640 So we got Gold Petroleum in to help us sort of put this project together. 417 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:25.701 Yeah, Gold Hills. 418 00:28:26.082 --> 00:28:29.864 The old Bedford 71 house bus has been... Sleeps 5 mix. 419 00:28:29.904 --> 00:28:30.784 You can whack a few. 420 00:28:31.004 --> 00:28:34.867 If you ever need to borrow it and do a road trip around New Zealand, I mean, we could even ship it overseas. 421 00:28:34.887 --> 00:28:36.848 So long as you can do a manual. 422 00:28:36.988 --> 00:28:38.369 And so we've been sharing with families. 423 00:28:38.389 --> 00:28:40.810 Next set motors, you can drive a manual. 424 00:28:40.990 --> 00:28:42.171 We've been sharing it with families. 425 00:28:42.211 --> 00:28:43.092 I've got my bag packed. 426 00:28:43.152 --> 00:28:44.333 It's right here with me now. 427 00:28:44.473 --> 00:28:45.374 Yeah, of course you have. 428 00:28:45.574 --> 00:28:46.855 He's always got a bag packed. 429 00:28:47.275 --> 00:28:53.080 But we've been sharing it with families, you know, who mums and kids have taken away just wanting a break. 430 00:28:53.140 --> 00:28:56.182 And it's been a magnificent project. 431 00:28:57.143 --> 00:28:59.185 I just wanted to ask you about Tawa. 432 00:28:59.705 --> 00:29:00.766 That was your community. 433 00:29:01.387 --> 00:29:03.108 How much did your community shape you? 434 00:29:05.514 --> 00:29:08.596 Oh, everyone's shaped by their community, aren't they, really? 435 00:29:08.976 --> 00:29:11.838 And I guess I was lucky when I look back. 436 00:29:12.338 --> 00:29:15.020 Well, I grew up next to the rugby club. 437 00:29:15.380 --> 00:29:20.043 We were on the boundary of, you know, just outside the 22. 438 00:29:20.183 --> 00:29:25.426 So my

life was pretty much every day after school. 439 00:29:25.566 --> 00:29:31.209 My life was around that Lintus Park area and the creek that ran through Lintus Park. 440 00:29:32.050 --> 00:29:32.190 Yeah. 441 00:29:33.232 --> 00:29:42.057 And I often think about that, actually, that I grew up next to a rugby club and we had a little batch just north of Wellington on the beach. 442 00:29:42.718 --> 00:29:48.921 And I grew up in the summer next to a surf club and a rugby club during the winter. 443 00:29:48.981 --> 00:29:54.665 So it was probably what defined the direction I moved in my life. 444 00:29:54.705 --> 00:30:00.948 But I think I was lucky, too, because rugby clubs are a community thing, aren't they? 445 00:30:01.268 --> 00:30:01.829 And everyone... 446 00:30:02.448 --> 00:30:05.330 everyone has to contribute and everyone comes from different places. 447 00:30:06.911 --> 00:30:11.815 And the team itself, the rugby team, has 15 players on the field. 448 00:30:11.895 --> 00:30:15.438 I mean, what other sport has 15 players? 449 00:30:15.598 --> 00:30:16.919 And you've really got to work together. 450 00:30:16.939 --> 00:30:21.503 And if you don't work together and you're all different, if you don't work together, you won't get a good result. 451 00:30:22.063 --> 00:30:25.746 So I think you learn a hell of a lot from a sport like rugby. 452 00:30:26.934 --> 00:30:41.560 It's funny, watching the Wellington team when I was growing up, you know, and it's so stoic and structured and the All Blacks are so, there was no ability to show personality really as such. 453 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:45.742 You know, now you've got, you know, the McCaws and the Carters of this world who are superstars. 454 00:30:46.522 --> 00:30:50.345 But back in the day, only the team captain would talk and the team management. 455 00:30:50.385 --> 00:30:52.107 But you had Bernie, Stu. 456 00:30:52.247 --> 00:30:53.088 No, this is my point. 457 00:30:53.388 --> 00:30:54.289 Everything was constrained. 458 00:30:54.309 --> 00:30:59.092 But that Wellington team, they were just, it seemed as a young kid, there were so many characters in that Wellington team. 459 00:30:59.112 --> 00:30:59.673 So much personality. 460 00:30:59.693 --> 00:31:00.754 Yeah, so much personality. 461 00:31:00.774 --> 00:31:09.261 Do you think that was part of the liberation or the push that allowed you to just be free with who you were and just to celebrate it? 462 00:31:10.502 --> 00:31:11.422 Yeah, I'm not sure. 463 00:31:11.482 --> 00:31:14.605 I mean, you know, Wellington, the central city was a city. 464 00:31:15.065 --> 00:31:19.048 Everywhere else was, you know, pretty rural, really, the suburbs. 465 00:31:20.509 --> 00:31:31.396 And there was a great mix in that team of all around Wellington and out of Wellington, you know, like Upper Hutt, Lower Hutt, those sorts of areas, and Puri Rua. 466 00:31:32.036 --> 00:31:40.142 You know, and there's different suburbs that make up the collective city

itself where the team was picked from. 467 00:31:40.182 --> 00:31:41.643 So I guess... 468 00:31:42.748 --> 00:31:45.810 We were always called a city team, but in many respects we weren't. 469 00:31:45.851 --> 00:31:49.553 I mean, Auckland City was a city team, for sure. 470 00:31:49.633 --> 00:31:50.394 But I don't think... 471 00:31:51.353 --> 00:31:53.956 Canterbury and Wellington were so much of a city team. 472 00:31:54.396 --> 00:31:55.978 That's where Eric Watson got it wrong. 473 00:31:56.178 --> 00:31:57.239 There were some extremes. 474 00:31:58.020 --> 00:32:00.382 But in most rugby teams, though, there are extremes, aren't there? 475 00:32:00.402 --> 00:32:06.168 When you think about it, you think about the teams you played in, Mark, and there were some real extremes. 476 00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:10.192 But I think the most important thing is that it helps your life, doesn't it? 477 00:32:10.212 --> 00:32:13.836 If you play rugby and you're with people from different levels, 478 00:32:14.616 --> 00:32:18.521 with different intentions, different ideas, different thoughts. 479 00:32:19.041 --> 00:32:21.604 The more you mix with those people, the more it opens up your mind. 480 00:32:22.245 --> 00:32:24.107 And that's what I think is so good about it. 481 00:32:25.513 --> 00:32:35.964 This won't make the cut, but when you're on an all-black tour, and there are a few other guys who'd go out wearing their bloody all-black ties and with the pins that they'd hand out, and I always used to hate that. 482 00:32:35.984 --> 00:32:46.374 I'd go back to the hotel, chuck on a pair of jeans and a T-shirt and go to a fucking dive bar or a bohemian bar where you could talk poetry or find some people wearing crushed velvet who actually... 483 00:32:47.155 --> 00:32:48.636 knew nothing of why you were there. 484 00:32:49.336 --> 00:32:51.897 I'd imagine that that would be exactly your play too. 485 00:32:51.917 --> 00:32:55.499 You wouldn't have, in any way, shape or form, worn it unless you had to. 486 00:32:56.180 --> 00:33:00.842 You'd have been back alley's alley, wouldn't you? 487 00:33:01.542 --> 00:33:04.123 In those days, it was a little different, Mark. 488 00:33:05.004 --> 00:33:06.565 It was the dirty dirties that weren't 489 00:33:08.376 --> 00:33:11.798 were meant to go out every Thursday night and let their hair down. 490 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:12.399 Yep. 491 00:33:12.419 --> 00:33:13.320 I was pretty good at that. 492 00:33:13.340 --> 00:33:15.561 So if you weren't playing rock... 493 00:33:16.883 --> 00:33:24.469 So the idea was that you wouldn't wear anything to distinguish you that made you look like you were an All Black on tour. 494 00:33:24.489 --> 00:33:27.171 You'd go out in Mufti. 495 00:33:27.371 --> 00:33:29.132 And it was accepted. 496 00:33:29.333 --> 00:33:35.898 The dirty dirties were, if you weren't playing, you were out in the town and you were going to have a good time and you had to be back for breakfast. 497 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:48.210 Do you know the 95 World Cup when the food poisoning hit, Brian Lahore came to my room and he's like, Rick, I've got a very important conversation to have with you. 498 00:33:48.971 --> 00:33:51.053 And it was really, really super serious. 499 00:33:51.113 --> 00:33:52.094 I said, what's happened? 500 00:33:52.114 --> 00:33:54.356 Because it had been a pretty tumultuous sort of few days. 501 00:33:54.396 --> 00:33:55.077 And he's like, look – 502 00:33:56.238 --> 00:33:59.779 We just can't afford, we don't know who's fit, who's unfit. 503 00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:01.499 We don't know who's going to be playing in the final. 504 00:34:03.339 --> 00:34:05.260 The team have to stay in tonight. 505 00:34:05.600 --> 00:34:06.940 This is just before the World Cup final. 506 00:34:07.420 --> 00:34:10.981 He's like, but we have to have a dirty, dirty night. 507 00:34:11.181 --> 00:34:12.681 It's tradition. 508 00:34:13.061 --> 00:34:20.723 And so I need you and Earl Curtin to go out and you're not allowed back in the hotel till 4.30 in the morning. 509 00:34:21.938 --> 00:34:41.005 and that was and I'm like I'm sort of laughing and he's like really serious he's like mate this is tradition you can't break tradition it's bad luck so I'm out with Ernie till 4.30 in the morning yeah well you know it was a good night who were some of the great characters that you played with who were some of your favourite sort of out of the box type people 510 00:34:42.375 --> 00:34:45.918 Well, I think Stu Wilson heads the list. 511 00:34:45.998 --> 00:34:47.319 He was an absolute delight. 512 00:34:48.240 --> 00:34:53.003 And I knew Stu before we both made the All Black team. 513 00:34:53.924 --> 00:34:58.828 And he lived in Tawa, actually, where I come from. 514 00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:02.451 And he used to call his flat moon base. 515 00:35:04.112 --> 00:35:06.834 And it was elevated. 516 00:35:06.854 --> 00:35:11.358 Tawa is a little valley and there's hills on both sides. 517 00:35:12.252 --> 00:35:15.475 and the main street goes through the centre of town. 518 00:35:15.495 --> 00:35:22.381 The centre of town goes through two slopes, basically, and he was up on the slope, and that was Moonbase. 519 00:35:22.421 --> 00:35:32.429 And I do remember lots of things happening in that Moonbase that were very, very funny and very, very entertaining. 520 00:35:32.469 --> 00:35:39.255 And one of them was that we got back there one night at about five o'clock in the morning, I think it was, 521 00:35:40.257 --> 00:35:41.657 and somewhere around there. 522 00:35:42.318 --> 00:35:44.338 And the sun was just starting to rise. 523 00:35:45.258 --> 00:35:50.520 And he got out his golf clubs at 5 or 5.30 in the morning. 524 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:55.941 And you could look right down the main street of Tawa. 525 00:35:56.581 --> 00:36:00.202 And there wasn't much going on at 5.30 in the morning in Tawa in those days. 526 00:36:01.083 --> 00:36:08.925 And so he

got his number one driver and he drove a ball down the main street of Tawa. 527 00:36:10.092 --> 00:36:17.941 And he drove, I don't know how far it was, maybe I'll exaggerate, but maybe it was 100 metres, 100 maybe, maybe more in flight. 528 00:36:18.802 --> 00:36:23.888 And it landed on the main road and it bounced and it bounced and it bounced. 529 00:36:24.468 --> 00:36:26.130 And of course, that was the funniest thing. 530 00:36:26.170 --> 00:36:26.971 We just loved it. 531 00:36:26.991 --> 00:36:27.712 We were laughing. 532 00:36:28.232 --> 00:36:29.153 you know, nonstop. 533 00:36:29.233 --> 00:36:31.114 And so we were all giving it a go. 534 00:36:31.955 --> 00:36:36.778 And so we had every single ball he had in his bag down the main street. 535 00:36:37.138 --> 00:36:43.463 And balls were going off to the right and off to the left and hitting bloody houses and landing on roofs. 536 00:36:44.263 --> 00:36:45.003 all sorts of things. 537 00:36:45.043 --> 00:36:48.945 So, yeah, I don't know what got me onto that, but Stu Wilson was a character. 538 00:36:49.165 --> 00:36:55.126 But it's when you're setting up that golf ball and you're going, fuck off, he's not going to do it. 539 00:36:55.146 --> 00:36:57.027 But he hits it and it goes straight. 540 00:36:57.607 --> 00:37:01.208 And it keeps – I mean, that's the bit that you have to be there. 541 00:37:01.468 --> 00:37:03.169 But that's golden, you know. 542 00:37:03.189 --> 00:37:04.349 It just keeps on going. 543 00:37:04.549 --> 00:37:09.271 Like, it's half a percent or half a degree, but you nail it. 544 00:37:09.451 --> 00:37:10.231 I mean, it's perfect. 545 00:37:10.271 --> 00:37:11.632 Yeah, you know, it's the max. 546 00:37:11.692 --> 00:37:12.792 It's an orgasm, isn't it? 547 00:37:13.072 --> 00:37:14.433 Straight down the sandra, you know. 548 00:37:15.273 --> 00:37:21.896 Yeah, but in the one-off at five in the morning when, you know, people are not meant to be doing that and it actually does what your minds will it to do. 549 00:37:22.116 --> 00:37:22.416 Yeah. 550 00:37:22.776 --> 00:37:23.217 Splendid. 551 00:37:23.757 --> 00:37:25.017 Yeah, he was a great man, Stu. 552 00:37:25.938 --> 00:37:26.478 Yeah, he was. 553 00:37:26.498 --> 00:37:30.520 He was a character and he was a lot of fun and he was a great rugby player. 554 00:37:30.620 --> 00:37:30.820 Yeah. 555 00:37:31.080 --> 00:37:33.221 He just had beautiful balance, you know. 556 00:37:33.861 --> 00:37:39.664 So top speed, Bernie had more gas on absolute top speed. 557 00:37:40.264 --> 00:37:43.187 But Stu could change direction without losing pace. 558 00:37:43.928 --> 00:37:45.650 It was sort of a swerve too, wasn't it? 559 00:37:45.670 --> 00:37:47.832 It wasn't a sidestep as such. 560 00:37:47.852 --> 00:37:49.494 It was a swerve. 561 00:37:49.574 --> 00:37:51.336 Definitely a swerve. 562 00:37:51.376 --> 00:37:53.418 It sort of just glided past, you know. 563 00:37:53.438 --> 00:37:54.840 A bit Christian Cullen-esque. 564 00:37:56.101 --> 00:37:58.524 Yeah, yeah, very similar, although I think – 565 00:37:59.982 --> 00:38:01.903 Kellen could change direction, couldn't he? 566 00:38:02.003 --> 00:38:02.763 Yeah. 567 00:38:03.384 --> 00:38:05.524 Stu would sort of move in that direction. 568 00:38:05.845 --> 00:38:07.125 He wouldn't change direction. 569 00:38:07.505 --> 00:38:10.427 You see a guy throw a sidestep and then bang. 570 00:38:10.747 --> 00:38:10.927 Yeah. 571 00:38:11.007 --> 00:38:13.968 He'd just sort of glide through the gap. 572 00:38:14.128 --> 00:38:16.029 Bruce Robertson could do that as well. 573 00:38:16.830 --> 00:38:19.251 And it was, you know, it was a pleasure to watch. 574 00:38:19.811 --> 00:38:23.232 But his balance meant that he was difficult to tackle. 575 00:38:23.252 --> 00:38:25.773 So unless it was really a good... And he was big back then. 576 00:38:25.854 --> 00:38:27.534 And he was a big man, yeah. 577 00:38:27.554 --> 00:38:28.855 And he was big and strong and... 578 00:38:29.475 --> 00:38:31.476 and fast, but he was a great golfer. 579 00:38:32.177 --> 00:38:33.438 He was on a low handicap. 580 00:38:33.558 --> 00:38:41.543 I mean, you don't hit a ball down the main street of Tawa from an elevated position at 5 o'clock in the morning if you're not a good golfer. 581 00:38:41.624 --> 00:38:42.904 A lot of people don't realise. 582 00:38:43.085 --> 00:38:46.387 Well, you kind of hope that he was a shit golfer and he just nailed that one shot. 583 00:38:46.447 --> 00:38:47.388 You know, the shot. 584 00:38:47.408 --> 00:38:48.949 You only need that. 585 00:38:48.969 --> 00:38:50.009 You never play golf again. 586 00:38:50.029 --> 00:38:53.052 No, but we all thought we could play golf then. 587 00:38:53.112 --> 00:38:54.993 When we saw that, we all thought it was easy. 588 00:38:55.013 --> 00:38:55.113 Yeah. 589 00:38:56.185 --> 00:38:59.630 Mix, a lot of people don't realise that you're actually officially younger than me. 590 00:39:00.552 --> 00:39:01.093 Well, I would. 591 00:39:01.393 --> 00:39:02.855 Just look at the bloody two cameras. 592 00:39:02.875 --> 00:39:07.943 Well, yeah, but I grew up watching him when I was at school and he was in all black, but he's actually younger than me. 593 00:39:08.764 --> 00:39:09.305 Can you explain? 594 00:39:12.581 --> 00:39:13.382 Can I explain? 595 00:39:13.402 --> 00:39:14.703 No, I can't explain. 596 00:39:14.723 --> 00:39:16.544 No. 597 00:39:16.584 --> 00:39:22.348 Well, I did change my age by depol at one stage, so maybe that had something to do with it. 598 00:39:22.548 --> 00:39:22.788 Yeah. 599 00:39:23.229 --> 00:39:25.510 I took 10 years off my life, actually. 600 00:39:25.891 --> 00:39:26.571 Shit idea. 601 00:39:26.591 --> 00:39:27.692 That's a bloody good idea. 602 00:39:27.732 --> 00:39:27.992 Yeah. 603 00:39:28.392 --> 00:39:31.214 Yeah, well, I got sick and tired of people asking me how old I was. 604 00:39:32.635 --> 00:39:35.978 So is it on your

driver's license? 605 00:39:35.998 --> 00:39:37.399 You can pull it out and just, you know... 606 00:39:38.308 --> 00:39:39.729 No, they wouldn't go that far. 607 00:39:39.749 --> 00:39:40.949 It was a bit hard, actually. 608 00:39:40.969 --> 00:39:49.833 I remember going to births, deaths of marriages, and asking the little guy behind the counter with his glasses, I said, can you change my date of birth, please? 609 00:39:49.853 --> 00:39:51.534 He said, oh, I've never been asked that before. 610 00:39:52.534 --> 00:39:53.434 And I said, can we? 611 00:39:53.474 --> 00:39:54.795 And he said, oh, I'm not sure. 612 00:39:54.835 --> 00:39:56.196 I'll have to look into it. 613 00:39:56.576 --> 00:39:57.236 Bloody brilliant. 614 00:39:57.256 --> 00:40:01.218 But as it happened, in the end, you know, you can't change your date of birth. 615 00:40:01.238 --> 00:40:04.599 But I decided at that stage that I would change it. 616 00:40:04.959 --> 00:40:06.940 And so I took 10 years off my life, and... 617 00:40:07.629 --> 00:40:08.350 At that moment. 618 00:40:08.850 --> 00:40:10.651 Yeah, that's brilliant. 619 00:40:10.711 --> 00:40:18.578 The first test match I ever covered as a journalist was the third test against South Africa in 81. 620 00:40:18.938 --> 00:40:31.267 That was the first test match that I was assigned to as a journalist, which was still one of the most surreal, one of the most incredible games of sport that I've ever been to. 621 00:40:31.287 --> 00:40:32.048 Is that Hamilton? 622 00:40:32.068 --> 00:40:32.208 Yeah. 623 00:40:32.308 --> 00:40:33.749 Now that was Auckland, Eden Park. 624 00:40:34.049 --> 00:40:35.250 That was the flower bombs. 625 00:40:36.050 --> 00:40:40.112 It was an unbelievable, and it was an incredible game of rugby. 626 00:40:40.292 --> 00:40:45.915 Like it was just, I don't think people appreciate what an incredible event it was. 627 00:40:46.396 --> 00:40:48.337 Gary Whetton made his debut at 21. 628 00:40:48.377 --> 00:40:50.358 It was just, and you were in the middle of that. 629 00:40:51.358 --> 00:40:55.561 You know, that must have been an amazing, amazing thing to be part of. 630 00:40:57.722 --> 00:41:00.003 I think it was harder for Huey than it was for me. 631 00:41:01.403 --> 00:41:12.587 because Hughie was playing at fullback and he was just standing there watching this plane coming in towards him, dropping flower bombs and doing silly stuff. 632 00:41:13.407 --> 00:41:30.032 But I was in the forwards and I think that same ability to focus that we were talking about before was apparent in that game for me because we sort of knew that unless we had our mind completely on the job, we weren't going to beat those guys. 633 00:41:30.798 --> 00:41:32.139 because they were an awesome team. 634 00:41:32.739 --> 00:41:40.265 And we didn't have Cowboys, so it was the first time I'd played for many years without Cowboy blocking in the line-out for me. 635 00:41:41.646 --> 00:41:44.388 So it was a real challenge, that game. 636 00:41:44.408 --> 00:41:50.673 So my focus was actually, it sounds ridiculous, the only time that I can remember during that game 637 00:41:51.333 --> 00:41:58.955 that interfered with my focus on the match was when Gary Knight, one of those flower bombs hit Gary Knight on the head. 638 00:42:00.015 --> 00:42:04.677 And he was about, Axel was about the most powerful guy we had in our team. 639 00:42:05.697 --> 00:42:12.019 And it flattened him, you know, and he got up and shook his head and ended up carrying on. 640 00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:13.359 He got about 30 seconds. 641 00:42:14.019 --> 00:42:16.800 I think the ref gave him 30 seconds and then we started again. 642 00:42:17.700 --> 00:42:21.261 But that was the only interference that I can remember. 643 00:42:21.782 --> 00:42:24.503 But it was hell for Huey. 644 00:42:24.983 --> 00:42:28.064 Huey wasn't too keen on the plane coming towards him. 645 00:42:28.444 --> 00:42:28.924 That's funny. 646 00:42:28.944 --> 00:42:30.505 When he was standing out in the open. 647 00:42:30.585 --> 00:42:35.207 It must have been around that time that, you know, the kicking the ball over and good kick, lad, happened. 648 00:42:35.427 --> 00:42:42.510 And I remember in 1981 going in the protest in a tour outside the South African embassy in Wadestown. 649 00:42:42.890 --> 00:42:43.190 You did? 650 00:42:43.650 --> 00:42:43.870 Yeah. 651 00:42:44.190 --> 00:42:48.752 And I held a placard that just said, and I'm not religious, but it just, God created all men equal. 652 00:42:48.792 --> 00:42:51.492 Because to me, the two were intertwined. 653 00:42:51.572 --> 00:42:56.013 The fact that we were saying no to South Africa, we won't play with you, was hurting them. 654 00:42:57.254 --> 00:43:03.075 And that to me was, you know, he's a young kid and was quite a good thing because... 655 00:43:03.095 --> 00:43:05.176 So you would have been 10 years old? 656 00:43:05.196 --> 00:43:05.996 10 years old. 657 00:43:06.136 --> 00:43:08.177 Yeah, it was a good thing because... 658 00:43:09.457 --> 00:43:14.220 it made them stop and think, you know, and that was a moment where New Zealand was divided. 659 00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:20.904 And I loved the fact that we came in behind a cause and it was, you know, New Zealand's divided now, but it feels. 660 00:43:21.064 --> 00:43:26.907 But there were Maori and Pakeha, we were all bloody putting on helmets and they were all getting whacked at the same rate. 661 00:43:27.247 --> 00:43:31.309 But I kind of, that to me is a moment of pride, you know, along with 662 00:43:32.350 --> 00:43:51.318 you know no nukes but you mix how how did you differentiate between what you know we're all different opinion but the morality the human aspect of it the game of rugby how did you deal with that in your own mind because you're a deep thinker 663 00:43:52.895 --> 00:43:54.296 Yeah, I don't know, really. 664 00:43:54.356 --> 00:43:56.476 I mean, I don't know if I am a deep thinker.

665 00:43:56.496 --> 00:43:57.237 I don't know about that. 666 00:43:57.277 --> 00:44:02.539 But all I know is that, you know, if you want to. 667 00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:03.239 You're empathetic. 668 00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:06.540 Yeah, yeah, I guess I've got empathy. 669 00:44:06.580 --> 00:44:11.502 But to me, I've never been, I've never judged, you know. 670 00:44:13.043 --> 00:44:13.543 I've sort of. 671 00:44:14.627 --> 00:44:22.174 You hear stories about people and things, but I've always taken people on their face value of what I find. 672 00:44:23.776 --> 00:44:28.940 So it's more about my own experiences rather than hearing of others. 673 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:31.903 So I've never been wound up in stuff like that. 674 00:44:32.884 --> 00:44:35.847 And my focus at that time was to play rugby. 675 00:44:36.697 --> 00:44:44.740 and it wasn't to criticise the position the guy I was marking or the team I was playing. 676 00:44:45.540 --> 00:44:47.901 I wanted to do the best I could for the team I was in. 677 00:44:48.621 --> 00:44:50.301 But it's quite interesting, Mark. 678 00:44:50.341 --> 00:44:54.983 I just went back to South Africa a couple of weeks ago. 679 00:44:55.423 --> 00:45:05.446 I was visiting a mate of mine in Brisbane who was going through chemo, and he wasn't, you know, things were... 680 00:45:06.720 --> 00:45:08.601 And he's an old school mate and things weren't so good. 681 00:45:09.242 --> 00:45:18.208 So I'd gone over there because I thought, well, by the time you finish your chemo, he mightn't be as good as he is right now at the beginning of his chemo. 682 00:45:18.668 --> 00:45:20.109 Is he going to be better after it? 683 00:45:20.309 --> 00:45:23.432 You don't really know when you go through that program. 684 00:45:23.992 --> 00:45:26.754 So I got on the plane and I flew over to Brisbane. 685 00:45:26.974 --> 00:45:31.257 And he sent me a text to say, I'll pick you up. 686 00:45:32.083 --> 00:45:33.965 And I thought, shit, is he well enough to pick me up? 687 00:45:34.025 --> 00:45:36.807 So he's about four days into his chemo. 688 00:45:37.207 --> 00:45:41.932 And so he picked me up and he was quite good and he drove me home to his place. 689 00:45:42.292 --> 00:45:44.614 And we sat up and watched the test match together. 690 00:45:44.634 --> 00:45:45.355 It was fantastic. 691 00:45:46.055 --> 00:45:49.778 But after that game, I thought how fickle life can be. 692 00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:54.523 Here is one of my old schoolmates going through this chemotherapy. 693 00:45:55.263 --> 00:45:57.045 And is it going to be successful or not? 694 00:45:57.927 --> 00:46:01.090 And it looks like it might be, so I'm very pleased about that. 695 00:46:01.130 --> 00:46:08.736 But at the time, we had this lovely night, just the two of us, up in the middle of the night watching the first test against the Springboks, which we won. 696 00:46:09.637 --> 00:46:14.961 And I thought during that time, I thought I should be bloody over in

South Africa. 697 00:46:15.561 --> 00:46:23.388 So the next morning when we got out of bed, we both sort of worked out how to buy me a ticket online from Brisbane to Johannesburg. 698 00:46:24.475 --> 00:46:30.241 and back to Brisbane where I had a return ticket to go back to New Zealand. 699 00:46:30.361 --> 00:46:31.602 But I didn't have any clothes. 700 00:46:31.682 --> 00:46:38.308 I only had a little kit bag because I'd really only gone for three or four days to see my mate. 701 00:46:39.149 --> 00:46:40.410 So I hopped on a plane. 702 00:46:40.430 --> 00:46:47.156 I had to get off in Perth and overnight in Perth because there's no flights direct from Brisbane to Johannesburg. 703 00:46:47.537 --> 00:46:48.578 You've got to stop in Perth. 704 00:46:49.303 --> 00:46:55.227 So I stayed with another friend that night in Perth who I hadn't seen for bloody years, also from Tawa. 705 00:46:56.087 --> 00:46:58.209 And that was bloody good. 706 00:46:58.309 --> 00:47:02.992 And we watched the second test together there because I got there on the Friday night. 707 00:47:03.912 --> 00:47:05.353 I got there on the Saturday morning. 708 00:47:05.373 --> 00:47:06.114 That's where I watched it. 709 00:47:06.714 --> 00:47:08.915 And then I flew off to Johannesburg the next day. 710 00:47:09.816 --> 00:47:12.337 And, you know, I borrowed a... 711 00:47:14.007 --> 00:47:22.325 a jacket off something because I was dressed like you Mark with short sleeve t-shirt and a pair of shorts and it's bloody cold 712 00:47:22.987 --> 00:47:26.988 after dark at 6,000 feet above sea level. 713 00:47:27.448 --> 00:47:29.249 And that's what Johannesburg is, I believe. 714 00:47:29.569 --> 00:47:36.010 And so I wasn't prepared, but I had the most fantastic week. 715 00:47:36.610 --> 00:47:47.973 But getting to my point of the story is that what I found extraordinary in the 80,000 people stadium was 70,000 of those people in that stadium were black Africans. 716 00:47:49.190 --> 00:47:50.813 And they were into it. 717 00:47:51.073 --> 00:47:52.375 They were into the game. 718 00:47:53.056 --> 00:48:03.150 And, you know, when you spend time in Africa, you become aware of this tribal dancing, the way they move, the way the body moves with the music. 719 00:48:04.084 --> 00:48:07.106 And not even without the music sometimes. 720 00:48:08.066 --> 00:48:11.648 And that's what I experienced in this game that I hadn't before. 721 00:48:11.688 --> 00:48:15.691 And when I played there, the grandstand was predominantly full of white people. 722 00:48:16.331 --> 00:48:19.293 And now it's 90% full of black people. 723 00:48:19.753 --> 00:48:19.993 Yeah. 724 00:48:20.393 --> 00:48:32.520 And a lot of those people don't necessarily come from Southern Africa because they're coming over the border every day, hundreds and hundreds of them, because there's no policing of the border any longer. 725 00:48:33.221 --> 00:48:33.401 And... 726 00:48:34.376 --> 00:48:39.120 South Africa is seen as the land of milk and honey for North Africans coming through. 727 00:48:39.160 --> 00:48:42.122 So it's a real complicated mess now. 728 00:48:42.403 --> 00:48:44.284 How many of them were in all black shirts? 729 00:48:44.805 --> 00:48:49.829 Because when we played in 92, we got off the plane at three o'clock in the morning and there were 3,000 people. 730 00:48:49.849 --> 00:48:52.111 And I'd say there were, you know, 2,800 were black people. 731 00:48:53.692 --> 00:48:58.678 Because they loved the All Blacks and what they stood for and the fact that they'd actually rooted for them in 81. 732 00:48:59.680 --> 00:49:00.901 That was my perception. 733 00:49:01.001 --> 00:49:03.304 Yeah, I think those are coloreds. 734 00:49:03.565 --> 00:49:11.415 Those people that wear the All Black jerseys are mainly coloreds and they come from Cape Town, Western Province, which is where all the coloreds come from. 735 00:49:11.915 --> 00:49:13.715 And Cullard's a mixed race. 736 00:49:14.356 --> 00:49:16.556 And there's still a lot of those in Cape Town. 737 00:49:16.576 --> 00:49:21.177 But no, Johannesburg, I don't think I saw anybody wearing an all-black jersey. 738 00:49:22.538 --> 00:49:25.458 And as I said, 90% were black Africans. 739 00:49:25.898 --> 00:49:29.279 And they were definitely moving in time together. 740 00:49:29.299 --> 00:49:30.620 It was an extraordinary atmosphere. 741 00:49:31.020 --> 00:49:34.020 I'd never really experienced it, I suppose, before. 742 00:49:34.641 --> 00:49:36.561 Max, give me – I've just had a pass, Rick. 743 00:49:36.581 --> 00:49:37.361 I've had four beers. 744 00:49:37.661 --> 00:49:38.341 But please don't go. 745 00:49:38.361 --> 00:49:39.342 Please don't go. 746 00:49:41.772 --> 00:49:43.093 He's got a useless bladder. 747 00:49:43.353 --> 00:49:45.195 I'll ask you a question while he's gone. 748 00:49:45.215 --> 00:49:47.897 I just want to ask you about surfing. 749 00:49:48.057 --> 00:49:49.037 Just get away from rugby. 750 00:49:49.958 --> 00:49:51.599 How important is surfing in your life? 751 00:49:52.660 --> 00:49:57.263 Well, it's been important because I think it's my place to escape. 752 00:49:58.204 --> 00:50:06.770 I think, you know, we spoke about mental focus before, which I've used as an attribute and developed it into a skill. 753 00:50:06.790 --> 00:50:07.391 I've got a lot of fun. 754 00:50:09.243 --> 00:50:13.325 And I think when you have intensity, you've got to balance those books. 755 00:50:13.685 --> 00:50:17.328 So I think I've mentioned you've got to be balanced. 756 00:50:17.488 --> 00:50:22.892 So if you have time where your absolute focus is intense, you don't want to be like that all the time, do you? 757 00:50:23.832 --> 00:50:25.353 But you've also got to have the opposite. 758 00:50:25.373 --> 00:50:30.937 And the opposite is sitting on a board out to sea and feeling the motion of the ocean. 759 00:50:32.154 --> 00:50:41.797 Yeah, but also, did you manage to sort of get, like at

any time during a Test match build up, have you sneaked out and gone for a surf? 760 00:50:42.178 --> 00:50:52.621 I remember surfing with JK actually in Argentina before the Test match, but I'm not quite sure whether it was the day before or the morning of, I can't recall. 761 00:50:53.742 --> 00:50:55.482 Let's say it was the day before, shall we? 762 00:50:55.622 --> 00:50:56.282 Yeah, that's better. 763 00:50:58.536 --> 00:51:00.196 just in case anyone's listening. 764 00:51:01.657 --> 00:51:06.338 Yeah, so that's my way of relaxation, you know. 765 00:51:06.838 --> 00:51:13.579 The motion of the ocean is the business, and that's why I'm now living on the beach. 766 00:51:13.619 --> 00:51:17.700 You did sneak in early in this that you used to play in the backs. 767 00:51:18.560 --> 00:51:19.400 What was the story there? 768 00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:23.661 Well, I think, you know, when you grow up in a small town and you, 769 00:51:24.396 --> 00:51:28.839 and you haven't got enough players, everyone fills holes. 770 00:51:29.799 --> 00:51:38.445 And when I was younger, I was trying to work out, as I said that, I was trying to work out when I did change to number eight. 771 00:51:38.945 --> 00:51:42.007 I don't think I changed to play, I used to play fullback most of the time. 772 00:51:42.507 --> 00:51:44.168 I don't think I changed to number eight. 773 00:51:44.408 --> 00:51:48.431 I played centre when I was in the secondary school rep team, that's right. 774 00:51:48.451 --> 00:51:49.972 I remember that, the... 775 00:51:51.543 --> 00:51:55.126 Did they call it the, you'll know this, Centurion Colts? 776 00:51:55.346 --> 00:51:56.507 Have you heard of that, Mark? 777 00:51:56.988 --> 00:51:57.908 That's Wellington, yeah? 778 00:51:57.968 --> 00:51:58.189 Yeah. 779 00:51:58.609 --> 00:51:59.950 Yeah, Centurion Colts. 780 00:51:59.990 --> 00:52:00.490 The colours. 781 00:52:00.891 --> 00:52:01.111 Yeah. 782 00:52:01.611 --> 00:52:06.035 A school team, I think, and I played in that, and I know I played centre in that game. 783 00:52:06.275 --> 00:52:06.495 Wow. 784 00:52:06.575 --> 00:52:10.438 So I must have been about 15 or something like that, I guess. 785 00:52:11.098 --> 00:52:15.642 So yeah, so I didn't play in number eight until I was my last year at school. 786 00:52:16.695 --> 00:52:18.396 Now, just one other question. 787 00:52:18.416 --> 00:52:24.117 I mean, Hughie, when he was wearing the bloody tights, remember he wore the stockings and the gloves? 788 00:52:24.197 --> 00:52:25.898 Did you guys give him a bit of jiff about that? 789 00:52:25.938 --> 00:52:26.618 Did you rib him? 790 00:52:26.938 --> 00:52:29.059 Or did you just go, good on you, mate, go for it? 791 00:52:30.059 --> 00:52:31.279 No, no, we didn't. 792 00:52:31.319 --> 00:52:31.820 Of course not. 793 00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:32.740 It was bloody cold. 794 00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:36.020 You know, it was bloody cold. 795 00:52:36.140 --> 00:52:40.242 Athletic Park with a bloody southerly buster, but that's some ballsy stuff, isn't it? 796 00:52:40.322 --> 00:52:42.362 It was Carersbrook, wasn't it? 797 00:52:42.382 --> 00:52:42.442 No. 798 00:52:42.823 --> 00:52:43.723 It was in Dunedin. 799 00:52:43.923 --> 00:52:45.764 Yeah, but he did it in Athletic Park too, wasn't he? 800 00:52:45.784 --> 00:52:46.484 No, it was Dunedin. 801 00:52:46.884 --> 00:52:47.464 No, it was Dunedin. 802 00:52:47.564 --> 00:52:48.365 Did he only do it once? 803 00:52:48.485 --> 00:52:48.685 Nope. 804 00:52:49.526 --> 00:52:51.347 I think he only did it once and it was Dunedin. 805 00:52:51.467 --> 00:52:51.727 Yeah. 806 00:52:52.327 --> 00:52:52.427 Ah. 807 00:52:52.728 --> 00:52:54.628 And it was bloody cold. 808 00:52:54.648 --> 00:52:55.369 It really was. 809 00:52:55.429 --> 00:52:57.670 But remember, he's sitting there at fullback. 810 00:52:58.170 --> 00:53:00.411 We're involved up front winning the ball. 811 00:53:00.551 --> 00:53:03.032 So, you know, you're moving around all the time. 812 00:53:03.393 --> 00:53:05.494 He's sitting there at fullback freezing his nuts off. 813 00:53:05.694 --> 00:53:06.714 We used to have for Otago. 814 00:53:06.754 --> 00:53:10.256 We'd have like the wetsuit material, but it'd be cut out like a singlet. 815 00:53:10.276 --> 00:53:13.297 So you'd put it under your shirt and that kept you warm. 816 00:53:13.317 --> 00:53:16.599 And it also helped if the people were rucking the shit out of you as well. 817 00:53:17.538 --> 00:53:18.759 Max, we'd better let you go. 818 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:21.682 We had a bit of that back in the day too, actually, Mark. 819 00:53:22.102 --> 00:53:22.762 I should imagine. 820 00:53:22.943 --> 00:53:24.564 Yeah, I had a vest. 821 00:53:25.365 --> 00:53:26.646 Oh, did you? 822 00:53:26.686 --> 00:53:30.289 Yeah, a three-mil vest. 823 00:53:30.549 --> 00:53:32.891 You must have started that trend. 824 00:53:33.612 --> 00:53:34.192 Not stupid. 825 00:53:34.312 --> 00:53:38.936 Well, yeah, no, I think that was something to do with Dunedin as well, if I recall. 826 00:53:40.477 --> 00:53:43.200 I think we had the main bloody cold place down there, you know. 827 00:53:43.740 --> 00:53:45.542 All right, Mackie, you've got one last question. 828 00:53:45.562 --> 00:53:45.922 What is it? 829 00:53:46.290 --> 00:53:47.230 No, I don't have any. 830 00:53:47.290 --> 00:53:49.612 I'm just stoked to have had mechs on. 831 00:53:50.932 --> 00:53:53.413 Bumped into them on several occasions. 832 00:53:53.433 --> 00:53:59.096 Would love to do so more in person, but I feel late again. 833 00:54:01.537 --> 00:54:02.237 Yeah, me too. 834 00:54:02.617 --> 00:54:06.119 That's what I say every morning when I go for a walk. 835 00:54:06.139 --> 00:54:09.200 You've got a glint in your eyes and you're a positive person. 836 00:54:09.220 --> 00:54:09.941 You see the best. 837 00:54:10.401 --> 00:54:11.641 What are your rules for life? 838 00:54:11.681 --> 00:54:12.782 That would be my last

question. 839 00:54:13.695 --> 00:54:16.276 My rules for life is to be… Or for a successful life of happiness. 840 00:54:16.316 --> 00:54:17.877 What do you think is the key? 841 00:54:17.897 --> 00:54:28.283 Yeah, well, that is to be happy with the people I'm living with, you know, to have a happy life and for them to be happy as well. 842 00:54:30.284 --> 00:54:30.744 Perfect. 843 00:54:30.884 --> 00:54:31.245 Simple. 844 00:54:31.925 --> 00:54:33.206 We don't want to complicate it. 845 00:54:33.939 --> 00:54:34.479 Drop the mic. 846 00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:35.920 All right, Max. 847 00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:37.441 Appreciate your time, mate. 848 00:54:37.501 --> 00:54:42.063 Always a pleasure to catch up and always keep those suitcases packed. 849 00:54:42.083 --> 00:54:42.623 See what happened? 850 00:54:42.643 --> 00:54:45.845 You go to your mate in South Africa, you didn't have your suitcases. 851 00:54:46.025 --> 00:54:48.186 So, you know, next time. 852 00:54:48.306 --> 00:54:49.887 I'm not sure that happened, though. 853 00:54:49.907 --> 00:54:50.367 I can't remember that. 854 00:54:50.387 --> 00:54:51.467 That absolutely happened. 855 00:54:51.507 --> 00:54:53.488 And I think you've broken your rule. 856 00:54:53.528 --> 00:54:58.311 You confirmed that happened by just saying you jumped on a plane from Brisbane to Perth to South Africa. 857 00:54:58.811 --> 00:54:59.151 Yeah. 858 00:54:59.411 --> 00:54:59.972 Simple as that. 859 00:55:00.152 --> 00:55:01.512 I think I had a plan. 860 00:55:03.273 --> 00:55:04.254 I think I had a plan. 861 00:55:04.314 --> 00:55:05.255 You've always got a plan. 862 00:55:06.196 --> 00:55:09.018 And do you know what happened that next day? 863 00:55:09.318 --> 00:55:09.598 No. 864 00:55:10.619 --> 00:55:12.801 I met the girl that I'm married to now. 865 00:55:13.682 --> 00:55:14.082 Oh, how brilliant. 866 00:55:14.102 --> 00:55:15.143 I knew that was going to happen. 867 00:55:15.203 --> 00:55:17.725 But I was just about to say, do you think we need to turn the mics off? 868 00:55:17.905 --> 00:55:20.748 But that is beautiful, mate. 869 00:55:20.788 --> 00:55:20.988 What? 870 00:55:21.408 --> 00:55:21.869 When? 871 00:55:22.089 --> 00:55:23.170 Which one are we talking about? 872 00:55:23.210 --> 00:55:24.411 That's the... 873 00:55:24.471 --> 00:55:26.573 I'm pretty sure that was Durban, right? 874 00:55:26.613 --> 00:55:26.953 Yeah. 875 00:55:27.854 --> 00:55:28.174 Yeah. 876 00:55:28.454 --> 00:55:30.576 And so what had happened 877 00:55:33.419 --> 00:55:38.382 I only did the first two tests, I think, in that series, I think. 878 00:55:39.163 --> 00:55:40.403 And I'm not quite sure. 879 00:55:41.024 --> 00:55:42.425 I can't quite remember why. 880 00:55:42.805 --> 00:55:44.286 And I had some time to myself. 881 00:55:44.366 --> 00:55:49.129 So what I had done is I'd gone to Durban earlier. 882 00:55:49.669 --> 00:55:50.209 Right. 883 00:55:50.229 --> 00:55:51.530 Because that's where I used to play. 884 00:55:51.610 --> 00:55:57.514 And I'd been surfing for about a week before, was it the third and fourth test? 885 00:55:57.554 --> 00:55:57.994 Is that right? 886 00:55:58.014 --> 00:55:59.415 Or the second and third, something like that? 887 00:55:59.435 --> 00:56:01.916 I can't remember if that sounds right, yeah. 888 00:56:02.256 --> 00:56:02.457 Yeah. 889 00:56:02.597 --> 00:56:03.017 And so I... 890 00:56:03.582 --> 00:56:10.768 I'd been surfing and I wanted to take off straight after the test match. 891 00:56:11.348 --> 00:56:12.109 And I did. 892 00:56:12.129 --> 00:56:13.610 And I flew to Johannesburg. 893 00:56:14.531 --> 00:56:20.696 And I think, I can't quite recall why, but when I was waiting for my bags, 894 00:56:21.470 --> 00:56:25.192 come off the carousel is when I met Mariska, actually. 895 00:56:25.792 --> 00:56:27.493 She was standing there waiting for bags as well. 896 00:56:28.254 --> 00:56:30.355 But she was flying from Cape Town to Joburg. 897 00:56:30.935 --> 00:56:36.599 But you know, in Johannesburg at the airport, the bags get messed up all the time and they're coming out at different numbers. 898 00:56:36.819 --> 00:56:39.260 You don't know where your bags are going to come out half the time. 899 00:56:39.660 --> 00:56:42.422 And maybe it doesn't come out these days sometimes. 900 00:56:42.922 --> 00:56:44.543 It was preordained. 901 00:56:44.783 --> 00:56:46.384 It was meant to come out at that time. 902 00:56:46.404 --> 00:56:48.785 It sounds like a Tom Hanks, Meg Ryan movie. 903 00:56:48.986 --> 00:56:49.166 Yeah. 904 00:56:49.886 --> 00:56:53.908 How about when we jumped in that car with the Amazon? 905 00:56:53.928 --> 00:56:54.668 Let's move on. 906 00:56:54.688 --> 00:56:55.268 Let's move on. 907 00:56:56.008 --> 00:56:56.348 Lories. 908 00:56:57.229 --> 00:56:57.829 Thanks, Meigs. 909 00:56:58.129 --> 00:56:59.309 We're going to stop Mark there. 910 00:56:59.329 --> 00:57:00.930 Appreciate your time. 911 00:57:01.290 --> 00:57:02.210 It's always a pleasure, brother. 912 00:57:02.230 --> 00:57:02.731 Cheers, Meigs. 913 00:57:03.011 --> 00:57:03.371 Thank you. 914 00:57:03.931 --> 00:57:04.911 Good to see you later on. 915 00:57:04.951 --> 00:57:05.532 Thank you very much. 916 00:57:05.552 --> 00:57:06.352 Nice talking to you both.