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WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome, fellow Marvel fans, to the
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Snark Industries podcast. I'm Jon. And I'm Remy.
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And we invite you to join us as we work our way
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through every Marvel TV show, movie, and crossover.
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Meaning if there's a Marvel character on screen,
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it's fair game. All categorized in the temporal
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order of their setting. By the time we're done,
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we'll have built a complete start-to-finish
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timeline of the entire Marvel Cinematic Universe.
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To accomplish this goal and to have a bit of
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fun along the way, each episode will be split
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into two parts, a Watch Party and a Deep Dive.
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If you're hearing this, you found one of our
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Deep Dives. This is where we slow things down
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and take a more pragmatic, in-depth look at
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a piece of Marvel media. We'll walk through the
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full plot, explore connections to the wider MCU
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and Marvel comics, highlight Easter eggs, unpack
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lore, and of course, give you our own personal
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thoughts and feelings. Although this episode
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stands on its own, it is designed to complement
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the Watch Party. So, if you haven't watched along
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with us yet, we highly recommend starting there
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first and coming back here for the full breakdown.
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Most importantly, we want to thank each and every
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one of you for joining us on this incredible
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journey. We're not affiliated with Marvel in
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any way, shape, or form. We're just fans who
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are passionate about these stories and these
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characters and wish to share them with everyone
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in a new and exciting way. So, sit back, relax,
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and enjoy this episode of Snark Industries. Hello,
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ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Deep
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Dive of Snark Industries. We just got through
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watching What If Hela Found the Ten Rings, which
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is season two, episode seven of the What If series.
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Jon, take it away with the synopsis. And just
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as we get into this, a reminder to everyone who's
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listening, in order of release, we do this because
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we are doing everything in temporal order of
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the MCU itself. Yes. It may seem like a weird
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jump to go from Wakanda to season two of What
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If. But there is a reason for it. And I think
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it's a good reason. Because when you have this
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all together, you can go down this in order of
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when things happen in the MCU in general, which
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we're kind of marrying together here. And they
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have done as well. So just a little side note.
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Yeah, which has been a ton of fun so far. Absolutely.
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Three episodes in. It feels good. Definitely.
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I think it fits and I don't feel whiplash at
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all from this. But anyway, so yeah, just a real
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quick breakdown of the episode for those who
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didn't join us for the Watch Party or for those
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that did. We have an episode where basically
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instead of Odin banishing Hela to hell as she
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was being a naughty child, he instead sent her
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to Midgard in this ancient Chinese setting. I
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believe, Remy, correct my math here, but you
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said around 700 CE or AD, depending on who you
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subscribe to. 667. Okay. So, yeah, roundabouts
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in there. So, you know, this ancient Chinese
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culture, and we immediately get a look at Ten
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Rings being there and where the namesake comes
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from. What If Hela Found the Ten Rings? And Hela,
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in a very parallel... scene and breakdown that
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happened in the first Thor movie, which we will
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get to eventually. But Odin strips of her power.
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He banishes her to Earth. He, you know, whispers
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into her helmet, whoever be worthy shall possess
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the power of Hela, and tosses it back in the
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hole as well. And, you know, we have a very real
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parallel here of her trying to find her way. She
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gets here and immediately, kind of, you know, being
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Hela, wants to take over. Tries to fight everyone,
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realizes ultimately that without her powers,
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she is not useless, but certainly not useful
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Load full transcript
in the sense of the greater scheme of things.
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And we have her sort of having this growth journey
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as she meets different people, not only there
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within the area itself, Ta Lo, which is where
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she's at and where she kind of meets, which is...
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referenced in the Shang-Chi movie as well. A
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lot of pull-ins from different areas here, but
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learns a little bit about herself, a little bit
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about, ultimately, what she says is peace. And
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it turns out that in doing so, and going to this
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sort of mystical safe haven of Ta Lo, Heimdall
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loses sight of her, takes this to Odin, who sees
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the Ten Rings and everything that's happened
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as a sort of threat to all of the Nine Realms,
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and brings an army down to take them. And ultimately,
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her and Odin clash at the end, and she rises
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victorious, sort of ascending into this white
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version of herself. You know, her clothes change
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and everything else. I believe we've made some
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Gandalf references there in the Watch Party.
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Oh, absolutely. But, you know, she has all these
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things and sort of ascends to this new level,
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takes over effectively the throne, sort of merges,
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it seems, long term, Asgard and Ta Lo together
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and her and everyone else sort of go and protect
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the cosmos in that sense. And they even show
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a scene where she shows up riding Fenris Wolf
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and everyone else is there with her as well,
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going and stopping Thanos as he's there on the
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planet with child Gamora, giving her the perfectly
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balanced dagger that has been the... focus of
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a lot of memes since then. But ultimately, yeah,
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that's kind of where it comes to an end,
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is, you know, what if she finds the Ten Rings, and
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ultimately, the Ten Rings, she finds a person who's
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yeah, still attached. Yeah, still attached. You
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know, which honestly, and I hadn't seen this episode
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before here, but wasn't what I expected going
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in. I, you know, I thought that she was going to
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use and command the Ten Rings, but instead she
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did not. But yeah, so that's the kind of breakdown
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of the What If Hela Found the Ten Rings episode.
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And now I think we're going to move on to our
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sort of tie-ins section. In the MCU in general,
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like I said, there's a lot of parallels drawn
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in. Obviously, the What Ifs only tie in loosely
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to the MCU in general because they don't really
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happen. They're all sort of by design of what
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if this happened, but it didn't. But still, we
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can see tie-ins and we can see how everything
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kind of comes together. And as I mentioned in
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the synopsis, you know, we have the parallels
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between this episode and the first Thor movie
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where, you know, it's this rebellious child that
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needs to learn ultimately her true place in the
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universe kind of thing. We see not only the parallels
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of her being cast to Earth, we see the parallels
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of she wields Mjolnir in this episode, which I
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thought was kind of a strange choice, but it
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is there. And then Odin destroys Mjolnir there
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in the same exact way that she destroyed Mjolnir
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when Thor threw it at her. She threw it at Odin.
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Yeah, that kind of happened. I did have curiosities
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that because we do not know when Mjolnir was
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crafted. Do we have a date on that? Because
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it would make sense for her to wield that prior
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to Thor's birth. Yeah, it's certainly possible.
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I mean, you know, I suppose like a lot of things
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when you get to something like this,
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it'll depend on the writer and the run in the
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comic series of when it was actually done. I've
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always kind of assumed that it was sort of crafted
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for Thor specifically. Yeah, me too. But, you
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know, maybe they were going a different direction
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here. Not a problem if they were. Of course,
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it's What If. Yeah, not even just What If, but
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if you zoom out on the scope of all of these
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comic books, stories, movies, TV
shows, and everything
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else, there are differences and continuity issues
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abounds because there are different writers,
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different runs, different arcs that they take.
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So to me, that's not super problematic as long
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as we understand that there are, you know, ultimately
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a lot of different universe designations and
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a lot of different story arcs within the same
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universes that maybe don't, one begets the other
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sort of thing. Yeah. And speaking of universe
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designations, while we're passing by it, this
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one is currently designated as Earth-TRN1092,
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in case you were curious. How about that? Carry
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on. Get that tattooed somewhere. Yeah, there
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you go. So we see these parallels. And then,
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of course, we have the parallels. Once she gets
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to Earth between this and between Shang-Chi,
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we see a lot of the same locations. And everything
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else. We see the Ten Rings. We see the... The
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critter without a face? The critter without a
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face, yeah. They got a lot of mileage on those
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jokes. Yeah, whichever one you want to call it.
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The luck dragon. We see all of these things
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sort of tied in. So I believe the tie-ins are
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there are just sort of homage to other things
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that are happening. Obviously, it intentionally
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set itself with its own universe designation
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here so that it could exist outside of the...
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constraints of the Sacred Timeline, but ultimately
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we knew that because this is a What If episode,
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and it's not... doesn't have any real bearing outside
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of just entertainment. And so we'll get
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to that portion in a minute, but first,
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Remy, let's go through how these tie
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into comic book roots. Yeah, so what I picked
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up on was, of course, Hela. We're to start there.
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Her first appearance was in Journey into Mystery
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number 102 in 1964. So that is Hela's intro and
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the flame blades powers that was introduced in
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Jason Aaron's era, which was 2012
to 2014. So
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we got to see a little bit of that. And then,
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of course, we have the Ten Rings, which has been
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modified by the MCU to where Xu Wenwu is in command
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of them. So the Ten Rings, of course, as we know,
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is originally attributed to the Mandarin. That
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is a bit of a problematic character these days.
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So when the MCU introduced the Ten Rings, of
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course, they side skirted it in Iron Man, and
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then they gave the official designation to this
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character. So that's kind of the roundabout
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connection to the comics that we have. Those
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are the only three that I really found. Of course,
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we've got Fenrir and all that jazz. But
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those are the three stories that I really
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found solid ground for. Yeah, I mean, you know,
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and interesting, definitely to see always how
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these things evolve over time. Yeah, absolutely.
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Hela for being first introduced 60 years ago
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before either of our times and everything else.
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It's definitely pretty cool. And you did say
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something. I kind of actually want to touch on
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this a little bit. I'm sure we'll do more of
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a deep dive on this when we get to it in Iron
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Man 3 and in Shang-Chi. Brace yourself. We're
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going to get there, Remy, and you're going to
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have to enjoy it. I'll watch it. Yeah, yeah.
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But the idea of the Mandarin, you touched on
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it. I definitely just want to talk about that
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just for a second here as this was tied in here
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because the Ten Rings, obviously, for anyone
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who's... been around for a long time and really
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knows these stories... Yeah. Were definitely changed
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significantly. Not even just taking them from
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the Mandarin, who agreed, problematic character,
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a bit of a caricature. Definitely a little heavy
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on the racism, I believe, in today's climate.
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A little bit. And they just sort of did a lot
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of major changes, not only to the character itself,
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which we have with the Ben Kingsley
rendition
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later on, but also the rings of power themselves
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are quite a bit different than before. They were
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kind of actually legitimate rings. And now they're
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to go back to our episode one talks, bangles.
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So it's definitely interesting.
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I think it's probably overall a good change.
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I wish some things had been done differently,
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especially for such a big, prominent character
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as the Mandarin. But I understand why you would
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want to distance yourself from such things. Yeah.
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So that's all I wanted to really say about
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that, unless you have something to add. No. And
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to the MCU's credit, because the Mandarin is
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such a problematic character and very heavily
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rooted in caricature and racism and all that
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jazz. I'm not mad that they softened
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it. I don't love the way they approached it.
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However, I don't know if you've seen Wonder Man
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yet, but they did expand upon Trevor's character
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and they kind of made it a little bit more acceptable.
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They probably should have done it earlier because
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I've hated Iron Man 3 for a decade or more at
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this point. I've got a few reasons to dislike
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that movie, but we'll get there when we get there.
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Oh, for sure. Yeah, we certainly will. But nevertheless,
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I do like that they did give him a bit more stability
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in the MCU as a whole in both Shang-Chi and
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now Wonder Man. So it's a little bit more acceptable
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as time goes on. But the jarring change that
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they forced back when Iron Man 3 came out
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was really difficult to deal with. I did not
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love it at all. But moving on from that, this
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is normally where we would talk about Easter
00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:31.299
eggs. But with a What If episode, I mean, it's
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just... it's always an homage to a story. Exactly.
00:13:34.340 --> 00:13:37.879
It is an Easter egg. So we're obviously not going
00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:40.419
to go through all that. But let's go with
00:13:40.419 --> 00:13:43.059
your thoughts. How do you like it? I will quickly
00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:45.980
touch before we get to that. There was one thing
00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:48.980
that I did want to mention that I don't think
00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:52.980
is canon, and you can correct me if I'm misremembering
00:13:52.980 --> 00:13:58.899
or just flat out wrong. But when Hela says, my
00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:04.139
dad's new girlfriend, Frigga. Yeah. Which definitely
00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:05.860
implies, I mean, you wouldn't talk about your
00:14:05.860 --> 00:14:09.700
own mother that way, implies that from this perspective.
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:14.320
Thor is only Hela's half brother. Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:14.379 --> 00:14:16.840
Which is an interesting, interesting change.
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.399
And I actually don't know if it's a change. I'm
00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:21.440
with you. I'm not entirely sure if that's a canon
00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.080
change or not. I've always understood that they
00:14:23.080 --> 00:14:26.740
were actually legitimately siblings. But like
00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:28.899
I said, there's so many stories. There's so many
00:14:28.899 --> 00:14:31.639
arcs. Yeah. You know, this could have been touched
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:33.620
on before or this could be something new here.
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:35.860
Let us know in the comments, you know, kind of
00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:38.559
thing. Like, if we're totally off base here,
00:14:38.679 --> 00:14:40.399
but I thought it was interesting nevertheless.
00:14:40.759 --> 00:14:43.039
So, all right. Yeah. A hundred percent agree.
00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:45.139
Moving on. Do we like it? Do we not like it?
00:14:45.159 --> 00:14:46.399
Now I'm going to be a little bit jaded going
00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:49.700
into this, and I'll say it here, as this is
00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:51.740
the first one. And we have three seasons of this
00:14:51.740 --> 00:14:54.559
to go through. I do not like the What If series.
00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:57.379
And it's not because I think that they're poorly
00:14:57.379 --> 00:15:00.940
made. It's not because that I, you know, think
00:15:00.940 --> 00:15:02.120
that there are stories that don't need to be
00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:05.059
told. I don't like things that don't have stakes.
00:15:05.259 --> 00:15:07.679
I don't like things that story, you know, where
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:10.320
stories don't mean anything. And that's what
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:12.899
these ultimately at the end of the day are. They're
00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:14.779
interesting stories, but they exist outside of
00:15:14.779 --> 00:15:17.899
the canon, so to speak. They don't add anything
00:15:17.899 --> 00:15:24.299
to the overall plot line. They're just little
00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:28.200
fun snippets. And I can appreciate that something
00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.220
is well done. And I think this episode specifically
00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:35.450
was well done. I don't like it for those reasons,
00:15:35.649 --> 00:15:39.629
you know, and, you know, to get into the little
00:15:39.629
--> 00:15:43.090
details, you know, having Hela
00:15:43.090 --> 00:15:45.970
wield Mjolnir, whether or not that was something
00:15:45.970 --> 00:15:47.690
that happened before. I didn't particularly like
00:15:47.690 --> 00:15:50.470
it. Having her sort of being able to take Gungnir
00:15:50.470 --> 00:15:53.250
from Odin and then somehow just wield
00:15:53.250 --> 00:15:57.250
his power. Yeah. Strange, you know, very, very
00:15:57.250 --> 00:16:02.070
strange kind of thing. So, an interesting story.
00:16:02.350 --> 00:16:04.929
Cool to see her sort of rise above being a villain
00:16:04.929 --> 00:16:08.230
and be ultimately a hero of sorts in this case,
00:16:08.309 --> 00:16:10.230
though there definitely seem to be some touches
00:16:10.230 --> 00:16:12.429
of imperialism and stuff like that at the end,
00:16:12.450 --> 00:16:15.830
which I don't know. We built a cosmic empire
00:16:15.830 --> 00:16:17.289
and then we're taking care of everybody. That
00:16:17.289 --> 00:16:21.710
doesn't sound like every dictator. For the greater
00:16:21.710 --> 00:16:25.049
good, damn it. Yeah, right. Yeah. So interesting
00:16:25.049 --> 00:16:27.730
to see that. Like I said, I mean, it was a fun
00:16:27.730 --> 00:16:30.320
story, but ultimately one that I personally
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.840
don't like. And now for an entirely different
00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.960
take. Well, we were talking before we watched
00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:41.559
this episode, how in the last episode we spoke
00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:43.679
about how Jon doesn't like the no-stakes stories
00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:46.679
and inserting characters in stories that already
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:49.120
exist for no reason. I'm on the exact opposite
00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:51.720
end. You never had any What If comics. I had
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.679
a whole stack of them. I loved them. I thought
00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.500
they were fascinating. So when this show came
00:16:56.500 --> 00:16:59.129
around, I was all excited. Some of the episodes
00:16:59.129 --> 00:17:01.309
do not hit there. There are some big piles of
00:17:01.309 --> 00:17:03.850
junk in there, but there are episodes like this
00:17:03.850 --> 00:17:06.890
that really stand out as well-told stories. And
00:17:06.890 --> 00:17:10.509
I love the opportunity to see what a character
00:17:10.509 --> 00:17:13.470
could have been, what a small twist in the story
00:17:13.470 --> 00:17:16.769
can do to the overall outcome of the universe
00:17:16.769 --> 00:17:18.670
when it comes to this kind of stuff. So I've
00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:21.609
always really enjoyed the What If stories, like
00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:24.069
I had one that was, what if the War Machine had
00:17:24.410 --> 00:17:26.930
never defeated the Living Laser. And it was the
00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:30.210
weirdest, most bizarre story, but I found it
00:17:30.210 --> 00:17:32.769
fascinating. It's like, this is the
00:17:32.769 --> 00:17:34.390
kind of stuff I love about Marvel is because
00:17:34.390 --> 00:17:37.529
they can take these very simple concepts and
00:17:37.529 --> 00:17:40.190
just change one little detail and just, here's
00:17:40.190 --> 00:17:41.690
a whole different universe. You're never going
00:17:41.690 --> 00:17:44.190
to hear the full story for, but here's just one
00:17:44.190 --> 00:17:46.410
little drop on the bucket. And I just, I find
00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:48.859
that so much fun. So, that's what I thought of
00:17:48.859 --> 00:17:50.960
it. I thought this episode was absolutely fantastic.
00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:54.160
One of the better What If episodes, in my opinion.
00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.500
There you go. Hot takes for both of us. Maybe,
00:17:57.579 --> 00:18:02.099
maybe not hot takes, but good breakdown as always.
00:18:02.539 --> 00:18:05.319
And to everyone listening, we appreciate you
00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:07.880
as always. Yes, we do. I'm Jon. That's Remy.
00:18:08.380 --> 00:18:10.000
Thank you for listening to Snark Industries,
00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:12.119
and we'll see you on the next one. Take care.
00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:17.650
Thank you for joining us in this episode of the
00:18:17.650 --> 00:18:19.869
Snark Industries podcast. To join the conversation
00:18:19.869 --> 00:18:22.230
and further explore the Marvel Cinematic Universe
00:18:22.230 --> 00:18:24.869
with us, head on over to snarkindustriespod
00:18:24.869 --> 00:18:27.849
.com. The link will be in the show notes, but
00:18:27.849 --> 00:18:29.730
with that, we will see you in the next adventure.
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.299
Bam, bam, bam.