บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ #19: Animals, Eyebrows & Laughing Incorrectly

road at the at the venue just down the road, about two years ago. It came to the day of it. And we just said, Do you can you be asked? It was like, No. Well fuck it then. We'd spent the money on the tickets and I just couldn't bothered to go. I I love cancelling plans. It's one of my favourite things to do. Sarah: See I love cancelling certain plans but like things I've been looking forward to I just can't even if like I just don't feel If I just don't feel well like so I took Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: like an acute one of my acute migraine meds and it had settled quite a lot because I took like I had the migraine in the morning and so I was just like a bit heady here but then when I got there there was so many things that went wrong And know when you just like, fuck this. Like I wish Trevor Holland: So Sarah: I hadn't gone. Trevor Holland: talk to us about this shitty theatre you went to then. Sarah: of things that went wrong like a fucking list I'm gonna read off the list because Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: I'll forget and I'm not forgetting any of them okay so Trevor Holland: Go on. Sarah: I've got a pen there was no drop so I'm a wheelchair user as I am so when we got there There was no drop... the car park was right, was like here to the theatre, super close. There was no drop curb from the car park to the venue. So I physically couldn't get my wheelchair from the car park into the venue. There was nothing. So they Trevor Holland: Good start. Sarah: had to go and get me a ramp. And they were like making a fuss about getting a ramp. They said, there's other wheelchair users got in here. So I don't know how you can't. And then one of the other guys went, or they weren't power chairs. So they were manual wheelchairs that could bump up the curb. I can't Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: do that. Then when I was getting into the venue, they needed another ramp and they put the ramp on sideways. So half of the ramp wasn't even on the into the venue. And if I'd have gone on that one, my wheelchair would have fallen off. Dangerous as fuck. Then they put the ramp upside down. when they put it on the actual place and stood, one of the guys stood on the other side and so when I went up it, it jolted and my hip for the rest of the evening was absolutely fucking killing me. Hate using ramps anyway because they're like, they're just the devil. When we got in there, looked at the tickets, someone was in me seat. So I called someone over and I was like, excuse me, there's someone in my seat. And he went, not again. We've had double bookings and triple bookings. And I was like, Trevor Holland: Fuck's sake. Sarah: what? And he was like, yeah, this happens all the time here. like cool. So they went and moved a wheelchair user to in front of us. Just got a random chair and they moved the companion that was with the wheelchair user in front of us. Then we're going into the sensory overload. It smelled disgusting in there. It like smelled of like must, like it had

been freshly painted with like gloss or something. It was, I was sitting there like this. It was Trevor Holland: Mm-hmm. Sarah: vile, like, and it wasn't like... It was like so overwhelming, my boyfriend told me it was as well, and he was like... It was horrible, it was so bad. This is one of my issues, this is my own issue. There was a woman behind me that was like cackling so loud, but she was like laughing at things that weren't funny. You know when the comedians like not tell them like a that funny... shit. When they're telling a joke, can you still hear me? Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: When they're telling like an in-between joke. She's like, ahhhh love, fuck and settle down. Settle the fuck down. Then there was another woman behind her that was repeating what the comedian was saying. Every time he says something she'd say it. And I'm like, if I wanted a parrot I'd have brought me own. I haven't finished. Then, this was my favourite bit. When the event finished, instead of getting me a ramp to leave, they made me wait until a thousand people had left the venue to let me leave. So I was like shh shh shh. I left straight away because I wanted to fucking leave that place. And they made me wait. Sitting. at the door until everybody left until I could leave. Trevor Holland: Did they tell you why they were doing that? Sarah: because I to get a rump. Trevor Holland: W how how what a way to make you feel like the least important person in the room? Sarah: yeah it wasn't like can you sh- i mean they could have just put people to the side because there was three doors and they could have just moved like move people to the side of a door and then Trevor Holland: You th th you're you you were literally you were literally an afterthought to them. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when we were in the car park, someone parked right behind the back of my wheelchair accessible vehicle. So I had to wait at the sides of my car to get me ramped down. And I couldn't get me, because I couldn't get me ramped down because they were parking to get out of the car park. And so I was just sat there waiting for them because they wouldn't move. I was just sat there like. I suppose I'll just wait here then. So I waiting there for about 10-15 minutes for them to fucking move. Trevor Holland: I mean, I've d I've never I've never had to experience anything like that because, you know, w I I don't have a physical disability and w the disabilities I do have are invisible, so you know, p I can get away with a lot of stuff. But I mean to feel like you are just inconveniencing people, right? Like you're just a pain in the arse. I mean, how how the fuck is that supposed to make you feel when when they just either they can't be asked to to help or they they make a big fucking deal out of it or they like no you can w the quicker solution here isn't to let you leave, it's to make a thousand people go before you. Because that will take you ages. But you're not as important. So we'll let you Sarah: No. Trevor Holland: just fucking sit there. What a bunch of cunts. How was the show though? Sarah: The show was really good. show was really good. He was great. was Jean-Marco Seraizi. And he was fantastic. And Adam Rowe was on before him. He's a Scouts comedian. He was boss. And yeah, it was great. But like, was just, it was just so overwhelming. And I was just like... maybe we should just leave and my son was just like you know we can go and I was like what I want to stay and I was overwhelmed and frustrated and but the FOMO was kicking in so much and yeah like this is one of the things that really pisses me off about myself because I know I should leave a place when I don't feel comfortable and I'm feeling overwhelmed but then I'm just like, you've wanted to be here for a year. And all of these things have happened. But it's just... Trevor Holland: Do you think if do you ever wonder like w how much of an impact some of those issues would be if they were just in isolation? So let's say you you you got there and everything was set up perfectly for you to be able to get into the venue and get to your seat so there's no one sitting in there, you know, in terms of accessibility, all of that stuff was great and it didn't smell weird. Do you think that cackling bint behind you would have annoyed you as much? Sarah: think she would have annoyed me though. She was so annoying. Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: You think still even yeah? You don't think it it's it's worse because of everything else as well. Sarah: should have heard her drive, she was so annoying. She was annoying, Zan. She was so loud. Trevor Holland: So was it pissing him off as well? Sarah: Yeah, because it was not even that funny when she was like... Trevor Holland: Yeah, it's it's it's difficult because I I person that would piss me off as well, because once you notice it you can't you can't you you can't relax 'cause it's like Chinese water torture, right? You think that w you Sarah: Yeah. No. Yeah. Trevor Holland: you're gonna get hit by it again any second, so you can't immerse Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: yourself in the actual experience of the show. I personally love the sound of people laughing. in the right situation, people Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: people laughing completely uninhibited is one of the most beautiful sounds to me. But when it's someone who's just doing it wrong Sarah: Yes. Trevor Holland: when you're doing it wrong that fucking hell, do it at the right time Sarah: Yeah? Trevor Holland: and don't make a stupid sound when you do it and it's fine. God, what a nightmare. Sarah: Yeah, it's done now. Trevor Holland: Do you think it was worth it do you still think it was worth it though? Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: You're not you s you're not sure. 'Cause that's the p that's the balance, isn't it? 'Cause you the FOMO. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: It was a good show, but you felt like shit. It's like on balance. Sarah: Yeah. And when I was driving,

because my boyfriend doesn't drive, I was driving home then and I was just like, I just want to get home now. I just want to get home, get to bed, ugh. Ugh. Trevor Holland: So it's not exactly like an an e an evening full of wonderful memories for you, is it? Even it's not like Sarah: No, no. Trevor Holland: So yeah, maybe it wasn't worth it, maybe you just fuck it off. Sarah: yeah and then a few months ago I wasn't feeling well and I went to see Rocky Horror and I went to different theatre, I went to my favourite theatre and they're always great with access and as soon as I got in there I was just not feeling good like I was feeling shit and about five minutes into the show I just said to Zan I was like I feel like death and he was like do you want to leave? I was like give it five minutes and then I was just like we need to go I was like we need to leave but I've seen that show a hundred times so it was like Trevor Holland: Mm. Sarah: I've seen it before so It didn't matter. Do know what mean? But this was a show I'd never seen, so I had to stay. Trevor Holland: And you've been waiting ages to go as well. Sarah: yeah and he wanted it like he loves Sean Marco and it was someone else it was like I needed to stay because he wanted to see him as well because I felt like I'd be letting Zan down he wouldn't have cared because he's more interested in my well-being but still it's in the back of my head that I don't want to let him down because he loves him he watches him on YouTube and he watches him on TikTok and you know what mean but still in my head it's like I can't I can't I can't can't go home in case he gets upset. he would know but it's still in my head that that will be a thing. Trevor Holland: I mean, it means you're a good person who cares about other people. Yeah, that's that's a good Sarah: BLEH Trevor Holland: w that's a good way. Yeah, but it's good. It's a good way to be. That's a really good way Sarah: Yeah, I guess. Trevor Holland: to be. But but one thing that that I've been trying to learn recently, because inhe inherently I'm absolutely not a selfish person. Inherently, I'm yeah, may you know, I I I think about others and I'm always wanting others to be happy and and I I don't want to ever let anyone down or anything like that. But I'm having to learn now to strike the balance between being good and generous and kind, but also caring about my myself Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: as well. And not putting myself first necessarily, but not putting myself last all the time. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: because I w I still want to be good and I still want to be kind and nice and generous, but I also need the world to know that sometimes You need to fuck off. And sometimes I just need to not do that thing. Sometimes I just I am gonna not text you back sometimes. Something that a guest was talking to us about recently. Sometimes you just won't text someone back. And you have to kind of be alright with that. But also I'm never gonna

be alright with that. I'm always gonna feel bad about it. I'm always gonna be like, Sarah: Yeah, same. Yeah. Trevor Holland: actually Just because I'm predisposed to to be someone who isn't very good at texting back, it doesn't mean that you just have to accept that. Because that's that still means that in the in the confines of what makes a good friend, it means I'm not being a very good friend. So I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: st I do feel bad about it because Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'm I am not living up to what you would like me to be. So, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you know, there is a balance in that there, but yeah, but I I am learning to be a little bit less apologetic but it's really hard for me because I just don't Sarah: Yeah, it is for me as well, Trevor Holland: ever want it to offend or upset or even even even slightly disappoint somebody. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I'm the same. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, I am. Because I also get it when my friends don't text me back. I'm like, what have I done? Trevor Holland: I get it when people text me back when they 'cause, you know, you you and I text each other all the time. I whoever you are, whether you're my boss, my my nephew, my sister, my wife, whoever you are, and whatever you know, whatever gender identity you have, I will put a kiss on the end of that text. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: Doesn't matter who you are. if s people have been texting back and forth for a while and it's Sometimes it's more than one, sometimes it's two kisses, sometimes it's even three. Depends if I'm feeling really loving that day. If you've been let's say you and I had been water slapping each other maybe twenty times in a day, and that whole day it had been two kisses and two kisses, right? And then suddenly I get one back from you that's only got one. I'd be like, Why the fuck do you hate me now? Sarah: I Trevor Holland: Why am I only getting one now? And Sarah: Are you reading to it that much? Hehehehehe Trevor Holland: And I'd be like, what the fuck? Why is there only one? I'm like, well that's it. End of partnership. Fucking cancel the podcast. Fuck it all. I only got one t I only got one kiss. And I and I'll be and I think, do I confront her about this? Do I say, Are you okay? Have I done something? Does that make me sound like a desperate piece of shit? Does that make me sound Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: weird? But I'm like, I really need to know what what it is that I've done to irreparably affect our our friendship. And it really bothered me for ages. Sarah: Really? Trevor Holland: don't you dare you've done a couple where there's no kiss at all and that's Sarah: Sometimes I just forget. Trevor Holland: Yeah, no, but I don't mind because because when it's it's different when when you're in contact with other neurodivergent people because all of those rules go out the window. I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I don't read into stuff when I'm speaking to neurodivergent people because there's no point. Because Sarah: Mm. Trevor Holland: you know, like the other day when we weren't recording, but I was talking to you and you said shut up, I'm not listening to you, I'm writing something. if that was anyone neurotypical you that what the fuck fuck you Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: how dare you that's a really rude thing to do but it's like the rules are completely different when you're speaking to a neurodivergent Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: person and it's like you know what I was actually happy when you said that I was like that's great because I know exactly where I stand you're being completely honest I'm not listening to you there's no point in wasting your breath saying the thing that you're saying because you're gonna have to say it again. You've saved me the time and effort of having to say it again. You've done me Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: a favour. Sarah: Yeah, because I knew that I wasn't listening and I was going to forget what I was writing and I needed to write down I was writing because I was going to forget what I was writing. Trevor Holland: Yeah. But I like as I think as w I'm sure it was. But that's just what I lo that's what I love so much about Sarah: and was very important. Trevor Holland: about hanging out with neurod neurodivert no neurodivergent people. It's just it's just Sarah: Got there in the end. Trevor Holland: it's just the it's just the rules don't apply. Sarah: Yeah, I know. Trevor Holland: Those rules that we've convinced ourselves are are vital at all times to follow. Sarah: Mm, I know. Trevor Holland: We don't need to anymore. It's like Sarah: No. Trevor Holland: It's the most liberating experience. It's fucking beautiful. Sarah: Yeah, man. Trevor Holland: Yeah. So yeah. I saw a cat get run over. I know, I talked to you about it a little bit, but I wanna talk Sarah: I know. Trevor Holland: to you about I wanted to talk to you about it through the lens of how I handle emotional situations in the moment because Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: this is like three days ago. I didn't actually see a cat get run over, I saw a cat who had just got run over. And I s and it took me a while to work out what I was seeing. Sarah: Yeah. huh. Trevor Holland: 'Cause it was quite far ahead of me. But eventually I worked out I was with Sarah and and this woman had a blanket and then put the cat inside a blanket, wrapped it up and then started carrying it carrying it away and she was in tears. And I couldn't tell whether she had run the cat over and she was really sad about it, or someone else had run the cat over and contacted her and she'd come to collect the cat. And I couldn't tell whether the cat was still alive. But you know, y you know it's gonna hurt your heart to look at the thing but you feel like you need to look at it because you need to confront it. I I I looked as she was carrying this cat and I saw his little face and he I saw his little head and his little face. And then I looked

into the road and I saw this fucking massive patch of blood in the street in the road. And Sarah and I were just absolutely stunned by it. And I was walking down the street for the next ten minutes and I kept making these noises like because it kept coming over me in waves. Like this horrible, like massively like painful, grieving, horrible, just disgusting feeling I couldn't quite I couldn't quite understand or or articulate properly, but it was making me actually go and I was like wringing my hands and I was like I was stimming like fuck and I was like And I was I had a clarity of mind enough at n in that moment to say, if I ever question whether I'm autistic, I need to remember I need to remember this moment Sarah: So yeah. Trevor Holland: because I just do not know how to process these feelings I'm having and I don't really understand these feelings I'm having, but they're so intense that I wanna just kind of lobotomise myself. It's like the most horrible shit and it keeps coming back and I keep seeing it in my head. I keep Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: getting so sad. I'm just so Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: desperately sad. It makes me just want every animal in the world to live forever. And I know you've been through some stuff in the last few days and I didn't want to talk about it too much because of that. But it was such a strong reaction. I wanted to talk about that. But now I'm talking about dead animals and now I've I've ruined everything. Sarah: okay because when you're saying you keep seeing it that's what I keep I keep seeing it so we'll talk about it so sadly my brother we had to say goodbye to my brother's German Shepherd last week he was almost 14 and he was the fucking best dog in the whole entire world like he was his name is Titan I'm gonna some Wow. German Chappards are known for being like big aggressive like police dogs right? He just he was he was a Titan he was fucking massive my brother used to get stopped in the street for people to like say hello to him because he looked like a fucking lion he was massive and but he was the most gentle softest he like he was ridiculous He was a big massive bear, he was a baby and everybody loved him. Like the amount of messages, my brother runs a dog walk and pet sitting agent business and so he knows so many people and the amount of messages of support and everything that my brother's had has been so overwhelming. So yeah, we had to say goodbye to him last week and... We did it at home, we had vets come out to the house and it was the, I mean, not the nicest way, but I they didn't want to do it at a vet, you know, a vet, what are they called? Hospital, whatever they are, practice. Trevor Holland: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah: and so they did it at home, he had chicken nuggets and they did it in his bed and I was there, my parents, brother and his missus and his missus sister and yeah, it was heartbreaking, I'm still broken hearted but he was just very special to the whole family and

will be very, very missed and I can keep seeing them in my head. Yeah. Hi Sam. for you. Trevor Holland: He needs a shit, he needs a shit, that's why he's doing that. Sarah: course. Trevor Holland: I I know that because whenever I need a shit I run around the house going rah rah anyway, I'm sorry. I wanted to bring some bring some light in I 'cause I'm f I'm feeling the things that Sarah: No, it's fine. Yeah, that's what I do. Yeah. It's all good. I make a joke of everything. Trevor Holland: Was he was he sick? Sarah: Yeah, I mean, he's... But the thing is, he's been through so much. Like, he had bloat and my brother knew he had bloat a few years ago. And my brother knew that and caught it. And so we had an operation and they saved him from that. Because his previous dog, Shadow, had bloat and he didn't survive it. But my brother caught... Trevor Holland: I don't know what blue it is. Sarah: So big dogs get... I don't really fucking know what it is either. But it's like an intest... stomach thing and like either the stomach or their intestines or something they wrap and it's a big dog. I don't want to say it because I don't want to get it wrong. Trevor Holland: Yeah, okay. Sarah: and so yeah his other dog passed from that and my brother caught it with Ty a few years ago he also ruptured his ACL a few years ago so he's got like pins and stuff in his hips and that but then he had bone cancer and yeah he just got really poorly Trevor Holland: And it's just L let's let's ch let let's just Sarah: But he was such a babe. Trevor Holland: let's just sit in this. I don't I don't I don't care if it's i if it's dead air where we just go quiet because we're th we're thinking. Because I I wanna sit Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I wanna sit in this because it's important because it's so I don't know if you know this about me and but you you know what I'm like and you know that I'm I wear my heart on my sleeve. I I'm not one of these I'm not one of these men who Sarah: No, I know. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Although I don't think he'd hang out with other if I was. Sarah: I I know, but like, you know what animals are like, because like, we're such, like, my whole family are like very, we're all obsessed with animals, we've always had dogs and, but Ty has been just, he's been everything to all of us. My dad's got socks with Ty on. He's just, he's been everything to us. And then we've got my little, my little fluffy, well he's not fluffy anymore, he's had a groom, but my little fluffy one. But yeah. Trevor Holland: It's Sarah: They're very precious. Trevor Holland: I've got a I've got a difficult I've got a difficult relationship with my own emotions and you know, I I I do wear my heart on my sleeve, but I I find it very difficult to to cry. Sarah: Mm-hmm. Trevor Holland: not because I have any kind of feelings of embarrassment about it. I don't have I don't carry any of that. But it takes Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: a lot of accumulation of of sadness for me to finally

cry. It's like I s there there th there are loads of times when I want to. I actually want Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: to cry because I just I just want to I wanna get the catharsis of it. I wanna just I want to release the feelings that I'm having. I want to but but it just isn't there. And I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: g and I it actually disappoints me. But then over time and time and time and time, basically once every eighteen months to two years, something will happen that just opens the floodgates and I will cry for about an hour. But that y y Sarah: Really? Trevor Holland: y you know that really snotty Sarah: Yeah, yeah, Hysterical, yeah, Trevor Holland: loud sobbing crying. Sarah: yeah. Trevor Holland: Properly hysterical crying and I'll do that and I feel fucking excellent afterwards. So Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I get it all out in one go every couple of years. but the so you know, I can feel something there when I'm thinking Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: about animals right now that's there, but it's just not close. But Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but it's just The most overwhelming amount of love that I feel for every single animal in the world. Every Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: single one. Even the idea of one. So it's not I'm Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I'm I might even be imagining an animal. And I love that animal. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: I you know, I I walked into a tree the other day because I was just looking at this pigeon who was just Sarah: Kitchen. Trevor Holland: so beautiful. He was just sitting there he was speckled, so he was dark but he had all the white all these white patches. He looked like he had vitiligo basing. Yeah, he looked he looked absolutely gorgeous. And I was just Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: like, mate, you're just beautiful. And then a fucking tree was there. I see every time I see a cat, I'm I I say hello to the cat and I'll sometimes pet the cat if the cat wants to be pet. If they don't want to be pet, I'm just like, you know, don't worry about it. Have a lovely day and I'll t I'll just say, Have a great day. We go to the Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: park, we go to the park. Sarah and I go to the park every weekend as part of our kind of getting out and having a a long walk. We'll go to the park and we'll We we we buy special wildfowl food that we take to the park. We feed the the geese and the swans and and the ducks and we just like we're surrounded by these honking fucking birds who stink and do this really Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: weird liquid shit and they and and they honk, they look a little bit like puppies, but they're not because they and it's like you're I love every single one of you. And every time Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I every time I'm walking down the street and I see a pigeon that's died or you know you just see sometimes you see a pile of feathers and you're like man some shit's gone down here Sarah: Yeah, I know. Trevor Holland: every single

time I see anything like that it absolutely hurts my heart Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: and even the idea of an animal being upset not not hurt physically or killed but just someone being not very nice to an animal just an just a Sarah: No, I know what you Sad. Yes. Trevor Holland: dog being sad Which then really causes a problem for me because we've talked Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: about my my temper before and as much as I hate doing it, I will shout at the cat. The thing is he doesn't fucking care. And I need to hold on to that because he doesn't give a shit when I shout at him. He doesn't get scared when I shout at him. He doesn't understand what I'm doing. And he's a little bit kind of taken aback by the loud noise. So his ears will go backwards 'cause he'd be like, What are you doing? Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And and sometimes he'll run away because he's just like, fuck that. But he's not actually upset. But Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I know what mean. Trevor Holland: but when I do and I only shout at him because of the sensory overload sometimes of him Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I sometimes I feel a little bit overwhelmed by him and smothered or or sometimes he'll he'll meow just a hundred times and I can't take the sound of it. I'll s I'll sometimes I really, really shout at him, but almost immediately I feel Sarah: You feel bad. Trevor Holland: like the worst piece of shit in the world and I will I will absolutely smother him with love. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And I'm like, would I do that if I had kids? I don't think I would. I don't do it to people. But you know, so it makes me feel like an absolute arsehole. But it's just I don't want any animal to ever be anything but absolutely happy and content and well Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: fed and looked after warm and comfortable. That's all I want. I'm sorry I'm banging on about it. Sarah: No no no, because I want to say I don't like it when I see people like pull like yank on the dog's lead I'm like why would you do that like just train them would be a bit like you know I mean like just don't pull on the lead you're hitting their neck or whatever or then if people leave their dogs outside shops I feel so there's like there's often people that leave them outside as there and then they'll go inside as there and I'm like so I go and sit with the dog because I feel so sad for them Like there's been two times that I've done that because my boyfriend goes in as I don't like going in as though it's too it's too much for me so I'll sit in the car and then people leave their dogs outside as there No, no, They don't know where you... they think you've abandoned them. So I'm not doing that. I'll go and sit and talk to the dog. And then when it was really hot, like you're not supposed to walk your dog in the heat. There was a woman walking her dog down the front of mine and I shouted at her, tell her to just go and get inside with your dog. It's too hot to walk your dog. No, Trevor Holland: And you're not a confrontational person, are you? Sarah: but I am with dogs. Trevor Holland: Yeah, it's like the r the the rules don't apply, do they? Sarah: Yeah, yeah, I never, so I'm never confronta- I say this, I'm never confrontational when it comes to my feelings, only other people's. Like, I'll stick up for my nephew, I'll stick up for my friends, and I'll stick up for animals and stuff, but I won't stick up for myself. Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: That's interesting. That's exactly it, isn't it? You've hit the nail on the head 'cause I don't think about that. Because I I'm I'm really I would say I would go as far as to say that it's almost a phobia, my my my fear of confrontation. It's i it's it it's definitely a it's definitely irrational. So I would I Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, same. I don't like it at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: would call it I would call it a phobia because it's it's it's fear of what's gonna happen. I think every single confrontation is gonna result in me being murdered. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, I just don't like Trevor Holland: But someone's just gonna kill me. Sarah: it at all. Genuinely, because I've spoken to my therapist about this and I get like an actual feeling in my body. I just don't. I don't like it at all. It's like a feeling in my stomach and it makes me feel sick. I can't do it when it comes to myself because I just don't like it. But if it's someone else, apps are fucking literally not. Don't you Trevor Holland: I have Sarah: dare wrong that person, don't you dare wrong that dog. Trevor Holland: I have a real kind of visceral kind of reaction to adrenaline. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: so whenever I get a hit of adrenaline, I thought it was fight or flight. I thought those were the two things. But there's freeze as well. Fight f fight, flight or freeze. And I didn't know about the Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Trevor Holland: third one. whenever I have get a real hit of adrenaline when my body is preparing me for what it thinks is gonna be a fight, I can physically feel it running through my body and I I shake. I get the shakes and my face goes bright purple because of the the Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: the increase in my blood pressure. So I change colour and I shake like uncontrollably. So it looks like I'm just like terrified because I'm shaking, but it's not my body's just uncontrollably trying to react to this to this adrenaline. But then if you don't then because I never use the adrenaline. So I get the adrenaline here and then I don't do anything with it. I don't use it to to have the fight that it that what Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: my body's preparing me for. So eventually it will kind of settle down, but then the there's a dump that comes. Not a not an actual dump. An adrenaline Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're in adrenaline. Trevor Holland: dump that then makes me feel like really weak at the knees like I'm gonna pass out and then Sarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Trevor Holland: then I will cry Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: because it's like it's just the release of it. And I don't under it's it's really strange for me. But anyway, the point I'm making is i I've never had to do this, but I can imagine I would not give a shit if I saw a dog. No, not I wouldn't give a shit about confronting the person. If Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: like I reckon If I walk past someone's car in August and it's fucking ninety degrees, ninety five degrees, and there's a dog in the back of that car, the windows are all closed. The engines the clearly the the the the air con's not turned on. There isn't even a water bowl in there, which it would be a waste of time anyway, 'cause it'd be like drinking hot water. I can imagine Sarah: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Smashing the window. Trevor Holland: myself just smashing the window. Sarah: Yeah I would. I'd smash all the fucking windows. Trevor Holland: Smash all of them. Not just enough to get the dog out. You'd smash all the windows. You take the dog, then smash all the windows, then chau torch the fucker. What take the dog Sarah: Yeah. I'm smashing all of them. Yeah. Yeah yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: home. Sarah: Yeah. I'm not having the dog anymore. You don't deserve it, you cunt. Trevor Holland: That's it. I I scarcely feel that we deserve animals. Sarah: Yeah, I said to my boyfriend the other day people I said to my boyfriend people should have to like do some sort of test to see if they if they Like a drive like a driver's test but a test to see if they can like look after an animal because some people don't train them They don't like love them enough. They don't deserve them. Like they look they're shit Trevor Holland: People when they sa I mean, do you like do you like all animals? Sarah: I'm scared of some. Trevor Holland: Right. What are you scared of? Sarah: I can't pick up a spider. My mum can just do this. With a spider. I can't, I can't do Trevor Holland: I can do that but it to it took me it Sarah: that. Trevor Holland: it took me a while to to to be able to do that. I don't know why I was scared of spiders and and now I'm not. I don't know how th how how that really happened. Sarah: My brother was the same, my brother used to be absolutely terrified of spiders when he was a kid and now he's just not. Trevor Holland: Yeah. I look at them and I act but I I don't I don't look at them and and try to like be okay with it. I look at them and actively find them cute. I'm not even trying to convince myself that I'm okay with it. It's Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: just look at that spider, it's gorgeous. It's like how the fuck but anyway, what else are you scared of? Scared of spiders. Sarah: I like moths. Trevor Holland: Moths are creepy. I like them, but they are creepy. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: They're like dusty butterflies. Sarah: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. And then they just like eva- like evaporate into thin air. They do? You like can touch them off and

they're just like- Trevor Holland: This they they kind of explode. Did you know that? A tarantula will explode if you drop it. Sarah: What? Trevor Holland: I might be exaggerating and guys please in the comments tell me that how wrong I am. But what I'm hearing is Sarah: from how high? Trevor Holland: I think like just if I was walking around holding a holding a tarantula and I dropped it on on on on the floor and it was maybe like a hard tiled or wooden floor or something, there's a chance that that tarantula would explode. Sarah: Wow. Trevor Holland: I don't know how wrong I am about that but I think they're really delicate and they will just kind of go pfft But Sarah: Okay, wow. Trevor Holland: anyway, the reason I was asking you that question is because I l I basically love everything, every creature. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: I had a an infestation of ants about ten years ago. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: I just had because I used to live in a flat in the same house I live in now, but it was a different a different flat and it th the the front door went straight out into the garden so we had a just a shitload of ants in the kitchen. And I had no choice but to kill loads of ants. I didn't want to do it, but I had to do. And I cried about it that later that day. Later that day I was sitting down with Sarah and I was talking to her about the fact that I had to kill all these ants. I just sat there and started crying. 'Cause I didn't want to do it. That's the level that we're talking about. I once accidentally killed a tiny little lizard. I remember I was in Florida with my with my parents when I was about sixteen. and in the condo complex there was a there was a s swimming pool and I was having a swim and I had this volleyball as well that I was carrying around. I got out of the swimming pool and I had the volleyball under my arm and I saw this little lizard just sitting by the pool and I was like, Hello mate and I bent down and I was s like stroking on his little head. I dropped the fucking ball on him. And his eyes popped out of his head. Sarah: Fuck off. Trevor Holland: I'm serious. I dropped the ball on him and his eyes were and I killed the fucking thing. And I and I watched and I w I Sarah: my god I'll be mortified. Trevor Holland: I and I watched him move and then stop moving. Sarah: No. Trevor Holland: And I'm like, I was absolutely fucking devastated for years about Sarah: yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: that. Cause all I wanted to do is hang out with the thing and I fucking killed him. But I I love pigeons, like as you know, 'cause I almost died w looking at one. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: But you get people and look, you're entitled to your opinion. If you feel this way as well, then you know, it is what it is. But when people say, but they're vermin. But they're technically vermin. Why do you like pigeons? They're vermin. And I can you define for me what a what vermin actually is? Because Sarah: Now I think they've got glitter in the feathers. Trevor Holland: Pigeons exist in the form that they're in because they are creatures that were rejected by people because they were they were they were domesticated and then they were rejected. And now they're just trying to get by. now I don't know the dictionary definition of vermin, but isn't it like a per a perva like a a pervasive kind of scavenger? What the fuck is the difference If you're looking at vermin as a pervasive scavenger who just completely takes over the world by being overpopulated and just drains the resources and spreads diseases, then what you're describing is a fucking human. So don't you fucking try and throw shade at me for liking pigeons because they've been categorized as something that don't deserve love. I fucking hate that shit. So what do you think what are you saying then that pigeons deserve to die because you've decided that they're not worthy? Fuck off. We have eight billion people on this planet. When I was a child, there are only six billion people on this planet. So in the last thirty-five to forty years, we have got gone from six to eight billion. We are getting we are there are too many people. Leave the pigeons alone and just fucking stop Sarah: Leave the picture. Trevor Holland: having kids. Stop having children and hug a pigeon. That is my hug Sarah: pigeon. Trevor Holland: a pigeon, stop having children. Sarah: What do you think about animated animals? Trevor Holland: Got no issue with them. Sarah: Do you have feelings towards them? Trevor Holland: What sort of feelings? Sarah: So, when I was a child, there was a film- I probably can't watch it now either. There was a film I couldn't watch. There's probably loads of- Bambi I can't watch. But there was a film called Once Upon a Forest. Trevor Holland: That sounds like it's gonna be sad. Sarah: yeah and at the end all of the little all of the little forest animals find their parents except one and he's a little mole and he wears glasses and his glasses are broken and he can't find his parents and I sobbed my heart out because he couldn't find his parents and he especially couldn't because he was blind with his and his glasses were broken and it takes me just to find his parents it probably takes about 15 seconds in the film and I was sobbing and then he eventually finds his parents and and me grandad had taped these like video cassette tape them He'd done that and then Snow White right after it on VHS, right? Trevor Holland: Right. Sarah: And I always wanted to watch Snow White. And so you had to fast forward Once Upon a Forest to get to Snow White. And he always like stopped it at the very end of Once Upon a Forest. And I would sob. and then watch Snow White. I'm like, no, I can't watch them all. I can't watch the little mole. And then we go and he's like, but he finds his mum and dad. finds his mum and dad. I'm like, no, but he doesn't. He doesn't. And he's like, but he does. He finds them. And like, I can't watch even animated animals. Be

sad. It hurts me heart. Hi Sam. He's behind you. Trevor Holland: Where is he? Sarah: there the other side on the sofa there you go Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: but and in films not even just animated ones but like in film ahhhh gonna jump around like put me down Trevor Holland: Don't resist the love. Go on the microphone. Go on the microphone. Say something. I have similar things like that. really strange things used to make me cry when I was a kid. I used to cry every time the Hovis advert came on. Sarah: Why? Trevor Holland: Because of the sad s the sad music. You know that the the music from the Hovis advert? I can't remember the name of the song. It's like You know that? Sarah: Beautiful voice. No. Okay. Trevor Holland: The Hovis song used to make me cry. stuff like that. I used to I used to be so weird things would make me cry, and I think that was like the early sign of of having a strange kind of relationship with my emotions because I wouldn't understand why I was crying. I would never understand it. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: I would I mean I I'm I'm really sad about this, but I don't know what it is that's making me sad. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but weird things used to scare me as well. I used to be terrified of people with no eyebrows. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: They used to freak me the fuck out. If ever I met someone who didn't have eyebrows, I'd be s really scared of them and I wouldn't be able to look at them. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: And and I still don't understand it, but I'm starting to think maybe it's because if I'm trying to kind of if I'm trying to examine it through the lens of autism, I'm wondering if it's because it's harder to see their facial expression. Yeah. It's Sarah: Yeah, yeah, cause it's a of... Trevor Holland: my mum had to remind me when I was shitting myself because I was scared of people with no eyebrows that I really liked Whoopi Goldberg and she's got no eyebrows. So my mum had to tell me, but you like Whippy Goldberg and she's got no eyebrows and that blew my mind. So I'm like, my God, to am I allowed to still like Whippy Goldberg because she's got no eyebrows. And maybe it's because she maybe it's because she's got dark skin. I didn't notice it. I don't know. But but I remember seeing a picture in the in the newspaper of a woman with no eyebrows and I was about probably about four years old and I was like, Trevor, you can do this. Look at the picture. Sarah: Ha Trevor Holland: Look at the picture. You can do this. She can't hurt you. You can do this. And I remember sitting there going, Yeah, Trev, I can do this. And I sat there and I went, I can do this, I can do this. Sarah: You Trevor Holland: I can't do this. Like I was also absolutely shit scared of Wurzel gummage when I was a kid. Sarah: Well, yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah, but I'm not sure that it's that normal to be scared at Word of Gummage. 'Cause he was just this Sarah: Okay, I don't watch it. Trevor Holland: But you're familiar

with it. Sarah: Yeah I'm familiar with her. I don't know if people Trevor Holland: Yeah, it's just a scarecrow that comes to life. Sarah: were scared of him though. Trevor Holland: I mean, he was he had a s a really scary face for me. he had he Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: he had a a a carrot for a nose. Sarah: Nose, yeah. Trevor Holland: He was f full of h s straw. I think he had birds living inside him. and he would take his head off. And sh swap it with another head because he had different hats with different heads for different situations. So he would just go into this room full of these heads that are all alive and talking, and he'd choose, like, I'll take my head off, I'll I'll put this head head on today. but just the idea of him living out in this field with these crows just hanging like this, and then just being like, and he is alive, and he scared me so much that My sister, you remember when in the eighties there were lots of annuals, right? You still get annuals, like the hardback, like Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: the Beano or whatever. My sister Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: had a Wurzel Gummage annual. I think it was like the nineteen eighty six or nineteen eighty-seven Wurzel Gummage annual. And I still remember it to this day. It had a bright yellow cover on it. And I didn't know that my sister owned that, but I happened to see it once. And I saw the picture of Wurzwell Gummage on the front cover of this annual, and it scared the living shit out of me. So when I went to bed that night, all I could think about was that in this house, there's a picture of Wurzwell Gummage staring at me. And I can't sleep. And I was crying Sarah: god. Trevor Holland: and making a fuss. And I couldn't sleep until my mum went into some my sister's bedroom, took The fucking words were gummage annual brought it into me and tore it into pieces in front of me. Sarah: my fucking god god Trevor Holland: my sister had no say in it. She wasn't like, hang on, this is my fucking book. I ha Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but the thing is, my mum was well strong as well because she was ri ripping a hard back and she was like, fucking just just destroy it destroy Sarah: Yeah, yeah, get in, Hulk. Trevor Holland: destroyed it and made sure it was buried in the bottom of the bin where there was nothing about his Sarah: He belongs. Trevor Holland: nothing about his face that could be recognized anymore. And only then Sarah: Wow. Trevor Holland: I could go to sleep. So I had these really weird things that I was scared of. And th yeah, things that would upset me. So yeah, on your s on on your thing about animals, yes. Any kind of anthropomorphicised animal, I don't it's not even ant anthropomorphosized, is it? It it it goes beyond that. It's not like I I'm attributing human emotions to this animal. It's These are the emotions that you already have, but now you're able to express them in with human words. So yeah, an animal gets sad. in any way. You know, like Yeah, like Bambi's Mum Dying, that kind of thing. You know, that's the old classic, isn't it? but anything like Sarah: I wasn't- it wasn't even Bambi's mum dying, it was Bambi being alone. Trevor Holland: Well yeah. It is really, if you think about it. It it Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: is that. But Sarah: The mole being alone as a little baby. Trevor Holland: Being alone, being left out, being the odd one out, Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: being isolated, feeling sad, feeling Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: feeling like they've got nowhere to turn and no one no one who cares for them. We're projecting, aren't we? I mean, I Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: know we're s we're psychoanalysing, but but w when when we see that and it makes us sad, it's because we're projecting our own feelings onto that. Because we're like, I don't want that animal to feel like I've had to feel my whole life. Sarah: Yeah. Well, I'm seven. Trevor Holland: But you still say that. At seven I was saying stuff like that to myself. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I was saying that while I was crying in the mirror. Trevor Holland: Ha. Yeah, the no th so what Sarah: You Trevor Holland: my biggest nightmare I was thinking about the weird things that used to make me scared, right? So obviously they've got the no eyebrows people. I was one of my recurring nightmares when I was a kid, and I think about it quite a lot now because it's so obvious what it means. but one of my biggest nightmares was I'd be just doing something. And there might be loads of people around, but somewhere in the distance someone would notice me. So everyone around me was doing was doing their own thing, but somewhere someone has noticed me. And they will look at me and they'll stare at me. That would be enough. That was a nightmare for me. And I think it was just being seen, being noticed. was was a n was nightmare fuel for me. But it was always someone with a really scary face and they would just stare at me. But I didn't know what would happen next. So like is this person gonna go is this person gonna get me? But they're not even necessarily following me or chasing me. They're just they've just noticed me and they I'm the centre of their attention Sarah: wow. Trevor Holland: and they don't like me. And that that was my nightmare. It happened all the time. So I think even now, someone gives me the stink eye, I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, yeah, what have I done? Trevor Holland: Yeah, I think I was quite a complicated kid. Sarah: Yeah, I think we all were, weren't we? Trevor Holland: Yeah. Jesus Christ. Yeah, I've completely forgotten about the no eyebrows people. But that's a really stupid one. But to be fair, even now, even now, I'd be a little bit no, I'm not scared of people with no eyebrows anymore. But I s I think I might remind myself of the way I used to feel. So if I saw someone with no eyebrows now and they had a certain expression on their face, it might take me half a second.

'Cause I might be a little bit like Sarah: hahahaha Trevor Holland: Yeah, fuck you know. Are you scared of any weird shit? Sarah: trying to think of things but I'm just... slow process, no? don't know. it'll probably Trevor Holland: no, it's a it's Sarah: come to me when we finish the episode. I'll be like AHHHH Trevor Holland: Well, I I I I should know better than to ask you a question out of the blue like that and put you on the spot. Sarah: I know. yeah, me quite... This is what I'm like. I was, Like, when, When we were in York a few weeks ago, I literally had me camera around me neck and a guy went to me, What, what, what? You look like you've got a good camera, what is it? And I just went, I'm Nikon. And my fellow went, it's a Nikon Z and I'm in... It's a Nikon Z 6.3, actually. But as soon as he first asked me I was like it's a Nikon and I don't know anything else about it, that's all I know. And as soon as he said, was gonna say it I was like, I know what it is, I know what it is! But like, the first thing I don't know. So like if someone asks me a question, I don't know. What's your favourite colour? Every single colour, don't know. What's your favourite food? I don't know any food in existence. Trevor Holland: I don't know any colours. I don't know any foods. Sarah: Like... But in 20 minutes, I'll tell you. Trevor Holland: It's like I I'm I'm one of the most introspective people that I know. I feel like I've got such a good relationship with my thoughts and my ability to articulate my thoughts. I know very few people who can do it like I can without being arrogant about it. However, y you just can't put me on the spot because I will be I will lose every bit of information I've ever had. Sarah: Yeah, it's horrible. Trevor Holland: What's your what's your fav who's your favorite what's your favorite band? You know, but I tell people that I cook, what's your signature meal? It's like Sarah: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Trevor Holland: so job interviews are just a horror show. Tell me something interesting about yourself. What do you want to know? Ask me a specific question. I will give Sarah: Yeah, yeah, tell me about yourself. Yeah, like I don't know. Yeah. Yes. Trevor Holland: you a specific answer. Not what's your favorite colour. Not don't ask me for my opinion on something. Ask Sarah: No. No. Trevor Holland: me a specific question. Do you have any siblings? Yes. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: What's do you have brothers, sisters or both? How old are they? You know, what school did you go to? Tell me Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: your GCSE results. You know. Tell me ask me anything trivia. Gimme that. Give me trivia. But don't ask for my view. Don't ask me to formulate Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: an opinion on something. Because I will forget everything. Because it makes me feel like it used to make me feel like shit. Because I would think, you know what? I'm not a boring person. I'm actually quite an interesting person. I have an interesting

life and I have lots of interesting perspectives on things. But you'd never know it. Because if you ask me, tell me something interesting about yourself, I will seem like the most boring fucker that's ever lived because I will not be able to think of a single thing as interesting about me. Which makes me think, well, if I can't think of anything interesting about me, then obviously there's nothing interesting. So then I then I then I go home from that interview, not only without the job, but hating myself suddenly because I I've just been exposed for being the most boring fucker in the world. So I'm having an identity crisis as well. Fucking on Sarah: Yeah? god. Trevor Holland: the spot, man. I used to be scared of basically all insects. I was scared of I was scared of earwigs and I used to think earwigs and scorpions were the same thing. Because they were they were long things with a with a with a with a an appendage. And so I thought scorpions were earwigs and vice versa. So I was in the garage once when I was about six years old. I liked being in the garage for some reason. and I ran into the house shitting myself and I screamed at my dad, There's a there's a massive scorpion in the garage in the garage. He's like, what are you talking There's a scorpion in the garage. And he went into the garage and he's like, this earwig about the size of a grain of rice. You mean, you mean this scorpion? Yes. That scorpion. Christ. Yeah. Sarah: Amazing. I used to be- going back to the scared thing- I used to be scared of public speaking as an actor. Yeah, I know. Like, I used to do a lot of theatre as a child and so I wasn't scared then but then as I got older- I became scared and then I had to do a presentation at uni and I just literally I spoke like bleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleblebleble just to get through that I had to do a 5 minute presentation and I don't think anyone understood the word I said because I spoke like the flash I was so fast and then funnily enough Well not funnily enough but I did a eulogy at my auntie's funeral. It's not funny. And then the... is she a priest or... I don't know what she was. She tried to then recruit me to the church because I apparently spoke so well. She came up to me at the crematorium and was like, so... because you spoke so well at at the eulogy we'd like to see if you'd like to come and speak at church every so often and i was like what and i was just like no i'm an atheist and she was like but you you're really good at yeah and i was just like she's like your eulogy was impeccable did you write it yourself and all this and i was like yep she's like but you're you're a really good speaker i was like don't believe in god Trevor Holland: So what what then made you no longer scared of it? Or are you still scared of it? Sarah: no no no not at all. i just like i wanted Trevor Holland: What what changed? Sarah: that Trevor Holland: That was the thing. Wow. Sarah: yeah? So I just hadn't spoke in public again. Like I went to uni and I did my presentation and I was fucking shittery and then when me auntie died they had no one to do speech the eulogy and I wanted to do it for her because she meant a lot to me and I did it and then I tried I almost got recruited so I was like completely good at this and then like a year later or whatever I was like fuck it I'm just gonna go back into acting as well I still get like a little bit nervous when I'm acting in front of people but... Trevor Holland: So you can thank the the person at the at the church or whatever for no well, th that but Sarah: Want me dead on two? Trevor Holland: then also the person who tried to recruit you because it made you kind of feel confident about it. Sarah: Yeah, but loads of people as well came up to me and were like, you're very good. Trevor Holland: Did you what were you like at school, like when whenever that dreaded lesson would come around? I'm th I'm thinking like primary or secondary, but I think mainly primary. W when actually probably secondary, w when get on with the fucking story, Trevor. when everyone has to take internet to read an excerpt from a book out in front of the class. How were you with that? Sarah: Mm. Hated it. Absolutely hated it. I used to like try and skip ahead to see which bit I'd have to read and like Trevor Holland: Learn it. Sarah: learn it, yeah. And be like, can I say all these words? Like, can I pronounce them? And then I'd be like, shaken. Hated it. Because in primary school I was like really confident. Everyone was my friend. I was just like super popular. And then in high school I was invisible. And I was really badly bullied. And I hated high school. You know when people say like, go back to high school in a minute, I would rather die. Yeah, Trevor Holland: No, high school was fucking horseshit, I hated it. Sarah: hated it. Hated it. Trevor Holland: Yeah, I I would be so, so scared to do stuff like that. And I I'd I'd disassociate. I'd have a complete out of body experience. Especially if I was last. You'd have to go through the whole lesson knowing that your turn's coming. So the absolute dread I I was I was super, super introverted and didn't want anyone to notice me. I didn't want to have to do anything that that would that people would be able to see or hear because I was just terrified. I don't know why even why really. I I've almost talked about it on a I've talked about it on a on

an episode I'm sure. you know, whenever whenever I was tasked with doing anything that involved me having to speak to somebody, like a a stranger, I would I I would freeze and won't know what to do. so I was I was terrified of all of that stuff all the way through school. and into adulthood as well. But I realised it was holding me back. because At that time, in my mid twenties, late twenties, I was really wanting to e to entertain in some capacity. And I was really starting to get into comedy. now I got I started presenting presenting local radio for a c like community station and I really enjoyed that but it didn't worry me because it was an anonymous to an extent and I didn't get nervous doing it. I enjoyed doing it it's like you know what I I what I actually secretly want to do is do stand up but it seemed like such such an abstract concept because i people like me don't get to do stand up because it it Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: because you don't perform in front of people. It's like But it's it planted a seed in my head that wouldn't go away. And then something else that happened is I realised this stage fright, this performance phobia that I've got or this even public speaking or anything like that, it's really holding me back in my life. So I thought I you know, I'm an all or nothing person, so I will not try and find a simple solution. I will find the biggest, most bombastic solution possible for the problem. So the first thing I did was I auditioned for the X Factor. yeah, I did. I didn't want I don't want to be a sing I don't want to be a pop star, but I thought If there's one thing worse than talking in front of people, it's singing in front of Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: I can hold a tune. I'm not a great singer, but I can hold a tune. I'm you know, I'm competent. but I auditioned for the X Factor and I I was in a queue outside the O two in Greenwich for six hours. Sarah: my god. Trevor Holland: When when it it it wasn't the one where you audition in front of the live audience. It was where Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you're auditioning in front i i inside the O two it was like broken up into tiny little cubicles and there's like someone from Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: the someone from the crew is in there or a couple of people and you would just go into one of the cubicles, sing for thirty seconds, and they say yes or no. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: but all day I had to build up the feelings that I'm gonna be singing in front of some people today. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And I just did it. I don't know what happened, but I just belted it out. I thought, fuck it. Sarah: Yeah, what did you think? Trevor Holland: I can't remember. I can't remember the song. I can't rem I remember I remember forgetting the the words halfway through. But then I I caught myself and I z I and I sorted out. They told me thanks but no thanks and I almost didn't give a shit. But because I had won something that day. I had a there's a big significant victory against myself. And I was like, I just fucking sung in front of some people. But then that wasn't enough, so I thought I can't keep telling myself that I don't want to be a stand up comic because I do, but I'm too scared. Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: But One thing led to another and I got in conta someone who came onto the radio show who ran an open mic night locally said, Why don't you just come on I'll give you twenty minutes. Just come on come and do some stuff. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: And I'm like, is that how it works? Then you just you just So I did it. And it was the most scared I've been in my life. More scared than I was when I did the the singing. I think it's 'cause I was actually doing it to an audience. I think it's because Sarah: Yeah, and it was the actual thing you wanted to do. Yeah, Trevor Holland: Yeah. And I I was so nervous, every single part of my body was telling me not to do it. Every single part of me. That adrenaline thing I was telling about earlier was happening. my body was preparing me for something big because i it felt the nerves and I was like, I I'm I might be sick, I might shit. I might get an I might start bleeding out of my eyes. I don't know. Something's gonna something's something is bubbling. I don't I don't like it was like the it was the worst. I was like, I'm gonna have to do this, I'm gonna have to do this, I'm have to do this. But something in me gave me the strength to just say, I am going to do it. And I did it. I stood there in front of a mic in the middle of a pub where no one was really paying attention because it was an open mic night. And I did like ten or so minutes of stand up and I'm one of these guys who I refuse to be one of the comedians who reads off notes. I just don't like Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: it. So not only did I do it but I I did an act, I did a set that I'd prepared that I'd learned. and I've and I vibed it. I and and then I thought, fucking hell, I can do this. Then I did it again and again and again and again. And then I I got to the point where I was turning up to gigs and just absolutely killing it when I hadn't prepared 'cause I started vibing off the audience and started doing crowd work and then started Sarah: Get in. Trevor Holland: like doing callbacks to a joke that another actor done half an hour ago. And I'm like, Holy shit And I stopped doing comedy because I'll you know, it was it it turned out it was a bit a bit of an ADHD flash in the pan. But what that did is I suddenly now do not give a fuck. about public speaking. And I actually relish it. So if I'm in at at work, if I'm ever in a situation where I have the opportunity to do a presentation, I'm like, Yeah, let me do it. I I wanna do it because I know that I'm really entertaining. I know that I've Sarah: Yeah Trevor Holland: got a really interesting way of speaking. I know that people like hi listening to me. I delude myself into thinking that. But Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland:

It's weird 'cause it's gone from like my worst nightmare to something that I actively kind of seek out. So we're similar to you in that sense. I was terrified Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: of that shit. And now I love it. Sarah: Yeah, same. Trevor Holland: But I'm not sure if I could release my inhibitions enough to to act. That's what I hear about acting. I'd love to act because I write, as you know, and every time I write something, I r imagine myself in it. I always write myself as basically the lead character because I write a character that is a certain sort of bastardized version of myself in a way. And I always imagine whenever I close my eyes, I can imagine the cast, I can imagine the set, I can imagine this everything about it, and it's always my face. I'm always the lead character. but I was thinking about it and w one, it doesn't work like that. but two, all I hear about when I hear people talk about acting, and I'm sure you probably can fill me in on this a little bit, is that you just have to completely just rid yourself of any feelings of I'm making a tit of myself, right? Of the inhibitions, the kind of embarrassment. You you just need to throw yourself into it completely and not hold back in any is that right? you how do you feel about doing that? Is there something that you had to learn how to do? Sarah: don't think so. The certain... it depends what the script is. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: Yeah, like sometimes it's a lot easier. I mean, yeah, it depends what the script is. Trevor Holland: So it doesn't like say you're on a Sarah: Sometimes you do feel like you're... You're playing. You're pretending. Trevor Holland: Yeah. Sarah: That's how I always think of it. You're just pretending. You're pretending to be someone else. And if... if you think of it too much you're you're over thinking It's not gonna work. like I forgot what you said. Trevor Holland: Just whether that was a skill you had to develop or or not or or or just something that you had to learn how to do to be able to just let go of all your inhibitions and your embarrassment and just throw yourself into it. Sarah: I don't feel like I have that many, much embarrassment around it because I just love doing it. Trevor Holland: Right. Sarah: I'm sure a lot of other people do because, well not a lot of other people but other people do because they've got like a... whatever they think about themselves, you know what mean? But I just don't. I've always been masking, so it's just like her. Trevor Holland: Well, yeah, I mean that is true. And you know, I I say I'm not an actor. I'm not a professional actor, but I'm a fucking actor. I'm a very good actor. Because no w most people don't know who I really am. Sarah: Yeah. There's all, there's... Yeah, there's like, there's techniques and everything that you pick up and you've gotta, you've gotta build a character. And you've gotta do your who, where, when, how, your objectives, your tactics, you've gotta do all that.

But, like once you've got all that and you make your character, bam, we're not doing that anyway. Trevor Holland: And do you do what I do when you're writing, do you do you r write with yourself in mind? Sarah: sometimes. Like the thing that I'm writing at the moment is she's a female serial killer. And I'm like, I could be her. Trevor Holland: Every time I write a leading character or every time I write a character who I imagine myself being, it's always a traumatized Sarah: Ahem. Trevor Holland: depressed man who has been through Sarah: really? Trevor Holland: who's who's been who who had a spark, who lost their spark through circumstances or through his own actions or things that he's done, choices he's made, and he is reluctantly thrown into a situation where he has the opportunity to redeem himself. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: It's in it's always some sort of version of that. It's always Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: like can he let go of the past? Can he turn things around? Ca he says he hates people but he actually cr really likes these people. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Trevor Holland: He doesn't want to like them and he keeps holding back his affections but he actually loves these people. Can he let go of that and actually just lean into the fact that actually he cares about people. You know, it's Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: always a broken person trying to fix himself. I think because I know how to write that. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: Yeah. That's gonna be I c we keep saying it a hundred percent. I'm gonna email you today, Sarah: No. Trevor Holland: actually. I'm gonna email you one of my scripts today. It's it's only a thirty minute, so it's only thirty pages. Sarah: Okay. Trevor Holland: this is like the the most busy woman in in in the UK and I'm gonna say, Yeah, sit and read this thirty page script But Sarah: No, it's alright. I'm only bit... I am busy today but I'm not tomorrow. I know your deadline. Trevor Holland: I'm not gonna say like yeah, I'm not gonna give you a dead I'm not giving you a fucking deadline to read. D how do you feel about sending me something something of yours? Sarah: Yeah, sounds. Trevor Holland: You don't care? Good. Sarah: I haven't finished anything at all, just like, what? I Trevor Holland: You haven't got like a Sarah: haven't got to finish, I haven't got to finish script, I've got to finish like short stories and poetry. Trevor Holland: I didn't even know he wrote poetry. Sarah: because screenwritings are very new to me. Trevor Holland: is it? I know I know that you're Sarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I have only. Trevor Holland: I know you're doing your classes and stuff. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I thought it was something you've been doing for a while. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. No, it is. It's, yeah, it's no, no, no, it's very no. Trevor Holland: completely different, isn't it? It's a completely different type of writing. It's Sarah: Yeah, yeah. So different. Trevor Holland: Fascinating. I know we talked about it Sarah: I know. Trevor Holland: already, but it's like it's like a it literally is a puzzle and there are certain rules you have to follow, there are certain formulas that Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: you have to meet, you have to do things in a certain way because otherwise it doesn't work. And i it's not just about telling a story, but it's but you've got to take what you think is a story and then you've got to dissect it into its tiniest Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: little components and then reassemble it into something that follows very specific set of rules. And it's Sarah: of the... Trevor Holland: It's really eye opening 'cause like I s Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: like I said to you when I first started doing my classes, I thought I am the bollocks and this person's just gonna tell me that I am Sarah: Yeah Trevor Holland: the shit and there's nothing that she can teach me. Like you've learned everything. You're already a genius. And she told me that you can't write for shit. You can't write for Sarah: And it's like, nah. Yeah. Trevor Holland: shit. You can write really good dialogue, but you cannot fucking structure a story for shit. Sarah: Yeah. Trevor Holland: so yeah, I will I will s I'll send you and see how you feel about it. Sarah: world. Trevor Holland: all right. Well, that was fun. But it's lunchtime, mate. Sarah: I know, you love your lunchtime Trevor Holland: And you gotta go and you gotta take Zanoff somewhere in a bit, haven't you? Sarah: Yeah, he's got an ADHD follow-up. Trevor Holland: Yeah, that's the thing we were talking about. Sarah: I've got mine the rest of the week in Thursday. Fun times. Trevor Holland: Yeah, and that's actually another point. I need to take my medication. Just run out. 'Cause you can tell 'cause I've completely run out of words suddenly. I'm like Sarah: Bleh. Trevor Holland: okay, I've said all the things. People with no eyebrows are scary and I don't like scorpions in my garage. Sarah: Scorpio wigs. Trevor Holland: All right, mate. Yeah, well, guys. I forgot that this isn't actually a left. I was just treating this like it was just a call. right. Sarah: Anyway, bye guys. Trevor Holland: Yeah, this is actually a a bro a broadcast, isn't it? so thank you very much, everybody. as I always ask you, if you enjoyed this podcast, please do support it by liking, subscribing, following. commenting, interacting, doing all the things that people that require external validation like us really appreciate. And it just genuinely speaking, it does really help us to grow as a podcast, get it into as many earls and ILs as possible. the best way of it becoming favorable from a distribution point of view is if it has reviews and in and and engagement. So please do do that. Very much appreciate it. Follow us on Instagram at Shouty Brain. Visit shoutybrain.com to see all the bits and pieces not forgetting that we have our fantastic fourth wall store on there if you want to get a shouty brain t-shirt like this or other stuff similar but until next week please have a wonderful time please look after yourselves please look after each other and for fuck's sake be kind Sarah: Stay weird, protect your peace, see you later pals. Trevor Holland: Peace.