สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
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Welcome to the Shift Stirits.
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Before we dive in, we acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands where we record.
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Michelle and Rosemary work on the lands of the Bun Worung and Warangeri people of the Kulin Nation.
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We pay our respects to elders past, present, and emerging.
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As we talk about transitions and shifts in our own lives, we recognise that First Nations people have been adapting, surviving and thriving on this continent for over 65,000 years.
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The world's longest continuing culture.
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Sovereignty was never ceded, always was, always will be.
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I'm good.
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I'm excited about today's episode because you and I have been out stirring the shift again.
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We've done an out and about episode and we went to see the Vivian Westwood Rhea Kawabuku exhibition, which we both loved, and we're going to go through that with you today.
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But first of all, Rosemary, before we start, why do we stir the shift?
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Sometimes I need you to remind me.
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Well, we stir the shift because we hope we're talking to our listeners who actually are uh creatives in their own right and may want to shift their life from a corporate world to a more artisian lifestyle.
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Our work and what we talk about is not to make you make that change, but to make you curious within your life about how you can make changes to make yourself more creative.
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Yes, and you you can take your you can take your creative work into your corporate world as well.
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You definitely are as my crocheting scientist book shows you, he takes his crochet hooks and wool to work.
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I'm Michelle Benson.
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And I'm Roseme Patterson.
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And we're the shifter stirrers.
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Oh, that's right.
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That's what that's what we are.
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We are at that.
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Okay, so Vivian Westwood.
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Yeah.
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Now, when we went, I don't think either of us realised that we were seeing Rhea Karabuku as well, which her work, by the way, was absolutely stunning.
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But we didn't research and investigate into it for this actual podcast.
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I if she comes back to if her work comes back to Melbourne, I'd really love to spend more time.
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We looked at it at the time, but we didn't do our assessment on her work.
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We went to visit Bibby and Westwood.
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As you can see from the pictures, Rosemary and I were at the National Art Gallery in Melbourne with the great big thumb, which was an amazing piece of artwork that's out the front of the National Gallery at the moment.
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And then we went in.
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We actually used the critique from the Daring Artist Group, which was developed by Amy Kennedy, which is a very what's the word I'm looking for, Rosemary?
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It's a very um not subjective structured.
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Structured critique session, which is very objective.
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That's the word I was looking for.
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I'm not sure how much we stuck to it actually, Michelle, but anyway.
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What would you we want to acknowledge that?
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My thoughts, my thoughts were down that path, that that objective path that that we have learnt through the Daring Artist.
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Yes.
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So we bought the book, as you do.
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You we will be showing you throughout these photos from the Vivian Westwood and Ria Karabuku book that was presented by the exhibition.
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And we critique garments.
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So, Rosemary, let's go to the first one.
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Great, yes.
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Well, the first one is um this gorgeous model in a parachute type looking um outfit with a red shirt, overhanging shirt, and tartan pants.
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For me, the restrictions of the parachute top felt like maybe trying to display sort of freedom and and um and a new way of a free way of dressing, and yet it's restrictive.
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I actually really liked it.
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Just to just for people who don't know about Vivian Westwood, she and her second husband founded the shop in King's Road in England called Sex, and her husband actually was the manager for the band, the Sex Pistols, back in the back in the 70s.
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And although she'd been involved in fashion before, this was really when Vivian Westwood started to come to the front of her fashion career.
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And what she was doing is she was actually shouting out against the establishment that you didn't have to because in the 70s dress was fairly conservative, and she was shouting out that you didn't have to dress conservatively, you could actually make changes.
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I thought that the tartan pants I loved.
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I I was a bit concerned about the the legs, that the fact they had this strap between the legs.
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But then when you actually look at the photo in the book that I'm showing now, you can see people walking in and the strap was
Load full transcript
actually quite long.
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You could you wouldn't want to run in it, but it was quite long.
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I loved the shirt.
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I really loved the shirt.
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I loved the juxtaposition between the tartan and the bold blocking of the colours in the shirt.
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The parachute harness, I don't know what statement she was trying to make with that, uh, but it did make it different.
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It did it did show a breakout from the conservative conservatism of the time.
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And especially when you think this is a man's outfit.
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It wasn't a woman's outfit, it was a man's outfit.
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The tartans to me, tartans and tweeds, whenever I think of Vivian Westwood, I think of tartans and tweeds.
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So I I actually really, really enjoyed the piece.
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And I will mention that you can't see it in the photo that we've shown you, but the curator had made hats.
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This one was like a mohawk.
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Yeah, very, very interesting, very, very interesting outfit.
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And the the curator's work on all the headpieces, I think, tied the exhibition together.
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So, yeah, I felt uneasy at first looking at it, and then I felt with all that restraint, constraint, I think it was sort of trying to show a freedom, a new way of being.
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Yeah.
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And disclaimer, we don't know anything.
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Right, next one.
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We do know stuff, Rosemary.
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I don't know you.
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I researched onto her and I looked to Yeah, I'm just looking at it from an artist's view that you actually have fashion, you've got a fashion certificate, haven't you?
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Yes, I have a by an arts and fashion degree.
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Right, next.
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So, Rosemary, you go ahead because you've got the critique notes.
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What?
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Well, I wrote my notes.
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I just love this piece because it felt like perhaps colonial out in the Australian Outback, but it was sort of cheeky.
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And um, it could be for female, male, or binary, non-binary.
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Yeah, loved I love the fabric which Michelle will describe, and I felt it was a dapper outfit and yeah, it could be unisex.
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What do you want to add to that?
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Well, to me, that this these these pants, I think they definitely were made for a gentleman.
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And it's it was the start of her moving away from her rebellion against the establishment to actually fitting in with the establishment and moving in a totally different direction.
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So I I just an aside, Vivian Westwood is a woman.
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I the more I've read about her, the more I think I'd have loved to meet her.
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She was a force of nature.
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And we will go into that a bit later.
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But she just she was a civil rights activist, she was uh very involved in climate change, she campaigned for nuclear disarmament.
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But she actually um she started out working in an area which was against the establishment, but her clothes became so expensive that people within the establishment were buying them, and this is this is tarps back to the Regency area, and again a classic use of stripes and checks, which she, as I said, all her work, even her ball gowns had checks in them.
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There's that restraint too with that leather thing around the neck, which I could not even when we're there, I sort of like the braces where where he's got the braces, they still look like a form of confinement to me.
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That same sort of confinement that the the parachute the parachute thing had, you know.
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You see where I'm coming from, Rosemary?
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Yeah, they they're beautiful actually, beautiful leather.
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They are, but there's that like still that parachute type restraint that was in the last one.
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The fact that it's a male costume and the shirt is designed to be worn off the shoulder, pants very high, the actual piece at the front to me has that look of a cod piece, which was in the Tudor times when the men wore the big cod pieces.
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So I I found it fascinating.
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And just pink on a man in the 70s was something that I think was not very well known.
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So yeah.
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But uh what are you what are you saying?
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Is it described as a male design for a male?
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Because I don't think it really was.
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I definitely thought it was designed for a male because next to it was the female.
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That's so she had the male female.
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And the the female costume had that very ethnic beautiful colours.
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Yeah.
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Uh what am I thinking like?
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I'm thinking of folk costumes from the Russian region.
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Yeah, very, very beautiful, beautiful fabrics, actually.
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The fabrics we just looked at.
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All her fabrics
are beautiful and the top hat that is that the model has been on dress for dinner.
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The top hat to me is also moving towards that that male image of this, because the female one had a crown on it.
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Yeah, but I think with the off-the-shoulder, it would be absolutely stunning on a female or non-binary.
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Yeah, I yeah, but that's now.
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That's now, right?
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So we're talking back in 19, I think this was late 70s, early 80s.
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It would definitely have been considered a costume for him.
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And even actually, okay, how's this?
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The buttoning is a man's buttoning, and the the fly is a man's fly, because buttoning for a woman, a blouse for a woman is the right side is on top, and a blouse and a shirt for a man, the left side is on top, buttoning is a man's buttoning.
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So there we go.
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Well, I still think it'd be beautiful on a woman.
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There's a scene in Bridesmaids where they're fighting and they just they can't agree and they just keep going.
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So I'll finish this segment with I still think it'd be beautiful on a woman.
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Okay.
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Right.
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Next rate.
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The beautiful ball gown.
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Is that the one you've got?
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The pink mushroom.
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Yes.
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I can't find it to refer to, but yes, I loved it.
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You can go first this time.
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You're gonna be a little bit more.
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Well, would you think it's definitely for a male, this one?
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No, I think this one's for a lady.
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Vivian moved much more into the establishment era and she actually became known for her beautiful, beautiful ball gowns.
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Many famous people wore her beautiful, beautiful ball gowns.
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This one is stunning.
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It's absolutely stunning.
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I'm actually putting the picture up a bit longer on this one because it's so beautiful.
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It's I don't, it was a mushroom.
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When you actually saw it in real life, the gown was very mushroom coloured, but the background that the gown is against is red.
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So it sort of comes up this blush pink mushroom, doesn't it?
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It's it's it's very, very scrumptious.
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Is that a word scrumptio?
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Yes.
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She's been lost on a white background.
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It would have been, or even a black background.
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Again, to me, she's this is where she's starting to go into her corsetry era.
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And I'm gonna show some photos out of the book here, too, because she did beautiful, she did the tartan ball gown.
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She did amazing, amazing ball gowns, and very well known people have worn Vivian Westwood gowns.
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But the corsetry here, it's done like a binding, it's like a black binding that's pulling it in.
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Do you think it's a statement, Michelle, where it's almost like being tied up in a way?
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Yeah, it is.
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I saw that a lot in all her work.
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There's a photo I'm gonna show here where it's two photos where the the front of she's got a woman dressed with angel wings on, and the front of the woman is beautiful, sexy woman, and the back of the woman she's got these angels' wings, but she's also got a hands bound behind her back.
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So it was obviously a statement that she made in a lot of things that she did that that we were confined.
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I I do believe, and this is my view, that she seemed to make a statement about people being confined.
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Yeah.
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Which definitely parts definitely into my world.
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The gown is made of silk taffeta, uh, and it was in a room, we could have picked 10, we could have picked 20 gowns.
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They were all stunning and all beautiful.
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Yes.
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But this one appealed to both of us.
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What were your comments on it, Rosemary?
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Yes, I've given my comments, which were not many, but yes, about being confined.
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The use way around the um ribbon around the sleeves looks like it's just been done at the last moment, and it's beautiful and it's creative.
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And that's what I think is the beauty of her work is that things do look like they've just been done.
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But the amount of thought and and effort, and if you actually like, because we could get quite close to it, it was definitely it was done, it was mindfully done.
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Yeah.
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So yeah, it's just yeah, stunning.
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Now, also, Michelle, you had on these um questions that you set up for us, and we walked around with little clipboards.
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No, you walked around with your iPad because you I didn't.
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Yeah.
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There was one sentence that said,
for your own practice.
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So for me, it was taking something old and reworking it for modern days, you did with that dress.
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And so for me, I often think when I write my books of well, in in the latest books about the ancient Greeks and what they knew, and then bringing that back.
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And so I think I'm going to take that for my own practice and keep doing it.
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What we would what we learnt from the old days and reworking it to what are we doing today.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Anything more on that?
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Uh in the same room as this, they had a a wall of an all I can explain it was it was like pulsating reds, which actually to me look like heart.
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I don't know what it looked like to you, Rosemary.
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It sort of looked like heartbeats.
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I actually didn't know what the purpose of it was, but it sort of broke up the change, you know, from going from one dress to another.
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Um, it sort of changed the way you were looking at things.
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It sort of it felt like a river of fabric.
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Like it's pulsating.
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It could have been a river of blood, I don't know.
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But it was definitely, you know, the red of the room, it was like actually in because red is a colour that brings out passion, right?
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It's known for its bringing out passion and it's often associated with passion.
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And it brought out a voluptuousness in the dresses.
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There we are.
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Yep, great.
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Okay, suits.
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Now, this is Vivian Vivian was known for her suits.
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People like Madonna were known for wearing Vivian Westwood suits.
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She uh she made what I call the power suit look powerful.
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Rosemie and I chose different things here.
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So, Roseme, would you like to talk about what you chose?
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I've got a picture of it here.
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Yes, with mine.
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Well, I do love a little velvet collar, which was from my childhood in the 60s, but um what I liked about this was the sections, so one-third, two-thirds of the red with the leopard skin.
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And it just looks complete, this outfit.
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I love the black velvet and the way the little pocket sits on the side.
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All the proportions I like.
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Someone else might not, but the
length of the jacket and then the length of the the shirt.
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What have I written about buttons?
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Is there buttons on there, Michelle?
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Yeah, there is.
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The buttons like are hidden in the leopard print side.
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That's what I wrote.
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Okay, great.
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Um yeah, so I actually the collar is quite big, so that would be probably the only thing that I think doesn't quite match my shape, little default.
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Yeah.
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Um otherwise, beautiful.
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I was so 80s.
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Come on.
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Don't you remember Dallas and the suits in Dallas?
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I don't know.
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I didn't see this in Dallas.
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You know, do you remember the TV series?
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I don't think I watched it.
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Oh, I didn't watch it, but uh, it was all over the television, so you'd see it.
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And the power suits and the power dressing and the the power women.
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And that's the I chose this one, and it was it was sex on wheels, powerhouse dressing.
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I love this suit.
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It to me speaks of the Vivian Westwood who embraced that era just like she in a totally different way, but just like she embraced the punk rock era.
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She shouted it out loud that this was the suit that she created for this era.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:44.480
Yeah, guys.
00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.000
Get corporate jumps so we can wear suits.
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:56.720
Oh no, well, yeah, you well, I actually wore suits in my corporate job, but I have suits now that have dust growing on the show.
00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.559
If I put them on, if I had to go back to work, I don't know what I'd do.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.240
So that was her work.
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:10.079
Also, I will mention in this era that um she was becoming very well known for her tweeds.
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:16.480
And after she passed away, the Harris Tweed Authority released the following statement, which I will read out.
00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:26.799
In the late 80s, Vivian Westwood commenced using use of a logo, which we consider and acknowledge her connections with the industry.
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:33.279
Subsequently, both brands have successfully collaborated with them to their mutual b benefit.
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:38.000
We hope and expect that that collaboration will continue for many years to come.
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:42.880
And it and it was she had a love of checks and tweeds and she did it well.
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:50.880
She brought them out of out of you know the dowdy into the sexy, and yeah, I think I will always remember her for that.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:51.599
So yeah.
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:52.559
Great.
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.960
All right, next, hang on.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.119
I'm looking at the photos as I go.
00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.359
That was our last one on that, wasn't it?
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:00.559
Yeah, that's great.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:06.880
Yeah, so I just want to talk a little bit about Vivian because she was so many interesting things about her.
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:14.000
She was an incredible activist, and I do have a website open with her page on, which I'm looking at now.
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:28.799
But she was known for her her, what did she she was known for her sponsorship of Julian Assage, who uh incarcerated in London for a long time, voluntarily incarcerated in London.
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:40.960
Um she actually was a part of the conservation movement, and it was something else I read that she was actively against, she was anti-consumerism.
00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:50.960
So she would say things like, I don't feel comfortable defending my clothes, but if you've got money and you can afford them, buy something from me, but don't buy too much.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:53.839
Just buy one piece and be happy with that one piece.
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:55.039
That's great.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:02.799
Yeah, she um she actually was uh very much a part of fair distribution of wealth.
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.079
She died in when she was 81 when she died.
00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:08.240
Let me just check my facts here.
00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:10.160
My fact-finding thing.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.160
Yeah, she was 81 when she died.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:21.359
And um, as you can see from these photos, I'm showing you from the book, she uh would ride her bike to uh social events around London.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.480
She wouldn't catch public transport, she'd just ride a bike to the event and ride a bike home from the event.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.160
Her son was uh is I should say is Joseph Korr.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:35.119
He was the founder of Agent Provocateur.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:43.119
So, any ladies listening, that is a beautiful, very sexy brand of lingerie that is extremely well known.
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:49.519
And yeah, if you can afford to buy that, it's it's just beautiful, beautiful underwear, like handed silk, etc.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.759
Her granddaughter is a model, as I said before.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.519
Her second husband was the manager of the band The Sex Pistols.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:58.880
Fascinating life.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:00.160
Fascinating life.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:02.960
I don't think I can I would love to have met her.
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:08.079
So and Roseme, you're you you'd never been to an exhibition like that before.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:09.440
What were your thoughts?
00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:18.640
You know, just on the exhibition, how it went, your experience of never having been to an exhibition like that and coming away from it.
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:38.319
Well well, I hadn't sought out um something about anything about fashion before because the industry is quite challenging in a lot of ways, which we won't go into on this podcast, but the actual clothes and design, it's an art form of its own, and yeah, it was wonderful to see.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:39.359
What about you?
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:46.559
Well, I felt the same, and especially when I was looking at um the Com de Casson work by Ria Kibulco.
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:54.559
Her work that we saw throughout the way, you could question where is art, where does art start and where does fashion stop?
00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:59.119
And sometimes look at some of the things that walk along a catwalk.
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:00.799
I I should works.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.039
That sounds better than things, doesn't it?
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.720
And and think that they are forms of art.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.960
There's things they're works that people wouldn't necessarily wear.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:11.519
Yeah.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.119
They are for art.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.319
I I'm I I think we can discuss it Rosemary.
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:18.160
I am not a fan of fast fashion.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:24.319
I am and I think fast fashion there's a treatment of models and how they have to look and all of that.
00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.279
But we won't go into these are the two logics.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:28.880
That has changed a lot.
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:38.960
There are a lot of brands now and big brands big well-known brands where if you look at their website they have not only a small person but a plus size person.
00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:49.200
Yeah we all know that yes yeah but um I think that uh fast fashion is something that I am very against.
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:57.039
I think that we should love and treasure whatever we buy and we shouldn't just be buying 50 dresses a week just because they're cheap.
00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:03.519
Yeah good right what are we up to next we finish up what we go to line dancing.
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.880
Give me a break Rosemary it's only 11 o'clock.
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:27.279
Alright Rosemary thank you what is inspiring you oh well I've just done my inspiration haven't I got one you go first well I'm inspired because I am in the middle of making the front half of my studio a gallery of my work.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:59.839
I've got less markets coming up over winter so most Saturdays I am free and uh I'm going to open my studio up to welcome people in and it will be a gallery from I think it'll be from 10 till two on a Saturday I've just got to check the dates times that the lifts close on a Saturday so before I give a final time I had a friend around yesterday and uh because
I do have other friends Rose me not just here and we were converting the front half into a a gallery space.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:17.599
So I'll have my beautiful work there for people to come and have a look at have a feel have a touch and also I think that a market setting is you've got a lot of work on display whereas I think in a gallery setting you can actually look at an individual piece and see it better in your own home.
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:28.240
So it will be interesting and I'm I'm it will be open on July the 4th day and so hopefully people will come and visit me there.
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:37.839
That's great Michelle and you'll have learned from our little podcast we did with with the um other two Dana and Anna how to set it up.
00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:44.799
Well actually Dana was the person who has come and helped me set it up and we had lots of fun and laugh and giggles.
00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:57.920
So it was a great day again I always learn from Dana she has such an amazing eye for seeing how work will look and she's very gentle in how she puts forward her point of view.
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:02.000
So it's really easy to accept it and say yeah I'll do that.
00:25:02.400 --> 00:25:04.079
Yeah it's great that's great.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:39.440
Alright I've found my inspiration which is my new Squarespace website rosemarypatterson.com and I'm doing about two blogs a week which brings me a lot of joy and it's my tiny little voice for my tiny little patch in the world about how we live so if anyone wants to visit I'd love that and there's free there's free downloadable PDFs on certain things like one of the ones I just put up was um talking to kids about what we're winning at with the environment rather than talking in a negative way.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.559
That's fantastic.
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:52.799
Rosemary I have put up a shot of your website so people can see the front page and I um will also make your web your website address is in our closing credits as well.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:53.680
Thank you.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:00.480
That's all right well I will see you all in a fortnight's time and Rosemary I'll see you sooner.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:06.640
Alright bye everyone thank you so much for listening to Shift Stirrers Podcast.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:13.839
If you enjoyed this episode please hit that follow button so you can get notified whenever we we release new content.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:26.480
We'd love to hear feel from you and feel free to reach out to us at theshift stirrers at gmail.com or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below.
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:28.000
We love questions.
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:33.279
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00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:44.480
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00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:51.839
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00:26:52.000 --> 00:27:01.039
Until next time keep stirring the shift just a quick disclaimer Michelle and Rosemary are not experts in any of these discussions today.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:06.559
We present this podcast in the interest of getting you curious to make changes.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.200
Thank you.