บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Shift Stirrers - Mindful Living - Leila Davis

absolutely beautiful, and they arrived quite quickly. 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.639 I thought it was going to take forever to get here from America. 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:15.120 So I made this teapot where I've carved these rivulets into the teapot, and I just enjoyed it so much. 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:16.560 It was so fun. 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:21.599 It's like when you're working with colour like that, it's like you're marinating in the colour. 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:28.800 So if you found a colour that you I've found a colour that I absolutely love, and I could sit with that colour and play with it all day long. 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:31.199 What a great way to stir the shift. 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:31.599 Yes. 00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:36.719 I, I, I, I've just bought the bush, I haven't got them yet, but I've just bought the tools too. 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:37.759 Fantastic. 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:40.080 And I think that they're actually Australian. 00:02:40.159 --> 00:02:41.599 I don't think they're American. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.400 This guy that I've bought them from is definitely in America. 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:45.280 He's in the States. 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:48.960 He was interviewed on the podcast, actually, with um what's that? 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:50.400 The Potters Cast. 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.280 The Potters Cast fellow interviewed him recently. 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.039 And he's in California, I think. 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.439 Well, maybe he's got an outlet in Australia though. 00:02:57.599 --> 00:02:58.400 Yeah, yeah, maybe. 00:02:58.719 --> 00:02:59.360 Yeah, yeah. 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:00.800 I'm I'm excited. 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:02.400 I'm waiting for Molly to get here. 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.120 They're beautiful, they're absolutely lovely. 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:12.240 So, Rosemary, seeing as Layla's told us how she stirs this shift lately, why do we stir the shift? 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:13.280 I do not know. 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:14.159 You tell me. 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:25.199 We stir the shift because what we want to do is we're going to ask you have you ever wanted to make a change in your life and move more from uh career-based to an artisian-based lifestyle? 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.919 Well, if you are, we're the show for you. 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:39.360 We don't have all the answers, but what we do have is lots of people that we interview who have made transitions in their lives and who can help you get curious about what changes you want to make. 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:41.199 So I'm Rosemary Patterson. 00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:42.560 And I'm Michelle Benson. 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:44.159 And we are the shifterers. 00:03:44.400 --> 00:03:45.039 Yes. 00:03:45.280 --> 00:04:00.080 Welcome today, and we are so grateful to have Layla with us, a doctor and psychotherapist who brings against desire for connection and presence to her ceramics and speaking to the observer through form and colour. 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:06.159 Welcome, and we are so grateful to have you sharing your wisdom with our listeners today. 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.240 Thank you so much, Rosemary. 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:09.599 It's delightful to be here. 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:11.360 Thank you so much for asking me. 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:17.279 That's wonderful, and we have got to know you through the daring artist community, Amy Kennedys. 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.079 And so we do know quite a bit about your work. 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:20.800 And thank you. 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:22.240 So we're up to question one. 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:26.879 You came to Australia from England when you were five years old, that's young. 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:32.079 Your mother is from Iraq and you grew surrounded by Arabic paintings. 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:45.120 How did that experience of growing up between cultures, Iraqi heritage, English-born, Australian childhood, how did that all shape who you then became, who you are today? 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:47.279 I think it's absolutely integral. 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:56.160 Those early experiences of childhood just have a huge impact and have well have had a huge impact for me on how I feel myself in the world. 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.319 And it was quite difficult arriving at that very young age. 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:01.839 We'd actually been living in Africa. 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.920 So when I arrived in Australia, I had a very strong African accent. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:13.519 And I remember fronting up to school in Brisbane in 1905 and um just feeling so different. 00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:22.079 Feeling be well, should I say, yeah, I was gonna say being made to feel that I was extremely different and it was very difficult to fit in. 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:27.199 I felt very much like an outsider, and that, yeah, that influenced me for life, really. 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:35.680 And these are the things that I think therapy gives us the opportunity to to revisit and um and soften a little bit, which we'll talk about. 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.480 So I feel very grateful to have had that experience. 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:44.319 And I would say that my mother, she brought these massive Islamic paintings from the Middle East. 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:54.160 She she was not Muslim, but for some reason she brought these enormous paintings, and they were just so impressive in a sense because of their enormous magnitude. 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:56.319 Like one of them covered an entire wall. 00:05:56.480 --> 00:06:01.839 And it was a picture of a Muslim saint slaughtering somebody on horseback. 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:08.000 These two men on horseback, and this saint is slicing his opponent in two with a sword. 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.079 Like it's just the most violent thing. 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:15.439 A beautiful painting, but really just so different from anything you would see. 00:06:15.600 -->

00:06:17.600 But she was also into all kinds of art. 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:26.399 So we grew up surrounded by prints and ceramics, and I think the two of them did silver working and leather working and all kinds of things. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.240 They were, they were lifelong learners. 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:29.680 It was it was fabulous. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:30.879 Wonderful. 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.519 I can imagine the artwork would have been incredibly colourful too, am I right? 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.160 Well, I remember a beautiful blue, one of the paintings. 00:06:38.240 --> 00:06:41.519 There was another smaller painting that was an absolutely beautiful blue. 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:55.040 And the other thing about those paintings is the way they put them together, because there's so there's this one central image, but then they were depicting heaven and hell in the corners of the painting, and you can imagine how they depicted heaven and hell. 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:57.040 It was just so fascinating. 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:11.199 And I was fascinated by the clothes that they wore and the their hair and you know the men with their with their eye makeup and just such a sort of mysterious different world from yeah, Brisbane in 1965. 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:21.199 Yes, yeah, I can imagine when as an immigrant myself, I understand that outsider feeling too, and that I think that it makes you an observer. 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:24.959 And I I do think that's a good quality to have as an artist. 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.600 So I I don't think you can look at that. 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:38.079 I mean, you you do feel like a fish out of water, but that level of being able to observe makes makes you who you are today, which makes you an artist and a ceramicist. 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:39.759 That's a very interesting point. 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.480 Yeah, it's a very interesting point because we do need to observe and we need to be. 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:50.319 It's almost like I feel like I am a transducer for something when I'm making art. 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:52.160 That's probably the best way to put it. 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:57.680 Like I'm receiving and something comes into me and then it comes back out again, changed. 00:07:58.079 --> 00:07:58.399 Yeah. 00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:02.800 So we'll go on to question two, which was life as a doctor. 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:04.399 You became a GP. 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:14.319 What was it like being a female doctor at that time in in the late 70s when there were there were so few women in the field? 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:17.120 Uh it was a very male-dominated profession. 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:19.759 How did that shape your experience? 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:31.279 Yeah, well, by then I don't think and I never felt that it was a I you know, I think I was a little bit um immune to the whole that it's a male-dominated thing. 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:36.320 I'm sure that it affected

me, but I just was a bit like water off a duck's back in some ways. 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:40.240 I knew that the culture, like it was so wonderful to be a doctor. 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:44.159 I felt so grateful to have that training and to be able to do the things we did. 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:53.600 And to be able to work with people and it was such an opportunity to, you know, demonstrate caring and serving and being kind, really. 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:55.120 It was it was wonderful. 00:08:55.360 --> 00:09:02.240 But definitely the culture of hospitals, particularly, was something that I just never got my head around. 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:08.559 I I did my internship in a Catholic hospital in Brisbane, which was also, I mean, I think there were two things there. 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:25.919 So it was the culture of the hospital, but also this intense culture of Catholicism, which was in the hospital, which I knew nothing about because I grew up in a staunchly atheist environment, a very mixed religious background from my parents, but neither of them were believers in any ways. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:33.519 All I knew was that I needed to get out of hospitals and get out of that intense experience as as quickly as possible, which I did. 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:44.480 And that's why I did general practice, because I knew it was going to be one way that I could create more of an environment that I was comfortable in, and that I could also do it part-time. 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:46.639 Like that was so important for me. 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:54.799 Yeah, the hospital work would be long and arduous, I think, and especially if you're working sometimes long shifts. 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:55.679 Yes, yes. 00:09:55.919 --> 00:10:01.919 I mean, it was a little bit better than it was funny because I actually went and worked in England and they were still doing 24-hour shifts. 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:03.759 We weren't doing that at that point. 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:08.559 Like I started working in 1987 and they'd already done away with those overnight shifts. 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.120 So when I went to England, it was like taking a step back. 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:12.639 But somehow you survive. 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:20.159 And actually, I part of me really enjoyed being pushed to that degree, like being really pushed to see what are you made of. 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.960 Like, you know, there were things about it that were actually quite amazing. 00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:32.159 I can imagine that you would have gone into that Catholic hospital and not realized how different culturally it would be for you. 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.960 Oh, hundred percent, hundred percent. 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:37.600 Yeah, it was really such an eye-opener. 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:44.879 In some ways, I feel like I had a very sheltered upbringing because I didn't have any exposure to religion at all. 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:45.840 Wow. 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:50.879 And now you've talked about carers' neurosis. 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:53.360 I was a teacher, that's a caring role. 00:10:53.600 --> 00:11:03.120 And could you talk us through your thoughts on that and how that sort of affected you in your work and your sense of self? 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:08.720 Yeah, look, that term the carer's neurosis, it it's a little bit of a harsh term, really. 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.120 But I haven't heard of it before. 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:16.799 No, and it's a phrase that I heard maybe two or three years into my psychotherapy training. 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:24.240 And when I heard it, it just something in me was just so switched on because I I thought, oh my god, that that's what I've been doing. 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.279 And and I just want to explain it like there is nothing wrong with caring. 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:28.799 Caring is a wonderful thing. 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:34.879 Like I said, I feel very grateful to have been able to, you know, care for my patients, care for my clients. 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:41.440 It was a wonderful way to be able to express love, compassion, and kindness and to make a difference in people's lives. 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:46.559 You know, teachers and lawyers and accountants and dentists, we're all caring. 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:48.159 And uh it's brilliant. 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.320 Like that's how what makes the world go round. 00:11:50.480 --> 00:12:02.399 In fact, in my in this lovely golden age that I'm in now, where I'm no longer either as a therapist or a doctor, I'm sort of casting about for ways that I can serve or ways that I can care. 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:18.320 I think the big thing about this is when I heard about the carer's neurosis, I realized that it described me and that my caring was coming from a place that was not entirely unconscious, but largely unconscious, out of awareness. 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:29.360 So there was, they were like these in Gestalt, we call them introjects, these ideas that I had swallowed whole without really chewing them up or thinking about them, and that they then were guiding my behavior. 00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:37.840 So I could say that in my work with clients later on, this became a way of talking to them about what are the rules that you're living your life by. 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:44.320 There are often unconscious rules that I'll talk about myself, that I was living my life by. 00:12:44.559 --> 00:12:50.240 I must be kind, I must be quiet, I must be gentle, I must be calm, I must help others. 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:51.759 None of those are bad things. 00:12:51.919 --> 00:13:02.799 They're all really great things, but when they're coming out of me in an unconscious way, it can lead to just a lot of resentment and burnout, basically. 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:06.399 Whereas once it's a conscious, then I have a choice. 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:15.039 Like then I become an agent in my life, and I get to choose

to create a balance between how much I care for others and how much I care for myself. 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:24.720 I mean, the whole concept of self-care was just something I had no idea about until I started my second life journey as a therapist. 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:30.879 So that, you know, and the people that I worked with, the clients that I worked with were very much on my journey. 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:44.159 So they were but I chose to work with women who were very much like me, professional women who had kind of grown up in this with this idea of, I mean, sometimes it comes from growing up in a family that has its problems, right? 00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:48.240 And so the child becomes the glue that's trying to hold everything together. 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:54.159 And I could definitely say that that was my experience, trying to make myself into the glue that held everything together. 00:13:54.320 --> 00:13:58.960 And and you know, and that's another wonderful thing that children really care about their parents. 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:03.279 We we need our parents in order to survive, and so we'll do anything to look after them. 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:10.159 But to to bring all of that into consciousness and actually start making choices and realize that I had a right to exist as well. 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:16.480 I had a right to breathe the air, I had a, you know, to exist and that I could also take care of myself. 00:14:16.559 --> 00:14:19.279 That was an absolute revolution for me. 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:30.960 Yes, and you had caring in two places that the type of your work was caring, and as a family, you've just sort of described the caring part of that. 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.679 So you didn't get a break really from caring. 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.399 And and isn't that the case for so many women? 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:52.320 So many women are in a similar situation, and I think often there's a lot of anger and resentment around that when those behaviours are unconscious, and once we start realizing that we actually do have a choice, we actually do have a choice. 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:55.919 That the that is a revolution, it's a huge change. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:57.759 Wonderful, yeah. 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:08.960 I'm just going to relate to that because I know when my children learned to drive and left home, and there was a few months there where I I was lost because I didn't have anyone to care for. 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:29.440 So um I wanted to talk to you because in our first interview that we did with you, you gave us the powerful image of you're in a cage, but the door was actually opened. 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:42.320 And I I call this, I've I've always called this the golden cage because you're in professions where you're comfortable, you're providing the income that you need for your family and your lifestyle. 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:44.240 And you know, what was it? 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:49.759 My my

view is that it's hard to walk through that door because you're giving up all this security you have around you. 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:51.600 But what was your view about that? 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:54.080 Yeah, everything you just said, absolutely right. 00:15:54.159 --> 00:16:09.919 And I think we all, you know, we all have a version of this, but you know, my sense was it's the sunk cost fallacy, isn't it, that I'd spent all this time and all this energy passing these exams and like you know, getting through medicine was not an easy feat for me. 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:17.919 And uh and I and then doing my intern years and getting all the training after graduation was also not easy. 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.799 And so I think I just sort of hung on to it thinking, well, this is something I've worked really hard for. 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:33.600 And although I never really identified as a doctor, like it was always something apart from me, and I always worked part-time, but it was just something I knew how to do, and I could do it fairly well. 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:44.639 And you know, I remember my neighbor once when I first started work as an intern, I had this lovely neighbor in West End who was just a very interesting man, and he said to me, You're an educated barbarian. 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.799 You know nothing about anything else, nothing. 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:56.320 And I was thinking that that's one of the reasons that kept me in medicine, that I was all my education had been to become a doctor, and I knew nothing else. 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:57.840 I didn't have any other skills really. 00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:59.679 I couldn't have done anything else. 00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:08.480 So until I had another training and another skill, that was when I could start to think about, oh, maybe I could change the way that I do this. 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.519 I mean, in some ways, if I'd had a bit more imagination, I could have niched even within medicine. 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:22.319 And people do, there are people who are much more proactive than I was to get out of general practice and niche into one particular area of medicine. 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:30.000 And I think that can be very rewarding because then you you can really know everything, go deeply about that one area. 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:35.680 Whereas in general practice, your spread so thinly that it's um it's always difficult. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:40.480 So, yeah, I mean, all those fears, financial identity, what would other people think? 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.279 How could I let go of all this safety and security? 00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:47.359 And uh, it feels ungrateful, you know, there's just so many things. 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:52.400 And I think maybe I did identify more than I realized with being a doctor. 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.559 So then Yeah, I think it's it's a very, very common feeling. 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:06.079 We had a guest on recently who said that she was very good at what she was a research scientist and she was very good at what she did, but it gave her no joy. 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:08.240 Yeah, that is exactly right. 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:16.640 In fact, I would say that uh because I think one of the questions we talked about in that initial interview was how did I know when was the time to go? 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:24.319 I knew the time to go had come when I I just felt so dead inside. 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.200 I felt like it was eating my soul. 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:33.599 And I used to ride my bicycle into town to go to work, and that ride into town was always such an exciting journey. 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:43.359 I sort of loved getting on my bike and riding home, and I got to the point where even riding my bike into town wasn't enough to goad me into going. 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:49.680 Well, I had a job where I didn't have a voice and my skills weren't used, and I couldn't make that happen. 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:54.880 But when I left, it took me a while to find out that was actually really stressful. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:56.799 Like I didn't know when I was in it. 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.640 Yes, yes, absolutely. 00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:04.960 We don't realise like we're like um we're literally like the frog in that in the in the top that's being petered up. 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:05.759 Yeah. 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:13.359 So what a wonderful thing to have gone from GP to psychotherapist and then to coaching women through their own transitions. 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:22.240 And I guess this question is sort of asking you, what did you learn about working with women and helping them transform their lives? 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:27.519 Oh look, I I look back on that 15 years as some of the best years of my life. 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:48.400 And really, you know, what the whole reason that I went into that well-being business and running women's groups and seeing people one-to-one and taking them on a retreat in Bali was that I felt that I had had such a wonderful journey myself in the over the four years that I studied Distart therapy, and I knew how much it had liberated me. 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:56.799 Like I felt so much more able to choose, so much more like an agent in my own life, so much less like it was being done to me. 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.519 I blamed my family less. 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:01.359 I blamed my husband who left. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:06.240 It's it gave us an opportunity to really sort of fix our relationship in many ways. 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:10.559 And so working with other women was just such a gift. 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:15.920 It was just delightful because I knew that journey so, so, so well. 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:20.720 And I could, I was just a few steps ahead, really, just a few steps ahead. 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:26.640 And so many of them were even more deeply mired in the issues that I had had.

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:32.720 Like they were working full-time, they were, you know, even much more stressful jobs than than I had been in. 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.160 And they really didn't know how to self-care. 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:49.200 I mean, one of the fun things was we would go to Bali, and I remember suggesting that we should all go for a massage, one massage, and I booked into this wonderful place out in the rice fields, and we all walked up there and had this wonderful massage. 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.720 And then after that, we kind of looked at each other and went, we could go again. 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.480 Like, why only once? 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:55.359 We could do it again. 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:06.640 The point where we would go to Bali for a week, and the first thing we would do is go for a massage, and then we just have a massage every single day, and it was absolutely fantastic. 00:21:06.799 --> 00:21:10.559 It was one of the biggest shifts that I remember, actually. 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:22.559 And people really shifted, like they to get it to have a week off from a busy life is a fantastic opportunity to reflect on what you're doing and how you're doing it, and how you might like things to be different. 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.000 Yeah, wonderful. 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.319 Having that space, red space. 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:27.119 That's right. 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:37.839 So you've talked about the zone of genius from the book The Big Leap and the difference between being excellent at something and being in your genius zone. 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.319 Your genius lay outside of medicine. 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:46.240 How did you know and what did it take you to let go of excellence to find genius? 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:51.119 Yeah, that's a great book, The Big Leap, by Guy Hendricks, and I Gay Hendricks, and I really recommend it. 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.759 You've you've inspired me to watch On the Bull. 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:54.799 I'm halfway through. 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:57.279 Yeah, it's a very good book. 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:07.039 I I think one thing I want to say is you know, I Remember reading a book by John who was it by Jack Cornfield called Finding a Path with Heart. 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.400 And I read it years ago, probably in my early 30s. 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:19.359 And the one thing that I retained from reading that book was he said, often it means not finding a new path, but finding heart in the path that you're on. 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:20.000 Wow. 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:25.920 And in some ways that's kind of what I did because my my shift wasn't right out of medicine. 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:31.359 It was still in a like I was still seeing clients one-to-one doing psychotherapy with them. 00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:38.720 And everything that I had done in the 25 or 30 years of seeing clients as a GP, I brought to that relationship. 00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.319 So, you know, it was I wasn't starting out of the blue. 00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:57.279 I I guess what I realized is that my zone of genius lay in creating a safe relationship with people, a safe space and a relationship within which change could happen. 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:03.759 Because I didn't see myself, and in Gestart we talk about this a lot, that the therapist is not a change agent, right? 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:13.519 We have this beautiful idea of, it's called the paradoxical theory of change, where the change doesn't happen from a place of I want to be like that. 00:23:13.680 --> 00:23:17.599 Change happens when we can fully step into who we are. 00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:22.000 And when we fully step into who we are, change happens automatically. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:38.960 And it goes back to what I was saying before about when I fully step into who I am and I have a lot of awareness about my behavior, about my conditioning, about what's driving me, then I can start to choose how I actually live my life instead of living from these unconscious, conditioned responses. 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:40.400 Does that make sense? 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:41.039 Yes. 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, it does. 00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:45.839 I think I'll use the heading mindful living for this interview. 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:46.799 Do you like that? 00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:50.000 Because that's really why you're living in a very mindful way. 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:51.680 Yeah, a lot more mindful. 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.640 I mean, there's always the journey always continues, right? 00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:03.279 Like I still, and I think this journey with Amy has just shown me how wow, I mean, I've come up against things in Evolve that were huge, just huge. 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.680 And I thought, how did I manage to avoid dealing with this for all these years, right? 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:09.599 And now here I am, bang up against it. 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:11.279 Yeah, fantastic. 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:12.000 Michelle. 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:12.559 Okay. 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:14.640 Your turn, Rosemary. 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:17.759 So transition to clay four years ago. 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:23.119 Uh, four years ago, a friend invited you to a community studio and you discovered clay. 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:24.720 Tell us about that transition. 00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:29.519 How did ceramics enter your life and when did you know it was more than just a hobby? 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:39.359 Well, you know, this question made me really think about that because my friend did invite me, but I think actually the first thing she did was she gave us a little piece of ceramic. 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:43.200 She gave my partner a little piece of ceramic, and it was so beautiful. 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:46.559 And I remember looking at it and and just being so struck by it. 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.279 And then she said to me, Oh, why don't you come down

to the ceramic studio? 00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.559 There's a community studio. 00:24:50.720 --> 00:24:58.559 And so I think I went down there with this idea that I would like to create something beautiful, like the thing that she gave us. 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.720 And so it was very casual the way that she she she invited me. 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:10.400 And of course, there were lots of other people there, so many people at different stages, which um I think was very helpful because I had a lot of negative voices in my head. 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:27.440 Like, unlike the transition from medicine to psychotherapy, starting in a visual arts practice was a completely new thing, and I'm gonna say is a completely new thing because I still don't feel like I really have fully got two feet in this world. 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:28.880 It felt very foreign. 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:30.960 I had a lot of negative voices in my head. 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:34.480 You know, I remembered a lot about what my mother had done in the past. 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.759 In fact, I have a beautiful ceramic bull that she made. 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:51.359 And and I remember her taking me to a sculpture workshop when I was quite young and how I enjoyed that, and how you know, I think in the journey of psychotherapy, it's about kind of healing ourselves. 00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:57.599 And the reason that I stopped working as a psychotherapist is I got to this point where I thought, I don't need this anymore. 00:25:58.079 --> 00:25:59.279 I feel healed enough. 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:06.240 Like I'm never fully healed, but I feel healed enough that I don't need to sit in this place with these people anymore. 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:09.279 I don't need to make this the center point of my life. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:12.559 And so the next step is about self-expression. 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:20.960 The next step after healing is self-expression, and clay was just a perfect way of expressing myself. 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:23.039 And so it's been such a wild journey. 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:25.119 I, you know, I'm very plodding. 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:30.559 I love the wheel, and I just want to learn how to throw beautiful pieces on the wheel. 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.640 And when I start something, I don't give up. 00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.960 I just do it over and over and over and over, and finally it starts to develop. 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.079 But yeah, it's it's a work in progress, I'd say. 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:45.519 And for our listeners, have a listen and have a look at uh Layla on Instagram. 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:54.720 You can see how your work inspires you, Layla, how you're pleased with your work and how beautiful it is, and it's a part of you. 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:56.079 So that's thank you. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.039 That's very kind. 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:10.480 I mean, not everything that comes out of the kiln is a delight, but sometimes when things do come out and they're and they're good, yeah, it's exciting, and and I enjoy talking about them and talking about the challenges in making them. 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:18.480 And you know, ceramics is technically such an interesting, interesting thing because there are so many different techniques out there that we can develop. 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.880 Yes, you can go down the windy path so many different ways. 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:23.759 Exactly. 00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.920 There's no undo button. 00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:30.640 There is, there's lots of undo buttons in ceramics. 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:39.039 Yeah, you can make patches and things, I guess, but um for my digital art, I use the undo Yeah, the undo button. 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:41.359 That's sorry, I didn't understand what you were saying. 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:45.599 Sometimes there's an undo button, sometimes not, but then there's always the reclaim bucket. 00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:47.359 The reclaim bucket. 00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:51.279 There's the coffee grinder. 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:57.599 I s I am actually collecting this and coffee grinding it to make grog to go into my porcelain. 00:27:57.759 --> 00:28:00.480 And so now I have like a pile of biscuits. 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.680 So that goes back in and gets recycled back in too. 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.680 Yeah, there is there is there is you just learn them as you go along. 00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.200 You learn them as you go along. 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:13.599 I I naturally wear a mask when I'm doing the coffee grinding and stuff. 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.279 Yeah, it's true. 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:17.359 I very rarely throw anything away. 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.400 I like to reclaim as much as I can and reuse. 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:21.519 Absolutely. 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:25.359 Yeah, I just recently bought a pad mill, it was the best thing I've ever bought. 00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.519 Fantastic. 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:31.440 Yes, it takes takes the hard work out of reclaiming. 00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:32.640 Yeah. 00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:39.519 So you've talked about I we are up to question eight, am I right? 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:41.759 Right on the money. 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.680 Uh we've talked about being, and I've got my questions over here. 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:47.359 This is why I'm looking over here right now. 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:53.599 But we've talked about being inspired by beauty and the excitement of making something beautiful to your eye. 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:56.240 What does the creative freedom feel like? 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:03.039 And can you tell us how the different creative freedom feels from being a doctor or a psychotherapist? 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.440 And I know you've sort of half-answered that. 00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:09.920 And at this stage, we will put up some pieces of your work so that people can see them. 00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:13.119

Um so if you could talk us through, like your work is beautiful. 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:25.920 I love your forms that have the goddess, what is they call the goddess shape, or it's got a couple of shapes within the the vase and your simple but very poignant images that you put on there. 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:27.839 And I just love those. 00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:28.960 So thank you. 00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:33.279 Yeah, look, it's so different from being a doctor or being a psychotherapist. 00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:41.920 And I guess, you know, when I talked about self-care, I would say that, you know, being having a studio feels so indulgent, and I'm so grateful to have it. 00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:44.799 Yeah, it feels like a sacred space in here. 00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:50.960 Like I've I've made it, you know, like in the way that it's uh a a beautiful place to sit. 00:29:51.119 --> 00:30:01.680 And I've got one end of the studio which is kind of the working end, and another end where I can sit comfortably and read books and look at things and write, and it just feels so indulgent. 00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:04.079 It's like, you know, Virginia Wolf. 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.039 Talking about a room of one's own. 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:08.000 It really feels like that. 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:18.880 Whereas I had a con consultation room downstairs in the bottom of the house, and that really didn't feel like it because in the consultation room, other people came and it was about other people. 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:22.000 Whereas here, the studio, it's all about me. 00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:27.519 It's all about what's my internal process, and that sounds terrifically selfish, even as I say that. 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:28.960 I I sort of feel selfish. 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:33.759 But maybe in some ways to be an artist, I need to be selfish. 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:42.480 I need to give myself time and focus on my own internal story and my own internal space and see what wants to emerge. 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:44.559 And the end result is not selfish. 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:54.000 The end result is a piece of work that hopefully will communicate something to another person that will excite them, that will light them up. 00:30:54.160 --> 00:31:01.200 And that's really, I guess, what I'm looking for in my work is how does a piece make connection with other people? 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:03.039 So it feels very different. 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:05.599 And yes, it is about giving myself permission. 00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:07.119 And it's just such a quiet space. 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:18.720 It's funny because since the studio has been finished, which is only recently, my husband keeps coming to the door and wanting to come in, and I'm just like, Out, out, terrible. 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:20.640 Yeah, it is a sacred space. 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.000 Uh, I hope you have a couch for sitting and contemplating. 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:26.559 I have an armchair, that's right, yes. 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.519 And a beautiful table. 00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:32.640 You do need to be because thinking about your work is a form of your work. 00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:40.160 Um, I'm always reminded of the Big Bang where they're standing in front of the board and they do nothing but they're looking at the board for hours and hours on end. 00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:41.920 And it seems a bit like that. 00:31:42.160 --> 00:32:09.519 You know, you you just like you need to be in a zone and you need to be thinking about what you're creating and surrounding yourself with your influences, whether they be something that you've made that you're not 100% happy with, that you've saved from the disc firing and kept, you know, looking at how can I improve this, or whether it's something that you know you um you have that from your past that's really inspiring you. 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:15.599 And I I think that that collection is very important and looking at that and thinking about that. 00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.440 Yeah, and it's lovely to have space to actually put the pieces out. 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.799 Like I rotate them, I put things out so that I can look at them. 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:26.720 Because sometimes when something comes out of the kiln, I'm like, I'm not so sure about that. 00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:32.640 And then I leave it out for a while and I start looking at it and going, wow, that's actually really interesting. 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.279 Like the way that does that is really interesting. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.160 And so it takes a little while, yeah. 00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.920 And it's I just feel delighted to have them around me. 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:55.200 And there was a beautiful moment I was preparing for an exhibition recently, and I had all of those goddess vases out on the table, and I came in first thing in the morning, and it was like walking into the to this, I don't know, some sort of temple with the priestesses. 00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:56.640 It was so interesting. 00:32:56.799 --> 00:32:58.559 It's like they were alive. 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:09.359 Yeah, well, they are like you've brought that clay to life, and it's just like Rosemary does with her her books, she brings the drawings to life. 00:33:09.759 --> 00:33:11.119 You've brought that clay to life. 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:16.319 And I going back to an earlier part of the conversation, I don't think you found clay. 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:27.279 I think clay finds you, and and it is something that you know you need that, and so it comes and finds you, which is really when I listen to you talking, that's what's happened. 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.960 That's a lovely way to put it. 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:35.119 I I do feel so incredibly grateful, so incredibly grateful to have something to do with my hands. 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.039 I think that is a really important thing, and it's something I've missed all my life.

00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:49.039 I mean, I I played music, so I played guitar and so on, but to have something to do with my hands and actually have something to see at the end of it is a very like it's lovely playing music with people. 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:50.640 I absolutely love that too. 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.480 But to have a piece at the end of it is just so amazing. 00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:05.279 And I'm reminded of that story in one of Charles Dickens' books, The Tale of Two Cities, where the heroine's father is put in prison and he's in prison for years and years. 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:07.599 And while he's in prison, he starts making shoes. 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:10.480 And it's the way that he survives is by making shoes. 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:15.360 And they go to Paris and they rescue him and they bring him back to London, and he's perfectly fine. 00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:22.000 But when things get tough, when he gets stressed, he gets his shoemaking gear out and he starts making shoes. 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:23.760 And I so get that. 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.920 It's like, yeah, this is something. 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.679 The hand and the head and the heart are so connected. 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.159 Yeah. 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:38.400 Well, wow, you would know this better than me, but the uh the majority, uh, there's a large percentage of our nerves in our hands, isn't there? 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:47.519 So it makes sense that that it connects to your brain and it's connecting to your heart in the feeling of wellness and and where you are. 00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:52.880 So that that to me makes even though I don't from a doctor's point of view, it must make a lot more sense. 00:34:53.119 --> 00:35:00.880 Yeah, no, I don't I really don't know, but there's something that really creates well-being from creating something and from working with hands. 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:03.440 Do you find that, Rosemary, with your drawings and your books? 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:07.039 You must I mean it must be wonderful to see your book when it's finished. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.559 Yes, I love to see my books when I get them in the mail. 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:11.039 Yes. 00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:16.159 So Rosemary and I realize we do something the same and we didn't know it was the same. 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:21.119 And what Rosemary calls it flow drawing, I just call it like just in my state. 00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:21.599 State. 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.440 Do you do you do something like that? 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:27.440 And this I this is not a question list, it's just a question out in the wild. 00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:30.800 We actually, both of us, use our pencils a lot. 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:36.719 For me, I when I'm at the market, so I'm just flow drawing, which is a word I've picked up and rising. 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:38.480 I wish I did it more. 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:42.559 I'm actually working on trying to get myself into the habit of drawing. 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:48.000 I've surrounded myself with visual arts diaries and pencils and pens and all kinds of things. 00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:55.519 I have a huge resistance to it, and I know that that's it's another layer of conditioning coming coming off. 00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:59.360 This sense of I can't draw, I can't paint, I don't have a sense of colour. 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:04.320 And I know that the way to move through these conditioning statements is to make them louder. 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.639 When they're getting louder and I'm really hearing them, that's an opportunity for them to just move through. 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:13.599 And so I've actually started playing with coloured slips at the moment, and I made these coloured slips. 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:15.760 I just sat down, forced myself to make them. 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:19.920 And they're beautiful colours, blue, greens, and you can mix up the colour that you want. 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:27.039 And I made a porcelain teapot, and I thought, right, I'm putting this slip on this teapot, and I just was like, oh my god, it's terrifying. 00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:32.559 But I put the slip on and it's just such a beautiful colour, and I had a vague idea of what I wanted to do. 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:40.079 I was actually journaling and I drew a pot and then drew some designs on it three or four times, and then thought, oh yeah, I'll just do that one. 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:41.119 Just a really simple thing. 00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:47.840 Like I can't, I'm not like you, Rosemary, I can't, you know, draw a thing, but I love abstract expressionism. 00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:57.840 I love abstract shapes, and I and so I thought, just get on there with your carving tool and carve something and then scraffito it out, and yeah, and it looks amazing. 00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:03.599 Like I did it this morning, and I'm I'm still excited at having done it because it sort of took took shape. 00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:05.360 You know, taking shape in front of you. 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:05.679 Yeah. 00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.679 And I don't know what it will be like at the end of the day, but it's exciting. 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.159 Gives it sort of effects. 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:13.599 Oh, women's already, yeah. 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:18.159 But I might take some this afternoon and put them on Instagram. 00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:18.400 Yeah. 00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:22.559 It's because it's always good to show people how things take shape. 00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:39.760 Yeah, I I I'm trying to just to not just put photos of the perfect finished object, but to put photos of this is what it looked like at this stage, and then oh, it kind of went downhill and I wasn't sure that it was going to really happen, and this is what it looked like at that stage, and then I managed to do this, and and now here it is. 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:43.599 And I, you know, it's it's

good to show that process. 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:49.360 Because I think what I'd really want to do is invite other people to their creative spirit. 00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:51.360 And we're all creative, aren't we? 00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:52.480 This is the biggest fallacy. 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:59.119 I used to think that you had to be talented to do art, that only people with talent could do art. 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.639 And I definitely thought I was not talented at visual art. 00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:13.599 And now I realize that it's just about finding an outlet and really mining that scene, like sticking with it, thinking about it, looking at things, watching endless pottery videos. 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:18.960 I mean, God, my partner actually goes, That's it, no more pottery videos tonight. 00:38:20.400 --> 00:38:20.960 Close that. 00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:22.559 Because I got to be obsessed. 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:24.239 I got quite obsessed. 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:24.719 Yeah. 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:29.519 Well, Michelle, we're up to question nine now, which talks about hard lessons. 00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:42.719 So, Leila, as a doctor, you would have experienced a kind of vulnerability, but as an artist, there's another type where you have wonderful, successful exhibitions, your work is well valued and bought. 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:49.199 And then sometimes, as our research scientists told us, you can take your stuff to the market and not sell a thing. 00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:56.400 Could you talk us through how you manage in your head um things that are well, times when you're a little bit vulnerable? 00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:04.320 Well, look, this is such a good question because I think it's a really major part of the personal development that's required as an artist. 00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:09.119 And I was chatting with someone recently who said that her daughter wants to be an actress. 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:13.360 So she goes to acting classes and asks the acting teacher, what should I do? 00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:16.639 And the guy said, learn how to hear no. 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:18.320 Oh, beautiful. 00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:20.639 That's such a isn't that a beautiful thing? 00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:21.280 Yeah. 00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:23.440 We all need to learn how to hear no. 00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:33.760 So I really that really landed for me, and I thought, yeah, I need to learn how to hear no because I can't make that no mean my work's no good. 00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:34.159 Yeah. 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:34.719 Right? 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:39.199 I need to really find that sense of value within myself. 00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:49.840 Like this is such a piece of personal growth that my work as an extension of me has its own intrinsic value, whether other people even like it or not, let alone want to take it home with them. 00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:50.960 And I'm not doing this. 00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:56.480 I'm fortunate to be not having to do this as a job for money to actually make money. 00:39:56.719 --> 00:39:59.440 So that's a release and a relief. 00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:08.800 But it still feels very vulnerable to put my work out there and as I have done in the last three exhibitions, actually, sold nothing. 00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:14.719 So I've I've tried to look at it from lots of different angles, and you know, what lesson is there in this for me? 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:21.679 And I think the lesson is what I just said, that I just need to learn how to hear no and not make it mean something personal. 00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:22.960 Yeah, I love that. 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:25.119 So it's good, isn't it? 00:40:25.360 --> 00:40:26.800 So yeah. 00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:32.880 My my first market I ever went to, I didn't sell anything, and I came home and I was devastated. 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:34.639 So I do understand. 00:40:34.960 --> 00:40:40.639 And I my stuff sells quite well at the markets, but yeah, it was I know how you feel. 00:40:40.719 --> 00:40:41.760 It's devastating. 00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:44.800 Anything, you know, you stab yourself because they're your little children. 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.760 You're a my little babies. 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:51.119 I also think, and I and I had a coach who used to talk about this. 00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:56.559 She said, you want to find your no from clients as much as you want to find the yes. 00:40:56.719 --> 00:40:56.960 Right? 00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:04.239 Of course, we're looking for the yes, but it's actually also very good to get the no because if if we're not getting the no, then we're just being vanilla. 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:06.639 Like, and the last thing I want to do is be vanilla. 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:18.480 I want to be, whether I'm doing psychotherapy, like I really niched hard in psychotherapy so that some of my clients used to say, when I read your posts on LinkedIn, I feel like you've been looking through my window, my bedroom window. 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:26.400 Because I needed people to recognize if you are this, this, and this, I can help you with that, that, and that. 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:28.960 And we can go there, there, and there, right? 00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:32.000 Because I that's what I wanted to do. 00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:33.599 And it's the same with the pots. 00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:35.760 Like, I don't, I mean, I I know what sells. 00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:39.760 Black and white stuff sells, pictures of birds and flowers sells. 00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:41.119 I'm not interested in that. 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:42.480 I'm not interested in doing that. 00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:44.639 Like I'm not interested in meeting the market. 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:49.599 I'm interested, I'm interested in what wants to come out of me, what I want to bring forth. 00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.840 That thing about whatever's within me, if I don't bring it forth, it will kill me. 00:41:54.000 -->

00:41:55.119 Well, look at Van Gogh. 00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.960 He never sold a thing when he was alive. 00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.199 I actually did think of that. 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:00.400 I actually did think of that. 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:05.440 And I've also got a lovely friend who makes beautiful work and goes to all the markets and sells really well. 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:12.239 And she told me how she went to a market once and the only thing she sold was this really ugly bowl. 00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:15.440 She said, I almost didn't take it because it's so ugly. 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:21.599 And so now when I make something and it comes out of the kiln and I'm like, I don't really like that, I instantly think someone will. 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:22.400 Yes. 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:23.599 Someone will love it. 00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:24.960 Yeah, yes. 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:29.599 And I do think that like to coin a phrase, the no's make you grow. 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:30.400 They do. 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:36.800 Yeah, the the yeses don't make you grow, they make you stay in your lane, whereas the no's make you grow. 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:38.800 That is so so true. 00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.679 So so true. 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:42.559 What a beautiful lesson, lesson for our listeners. 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:44.719 We all need to be able to hear no, don't we? 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:47.039 In various different walks of life. 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:49.280 And not stab ourselves. 00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:53.280 Not go down the terrible drain. 00:42:54.159 --> 00:42:54.400 Yes. 00:42:56.079 --> 00:43:01.360 Well, and Catherine Devany says what you think of your own writing doesn't matter. 00:43:01.599 --> 00:43:03.760 What other people think of your writing doesn't matter. 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:06.159 So that's just exactly what you're saying, Leila. 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:08.559 Yeah, it's in the process, isn't it, Rosemary? 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:10.079 Like it's actually in the process. 00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:15.920 I know that when I'm making, I'm delighted and I'm having fun and I'm in this really lovely place. 00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:17.119 And really that's it. 00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:27.519 And actually, another Buddhist friend of mine said, you know, the true artist doesn't stop to look at the thing they've made, they're just interested in the process, which is a pretty zen way of looking at it. 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:28.960 I would like to get to that point. 00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.519 I'm a bit human when it comes to that. 00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:32.719 Yeah, we are. 00:43:33.440 --> 00:43:35.199 We are okay. 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:40.719 So our final question today, Layla, is um legacy or a superpower? 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:45.039 And I know before you said I think you want to do the legacy question, am I right? 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:45.840 Yes. 00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:46.880 Question. 00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:47.519 Yeah. 00:43:47.760 --> 00:44:03.199 The legacy question is is when you look at the body of your work you're creating, not just in ceramics, but in the lives you've touched as a doctor and a psychotherapist coach, and now you're art, what what legacy are you building? 00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:07.679 What do you hope, you know, at the end of the day, what do you hope your work says to the world? 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.679 Yeah, you know, I really love that image. 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.719 There's an image somewhere on social media of um how we ignite each other. 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:21.840 It's like a picture of someone who's got a candle lit and walks up to someone who doesn't have their candle lit and lights their candle. 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:31.760 And that's really the image that I'd like to bring in here because I would hope that not just my art but the way I am in the world it ignites other people. 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:36.239 And I know I am ignited by the way other people bring themselves in the world. 00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:38.960 Like it's a very powerful thing. 00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:44.880 I even recently I had a chat with a guy on the phone because I'm trying to build a shed on a piece of land and it's all very difficult. 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:51.360 And this guy was just so helpful so kind so he was just lovely. 00:44:51.519 --> 00:44:52.159 He was just lovely. 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:55.280 And I kept saying to him thank you so much for your enthusiasm. 00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:55.920 That was it. 00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:12.960 He was more enthusiastic about the project than I was and it really lit me up and I thought wow like I don't think I am going to go ahead with this project but if I did I'd go with you simply because what you're bringing as a human being is something that I really need. 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:18.960 And so that's what I hope that I do like whether as a doctor or a psychotherapist or or art. 00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:35.760 And I think part of part of the gift that we give through art is that like I said before we're all artists we all can create and so many times I've had discussions with people at exhibitions or in the gallery where I sometimes show about what they would like to do, what they would like to create. 00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:41.440 And when they see art it can be very exciting to then go and create themselves. 00:45:41.679 --> 00:45:53.280 It can be that that step that next step someone's looking for a bit like I said at the beginning that a friend of ours gave us a piece of her ceramic and I looked at it and I thought that's so beautiful I'd like to make something like that. 00:45:53.440 --> 00:46:03.920 So I'd like my my art to also ignite and incite people to want to create to use their time well. 00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:39.679 I mean I just think the society we live in it's oh it's so ill it's just so ill isn't it like we're encouraged to consume and consume and consume when actually what lights

us up is to create and create and create right but we don't have often there is no method no way that we can create whether you're creating a piece of pottery or creating a workshop or creating a retreat or creating a song or piece of music like we inherently need to create and it lights us up right I know that you guys are creators I'm imagining it lights you up. 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:42.960 Why do you create Rosemary and Govest? 00:46:43.199 --> 00:47:02.079 Well sort of because we have to I am doing a book on homelessness it's sort of because I have to yeah I also think about and I'll see trees on my walks and then I'll see them in my that's off my walk you know and beautiful gum trees and things like that. 00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:10.639 And so yeah I guess it's having a voice and a story to tell and um yeah just because it it feels good. 00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:27.039 Yeah that's lovely and I love that idea that you know when we're making a piece of art we're capturing a little piece of what we see and presenting it to people so that they see it too whether it's a tree an animal at the moment I'm working on a whole series that I think is about water. 00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:30.320 And I'm really excited about that because I think water's really important. 00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:34.159 Yes I'm looking forward to seeing that one. 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:37.360 Yeah I agree because it's it's within me. 00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:41.840 It's a it I have to express what's within me and and to bring it out. 00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:55.599 My ethos is I want to I my one of the things I want to live I I want to leave joy through the touching and feeling of objects and I have had people say to me that they have a little peace of mind and they it sits on their table and it brings them joy. 00:47:55.760 --> 00:48:10.239 But it's it's within me it's I have to get it out and I'm currently working on a project that has been in my head for 25 years that I'm actually starting to get out and I I think I'm finally resolving it as to how to get it out. 00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:13.039 And it's it's so important to me. 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:14.960 I'm so passionate about it. 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:29.760 So it it's it's we were talking to a lady called Donna just recently and she was saying that yeah you have to get it out and then you move on to the next thing to the next but you have to get that out of you has to come out. 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:51.679 And somehow you know when we actually let the idea grow and give it roots and water it and put it in the sunlight it's like we're revering it we're making it sacred right like I I haven't thought about water really but I made this pot and I thought oh it's like that blue is the blue green of water and I'm making ripples and then I started thinking about water and how I love water. 00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:59.199 It's joyful oceanic joy it ripples it laughs it dances it stings you know there's so much to enjoy about water. 00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:08.559 I love drinking water I love being in water you know there's so much and then it suddenly it feels like I'm making water sacred somehow it's really interesting. 00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:14.000 Like you with the tree rosemary it's yeah beautiful I love rivers and how they move. 00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:37.039 So Layla um could you give our um listeners your website please because I have spent a few days looking at your website and I I get joy from looking at what you're doing and and actually you come across as a very peaceful calm woman and I look at your work online and I can see that peace and calmness in your work so yeah what's your website please? 00:49:37.360 --> 00:50:01.519 My website is Layla Davis Ceramics laylais.com sorry it's laylais.com that's what it's called on Instagram I'm Layla Davis Ceramics thank you very much and for our listeners have a look at Insta because Layla does it different to everyone else she talks to you as if you're an individual and she'll talk you through her pieces and it's actually really beautiful to watch. 00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:05.519 Thank you I'm enjoying it I'm enjoying the challenge of showing up on Instagram. 00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.039 Yeah great and and thank you for this interview Layla. 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:14.159 It's been delightful I can't stop thinking about all the lovely stuff we've talked about so thank you so much. 00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:21.280 Well thank you for giving me the opportunity to really reflect it's been awesome and it's great to make more connection with you two. 00:50:21.679 --> 00:50:22.400 Thank you. 00:50:26.559 --> 00:50:31.840 Rosemary key learnings from Layla what did you actually what were your main ones? 00:50:32.079 --> 00:51:16.559 Yes well I've picked learnings that um similar so she talked about the carers neurosis and she talked about seeking joy not being selfish and in a role lots of roles for women doctors' roles teachers' roles nurses' roles and so what I got from later was these wonderful things of it's okay for me to seek joy and for all women for young mums old mums old women it's great you're allowed to seek joy that and I was a teacher so I was in a caring role a beautiful you know important role teaching is a very important role yes but it's okay to seek joy I love that from Leila and the carers neurosis. 00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:26.719 When she came out of being a GP and you know feeling having to train herself that it's okay to be an artist and to seek joy. 00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:44.159 I love that even the way you've put it I love that I picked two I picked stepping off a cliff because sometimes I feel like when you're making that big change it does feel a bit like stepping off a cliff and you don't know whether you're gonna sink or swim and I'm a year in and I still don't know whether I'm gonna sink or swim. 00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:52.880 So I think it's really good to actually be aware that it when you actually make

those changes it does feel a bit like stepping off a cliff. 00:51:53.039 --> 00:52:01.760 I actually relate it to standing at the top of a mountain slope and a very steep one and you literally when you ski you're just literally falling down like that. 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:44.239 It's a yeah wow that's that one and then the other one that I really loved was creative work as oxygen which we discussed quite a lot in the chat with Layla but I do feel as though it's so important so important it it is you're creating you have to yes so what's inspiring you Rosemary great well I'm inspired by Layla with her Instagram I love the way she gets on and she introduces us to her art and then she takes you through steps and different parts of the art that you wouldn't see as an observer unless she pointed it out. 00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:53.840 And so I'm going to do that because I've got my author copy for my next book and it's about how we're too yeah so exciting. 00:52:54.079 --> 00:53:01.840 We're too much on our screen so once I've fixed it up I'm working on that today and then I'll order not author copies. 00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:06.480 Because they put it they put a not for sale across the fronts because you're not going to sell it. 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:22.320 It's your check-in copy yes and then I go and write all through it anyway point is um when I get the final version which will be next week I will do a couple of instas where I'm taking people through why I did the story and what's inside the story. 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.199 Hopefully people love it as much as I do. 00:53:25.519 --> 00:54:18.960 Wow cool what about you have you been shopping this morning I have been shopping and I'm doing brand new work at the moment so I actually am inspired I well I I'm gonna go back a step I actually did Amy Kennedy's course make exceptional work and in that course she actually tells us to give ourselves constraints and so I am working as you know because I said last time I'm working on a new product which or project which I will release next podcast that we do and I uh gave myself some constraints around this project and in giving myself constraints I've actually found freedom in those constraints which it surprised me it surprised me because I suddenly thought oh I don't these are the constraints but I don't need to think about that anymore and I don't need to think about that anymore. 00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:22.400 So I'm inspired by the fact constraints can give you freedom. 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:24.239 So that's inspiring me. 00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:37.760 So constraints might be um limited colour limited shape that sort of thing well one of the one of the things that I said is like I'm these are going to be sculptures not functional wear. 00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:38.960 So it's not functional. 00:54:39.199 --> 00:55:00.000 So suddenly by constraining myself to that I don't have to use the I I went to buy some special um oxides today and the lady said to me you can't use that one because it's not food safe and I said that's fine it doesn't have to be food safe so I could choose this wonderful colour that's what I want that's not food safe. 00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:01.679 So it's it's fine it's fine. 00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:02.960 As I said that's fine. 00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:04.800 Can you hear the music rosary? 00:55:05.599 --> 00:55:29.199 Yes I can well Erin our lovely Erin actually made who has been working with us as a what do they call graduate for a couple of months actually made that music for us and I'd just like to thank her her details will be in the notes that we're doing at the end but yeah I I just thought I should mention that. 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:36.559 So thank you Erin that's wonderful all right well we'll see you next time Rosemary have a great day experimenting. 00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:44.079 I will I will I will okay all right bye thank you so much for listening to Shift Stirrers podcast. 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:51.280 If you enjoyed this episode please hit that follow button so you can get notified whenever we we release new content. 00:55:51.440 --> 00:56:04.000 We'd love to hear feel from you and feel free to reach out to us at theshift stirrers at gmail.com or you can find our individual email addresses and websites in the show notes below. 00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:05.440 We love questions. 00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:10.639 You can also connect to us on Instagram at ShiftStirrers. 00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:21.920 If you found value in today's conversation we'd be incredible incredibly grateful if you could leave us a review or a rating on your podcast platform. 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:29.280 It really helps others to discover the show and if you know someone who will benefit from this episode please share with them. 00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:38.480 Until next time keep stirring the shift just a quick disclaimer Michelle and Roseme are not experts in any of these discussions today. 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:44.000 We present this podcast in the interest of getting you curious to make changes. 00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:44.639 Thank you.