สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
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This hack, if no other hack has done it, this hack,
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should at least do something to stop the,
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well, if I just buy another tool,
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I'll be able to solve the problem.
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Ooh, picture this.
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You think you're doing a job interview,
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the coding exercise is not a test, but it's a trap.
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Binance says attackers used a fake recruiting process
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and malicious software to compromise engineers
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and then used a third engineer's computer
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in the report theft of roughly 6.3 billion in cryptocurrency.
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Now, this isn't just a crypto got hacked story.
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It's a nasty game of corporate dominoes,
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recruiter lure, infected laptop, trusted tools,
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powerful permissions and a transfer path
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that should have had a lot more breaks.
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Plus, the FBI has now attributed the theft
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to a North Korean hacking group.
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So today, we are going to discuss
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how does a fake interview become a billion dollar incident
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and what stops one compromised endpoint
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from turning into the biggest cryptocurrency breach to date?
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And joining me to discuss this topic
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are my co-hosts, Scott Wright and Kevin Tackett.
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Hello, gentlemen.
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Uh-oh, now we're gentlemen.
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Yes, you are the finest gentleman to ever be on a podcast.
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Yes, yes.
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I am the finest gentleman in these shoes.
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You're right.
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Right, right.
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Well, it's the funniest guy in these shoes.
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Yes.
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So largest cryptocurrency breach in history to date.
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It's not real money, right?
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So far, it's not real money.
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It's not real, so don't worry about it.
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It's not real.
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Yeah, yeah, no one invests in this stuff.
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No, no.
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This is one of those ones
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that I'm getting a little bit of a kick out of.
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Yeah.
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I don't mean that it's in, I'm enjoying it.
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Okay, yeah.
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Yeah, I don't mean it that way.
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I just like the sheer amount of noise around.
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Oh, a lot of noise.
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Like, look, expensive crypto, all cool buzzwords,
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everything else like that.
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But my understanding is, and correct me
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if I'm misunderstanding, my understanding is
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this is simply somebody's end point got hacked
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and somebody abused the access they had with that hack.
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There's nothing special about what happened here.
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And that to me is actually the really interesting part of this
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is that, yeah, really big damage, you know,
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all of that, all that's interesting.
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Definitely a company, like to me,
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this is where we go to definitely a company
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that if it was possible to secure all the things
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they could afford, right?
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Oh, yeah.
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I make the joke all the time
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when I'm on stage at conferences and stuff like that,
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like, hey, if you have an unlimited budget,
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stop by my booth.
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This company pretty much has an unlimited budget, right?
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It's like a bank.
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Yeah, but more so, right?
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Like, I mean, it's just math.
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They can math more, but what I want to,
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my point is this hack, if no other hack has done it,
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this hack should at least do something to stop the,
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well, if I just buy another tool,
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I'll be able to solve the problem.
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That's a good thing.
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Yeah.
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That's the point I wish more people were getting
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from this hack.
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Like, look, they had the controls,
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at least according to everything I've read.
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I mean, not a customer, right?
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I don't know anything about them.
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I'm not a customer of theirs.
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They're not a customer of mine.
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Load full transcript
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I don't know a fraud except what I've read.
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And everything I've read says,
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here is a company that had the ability
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and the interest in doing all the right thing.
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And they still got popped.
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Maybe we could switch where we focus our attention
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on our own stuff.
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Well, it's also, I mean,
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this is going back to the interview,
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the North Korea fake interviews, right?
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Which have hit several companies.
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No before.
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Yeah, a lot of companies have been hit with this.
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And to your point, Kevin, like it's not,
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I mean, of course you get on a system of a developer,
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of course you're going to be able to replicate
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the settings of that developer
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and the access that that developer has,
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which is exactly what happened here.
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Of course they had access to the source code
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and coding repositories, that's what a developer does.
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The answer isn't, oh, remove the access.
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That developer needs that access.
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This is an actual business case
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where I think it's interesting that North Korea did this.
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If you're a crypto company
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and you don't realize nation states are coming after you,
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you probably aren't that good of a crypto companies.
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Yeah, I hope I don't have high hopes.
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I would not put, what is it?
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Polymarket money.
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Oh gosh.
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No, but this is one of those cases
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where I hope that people just look at it and go,
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damn, maybe we should be thinking about,
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how do we, how do we evaluate access?
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How do we evaluate what is okay and what isn't okay?
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How do we monitor for the inbound stuff, right?
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What was it, Gatelik?
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That, he did the egress detection was his book.
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Yeah.
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Right, or 20 years ago or something like that, right?
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The idea was good, right?
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Like, hey, we know they're gonna get in.
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Like, we don't like it.
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We'll do everything we can to stop them from being in, right?
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But if we work from the assumption
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that we know they'll get in ultimately,
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how do we reduce the damage they can do?
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Detection and response, yeah.
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Right, incident response.
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This is where this goes back to because, yeah,
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we can't stop the fake job interview,
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the malicious software downloads,
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like that's all going to happen.
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I mean, these are the attack vectors
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that are being leveraged.
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But I think the one thing to call out in this incident
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is that there was a four-hour response window.
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So there was a period of time that detection
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and other things were probably starting to happen,
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but it took them four hours to basically shut this down.
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And four hours is a long time.
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I mean.
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Yeah, anybody who's ridden in a car
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for four hours with toddlers knows that.
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Yeah, right.
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But I think that is,
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it's like what we always talk about, right?
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Eventually, an organization is going to get hacked.
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It's just a matter of when, right?
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And it's how we prepare
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and how we handle incident response.
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And in this case, I'm glad that they were transparent
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about the process, like what happened,
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and that's why the community right now
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is talking about this.
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But the fact that, of course,
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they're going after cryptocurrency
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because you can make transactions very quickly
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and then the traceability piece debatable
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through the blockchain or what have you, right?
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And the reason I think North Korea
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is targeting cryptocurrency organizations
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and companies like Binance
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is because this is how they're funding their government.
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Like I read an article about this of how,
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well, why is North Korea so good at hacking right now?
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And it's because this is how they are funding
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their government from, you know,
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like they have no other means of making money.
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So do it this way, right?
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And crypto has always been presented
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as an unstoppable money, right?
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Like if I grab it, it's mine.
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You can't not be proud.
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Now, obviously systems have been put in place
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and yeah, now what have you, but...
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So one question I have though,
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I'm interested in your take,
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but I didn't see anywhere where now
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this job interview where the developers at Binance,
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were they interviewing like a candidate?
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I don't think they were, right?
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Because they were actually interviewing themselves
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because they were asked to download essentially code
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a package to look at.
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But then there was an advertisement
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that was basically the malware delivery piece.
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And then the source code I'm assuming
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or the code whatever ran, you know,
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that the exercise that they had to do
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initiated the attack and created that C2 channel.
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That's how I'm kind of...
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But though I understand it.
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The way I imagine it when you said
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that the company wasn't advertising for jobs,
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it would have likely been, I think, the other way around.
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One of the engineers might have been looking for a job.
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That's what I'm thinking, yeah.
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And somebody, he saw an ad exactly like you said.
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And they were using their Binance work computer.
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Yes, yeah.
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Which is a big no-no.
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But never have it.
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Yeah, I mean,
it's, yes,
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I'm sure this happens all the time,
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but if you're interviewing for a job,
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I mean, I guess this gets back to
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personal versus business, right?
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And we've talked about why you should have
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a personal device for personal things
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and it's not the best idea to do your personal work
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on your work laptop,
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even though it happens all the time.
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And yeah, yeah, of course.
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But it's how, you know,
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if you're interviewing and you're running code
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on your work computer, I don't know.
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Mobile apps are just part of everyday life now.
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Banking, healthcare, shopping, entertainment, you name it.
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And with that comes a lot of trust
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because users are putting their personal data
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directly into your app.
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But here's the reality.
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Mobile apps are a growing target.
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A recent survey found that 72% of organizations
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experienced a mobile app security incident last year
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and 92% say threats are only increasing.
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And the way attackers are going after apps
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is pretty sophisticated.
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They're reverse engineering them, modifying them
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and redistributing fake versions through phishing campaigns,
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side loading and even third party app stores.
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So from a user's perspective,
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everything can look completely legitimate.
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That's why taking a proactive approach
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to mobile app security really matters.
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You wanna stay ahead of these threats,
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not react after the damage is done.
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This is where Guard Square comes in.
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They provide advanced protection for both Android
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and iOS apps, along with automated security testing
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to catch vulnerabilities early
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and real-time threat monitoring
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so you can actually see what's happening out there.
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If your mobile app is critical to your business,
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and it probably is,
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this is something worth paying attention to.
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You can learn more at guardsquare.com.
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That's guardsquare.com.
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On the consumer side,
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I'm gonna wade into a little bit of dangerous water here.
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Make the podcast interesting.
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Let's do it.
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I recall a few, let me start it this way.
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Why are they not putting as many things in place
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as we would expect they might,
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even though they've got the interest in the means,
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they're not being required to
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by any regulatory organization.
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This takes us back to weeks or months ago
269
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,080
when we were talking about something
270
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,760
and the obvious question was,
271
00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,960
why isn't there regulation?
272
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,600
I remember Kevin saying,
273
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somebody tell me in a situation
274
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,080
where regulation actually saved money
275
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,880
or I can't remember the exact wording you used,
276
00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,600
but this could be an inverse or a corollary of that
277
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,920
to say the guys didn't have the stuff in place,
278
00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,080
partly because there was no regulation on it.
279
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,480
That's possible.
280
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:03,600
Can I throw a question at you?
281
00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:04,640
Yeah.
282
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,000
What did they not have in place?
283
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,640
Well, they could have had procedures, right?
284
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:09,600
They could have had...
285
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:11,920
Why don't you think they have procedures?
286
00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:13,520
Well, because there was,
287
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,520
who was there to authorize two threshold accounting levels
288
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,120
for payments or whatever happened?
289
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,120
So, and I'm not saying this is right.
290
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,240
I'm just, I'm throwing it out there is,
291
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,600
one, the whole model of crypto
292
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,840
is it's your money to transfer where you want to.
293
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:34,680
Right.
294
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:36,960
But the crypto exchanges, it happens there, right?
295
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,880
So somehow they do have potentially controls,
296
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,720
like
you said.
297
00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:41,560
I'm just...
298
00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:42,400
I'm not saying...
299
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,320
I know this is dangerous place for me to go.
300
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,160
So I don't know enough about the story
301
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,480
and I'm just thinking one of the reasons
302
00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,560
why crypto seems risky is it is not regulated.
303
00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:52,720
And you're right, Kevin,
304
00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,040
that technologically there may be no way to do it.
305
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,400
I'm not saying there's no way.
306
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,520
I'm saying I don't know any control
307
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,920
they didn't have in place that they should have.
308
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,680
And the reason I say that is,
309
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:08,880
okay, so one of the pros or cons,
310
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,760
depending on which side you're on of the problem
311
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,800
is that crypto is supposed to be able
312
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,640
to be as completely and totally anonymous, right?
313
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,060
So if it's completely and totally anonymous,
314
00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:25,040
then we can't limit transfers
315
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,200
just because we don't know who's doing it.
316
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,520
Yeah, I mean, that's an idealistic way to look at it though, right?
317
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:29,360
Because...
318
00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:31,520
No, no, but it's not an idealistic way.
319
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,080
It is the model of crypto,
320
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,400
is that it's supposed to be anonymous.
321
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,800
So do people not get tracked or traced
322
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,560
as they make transactions between exchanges?
323
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:43,320
That was the entire point of Bitcoin,
324
00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:44,320
was that you were...
325
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,400
It was one of the points of Bitcoin,
326
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,040
is that you were supposed to be able
327
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,640
to make a purchase without...
328
00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:51,480
I understand.
329
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:52,320
That's the ideal way,
330
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,000
but that's not really the way it happens
331
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:54,840
in a lot of cases.
332
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:55,800
It is the way it happens.
333
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,200
But otherwise, you wouldn't be able
334
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,160
to trace anything anywhere and recover any,
335
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,080
because a lot of times when you hear incidents,
336
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,600
you hear, oh, we got 30 or 40% of the time.
337
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,200
We got this much bad, whatever.
338
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,200
So there were some ways to actually track
339
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,480
what was going
on.
340
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,680
No, no, no, it's not that you can't track the transaction.
341
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,320
It's that you can't track who did the transaction.
342
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,760
Until it reaches a place where there are footprints,
343
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,680
right, or there's evidence.
344
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,640
But that's why reversing the transaction
345
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,440
is possible even if the transaction was anonymous.
346
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,640
The transaction is still recorded, right?
347
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,040
So what I'm saying is my understanding
348
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,120
is that the technical controls
349
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,160
that could have stopped this were all in place.
350
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,720
And the business controls were all in place.
351
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,960
This is an example of somebody got access to a machine
352
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:50,760
and because they got access to the machine.
353
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:51,760
Now that...
354
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,080
I'm not saying that there absolutely should be
355
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,080
or could have been in the interest of trying to create
356
00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,440
a robust system, maybe there's...
357
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,040
The way it was designed, that's true.
358
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,600
All I'm saying is from a consumer point of view,
359
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:07,120
if I want to invest in something
360
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,360
and risk is one of the things I want to minimize,
361
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:13,600
I think you...
362
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:14,960
Yeah, exactly, right?
363
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,160
Period, yeah, yeah.
364
00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,520
It is risky.
365
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:18,000
Oh, yeah.
366
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,360
Right, but that's my point is I'm not disagreeing with you
367
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,040
that we can do something around regulation and things like that.
368
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,240
I personally don't believe regulation solves most things,
369
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:35,760
but fructo is an unregulated risky area on this.
370
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,920
I think that was the point of what I was trying to get to here.
371
00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,120
So as a consumer, if you're worried about risk, don't do it.
372
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:43,920
Yeah, exactly.
373
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,760
Yeah, it's a risk acceptance, just like everything.
374
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,240
Whether you choose to invest in the stock market
375
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:55,200
versus cryptocurrency versus sports betting,
376
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,880
I mean, all kinds of things, right?
377
00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,880
Like, they all become risk decisions.
378
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,880
Yeah, there is no help desk or customer service desk for the crypto.
379
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,600
And I think the biggest issue is that crypto is presented as not risky
380
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,680
by so many people who have a vetted interest
381
00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,920
in making you put money in it, right?
382
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:14,560
Yeah.
383
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,080
Like, biased people will convince you there's no risk.
384
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,480
Oh, no, I mean, it's easy.
385
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,720
People who the risk doesn't really impact, right?
386
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,800
I mean, if you've got a billion dollars
387
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:26,960
and you put a hundred thousand in crypto,
388
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,400
it's not going to impact you if it gets...
389
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,400
Or by the people who are benefit by you investing, right?
390
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,720
If I can sell you crypto,
391
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,400
it doesn't matter if I have a billion or not,
392
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,720
I have a vested interest in convincing you it's not risky, right?
393
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,720
It's to me versus to say now.
394
00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:43,360
Kevin O'Leary.
395
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,080
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
396
00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,120
I'll tell you right now,
397
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:54,160
this is the same thing to me as the Mary Kay lady
398
00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,880
who has thousands of dollars of inventory
399
00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,720
that tries to convince their friend that it's an amazing way to do it, right?
400
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:01,040
Like...
401
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:01,440
Amway.
402
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,200
Oh, Amway.
403
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:06,080
Whatever the...
404
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,560
I always use Mary Kay because I have personal experience with...
405
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,200
Having done that, but all of them are the same way.
406
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,280
You have somebody, you know, and somebody who is living in a trailer park
407
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,120
tells you that the way to riches is by signing up for this thing.
408
00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:25,440
There's nothing wrong with living in a trailer park,
409
00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,440
but I'm going to assume that you don't have the riches.
410
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,520
And if you did, then you wouldn't do that.
411
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,600
And they're not even driving a pink Cadillac or whatever.
412
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,280
I know, how disappointing.
413
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:39,920
I was sad.
414
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:40,480
Yeah.
415
00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,880
Well, interesting story nonetheless,
416
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,960
and I think we'll continue to see breaches with crypto.
417
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,240
This is a very, very hot target,
418
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,080
especially for nation states like North Korea and others.
419
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,120
But yeah, I
think that, you know, lesson here,
420
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,200
I think for listeners is obviously be aware of what you invest in
421
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,240
and the risks associated with that for organizations.
422
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,280
It's do the best you can with the security controls
423
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,360
and procedures that you're putting in place
424
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,520
and look at your incident response process and detection
425
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,400
and, you know, all the things that the security basics
426
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:16,800
that we always talk about.
427
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,320
Yeah, especially when you can't prevent stuff.
428
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:19,280
Right.
429
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,600
So because I still go back to that four hour window,
430
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,000
right, money was leaving the company.
431
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,320
And then they finally were like, oh, something's going on here, guys.
432
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:30,640
We got to, you know, stop the transactions.
433
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,440
So, you know, there's probably things that Binance
434
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,080
is going to do better alerting, better whatever, right?
435
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,440
But again, instant results.
436
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,480
I hoped.
437
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:39,360
Yeah, right.
438
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:40,240
Exactly.
439
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,640
And then I think least privilege access,
440
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:44,880
all of the things that we talk about, right?
441
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,640
But like the other thing we talked about too
442
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,120
is that once you get access to a system
443
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,880
that has privileged access to code repositories
444
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,200
and other systems, it's pretty much game over.
445
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,720
Once lateral movement starts.
446
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,920
So it becomes a detection game at that point.
447
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:00,400
Yeah.
448
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,280
Interesting.
449
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,160
All right.
450
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,800
Well, I think that's all we have time for today.
451
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,840
I want to thank you both for joining me this week.
452
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,680
I want to thank everyone for listening.
453
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:16,160
And until next time, stay safe, stay secure, and stay private.
454
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:17,840
Thank you for listening or watching.
455
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,720
If you liked this episode, hit subscribe,
456
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,480
share it with your friends and colleagues,
457
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,840
or jump into our community at sharedsecurity.net
458
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560
slash supporter to keep the conversation going.
459
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,720
Thanks again, and we'll see you next week
460
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,280
for another episode of Shared Security.