บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ EP 101: Nutrition for Neurodivergent Children with Lucinda Miller

Can you tell us a little bit more about it? 00:02:40.539 --> 00:02:50.715 Yeah, olivia, it's lovely to be back and yes, I've been a busy bee writing a book and it came out at the end of August and it sold out in two weeks. 00:02:50.715 --> 00:02:52.526 Wow, congratulations. 00:02:52.526 --> 00:03:24.167 No-transcript, sometimes there's a long waiting list, etc. 00:03:24.167 --> 00:03:24.407 But anyway. 00:03:24.407 --> 00:03:30.348 But anyway, yes, so you're exactly right, it's called brain brilliance and it's a nutritional toolkit for the neurodivergent mind. 00:03:30.348 --> 00:03:43.588 So it embraces all neurodivergents, whether someone's dyslexic, dyspraxic, adhd, autistic, but also other things like angel man syndrome, cerebral palsy down, etc. 00:03:43.588 --> 00:03:52.504 And then things like long COVID as well in kids, which is you know, and those sorts of things can affect the mind just as much and affect learning trajectories. 00:03:52.765 --> 00:03:59.211 And trauma, I have to add to like kids that have experienced trauma, which, you know, present with a very neurodiverse picture, could probably benefit as well. 00:03:59.211 --> 00:04:00.681 I'm just guessing that. 00:04:01.302 --> 00:04:01.924 Absolutely so. 00:04:01.924 --> 00:04:15.424 It's a very supportive book, it's a very inclusive book and it's there really to provide lots of information all the questions that people have always had about nutrition and the brain. 00:04:15.424 --> 00:04:29.826 So I go into a deep dive into the neurotransmitters, all the individual nutrients, and then I have a chapter on individual challenges that so many neurodivergent kids experience. 00:04:29.826 --> 00:04:39.353 So it could be emotional dysregulation, it could be fussy eating, it could be anxiety, tics, OCD, it could be sleep problems, etc. 00:04:39.353 --> 00:04:44.012 So I sort of try and embrace all the things that kids may be going through. 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:48.790 And then equate how nutrition can help navigate some of those challenges. 00:04:48.790 --> 00:04:49.812 I presume Is that right. 00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:51.120 Absolutely. 00:04:51.120 --> 00:05:04.153 So there are my sort of top tips for each thing, and then at the end I've got 60 glorious recipes full of nutritious goodies that sort of help to nourish the brain. 00:05:04.153 --> 00:05:07.665 Full of nutritious goodies that sort of help to nourish the brain. 00:05:07.665 --> 00:05:10.574 So things full of omega-3 and zinc and iron, b vitamins, et cetera all those really important things. 00:05:10.574 --> 00:05:31.045 And there's a specific smoothie, for instance, called my Cherry Sleepy Smoothie, which is full of natural melatonin and calming herbs like chamomile, and that's been super popular, and I've had parents literally email me saying oh my God, it's the first time my child's ever slept properly through the night having just had that smoothie. 00:05:31.045 --> 00:05:34.350 So it's amazing stuff I've also got. 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:44.874 There are lots of very fussy eaters, and so I've created some margarita pizza waffles, which seem to be very, very popular, and some chocolate quinoa waffles. 00:05:44.874 --> 00:06:01.434 So, yeah, most of the recipes are crunchy and beige, but with sort of supercharged nutrients inside, which, yes, beige is a popular food color, I think, for a lot of listeners for their children. 00:06:01.821 --> 00:06:11.240 So that's great that you are meeting the need of what kids want to eat at home, because I think that's sometimes the problem when you're trying to navigate healthy eating with your kids. 00:06:11.240 --> 00:06:15.309 It's how do you actually get the healthy stuff into children, you know? 00:06:15.309 --> 00:06:18.721 So that crosses one of the barriers. 00:06:19.884 --> 00:06:20.485 Absolutely. 00:06:20.485 --> 00:06:27.329 But I also, as I said in the chapter on fussy eating, absolutely. 00:06:27.329 --> 00:06:29.540 But I also, as I said in the chapter on fussy eating, I share all the reasons why. 00:06:29.540 --> 00:06:36.732 Because I think so many people just think, oh, you know, I'm never going to be able to achieve this. 00:06:36.732 --> 00:06:49.250 Especially, I mean, we work with children who are literally eating only two foods, and this is where sometimes you can go through the gradual, gradual approach of changing the food slowly but surely and thinking okay, they like create, you know, crunchy beige foods. 00:06:49.250 --> 00:06:53.353 Let's give them sort of more nutritious crunchy beige foods or just adapt things very, very slowly. 00:06:53.954 --> 00:06:58.148 But there are also other reasons for that limited diet. 00:06:59.149 --> 00:07:06.440 Sometimes it's a high anxiety state, and so actually some supplements to help reduce that anxiety can be really, really helpful. 00:07:07.865 --> 00:07:22.267 You've got then the gut microbiome, which is the gut bacteria in the gut that can alter the neurotransmitter production and therefore alter things like how someone perceives tastes, smell, texture, etc. 00:07:22.267 --> 00:07:23.689 So you can work on that too. 00:07:23.689 --> 00:07:32.845 You can work on something called zinc, and zinc helps with things like sense of smell and taste, and if you don't have enough zinc you find it difficult to digest food. 00:07:32.845 --> 00:07:42.382 So often they might complain of a sore tummy, equally, if they're low in iron they may have a again a painful stomach and have a very low appetite. 00:07:42.382 --> 00:07:45.471 So there are lots of reasons why that might happen. 00:07:45.471 --> 00:07:50.430 Also, many neurodivergent kids also have quite low muscle tone in their mouth. 00:07:50.430 --> 00:08:12.192 So if they've been slow to talk or they just find things that you know, occasionally it's purely they're not eating other foods because they just don't feel they can swallow it or it's too difficult, and therefore there are exercises in the book too on

how to sort of strengthen that sort of oral tone so it's easier to chew, easier to swallow. 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:32.386 It's super interesting because it's looking kind of like what are the extra factors that are causing that refusal to eat and then addressing those as needed, whether that be supplementation or, as you said, muscle tone, to kind of reduce those barriers and then get the right food in front of them that then they can actually perhaps enjoy or try or sample. 00:08:32.427 --> 00:08:38.921 That's really super interesting because you know, it's not the philosophy that I was raised by, where you know you just have to finish your plate and what's ever on it. 00:08:38.921 --> 00:08:45.193 It's actually looking to see what are some of those barriers that neurodiverse children are experiencing that we aren't able to see as parents. 00:08:45.193 --> 00:08:55.932 I'm definitely going to buy a copy of your book when it comes back into print because I have those challenges at home as well and I know that some of the listeners you know they've asked some, you know have asked questions. 00:08:55.932 --> 00:09:03.653 You know I've had one listener who you know his child ended up in hospital with iron deficiency, anemia and, you know, blue lips. 00:09:03.653 --> 00:09:12.259 I mean that's how severe the lack of eating food had become and that's really scary for a parent and you feel so helpless. 00:09:12.259 --> 00:09:15.570 So it sounds like your book has a lot of tools to kind of address things like that. 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:16.860 Yes. 00:09:16.860 --> 00:09:24.221 So I think I'm super passionate about all of this because I don't want it to get to that crisis point. 00:09:24.221 --> 00:09:32.735 And if it has got to the crisis point, obviously the medical team will take over and they'll probably have to do iron infusions or whatever they need to do. 00:09:32.735 --> 00:09:38.006 But we don't want our kids to get to that state and I think it happens. 00:09:38.486 --> 00:09:40.139 The trouble is with nutrient deficiencies. 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:41.706 It happens very, very slowly. 00:09:41.706 --> 00:09:42.809 It's a drip drip effect. 00:09:42.809 --> 00:09:55.506 It's not something that suddenly happens overnight and that's why you know, if you went dairy free for two weeks to see if that was helping you, you're not going to become deficient in calcium in two weeks. 00:09:55.506 --> 00:10:09.620 But if you go dairy free for three, four, five years and you're not taking calcium, vitamin D, magnesium, et cetera, then there may be a problem going forward with your bones and with other things going on. 00:10:09.620 --> 00:10:17.028 So I think it's really important to think about these nutrients and thinking what is my child not eating? 00:10:17.028 --> 00:10:44.663 Because if they're not eating things with B12, if they're not eating things with iron, if they're not eating things with zinc or omega-3, then you do need to find a way somehow and

I know it's damn hard sometimes because children can be really tricky to get supplements into, but to consider supplements, because sometimes even the really challenging eaters actually are okay with something like fruit juice and you can get a heck of a lot in fruit juice, for instance, or a smoothie or something. 00:10:44.855 --> 00:10:46.467 That's been my preferred method has been, you know, smoothie or something. 00:10:46.467 --> 00:10:47.293 My preferred method has been fruit juice. 00:10:47.293 --> 00:10:48.778 Yeah, and that's a treat. 00:10:48.778 --> 00:10:52.567 So a treat with a little secret supplement in it. 00:10:55.356 --> 00:11:00.008 And sometimes you have to go as far as hiding it in ice cream or jam, and that's okay too. 00:11:00.008 --> 00:11:10.663 Just to begin with, I see these supplements purely as scaffolding until you're able to enable that eating, and that could be a short-term window. 00:11:10.663 --> 00:11:20.966 It could be a long-term window, but if it is a zinc deficiency or an iron deficiency, you can see a change within six to eight weeks if you build in enough of those supplements. 00:11:20.985 --> 00:11:24.926 Yeah, I saw a remarkable change actually from listening to you last time we spoke. 00:11:24.926 --> 00:11:27.461 My daughter was zinc and her stopping chewing on things. 00:11:27.461 --> 00:11:35.037 I mean, she would chew on things incessantly, you know, and you know her whole shirt would be wet literally from chewing, and zinc made a remarkable difference in that. 00:11:35.037 --> 00:11:39.995 So, and your, your recommendation on juice as well, because otherwise it wasn't going down. 00:11:39.995 --> 00:11:47.668 So I think those are, you know it's, it's nice because it's practical solutions that actually parents can use, versus, you know, hide the vegetables. 00:11:47.668 --> 00:11:58.445 You know, hide the vegetables in this and they won't notice, because they often do notice, I guess they do and you have to be very gradual with things. 00:11:58.917 --> 00:12:11.722 But what you were describing with your daughter in case people don't understand about the chewing of her top was is there something called PICA, p-i-c-a, which is well established in pregnant women, for instance? 00:12:11.803 --> 00:12:29.178 So they often crave things like cold or really icy drinks and it's sort of like craving non-food items, and it's because they're sort of basically usually deficient in iron and sometimes zinc, and this can be shown in children as well through putting non-food items in their mouth. 00:12:29.178 --> 00:12:40.174 So it could be something like a stone or some dirt tissues paper, but equally it could be hoodie strings and sleeves and collars and things like that. 00:12:40.174 --> 00:12:48.509 And this is more common in the neurodivergent kids and more common in the kids that have probably a limited diet. 00:12:48.509 --> 00:12:52.904 They tend to be the ones that are low in zinc and iron. 00:12:52.904 -->

00:13:09.562 It's really important to address PICA if you can, because putting these non-food items in your mouth poses a higher risk for things like lead toxicity, also blockage in the bowel you know, a stone if you swallow that or something like that? 00:13:09.562 --> 00:13:11.527 Yeah, so it and parasites as well. 00:13:11.527 --> 00:13:14.059 So it's really important. 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:15.524 It was remarkable to change as well. 00:13:15.524 --> 00:13:16.826 So thank you for that lovely tip. 00:13:16.826 --> 00:13:30.220 Now you mentioned that the gut health and the biome which is, you know, becoming more and more of a major focus in terms of our lifestyle and how it impacts us, you know, in our brain connection with our gut. 00:13:30.220 --> 00:13:36.677 And how do you assess a child's gut microbiome without doing a sample? 00:13:36.677 --> 00:13:39.946 How you know how does one go about that and understanding what's going on. 00:13:41.634 --> 00:13:49.561 So we do run stool samples and I think, actually I think that's really important if you want to know exactly what's going on. 00:13:49.561 --> 00:13:52.442 But I will give some examples so people have practical tips too. 00:13:52.442 --> 00:13:59.048 So, basically, a gut microbiome test is we do that as well as a gut function test. 00:13:59.048 --> 00:14:05.673 So we're looking to see is the child digesting, absorbing efficiently, is there any inflammation? 00:14:05.673 --> 00:14:12.370 Inflammation, is there any problem with gut lining, that sort of thing first, is there any blood or mucus? 00:14:12.370 --> 00:14:14.898 You know, should we be referring them back to pediatrics? 00:14:14.898 --> 00:14:18.087 Then we do this gut microbiome test. 00:14:18.087 --> 00:14:37.318 So basically, the gut microbiome is a lovely ecosystem think of it as a beautiful, beautiful meadow and it's full of flora and fauna and lots of different kind of bugs and things and these all should work in harmony and they help you digest your food. 00:14:37.318 --> 00:14:48.298 They help make B vitamins, they help with your immune system, they help bring down something called inflammation Inflammation leads to pain and rashes and also brain fog and things. 00:14:48.379 --> 00:14:53.476 But they also help to make neurotransmitters, and neurotransmitters are these brain chemicals. 00:14:53.476 --> 00:14:57.765 So serotonin is the most famous one that everyone has heard about. 00:14:57.765 --> 00:15:04.106 90% of our serotonin is made in the gut and this helps us be happy, sleep well, poop easily. 00:15:04.106 --> 00:15:07.768 Okay, then you've got acetylcholine. 00:15:07.768 --> 00:15:13.826 Acetylcholine is really important for working, memory processing and self-regulation and emotional regulation. 00:15:13.826 --> 00:15:17.624 There's GABA, which helps with things like anxiety and sleep. 00:15:17.624 --> 00:15:29.601 There is dopamine, which obviously with ADHD, lots of focus, concentration, inattentiveness all

of that is obviously helped with creating enough dopamine. 00:15:29.601 --> 00:15:34.397 Then you've got often, with the ADHD, you've got a high adrenaline state. 00:15:34.397 --> 00:15:42.039 So you've got low dopamine, high adrenaline, and again this adrenaline, high cortisol state can again be supported through the gut microbiome. 00:15:42.801 --> 00:15:57.599 So it's really important to be able to create a wonderful diversity within the gut so that everything's working in harmony and blocking out the bad guys, which are these invasive bacteria. 00:15:57.599 --> 00:16:10.481 You don't want strep, you don't want something called Klebsiella, you don't want Citrobacter, you don't want, you know, some of these parasites and things like that, or yeast overgrowth, so these can cause problems. 00:16:10.481 --> 00:16:16.562 But you do want the good guys like lactobacillus bifidobacterium, akkermansia. 00:16:16.562 --> 00:16:25.408 You know these are good guys that help to create the you know these really positive hormones and brain chemicals. 00:16:25.408 --> 00:16:31.357 Hormones and brain chemicals. 00:16:31.357 --> 00:16:32.341 So how do you feed the gut microbiome? 00:16:32.341 --> 00:16:33.525 Well, lots of fruits and vegetables. 00:16:33.525 --> 00:16:35.172 So the different pigments and colours in those fruits and vegetables. 00:16:35.172 --> 00:16:39.442 So say, you've got a bowl of berries, you're going to have some reds and some purples. 00:16:39.442 --> 00:16:43.562 If you've got peppers bell peppers you might be looking at red, orange, yellow and green. 00:16:43.562 --> 00:16:45.230 So those different pigments or colours all help to feed the and green. 00:16:45.230 --> 00:16:49.400 So those different pigments or colors all help to feed the microbiome. 00:16:49.642 --> 00:16:53.116 So variety is really what you're looking for in terms of what you're putting in your mouth. 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:54.519 Yeah. 00:16:54.519 --> 00:17:02.144 So, as we were saying, you know, most neurodivergent kids are very mono with what they'll eat, and so expanding the diet is hard. 00:17:02.144 --> 00:17:07.423 But even a bit of cinnamon, you know, in a bowl of porridge will help. 00:17:07.423 --> 00:17:11.579 So spices and herbs, garlic, you know, do they like garlic bread? 00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:12.702 Then you can go. 00:17:12.702 --> 00:17:15.067 Do they like garlic pesto bread? 00:17:15.067 --> 00:17:17.159 Okay, then we can get basil in. 00:17:17.159 --> 00:17:23.279 Okay, with the basil, can we then put some parsley in with that too, and you can sort of build on that. 00:17:23.941 --> 00:17:28.609 Equally, you know, a lot of children love a light curry. 00:17:28.609 --> 00:17:33.281 They don't like the very, very spicy curries, but they do like a curry and it's often a popular one at school. 00:17:33.281 --> 00:17:51.546 And again, you can get some lovely things like cumin, coriander, fenugreek, and these are all really helpful for the gut microbiome

Ginger, garlic, as I said, turmeric so these are all helpful, as well as the actual, you know, broccolis and peas and carrots and things which may seem a bit more daunting. 00:17:51.546 --> 00:18:06.220 And then there are the cultured foods, so live yogurt and then its cousin kefir, both amazing at helping to bolster the gut microbiome, and it's why we're told to eat yogurt after having antibiotics, for instance. 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:14.982 But you can get it from miso, miso soup, which a lot of kids really like A bit of kimchi. 00:18:14.982 --> 00:18:17.973 If they've ever been to Wagamama's, they always want to put kimchi and they love that. 00:18:17.973 --> 00:18:22.364 So pickled cucumbers that's in a McDonald's. 00:18:22.364 --> 00:18:25.638 Okay, I'm not promoting eating McDonald's, but they will. 00:18:25.679 --> 00:18:26.602 If they like pickled cucumber McDonald's. 00:18:26.602 --> 00:18:28.848 But you know they will, my daughter won't even eat it if it comes in. 00:18:32.337 --> 00:18:38.734 Yeah, I know, but if they, do like it, then you can have a jar in your fridge and they can have them. 00:18:38.734 --> 00:18:41.721 So there's a whole load of things that you can try. 00:18:41.721 --> 00:18:44.048 But obviously some kids are fickle. 00:18:44.048 --> 00:18:49.318 They're not going to change their diet, they're not going to eat these weird foods that they describe as weird anyway. 00:18:49.318 --> 00:19:17.605 So that's where probiotics or live bacteria supplements can make a massive difference in the short term, as scaffolding until again that then the neurotransmitters are better, better supported, and then they'll be more likely to accept, they'll be less stressed, less anxious and all those, as I said, those neurological pathways that contribute to what how food tastes, smells and feels, will also be supported. 00:19:17.605 --> 00:19:20.915 So hopefully, over time things will just become easier. 00:19:20.976 --> 00:19:39.970 They'll just become more curious, it's taking the step before you're getting them to eat to actually enable them to be able to then open their palates up to different things, which is very interesting, and, you know, being calm and patient, because it is a gradual change and children take a while, especially neurodiverse children, to come to change, you know. 00:19:39.970 --> 00:19:47.348 So I think it's parents need to be in it for the long game, I guess, instead of looking for an instant kind of solution. 00:19:47.348 --> 00:19:56.987 But it makes a lot of sense because another thing is also the sensory aspect of food, so you know how it, the texture of it, you know, and how it looks and how it feels. 00:19:56.987 --> 00:20:19.693 What are some of the things that you would recommend in terms of parents trying to navigate, opening up their child to different, different textures and sensations of food, or, if they have difficulty with that, or would it again go back to trying to get those precursors in and then slowly trying different types of food or different sensory foods? 00:20:21.037 --> 00:20:25.371 So obviously, if you see an OT or someone like that, they'll talk about a sensory diet. 00:20:25.371 --> 00:20:32.118 So foods that are crunchy will give the kids this sensory feedback and that's great in the short term. 00:20:32.118 --> 00:20:42.373 But most of the crunchy food is not nutrient-dense and, as I said, that's why I've really worked hard on my recipes, not just in my book but on my blog, etc. 00:20:42.373 --> 00:20:47.476 Because I think it's so important that parents have these nutritious foods that they can feed their child. 00:20:47.476 --> 00:21:01.179 Yes, they're going to have to work a bit harder, but at least they're going to get more nutrition in, because every single mouthful counts, but in terms of nutrients, et cetera, to help with that. 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:06.153 Going back to zinc, zinc, as I said, helps with sense of smell and taste. 00:21:06.153 --> 00:21:08.417 It also helps with digestive juices. 00:21:08.417 --> 00:21:17.070 So if your digestive juices are not revved up, you're not that hungry, it doesn't taste that nice, it doesn't taste that good or smell that good. 00:21:17.070 --> 00:21:20.541 Right, what are you going to depend on? 00:21:20.541 --> 00:21:23.290 You're going to depend on some sort of sensory feedback. 00:21:23.290 --> 00:21:23.752 Why do it? 00:21:23.752 --> 00:21:25.441 Because otherwise food is a boring part of your day. 00:21:25.441 --> 00:21:25.803 Yeah, why do it? 00:21:25.803 --> 00:21:29.612 Food is a boring part of your day, yeah. 00:21:29.612 --> 00:21:29.892 Why do it so? 00:21:29.892 --> 00:21:37.461 Partly when the zinc is really rather low, then this can magnify that need for that sensory feedback. 00:21:37.461 --> 00:21:41.965 But zinc is the second most abundant mineral in your central nervous system. 00:21:41.965 --> 00:21:58.336 So over time, not only this is what we found in our clinic, not only does it help with sense of smell and taste and the digestion, so things feel comfortable in the tummy, smells nice, tastes nice, but also it helps to work on the whole sort of neurological system so things feel better too. 00:21:58.336 --> 00:22:03.492 So slurpy food or slimy food doesn't feel so bad A supplement. 00:22:03.613 --> 00:22:13.342 You know that having a deficiency or not being, you know, not having enough of that in your diet can have such a profound effect from you know, you know, wanting to eat the food. 00:22:13.342 --> 00:22:14.810 You know it's, it's, it's super interesting. 00:22:15.753 --> 00:22:17.598 Yeah, and the same with B vitamins. 00:22:17.598 --> 00:22:20.267 So you know I touched upon B12. 00:22:20.267 --> 00:22:34.296 So if a child is plant-based or mainly plant-based or just having pizza or nuggets, which is, you know, essentially yes, there is some protein in there, but very, very little you're probably going to become B12 deficient. 00:22:34.296 -->

00:22:37.541 Folate comes from greens and eggs. 00:22:37.541 --> 00:22:42.118 So lots of kids are egg free for allergies or whatever, and they're not eating their greens. 00:22:42.118 --> 00:22:51.730 So those two are really important neurological vitamins, again, that help massively with that whole sort of sensory side. 00:22:52.592 --> 00:22:57.642 So the reason the sensory systems out of whack can be many fold. 00:22:57.642 --> 00:23:02.401 I mean, obviously, you know we've talked about trauma, we've talked about all sorts of things. 00:23:02.401 --> 00:23:05.509 So this is just one angle to think about. 00:23:05.509 --> 00:23:18.260 But if their diet is super restricted it's worth trying a b vitamin, you know, like a b complex, and seeing if over two to three months, that whole system is better regulated. 00:23:18.260 --> 00:23:27.773 So it's been found that these b vitamins and zinc and various other things like omega-3 and probiotics all help with this vagus nerve tone. 00:23:27.773 --> 00:23:39.670 So the vagus nerve is this wandering nerve that connects the back of your brain to your gut and it also goes to all your organs, um, and it is super important. 00:23:39.670 --> 00:23:50.529 It's like super highway that sends signals up and down all day and it essentially helps with so many of your ability, abilities to be able to emotionally regulate. 00:23:50.589 --> 00:23:51.152 It's your fight or flight. 00:23:51.152 --> 00:23:56.419 Major system as well, yeah exactly so, exactly exactly so. 00:23:56.459 --> 00:23:59.227 This vagal tone, and there's lots of things you can do. 00:23:59.227 --> 00:24:14.373 So why children hum, why children stim, why children often sing or whatever, or why music is so loved, is because it's very calming and very good at toning this vagal nerve. 00:24:14.373 --> 00:24:24.634 So low vagal tone in babies can mean that they're less cuddly, more socially anxious, you know, less likely to want to be in a crowd, etc. 00:24:24.634 --> 00:24:37.599 Less easy to soothe, for instance, whereas a baby with a higher vagus tone is sort of cozier, cuddlier, just easier to settle, more social, more smiley. 00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:47.112 So this can be from very early age and no one really knows why a specific baby is going to have a difference in their vagal nerve tone. 00:24:47.112 --> 00:24:51.041 Sometimes it's genetic, sometimes it's a birth trauma. 00:24:51.589 --> 00:24:53.857 So you know, whatever you know, there are lots of things going on. 00:24:53.857 --> 00:25:12.977 Sometimes you know they've been born and their gut microbiome doesn't develop properly, or maybe there are some slight shortfalls in their system, because even though mum is meant to give all their nutrients to the baby, sometimes there's still not quite enough for the baby or for some reason it hasn't got through. 00:25:12.977 --> 00:25:18.820 And there's so many genetic reasons and environmental reasons and so forth involved. 00:25:18.820 --> 00:25:21.499 So you know it's not pointing the blame at anyone. 00:25:21.499 --> 00:25:24.680 It's more just thinking this is what might be happening. 00:25:24.680 --> 00:25:26.393 So vagal tone. 00:25:26.393 --> 00:25:28.319 You know, as I said, there's lots of ways. 00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:31.160 It's why people have so got into cold swimming. 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:34.660 Now, some kids love water. 00:25:34.750 --> 00:26:00.365 I mean they would just jump into any pool any shower even in the middle of the winter, and they don't care Exactly exactly, but very often they'll be in a much better mood afterwards, and we know that cold water is so important for us, and even if they're not a bit reluctant for that, you could splash some on their face or even get their wrists or their ankles into a bit of. 00:26:00.384 --> 00:26:13.578 That's a yeah, really super interesting, because you don't really I wouldn't, I would, I would have equated that more with mood, but then you know how it can then connect also to your ability to eat food and to uh calm that down to a place where food becomes less challenging. 00:26:13.578 --> 00:26:19.730 So it's, it's, it's um taking concepts and ideas and applying them to eating, which is super interesting. 00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:25.842 Um, that goes beyond, uh, I think, what most uh parents are aware of. 00:26:25.842 --> 00:26:45.798 So it's um, what other advancements, or would you say, in research in the past year has really, you know, has there been anything in the nutritional landscape that's really jumped out to you since we last spoke, in terms of any research that you've been aware of, that, um, or that you've included in your book that parents might not be aware of? 00:26:46.821 --> 00:26:55.218 So, first of all, there are relatively new studies that have come out about the link between ultra processed foods and child development. 00:26:55.218 --> 00:27:09.781 It's not pointing specific fingers yet at ADHD or dyslexia or autism, but it's just about general overall development, like locomotor skills, hopping, skipping, jumping, physical activity. 00:27:09.781 --> 00:27:15.692 You know SEND needs, higher SEND needs, for instance these things are. 00:27:15.692 --> 00:27:29.226 What the research papers are finding is that the children that have more ultra-processed food are more likely to have higher SEND needs, higher mental health needs, less able to do the sport or the activities. 00:27:29.246 --> 00:27:30.126 Is it a chicken or an egg? 00:27:30.126 --> 00:27:39.784 Do kids with neurodiversities eat more ultra processed foods or does ultra processed foods bring out more challenges of neurodiversity or has that kind of? 00:27:39.784 --> 00:27:41.557 Is that a bit not clear yet? 00:27:42.549 --> 00:27:44.974 Yeah it's not clear yet. 00:27:44.974 --> 00:27:52.621 I mean, at the end of the day, you know, most parents say look, I've tried my hardest to give them the healthiest food possible and they just won't eat

it. 00:27:52.621 --> 00:27:56.089 And that can be because of all the reasons we were talking about earlier. 00:27:56.089 --> 00:28:03.223 Things I didn't mention were things like long-term reflux, long-term constipation, gut inflammation, malabsorption. 00:28:03.223 --> 00:28:10.723 Those things are really important too to address because those are secondary things which can come alongside the neurodivergence. 00:28:10.723 --> 00:28:14.221 Something like 86% of children. 00:28:14.883 --> 00:28:16.227 Wow, that's super interesting. 00:28:16.227 --> 00:28:22.351 We really battle with constipation in our household and it's also, you know, uh cerebral palsy as well, which my daughter has. 00:28:22.351 --> 00:28:25.097 It's also can can be linked to that, so that that's a. 00:28:25.358 --> 00:28:41.398 That's a startling uh amount of gut problems to to, to, to be, um, correlated to neurodiversity, um yeah, so it's a big thing whether it's I mean, this includes allergies, because allergies come from the gut, so as well, you know. 00:28:41.398 --> 00:28:47.294 So there are a lot, lots of things to sort of consider, um, so I think that's really important. 00:28:47.294 --> 00:28:57.385 Um, the other thing is there's been a lot of research done at Brighton University on the link between neurodivergence and chronic pain. 00:28:57.385 --> 00:29:04.604 So hypermobility, which can lead to hypermobile joints, muscle pain, fibromyalgia, etc. 00:29:04.604 --> 00:29:06.616 So that's been very interesting. 00:29:06.616 --> 00:29:12.951 That's been very interesting. 00:29:12.971 --> 00:29:15.700 Equally, neurodivergence and long-term fatigue finding a very high number of children, by the time they're 18, you know, are burnt out. 00:29:15.700 --> 00:29:18.912 They're basically exhausted and unable to function well. 00:29:18.912 --> 00:29:20.715 So that's a big thing. 00:29:20.715 --> 00:29:30.804 Um, it's something I can very much relate to with me, um, and it's something that I've, you know, I guess energy management has been one of my hardest things throughout my life. 00:29:30.804 --> 00:29:36.701 And then I'm just trying to think of the latest one that came up. 00:29:36.701 --> 00:29:44.737 Yes, it was linking neurodiversity and anxiety, which obviously does, and then, but also the hypermobility. 00:29:44.737 --> 00:29:48.641 So those with hypermobility were more likely to have anxiety because the. 00:29:48.641 --> 00:29:53.981 You know, I've been reading that research too with Dr Eccles and I've asked her to come on the podcast. 00:29:54.130 --> 00:29:55.917 She's going to come, I think, february of next year. 00:29:55.917 --> 00:29:58.799 She's a busy lady but it's super fascinating. 00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:25.038 It's such a small research field but the more they understand about it and just how this is all connected and how our bodies are all connected, it's going to hopefully help children as they grow into adults, as you say, to be able to see and then to help to support and scaffold before it becomes more of an issue as they grow into adulthood and you have burnout and things like that and problems with your joints and anxiety and other things. 00:30:25.038 --> 00:30:33.440 So to be able to understand how these are all interrelated and how we can actually support and help children and recognize these things. 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.616 I think it's an extremely interesting time from a research perspective and what they're discovering. 00:30:38.676 --> 00:30:53.953 So, yes, I think you've hit all of the ones that have been on my radar that I've been reading too, so it's lovely to have had you here today on our podcast celebrating the 100th episode of the SEND Parenting Podcast. 00:30:53.953 --> 00:30:59.731 Looking forward into the next year because we're almost into 2025, if you can believe it. 00:30:59.731 --> 00:31:01.758 What things are in your pipeline? 00:31:01.758 --> 00:31:04.671 What's coming up for you in the world of neurodiversity? 00:31:06.152 --> 00:31:07.413 Well, I'm just really lucky. 00:31:07.413 --> 00:31:17.959 I've been invited to lots of events, so school events, some bit of traveling so, yeah, my diary is looking pretty full for 2025. 00:31:17.959 --> 00:31:24.923 And, yeah, I'm really excited about spreading the world a bit more, as someone said about a year ago. 00:31:24.923 --> 00:31:29.987 They said, lucinda, you need to get out of your nature doc bubble, and so that's what I think I'm doing Excellent. 00:31:30.007 --> 00:31:33.212 Well, enjoy your time popping out and it sounds like you know. 00:31:33.212 --> 00:31:40.001 I just think that you know everyone should, when that book is back in print again which it sounds like it is that they should, you know go out and buy a copy of it. 00:31:40.001 --> 00:31:51.476 I know I will be, because it's sensible advice and it actually, you know, I the supplements until you can get the diet to a place where you maybe don't need the supplements anymore. 00:31:51.476 --> 00:31:58.701 So you know, it's all about promoting nutritional, healthy eating so that our childs have everything that they need to succeed in the best way that they can. 00:31:58.701 --> 00:32:02.401 So thank you for all that you do in terms of nutrition. 00:32:02.401 --> 00:32:04.708 It's education to me. 00:32:04.788 --> 00:32:16.218 I had someone on the podcast the other day actually it's this episode this week or a few weeks ago that was saying in medical school we're just not taught about nutrition. 00:32:16.218 --> 00:32:29.818 We're not, and it's so negligent, I think, and it's so great that there are nutritionists like yourself who can help medicine and doctors and parents to understand the importance of it. 00:32:29.818 --> 00:32:38.438 I mean, I am a complete proponent, but it's definitely something that's lacking in medicine and in the advice we get from our GPs because they haven't been trained. 00:32:38.438 --> 00:32:44.104 So thank you for sharing with us your knowledge and expertise, because it's super, super important. 00:32:44.104 --> 00:32:45.769 Thank you so much. 00:32:45.769 --> 00:32:49.361 Thank you so much, olivia, it's been great and happy 100th birthday. 00:32:49.951 --> 00:32:52.400 Thank you for listening to Send Parenting Tribe. 00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:59.278 If you haven't already, please click on the link in the show notes to join us in the private Send Parenting WhatsApp community. 00:32:59.278 --> 00:33:09.143 It's been wonderful to be able to communicate with everyone in the community and for us to join together to help each other to navigate challenges and to also celebrate successes. 00:33:09.143 --> 00:33:30.787 Wishing you and your family a really good week ahead, Thank you.