บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ The Rumination Bully: Why Fighting Back Can Make It Worse and What to Do Instead

now, you need to know for sure you're vulnerable to potentially be compulsively reasoning. 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:09.040 Now, that in and of itself, you know, not necessarily there are some very, you know, important, urgent types of situations where you you do need, you know, to think in that way. 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:21.600 But uh in a situation that isn't particularly externally urgent, um uh it's a it's a good kind of rule of thumb. 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:32.560 Um another thing to kind of look for is how much the person is thinking about it, how long they're spending thinking about it, are they coming to any answers? 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:37.199 Um, or are they never kind of reaching a conclusion? 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:52.800 Or if they are coming to answers, do those answers uh hold basically, or do they end up coming back to the reasoning uh when kind of doubt doubt creeps in and kind of start all over again? 00:06:53.439 --> 00:07:04.639 Uh I would say it there's a kind of a hamster wheel feeling to compulsive reasoning, um, where you're you're expending a lot of energy, but you're really not getting anywhere. 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:10.160 Um and you you want to get off the hamster wheel oftentimes. 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:15.439 Sometimes you can you can be desperate to get off the hamster wheel, uh, but you you can't. 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.959 You you don't know how. 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:20.879 Um so so those are kind of important distinctions. 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:29.519 A lot of people say, but how do I know, you know, that this time I I don't need to be thinking about it right now. 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:40.000 The truth of the matter is that when a person is feeling an intense sense of urgency and desperation, they're probably not doing their best thinking at that time anyway. 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:51.839 So uh you kind of can't go wrong using non-engagement right now until you know I you know I'm I'm in a better place uh to deal with this, perhaps. 00:07:52.079 --> 00:08:04.639 Oftentimes what happens is uh a person never never comes back to it when the when the anxiety, the the urgency has subsided, it tells, yeah. 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:16.399 Good good framework, also good little disclaimer that it could be worth a shot even if you're not seeing the degrees of urgency that you would need. 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:16.959 Yes. 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:29.680 If it's a subject matter that you where you find your you feel like you're overthinking about it, you're coming back to it again and again, you just feel kind of stuck, there doesn't necessarily have to be a high degree of urgency. 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:40.320 Um but generally there would be some urgency, which is one of the things that's pushing the person back to revisit it again and again, again. 00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:41.279 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:48.480 Um how do you differentiate between obsessing and maybe even intrusive thoughts? 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:52.159 Like in your mind, how do you uh separate those three things? 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:53.919 That's a really good question. 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.240 So different people have different uh ways of thinking about this. 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:04.639 Some people would consider all intrusive thoughts um the same thing as obsessing. 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:16.399 You can look at an intrusive thought as um anything that that you you know you really don't want to be thinking about, yet you you are. 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:43.840 It could be an image too, um, it could be um really could be anything, uh, an idea, um uh thoughts about this terrible thing's gonna happen, something that is ego dystonic, meaning it's not in line with your values, it doesn't feel like something that um you want to be doing uh or that is ultimately helpful. 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:45.279 It's driven out of fear. 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:47.600 You're doing it because you're afraid. 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:59.279 While I think of an intrusive thought as more of like a one sentence or like I said, like an image or a word where an obsessing involves all of that. 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:12.559 Um but uh I think of it as more kind of like oh no, this bad thing, you know, this is gonna what if this happens, I need to do something about this. 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.759 That's the the kind of obsessing part. 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:32.159 And then the when it comes to compulsive reasoning, the the compulsive part is the trying to figure out a reason what to do uh with the fear, what to do about it, how to resolve it, trying to get some kind of an answer. 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:47.519 So, so within the the whole kind of process of compulsive reasoning, there there are obsessions in there, but the whole process itself, with the it's like a back and forth mental ping-pong kind of thing, really. 00:10:47.919 --> 00:11:01.679 Um, the whole process is uh undertaken to strive to to grasp for an answer, um, which is which is you can think of it as a behavior, it's a mental behavior. 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:07.120 You're striving for something, you're trying to achieve something, and that's the compulsive part. 00:11:45.429 --> 00:11:45.750 Okay. 00:11:45.990 --> 00:11:47.589 Yeah, that's really helpful. 00:11:47.829 --> 00:11:59.029 So you might see pieces of all three at any given time, but the uh compulsive reasoning part is really like that next step of like, and what do I do about it? 00:11:59.110 --> 00:12:02.709 And how do I exact how do I solve for that? 00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:06.709 Okay, I loved um I the dead man's rule. 00:12:06.789 --> 00:12:08.149 I'm glad that you talked about that. 00:12:08.230 --> 00:12:11.750 In my mind, I was thinking it's also similar to like the toddler rule. 00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:12.709 Exactly. 00:12:13.029 --> 00:12:16.629 If we tell them not to do it, that's the first thing that's gonna happen. 00:12:17.350 --> 00:12:32.389 Really, and for for

for the for our folks that we're talking about that are so action-oriented and really want to take an action, do something, it it makes a lot of sense that it would it would just feel more useful. 00:12:32.709 --> 00:12:34.629 And uh oftentimes more doable. 00:12:34.949 --> 00:12:37.189 Um like how do I just not do anything? 00:12:37.429 --> 00:12:39.909 Um it's helpful with with with that. 00:12:40.069 --> 00:12:48.549 We do know that the more important something is to a person to be able to suppress, to not think about, the harder it is to suppress that. 00:12:48.789 --> 00:13:03.509 So when it's something really, really important to you, you know, uh you some if it's driving you crazy, I don't want to think about this during my, I don't know, my daughter's birthday or whatever, um, it's gonna be even harder. 00:13:03.669 --> 00:13:09.269 You know, the more important it is to a person to be able to not think about something, the harder it is. 00:13:09.589 --> 00:13:16.549 I think it might be helpful here to give a few examples of like maybe the common clusters. 00:13:16.709 --> 00:13:25.350 I think um for m the ones that I see most often would be health related, needing to take a health action. 00:13:25.589 --> 00:13:28.629 Maybe we'd call it the same umbrella, but sleep related. 00:13:28.949 --> 00:13:35.189 So not being able to sleep, but for keeping ourselves then wound up and concerned about the sleep. 00:13:35.589 --> 00:13:55.589 And then I'm also thinking uh for parents or new parents, kind of safety related about keeping about the kids, and maybe post-COVID, we saw an uptick of this too, thinking about how to engage the baby, but also keeping them safe and keeping them healthy. 00:13:55.750 --> 00:14:08.309 And then I think the last one dating and predicting how to show up in a relationship, in a new relationship, or wanting to date and kind of checking how did the date go? 00:14:08.469 --> 00:14:09.909 Did I perform okay? 00:14:10.149 --> 00:14:11.909 What is are they gonna call me? 00:14:12.069 --> 00:14:12.870 Should I call them? 00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:14.629 Right of thinking. 00:14:15.589 --> 00:14:26.629 For all of those situations, and I would say particularly health and and dating, no matter how long you spend thinking about, you're not gonna know. 00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:34.469 You can you can think about it for hours, and well, it might be positive because of this, but no, it's probably negative because of this. 00:14:34.789 --> 00:14:49.509 Without the information, you're just not gonna know, but you you can and you are going to suffer more and get uh deeper into that pit of anxiety by trying to know. 00:14:49.750 --> 00:14:53.429 There's just in that type of situation, there's there's missing information. 00:14:53.589 --> 00:14:59.350 Same thing with um with the dating situation, you're just not gonna know at that time. 00:14:59.909 --> 00:15:14.549 Um, and so rather than trying to know, which is impossible, if you keep ruminating about it, um, you might need something else. 00:15:14.709 --> 00:15:23.429 And so one of the non-engagement responses uh it's just uh affirmation of uh uncertainty, you know, agreeing that you don't know. 00:15:23.589 --> 00:15:26.949 I I don't know right now, and I'm not gonna know right now. 00:15:27.110 --> 00:15:34.149 I'm not going to waste my time and energy continuing to think about it. 00:15:34.389 --> 00:15:39.350 Um, but it's actually even worse than wasting your time uh for for many people. 00:15:39.429 --> 00:15:41.589 It it actually makes you more anxious. 00:15:41.909 --> 00:15:50.230 So it's an acknowledgement of the reality that I am not gonna know what it's gonna be with certainty right now. 00:15:50.469 --> 00:15:52.069 That's just the fact of the matter. 00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:59.829 And so the person's response, you know, and let's say the thought is, what if this sickness really is something to worry about? 00:15:59.909 --> 00:16:02.069 And I think I do need to go to the doctor. 00:16:02.309 --> 00:16:06.789 Well, right now, like in this moment, um, I'm not gonna know for sure. 00:16:06.949 --> 00:16:10.949 That might be a situation where the person does have to make a decision, right? 00:16:11.110 --> 00:16:19.990 And um, but in a case like that where a decision is needed, the person can give themselves like a period of time. 00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:33.189 I can think about this for 10 minutes, recognizing that outside of that 10 minutes or even like that five minutes, probably not longer than that, there's not any more information that's gonna come up. 00:16:33.350 --> 00:16:35.509 There's nothing new that's gonna happen. 00:16:35.669 --> 00:16:39.990 But another situation, let's say where you're waiting for test results, you are not gonna know. 00:16:40.230 --> 00:16:43.350 You have the thoughts like, well, what if it's what if it's this? 00:16:43.669 --> 00:16:45.029 I'm not gonna know right now. 00:16:45.189 --> 00:16:48.069 I don't know right now, and I'm not gonna know for sure right now. 00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:52.949 And then, of course, you know, that usually the anxiety is not just gonna stop there, right? 00:16:53.269 --> 00:17:02.069 You know, kind of press on and be like, well, it would be terrible if it's, you know, you should think about like that family history or whatever. 00:17:02.309 --> 00:17:05.670 And then it's just like, I'm not gonna know for sure right now. 00:17:05.829 --> 00:17:09.750 You're just reaffirming that, and that's all it gets, that's all the anxiety gets. 00:17:09.910 --> 00:17:25.990 It doesn't get um justification or um defense uh or like kind of putting bringing more information into it that for the anxiety to then just use and kind of throw back at the person. 00:17:26.150 --> 00:17:28.710 And that's that's just one of the non-engagement responses. 00:17:29.029 --> 00:17:32.150 Um, but in general, that's how they're used. 00:17:32.390 --> 00:17:42.070 Um you the kind of

expect actually that the anxiety is gonna try to, it's gonna persist, it's gonna try to keep pulling you in. 00:17:42.310 --> 00:17:53.269 Um, but just like uh like in a court of law where one of the attorneys says asked and answered, and then the opposing attorney tries again and asked and answered. 00:17:53.350 --> 00:17:54.070 Like that's all it gets. 00:17:54.470 --> 00:17:55.590 I love that too. 00:17:55.830 --> 00:17:56.390 Yeah. 00:17:56.630 --> 00:17:57.269 Yeah. 00:17:57.590 --> 00:18:07.110 Uh there's sort of like a broken record element to that asked and answered where it becomes very predictable. 00:18:07.350 --> 00:18:18.870 And once you strengthen that muscle, it's very predictable that any angle that that anxiety tries, you're being kind of apparent in the checkout line. 00:18:19.110 --> 00:18:20.390 Can I have the candy bar? 00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:35.350 No, it's gonna be dinner, and then we give that broken record kind of response that asked and answered, asked and answered, because anytime we deviate, we can kind of prolong and extend that dialogue. 00:18:35.670 --> 00:18:39.590 Yes, um, reaction or any new response. 00:18:39.990 --> 00:18:40.550 Right, right. 00:18:41.350 --> 00:18:44.150 You're not the toddler in the in the grocery store line. 00:18:44.310 --> 00:18:48.070 What happens first is the the kid escalates, right? 00:18:48.310 --> 00:18:50.630 So that's called an extinction burst, right? 00:18:50.710 --> 00:18:53.029 The the kid is is testing, right? 00:18:53.190 --> 00:19:00.950 Testing the parent says no, you yell louder, you know, beg more, you know, throw yourself on the floor, whatever. 00:19:01.590 --> 00:19:10.550 And then if the parent gives in at that point, well, the the kid has learned, okay, like I need to I need to scream louder, and then I'll get what I want. 00:19:10.790 --> 00:19:18.070 So oftentimes the anxiety increases, the thoughts become even more catastrophic. 00:19:18.310 --> 00:19:24.950 You can think of it kind of as it's almost like the anxiety is saying, you know, you you have to think about this now, but what about this? 00:19:25.269 --> 00:19:40.710 You basically hold your ground and you do not give it um anything other than a non-engagement type of response, uh, just like the toddler eventually will see, you know, okay, this is not not working right now. 00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:43.750 It's the same thing with the anxiety. 00:19:43.990 --> 00:19:51.509 Um, but to to speak to um that bully metaphor, oftentimes this is this is used with OCD. 00:19:51.670 --> 00:19:53.509 It does kind of operate like a bully. 00:19:53.590 --> 00:20:07.670 It's trying to intimidate you, and um, you know, your engagement with it um is really the thing that um feeds it, right? 00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:21.670 Now when I talk about a bully, I I don't mean it in a in a kind of a scary type of way where you're giving your anxiety this this like extra power as it like this it's this big, you know, scary thing. 00:20:21.830 --> 00:20:23.029 It feels that way. 00:20:23.190 --> 00:20:29.670 It definitely feels that way, and and that's how bullies, you know, feel too very intimidating. 00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:37.509 But oftentimes with bullies, uh when the bully is not getting engagement, right? 00:20:37.670 --> 00:20:45.670 Like they're not getting a reaction or you know, the attention that they wanted or whatever it is, they back off. 00:20:46.070 --> 00:21:11.269 Um and so knowing how to deal strategically with a bully, you know, not fighting with the bully, or as in that video that you're gonna link, you know, not defending yourself, not arguing back, um, but instead uh putting out there these assertive answers um that allow you to respond. 00:21:11.430 --> 00:21:20.070 So you're not um you're not in the position of kind of like a victim or or being trod upon, right? 00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:28.710 But you are but these are the types of answers that ideally leave the bully with not much to say. 00:21:29.590 --> 00:21:33.990 Um so so in that way, anxiety is is like a bully. 00:21:34.070 --> 00:21:47.830 It's kind of uh on the outside, big and bad, it feels very scary, but but what we see is if we approach it, right, rather than running from it, scrambling compulsive reasoning, rumination. 00:21:47.910 --> 00:21:51.350 You're you're running from the anxiety, you're trying to resolve it. 00:21:51.590 --> 00:21:52.710 That makes it worse. 00:21:52.870 --> 00:21:55.990 It's like being uh like being chased by a dog, right? 00:21:56.070 --> 00:21:59.350 If you run from a dog, it is definitely gonna chase you. 00:21:59.430 --> 00:22:02.470 It's the best way to get a dog to chase you, is to run from it. 00:22:03.110 --> 00:22:06.550 Uh and it's the same, it's the same, same with this. 00:22:06.790 --> 00:22:11.110 So, a metaphor that I like to use is the Wizard of Oz. 00:22:11.350 --> 00:22:27.029 Um, most people have seen that movie, and uh the part where they're in the in the room with the the big green head that is Oz, you know, he's he's very scary looking and they're shaking, and uh and he sends them away on a basically what he thinks is an impossible task. 00:22:27.110 --> 00:22:27.910 He sends them away. 00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:30.070 He does not want them to come closer. 00:22:30.550 --> 00:22:37.269 Uh and when they come back and and Toto actually runs behind the little curtain. 00:22:38.070 --> 00:22:41.670 What's revealed is that it's just a little old man behind the curtain. 00:22:41.750 --> 00:22:46.710 And they never would have seen that had they kept running from it. 00:22:46.790 --> 00:23:11.430 You have to basically facing it, approaching it, um, is the thing that shows you oftentimes what felt so scary and powerful, it crumbles when it is not fed with our uh grasping and scrambling and striving, which is intuitive, right? 00:23:11.509 --> 00:23:12.470 That's that's the problem. 00:23:12.550 --> 00:23:17.830 It's the intuitive thing to do is to try

to find a way to feel better, right? 00:23:17.910 --> 00:23:25.910 So anxiety has uh an upper the upper hand in that in that the intuitive thing to do is generally the thing that feeds anxiety. 00:23:26.070 --> 00:23:35.910 Um but when it doesn't have that, uh what's revealed oftentimes is it is a little old man behind the the the curtain. 00:23:36.070 --> 00:23:38.390 Um it's it loses its power. 00:23:38.790 --> 00:23:39.430 Yeah. 00:23:39.750 --> 00:24:03.269 It it feels like the extra layer of like, I don't know if it's irony here, is that there have probably been rewards for continuing to comb over these issues and and folks feel like this is my superpower, that I can get to the bottom of these things, that I can see all the angles. 00:24:03.590 --> 00:24:05.269 I'm actually really skilled at that. 00:24:05.350 --> 00:24:08.310 I've I've gotten reinforcement for it in the past. 00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:24.070 And so it feels almost like letting down a part of their identity or their safety to get to the behind the curtain would feel like really a letting go of this is who I am and this is a great strength of mine. 00:24:24.470 --> 00:24:25.190 Right, right. 00:24:25.350 --> 00:24:40.310 Well, I and I think it's it's important to kind of clarify if a person, you know, is enjoying or you know, or or or engaging in the thinking because they want to. 00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:48.230 It it's what feels right and warranted to them, versus feeling like they're kind of trapped, right? 00:24:48.390 --> 00:24:50.390 Like trapped on a hamster wheel. 00:24:50.550 --> 00:24:53.590 That's it's a different, it's different, a different situation. 00:24:53.670 --> 00:25:09.110 You know, that there's nothing wrong with you know deep thinking as long as it's the person is the one driving that process, as opposed to the anxiety being the thing that is driving that process. 00:25:09.509 --> 00:25:14.630 Um but it is hard to let go of because it feels it can feel safer. 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:14.790 Yeah. 00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:17.990 And if you think it through a million times over, it's safer. 00:25:18.150 --> 00:25:19.830 Um, it's really not true. 00:25:19.990 --> 00:25:28.390 There's only a finite amount of you know conclusion that you can uh even even get to. 00:25:28.710 --> 00:25:33.910 Um uh so it it it it's a safety behavior, right? 00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:36.230 It feels like you're keeping yourself safe. 00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:43.029 Yeah when in reality the behavior is feeding the anxiety. 00:25:43.269 --> 00:25:47.750 It's that scrambling, it's that desperation that's feeding the anxiety. 00:25:48.070 --> 00:25:50.470 Yeah, I think that's a great differentiation. 00:25:50.710 --> 00:26:10.790 I think because for a lot of people it feels important, you know, and I don't know if they would say it feels good, but it's also leading to other problems that comfortable or familiar, maybe, but they re they get to a point where they realize like, wow, this is keeping me up, it's making me sick, it's leading to panic. 00:26:11.509 --> 00:26:15.830 Um and and I'm no better, you know, better for it. 00:26:15.910 --> 00:26:18.950 I don't I still don't have the answers or I still don't have that certainty. 00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:20.150 Exactly. 00:26:20.550 --> 00:26:25.430 A person can end up feeling like they're doing the responsible thing, right? 00:26:25.590 --> 00:26:35.190 So that's that's the reinforcement um when a person can feel like they're being irresponsible if they're not um you know agonizing over it. 00:26:35.509 --> 00:26:35.750 Yeah. 00:26:36.070 --> 00:26:46.310 Um but I would say that is a I would say that's a lie kind of put out there by the anxiety bully to you know to keep you hooked. 00:26:46.470 --> 00:27:11.830 Uh you're bad if you, you know, you know, you you know, what if uh you had just thought this through more than XYZ wouldn't have happened to, you know, it's a guilt, uh, hyper responsibility, all of these things are oftentimes involved, and recognizing those things as hallmarks of the anxiety bully uh is is important. 00:27:12.710 --> 00:27:17.430 It can be very helpful to uh rec I call it recognizing no surprise. 00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:31.350 And certain things, you have certain thoughts, and this is super common in OCD, um, but I think this happens to everyone with uh any kind of um significant anxiety. 00:27:31.750 --> 00:27:34.790 Certain thoughts are are very predictable, right? 00:27:35.029 --> 00:27:39.990 So for one person it might be that that feeling of responsibility, you know. 00:27:40.070 --> 00:27:42.630 Well, I have all these people counting on me. 00:27:42.790 --> 00:27:51.269 Um, you know, it it is appropriate to uh you know agonize over this for hours and and hours and hours. 00:27:51.590 --> 00:28:02.390 Um it's I would say uh that's kind of like the the the hook, and and it's no surprise, right? 00:28:02.550 --> 00:28:07.910 Like if for one particular person it's always what it would be irresponsible not to. 00:28:08.150 --> 00:28:16.470 Or for another person, um, it might be something like, well, you know, if you just think it through a little, like maybe you'll get to the answer. 00:28:16.630 --> 00:28:21.029 These are kind of patterns, and so if you can recognize them, right? 00:28:21.110 --> 00:28:29.750 So when that voice in your head says, you're being irresponsible if you don't, oh, no surprise, no surprise you'd go there, anxiety. 00:28:29.830 --> 00:28:32.470 Like basically that was as predictable as the sun rising. 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:33.830 No surprise there. 00:28:33.910 --> 00:28:36.790 Um, you know, could have seen that coming a mile away. 00:28:37.190 --> 00:28:48.230 And that can be very helpful because um, with certain thoughts, right, uh, you know, oh, something terrible could happen, you're being irresponsible, you're letting people down. 00:28:48.390 --> 00:28:56.550 You know, we we we have I call the oh no reaction sometimes,

like, and then we default, right, and do something about it, right? 00:28:56.790 --> 00:29:01.190 So recognizing no surprise, like, wait a minute, like this is not new. 00:29:01.350 --> 00:29:04.310 This is like I could have seen this coming a mile away. 00:29:04.630 --> 00:29:11.110 It it interrupts that um that that default into like do something. 00:29:11.269 --> 00:29:12.550 I need to do something. 00:29:12.790 --> 00:29:13.029 Yeah. 00:29:13.590 --> 00:29:27.670 Having this response be so familiar that it's hard, it's hard to let go of it because it feels like this is my intuition telling me this bad thing is going to happen if I don't, versus like, oh, it's really just a real well-rehearsed mechanism. 00:29:28.070 --> 00:29:29.750 Absolutely, absolutely. 00:29:29.910 --> 00:29:35.029 And so in that type of situation, you know, identifying patterns, right? 00:29:35.110 --> 00:29:42.310 Like familiar patterns, you know, if it's say worry about a family member's safety or something like that, right? 00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:49.430 Uh, if that's a common, you know, thing that comes up, it's easier to recognize. 00:29:49.590 --> 00:30:05.670 But uh it's also the type of situation with with that particular example that thinking it through, reasoning about it, um is not going to really uh do anything. 00:30:05.910 --> 00:30:10.630 Now, I'm I can already think of the the but um you know response to that. 00:30:10.870 --> 00:30:18.390 Well, but you know, if I if I did call my child's friend and you know found out, then maybe this would keep them safe. 00:30:18.550 --> 00:30:38.310 Um so it when it's not OCD uh or or you know um I would say like clinical uh clinical GAD or uh when it's really I think more just worrying, you have to think about um, you know, what uh what is the cost of what you're doing? 00:30:38.550 --> 00:30:40.470 Are you in the driver's seat? 00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:47.269 Um and and I mean and that can actually you can end up compulsively reasoning about that too. 00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:52.230 But then I go back to that urgency and desperation kind of rule of thumb. 00:30:52.470 --> 00:31:02.870 Um, you know, and and knowing, you know, what kind of as I was saying, like what kind of things get you, you know, that that can be that can be helpful. 00:31:03.110 --> 00:31:03.430 Yeah. 00:31:04.390 --> 00:31:04.630 Yeah. 00:31:05.110 --> 00:31:10.870 Could you give me the next NERS and an example? 00:31:11.350 --> 00:31:12.150 Yeah, yeah. 00:31:12.390 --> 00:31:17.830 So uh the first non-engagement response I usually teach people is the gentlest one. 00:31:18.070 --> 00:31:20.070 Um, I call it the gentlest one. 00:31:20.310 --> 00:31:21.110 It's hard, right? 00:31:21.190 --> 00:31:25.430 It's like it's hard to say, uh, I don't know if that's gonna happen. 00:31:25.590 --> 00:31:26.950 It's very difficult. 00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:38.150 Um uh and actually just uh before I move on from that, I I want to say too that the the tone and the attitude matters so much, right? 00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:42.070 So you're not saying, I don't, I don't know, I'm not gonna know. 00:31:42.310 --> 00:31:46.390 It's more of a it's more of like a I don't know, and I'm not gonna know. 00:31:46.550 --> 00:31:48.790 That so that's very that's very important. 00:31:48.950 --> 00:31:55.670 The tone, the you you don't want to be um kind of responding like you're like you're a victim. 00:31:55.750 --> 00:31:59.029 Uh it's the exact opposite is is the purpose. 00:31:59.269 --> 00:32:02.150 So, so back to uh affirmation of anxiety. 00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:08.630 I call it affirmation of anxiety, which is that you're you're just agreeing and acknowledging, yes, I feel anxious. 00:32:08.790 --> 00:32:11.509 Yes, that's a really anxiety-provoking idea. 00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:24.310 So instead of um, you know, if the thought is something like, uh, well, you know, what if um, you know, I don't know, what if uh I lose my job, right? 00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:27.910 Um, that's a very anxiety-provoking idea. 00:32:27.990 --> 00:32:28.950 It certainly is. 00:32:29.269 --> 00:32:30.630 You know, and then it's going to continue. 00:32:30.790 --> 00:32:37.910 Well, like maybe you should think about, maybe you should finish this project early, or you know, if you don't, like your boss could be upset with you. 00:32:38.070 --> 00:32:40.310 That's an anxiety-provoking idea, too. 00:32:40.790 --> 00:32:49.750 Um you know, well, you know, that would be terrible if you lost your job, because you know, you definitely an anxiety-provoking idea. 00:32:49.910 --> 00:33:03.670 So what you're doing is you're you're just acknowledging the anxiety that's already there, it's already there, instead of being in the position of trying to get rid of it, trying to get rid of it, trying to get rid of it. 00:33:04.070 --> 00:33:05.029 You're agreeing. 00:33:05.269 --> 00:33:12.150 And that in that way, you're you're it gives you it's something to still to strategically agree to. 00:33:12.310 --> 00:33:14.950 And that's very important with the non-engagement responses. 00:33:15.110 --> 00:33:18.710 There's an element of strategic agreement, right? 00:33:19.110 --> 00:33:22.310 So, yes, that's a really anxiety-provoking thought. 00:33:22.390 --> 00:33:23.509 It most definitely is. 00:33:23.670 --> 00:33:29.190 Or, yeah, um, I am not gonna know right now, or some of the other non-engagement responses. 00:33:29.350 --> 00:33:31.910 Yeah, maybe anything's possible, right? 00:33:31.990 --> 00:33:55.670 There's this strategic agreement that is um central to non-engagement responses, um, that uh is particularly um difficult, I guess you could say, for the anxiety bully to then come back at you with, because you're essentially agreeing in some way, right? 00:33:55.990 --> 00:33:58.790 Like, yeah, that would be really bad, you know. 00:33:58.870 --> 00:34:06.870 Um, and the bully video that you mentioned is a great um example of of the power of strategic

agreeing. 00:34:07.190 --> 00:34:09.909 Not like a victim, though, not in that way at all. 00:34:10.070 --> 00:34:12.150 It's strategic, it's masterful. 00:34:12.710 --> 00:34:16.230 Uh any kind of element of agreement we can get in there. 00:34:16.469 --> 00:34:28.469 So I would, you know, tell somebody not not just a that's an anxiety-provoking idea, even better if there's, yeah, that really is like you're agreeing with it. 00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:36.789 Um, and and kind of by doing that, you're uh you're you're beating the anxiety at its own game, which is exactly what we want to do. 00:34:37.190 --> 00:34:37.590 Yeah. 00:34:37.829 --> 00:34:49.509 Um, I have told this story for like decades now, but in an adolescent group, there was a a kid that all the other kids really grew to love. 00:34:49.670 --> 00:34:51.109 And it was exactly for that. 00:34:51.269 --> 00:34:55.670 A different kid said, Cool shirt, do they sell men's clothes where you bought that? 00:34:55.909 --> 00:34:59.670 Instead of saying, It doesn't even look like a women's shirt. 00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:00.949 What are you talking about? 00:35:01.109 --> 00:35:05.429 And the kid responded, That's the greatest compliment I've ever received. 00:35:05.670 --> 00:35:10.469 And the whole group was howling, including the one who had lodged the critique. 00:35:10.789 --> 00:35:16.389 And every day it was something like that where he made the funnier joke out of it. 00:35:16.869 --> 00:35:19.670 And I definitely hear elements of that. 00:35:19.989 --> 00:35:20.230 Exactly. 00:35:20.469 --> 00:35:25.190 He found a way to kind of to go with it, right, rather than against it. 00:35:26.069 --> 00:35:34.389 Um and uh and and that that's that's such an important um thing with if with anxiety treatment and anxiety work. 00:35:34.549 --> 00:35:37.349 Um there's there's something called a Chinese finger puzzle. 00:35:37.429 --> 00:35:38.549 I don't know if you've ever heard of that. 00:35:38.629 --> 00:35:45.750 It's like a little straw, yeah, right, where you put your fingers in, and the more you try to pull them out, the tighter it gets. 00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:49.829 Really, the the way you get your fingers by pushing them together, right? 00:35:50.149 --> 00:35:54.069 So you're you're not going against it, you're not fighting it. 00:35:54.230 --> 00:35:57.829 It's doing the opposite, kind of going with it strategically. 00:35:58.389 --> 00:36:02.309 That is the thing that is setting you free. 00:36:02.949 --> 00:36:04.789 Um you mentioned humor. 00:36:05.190 --> 00:36:05.349 Yeah. 00:36:05.670 --> 00:36:05.829 Yeah. 00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:11.589 If anxiety is trying to warn you, then to acknowledge, like, yeah, great warning. 00:36:11.750 --> 00:36:12.069 Thanks. 00:36:12.230 --> 00:36:16.149 Yep, I can see how that would be an anxiety-provoking thought. 00:36:16.309 --> 00:36:16.549 Yeah. 00:36:16.710 --> 00:36:16.869 Sure. 00:36:17.109 --> 00:36:17.589 About humor. 00:36:17.909 --> 00:36:18.149 Sure. 00:36:18.469 --> 00:36:19.269 Sure, exactly. 00:36:19.429 --> 00:36:29.109 Yes, but so you know, that's a getting humor in there is a a really good way to stay in that kind of masterful strategic place, right? 00:36:29.429 --> 00:36:41.029 So one of the other non-engagement responses is affirmation of difficulty, which you know, when when people first hear this, you know, without the explanation, it can seem like, what? 00:36:41.190 --> 00:36:42.469 That is so cruel. 00:36:42.710 --> 00:36:44.309 You know, how could you say that to someone? 00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:48.710 How could you so really what it is is agreeing, like, yeah, that would really suck. 00:36:49.029 --> 00:37:01.190 Um but the reason that it's uh it's effective as opposed to super depressing and scary is because you're saying it in a way, right? 00:37:01.269 --> 00:37:05.589 Like, so well, you you could have cancer, uh, or what if you have cancer? 00:37:05.829 --> 00:37:08.869 Well, like, duh, that would suck. 00:37:09.029 --> 00:37:14.069 Like, so matter of fact, you're treating the question like it's a dumb question, right? 00:37:14.629 --> 00:37:19.190 Um, it like over the the answer is is obvious, right? 00:37:19.269 --> 00:37:22.549 Like, so what if uh, you know, what if I get fired, right? 00:37:23.029 --> 00:37:24.149 Uh that would suck. 00:37:24.230 --> 00:37:25.750 Like, what do you mean, what if you get fired? 00:37:25.829 --> 00:37:28.230 Like, that'll be terrible, like dumb question. 00:37:28.629 --> 00:37:30.789 You know, so like a little sarcastic. 00:37:30.949 --> 00:37:36.389 Uh, and it's thought it, it's that's really what the question is asking. 00:37:36.549 --> 00:37:38.069 Anxiety doesn't want it answered that way. 00:37:38.149 --> 00:37:42.230 And was, well, this would happen, and this would happen, and what if this happens? 00:37:42.469 --> 00:37:45.429 But what if I like well that would be really hard. 00:37:45.509 --> 00:37:47.589 Like that would be like dumb question. 00:37:48.149 --> 00:37:50.069 That's how how you can use it. 00:37:50.230 --> 00:37:53.269 Um, not everybody likes that non-engagement response. 00:37:53.349 --> 00:37:54.469 Some some people love it. 00:37:54.629 --> 00:38:17.190 Uh, you know, depend it you use what is what uh what's effective for you, but um, but that is a uh one where it's particularly important to use some um some humor in order to have it work for you and make it uh masterful where you know you're taking the reins by putting that out there. 00:38:17.509 --> 00:38:28.389 You're not giving you're not giving it your your energy, your time, your um, you know, the importance. 00:38:28.469 --> 00:38:36.069 You're not validating the the worry or the the what if uh with attention, right? 00:38:36.230 --> 00:38:50.629 So, you know, if we spend two hours worrying about, I don't know, um, you know, what if what if my car breaks down or you know, the you just validated that that worry. 00:38:50.710 -->

00:38:57.989 Like you're it's now gonna feel more possible and really like for your car to break down, right? 00:38:58.389 --> 00:39:04.230 Or let's say, let's say you're coming back from vacation and the worry is what if someone broke in, right? 00:39:04.309 --> 00:39:08.789 And you spend so much time thinking about did I lock every door? 00:39:09.029 --> 00:39:10.309 Did I put the alarm on? 00:39:10.469 --> 00:39:11.670 Which neighbors are home? 00:39:11.829 --> 00:39:20.789 Who is like the more time you spend, the more real of a possibility, or or I should say more probable it feels. 00:39:20.949 --> 00:39:25.509 It just feels like more of a threat because you're treating it like one, right? 00:39:26.309 --> 00:39:35.190 So uh, you know, you can think of it as you could even um induce uh a fear that way, like by by treating it. 00:39:35.349 --> 00:39:53.829 If uh somebody was made to um, you know, uh before they back out of a parking space, um, get out of their car, look, you know, um take a mirror and just this ridiculous stuff for five minutes before you back out. 00:39:54.149 --> 00:40:01.429 Backing out of your parking spot is going to feel more dangerous if if you're doing behaviors like that. 00:40:01.909 --> 00:40:06.389 The compulsive reasoning feeds anxiety, it validates the fear. 00:40:06.710 --> 00:40:08.629 That example hits close to home. 00:40:08.789 --> 00:40:11.909 I have a car that beeps when I back up. 00:40:11.989 --> 00:40:15.670 If anybody's within a 50 mile radius, it feels like. 00:40:15.909 --> 00:40:30.389 It's so interesting how the more layers you add on, the more protections, not only the more do you continue to want to add on, um, but also the more anxiety it adds because it's give it sending the message. 00:40:30.710 --> 00:40:34.629 It sends the message that it is a threat, it validates the threat. 00:40:35.190 --> 00:40:40.469 Um, and of you know, uh another another example, this happened with a client of mine. 00:40:40.549 --> 00:40:50.949 She was waiting to hear back from graduate schools, and she was checking her email so many times throughout the day, just so many times. 00:40:51.269 --> 00:40:55.509 And to the point that I mean, she it was all she could think about. 00:40:55.829 --> 00:40:57.190 And it was very difficult. 00:40:57.349 --> 00:41:00.869 We we put a limit, I think we started with three times an hour. 00:41:00.949 --> 00:41:08.469 We started with that, and then work like lower, and her anxiety improved about like, is she gonna get in to this pro? 00:41:08.949 --> 00:41:16.069 But she really had no chance, right, to not feel terribly anxious about it all day with constantly checking it like that. 00:41:16.230 --> 00:41:21.509 And so, you know, that's that's a physical behavior, but same thing with the mental behavior, right? 00:41:21.670 --> 00:41:28.629 Um, you can be you can be mentally checking, am I um I don't know, am I being careful enough? 00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:33.269 Uh, you know, was what I said um appropriate? 00:41:33.670 --> 00:41:43.109 Whatever it is, yeah uh if we if we treat it like a threat, it's going to feel more like a threat. 00:41:43.589 --> 00:41:52.069 Strategic agreement is where you're you're getting in, if you can, some kind of agreement with the threatening thought, right? 00:41:52.230 --> 00:42:00.309 So the threatening thought is um, you know, well, maybe XYZ means this is gonna happen. 00:42:00.469 --> 00:42:01.909 Yeah, yeah, maybe it does. 00:42:02.069 --> 00:42:03.109 Anything's possible. 00:42:03.429 --> 00:42:04.309 Could be. 00:42:04.549 --> 00:42:16.069 Um and I guess I'll just say this last thing, too, with non-engagement, particularly um affirmation of possibility and affirmation of uncertainty, um, which I don't know. 00:42:16.230 --> 00:42:18.710 And it's also um maybe, maybe not. 00:42:18.949 --> 00:42:26.949 It's important to just know that what you're doing there, you're not you're not trying to convince yourself that the bad thing's gonna happen. 00:42:27.109 --> 00:42:33.109 You're just acknowledging the the reality that for the most part, almost anything's possible. 00:42:33.429 --> 00:42:36.629 Your car could be on fire outside your house right now. 00:42:36.789 --> 00:42:38.710 Like it's not impossible. 00:42:38.869 --> 00:42:40.549 Um, you're not worried about it. 00:42:40.710 --> 00:42:46.309 People can acknowledge this uh with whatever it is that they're not worried about, right? 00:42:46.389 --> 00:42:48.149 Uh driving, I mean, that's a good example. 00:42:48.389 --> 00:42:50.469 Probably the most dangerous thing we do. 00:42:50.710 --> 00:42:55.750 Nobody would deny it's possible, you know, something terrible could happen. 00:42:55.989 --> 00:42:57.109 We all know it's possible. 00:42:57.269 --> 00:43:02.949 We don't worry about it for the most part because we, you know, drive safely and do the reasonable things. 00:43:03.269 --> 00:43:07.429 But I don't think, you know, someone would say, no, it's impossible. 00:43:07.589 --> 00:43:10.710 I'm 100% guaranteed safe. 00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:13.190 Um that's just not the case. 00:43:13.349 --> 00:43:19.750 So sure, sure it's possible, but it's kind of more of like, I don't need to go there though, right? 00:43:19.909 --> 00:43:21.190 Like we don't need to. 00:43:21.750 --> 00:43:27.989 So that's what maybe, maybe not is it's instead of pushing back, like, is it gonna happen? 00:43:28.069 --> 00:43:30.149 What if it means it's yeah, maybe it will. 00:43:30.309 --> 00:43:31.190 Like, you never know. 00:43:31.349 --> 00:43:34.069 Sure, it could be anything's possible in this world. 00:43:34.309 --> 00:43:36.549 That's that's kind of how you're using it. 00:43:36.789 --> 00:43:37.429 Yeah. 00:43:39.589 --> 00:43:54.389 I can understand how that stops the hamster wheel because um when you try and say, well, no, that's not gonna happen, your brain can produce another example or at least keeps you in that cycle of thinking. 00:43:54.629 -->

00:44:01.429 But just acknowledging, like, well, sure, of course, anything you can think of basically is possible. 00:44:02.469 --> 00:44:03.109 Right, right. 00:44:03.269 --> 00:44:09.750 It's just it's just affirming the reality that you know we accept all day long without thinking about it. 00:44:09.909 --> 00:44:13.589 You know, it's possible you could get food poisoning the next time you eat at a restaurant. 00:44:13.829 --> 00:44:15.029 I mean, who thinks about that? 00:44:15.269 --> 00:44:23.909 If you're if you are wanting to stay off the hamster wheel, uh, you know, then you use these strategies. 00:44:24.230 --> 00:44:31.670 I should say though, you know, there are for so many people, it's that's not even necessarily about wanting to stay off the hamster wheel. 00:44:31.829 --> 00:44:33.670 Sometimes that is exactly what it is. 00:44:33.829 --> 00:44:37.750 A person feels desperate, especially in OCD, to get off the hamster wheel. 00:44:38.149 --> 00:44:47.429 Just like they do anything to get off the hamster wheel, but can't, as you had mentioned before, there there's ambivalence, you know, I should maybe doing this. 00:44:47.509 --> 00:44:54.869 Like there's not confidence that it's excessive necessarily, right? 00:44:55.269 --> 00:45:10.069 So um, so again, like back to these kind of rules of thumb using urgency, time spent, even things like um, you know, is there even external information? 00:45:10.230 --> 00:45:16.629 Like, is there is there information that you know could come just from your mind, right? 00:45:16.789 --> 00:45:20.710 Like that you could, is that is that even the case, right? 00:45:21.190 --> 00:45:28.149 Um, you know, are you going to have you think, you know, are you are you going to, so am I going to get fired? 00:45:28.230 --> 00:45:33.349 Uh let's say that's a a common worry, or let's say someone has gotten fired from multiple jobs. 00:45:33.589 --> 00:45:39.349 So so I I have a I have a client who had a kind of bad history with that and would always worry about that. 00:45:39.509 --> 00:45:49.109 Um but that's a you know, it's a it's understandable, um, but um but frequent that that's not serving the person. 00:45:49.829 --> 00:45:59.589 And um, you know, aside from, you know, of course, like doing, you know, your job and doing just am I could what about the look on her face? 00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:06.069 Did this mean she didn't like like that's not gonna, that's not gonna tell you if you're gonna get fired or not. 00:46:06.149 --> 00:46:08.230 You're not gonna be able to figure that out. 00:46:08.549 --> 00:46:13.750 Um so uh so it's really just kind of really keeping it basic. 00:46:13.909 --> 00:46:15.989 Am I gonna, am I gonna know for sure? 00:46:16.069 --> 00:46:17.589 Am I gonna know for 100%? 00:46:18.230 --> 00:46:27.670 And if it's oftentimes if it's anything less than 100% or almost in in an OCD's case and significant anxieties, it has to be 110%. 00:46:28.710 --> 00:46:31.269 Um it's it's just impossible. 00:46:31.429 --> 00:46:41.190 Um, and so you are not going to engage, you're not gonna play this game that you know you cannot possibly win. 00:46:41.349 --> 00:46:42.389 You're not gonna do it. 00:46:42.549 --> 00:46:44.149 It doesn't make sense. 00:46:44.869 --> 00:46:51.989 Yeah, I think that's a great way to think about it, even when we're guiding our clients. 00:46:52.469 --> 00:46:55.989 Is any of this making it more possible to know? 00:46:56.469 --> 00:47:02.469 And oftentimes it is the opposite of the you know, thinking making it more clear. 00:47:02.789 --> 00:47:05.670 So much of the time it makes it less clear, right? 00:47:05.909 --> 00:47:25.269 You know, the so the more you are thinking about it, the less clear it becomes, the more confused you're, you know, sometimes I'll say, you know, it's kind of like like if you're looking at a pen, you know, if you're looking at it like this closely, you can't even see it, right? 00:47:25.589 --> 00:47:29.989 Um so it's the only thing you can see, yet you can't really see it. 00:47:30.549 --> 00:47:32.389 It's it's ineffective, right? 00:47:32.629 --> 00:47:41.349 It's not it, but not only is it ineffective, it I mean it makes it it makes it more um uh unknowable or more confused. 00:47:41.589 --> 00:47:50.549 I think what just um maybe one thing to mention about uh coping responses or supportive uh statements as opposed to non-engagement responses. 00:47:51.109 --> 00:48:07.190 Um so a lot of um a lot of kind of what's out there on social media and um you know, just in hearing about uh people are calling certain things non-engagement responses, like um uh you know, I don't need to think about that right now. 00:48:07.349 --> 00:48:09.269 I'll be able to handle that if that happens. 00:48:09.509 --> 00:48:12.549 Now, not that those are bad things at all to say. 00:48:12.710 --> 00:48:14.789 Um those can be very good things to say. 00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:23.509 And if the person is able to say to themselves something like, you know, I'll handle it if it happens, and then they can move on, excellent. 00:48:23.750 --> 00:48:30.309 So good, but if you know, something like I'll handle it if it happens, then you get caught. 00:48:30.469 --> 00:48:31.349 But how do I know I'll handle it? 00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:33.029 How will I know it'll happen? 00:48:33.190 --> 00:48:35.029 What are the signs it's happening? 00:48:35.269 --> 00:48:38.069 How will I react when it does happen? 00:48:38.949 --> 00:48:39.109 Right. 00:48:39.190 --> 00:48:40.710 And what if I don't handle it? 00:48:40.949 --> 00:48:48.789 Yeah, or another one is you know, um, this a lot of people are calling a non-engagement response is I don't need to figure this out right now. 00:48:48.949 --> 00:48:52.789 And again, that's not a bad thing to say to yourself. 00:48:53.029 --> 00:48:58.549 Um, if reminding yourself of that allows you to move on, then awesome, use it. 00:48:58.629 --> 00:49:00.469 You know, use what works

for you. 00:49:00.789 --> 00:49:15.029 But if what ends up happening is, you know, to I don't need to figure this out right now, but maybe I do, you know, maybe I do need to maybe it's irresponsible not to, then it's just keeping you on the wheel. 00:49:15.190 --> 00:49:30.389 So these coping responses, like like really any coping strategy, uh, I think, you know, can be very helpful as long as um, you know, well, at least with OCD, the really the measure is can you are you moving on? 00:49:30.469 --> 00:49:46.389 Or is it is it just keeping you in the butt with anything, um, yeah, if telling yourself and it's gentler in a lot of ways, I'll handle it, or um, you know, anything if that helps you move on, fantastic. 00:49:46.629 --> 00:50:00.949 Um, but I do differentiate uh with something like that and a non-engagement response in that the non-engagement response, it really has to involve um some element of strategic agreement, right? 00:50:01.190 --> 00:50:06.069 So even though you can be strategically agreeing, yeah, like who knows, anything's possible. 00:50:06.309 --> 00:50:22.069 Of course, the anxiety can still say something back, you're not giving it more, you're not defending, you're not justifying, um, you're not uh um reassuring, like you're not giving it anything to use. 00:50:22.629 --> 00:50:27.429 Um in a lot of ways, it's it's kind of like um dealing with a narcissist, right? 00:50:27.829 --> 00:50:33.509 Where um it's best not to defend yourself, it's not it's best not to justify your behavior, right? 00:50:33.589 --> 00:50:36.389 Uh agree to disagree, noted, right? 00:50:36.629 --> 00:50:38.149 You don't want to engage. 00:50:38.469 --> 00:50:39.670 Same type of thing. 00:50:40.069 --> 00:50:56.230 I think those are such good reminders that sort of um transfer across different areas our clients are dealing with that can be helpful not to jump in and really engage. 00:50:56.389 --> 00:50:58.149 There are real opportunities. 00:50:58.309 --> 00:51:13.670 You know, DBT has opposite action where our instinct is to get in and really sort through it, and that might be helpful in some areas and to be able to just notice sometimes, like, wow, I'm doing this response that I've been conditioned to do. 00:51:13.909 --> 00:51:17.989 And instead, I just want to acknowledge like, yeah, it could happen. 00:51:18.149 --> 00:51:18.549 Uh-huh. 00:51:18.789 --> 00:51:20.469 I could have this experience. 00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:26.389 Yeah, but if these thoughts, no wonder I'm feeling anxious because they're anxiety-provoking. 00:51:26.710 --> 00:51:28.149 Exactly, exactly. 00:51:28.309 --> 00:51:34.549 And you have to remember with non-engagement responses, you know, why you are strategically agreeing, right? 00:51:34.789 --> 00:51:35.829 That's very important. 00:51:36.069 --> 00:51:45.429 So, you know, if you're saying, yeah, well, anything's possible, it could happen, you know, you throw you're you're agreeing that it's possible uh strategically, right? 00:51:45.589 --> 00:51:52.789 You're agreeing because you're not going to fight to prove something that can't be proven, right? 00:51:52.949 --> 00:51:56.469 And keep yourself it's anything is possible. 00:51:56.629 --> 00:52:14.309 So you have to remember kind of um what position you're you're in, what position you're trying to stay in, and why, yeah, why you are using this strategy in order for it to be used to empower you rather than for it to feel depressing, right? 00:52:14.549 --> 00:52:17.269 Or or like you're uh resigned. 00:52:19.429 --> 00:52:29.429 I I love that as just sort of a closing note that knowing what you're using, you know, do I have a response that I use that's effective? 00:52:29.589 --> 00:52:29.829 Great. 00:52:29.989 --> 00:52:31.750 Is it a non-engagement response? 00:52:31.909 --> 00:52:46.549 Not necessarily, you know, so that you know when the when the time comes up what it what those exactly look like and why a coping response that has been effective isn't effective in this other scenario, because it really isn't. 00:52:46.629 --> 00:52:49.670 You are engaging, it is an engagement response in some ways. 00:52:49.989 --> 00:52:54.549 And if almost like by definition, there is that element of a of agreement. 00:52:54.710 --> 00:53:04.230 Um, and that is how you are strategically not engaging, kind of like you're you're not engaging by strategically agreeing in some form. 00:53:05.509 --> 00:53:17.909 I like to ask everyone this as we close down with your clients or with you specifically, is there anything that you integrate or recommend for self-care or burnout prevention? 00:53:18.869 --> 00:53:27.029 Uh so I'm very frequently stressing giving yourself credit for doing these very hard things. 00:53:27.429 --> 00:53:36.789 Um, you know, with with OCD and anxiety treatment, exposure and response prevention is um is very effective, but it's a it's hard. 00:53:37.109 --> 00:53:39.429 Um it requires a lot of bravery. 00:53:39.589 --> 00:53:49.190 And uh, you know, even you know, outside of that, you know, telling yourself, um, yeah, well, anything's like that's hard. 00:53:49.429 --> 00:53:50.069 It is hard. 00:53:50.230 --> 00:53:51.989 It takes bravery, it takes courage. 00:53:52.309 --> 00:53:59.750 So I think um giving yourself the credit that you deserve, uh, like that that was not easy. 00:53:59.909 --> 00:54:04.789 And and also recognizing sometimes people say, well, why should I give myself credit? 00:54:04.949 --> 00:54:13.989 Like, you know, anyone can easily uh, you know, just not engage with a scary thought for, you know, why do I deserve credit for that? 00:54:14.309 --> 00:54:16.869 It's because uh how hard it is, right? 00:54:16.949 --> 00:54:20.389 Like courage is is different from fearlessness. 00:54:20.710 --> 00:54:24.949 You have to be scared in order to have courage, right? 00:54:25.269 --> 00:54:30.149 Um it means that you're you're scared, but you're you're doing it anyway, right? 00:54:30.629 --> 00:54:35.909 Um, so it doesn't matter what it what what you're scared about, right? 00:54:36.069 --> 00:54:38.869 It doesn't matter if it's something that everyone can relate to. 00:54:39.029 --> 00:54:50.549 Like it's scary to run into a burning building to save someone, you you know, deserve a lot of credit, or it's scary um acknowledging that you're not gonna know and like keeping that up. 00:54:50.710 --> 00:55:00.149 So they're both scary, and and the more scary something is, you know, uh the more credit you deserve, right? 00:55:00.309 --> 00:55:14.149 So and with some for someone uh with OCD or or or even without, you know, if it's some a really big worry, like not going there can be legitimately extremely scary. 00:55:14.710 --> 00:55:26.389 Um so though giving yourself credit, I think, is is so important because it's deserved and also because it will help you next time um do it again. 00:55:26.469 --> 00:55:33.109 It's a bit you're associating, you know, um something good uh associated with it as well. 00:55:33.909 --> 00:55:35.190 Such a great point. 00:55:35.349 --> 00:55:40.869 Uh well, Lisa, thank you so much for uh being here today and talking through this. 00:55:40.949 --> 00:55:44.389 I think this is gonna be so helpful for folks to know more about. 00:55:45.909 --> 00:55:49.029 Thank you for listening to the Self-Cherapist Therapist. 00:55:49.190 --> 00:55:55.429 I hope today's conversation gave you insight, clarity, or a tool you can take straight into your clinical work. 00:55:55.670 --> 00:56:03.190 If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 00:56:03.349 --> 00:56:07.670 It helps other therapists find the show and keeps these conversations going. 00:56:07.909 --> 00:56:12.789 Until next time, keep learning, stay curious, and take care of yourself too.