สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
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Hi, I'm Meryl Horne filling in for Wendy Zuckerman, and
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you're listening to Science Versus. This is the show that
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pits facts against fructose. Today, we're looking at sugar. Is
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it really that bad? Sugar has always been the villain
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in our diets, that thing calling out to us that
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we know we should resist. And recently, it feels like
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everyone's piling on to tell us, don't do it.
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Sugar is one of the deadliest things you can eat.
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Our bodies are not able to adapt to the amount
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of sugar that we're consuming, and it's making us so sick.
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Every time you eat sugar, every time, it does permanent
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damage to your body.
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Sugar is poison, and Americans need to know that. It
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is poisoning us.
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That last voice you heard was RFK Jr., the Health
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and Human Services Secretary in the U.S., and he's recommended
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that Americans have zero added sugar in their food. Zero!
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And things get even more heated when the topic of
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high fructose corn syrup comes up. We hear that this
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one is way worse for us than other types of sugar.
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High fructose corn syrup. Where do I f * *
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* ing start?
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Literally cheap garbage with zero nutritional value.
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High fructose corn syrup actually has a similar effect to
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obesity as.
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Fuel to a fire. But then at the same time,
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influencers are telling us that there's a loophole here. Just
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eat natural sugars. Those are way healthier.
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So the best alternative is agave. I love good honey.
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I love maple syrup.
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The thicker, the darker color, the better. Raw honey has
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been shown to have a ton of health benefits in
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many studies.
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Real maple syrup and why you should be chugging it.
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We're going to be chugging the research on all of this.
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We'll find out whether sugar really does such terrible things
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to our bodies, and if we really can go to
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town on stuff like honey and maple syrup.
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Because when it comes to sugar.
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Where do I f * * * ing start?
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Duh, with the science.
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Science vs. Sugar is coming up after the break.
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Welcome back. Today on the show, we're looking at sugar.
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How bad is it really? This is Meryl Horne, and
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with me is senior producer Rose Rimler.
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Hi, Meryl.
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Hey, Rose.
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So... You're often the one that covers nutrition topics on
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our show. Are you like a little mad at me
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for getting in your lane?
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No, I don't want to do this.
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No? Why don't you want to find out about the
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science of sugar? Do you have a sweet tooth?
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I do.
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Let's see. Every morning, pretty much, most mornings, I put
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honey on my yogurt. That's what I have for breakfast.
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And also throughout the day, I eat a lot of fruit.
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Like I eat fruit at breakfast. I usually have some
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fruit after lunch.
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Well, I have some good news for you right off
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the bat.
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Can I keep my fruit?
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Yes, fruit is totally okay. That's one thing that some
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of the sugar haters get wrong is that sugar overall
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is not poison because we know fruit does have a
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lot of sugar in it. But it's also one of
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the healthiest foods you can eat.
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Is that because of like the fiber and the nutrients?
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Yeah, the fiber especially.
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Load full transcript
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There's a lot of like good stuff in fruit, which
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makes it healthy to eat overall. So one huge review
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found that eating more fruit is linked to a lower
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risk of getting heart disease, some types of cancer, type
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2 diabetes. So that's one reason why sugar is not
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just terrible for us overall. And another one is that
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we know that whenever we eat stuff with sugar in it,
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our bodies do use some of that for energy, right?
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It's this like quick source of energy. And that's why
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like you see marathon runners having that.
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Like sugar goo stuff.
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It can be converted really quickly into energy unlike other
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things like fat.
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Yeah, like if I was cycling the Tour de France,
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I would be like, they could have all the syrup
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I wanted, I assume. Yeah. Yeah.
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So yeah, there is some good here.
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But for the sugar haters, they're not really coming for
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your fruit. They're more worried about the sugar that gets
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added to stuff like soda, cakes, your ice cream.
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Meryl, I think you're underestimating the kookiness of people on
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the internet.
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They come for the fruit too.
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Yeah. Well, they're wrong. Don't let them do that.
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But this concept of like added sugars being the thing
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you have to worry about, that's familiar to me. And
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I think I've seen that for sure online. The whole
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like no added sugars. Yeah, that's definitely like a thing
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that's out there.
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That's the big concern, right? So that's what we're really
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going to dive into. Let's look at whether it does
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make us gain weight first, since there's this idea that
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when we eat sugar, it really like packs on the
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pounds compared to eating other stuff.
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Oh, like sugar is like Gram for gram, like more
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fattening than other nutrients.
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And so one of the first studies that shed light
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on this was done by Professor Jim Mann at the
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University of Otago in New Zealand. He did it like
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50 years ago, actually, back in the 70s.
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But funnily enough, I can remember that study very clearly.
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Oh, really?
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Because of the way it turned out.
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And so, yeah, it really stuck with him.
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Like a Tootsie Roll that you left in your pocket
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too long because something totally unexpected ended up happening.
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So here's how it went down.
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Okay.
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The goal of the study was to see what happens
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when people replace sugar for other types of calories, like starch,
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the stuff that's in bread. So they could see like,
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is sugar particularly unhealthy for us?
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So here's what they told the volunteers.
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We said, look, we.
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Want you to replace, give up X amount of sugar
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and replace that with starch to see the effect.
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So ditch the dessert and have some pasta instead?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So we had a dietician, excellent dietician, who worked with
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these people on a regular basis.
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And highly motivated people. And they said, yeah, we'll do
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everything you say.
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So my dream of having extra mashed potatoes at the
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end of the meal.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It doesn't sound that bad actually, right?
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Like instead of having sugar, you're supposed to basically have
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everything else.
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You can have starch, you can have protein.
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And they wanted them to do it pretty precisely, like
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substitute out one for one. Like the calories that you're
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going to have for sugar have the pasta instead. But
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what ended up happening is that instead of doing that
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one-for-one replacement, they ended up eating less overall. So like,
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so yeah, instead of having like the exact amount of
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calories that they're going to have in sugar, in pasta,
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they ended up having less
pasta.
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They just couldn't get that much starch down their gullets.
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Yeah, yeah. And so they ended up losing weight. And
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so Jim couldn't do the thing he was trying to do,
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which was see, like, which is worse, calorie for calorie.
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Here's what they'd need to do instead.
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You've actually got to do it in a controlled environment
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where you actually give people all their meals and you
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virtually lock them up to make sure that they are
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actually not going to change their calorie intake.
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Right.
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One of these studies, nutrition studies, where you get people
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to live in the lab and you give them all
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their meals.
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Yeah, basically. My favorite. So yeah, he had to wait
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for these more careful studies to come along.
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And they have.
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Wait, so other researchers have done that since Jim?
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Yes, yes.
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Okay.
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Other researchers will do what he was trying to do
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kind of properly. So like make sure people aren't actually
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changing the total amount of calories that they're eating to
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find out if sugar itself causes more weight gain than
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other stuff.
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Okay.
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So several years ago, Jim and his team collected a
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bunch of these studies for a meta-analysis. They ended up
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looking at 12 of them. So now we can answer
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the question, right?
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So are you ready?
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Yeah.
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So what they found is that sugar does not have
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some sort of magical power to make you gain weight.
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So if you have like people eat the same amount
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of calories, some of them are getting sugar, some of
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them are getting other stuff, they generally do not gain
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more weight with the sugar. I mean, to me, I
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was kind of surprised because it does feel like sugar
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is bad for our weight and it It is true
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that people who have more sugar generally will gain more weight.
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And that's because in the real world, when people have
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a lot of sugar, they aren't like compensating by eating
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less of other stuff.
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Maybe because sugar doesn't make.
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Us feel as full as other foods do. I mean,
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you could see this in Jim's study and... It just
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makes intuitive sense. Like, if you imagine having a bottle
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of Coke with your lunch, you're not going to be like, oh, like,
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I guess I won't be that hungry for a big
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lunch anymore because I'm having all this soda. Like, no,
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you're going to have just as big of a lunch
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as you would have otherwise if you're having water with
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your lunch. And so, like, even though it doesn't seem
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like sugar is magically good at making us gain weight,
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people do tend to just eat more overall when they
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have a lot of sugar in their diet.
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It's magically good at being delicious and making you want
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to eat more.
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And more of it. Yeah, that too. And so we
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end up gaining weight and that could increase your risk
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for some types of cancer, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.
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And there's another thing that sugar can do that's not
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so good for us. It's bad for our cardiovascular system.
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And that actually is true even if you're not eating
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more calories overall. Sugar seems to be bad for our blood, basically.
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It's not a huge effect, but it's still like a
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tick against sugar. And why is it bad for our
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cardiovascular system? It's because of the way that sugar can
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get converted into fat.
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That ends up being bad for us.
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We'll actually come back to that a little later. But first,
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to complete our roundup of why sugar is bad. So
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number one, if we eat more sugar, we tend to
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gain weight. Number two, it's bad for our cardiovascular system.
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And number three, can you guess, Rose, the other main
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reason why sugar is bad for us?
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It's bad for your teeth.
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Yes.
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Sugar gives us cavities.
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We've known this since the 1950s when there was a
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really terrible experiment Jim told me about.
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It was done in Sweden.
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Most unethical by modern standards, where they gave people who
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lived in mental institutions, they gave them, I think, those
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sort of toffee kind of things to chew and other
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sweet things, showed that those people in the mental institution
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who were given these disgusting sugary sweet things were They
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got terrible dental caddies.
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Yes, you can't just give people diseases. But yes, okay,
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so sugar really does lead to cavities. It's not an
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old myth.
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No, yeah.
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Now we know it's because sugar feeds bacteria that are
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in our mouths and that creates cavities or at least
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little holes in our teeth. Okay, so here's where we are.
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Sugar is not looking great. You know, so far, lots
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of the studies we've been talking about are just using
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basic table sugar. But there are these claims that some
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00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:07.730
sugars are better for you than that or worse for
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you than that. And so this opens up a whole
256
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can of gummy worms.
257
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That's what we'll look into next.
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Oh, did you bring gummy worms to this discussion?
259
00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:19.769
Check your mail.
260
00:12:22.269 --> 00:12:26.429
Look under your seat. So next up, we're going to
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00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:28.909
tell you whether high fructose corn syrup really is the
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00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:32.049
big bad wolf, whether honey or maple syrup is the
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00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:32.700
way to go.
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And the answers might surprise you.
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That's after the break.
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It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time
267
00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:55.129
for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy
268
00:12:55.190 --> 00:12:59.389
wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co,
269
00:12:59.889 --> 00:13:03.929
or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver
270
00:13:04.029 --> 00:13:05.789
in as little as 25 minutes.
271
00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:08.009
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00:13:08.490 --> 00:13:12.669
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273
00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:16.049
Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary.
274
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See app or web for info.
275
00:13:17.899 --> 00:13:20.419
Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to
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00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:23.779
tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday.
277
00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:26.509
They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
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00:13:26.549 --> 00:13:30.590
and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
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00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:33.690
brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a
280
00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:35.220
spider on its tail. tail.
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00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:36.659
It's a lot of news that you.
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00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:38.940
Can use and some that you can't, but you're going
283
00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:43.100
to love anyway. It's hosted by Ira Flato and Flora Lichtman,
284
00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:45.960
who is an old friend of the show and loves
285
00:13:46.059 --> 00:13:48.659
a pun as much as we do. Science Friday is
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00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:51.279
on every day, wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:58.450
Welcome back. Today is Sugar Day at Science Versus. With
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00:13:58.490 --> 00:13:59.690
me is Rose Rimler.
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Hi, Meryl.
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Next up, we're going to talk about the favorite punching
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00:14:03.830 --> 00:14:07.399
bag in the sugar world, high fructose corn syrup, and
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the idea that it is way worse for us than
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other sugar. So this was in the news recently when
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President Trump praised Coca-Cola for using cane sugar in some
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of their sodas in the U.S. And the company confirmed
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that they're going to do that soon. So, of course,
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all the talking heads weighed in on high fructose corn syrup.
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A lot of folks, I personally agree with this, find
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high fructose corn syrup kind of creepy.
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I like cane sugar better because it's more natural. High
301
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fructose corn syrup, it comes from corn, but I don't
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00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:39.129
think it remembers what a corn looks like.
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00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:41.820
This is kind of an old one, too, right? I mean,
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this was big in the 90s. I remember this being
305
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an issue when I was a little kid.
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00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.820
Yeah. That high fructose corn syrup is like particularly bad
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00:14:51.220
for us.
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00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:51.679
Yeah.
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00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:53.039
Maybe it's a California thing.
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I don't know.
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Did it just reach the East Coast? Because in California,
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we've been talking about this since like 1975.
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So do you get bad vibes from high fructose corn syrup?
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Everybody in California knows that the vibes are really bad.
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Of high fructose corn syrup.
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00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:10.730
But to find out if it's more than just bad vibes,
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I called up Dr. Kimber Stanhope. She's a research nutritional
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00:15:14.389 --> 00:15:18.889
biologist at the University of California, Davis, and her specialty
319
00:15:19.110 --> 00:15:22.379
is sugar. So she's been very popular this past news cycle.
320
00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:26.740
Have you been getting flooded by requests from reporters to
321
00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:27.960
talk about this right now?
322
00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:29.100
Definitely a lot.
323
00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:29.850
You're late.
324
00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:36.309
So there actually is a legit reason why high fructose
325
00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:38.309
corn syrup might be bad for us.
326
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.159
It's because of the fructose.
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That's one of the basic sugar building blocks along with glucose.
328
00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:48.330
And at one point, like in the 80s, scientists were
329
00:15:48.350 --> 00:15:51.509
thinking that fructose might actually be better for us than
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other stuff like glucose.
331
00:15:53.289 --> 00:15:53.409
Oh.
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00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:56.669
Because fructose doesn't raise our blood sugar like glucose does.
333
00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:57.710
Oh, okay.
334
00:15:57.750 --> 00:16:00.779
So maybe good, especially if you have diabetes.
335
00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:01.279
Mm-hmm.
336
00:16:01.850 --> 00:16:05.370
But those glory days of fructose didn't last long because
337
00:16:05.509 --> 00:16:09.860
pretty quickly, studies started coming out finding that fructose has
338
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.320
its own set of problems. So one big one is
339
00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:18.120
that it often gets turned into something called triglycerides. and
340
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.230
triglycerides are what fat is made of. So Kimber told me,
341
00:16:22.429 --> 00:16:25.909
imagine you got someone who was willing to donate some
342
00:16:25.929 --> 00:16:28.029
of their body to science, and then.
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00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.690
You took a big chunk of their fat, most of
344
00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:33.279
that fat is triglyceride.
345
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.360
Oh, so it's like the currency of fat in the body.
346
00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:37.840
Right, exactly.
347
00:16:38.200 -->
00:16:40.519
Does it look like anything, like under a microscope?
348
00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:41.750
Pure oil.
349
00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:42.259
So most of.
350
00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:52.389
Okay, your oils at home that you cook with, that
351
00:16:52.590 --> 00:16:55.409
is nearly pure triglyceride.
352
00:16:56.070 --> 00:16:56.210
Oh.
353
00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:00.649
So like in the blood, it forms these droplets.
354
00:17:01.289 --> 00:17:05.640
And over time, though, these droplets can start like stacking
355
00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:07.140
up in our blood vessels.
356
00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:10.839
They almost sort of round out the edges and look
357
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:12.339
like a layer, you know, bricks.
358
00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:14.630
But free-form bricks.
359
00:17:15.049 --> 00:17:15.849
Like squishy bricks?
360
00:17:16.250 --> 00:17:16.950
Yeah, yeah.
361
00:17:17.609 --> 00:17:21.420
And that layer of squishy bricks narrows the blood vessels,
362
00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:23.180
and that can raise your blood pressure and up the
363
00:17:23.220 --> 00:17:27.240
chance of you getting a stroke. Okay, so the reason
364
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.599
fructose is a bad guy is that it gets turned
365
00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:35.910
into triglycerides. Triglycerides cause these fat bricks that can cause
366
00:17:35.930 --> 00:17:37.049
all these heart disease issues.
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00:17:37.529 --> 00:17:40.730
That makes sense, but... But wouldn't that happen with any
368
00:17:40.849 --> 00:17:42.549
type of sugar that you eat? Like, why are we
369
00:17:42.569 --> 00:17:45.119
blaming fructose here? Like, would that also happen with glucose
370
00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:45.779
or something like that?
371
00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:48.799
It can. So it can happen with glucose under, like,
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00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:55.220
certain conditions. But fructose basically gets converted into triglycerides more easily.
373
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.490
It's sort of fructose's evil superpower. And so now some
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00:17:59.509 --> 00:18:02.730
scientists think that fructose is worse for us than glucose.
375
00:18:02.990 --> 00:18:06.269
But earlier you said that fruit is okay and... Like,
376
00:18:06.670 --> 00:18:08.660
doesn't fruit have a lot of fructose in it?
377
00:18:08.849 --> 00:18:12.799
It does, but the fructose in fruit is okay because
378
00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:16.220
it's bound up inside the fruit. It's like alongside all
379
00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:20.359
that fiber we talked about. But with something like high
380
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.940
fructose corn syrup, the fructose there is just kind of
381
00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:28.559
free floating. And so there's this concern that that's particularly
382
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:29.660
bad for our bodies.
383
00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:31.480
But is it?
384
00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:32.180
So.
385
00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:35.289
Kimber wanted to know, like, what actually happens when you
386
00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:38.589
give people this stuff and just compare it to table sugar?
387
00:18:39.029 --> 00:18:40.950
So let me tell you about one of the clinical
388
00:18:40.970 --> 00:18:45.430
trials she's done. She got 52 adults, and they actually
389
00:18:45.470 --> 00:18:47.529
had them move into the wing of a hospital for
390
00:18:47.609 --> 00:18:50.390
three days in the beginning of the experiment, where they
391
00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:52.150
could run a battery of tests on them.
392
00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:54.849
We collect blood all day long.
393
00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:57.289
We start at 8 o'clock in the morning, and we
394
00:18:57.329 --> 00:18:59.990
go all the way to 8 o'clock the next day,
395
00:19:00.230 --> 00:19:01.410
at least every hour.
396
00:19:01.430 --> 00:19:01.730
Wow.
397
00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:05.930
And this was to check for stuff like triglycerides and cholesterol.
398
00:19:05.970 --> 00:19:08.970
They also got liver MRIs done since some of those
399
00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:12.279
triglycerides can build up in the liver too, which is
400
00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:16.339
not good. And they basically wanted to get a really
401
00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:20.039
good baseline of where people are at before they started
402
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.759
giving them any sugar. Like everyone had to eat the
403
00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:26.460
same food while they were there, like salad.
404
00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:33.789
The complaints I got About that salad went on and on.
405
00:19:33.930 --> 00:19:38.539
I got so tired of people saying, oh, I can't
406
00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:39.940
eat all this salad.
407
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.880
Like this much.
408
00:19:42.980 --> 00:19:46.769
I mean, it was not an enormous salad.
409
00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:49.970
Was it like iceberg lettuce and really bad bland tomatoes?
410
00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:52.910
Though? She defended it. She was like, no, this was
411
00:19:52.950 --> 00:19:54.500
like a tossed salad.
412
00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:57.240
So it had tomatoes, cucumbers. Oh.
413
00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.279
But people did seem to like the next part of
414
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.380
the experiment more. They get to go home now and
415
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.819
they get to drink lots and lots of Kool-Aid. What
416
00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.579
was the Kool-Aid flavor? Was it the fruit punch one?
417
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.700
They got to choose.
418
00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:18.539
I actually many times stunned the cashiers coming through with
419
00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:21.619
easily a thousand packets of Kool-Aid.
420
00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:22.299
Oh my gosh.
421
00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.079
Oh my gosh, you really like.
422
00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:26.339
Kool-Aid, don't you?
423
00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:30.680
But I usually waited for it to be on sale, but.
424
00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:35.289
And the Kool-Aid they got was sweetened with either table
425
00:20:35.349 --> 00:20:37.049
sugar or
high fructose corn syrup.
426
00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:39.880
So that was the big difference between the two groups
427
00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.599
once they went home, was they either drank a lot
428
00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:47.079
of table sugar, sugary Kool-Aid or high fructose corn syrup Kool-Aid.
429
00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:48.359
Yes, exactly.
430
00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:51.539
Okay. Yeah, they had to have it three times a day,
431
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:53.599
and they didn't know which one they were getting. Okay.
432
00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:57.019
So now after 12 days of that, they go back
433
00:20:57.059 --> 00:20:59.630
to the hospital again so they can redo all those tests.
434
00:21:00.250 --> 00:21:02.690
And now we can finally see how bad the high
435
00:21:02.730 --> 00:21:06.630
fructose corn syrup is. So I asked Kimber, was high
436
00:21:06.670 --> 00:21:11.160
fructose corn syrup any worse for people than normal table sugar? No. No.
437
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.940
There was never a difference, a significant difference between the two.
438
00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:16.759
Whoa.
439
00:21:17.589 --> 00:21:19.930
So what would they have seen if there was a difference?
440
00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:22.569
So they're looking for at the triglycerides and like fat
441
00:21:22.609 --> 00:21:25.369
in the liver. And, you know, you'd expect that if
442
00:21:25.410 --> 00:21:28.450
high fructose corn syrup was worse, you would see more triglycerides,
443
00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:32.000
more liver fat in that group. But instead, you know,
444
00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.480
they saw a rise in both groups, but there wasn't
445
00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:36.059
a difference between the two.
446
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:39.160
So, yeah, I asked if Kimber was surprised.
447
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.750
No, I wasn't surprised at all. The results were actually
448
00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:48.890
pretty much exactly what I would have expected.
449
00:21:49.259 --> 00:21:52.619
She didn't drink the Kool-Aid about high fructose corn syrup? No.
450
00:21:54.500 --> 00:21:54.819
Are you?
451
00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:55.779
I'm surprised.
452
00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.420
I don't know. I guess, I mean, I guess I'm,
453
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:00.009
I mean, I am and I'm not like, I know
454
00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:01.849
that so much of what we are told about nutrition
455
00:22:01.910 --> 00:22:05.809
is BS. So like, I'm not surprised this thing is BS,
456
00:22:05.950 --> 00:22:09.450
but I am like, I do have this in, like
457
00:22:09.470 --> 00:22:12.859
this internal feeling that like, high fructose corn syrup has
458
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.890
got to be pretty bad, right? And that's interesting that
459
00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:19.289
at least on these measures, it was the same as
460
00:22:19.390 --> 00:22:20.430
just plain old sugar.
461
00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:24.650
Yeah, yeah. I was surprised too. I mean, but the reason,
462
00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:28.559
once
you find out like what high fructose corn syrup is,
463
00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:31.849
it makes a lot of sense. So I've been kind
464
00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:36.529
of holding back on you for dramatic effects. But basically,
465
00:22:37.029 --> 00:22:40.910
high fructose corn syrup does not actually have that much
466
00:22:40.950 --> 00:22:43.309
more fructose in it than normal table sugar.
467
00:22:43.789 --> 00:22:44.170
Really?
468
00:22:44.190 --> 00:22:46.009
Yeah, despite the name.
469
00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:47.349
It's just the name.
470
00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:47.710
Yeah.
471
00:22:47.750 --> 00:22:51.269
So basically, both are made out of two things, fructose
472
00:22:51.349 --> 00:22:57.220
and glucose. High fructose corn syrup is often 55% fructose.
473
00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:59.880
Do you want to guess how much fructose is in
474
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.380
table sugar?
475
00:23:00.970 --> 00:23:04.210
Well, you told me it's not that much of a difference.
476
00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:04.509
So 50%?
477
00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:04.869
Yep.
478
00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:05.970
Okay.
479
00:23:06.509 --> 00:23:07.670
It's half and half.
480
00:23:08.529 --> 00:23:08.710
Okay.
481
00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:10.269
So yeah, they're pretty much on par.
482
00:23:10.369 --> 00:23:12.710
So it's slightly high fructose corn syrup.
483
00:23:13.049 --> 00:23:13.569
Yeah.
484
00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:16.170
In this case, it was slightly higher.
485
00:23:16.670 --> 00:23:19.430
And so that's why Kimber also wasn't surprised.
486
00:23:19.529 --> 00:23:23.029
That difference is not enough to show up at least
487
00:23:23.109 --> 00:23:24.349
in a two-week study.
488
00:23:24.410 --> 00:23:27.890
So it's actually, it's not like it doesn't deserve its stigma,
489
00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:28.839
high fructose corn syrup.
490
00:23:28.900 --> 00:23:29.180
No.
491
00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:31.799
Hmm. And others today have backed this up.
492
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:32.920
It's funny.
493
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.900
You'd think that if this is the case, the people
494
00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:39.019
behind high fructose corn syrup would have rebranded ages ago.
495
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:39.119
Yeah.
496
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.200
Because if they could just be.
497
00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:44.640
Like, if we just call it something else, then they
498
00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:47.240
wouldn't have had this whole mess, maybe.
499
00:23:47.349 --> 00:23:48.700
They actually tried to, yeah.
500
00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:50.970
There was like a campaign where they tried to change
501
00:23:51.029 --> 00:23:54.509
it to just corn sugar. But the problem is when
502
00:23:54.529 --> 00:23:57.700
they first invented it, You know, they called it high
503
00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:01.700
fructose corn syrup because the thing that came around first
504
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.089
was just corn syrup. And that didn't have any fructose
505
00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.869
in it at all. So that was low fructose. That
506
00:24:07.890 --> 00:24:12.349
was basically no fructose. And then they started adding fructose
507
00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:15.970
to it to make it sweeter. And that's why they
508
00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:18.109
called it high fructose corn syrup. It's higher than nothing.
509
00:24:18.589 --> 00:24:21.369
So it's sort of a misnomer. And sometimes it actually
510
00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:25.410
has less fructose in it than table sugar. But I bet, yeah,
511
00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:28.819
I think they're probably regretting their decision pretty strongly now
512
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.839
to call it that because now it's kind of stuck.
513
00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:37.279
So maybe this is ignorant, but table sugar, that's from... Beets?
514
00:24:37.779 --> 00:24:38.960
Cane? Sugar cane?
515
00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:39.960
Both.
516
00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:43.119
Yeah. Those are the two main sources are either beets
517
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:45.940
or sugar cane. And that in both cases, it's half
518
00:24:45.980 --> 00:24:51.220
and half. So 50% fructose, 50% glucose, which by the way,
519
00:24:51.309 --> 00:24:53.950
means that there's like no real reason to think that
520
00:24:54.069 --> 00:24:57.109
cane sugar is like especially healthy for us when it's
521
00:24:57.329 --> 00:24:59.769
basically the same thing as high fructose corn syrup when
522
00:24:59.789 --> 00:25:02.880
you look at what makes it up. But so does
523
00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:06.549
this change your mind after all your, you know, brainwashing
524
00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:09.710
growing up in California about how terrible high fructose corn
525
00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:11.410
syrup was? Are you going to go put some of
526
00:25:11.450 --> 00:25:15.950
that now on your yogurt?
527
00:25:16.190 --> 00:25:18.930
You know, it's very hard to undo brainwashing, but I
528
00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:22.549
do genuinely. Now my question is like, maybe high fructose
529
00:25:22.569 --> 00:25:26.779
corn syrup isn't worse than other types of sources of sugar, but.
530
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:30.539
Does that mean they're all bad?
531
00:25:30.579 --> 00:25:31.500
Because like, I.
532
00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:34.210
Think some, you know, hippies like me, we get a
533
00:25:34.230 --> 00:25:37.390
little bit of a... a squeeze of pleasure when we
534
00:25:37.670 --> 00:25:39.960
use agave or honey or something instead of like high
535
00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:43.200
fructose corn syrup. So does that mean like the natural
536
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.759
sugars are, they're just as bad as high fructose corn syrup?
537
00:25:47.059 --> 00:25:49.480
Well, that's what we're going to look at next. So
538
00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:52.650
let's start with agave syrup. You know, you'll see this
539
00:25:52.730 --> 00:25:55.750
in fancy coffee shops. You can get it in your smoothie.
540
00:25:56.410 --> 00:25:59.329
But I couldn't find that much research backing up this
541
00:25:59.430 --> 00:26:04.480
idea that agave deserves this like wellness glow up. So
542
00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:07.400
there's barely any research on it in humans at all.
543
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.380
And when you look at what's in it, it's mostly fructose.
544
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:17.700
Around 85% of agave syrup is fructose. Oh. Huh.
545
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:18.180
Okay.
546
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.779
Agave is more fructose than high fructose corn syrup.
547
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:22.220
Yes.
548
00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:25.980
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And, you know, some scientists argue that
549
00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:29.299
fructose might not be that much worse than glucose. But
550
00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.549
a lot of studies say that it is. So like
551
00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:34.289
I don't see any good reasons to like go for
552
00:26:34.329 --> 00:26:35.529
agave specifically.
553
00:26:35.549 --> 00:26:36.710
Oh, okay.
554
00:26:36.730 --> 00:26:37.279
All right.
555
00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:39.519
Unless it's been turned into a tequila. Yeah.
556
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.480
All right.
557
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.519
So let's look at maple syrup next. There's some buzz
558
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.430
online about how that one's healthier. And there was a
559
00:26:52.450 --> 00:26:55.670
particular trial that comes up a lot. And at first glance,
560
00:26:55.990 --> 00:26:59.450
it looks like maple syrup is healthier. Like, you know,
561
00:26:59.470 --> 00:27:02.700
when you kind of skim the paper, it looked like
562
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.640
they saw a difference between people who were eating maple
563
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.069
syrup and people who are having table sugar. Like, the
564
00:27:10.109 --> 00:27:13.369
maple syrup group had less fat around their bellies. So
565
00:27:13.690 --> 00:27:15.210
I asked Kimber about that study.
566
00:27:15.730 --> 00:27:18.089
I can't tell you how unimpressed I was.
567
00:27:18.049 --> 00:27:19.430
By that study.
568
00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:20.069
Huh.
569
00:27:20.630 --> 00:27:24.730
So the reason she's unimpressed is that these researchers did
570
00:27:24.869 --> 00:27:28.509
dozens and dozens of tests looking for differences in like
571
00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:31.910
health markers between the group which got the maple syrup
572
00:27:32.009 --> 00:27:35.329
and the group that got the normal table sugar. And
573
00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:39.039
out of those dozens of tests, only three showed a difference.
574
00:27:39.829 --> 00:27:45.049
And they turn that into, wow, maple syrup is healthier.
575
00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:50.859
But any statistician will tell you, no, wait, that's within
576
00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.660
the odds of random chance.
577
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:55.680
Right.
578
00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:57.839
You do that many of any study, and some of
579
00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:00.380
them will happen to turn up positive, especially when their
580
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:01.960
p-values are like.
581
00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:04.529
0.047 for one of them.
582
00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:09.500
Oh my God, Meryl, I'm so impressed you said that.
583
00:28:09.539 --> 00:28:12.059
You know exactly what I'm talking about.
584
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:13.799
Yes, exactly.
585
00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:17.789
Yeah. Okay. That's classic. If you run a lot of tests,
586
00:28:17.869 --> 00:28:21.200
some of them could come up showing a positive effect,
587
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:22.660
even if it's just by chance.
588
00:28:22.779 --> 00:28:23.240
Yeah.
589
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.480
And like they could have done some work to like
590
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.529
correct for the fact that they were running so many tests,
591
00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:30.730
but you don't see them do that in the paper.
592
00:28:31.250 --> 00:28:34.230
And on top of that, the study was also funded
593
00:28:34.390 --> 00:28:36.109
by a maple syrup group in Canada.
594
00:28:36.130 --> 00:28:37.509
Oh, I was going to say, yeah.
595
00:28:37.529 --> 00:28:40.210
I was going to say, it's like the Canadian mafia
596
00:28:40.250 --> 00:28:42.730
was like behind this, the Canadian maple syrup mafia.
597
00:28:42.769 --> 00:28:42.910
Yeah.
598
00:28:43.450 --> 00:28:46.140
I mean, it's basically a group of maple syrup producers.
599
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.359
I did reach out to the authors of the study
600
00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:53.720
about these criticisms and didn't hear back. But yeah, this
601
00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:56.700
was the most impressive study I could find on maple syrup.
602
00:28:56.940 --> 00:28:59.319
So I think it's delicious, but I don't think we
603
00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:00.799
have good evidence that it's healthier.
604
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.119
And then you mentioned honey?
605
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:05.069
That's my go-to sugar.
606
00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:05.970
Okay, well.
607
00:29:05.990 --> 00:29:09.309
Uh-oh. Don't ruin my breakfast.
608
00:29:09.410 --> 00:29:12.890
It does seem more promising to me, actually. So, like,
609
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:16.160
there is a big review that came out recently that
610
00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:18.819
looked at all the trials that have been done on honey.
611
00:29:19.059 --> 00:29:21.740
And overall, it looked like there was a benefit with
612
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:22.119
the honey.
613
00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.109
Like, multiple studies saying that people's cholesterol looked better than...
614
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.809
In the sugar, like the table sugar group, for example. Yeah.
615
00:29:30.829 --> 00:29:34.230
And some of the studies found a benefit specifically when
616
00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:39.890
they were giving people so-called raw honey or like unprocessed honey. Oh.
617
00:29:40.819 --> 00:29:41.299
Okay.
618
00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:44.359
But when I talked to Kimber about this, she was
619
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.980
like more positive than she
was with the maple syrup.
620
00:29:47.180 --> 00:29:49.690
But she did see some flaws in those studies too.
621
00:29:49.849 --> 00:29:52.730
Like most of them didn't blind the people in them.
622
00:29:52.849 --> 00:29:56.289
So they knew that they're getting honey and She thought,
623
00:29:56.309 --> 00:29:58.259
you know, maybe if people knew that they were getting
624
00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:01.619
this like supposedly healthy, you know, raw honey, then they'll
625
00:30:01.660 --> 00:30:05.440
do other healthy stuff too. And the review pointed this
626
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.920
out too, saying that at least a dozen of the
627
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.230
studies in their review had this issue. So overall, I
628
00:30:12.289 --> 00:30:16.529
asked Kimber... Bottom line, if you're trying to decide what
629
00:30:16.549 --> 00:30:19.319
to put on your yogurt, should you pick honey over
630
00:30:19.450 --> 00:30:21.500
maple syrup or like brown sugar?
631
00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:29.539
Possibly, yeah, but I would forego it completely and learn
632
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:31.059
to put fruit on.
633
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.380
But is it, do you think because there's a little
634
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.809
bit of evidence that maybe it's better for like certain things,
635
00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:37.990
it's worthwhile?
636
00:30:38.589 --> 00:30:39.630
Substituting it in?
637
00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:45.230
It is questionable enough that if I was forced to
638
00:30:45.289 --> 00:30:52.950
make the decision between natural, unprocessed honey versus sucrose or
639
00:30:53.230 --> 00:30:57.759
any other form of sugar, I would pick the honey.
640
00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:00.240
If someone had a gun to your head and was like, Kimber,
641
00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.259
you must add one of these things to your yogurt,
642
00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:03.400
you would choose the honey.
643
00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:03.680
Exactly.
644
00:31:04.059 --> 00:31:09.019
That's how you'll have to phrase it. So, Rose, how
645
00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:10.579
does that make you feel about your honey?
646
00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:17.440
Well, here's what I would say. By adding some honey
647
00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:22.710
to this slop that I make, the honey makes me
648
00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:26.130
more likely to eat these other things that definitely have
649
00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:28.079
a lot of nutritive value. I have plain Greek yogurt.
650
00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:31.380
Lots of protein in there.
651
00:31:31.579 --> 00:31:34.940
And I do put fruit on it, Kimber. But it's
652
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.279
still kind of sour, depending on the fruit. And I'll
653
00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:39.950
put some nuts or nut butter. I feel like she
654
00:31:39.970 --> 00:31:41.769
gave me a gold star for all that. And if
655
00:31:42.049 --> 00:31:44.269
adding a tablespoon of honey on that gets me to
656
00:31:44.549 --> 00:31:46.470
chow down on that every morning, I feel like it's
657
00:31:46.529 --> 00:31:47.390
probably okay.
658
00:31:48.009 --> 00:31:48.849
But maybe not.
659
00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:49.390
I don't know.
660
00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:52.670
Yeah. I mean, that brings us to this bigger question
661
00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:55.619
of like, overall, should we be feeling guilty about having
662
00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:58.289
some sugar in our lives? Like, Kimber's sort of a
663
00:31:58.309 --> 00:32:01.279
stickler when she says, you know, you really shouldn't have
664
00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:05.490
any added sugar. But other scientists are like, oh, no,
665
00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:07.849
like a little is okay. So like, let's look at
666
00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:11.150
what the World Health Organization says. They focus on something
667
00:32:11.210 --> 00:32:14.769
called free sugar. This is basically the sugar that's added
668
00:32:14.809 --> 00:32:18.549
to stuff. And so they recommend that you don't have
669
00:32:18.609 --> 00:32:22.049
more than 10% of your total calories be made up.
670
00:32:21.990 --> 00:32:22.710
Of this sugar.
671
00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:26.599
And research backs this up. Like one big study I
672
00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:30.019
found looked at how much sugar people ate and then
673
00:32:30.059 --> 00:32:33.759
their risk of dying from cardiovascular disease. And you can
674
00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:36.680
see the risk of death starting to creep up around
675
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:37.059
this 10% mark.
676
00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:39.140
Oh, risk of death.
677
00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:39.720
Okay.
678
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.819
So 10% of your daily calories is not like that intuitive.
679
00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:48.319
Can you give me something I can really sneak my
680
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:48.779
teeth into?
681
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:49.279
Yeah.
682
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.859
So for someone who has 2,000 calories a day, that
683
00:32:51.859 --> 00:32:57.890
10% comes out to 50 grams of sugar. So, for example,
684
00:32:58.130 --> 00:33:01.029
a can of Coke has about 40 grams of sugar
685
00:33:01.069 --> 00:33:03.869
in it. So that would be most of your sugar
686
00:33:03.910 --> 00:33:05.829
budget right there if you had a can of Coke.
687
00:33:06.529 --> 00:33:10.730
Or you could have, like, three chocolate croissants. That's roughly
688
00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:11.930
50 grams of sugar.
689
00:33:11.950 --> 00:33:14.869
Well, because you only put that little nugget of chocolate
690
00:33:14.890 --> 00:33:15.609
in there.
691
00:33:15.650 --> 00:33:17.569
Yeah, it's not actually that much, but that still made
692
00:33:17.589 --> 00:33:21.769
me feel better. You're still eating three croissants.
693
00:33:21.990 --> 00:33:22.650
Yeah.
694
00:33:22.690 --> 00:33:23.589
Some other issues there.
695
00:33:23.630 --> 00:33:23.769
Yeah.
696
00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:28.390
So to me, I was like, oh, that's not too bad.
697
00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:32.579
So I talked about this with Jim
Mann, since he
698
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.799
actually helps the World Health Organization come up with that
699
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.099
10% recommendation. Does that mean I can have like a cupcake? Like,
700
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:39.839
what does that mean?
701
00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:42.200
Can you have a cupcake? Sure, you can have a cupcake.
702
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:45.220
But if you have a cupcake, then don't have something else.
703
00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:50.019
I mean, I had this morning with my coffee, I
704
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:55.000
had some cheesecake. because there's a certain bakery in this
705
00:33:55.180 --> 00:33:59.480
town that makes very good cheesecake. And my daughter happened
706
00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:01.799
to produce some cheesecake from this bakery.
707
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:03.019
And I.
708
00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:05.900
Absolutely enjoyed it.
709
00:34:06.190 --> 00:34:09.250
But I mean, I've made a mental note before we
710
00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:12.869
had this conversation without even thinking, well, that's my dose
711
00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:16.309
for the day. And I enjoyed it. And it was
712
00:34:16.449 --> 00:34:22.579
really good. And it enhanced my well-being tremendously. but I
713
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.719
certainly would not have a dessert tonight.
714
00:34:25.780 --> 00:34:27.869
But you didn't feel guilty about having that slice?
715
00:34:27.969 --> 00:34:29.610
No, I didn't feel I thoroughly enjoyed it.
716
00:34:31.650 --> 00:34:34.050
Yeah, that's reasonable. I mean, full disclosure, I had a
717
00:34:34.050 --> 00:34:36.329
piece of cake before jumping on this call.
718
00:34:37.730 --> 00:34:39.030
I made a cake over the weekend.
719
00:34:39.050 --> 00:34:39.909
Before I told.
720
00:34:39.809 --> 00:34:41.690
You the science of how bad sugar is.
721
00:34:42.269 --> 00:34:44.070
I just gobbled it down.
722
00:34:44.429 --> 00:34:46.469
Then I had honey on my yogurt. So I'm actually
723
00:34:46.489 --> 00:34:48.659
probably over budget today, but I'm definitely not going to
724
00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:50.219
have any more sweets the rest of the day. So
725
00:34:50.500 --> 00:34:51.239
I like his approach.
726
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:51.679
Yeah.
727
00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:52.820
Well, thanks, Rose.
728
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:53.300
Thanks, girl.
729
00:34:57.130 --> 00:34:59.510
So we have 60 citations in this episode.
730
00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:01.329
If you want to look at any of those, read
731
00:35:01.389 --> 00:35:04.130
more about sugar science, then check out our transcripts.
732
00:35:04.250 --> 00:35:05.590
The link is in the show notes.
733
00:35:06.449 --> 00:35:09.329
And the last citation is a special treat, a link
734
00:35:09.349 --> 00:35:12.230
to an episode of Science Versus that was made 10
735
00:35:12.230 --> 00:35:23.099
years ago that was also on sugar. This episode was
736
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.110
produced by me, Meryl Horne, with help from Rose Rimler,
737
00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:29.989
Michelle Dang, and Aketi Foster-Keys. We're edited by Blythe Sorrell.
738
00:35:30.190 --> 00:35:33.650
Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Our executive producer
739
00:35:33.750 --> 00:35:37.409
is Wendy Zuckerman. Fact-checking by Sam Lemenick. Music written by
740
00:35:37.449 --> 00:35:41.639
Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, So Wiley, Emma Munger, and Bumi Hidaka.
741
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:44.860
Thanks to all the researchers we spoke to, including Professor
742
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:50.340
Barry Popkin, Dr. John White, Dr. Nick Fuller, Professor Paul Breslin, Dr.
743
00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:54.150
Richard Johnson, and Dr. Vasanti Malik. Science Versus is a
744
00:35:54.139 --> 00:35:57.510
Spotify Studios original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever
745
00:35:57.530 --> 00:36:00.309
you get your podcasts. And if you do listen on Spotify,
746
00:36:00.349 --> 00:36:03.250
follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications. We'll
747
00:36:03.269 --> 00:36:03.750
fact you soon.
748
00:36:15.380 --> 00:36:17.019
It's been a busy week, right?
749
00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:21.380
Sounds like it's time for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it.
750
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.000
Whether it's extra saucy wings from Nando's, a tasty taco
751
00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:29.199
bowl from Sprout & Co, or maybe even some California
752
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:33.730
birria from Boojum. We'll deliver in as little as 25 minutes.
753
00:36:34.269 --> 00:36:35.949
Order now. You've earned it.
754
00:36:36.409 --> 00:36:36.989
Deliveroo.
755
00:36:37.570 --> 00:36:40.610
That finish line Friday feeling just got even better.
756
00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:43.969
Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary.
757
00:36:44.010 --> 00:36:45.090
See app or web for info.