สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
Patruni Chidananda Sastry: Hi, Namaste and welcome to SAS Net Werk This is a podcast by Patruni Chidanda sastry. I am a drag artist from Hyderabad and a professional. ⁓ And in this podcast, ⁓ I will be talking with some guests ⁓ from the spectrum.
speaker-0: Hi everyone, my name is Patruni Chidanda sastry. You can also call me Sasuma and I'm here with a new podcast called as the Sas Werk. ⁓ Here I talk about the conversations with the leaders across the board. And ⁓ this is the very first episode of SaS Net werk I hope you'll have a very conversation. With me is a very interesting friend to kind of start with and also a DEI leader, somebody who has done a great
Patruni Chidananda Sastry: about diversity, equity and inclusion at workspace,
speaker-0: amount of initiatives to include inclusion, not just as a ⁓ mark activity, ⁓ more of an equity driven approach ⁓ ⁓ on livelihood projects which she has worked with. openly bisexual woman and someone has been leading bisexual visibility across the ⁓ queer as well. So I'm super happy to kind of welcome you all.
Patruni Chidananda Sastry: Share your support, SAS Net Werk is available ⁓ in more than 10-plus podcasting channels, ⁓ and including social channels like YouTube and Instagram. Do share this conversations with your colleagues, with your friends, with your partners. And let's create a momentum
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm so happy that you are my first guest because I always admired your work and the kind of lens which you kind of put in across. And I'm really happy that, you know, we are opening up with someone like you in from Hyderabad again, I kind of always boast about. So to start with, you please introduce yourself to our audience who are listening to you for the very first time and give us a little bit glimpse about your, ⁓ how you start your DEI journey?
Patruni Chidananda Sastry: So why wait? Let's go ahead and bring in our next guest to the SAS network. You are watching SAS Net
speaker-1: Yeah, thank you, SAS. Thank you for inviting me. I feel privileged that I'm the first guest. So Deepthi. I'm from Hyderabad. I'm a Dalit ⁓ woman. I'm also a mother of two children. Professionally, a project manager at Nirman Organization. I am working on creating livelihoods for LGBTQ communities. And I'm also working with women farmers in Vicarabad district for creating opportunities for them. Apart from that, also a human rights activist. involved with a few state level and national level groups working on different causes. yeah, that is what we.
speaker-0: Okay, thank you so much, Deepthi. To kind of start with, know, like, my first question would be, somewhere when we kind of start working in the DEI sector, one of the labels which are not so found or kind of being included, even if you talk about intersectionality, ⁓ in the Indian context is the caste label. ⁓ I want to kind of start from there because the conversation is something which is really important to place on record, like how caste has always been seen as a separate entity from the overall inclusion and diversity. ⁓ in reality, ⁓ both a very significant role. Would you like to add some ⁓ thoughts about same? And is your lived experience any, gave you any kind of to look at it ⁓ when you are working in DEI sector?
speaker-1: mean this identity, I'm not the only one I'm sure. So for Dalit queer people, the identity is not just an axiom that is an add-on to our work. So it's the lens through which we look at the world and navigate through spaces and workplace too. So corporates DEI, they usually the ideas or the frameworks are based on US intersectionalities which are race and gender and maybe disability and ⁓ But caste is not something that makes it to their checklist. It's very deep structural again which ⁓ determines who quality education, who builds networks, has ⁓ social capital, who the confidence to walk into spaces and who speaks fluent English, all these. And somehow these get ignored or are blind to these ideas because they have US-based frameworks. And as Dalit people, all these of discrimination of caste and gender and sexuality, these do not in silos or nothing happens in isolations. So when we step into corporate spaces, for example, I mean, I feel like calling out the performative that they do, having pride flags without any real safety nets for queer people or people marginalized castes and no representation of castes at all in diversity panels. mean, for them diversity, there are few checkboxes for diversity which does not include So there is zero representation of marginalized castes in diversity panels. even if you look at hiring, drives, they completely ignore the caste ⁓ or numbers. So these experiences, know, my lived experiences and people ⁓ have known with similar identities, similar deceptionalities, these, you know, we come up with these hard questions like, you know, who is getting into referrals, because again is a social capital network is a privilege. ⁓ So who has access these networks, ⁓ and who getting mentored? ⁓ And who labeled cultural fit in the space, in the corporate and who exists very quietly in the corner because they never felt belonged or made to feel that they don't belong there. So all these traditional frameworks where visibility is given more importance, the rainbow logos, all the photo ops, so there's a need for pushing something more deeper about distributing resources and power. So that is what ⁓ I think DILACS incorporates.
speaker-0: Yeah, thank you so much for highlighting. Yeah. Thank you so much for highlighting that I think it's really important aspect which you have shared, you know, especially when it kind of, you know, when it's not holistic and it's very performative. If it's performative for one particular identity, it is performative for the holistic community in itself. Coming back, you also pointed out that, because our framework itself is something which is very Western based, a like a US based. to kind of start with
Load full transcript
majoritally. I would like to know because with your work which you have done for past few years, ⁓ you always given this equity approach to awareness. ⁓ It's just a way where corporate is funding ⁓ and things are getting done, ⁓ but is an employability, is upskilling ⁓ programs you have led with your organization. So could you please ⁓ help us? our audience understand like, know, what was that thought process or the idea came from, you know, like, why did you think that it was really important ⁓ equip people than that of just using CSR as a donation or a charity.
speaker-1: Because skills are for life. If you're talking about the upskilling programs I have done, skills are for life. And not everybody in the community gets an access to learn these skills because even these spaces are very limited and the ⁓ selection beneficiaries is done on a very different basis. There are not many, except for ⁓ traditional or conservative skill training programs like tailoring and beautician. we do not see much even for women and the LGBT communities, it's computers or English skills as if we don't know any of these. But yes, of course, there's a large population within the community who do not have access to these. ⁓ so, and keeping in that gap and also what is more employable in the market at that moment. We designed programs accordingly and selected people accordingly. And that's why I think we have been successful in implementing those programs. cannot say we, I mean, I do not say that it was 100 % success in the placements or the impact, but yes, it was much better than what happened a few years ago, which was again, a lot of NGOs and corporates, what they have done is they copy the same model that they do for women. And they copied the same model for the queer communities as well, which is why it had failed. Because they do not consider the intersectionalities and what next or the access to resources for queer people. So ⁓ probably the reason why those programs haven't been able to create an impact. ⁓ yeah, that was the reason. And also, you're talking about the D.I. frameworks, right?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, DIA frameworks, I like I said, it's very heavily US-centric or US-based. Everything is about race. They talk about race. mean, that's why, you know, we seen people here talking about ⁓ Black Matter, but not Dalit Lives Matter. So, ⁓ it's and gender and sometimes veterans also disability, but not caste. And when you talk about caste, it's labeled very controversial or very political or not relevant here. But the truth is just the opposite because it's a lived experience for a population of the country ⁓ where happens day. People get killed. People do not get access to resources. People cannot build something from what they have only because of the caste marker.
speaker-0: you wear two hats, you wear multiple hats, for people, ⁓ again, if I'm seeing it the DEI space, you two hats. ⁓ One you know, who's working with the corporates on a regular basis, ⁓ and the other one you know, someone who is an activist. ⁓ So, yeah, there is ⁓ is which is required in the activism. Whereas there is this groundiness which is required in working with corporates, etc. How do you balance that? is there a way where you have a punch bag which you kind of use it to take off that stress?
speaker-1: Yeah, sometimes I become the hypocrite that I call out usually, because the bitter truth, the sad truth is that corporates giving the money. The government is not individuals are not NGOs are not nobody else is giving money. So sometimes we to wear this mask of, you know, aligning with what corporate wants. But yes, that doesn't mean I compromise on ⁓ I believe in because ⁓ implementation or execution of the or the project, I am in charge of So I ⁓ try to bring those values into the work I do rather than that, ⁓ you know, trying fight for it in space where it might go unheard or it might impact the ⁓ funding. So yes, ⁓ being a little diplomatic in these spaces. Of course, in activism spaces, I don't need to. I'm ⁓ myself. I can be vocal about anything. I can go all out. But yes, in corporate spaces, ⁓ maintain a certain level of restraint to get things done. I know it might be hypocritical, but yes. But at the end of the day, we need the money and we need resources.
speaker-0: No, I think you pointed out something which is really wonderful and there was also a very senior activist I was speaking with. don't want to name them, but someone who said a very wise thing like, know, it is really important that, you know, to have a vision of, you know, when there's a conflict of identities, you know, it's really important you think about the larger crowd of the community than, you know, just being in that particular space to kind of you know, putting our own self into place. ⁓ I think you are one of the most balanced and sought out person I Thank you so much for that. And when I'm saying sought out, the lights of my house are always blinking. Coming back to the question, you know, the era which we're living in, especially where we see that ⁓ there is lot of, you know, anti-Quiar bills, anti-DEI bills.
speaker-1: I'm sorry.
speaker-0: We have also seen that there are times where the BI is getting backrolled on constant basis. We also see that there is a very deliberate attempt to dismiss any kind of DEI happening within the global scenario. At this time, at this juncture, what do you think should be our strategy or ways to relook into DEI and what should we do as individuals working in this sector to ensure that the progress is continued and not stopped because of some whitehead person sitting in of white nation ⁓ trying to command the world.
speaker-1: So, yeah, thanks to Donald Trump and the rise of right-wing everywhere in the world. So, this polarization that is happening, it's definitely a setback. And in India also, it's a bit quiet. mean, it's not like, you know, there is a very dramatic rollback, public
rollback, but there is a very clear effect. you know, after 2020, the global polarization it actually started on the full scale and especially Trump's second term. So Indian companies, they became very cautious about the language they use, about their public commitments, ⁓ the statements that they show. So the is softened and they shift from equity to ⁓ very vague words wellness and belonging and culture and inclusion rather than equity and diversity. has definitely changed, it has changed the funding also. And all these, the conversations also, these become very ⁓ and it also becomes structural because Indian leaders, they have to worry about the backlash from ⁓ investors about or ⁓ their own ⁓ heavily Savarna represented boards. you know, this retreat called this rollback, it's it's not always about policy only, it's also about the language, the energy, there's very less urgency to do something. And there's a lot of hesitation to talk about something and do something. And a of rebranding also happening. So what can we ⁓ We have to around these challenges. I mean, if they want to change the language, let us change the language if they want to say ⁓ belonging, we also can raise questions about who belongs where and we can a little more strategic and you know, apolitical. Of course, querysit is political but like I said, know, we have to ⁓ maintain the balance we also need to look at the larger picture. yes, we need to ⁓ work within those smartly and navigate.
speaker-0: So thank you so much for answering that ⁓ question, Deepthi. And I would like to kind of add on from our previous conversation itself that ⁓ how we spoke about the effect of ⁓ change or rebranding of ⁓ on name of DEI. Like as you pointed out, like, you know, we are right now using a new language called as ⁓ belonging and kind of belonging which we kind of ⁓ are to. I wanted to check with you like because of... this changes which are happening on a global map. ⁓ there any effect on the current funding of projects? And what be the one ways which like NGOs or ⁓ where the of people who are receiving care or are receiving support ⁓ via CSR via DEI should do? especially to kind of ensure that the momentum is on. And there is no specific issue in going ahead and accessing funds at the right time.
speaker-1: Hmm. We as activists, we cannot do much. mean, we have to engage with the government more because if one source is closing, we have to make sure that the doors open the point. So the government is already taking some measures, but ⁓ it not be holistic, but at least there's a So ⁓ as activists, make sure that, you know, these policies or, know, whatever the initiatives that the government is taking up, it also makes it to the policy level. Because there's a very ⁓ clear lack of policy DEI at the government level. Be any party, be it any political party, there's a lack of policy. So that is ⁓ one ⁓ we do. And funding like I said, we should be smart enough to work around with terminology
that the corporates are using. cannot, ⁓ I mean, Because it's a larger fair and we have to choose our battles very wisely even making them understand and convincing them or, you trying ⁓ getting them change their whole path. It's almost an impossible thing because ⁓ it's not just boardroom discussion or decision. It's a larger thing. There's a lot of hierarchy involved in it and we would only be wasting our energies and time. ⁓ in fighting those. instead of that, we had to take a balanced and diplomatic approach and work our way through all these challenges that the current systems pose and all these challenges that happen politically or elsewhere, all these are reflected again in the corporate policies also. yes, working with the government closely and navigating through the challenges that the conflict was. This is the best we can do as of now.
speaker-0: Great, so thank you so much for that. In your programs which were curating for the queer community, there was one very constant theme which is about educating with STEM, science, technology, education, what is MSTEM, And you have constantly kind of added like curriculums like empowering individuals AI tools or ⁓ working with more holistic technology. So technology has always been a very key aspect in your work, especially when you're creating it. So I wanted to know because the technology also plays a very important role. How do you see technology being firstly accessible to queer people? And what do you think are some of the issues with technology in itself?
speaker-1: The problem is the technology is not a person or it's not a tangible thing and it's technology is never neutral. That's the main ⁓ issue because it's built by people with certain biases and these biases leak into the technology as well. If you take AI tools, for example, everything is trained on past data, right? Everything on all the AI tools are trained on past data. ⁓ ⁓ the leadership or the people who have been having over it have been Savarna or Savarna and male then all these algorithms they learn these or you similar profiles as successful so all these biases they ⁓ in ⁓ either be it of resumes very ⁓ interfaces which are very English heavy and the filters, college filters, only elite institutions and pipelines. And referral they usually ⁓ favor the networks. They do not allow even new. So yeah, so this the problem with technology, but this can that is the con, but the pros are that, know, can blind hiring and it can also disrupt based evaluations. They also enable anonymous reporting channels also. So I think the question should be, is tech biased or is it discriminatory? It's who builds it, who is building the technology, who is auditing it. ⁓ holds the power to fix it? Because technology often fails marginalized So I think we should start asking the right kind of questions.
speaker-0: Yeah, thank you so much for adding, you know, this aspect regarding technology. ⁓ Now, other thing which is also a buzzword, but also very interesting, you know, things which come up into ⁓ query is data. ⁓ Because itself is something which can't be tangibly datafied or, know, we can't get those query data is never something which is easier to kind of access. Yeah. Then initiate a program or to initiate, ⁓ to fund a DI initiative, data becomes a very critical ⁓ ⁓ corporates as well as capitalist environments. But then any ⁓ instances where you felt that ⁓ there's data bias within ⁓ corporate or DI sector, ⁓ and is your thoughts on ⁓ how data represented now? ⁓ in these spaces.
speaker-1: So for any kind of program design, data is essential, but very often we see that it is considered as the full picture. mean, so it can be only be a starting point, but it cannot be the full picture. So ⁓ all ⁓ dashboards have representation percentages, but they miss the daily lived realities about how microaggressions happen during the meetings. They do not consider the silences, the fears of being outed. They do not consider the exclusion that happens during socialization after work or all these weekend parties and everything. ⁓ All these and data cannot capture all these. So that is a huge gap. And know, caste often hides in these clues that I spoke about in this exclusion all the surnames, ⁓ language, your food preference, your social circles. So any of Excel sheets or any kind of data does not capture any of this. So probably technology can help spot these patterns, ⁓ to get a understanding, ⁓ you need to more. mean, ⁓ the corporates or leaderships, they need to listen more and there has to a more empathetic and open approach as well. should also enable ⁓ kind of safe ⁓ anonymous reporting ⁓ on feedback that get because a lot of times might be a lot of truth, a lot of feedback that can be very discomforting also and they should be willing to be empathetic and open to receiving such critics also. Yes.
speaker-0: Great. So you have answered a critical part of my job is the work as a data person. So thank you for adding that. And I think this gives a lot of value for people who are listening to, especially, it's always ⁓ data, the of data is coming because there's a majority in idea of ⁓ majority in majority in religion in countries like India. So the numbers always would be speaking more for that part, you know, never kind of look into the marginalized because there are always numbers which are less. So I think that is something which is, know, which is. ⁓
speaker-1: So I want to add on something here. this data, even the government makes the same mistakes. So they just collect numbers, for example, they want to design something, they want to come up with a program or some initiative for ⁓ transgender population here. So they just look at the overall numbers, but they do not consider again, you know, all these intersectional markers, even within the data, they do not have any information on it at all. So I think before the corporates, I was engaging more with the government. So. is where I
had seen this pattern about how data is becoming useless. ⁓ is becoming just another tool to discriminate people because now you know where exactly this person lives, where exactly cluster of transgender people are living. So it becomes a tool for the government to oppress them more rather than to ⁓ them using the data to create something more worthwhile.
speaker-0: you have a lot of heart to it. ⁓ And I just want to understand do you joy in this clustered environment, if I could say. ⁓ How do you find that joy? And what is thread of joy you onto?
speaker-1: The joy that I find in the, you know, it's not this ⁓ good or ⁓ ⁓ style or movie style that comes from, you know, the surface level winds or just some foot ops in the corporates. So ⁓ is deeply rooted in, know, anti caste and fear justice, intersectional justice, because I strongly believe in the ambit correct principles of intersectional justice as well. it's more fears and Sometimes it's often very quiet also in corporate spaces. It's very quiet because language is soft. ⁓ Even language I use is very soft and I'm very quiet. ⁓ So find joy in ⁓ where resistance ⁓ or there be very small acts of liberation and where I don't have to shrink or ⁓ maybe I people not shrink in certain spaces. I don't know how to put it I never spoke about this, the joy of doing the work that I do. The is maybe the joy of recognition and belonging. I mean, let me use the corporate language of belonging.
speaker-0: I to share this because it comes to the point. Sometimes ⁓ you that you feel joy in helping people find, have that little moment of resistance. And I know a fact that there have been a lot of common friends who are ⁓ where ⁓ it's a I say, very capitalist environment. ⁓ And then ⁓ you put artist like me or like my friends to kind of subtly go ahead and instill a little bit of resistance, you know, do a very political based up front on people. ⁓ ⁓ know, once is done, we find that, okay, we have done something good. So I have had such experiences with you and also my friends have been working together. ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ yeah.
speaker-0: I think that in itself is a collective joy.
speaker-1: Very much collective joy is a part of our queer culture as well. mean, there lot of times we have collective joy than individual joy because individually it feels sometimes powerless also, but we find strength in collection, collective soul. sometimes also joy in, know, speaking out loud in spaces where you're not supposed to, for example, we know that, you know, the space is very castist or... recognize caste, I see that, you know, hey, I'm a Dalit queer woman. ⁓ if somebody else is also sharing their story of caste, then that is ⁓ a joyful moment for me. it's, it's the opposite of isolation, where, know, I feel shrunk and isolated in certain spaces. And when you're saying it out loud and resisting that, you know, oppressive structure, that's also a joy. ⁓ in DI spaces when it is done right, we also create space for people to feel whole, bits and pieces are fragmented. So the sense of, I belong here and I belong here as I am. So I can be myself that is is a very profound joy and of course, a rebellious joy of where we are expected to stay quiet and be of ourselves and everything is tokenized for us, ⁓ just rainbow flags. So if you show up as being ourself full and apologetic, then that's itself is an act of rebellion and naming cast in corporate boardrooms, that is something I take a joy in because I always start my introduction as a Dalit woman. also like to see how people respond. It's, a again, the kind of responses ⁓ itself is again.
speaker-0: Yeah, I it's so put well, I could say that, you know, this question actually found a, I would say, I haven't had, I don't about Joy because it's very late that, you know, I started discussing about Joy. ⁓ It's tedious work to kind of do, you know, ⁓ I find. ⁓
speaker-1: we are expected to talk only about struggles, not noise for some reason. We can only imagine about begampura. We can imagine about building a begampura, but we cannot talk about it. mean, DI is not only about fixing what is broken, right? We also have to have this imagination of having something happy. So my imagination is always about begampura.
speaker-0: Bye. I think one of things I ⁓ also about to say that ⁓ should not be struggling to talk about joy but we should be struggling to talk about which joy we want. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, actually, that's the kind of struggles we should have to face. This is Ambedkar's vision of a caste-less society or this place, Begampura. So this is something that I have been thinking about a lot of time and also, know, that is also where we can find collective joy and also individual joy as well, because everybody
speaker-0: So, ⁓
speaker-1: is equal in such a space. know, maybe a very utopian concept of now, but definitely can a distance possibility, distant possibility.
speaker-0: adding on to this wonderful question and answer, which I kind of got, I just want to ask you on a very quick note, ⁓ you have to recommend three organizations ⁓ you think are doing a very interesting job, and especially these organizations, again, coming from the DEI space, ⁓ if you would like to recommend to our audience, which organizations that be?
speaker-1: organizations as an NGOs or corporate.
speaker-0: NGOs, would say NGOs because know, corporates anyway have their marketing team. queer NGOs or queer individuals if you think ⁓ should be kind of, you like, we don't about queer individuals for this work. And sometimes the AI being kind of hidden because of this over-loudliness corporate. So if you have someone to kind of highlight or some organization which would like to highlight
speaker-1: That's very difficult because there lot of individuals who are you know, kind of doing some wonderful work in their own space. mean, you, you talk about lot of social issues through drag, which is very different from what other drag artists do. So
definitely, ⁓ are in the list and
speaker-0: And anybody else whom I need to follow,
speaker-1: No!
speaker-0: You know the question is for me.
speaker-1: You and I up. So me have organizations of course Nirman is one because they have taken a bold step of you know setting up the campus. I it doesn't matter whether the campus will exist in the future but at least they have taken a step it is the first in Hyderabad. So Nirman is one and then RooBooroo also does a lot of work with ⁓ the community. and again, Yungistan, very inclusive organization, ⁓ I say. And you think of many more, I mean, Hyderabad based, these three ⁓ individuals, there a lot of individuals, would be, I don't know, very, it would be unfair if I name only a few and skip out on the others. Maybe it would be to say that you and me for now.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that is good. yeah, I would also ask you offline to get some names which I can interview. But you ⁓ much.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can definitely do that. sorry. Yeah. So there's Nandita who ⁓ the first trans person here to have got a doctorate. And course, Rachana and Vaijayanti, we all know for the women's contribution they have done not just to the transgender community, but to the queer community as a whole. And there some people who have broken a lot stereotypes. For example, Ania, daughter of Mala aunty who has done her PhD in medicine. ⁓ Tashi, of course. I mean, This Aditya of QT center and this Kiran Raj who has the first trans person trans man here but has a business on his name of his own And since this is so sudden, I'm trying to gather names. There's Apurva, been creating very beautiful cultural spaces. And I don't know, I might be biased again in this.
speaker-0: No worries, but I think thank you so much for sharing those names because you know that that gives a chain of reactions, know chain of people to kind of look up for and kind of connect with individuals.
speaker-1: And yeah, Neyut. this was the first name that I had in my mind, but somehow I missed it. So Neyut, who's also a DBA queer person ⁓ been doing a wonderful job in, you ⁓ bringing awareness about the Ambedkar ideology and has been hosting a lot of wonderful events. ⁓ that also one name I would definitely recommend to anyone to talk about these intersections also.
speaker-0: Great, I hope of these names, I at least bring a few for the podcast. But thank you so much for taking time and being with me through this entire process ⁓ of my first And I think ⁓ I'm super happy have you and start with you, this journey. ⁓ Hopefully, I would be to kind of get some nuanced conversations ⁓ and let a few listen to this because... ⁓ This is one of the spaces which is not sponsored, and I don't want to get sponsored. We have our own free speech within this space. think thank you so much for contributing, and thank you so much for being a part of SAS network. I hope to kind of, I wish you all the best for all your future work. you are an inspiration for a lot of people. And I think. We always look up to you and we always kind of cherish you for whatever you do.
speaker-1: That's so ⁓ Zen too and thank you so much. ⁓ I really liked what you said. I hope some corporates or some people see this. Again, that is a joy of passing on that fire. ⁓ thank you ⁓ this raw conversation because change not come from ⁓ comfort. has to come from a courage and by being explicit and from naming what
speaker-0: Okay
speaker-1: broken. So if you are in a position to influence and then you should definitely start. I mean, it's okay even if you start small, but you have to start now because our future depends on it. And yeah, so please stay intersectional and stay fierce.
speaker-0: you so much. To who are listening to us in this episode, please do go ahead and subscribe to our channel. Because honestly, you subscribe, you don't know what exactly is coming next. ⁓ And please follow Deepthi and ⁓ her We will be tagging our social accounts in all the avenues. SAS Network is also available in most of the podcasting platforms. So please go ahead ⁓ and listen. Share with people. Share it with your corporate, especially that HR who is transphobic. or queerphobic, I'm kidding, but it's really important that know, this conversations have been heard. And with that, no thank you so much, Deepthi, thank you everyone who's listening to us and signing off.
speaker-1: Thank you so much, JB.