บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ How Disability Challenges Our Ideas About God • Amy Kenny, PhD • S11 E2

humans, I think we bump up against that. 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:18.160 Like it, it it can be harmful, I guess, is what I'm saying to think of ourselves as invincible and independent because we're not. 00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:27.439 And so I'm just curious what I don't know, did you do you feel like you had an experience early on in your life of recognizing I'm neither invincible nor independent? 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:34.480 And that doesn't actually mean I'm broken or should be excluded or any of these other things. 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:35.600 Do you know what I'm saying? 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:49.519 Like I'm just wondering how whether that was, I don't know, a good thing to recognize these truths about yourself in a way that maybe someone like me growing up in my body mind had to come at like a lot later or with more, I don't know, pain and loss of a sense of self or something. 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:53.040 It seems like so few people actually want to be human. 00:05:53.040 --> 00:06:03.199 We want to create a God in our image, and we want to become godlike or impenetrable. 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.079 And we just know that isn't true. 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:17.759 We we know that all of us are interdependent, that we're all interconnected, that none of us are invincible or independent simply by virtue of being human. 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:21.439 And I am so grateful to be a human. 00:06:21.439 --> 00:06:34.480 So often us disabled folks are the ghost of Christmas future in that we're reminding everyone that we're all human and there's no hierarchy of humanity. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:38.800 We're all interconnected and we're all interdependent. 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:44.480 So let's pause for just a minute because we've used this term already because of your subtitle. 00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:50.319 But um, I just want to make sure that listeners know what we're talking about with the word ableism. 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:59.519 That is a word, again, that um even once I had a daughter who, you know, was diagnosed with Down syndrome, I still took me a while to be like, wait, what is ableism? 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:00.319 How does that function? 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:01.439 What does that look like? 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:08.000 Um, could you either, well, maybe give us a definition, but also some personal examples of experiences of ableism? 00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:18.800 It turns out I'm just one kale, kale smoothie or essential oil away from becoming non-disabled in a lot of people's minds. 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:29.519 And as the title of my first book would suggest, folks are constantly coming up to me and projecting their limited ideas of disability onto me. 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.800 Take when a stranger asks, can I pray for you? 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:48.240 And I share something that I might want prayer for in my life, in relationships, at work, in my day-to-day, and they resist, only willing to pray for my disability and to pray that my disability be erased. 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:58.480 Or when someone immediately conflates disability with a lack of worth, a lack of capability, a lack of dignity. 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:10.480 Whether folks mean to or not, these actions are rooted in the idea that some body minds are better than others, or what we might call ableism. 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:23.279 A system that places value on people's body minds based on what we've decided is normal, smart, capable, or excellent. 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:32.000 It's connected to other systems of oppression, of course, and it tells us that there's this hierarchy of humanity. 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:37.039 Of course, we know that all of us are made in the image of God. 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:43.840 There's no asterisk or caveat to that that doesn't include disabled folks. 00:08:43.840 --> 00:09:02.399 And yet sometimes when a stranger is trying to pray me away, or when someone is offering me some sort of prayer or potion to get rid of my disability, that that experience is something that I really want people to rethink. 00:09:02.399 --> 00:09:10.720 And I want to hold true to the theology that we are all divine, regardless of whether we identify as disabled. 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:27.840 We've already gotten to some of these examples of people, often Christians, who say and do things that can disregard or diminish your humanity, your giftedness, your right to participate in a community, the full humanity of other people with disabilities, this kind of long list of um really offenses. 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:31.679 And yet the other part of the subtitle is a joyful witness. 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.039 So I wanted to talk there that or ask you about that as well. 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:44.639 Like, where does a joyful witness come from and what does it look like amidst, you know, ignorance and prejudice and even outright abuse that you've received? 00:09:45.200 --> 00:10:02.080 I really practice joy as for myself, for my own spiritual formation, for the way that it cultivates a type of patience and kindness and levity in me. 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:08.399 It also allows for me to not take myself too seriously, which I think is always a welcome invitation. 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:27.120 Whenever joy is left out of a conversation, we can be perpetuating the ableist nonsense of thinking that disabled folks are lacking or are slacking in some kind of way when we're using productivity as a measure of worth. 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:35.919 Sometimes in conversations about disability and faith, disability is thought of as sinful, as we've already identified. 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:42.080 Other times, disability is thought of as super pious and proper and saint-like. 00:10:42.080 --> 00:10:51.360 And that's an issue too, because we're humans and we have all of the mess and muck that is part of being a human. 00:10:51.360 --> 00:11:04.240 Maybe this is why it's so difficult for non-disabled people to

recognize the quality of life and the vibrancy of disability. 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:13.120 For me, jokes are a joyful resistance to the idea that my life is not worth living. 00:11:13.120 --> 00:11:22.159 Joy acts as a community builder, it connects us to one another, it invites people in instead of canceling people out. 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:36.480 That's my hope at least, that joy can be a way to build community and to invite people to experience some of disability other than in those ableist categories. 00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:41.120 You write about your humor, um, and you write with humor also. 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:56.559 Um, but just the ways I was curious because on the one hand, exactly what you just said, like, you know, we don't like disability is not all seriousness, and it there is a levity and a lightheartedness that is possible and delightful in this life. 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:01.039 And um, as my friend Catherine Wolf says, like, don't wait to celebrate. 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:03.919 Like, here we are right now, as we are, let's do it. 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:05.120 And I love that. 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:25.600 And you also, though, write about how part of your own like defense against the ableism in the world has been humor, that it's been this way of like, hey, since you're not going to take me seriously or pay attention to me or regard me as a human, maybe if I'm funny, that'll get your, you know, that'll get your attention. 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:43.759 Like, so can you talk about that tension between humor as both like a part of who you are that's like delightful and fun and invitational, and also the sense of like, okay, maybe if I use my wit and my humor, I'll actually be seen as like more human than you would otherwise. 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:45.919 Well, thank you for saying I write with humor. 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.080 That's that's delightful to receive. 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.000 So I'm glad this is being recorded. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:51.279 That's very kind. 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:57.600 Take this example that I shared before of someone asking to pray for me. 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:09.759 And often I'll share something I need prayer for, and there'll be resistance, and they'll respond, no, I want to pray for your disability, or I want to pray for your wheelchair or something like that. 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:16.320 So then I ask, okay, well, you can pray for me, but only if I can pray for you first. 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.919 And then I will pray for God to heal their ableism. 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.039 It works every time. 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:52.799 I do that as a way to use humor to take some of the sting out of the ableism of that moment, to hold true to the theology that we know to be true, that I'm made in the image of God, and to not resort to a lecture or a liturgy or uh some words I don't want to use to folks in that moment. 00:13:52.799 --> 00:14:00.080 Humor allows for me to take a situation that's often weaponized and disarm it. 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:09.120 And it allows for us to make a joke about an experience where I'm not the butt of the joke. 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:37.200 Allowing for us to laugh together can build a bridge, but it also sets a boundary to say that we're not gonna laugh at my disabled body mind, or indeed the disabled body minds or attributes of other folks in our community, but we can laugh together about something that is silly or a joke that I make about mobility devices or about my life. 00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:39.360 Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:46.000 Um, this is kind of a different tact, but I did want to ask you about you wrote um nature is delightfully disabled. 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:56.159 And that's been one of the things, again, that I feel like I've learned from your writing in both My Body is a Prayer Request and hearing you on some podcasts as well as um here in My Disability is Divine. 00:14:56.159 --> 00:15:12.799 Can you just speak to like the ways in which you see disability in nature and how that has, or might I don't know if it's changed your perspective, but it certainly might change some of our perspectives on um disability if we have eyes to see the ways in which you're seeing uh the nature out there. 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:29.600 I spend time in the community of creation every day intentionally to learn from the wisdom of the community of creation, to connect and often to take a breath in the midst of chaos. 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:45.600 I've noticed in doing that how much of the community of creation displays attributes that if in humans we might use disability as a context for description. 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:58.399 In the book, I talk about how deep beneath the ocean surface an octopus has arms growing out of their head and can camouflage to hide from predators. 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:09.120 They're masters of disguise and they're changing their tint and texture to replicate nearby coral and rocks. 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:24.000 And that physiological change reminds me a lot of the fluidity of dynamic disability or sometimes called episodic disability, which describes this experience of access needs fluctuating from day to day. 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:30.240 Sometimes I need help getting dressed, sometimes I don't. 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:35.039 But on old days, I can knock your socks off. 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:49.840 And this idea that I resonate with something that the octopus experiences or showcases is something that we see throughout a lot of the community of creation. 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:56.559 I'm from Australia, as you know, and kangaroos don't walk backwards. 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:59.039 Yet they're awesome. 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:06.640 They hop and bop, and they're they're fun and adorable and exciting. 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:12.720 And no one talks about kangaroos as feeble because they can't walk a certain way. 00:17:12.960 -->

00:17:13.200 Yeah. 00:17:13.359 --> 00:17:17.359 No one mocks sharks for communicating without speaking. 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:28.240 I've never heard anyone mock an ostrich or claim that an ostrich is weaker than an Oreo because it cannot fly. 00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:34.720 There are so many examples of disability throughout the community of creation. 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:43.680 And I think that can be a lesson to us to really rethink the hierarchy we've created of body minds in humans. 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:44.480 Yeah. 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:55.440 I'm thinking also this is a different example because it is not from creation, but it's similar to that sense of um, we're not mocking, you know, an ostrich for not flying. 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:58.720 We're also not mocking human beings for not flying, you know. 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:12.799 But one of the things you point out is that um virtually everyone, at least who lives in America and other like similarly developed countries, uses wheels to go from one place to another every single day. 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:19.519 And yet sees someone in a wheelchair as uh problematic somehow. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:24.319 Like the instead of being like, yep, that's we can sit around. 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.799 Yes, make it make sense. 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:27.440 Yeah. 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:40.079 I just think that sense of like having a mindset of deficit, of seeing what is like quote unquote wrong or not able, disabled, as opposed to that mindset of like, what an amazing creature. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:48.960 Like, and what is distinctive and beautiful and fun and life-giving about this creature, we do that when it comes to the natural world. 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:52.559 Um, what would it, what changes when we do that for one another? 00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:21.599 And do not assume that there is a normative way of being, whether that's body, mind, spirit, but actually that um this diversity of ways of being is actually part of the the giftedness and part of the being made in the image of God, that we are each reflecting all sorts of aspects of um of who God is and how um we are only able to actually know who God is in and through understanding each other in love in that diversity, I think. 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:22.480 Yeah. 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:23.279 Yeah. 00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:38.240 And how much can we learn from one another and accompany one another in expanding who we know God to be from interacting with the biodiversity of the community of creation? 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:48.960 I it's never made sense to me that we, that many of us use wheels to propel forward motion and get somewhere quickly. 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:56.319 And we call it a bus, a bike, a car, a train, and that's totally fine. 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:04.720 But when it comes to my wheels, my mobility scooter or my wheelchair, that's somehow negative or lacking. 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:06.319 Make it make sense. 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:22.640 So, really inviting folks to recognize some of the stigma that we've inherited and some of the ways that we've constructed this notion of disability and decided how we're applying it. 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:31.039 And often we're applying it rather inconsistently and in a way that doesn't adhere to some of what we say we believe. 00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:32.160 Totally. 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.000 Um, and and I think again, that's part of why your work is so helpful. 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:47.039 And it brings me to this uh next quotation I wrote down disability is a culture and an embodied experience that shifts over time and can teach non-disabled people what it means to be human. 00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:58.640 And honestly, for me, that is um, I think the center of the work that I do is basically saying, yeah, I learned how to be human through my daughter with Down syndrome. 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.880 And that's not because I have Down syndrome. 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:15.359 It's not because the only way to be human is to have Down syndrome, but it is because the magnifying glass that um I had essentially because of her under trying to understand her humanity reflected something that was deeply true about me that I needed to understand. 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:23.039 So I would love to hear you reflect also on how it is that we learn to be human through the culture and embodied experience of disability. 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.200 Thanks for sharing that with me. 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:35.359 So often, whether we admit it or not, many of us are caught up in our accolades and accomplishments. 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:39.599 And we seem to conflate that with our worth. 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:45.440 We think that that is what equips us with dignity and worth. 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.319 And we just know that that is not true. 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:55.200 And I'm so grateful it isn't true because all of us are made in the image of God. 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.759 When I talk about disability as a culture and an embodied experience. 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:01.920 Experience that shifts over time. 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:13.359 I'm thinking about how disabled folks are some of the most innovative people that I know because we live in a world not made for our body minds. 00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:24.400 Everything from the electric toothbrush to texting to the potato peeler to the Snuggy was invented by and for disabled folks. 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:25.440 Amazing. 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:35.599 These assistive technologies we now don't even recognize as assistive technologies because they support everyone's thriving. 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:45.359 That's what I mean when I say that disabled folks can teach non-disabled people what it means to be human. 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:50.240 We live in a world not built for us. 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:59.519 And so often disabled folks are innovating, sometimes even on the fly,

solutions to problems that not everyone even recognizes. 00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:12.400 Imagine if we could create a world together where everyone could thrive, where we recognize that we all have access needs and that we're all human. 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.039 And we stop apologizing for that and celebrate that. 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:38.880 Imagine if we could create a community where we didn't have to earn rest, we didn't have to perform our worth, a place where access invitations, ASL interpreters, digit spinners, visual descriptions, captions, and ramps run rampant. 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.359 Don't you want to live in that community? 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:57.200 Well, let's talk about that because I think that, well, let's first of all, you've given some examples already, but for people who don't necessarily know what an access need is, um, again, will you just like spell that out for a minute? 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:07.359 And then I want to talk about um the expansive nature of access needs, how those might apply differently to you and to me, and they're relevant to both of us. 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:09.519 So, but let's start with like what is an access need? 00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.799 What are we talking about? 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:16.400 An access need is anything that someone needs to fully participate in a community. 00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:17.039 Okay. 00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:23.519 It can be related to the built environment in both physical and digital landscapes. 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:28.559 It could be related to language, communication, social media. 00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:38.400 It could be related to lighting, pace, processing, temperature, food, rest, and much more. 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.799 These are all part of the same song, just different verses. 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:45.920 We all have access needs. 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:54.799 It's just that non-disabled folks are often used to having their access needs met without critique or condemnation. 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.559 Yeah, and without a sense of, I mean, I feel like the word inconvenience or that's too much, right? 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.960 Like you had a this is a great line. 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:09.839 We can't expect an old building to be accessible because it was constructed before we considered disabled people a part of the community. 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.680 So you're writing about um kind of a historic building in which the only way to get in is stairs, for example. 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:20.240 Or maybe you can get in through a ramp, but the only way to get to the bathroom is by using stairs. 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:28.880 So, okay, so we can't expect an old, this is something someone might say, we can't expect an old building to be accessible because it was constructed before we considered disabled people a part of the community. 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:30.079 Did I get that right? 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:35.759 Somehow I've never heard the same argument for indoor plumbing, air conditioning, or Wi-Fi. 00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:59.359 In other words, access, if we need indoor plumbing, air conditioning, and Wi-Fi, and we put that in, but we don't think about it as an inconvenience or an access need, and yet a ramp is, then we are, again, as you've said, like demarcating who we see as belonging in this space, which tends to also mean who we want in this space and who we value in this space, right? 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:02.559 Um, so and and then you also, I loved this too. 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:04.640 All of this is by design. 00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:05.920 You're talking about stairs. 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:08.319 Stairs are not naturally occurring. 00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.319 Humans put them there. 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:14.160 There are no stairs on the bike path, on the train tracks, or in the bus lane. 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:23.680 Like, and again, I think for people like me who don't think very much about going up and down stairs, I'm sure there will come a point in my life when I do, but at the moment I don't. 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:28.000 And actually, there have been points in my life where I when I'm carrying babies, right? 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:31.039 That stairs have been a different thing than they are at this moment. 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:33.359 But regardless, I don't think about them that much. 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:39.200 So I have, it has to be pointed out to me that stairs are not naturally occurring, that humans put them there. 00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:41.680 And so we also didn't have to put them there. 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:50.960 And so I just would you talk a little bit more about like how do we undo the ableist assumptions about access, right? 00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:54.640 Like what what do we need to um, I don't know, what do we need to learn? 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:55.839 What do we need to experience? 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:56.720 How do we undo that? 00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:59.279 We all need somewhere to pee, am I right? 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:00.640 And you are right. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:09.680 This idea that that is an access need for some and not others is just silly. 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:16.000 And yet it has very serious consequences and implications for so many of us. 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:28.079 I love this story in scripture where to get to Jesus, five folks dismantle a roof of a house, seemingly without permission. 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:59.920 And I think that is an example for us of if you want to create a community where all can get to Jesus, then start tearing down roofs, literal and metaphorical, start tearing down structures that bar us, that create inaccessible environments that takes a lot of humility, it takes care, takes a commitment to one another over a commitment to what has been. 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:11.839 And I think that it's something that so often as you're sharing, people aren't even cognizant of because

there's this assumption that this is just the way things are. 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:18.400 But what if we could create a new way of proceeding where we all get to co-flourish? 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:21.119 I have two things I want to say in response. 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:28.880 One is just um I've been really spending time with that story about the friends who um make a hole in the roof in order for their friends. 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:32.000 And they come, they're trying to just come and get to Jesus. 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:35.599 It's not as though they come with, like, ooh, let's tear down a roof in mind, right? 00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:38.559 Like they just want to get to Jesus and there are too many people and they can't get in. 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:39.599 And so they do that. 00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:45.279 And I just was for the first time um struck this when I read that recently. 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:53.759 I guess I probably had also recently read that the Americans with Disabilities Act does not apply to church or religious uh communities. 00:28:53.759 --> 00:29:03.440 And so for churches, I mean, of all places to be accessible, it you don't have, I mean, law does not say you have to do it. 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:18.480 So you would only do it by virtue of decisions to, you know, create access and to um be welcoming and um clearly open to people using all sorts of you know ways to get in the door. 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:28.000 Um and yet I just was so struck by the fact, as you said, that Jesus, I mean, he doesn't say a word about the fact that the roof just got pulled off. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:33.759 All he says is, your fate like has done a great deal of good here. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:34.960 God is at work. 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.640 Like he he just essentially praises them for having dismantled the access barrier, right? 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:54.160 And it, I don't know, it just made me think about, again, as you said, like being a little more disruptive in you, you give so many stories of the book of people who are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand that it would be better if we changed the structure, but we're just gonna have to wait on that. 00:29:54.160 --> 00:30:01.279 It's gonna cost too much, it's gonna disrupt too many people, it's not relevant for that many people, you know, all these kind of excuses. 00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:12.079 And it just strikes me that with that story in particular, um, Jesus is implying just the opposite, which is to say, like, yeah, it's worth it for that one guy to get in here. 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:14.960 And for you all to be a part of making that happen. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.759 Um, that is something that is very praiseworthy and that kind of like unleashes some of the power of God. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:27.119 And that everyone's strength, everyone's faith is strengthened by that one disabled person being a part of that community. 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.519 Everyone gets

to experience that. 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:30.079 Right. 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:36.400 It's it's like it's like when you see this as a my gosh, we're we're doing this only for that one person. 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.480 It's like a very warped way of seeing. 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:39.680 And it's like, no, no, no. 00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:44.640 We're doing this for the entire community because that one person now gets to be here. 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.920 And that's not just for that one person, it's for all of us. 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:52.400 Um, and I yeah, I just I appreciate those ways of kind of flipping the script. 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:58.319 I um participate, our family does in a camp um in Alabama called Hope Heels in the summertime. 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:09.359 And we've been going for a couple of years before I realized that the only way to get through the front door of every building is accessible to everyone. 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.839 In other words, there are some stairs. 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:16.559 Um, there are some other ways in, but those are the side doors and the back doors. 00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:22.480 If you're everyone goes in every building on that property through the front door together. 00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:30.079 Um, and I had never noticed, which again means that like the design is not feeling awkward or hard. 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.480 It felt very natural. 00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:37.519 And then I realized that my friends who are using wheelchairs could always just roll right in next to me. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:39.839 There was never a sense of like, oh, I'll meet you there. 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:43.920 I'm gonna go around to the ramp, or I'm gonna figure out the elevator, or I'm gonna, you know. 00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:48.799 Um, and it just was this beautiful experience, again, of like we get to walk in together. 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.839 And um, we can design that way. 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:57.680 And, you know, you might not even notice it uh because it is so intentionally done. 00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:13.440 Yeah, I talk in the book about this example of a church in my neighborhood that has a had a big sign out the front for a while celebrating accessibility and how I have never seen that at a church before. 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:17.200 And it was a big sign that said, celebrate accessibility. 00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.559 We can now welcome everyone through the front door. 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:28.079 And it was celebrating that they had put in a ramp to this pre-ADA building. 00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:42.640 And this idea that we all are welcome through the same door that you're sharing, and that this church was celebrating, is something that is often missed by folks who are used to going in the front door. 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:54.480 And for those of us who so often have to find an entrance around the back by the trash with the rats, it is really meaningful to be welcomed through the front door. 00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:01.200 And it means something other than just the ramp itself, just the infrastructure. 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:07.200 It becomes a maca of belonging and an invitation to fully participate. 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:14.000 Um, you also share some stories of situations that began with a lack of access and with tension within a community. 00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:18.720 I mean, you share some and where it stays that way, but others where it became an opportunity for change. 00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:34.960 And I wondered if you'd share one or two of those stories and just talk about what it takes for a community to become a place of welcome for people with disabilities, because it's not like always just, oh, a light switch goes on and now we have ramps everywhere, or, you know, play that out in other ways. 00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:38.640 Um, but yeah, could you share some of those stories and just talk about what it takes? 00:33:38.960 --> 00:33:54.960 I share those stories in the book that start out with ableism, whether intentional or not, and don't end that way, deliberately to invite folks to replicate that journey in their own contexts. 00:33:54.960 --> 00:34:02.079 So often when we talk about ableism and when people are unlearning ableism, it can feel really overwhelming. 00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:21.119 If this is something that you haven't lived through, experienced yourself, or you are just learning how to understand fully in the world, it can feel like yet another thing that we have to think about or burden that we have to change. 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:26.400 And I recognize the way that that can be really overstimulating and overwhelming to people. 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.280 Yet change is possible. 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:38.239 And I wanted to share some experiences of that, even though change hasn't always been the outcome in everything I've experienced. 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:50.960 One of those experiences is I'm go, I'm going to the movie theater, and there's a disability film playing, and we're all really excited to see it. 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:58.880 And more of us who are using wheelchairs and mobility scooters show up than there are wheelchair accessible seats. 00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:08.239 So there's over 20 of us using wheelchairs and mobility scooters who are there, and the theater can seat six of us. 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.679 And 20 is more than six. 00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:20.320 So it becomes a very cramped, claustrophobic, and unsafe situation very quickly. 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:28.000 And that building is that theater is ADA, and yet that's a floor, not a ceiling. 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:36.719 And instead of brushing that off or dismissing that, well, the theater's ADA, so what did you expect? 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:46.960 I was very grateful and pleasantly surprised when the folks who organized that were actually willing to learn and to change for the future. 00:35:46.960 -->

00:35:58.400 And this led to a series of community discussions and access coordinators and folks to change this for future performances. 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:04.880 In my experience, being willing to adapt is more important than being right. 00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:10.239 Being open to learning is more important than being knowledgeable. 00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:17.039 How we live our lives is more important to me than what we proclaim our doctrine is. 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:24.960 And in so many ways, I have experienced folks not being open to learning. 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.320 So I really want to celebrate when people are. 00:36:28.639 --> 00:36:35.199 Do you feel like it's changed at all over the course of your like adult life, kind of whenever you started paying attention? 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:47.519 Um, do you feel like there's, you know, kind of the same amount of um barriers to access and ableism that you encounter, or um that that has actually shifted at all in our culture? 00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:49.360 That's a great question. 00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:55.119 I think I think there has been change in certain ways and not in others. 00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:55.760 Okay. 00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:12.960 I think that it's still really difficult for people to think of accessibility and creating a culture of access as a mutual responsibility and something that we can all create together. 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:13.599 Mm-hmm. 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:14.320 Yeah. 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:32.400 And I think we get um really stuck on time and money in ways that um certainly from a spiritual, like Christian perspective, are not really sensible in the sense of just believing that we uh follow a God of abundance and provision. 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:43.199 But even from a um, you know, we live in the here in America, we live in like the richest country on earth that's ever been conceived of, you know, and it's like actually we have money. 00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:44.559 Like that we we really do. 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:52.800 And I know that there are lots of areas in which we don't seem to, but that is because of how we are um choosing to deploy it, not because it doesn't exist. 00:37:53.119 --> 00:38:05.519 Budgets are moral documents, you know, and they and they reveal what we value, what we consider part of our our values, mission, and practices. 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:14.719 And folks in our communities are often excluded because we haven't created a culture of access. 00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:15.440 Yeah. 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:21.599 Well, I wanted to um end with another quotation from the book and ask you to close out our time just with some comments about it. 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:26.719 You write, disability is a creative force that invites us to reimagine the world as we know it. 00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:34.079 And I wanted to ask just how um disability has been a creative force inviting you to reimagine the world as we know it. 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.320 Like, what do you what do you reimagine? 00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:45.440 What do you see as possible or what have you seen become possible with that act of reimagining um this world? 00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:55.920 We've spoken a little about how resources, money and time can often be deterrents for folks to create a culture of access. 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:02.239 And in my sanctified imagination, I think of time as a construct. 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:06.639 We we know that love is older than time. 00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:14.880 We know that humans didn't always evaluate or schedule their lives by the clock. 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:31.679 And so often our calendars become a type of idol to us because we're scheduling our lives in 30 or 45-minute increments, and we're on this hamster wheel of hustle culture. 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:45.119 I'd love to imagine a world where we have more freedom to rest, create, dream. 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:53.679 There's something that connects us in those activities and reminds us of our shared humanity despite our differences. 00:39:53.679 --> 00:40:11.199 And I'd love to imagine a world where we're not having to explain or earn needing to rest, and where we recognize that we move, think, and communicate in a variety of ways. 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:22.079 So I'd love for us to really rethink this idea of how we treat time and recognize that time is a construct. 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:26.559 I'm gonna hold on to that comment you made that love is older than time. 00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:33.760 Um there's something more deeply true, um, something that I think calls to us and calls to our humanity. 00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:48.880 Um, and yet I think it's probably true that the faster we move, um the more uh likely we are to ignore or deny that reality, that love is older than time. 00:40:48.880 --> 00:40:49.760 I love that. 00:40:49.760 --> 00:41:00.000 Um thank you so much for so much wisdom, including that as a as a kind of capstone to this conversation and to all that you um are bringing into the world through the work that you do. 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.480 Thanks for spending time with me today. 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:04.239 My pleasure. 00:41:04.239 --> 00:41:12.880 Thanks as always for listening to this episode of Reimagining the Good Life. 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.159 If you're enjoying the show, please follow, rate, review it. 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:24.239 I would love for other people to also find these conversations so you can share it with a friend, send questions or ideas to me anytime. 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:25.440 Um, just be in touch. 00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:26.400 I love hearing from you. 00:41:26.400 --> 00:41:30.079 There's a send us a text link at the end of the show notes. 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:37.599 Thanks always to Jake Hansen for editing this episode and to Amber Beery, my director of content, for producing the show. 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.519 And thank you for being here. 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:43.440 Let's all keep reimagining the good life together.