สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
WEBVTT
00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:10.506
So last week I promised you a podcast episode about MTSS for math, outlining the system of MTSS specifically for math.
00:00:10.506 --> 00:00:32.652
Well, when I was looking through and doing my research for the podcast episode and for the podcast episode that I had planned for next week, which is for writing, I realized the fact is math and writing are very similar, not subject areas, but in the way that they are treated in MTSS, in that they're basically not there.
00:00:32.652 --> 00:00:44.968
Honestly, when we look at the data and the information that's available, the vast majority of the students that enter MTSS the focus is on reading.
00:00:44.968 --> 00:00:54.664
When I was planning the podcast episode for math and then for writing, I realized I wanted to honor your time and my time a little bit more with this.
00:00:54.664 --> 00:01:01.061
Understand the reality that my teachers and my administrators out there are facing.
00:01:01.061 --> 00:01:12.451
While I disagree that with the way that we're doing MTSS, I think that we should be focusing a whole lot more on math and certainly way more on writing.
00:01:12.451 --> 00:01:13.962
That's not the reality right now.
00:01:13.962 --> 00:01:16.953
Teachers and administrators are beat down.
00:01:16.953 --> 00:01:19.060
They're tired, you're exhausted.
00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:34.382
You're just trying to do the best you can with what you've got, while I want to go over the information for how MTSS works for math and then for writing when you're probably not going to see it within your school system.
00:01:34.382 --> 00:01:37.152
Maybe you see it in your school, maybe once or twice.
00:01:37.152 --> 00:01:49.814
Well, I want you to have the information so that if you have that student that comes up, writing or math is a really big focus for the child and you have that opportunity to show how it should be done.
00:01:49.814 --> 00:01:51.504
I want you to have that opportunity.
00:01:51.504 --> 00:01:53.370
I want you to have the resources available.
00:01:53.370 --> 00:01:56.799
So I'm going to combine the two podcast episodes.
00:01:56.799 --> 00:02:05.034
So we're going to talk today about MTSS for math and we're going to talk about MTSS for writing Hopefully that will be very helpful to you and we're going to talk about MTSS for writing.
00:02:05.034 --> 00:02:06.099
Hopefully that will be very helpful to you.
00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:14.818
And then next week we're going to take off so that you have some break and I have some break and we're going to enjoy a little bit of summer.
00:02:18.501 --> 00:02:22.050
Hi, I'm Jessica Curtis of Teaching Struggling Learners.
00:02:22.050 --> 00:02:24.688
I'm a boy mom and a veteran teacher.
00:02:24.688 --> 00:02:27.782
You're listening to the Reaching Struggling Learners.
00:02:27.782 --> 00:02:28.525
I'm a boy mom and a veteran teacher.
00:02:28.525 --> 00:02:34.824
You're listening to the Reaching Struggling Learners podcast, where we talk all about helping students succeed academically, socially and behaviorally.
00:02:34.824 --> 00:02:53.301
Thank you so much for tuning in If you've listened to the last couple podcast episodes.
00:02:53.322 --> 00:03:01.484
You know the basic system of MTSS, which, for writing and for math, we know that tier one is whatever the main curriculum is for both of those.
00:03:01.484 --> 00:03:07.122
For math, there's a lot of different curriculums out there from different publishing companies.
00:03:07.122 --> 00:03:08.665
Some are better than others.
00:03:08.665 --> 00:03:18.162
It depends on what the needs of the students are and, quite frankly, what the contracts were that were paid for by the school districts or the state that you're in.
00:03:18.162 --> 00:03:20.787
But that's the main, the main curriculum.
00:03:20.787 --> 00:03:29.081
For writing, there are very few main curriculum For writing.
00:03:29.081 --> 00:03:31.225
There are very few overall curriculums that are out there that are just focused on writing.
00:03:31.225 --> 00:03:32.649
There's a couple out there, there's very few.
00:03:32.649 --> 00:03:40.706
The vast majority of the writing curriculum is embedded within the overall ELA curriculum.
00:03:41.168 --> 00:03:54.372
Unfortunately, from what we are seeing from the data the state scores, the pre-med post scores and all that writing has very much taken a back seat, and with good reason.
00:03:54.372 --> 00:04:00.950
Let's be honest only 35-40% of our students are able to read on grade level.
00:04:00.950 --> 00:04:02.633
That's going to be the focus.
00:04:02.633 --> 00:04:06.310
You have to be able to read to be able to write.
00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:07.762
That's just how it is.
00:04:07.762 --> 00:04:12.611
Reading levels are always higher than writing levels.
00:04:12.611 --> 00:04:14.381
That's just how it works.
00:04:14.381 --> 00:04:16.607
You have to be able to read, to be able to write.
00:04:16.607 --> 00:04:22.545
You have to know how words go together, how they form, to be able to write them and to share your thoughts on paper.
00:04:22.545 --> 00:04:34.954
It does make sense for teachers who are looking at a classroom of 20 kids and a teen of those kids are struggling with reading the grade level text.
00:04:34.954 --> 00:04:41.100
Yeah, I understand that just being able to read and comprehend that text is going to take priority.
00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:47.011
Writing has unfortunately taken a big backseat to reading.
00:04:47.271 --> 00:04:59.523
We know that there is a very big issue at the high school where students are unable to perform very basic writing skills like writing a complete sentence.
00:04:59.523 --> 00:05:07.934
We know that the tier one writing program is not serving our students For math.
00:05:07.934 --> 00:05:16.733
We'll look again at the algebra teachers, since before COVID, our algebra teachers are getting students who don't.
00:05:16.733 --> 00:05:26.461
Load full transcript
They cannot perform the basic operations for algebra because they don't understand the basic algebra, because they don't understand the basic skills, they don't have fact fluency.
00:05:26.461 --> 00:05:35.603
So again, I would argue that the Tier 1 programs that we have been using have not been adequate for the majority of our students.
00:05:35.603 --> 00:05:50.091
Tier 1 is whatever all of the students are getting or Not getting, unless 80% or more of our students are able to perform the skills, I would argue that the tier one curriculum is not appropriate.
00:05:50.091 --> 00:05:53.476
It's not doing what the students need it to do.
00:05:53.476 --> 00:06:07.949
Mtss is the perfect means of collecting the data and arguing for better curriculum, or curriculum at all, for that tier one level, and I'd like to give you the opportunity to have your voice heard.
00:06:07.949 --> 00:06:18.127
If the tier one curriculum isn't doing what it should meaning the students aren't gaining the skills that they should for math or for writing then we should move them to tier two.
00:06:18.367 --> 00:06:23.824
Again, just like with reading, use some screeners for that At different levels.
00:06:23.824 --> 00:06:32.196
You can screen for well, we all have the pre-mid post for math, the star scores and all that stuff, the map scores, all that.
00:06:32.196 --> 00:06:37.348
Most states and counties require some sort of pre-mid post.
00:06:37.348 --> 00:06:43.968
You can use those to determine that, hey, below this cutoff point, these students really do, they're struggling.
00:06:43.968 --> 00:06:51.601
If we identify a student that's struggling, we need to look at and see what is the skill area that they're struggling in.
00:06:51.601 --> 00:07:04.672
This is much easier in math because we have those MAP scores, the STAR scores, the whatever it is that you're using in your county or your state for those assessments.
00:07:05.012 --> 00:07:15.730
For writing, until you really get into the testing quote-unquote testing grades, there usually isn't a writing test and that's not till the very end of the year For writing.
00:07:15.730 --> 00:07:20.865
Every grade level should be doing a beginning of the year writing assessment.
00:07:20.865 --> 00:08:04.372
Now, I'm not a big advocate for adding assessments, but if we have third graders who are asked to write about something that happened in their life, your favorite thing in the world, whatever it is and we find that those that are third graders are not able to write complete sentences, they cannot spell certain words that are grade level appropriate, that they can't use capitalization or punctuation, then that's your screener right there, and we know these are some things that we need to work on for those students and that would be a tier two intervention working on capitalization and punctuation, sentence structure, making sure that we can spell grade appropriate words in the sentences.
00:08:04.372 --> 00:08:07.538
We can spell grade appropriate words appropriate in the sentences, those kinds of things.
00:08:07.538 --> 00:08:23.944
That would be your tier two Using the screeners, just like we would for math or for reading, use the screeners to identify what are the skill area deficits and focus on those, giving them the you know, the smaller group instruction for writing.
00:08:24.045 --> 00:08:28.709
It might be the whole classroom, but hey, at least we know what we need to work on.
00:08:28.709 --> 00:08:37.837
Then, if the students are not making the progress that we would expect to get them onto grade level, filling in those skill gaps.
00:08:37.837 --> 00:08:48.508
We would then want to move them on to tier three, which is that would be for students who are working well below grade level, probably working two years below grade level.
00:08:48.508 --> 00:08:53.686
Those students would need individualized, or more individualized support.
00:08:53.686 --> 00:08:55.870
They need more reteaching.
00:08:55.870 --> 00:09:00.258
They need more practice to solidify those skills.
00:09:00.558 --> 00:09:09.986
I know that there has been a lot of pushback in the teaching community that students don't need as much practice to show that they know something.
00:09:09.986 --> 00:09:25.298
Unfortunately, what we are finding is that, okay, if students show five times that they did this one problem correctly on the test or whatever, that doesn't necessarily mean that they understood it and they really absorbed it.
00:09:25.298 --> 00:09:30.254
If you give them those same problems two months later, they may or may not get it right.
00:09:30.254 --> 00:09:48.626
We have to start ensuring that students are getting enough practice and that they are remembering how to do the previous skills, because there's a lot to learn and we have to ensure that the students are getting enough practice, especially when it comes down to it.
00:09:48.626 --> 00:09:59.965
They have to be getting that fluency that it's easy that it is second nature for them to know the addition problems, the subtraction problems, the multiplication and division when it's appropriate.
00:09:59.965 --> 00:10:17.152
Tier three, a lot of times is going to be a lot of extra practice and making sure that the students, not that they just understand the process, but they have really, truly absorbed it and they're able to do it in a bunch of different situations.
00:10:17.373 --> 00:10:34.206
For tier three, for writing, that would be again reteaching very basic skills, probably going to focus a lot on spelling with that, because that seems to be a big area of struggle for a lot of students, preventing them from getting their thoughts on paper.
00:10:34.206 --> 00:10:58.445
Most students absorb very quickly the capitals at the beginnings and punctuation, those kinds of things, but they will change and simplify their writing drastically, shorten their writing drastically, not because they don't have the wonderful ideas
in their head but because they lack the spelling skills to be able to really convey their thought.
00:10:58.445 --> 00:11:11.374
They can have students with a fantastic vocabulary are writing very, very simplistic sentences, if they're writing sentences at all, simply because they don't have the spelling skills.
00:11:11.374 --> 00:11:16.717
So a lot of the times, some when you're working with tier three, with writing, be prepared.
00:11:16.717 --> 00:11:19.648
You may have to work on spelling quite a bit and that's.
00:11:19.648 --> 00:11:23.116
I realized that's a that's more of a phonics thing, but it's.
00:11:23.116 --> 00:11:24.833
It's an important phonics thing.
00:11:24.833 --> 00:11:30.613
It's a gateway for our students to be able to convey their thoughts appropriately.
00:11:30.832 --> 00:11:32.275
Now for interventions.
00:11:32.275 --> 00:11:34.467
We've talked about this a lot.
00:11:34.467 --> 00:11:36.697
There aren't a whole lot of interventions out there.
00:11:36.697 --> 00:11:53.852
There aren't a whole lot of intervention programs out there for reading or for math and for writing, which, for reading, I honestly see the number of interventions as a stumbling block because districts, schools, get so stuck on.
00:11:53.852 --> 00:11:58.667
We're using this program at this grade level and whether it's appropriate or not.
00:11:58.868 --> 00:12:25.596
The benefits to not having a whole lot of extra programs out there for writing and for math is that we as teachers get to use our own good logic and understanding of our students to be able to focus and say my student doesn't need to spend 30 minutes doing this, five minutes doing this, five minutes doing that, five minutes doing this.
00:12:25.596 --> 00:12:33.715
Instead, we can spend our 20-30 minutes just working on what we feel is the correct skill.
00:12:33.715 --> 00:12:46.251
So, for example, if you have a student who is struggling with addition or subtraction fluency, you can do your very quick timed test to see how are you doing today?
00:12:46.251 --> 00:12:48.826
Okay, here's some really quick practice.
00:12:48.826 --> 00:12:54.562
Here's a quick game to do that is focused just on this skill.
00:12:54.562 --> 00:12:57.109
All right, let's do another drill and see how you improve.
00:12:57.109 --> 00:13:01.265
Even over a course of 20-30 minutes, you may see quite a bit of improvement.
00:13:01.265 --> 00:13:02.769
Same thing with writing.
00:13:03.149 --> 00:13:12.836
Because we don't have a whole lot of writing intervention programs that are so scripted and the higher ups are just in love with this one program.
00:13:12.836 --> 00:13:15.107
We can go and say, hey, you know what, guys?
00:13:15.107 --> 00:13:20.773
I've noticed that we are doing a really good job with getting our capitals and our end punctuation.
00:13:20.773 --> 00:13:22.379
But you know what we need to do?
00:13:22.379 --> 00:13:23.001
We need to.
00:13:23.001 --> 00:13:30.515
Today we're going to focus on common versus proper nouns and making sure that those proper nouns have a capital at the beginning.
00:13:30.515 --> 00:13:51.283
So we can spend 20-30 minutes just working on those very minute skills so that when the students move on, they've actually really acquired a new skill or they've had some really good practice and made some really good gains towards meeting that goal that we had for them.
00:13:51.644 --> 00:14:00.274
While I know that it could be daunting, for example, if you were going to be the writing intervention teacher, oh my goodness, I would love that.
00:14:00.274 --> 00:14:02.086
That would honestly be like a dream job for me.
00:14:02.086 --> 00:14:08.409
But let's say you're going in to be a writing intervention teacher and, no, we don't have a program for you to use.
00:14:08.409 --> 00:14:09.712
There is nothing scripted.
00:14:09.712 --> 00:14:16.327
That's daunting, but at the same time, it is so freeing because you're not scripted.
00:14:16.327 --> 00:14:32.701
You can do for your students what you see as their next step, which is beautiful, and I honestly feel that teachers should have the respect that we can look at them and say, hey, here's a bunch of resources.
00:14:32.701 --> 00:14:41.370
We want you to pick what you feel is right for your student to make to meet the goal that we've set for them.
00:14:41.370 --> 00:14:43.576
I think that that's the respect that teachers deserve.
00:14:43.576 --> 00:14:52.249
Obviously, we want to provide all the interventions that we say that we're going to do, just like we would for reading, and then we have to progress monitor.
00:14:52.529 --> 00:15:03.993
For math and writing, progress monitoring is even more important because these areas, these subject areas, just aren't used in MTSS.
00:15:03.993 --> 00:15:06.116
They're not addressed nearly as often.
00:15:06.116 --> 00:15:18.226
It's important to show, when we are addressing math and writing in our data chats and all that, that we're actually making progress and that what we're doing is working.
00:15:18.226 --> 00:15:31.119
That's how we, as teachers or as an administrator, we can advocate and say we need to dedicate more time to math interventions or writing interventions.
00:15:31.119 --> 00:15:48.716
We need to dedicate more money, more resources to providing better resources for both of these areas that we need to have a tier one curriculum for writing or we need to spend less time on something else so that we can focus some more on this.
00:15:48.716 --> 00:15:52.054
It's all about advocating for our students.
00:15:52.054 --> 00:15:59.164
Using that progress monitoring data to advocate for our students helps us actually get with it.
00:15:59.164 --> 00:16:00.408
Of course we're gonna.
00:16:00.408 --> 00:16:01.390
We should have meetings.
00:16:01.390 --> 00:16:07.230
We should have meetings for math and writing just as often as we do for reading.
00:16:07.552 --> 00:16:15.533
It's really important
probably more important if you're adding in math or writing for MTSS that you have an agenda.
00:16:15.533 --> 00:16:20.706
We know that the focus for MTSS by and large is reading.
00:16:20.706 --> 00:16:40.828
So if you're talking about math or writing for a student, it is really important to have that agenda up there with your subject in it, because otherwise it's really very likely that the other subject areas will get kind of pushed to the side so that we can talk about reading.
00:16:40.828 --> 00:17:03.490
So again, an agenda is even more important and following the system, the steps of MTSS for math and writing, is very, very important so that the students get what they need in these other, less focused upon subject areas, just like we do with our reading.
00:17:03.490 --> 00:17:20.028
I strongly suggest that we have a list of red flags for tier two, moving into tier three, tier three, into asking for testing or going back down, you know, from tier three to tier two and so on.
00:17:20.028 --> 00:17:29.693
There should be some red flags that indicate, hey, we need to have a very serious, frank conversation about this student and what they need.
00:17:29.693 --> 00:17:41.653
For example, if a student has been struggling with math for a long time, then we need to talk about bumping them up to the next level or maybe talk about testing.
00:17:41.974 --> 00:17:50.355
The vast majority of students who qualify for specific learning disabilities nationwide qualify under reading.
00:17:50.355 --> 00:17:54.907
That's because MTSS the focus is on MTSS.
00:17:54.907 --> 00:18:08.758
In my opinion, if we had as much of a focus on math as we do on reading, we would have an equally large number for students who would qualify under our current system for math.
00:18:08.758 --> 00:18:22.051
There are a lot of students who are out there who we say we give them the excuse oh, they're just bad in math because they never had the opportunity to get the help that they needed.
00:18:22.051 --> 00:18:35.474
If we were to treat both subjects the same, we would realize that, hey, there's a lot of kids out there that they actually could do better in math if they received the supports.
00:18:35.856 --> 00:18:56.740
Unfortunately, the data doesn't exist right now for writing, and I wish it did, but we have no idea right now how many students would need extra help or maybe even need specialized instruction for writing, because it's just not covered in MTSS.
00:18:56.740 --> 00:19:17.806
There's a lot of kids out there who have fantastic ideas and thoughts, stories that could be shared with the world, knowledge that could be shared with the world, but they have not taught the skills that they need to be able to share their ideas, and that's very, very sad, but it's something that we need to address.
00:19:17.806 --> 00:19:39.675
Obviously, it's probably not going to be in the coming school year, but over time, I would love to see a much bigger focus in supporting all of our students, not just supporting the ones that are struggling with reading, but the ones that are struggling with math and with writing, with communicating through the written word.
00:19:39.675 --> 00:19:52.009
I would love to see us care about all of our students, not that we don't care about them, but really focus on all of the needs of our students, not just the ones that struggle with reading.
00:19:52.009 --> 00:19:58.838
That, in a nutshell, is MTSS for math and writing, just like with reading.
00:19:59.019 --> 00:20:09.008
It mirrors the overall MTSS process and it's a process that we could be using to support a whole lot more students than we are right now.
00:20:09.008 --> 00:20:18.666
We are going to get more in depth in how we can support more of our students and be a little bit more focused in what we're doing, but not next week.
00:20:18.666 --> 00:20:32.132
Next week we're going to take off, and the week after we are going to talk about something that, no matter what your subject area, it's something that all of us need to deal with or unfortunately have to deal with, and that is behavior.
00:20:32.132 --> 00:20:52.416
We know that behaviors have been increasing, not in a good way, over the past few years, and so we will talk about MTSS for behavior in our next episode, but until then, may your coffee be strong, your students calm and your summer absolutely amazing.
00:20:52.416 --> 00:20:53.218
Bye.