บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ John Nunemaker on AI Development

a bold statement. 00:01:58.626 --> 00:02:03.757 Why do you maybe share some of your, uh, your, your viewpoint on that? 00:02:04.762 --> 00:02:07.341 Yeah, that's just what Claude told me to say, so, no, I'm just kidding. 00:02:11.092 --> 00:02:26.481 Uh, yeah, so I mean, I think where that came from, it was just one of those things that like popped in my head and I've been trying to just do a better job of like, something like I, I read things online and I'm like, oh, what a well-formed, like, smart opinion that that person had and Oh, but like most of the time it's like. 00:02:26.722 --> 00:02:27.562 Yeah, I agree with that. 00:02:27.562 --> 00:02:29.092 Like, why didn't I say that out loud? 00:02:29.241 --> 00:02:31.012 Like, why did they have to be the first one? 00:02:31.012 --> 00:02:35.931 And so like, it just popped in my head that day because I was like, I've been using Claude for like a long time. 00:02:35.931 --> 00:02:41.451 I'd been using sonnet and then like, I remember December 14th, it'll be an infamy for me. 00:02:41.451 --> 00:02:42.622 And I was like, I screw it. 00:02:42.622 --> 00:02:45.711 I'm just upgrading to Opus all the time. 00:02:45.711 --> 00:02:48.741 I'm not gonna use, you know, the lower models anymore. 00:02:49.102 --> 00:02:51.502 And as soon as I did it, I was like, this is the future. 00:02:51.562 --> 00:02:54.171 Like it was just like, I mean, within a day or two I was like. 00:02:54.951 --> 00:03:03.201 I have not, you know, generated this amount of good stuff in that amount of time period, you know, since like Rails. 00:03:03.292 --> 00:03:11.122 Um, and so I was like, okay, this is, this is definitely the way, and just, I started showing people on the, on the team. 00:03:12.217 --> 00:03:16.176 And you know, very quickly they started seeing the same thing. 00:03:16.567 --> 00:03:24.667 And that's when it was just like, you know, I don't know if I was in the shower or driving or what, but it just popped in my head and I was like, I just gotta get this out, you know? 00:03:25.417 --> 00:03:25.926 I did. 00:03:25.926 --> 00:03:30.426 And then, you know, you always get like the trolls, they're like, they're like, well, codex is better. 00:03:30.426 --> 00:03:30.697 And I'm like. 00:03:31.097 --> 00:03:40.877 I that yes, I, but like, if I just say it doesn't matter, which is better or which is worse, what I'm saying is like, your job right now is to figure out there's a new thing in town. 00:03:41.296 --> 00:03:53.026 It's to figure it out and then, and be on the forefront and understand when and where and all that kind of stuff to use it and then get everybody on your team to use it and go from there. 00:03:53.026 --> 00:03:55.576 And, and so we've been doing that at Box Out and it's. 00:03:56.856 --> 00:03:57.997 Like absolutely unreal. 00:03:58.086 --> 00:04:00.727 Uh, I mean, and obviously I'm very good with all the other stuff too. 00:04:01.056 --> 00:04:05.736 Um, but box outs were like the largest team that I'm, uh, you know, taking that approach with. 00:04:06.097 --> 00:04:07.836 And so yeah, it's been, it's been incredible. 00:04:07.866 --> 00:04:08.076 So. 00:04:09.532 --> 00:04:09.681 All right. 00:04:09.681 --> 00:04:14.211 So tell us a little bit about your, uh, company, AI in a Box. 00:04:14.211 --> 00:04:19.822 'cause it sort of feels like the, you know, that concept, uh, overlaps with this. 00:04:19.826 --> 00:04:22.612 I, I don't know if you call it a project or approach or however. 00:04:22.701 --> 00:04:23.601 You view it, right? 00:04:23.601 --> 00:04:26.151 But you know, what is it to you? 00:04:26.182 --> 00:04:27.502 What's the stack look like? 00:04:27.502 --> 00:04:28.341 How does it work? 00:04:28.341 --> 00:04:31.041 Like, you know, share what you're willing to share. 00:04:31.072 --> 00:04:33.291 'cause I think a lot of people are asking the same question. 00:04:34.266 --> 00:04:34.987 I'll share anything. 00:04:34.987 --> 00:04:46.896 So, I mean, the biggest thing for me was like the, the, I mean, I think the, the biggest leap for us as a team, number one was, you know, Claude Max, like everybody got the, the a hundred dollars basically immediately after Christmas break. 00:04:46.896 --> 00:04:50.586 'cause all Christmas break I went crazy and I was like, this is amazing. 00:04:50.586 --> 00:04:51.096 This is the future. 00:04:51.096 --> 00:04:52.896 And so right when we came back I was like, everybody use it. 00:04:52.896 --> 00:04:54.276 I'm gonna get into the brain stuff too. 00:04:54.456 --> 00:04:55.326 And then, 00:04:55.521 --> 00:04:56.091 So hold on. 00:04:56.182 --> 00:04:58.132 So Claude Max is the hundred version one, right? 00:04:58.132 --> 00:05:04.762 And before that I, I, I upgraded to that about the same time it sounds like, you know, somewhere in that area. 00:05:05.451 --> 00:05:10.567 And before that I was like hitting the limit, like every, what, you know, 20 minutes it felt like, and I was so 00:05:10.632 --> 00:05:10.882 yeah. 00:05:12.007 --> 00:05:14.916 That, you know, the a hundred dollars subscription wasn't gonna be enough. 00:05:15.877 --> 00:05:16.357 Right. 00:05:16.357 --> 00:05:18.786 And I have not hit the limit again since then. 00:05:18.786 --> 00:05:20.916 So, like anyone else listening, like, just do it. 00:05:20.922 --> 00:05:22.747 You, you can still get pretty far. 00:05:22.747 --> 00:05:26.947 And if you're a super user and you have to go to the, you know, the 200 plan, so be it. 00:05:26.947 --> 00:05:31.956 But like, don't fret for anyone else that's thinking the same thing that I was, I just wanted to throw that out there. 00:05:32.586 --> 00:05:33.607 No, I totally agree. 00:05:33.607 --> 00:05:36.726 And I've actually like Wagered with a ton of people. 00:05:36.726 --> 00:05:40.687 I was like, look, get the a hundred dollars plan, get the $200 plan, use it. 00:05:40.747 --> 00:05:47.257 And if at the end of the month, uh, you don't feel like it was worth it, then I will pay

for it and you can just not use it ever again. 00:05:47.286 --> 00:05:49.057 And no one's taken me up on that to date. 00:05:49.057 --> 00:05:49.447 So 00:05:49.567 --> 00:05:49.956 You are right. 00:05:49.987 --> 00:05:50.497 it's a hundred. 00:05:50.497 --> 00:05:52.266 It's a absolutely amazing, like even. 00:05:52.326 --> 00:05:54.666 People who didn't wanna spend the money, they're like, this is crazy. 00:05:54.692 --> 00:05:56.076 I, I should have did this a long time ago. 00:05:56.286 --> 00:06:00.997 So I got the $200, I went straight to the, the biggest one because that was all about the deal, you know? 00:06:01.326 --> 00:06:01.627 Yeah. 00:06:01.716 --> 00:06:03.666 well, it's four times for two times the price. 00:06:03.666 --> 00:06:04.567 Why would I not do that? 00:06:04.807 --> 00:06:07.956 But I, everybody that, you know, that's like working, uh, with me. 00:06:07.956 --> 00:06:15.966 I, I've just had 'em start with a hundred and I've just said like, your goal is now to try and max this out enough that it's annoying that you need the 200 and then switch to the 200 immediately. 00:06:15.966 --> 00:06:16.387 I don't care. 00:06:16.387 --> 00:06:21.906 Like, and then I've told everybody the same thing, uh, as well, like when you're at home. 00:06:22.656 --> 00:06:27.877 Like outside of work hours, if you would like to use your work Claude account to do personal things, knock yourself out. 00:06:27.877 --> 00:06:33.067 I don't care because, and I'm not trying to encourage people to like work like crazy or anything like that, but like, it's fun. 00:06:33.127 --> 00:06:34.387 I think we should all understand it. 00:06:34.387 --> 00:06:35.646 I think we should like, play with it. 00:06:35.646 --> 00:06:44.076 And I know if they do with it, I'm not, I'm not gonna force somebody, I'm not gonna say like, if you're not doing this on Saturday and Sunday, you're, you know that, that's definitely not what's happening. 00:06:44.076 --> 00:06:45.877 But if you mess around with it. 00:06:46.367 --> 00:06:51.107 And you figure something out on the weekend, that's always gonna come back and benefit work as well. 00:06:51.406 --> 00:06:54.706 So I've told everybody, I'm like, use it up, like the, the limits. 00:06:54.706 --> 00:06:56.117 They're, they're there either way. 00:06:56.177 --> 00:06:58.427 So, you know, uh, go to town. 00:06:58.427 --> 00:06:59.836 So that's, that's the first thing. 00:07:00.156 --> 00:07:05.317 The, the amount of code I get done now when I'm putting my kids to bed is, is sort of ridiculous, right? 00:07:05.317 --> 00:07:07.747 Like I can build like an entire feature in the hour. 00:07:07.747 --> 00:07:10.581 I'm sitting in my, my son's room, you know? 00:07:10.726 --> 00:07:12.076 to entry is so low. 00:07:12.997 --> 00:07:13.747 It's unreal. 00:07:13.776 --> 00:07:23.076 It like you can just, uh, say things and like, before it would be like, like I have to wait 'cause I, I've only got, you know, 45 minutes until I gotta do something. 00:07:23.317 --> 00:07:24.697 So I don't have time to get anything going. 00:07:24.697 --> 00:07:27.607 So I'll just do something else, you know, like check my email or whatever. 00:07:27.997 --> 00:07:35.947 And now it's like, I mean, my inbox is just growing 'cause I'm like, no, if I, if I have to stop and do something by hand, that feels so. 00:07:36.406 --> 00:07:37.726 Brutal and painful. 00:07:38.026 --> 00:07:41.536 You know, like anything that I can't just like automate like that. 00:07:41.536 --> 00:07:48.047 So, um, but that's kind of what has led to the, the brain idea, which was basically I was like, you know, there's just so many things that like. 00:07:48.547 --> 00:07:52.867 I keep seeing open claw, bot, claw bot, you know, all that stuff. 00:07:53.286 --> 00:07:54.516 And I'm like, this is cool. 00:07:54.516 --> 00:08:02.016 But I'm like, I don't wanna just give away all my credit cards and stuff like that to ai. 00:08:02.137 --> 00:08:02.887 I'm not there. 00:08:03.007 --> 00:08:09.067 So other people, they can go to town, they can it, you know, burn their billion tokens and do all this crazy stuff. 00:08:09.067 --> 00:08:12.697 Like I'm okay with them doing that, but I'm like, I just, that's. 00:08:13.192 --> 00:08:17.451 Giving over your entire life and letting your AI like do all this stuff just seemed like a little too far. 00:08:17.451 --> 00:08:19.851 So I was like, well, what are some isolated ways I can do this? 00:08:20.661 --> 00:08:22.521 at the company level where it's valuable. 00:08:22.791 --> 00:08:29.271 So that's where it started and I was like, well, you know, the first thing I could think was like, what if I could just make it easier for people? 00:08:30.201 --> 00:08:32.841 You know, we run Mease, which is like a reporting thing. 00:08:32.841 --> 00:08:36.022 And so like, but what that means is, hey, I need some data. 00:08:36.022 --> 00:08:40.402 So they come to John, and John creates the report and then they have the data going forward. 00:08:40.402 --> 00:08:49.341 So they don't have to ask John every time, but I still am involved every single time and I'm like, how, how I want to get to more situations where I'm not involved. 00:08:49.461 --> 00:08:52.822 Like that's, that's where this is kind of all, you know, coming from. 00:08:52.822 --> 00:08:54.981 So I was like, how can I make it so that like. 00:08:55.626 --> 00:09:03.187 know, somebody on sales, somebody in marketing or growth, whatever, can just be like, you know, how many of this happened in the last week? 00:09:03.486 --> 00:09:03.876 You know? 00:09:03.966 --> 00:09:07.506 And I was like, well, Postgres, MCP, maybe that would get us close. 00:09:07.567 --> 00:09:16.177 So it was just like, how do I somewhere run a pre-configured Postgres MCP with a read-only replica so nobody can do any damage. 00:09:17.032 --> 00:09:25.011 has any passwords and anything that, again, damage related, that there's, there's no way really that

any problems can kind of come from this. 00:09:25.432 --> 00:09:26.542 It's like, what's the easiest way to do that? 00:09:26.542 --> 00:09:39.322 So I did a lot of spelunking, you know, with, um, my best friend Claude, and we were like, at the end, you know, Lieber chat was one of the, the options that was, it's basically like ChatGPT or Claude's web interface. 00:09:40.596 --> 00:09:43.567 But it's open source and you can just, you know, it's a docker image. 00:09:43.567 --> 00:09:45.636 You can just pull it, run it, and do whatever you want. 00:09:46.057 --> 00:09:48.517 And so I was like, okay, well that looks pretty interesting. 00:09:48.846 --> 00:09:51.157 So now I'm at the point where like I just need to be able to like. 00:09:51.937 --> 00:09:52.447 Test it. 00:09:52.447 --> 00:09:56.496 And so that's why I was like, well, I'll just spin up a server and then I'll like run some stuff on it. 00:09:56.496 --> 00:10:03.606 So my first thought was like, I'm just gonna like rent, you know, whatever, a hener box that's 16 gigs of ram, something that's big enough to like do some things. 00:10:04.866 --> 00:10:06.246 which is only like 30 bucks a month. 00:10:06.246 --> 00:10:06.846 It's super cheap. 00:10:06.937 --> 00:10:11.557 And so, and then I was like, well, I'll just, I'll just install Claude and I'll let it rip. 00:10:11.677 --> 00:10:15.427 You know, I'll sign in, you know, do my stuff and I'll just have c Claude set up the whole server. 00:10:15.427 --> 00:10:16.417 But then I was like, well. 00:10:16.851 --> 00:10:18.412 But it's not repeatable at all. 00:10:18.412 --> 00:10:24.261 So then I kinda thought, well, maybe I should do it locally on my machine and do it in a, you know, like a repeatable way. 00:10:24.261 --> 00:10:26.751 So that's when I kind of to toyed with Ansible. 00:10:26.756 --> 00:10:36.111 'cause I had toyed with it before and it's, it's kind of for like a Ruby guy, it's like Capistrano for servers, you know, like you tell it to run some things and it'll just do it. 00:10:36.201 --> 00:10:40.072 And you can do the pull model, like puppet and stuff I think too. 00:10:40.072 --> 00:10:43.611 But for the most part it's just like, you run, I run a command and I can do things. 00:10:44.422 --> 00:10:45.292 I was like, okay, cool. 00:10:45.292 --> 00:10:45.861 So I was like. 00:10:46.267 --> 00:10:54.397 Uh, make a Ansible playbook to install Claude, like, it did it, and I was like, like run it against this server and it, and it did it. 00:10:54.397 --> 00:11:01.417 And I was like, okay, like lock down SSH and like, so it locked down SSH and it like threw in a couple things that I wasn't even thinking about, you know? 00:11:01.777 --> 00:11:05.856 And then I was like, uh, and I, I don't even remember all the things, but I was like, well, now I want like. 00:11:06.831 --> 00:11:15.532 code just 'cause I thought, well, if I have open code, I can run some random junk on there and maybe that can be my, like, you know, runs things when I'm away from my computer situation. 00:11:16.192 --> 00:11:16.522 So what? 00:11:16.611 --> 00:11:17.361 What's open code? 00:11:18.322 --> 00:11:21.231 Uh, it's just Claude, it's like the open version of Claude 00:11:21.246 --> 00:11:21.537 Okay. 00:11:21.861 --> 00:11:24.892 So, and you can run with different models and all that kinda stuff. 00:11:25.371 --> 00:11:28.131 Um, like a lot of people seem to really like it. 00:11:28.282 --> 00:11:32.062 Um, I've had some issues when I, when I used it where I've just not been a huge fan. 00:11:33.532 --> 00:11:34.042 but it's cool. 00:11:34.042 --> 00:11:36.471 And they have OpenCode Zen, which allow, you know, allows you to run. 00:11:36.471 --> 00:11:38.511 Like right now they're doing free trials of like. 00:11:38.782 --> 00:11:44.392 Kimi and MiniMax and like all these, you know, open source models, um, which is kind of neat as well. 00:11:44.841 --> 00:11:49.402 Um, but I was just like, oh, let's just make this kind of like a repeatable thing so I can script deploy. 00:11:49.402 --> 00:11:50.361 And then pretty soon I was like. 00:11:50.721 --> 00:11:58.642 I was script deploying and I had to put in a password every time and it was getting annoying 'cause I'm like typing this password or pasting it over and over. 00:11:58.642 --> 00:12:04.042 And I was like, can I just let, okay, just put the password in a file, like M type stuff, you know? 00:12:04.221 --> 00:12:10.341 And then when I do this, like just cat the file into input so that I don't have to do this by myself every time. 00:12:10.341 --> 00:12:10.912 And it was like, cool. 00:12:10.912 --> 00:12:12.621 Did it, so now it can deploy. 00:12:12.621 --> 00:12:14.062 And I was like, cool, now you're deploying. 00:12:14.062 --> 00:12:14.841 And it was like, okay. 00:12:15.081 --> 00:12:19.371 And I was like, also, now you're SSHing and so that you can verify the things you did. 00:12:19.822 --> 00:12:21.111 'cause like I don't wanna be involved. 00:12:21.111 --> 00:12:24.981 And so then it just started, it just started turning and I'd be like, do this, install another thing. 00:12:25.042 --> 00:12:25.522 Do this. 00:12:25.642 --> 00:12:26.392 This didn't work. 00:12:26.782 --> 00:12:32.841 And eventually I got to where, you know, I have, um, I, however, I don't know how you pronounce it, but Lever Chat set up and. 00:12:33.152 --> 00:12:41.942 It's got the Postgres, MCP, and I had the stripe, MCP, um, and I could say like, how many, you know, users do we have or how many graphics were created? 00:12:42.241 --> 00:12:45.542 And it was giving me right answers and I was like, okay, this is kind of cool. 00:12:45.932 --> 00:12:53.131 And so then, you know, from there I was like, well, what would be the most that, like, that's, that works, but what would be something that's actually like really usable? 00:12:53.131 --> 00:12:55.562 And I feel like we just, I have no data on support. 00:12:56.267 --> 00:12:56.687 Mm-hmm. 00:12:57.022

--> 00:12:59.932 for box out, I'm just, I'm like three levels away from it. 00:12:59.961 --> 00:13:05.032 I'm only brought in when there's like a severe technical issue of some sort that has to be debugged. 00:13:05.692 --> 00:13:09.142 And so I was like, I don't know, generally like what happens, what's the most common? 00:13:09.142 --> 00:13:10.131 Any of that kind of stuff. 00:13:10.131 --> 00:13:10.427 And I. 00:13:11.361 --> 00:13:15.562 I've kind of asked for it a few times and it's always just like a gut, well, maybe it's this kind of stuff. 00:13:15.562 --> 00:13:19.851 And so I was like, you know what, we have all these in, you know, crisp. 00:13:19.942 --> 00:13:32.361 And so I was like, I'm just going to, I already have API stuff set up to like allow, allow our admin to like, uh, area in our app to like view the crisp support things and do some extra stuff that Chris, Chris didn't do. 00:13:32.361 --> 00:13:34.701 So I was like, what if I just slrp 'em all into a database? 00:13:35.471 --> 00:13:37.152 got the Postgres MCP already. 00:13:37.751 --> 00:13:40.331 And so I was like, what if I just slipped 'em all in the database and then I could do things? 00:13:40.331 --> 00:13:43.302 And then I was like, what if I vectorized them and then I could do semantic searches on 'em? 00:13:43.302 --> 00:13:46.542 And then I, I was talking with Claude, and Claude was like, you don't need the vector stuff. 00:13:46.542 --> 00:13:49.932 Like just chill out and just, just get the them in the database. 00:13:50.412 --> 00:13:50.951 It's fine. 00:13:51.251 --> 00:13:54.042 So I got 'em in the database and then I was like. 00:13:54.346 --> 00:14:05.506 Build an API endpoint that allows me to like, do these few things, like search by email, search by text, um, you know, list the most recent or for a time range or stuff like that. 00:14:05.567 --> 00:14:09.317 And just to get all of the, the conversations and messages and stuff like that. 00:14:09.647 --> 00:14:13.456 So I built that API, and then I was like, I created a new directory. 00:14:13.456 --> 00:14:16.756 This is all in, like, I mean, half an hour or an hour. 00:14:17.027 --> 00:14:20.626 I was like, okay, now create a new, you know, I created a new director. 00:14:20.626 --> 00:14:22.576 I was like, create an MCP to talk to this api. 00:14:23.287 --> 00:14:25.836 so I'm just linking directories back and forth. 00:14:25.927 --> 00:14:35.376 Uh, should have just did, honestly, at this point, I just want a big mono repo for everything that I work on, but, that doesn't really work, uh, across companies and stuff, but it did it. 00:14:35.376 --> 00:14:37.147 And so it got the MCP and I was like, cool. 00:14:37.147 --> 00:14:41.706 Now I went to the Ansible, you know, brain repo, and I was like, put the MCP in Libra Chat. 00:14:42.591 --> 00:14:44.961 And it did It and it deployed it. 00:14:45.292 --> 00:14:47.032 I was like, sweet, this is really cool. 00:14:47.152 --> 00:14:48.261 So then I was like, all right. 00:14:48.322 --> 00:14:52.971 I went to Lever Chat and I was like, gimme a summary of the last week of support requests. 00:14:52.971 --> 00:14:54.562 And it was like, oh, here's the breakdown. 00:14:54.562 --> 00:14:58.611 Like, you know, 25% are account related, 25% are technical. 00:14:58.611 --> 00:15:04.101 You know, 15% are like having problems with like social media accounts and connecting and stuff, because that is. 00:15:04.942 --> 00:15:06.111 Horrible generally. 00:15:06.142 --> 00:15:12.772 Um, and you know, then it was like a, yeah, and then a few other like, uh, things and I was like, that's cool. 00:15:12.772 --> 00:15:14.636 And I was like, what's the tone of our support? 00:15:15.292 --> 00:15:18.981 Person, like, how would you classify their responses? 00:15:18.981 --> 00:15:21.802 And it was like, warm and helpful. 00:15:21.831 --> 00:15:23.932 And I was like, that's what you want to hear, right? 00:15:23.932 --> 00:15:25.251 Like, that's, you want to hear that. 00:15:25.251 --> 00:15:25.761 You don't wanna hear. 00:15:25.761 --> 00:15:29.631 Like, they're like, if, if we were gonna make suggestions for improvements, maybe a little brief. 00:15:29.871 --> 00:15:31.192 And I'm like, okay. 00:15:31.221 --> 00:15:32.812 Like that's, that's fine. 00:15:32.812 --> 00:15:33.892 I can live with that. 00:15:33.892 --> 00:15:39.741 You know, like, So I, I was like, this is really cool to be able to like, so now. 00:15:40.701 --> 00:15:42.831 I mean, I can, it's just like, what, what do I want? 00:15:42.831 --> 00:15:48.351 So now I know the next thing I want, which I haven't got into because I've been stuck on a couple of other dumb things. 00:15:48.802 --> 00:15:56.751 But, um, I wanna do like automatic stuff, like just run this every day or week and, you know, slack it. 00:15:56.841 --> 00:16:04.876 Um, so I saw like the chat, SDK from whoever made that Vercel or somebody, um, where you can like very easily run this thing and then. 00:16:05.601 --> 00:16:14.091 Posted to a bajillion different slack or, you know, discord or like anything, it's like a adapter to all of the chat things. 00:16:14.376 --> 00:16:14.496 Yep. 00:16:14.542 --> 00:16:15.682 And I was like, okay. 00:16:15.682 --> 00:16:31.072 So like, that seems like the a, a sensible, like next thing is basically like on every week, on like Sunday, run a report that's like, here's the most common support requests over the last with like, you know, a couple of examples of it. 00:16:31.496 --> 00:16:35.611 Then plop it in Slack, so every, just automatically it's there, you know? 00:16:36.096 --> 00:16:36.846 Let, let me, 00:16:36.851 --> 00:16:37.211 like that. 00:16:37.506 --> 00:16:41.767 let me interrupt you before I lose too much of a, a train of thought here. 00:16:41.767 --> 00:16:42.037 Right. 00:16:42.037 --> 00:16:53.346 But is like, so for the scheduling thing, are you literally like typing that into a LibreChat and saying, you know, AI go schedule

this, or are you like, is this like a cron job? 00:16:53.917 --> 00:16:54.336 Like, do you, 00:16:54.471 --> 00:16:56.692 I think, yeah, what I'm gonna do is cron it. 00:16:56.692 --> 00:16:56.782 I 00:16:56.922 --> 00:16:57.211 okay. 00:16:57.261 --> 00:17:05.422 I think what I'm gonna do is I'll, I have Claude and open code both on there and they, you know, they have dash P and stuff like that where you can just like pass things in and then get output. 00:17:05.481 --> 00:17:10.642 Um, so I think that's what I'm gonna do is set up like a cron, just a script that runs a couple of Claude things. 00:17:10.971 --> 00:17:20.571 On top of and I'll, so I'll just install that same MCP that's in Libra, chat into Claude, and then have, tell Claude the same questions and to summarize it and do all those things. 00:17:20.721 --> 00:17:24.622 And then, um, you know, the script at the end will take the output and just shove it 00:17:24.741 --> 00:17:24.951 Got it. 00:17:25.011 --> 00:17:25.221 Yeah. 00:17:25.251 --> 00:17:26.122 uh, slack channel. 00:17:26.511 --> 00:17:27.112 That makes sense. 00:17:27.112 --> 00:17:41.781 So sometimes it's easy, it's hard to see where the line is between like, you know, uh, you know, a chat, I'll, I'll just say chat generically to mean with an AI and like automation, right? 00:17:41.781 --> 00:17:48.592 Like, I think what I've come to think lately and I, I feel like things are changing so fast. 00:17:48.592 --> 00:17:52.086 I, you know, maybe change my mind tomorrow, but it's like, all right. 00:17:53.001 --> 00:17:55.162 Those are actually two different things, right? 00:17:55.162 --> 00:17:57.412 Automation and ai, right? 00:17:57.412 --> 00:18:10.281 AI can do the work in, you know, using sort of natural language, but automation needs a trigger or some sort of schedule or something to actually kick off the AI to do the thing, right? 00:18:10.281 --> 00:18:11.872 Do you, do you think of it the same way, 00:18:12.862 --> 00:18:18.471 Yeah, I mean, I think it has to have something, or you have to have some system that can take natural language and then turn it into that. 00:18:18.471 --> 00:18:18.622 right? 00:18:18.862 --> 00:18:21.981 Um, like what I, what I did is I installed like, oh, so open code. 00:18:21.981 --> 00:18:29.092 The only reason I installed it is because they have open code web, is like, you can just run a command and then it runs a chat interface that's just like, you know. 00:18:29.172 --> 00:18:31.362 Cloud code or, or stuff like that. 00:18:31.602 --> 00:18:42.521 So you can like have, you know, you can go into what directories and then you can like tell open code to run things against different models and it'll literally just make files, you know, do get things like whatever. 00:18:42.521 --> 00:18:43.241 All that kinda stuff. 00:18:43.241 --> 00:18:50.321 And I was like, again, I wanted that to exist 'cause I wanted to be able to control the server from chat I needed to. 00:18:50.622 --> 00:18:58.811 So I feel like that's the kind of thing that like you could pretty easily be like, you know, I could just clone brain on that server and then. 00:18:59.271 --> 00:19:07.311 Tell it to like, do something and then tell it to like also, you know, to like put it in the get repo also and commit it so that it, it does both. 00:19:07.311 --> 00:19:12.922 Like if I'm on my phone, I could just be like, Hey, set up a new trigger, you know, a new crown every day that does this. 00:19:13.192 --> 00:19:14.571 And open code would do that. 00:19:14.571 --> 00:19:19.281 It would just be like, cool, uh, you want this crown and this file and this is what it's gonna run. 00:19:19.281 --> 00:19:21.471 Do you want me to make a script and set dash, eat it? 00:19:21.471 --> 00:19:22.372 And all that kind of stuff. 00:19:22.507 --> 00:19:22.926 Yeah, 00:19:23.481 --> 00:19:23.811 but yeah, 00:19:23.826 --> 00:19:24.247 you still use. 00:19:24.501 --> 00:19:25.011 how I do it. 00:19:25.896 --> 00:19:32.916 Claude or OpenCode to create the thing, but it is literally just creating the script and cron job for you. 00:19:33.396 --> 00:19:33.606 Yeah. 00:19:33.696 --> 00:19:34.086 Yeah. 00:19:34.386 --> 00:19:40.596 And then you get the, the benefit of like, you know, at the end of it, and again, there's a ton of people that are starting to build these automation things. 00:19:40.596 --> 00:19:45.817 Like, I feel like, uh, I've seen like a bunch of 'em in the, in the past three days. 00:19:45.846 --> 00:19:53.737 Um, but none of 'em have been, I haven't seen anybody that's hyperfocused on like company, like solving in internal company things. 00:19:53.767 --> 00:19:54.156 I guess 00:19:54.217 --> 00:19:58.912 there's a bunch of the big ones that are like, you know, AI orchestration, right? 00:19:59.271 --> 00:20:01.821 Uh, N eight N and 00:20:01.836 --> 00:20:02.227 Yeah. 00:20:02.332 --> 00:20:04.281 you know that that's type, but Right. 00:20:04.281 --> 00:20:04.672 I think. 00:20:05.152 --> 00:20:08.392 I think what you just said is a good reminder that it doesn't have to be that complicated. 00:20:08.571 --> 00:20:08.872 Right. 00:20:08.872 --> 00:20:14.332 It's a, there's a cron process and there's a script and that could be all you need, right? 00:20:14.332 --> 00:20:15.561 Like to start. 00:20:16.372 --> 00:20:16.791 Right. 00:20:17.451 --> 00:20:23.902 Um, all right, so you've been bouncing back between open code and quad code in this conversation. 00:20:23.991 --> 00:20:24.382 Right. 00:20:24.382 --> 00:20:28.192 And when you say Claude Code, I just wanna make sure I understand. 00:20:28.192 --> 00:20:33.382 It's like you're, you know, you're using your subscription like you're paying for something there, right? 00:20:33.961 --> 00:20:34.182 Yep. 00:20:34.551 --> 00:20:34.672 Yeah. 00:20:34.731 --> 00:20:35.001 Okay. 00:20:35.692 --> 00:20:39.471 Um, and then open code is sort of the open source version of that. 00:20:39.471 --> 00:20:44.001 So you, it

doesn't necessarily have a subscription, but it can still hook into models. 00:20:44.001 --> 00:20:44.301 Right. 00:20:44.301 --> 00:20:45.321 So you'd have to pay for that. 00:20:45.801 --> 00:20:46.221 Yes. 00:20:46.221 --> 00:20:46.342 You 00:20:46.346 --> 00:20:46.636 Yeah. 00:20:46.642 --> 00:20:46.731 the 00:20:46.926 --> 00:20:47.277 Right. 00:20:47.451 --> 00:20:48.321 for, or the models? 00:20:48.321 --> 00:20:50.571 Not for the um, not for the harness. 00:20:50.602 --> 00:20:50.811 Yeah. 00:20:50.811 --> 00:20:55.672 The harness is free, which is just like the, the CLI or the web interface that it runs. 00:20:55.672 --> 00:21:08.211 The only reason I'm not using open code in my daily life at all, the only reason I use open code in on this one project is because it has a web version, my dream was I want everything to work from my phone anywhere. 00:21:08.432 --> 00:21:09.211 Whenever I Dang. 00:21:09.211 --> 00:21:09.872 Well, please. 00:21:10.231 --> 00:21:12.602 And the only way I could figure it out was I, I 00:21:12.721 --> 00:21:13.011 Yeah. 00:21:13.172 --> 00:21:15.842 now, was that without vibing a whole bunch of stuff, so 00:21:16.057 --> 00:21:27.156 So Claude, that's, that's a frustrating thing for me right now with the Claude Mobile app, which is like, I can do it, but then I can't pull it open on my desktop and continue like, so I, I have to like start and finish. 00:21:27.561 --> 00:21:28.866 I, I just saw something 00:21:28.866 --> 00:21:28.896 Okay. 00:21:29.076 --> 00:21:32.856 like yesterday that they, if you're on the max plan, actually I think you get, 00:21:33.301 --> 00:21:34.021 The remote. 00:21:34.086 --> 00:21:34.237 it. 00:21:34.416 --> 00:21:34.567 Yeah. 00:21:34.567 --> 00:21:35.287 It's like the remote one. 00:21:35.291 --> 00:21:36.696 Alright, well there we go. 00:21:36.696 --> 00:21:36.817 I'm 00:21:37.082 --> 00:21:37.501 ha. 00:21:37.957 --> 00:21:38.557 later today. 00:21:39.487 --> 00:21:43.836 It's, well, I think they're, they count any max, so 102 hundred, I think both Count. 00:21:43.866 --> 00:21:44.586 I, it's 00:21:44.737 --> 00:21:44.916 Well, 00:21:45.067 --> 00:21:46.567 that, those are both the max plans. 00:21:46.567 --> 00:21:49.027 Just one, one super and one's regular, 00:21:49.116 --> 00:21:57.636 well, maybe I'm missing something 'cause I, I have the max hundred plan and I can do stuff on my phone, but I cannot figure out like how to get that. 00:21:58.491 --> 00:22:00.172 On my desktop may, I guess, 00:22:00.261 --> 00:22:00.481 So, 00:22:00.892 --> 00:22:03.771 well, let me rephrase Now that I'm, I'm saying it out loud, right? 00:22:03.771 --> 00:22:17.602 I can probably pull it open in the, the web view and see it, but I can't then access it from, you know, I, I use the VS code extension in my, you know, vs code editor to use Claude, right? 00:22:17.602 --> 00:22:18.711 So maybe I, that's a disconnect. 00:22:18.711 --> 00:22:19.071 I don't know. 00:22:19.596 --> 00:22:22.626 Well, you can tell it, uh, from your phone or from the desktop. 00:22:22.626 --> 00:22:28.267 You can tell it to commit to GitHub and it'll make, do that and make PRS and stuff, and then you can clone it and so you're all good. 00:22:28.326 --> 00:22:28.777 So that, that's 00:22:28.896 --> 00:22:29.166 Well, 00:22:29.166 --> 00:22:29.886 before, but 00:22:30.156 --> 00:22:33.787 I do that, but you lose the chat history, right? 00:22:33.936 --> 00:22:36.606 Like I wanted to be able to just like pick up where I left off. 00:22:37.507 --> 00:22:37.626 You 00:22:37.642 --> 00:22:39.741 And sometimes that's useful and sometimes it's not, right? 00:22:39.741 --> 00:22:44.152 Like sometimes it's better to just nuke the context window and start from where you're at. 00:22:44.152 --> 00:22:45.471 But, um, 00:22:45.636 --> 00:22:45.997 Yeah. 00:22:46.402 --> 00:22:54.291 I'm working on a very specific problem that is like, it took a while to build the context and it's like, I don't really wanna start over. 00:22:54.291 --> 00:22:56.092 So I guess I'm gonna sit here and type up my phone now. 00:22:57.487 --> 00:23:03.156 Well, I think what you can do for those scenarios, I've started like realizing this, that like, uh, these things are not. 00:23:04.281 --> 00:23:13.521 The way that, like, I, I didn't realize this before, but like the way uh, Claude works when it's going back and forth it literally sends the whole chat every time. 00:23:13.521 --> 00:23:15.021 That's why we have compaction and stuff. 00:23:15.021 --> 00:23:16.551 Like they are not intelligent. 00:23:16.551 --> 00:23:17.902 There's no memory on the other side. 00:23:17.902 --> 00:23:19.761 They're sending the whole thing every time. 00:23:20.241 --> 00:23:23.211 So like, that's why I've started the last like. 00:23:23.211 --> 00:23:25.817 Four or five days, I start over way more often. 00:23:26.237 --> 00:23:38.537 Um, I think it just, you actually end up with better results because, you've went through the other side of it, like your head has, has distilled the problem down and so then it, it can be a lot more succinct to redescribe the issue. 00:23:39.376 --> 00:23:42.916 and then sometimes it doesn't have the baggage that the previous conversation had. 00:23:43.416 --> 00:23:46.386 Yeah, so I've noticed that as well. 00:23:46.386 --> 00:23:52.957 And now I am, as a result, I open more tabs and have separate conversations. 00:23:53.721 --> 00:23:54.771 Typically in parallel. 00:23:54.771 --> 00:24:07.912 And I wanna, I wanted to ask you about sort of parallel work in a second, but to wrap up sort of your, your Brain AI company in a box I thing the Postgres MCP server. 00:24:08.781 --> 00:24:13.642 Is sort of the MCP to talk to your read replica database, right? 00:24:13.642 --> 00:24:15.531 Like it's the connection to that. 00:24:15.531 --> 00:24:15.711 And 00:24:15.846 --> 00:24:16.237 Yeah. 00:24:16.642 --> 00:24:21.922 Stripe, MCP is the connection to Stripe data on Stripe, I assume, right?

00:24:21.922 --> 00:24:24.832 That's how is that the right framework of thinking about this thing? 00:24:25.521 --> 00:24:28.672 Yeah, and you can turn all all of them on and talk to all of them. 00:24:28.672 --> 00:24:30.892 So I could be like, here's an email address. 00:24:30.892 --> 00:24:33.711 Tell me everything you can about it from the database, stripe and support. 00:24:34.477 --> 00:24:44.196 It would gimme a summary on them, like it, and it would pull all the data and then, you know, it would use the LLM to like analyze it and then give you a report back, which is really cool again. 00:24:44.227 --> 00:24:55.807 'cause like what kicked it off was like, one of our salespeople had a list of attendees to a conference, um, that they, that they had went to and they were going through and trying to figure out who was a box out customer and who wasn't. 00:24:55.807 --> 00:24:57.487 And so who should they follow up with? 00:24:57.922 --> 00:24:58.211 Yeah. 00:24:58.237 --> 00:25:01.747 were like, 'cause we don't just throw a thing in and send a mass email that's not. 00:25:01.997 --> 00:25:02.987 The way we operate. 00:25:02.987 --> 00:25:05.027 I everyone hates that, so why would we do it? 00:25:05.297 --> 00:25:06.767 So instead we do personal stuff. 00:25:06.767 --> 00:25:11.777 And so he spent three hours of one day going through like a hundred emails and he was like, this is really slow. 00:25:11.777 --> 00:25:20.027 And he told, you know, um, Robbie, who's like, um, co-owner and whatever, and, and so I was like, oh no, we can totally solve this. 00:25:20.057 --> 00:25:23.866 So in like 10 minutes I made a script that would just hydrate. 00:25:24.517 --> 00:25:27.067 An email with, have they ever been a subscriber? 00:25:27.067 --> 00:25:28.567 Are they currently a subscriber? 00:25:28.836 --> 00:25:30.336 You know, never been a subscriber. 00:25:30.336 --> 00:25:31.086 That kind of stuff. 00:25:31.086 --> 00:25:33.007 And then like if they were, here's some other stuff. 00:25:33.037 --> 00:25:36.186 And so it was just like, take a spreadsheet, hydrate it with a thing. 00:25:36.186 --> 00:25:37.626 And I was like, this should be ai. 00:25:37.626 --> 00:25:42.696 This should not be, I mean, I was using ai, but he should be able to do this on his own without my assistance. 00:25:42.936 --> 00:25:46.356 That's kind of where the whole brain idea kicked off is like, let's solve that one. 00:25:46.356 --> 00:25:46.446 And 00:25:46.491 --> 00:25:47.227 It feels like 00:25:47.227 --> 00:25:47.586 thing that 00:25:47.707 --> 00:25:50.017 you're almost there if you're not already. 00:25:50.017 --> 00:25:50.376 Right. 00:25:51.037 --> 00:25:51.336 Yeah. 00:25:51.396 --> 00:25:51.666 Yeah. 00:25:51.727 --> 00:25:52.507 Like, and that was. 00:25:52.717 --> 00:25:53.346 Described. 00:25:53.977 --> 00:25:58.057 Few hours of work, maybe over the course of like, you know, a couple days. 00:25:58.116 --> 00:25:58.686 Um, 00:25:58.912 --> 00:25:59.957 Think

about how much time. 00:26:03.277 --> 00:26:04.267 that is the hope. 00:26:04.267 --> 00:26:11.616 We're really big on automation and like trying to not add humans to do things when we can make, you know, we've always been this way from the beginning. 00:26:11.797 --> 00:26:15.876 Um, so we're very small compared to like, competitors in the same size and stuff like that. 00:26:16.356 --> 00:26:19.116 Um, but even more so now, so. 00:26:20.402 --> 00:26:22.862 Uh, just another question on like the interface. 00:26:22.862 --> 00:26:31.027 You mentioned Slack before, like the, kinda like a digest it sounded like, but how are the people that aren't you interfacing with this, this brain? 00:26:31.027 --> 00:26:37.416 Yeah, so right now I have tail scale on it so that, you know, it's only accessible via tail scale. 00:26:37.416 --> 00:26:46.027 So what I've started doing is I just, have been inviting each of the people that can use it and that to the tail scale, uh, tail net or whatever they call it. 00:26:46.416 --> 00:26:52.207 And then they just download the Mac app, and then they go to like a, I do tail scale serve, you know, for Libra Chat. 00:26:52.416 --> 00:26:54.757 And so they get like a URL that they can go to. 00:26:54.757 --> 00:26:56.497 So basically it's like bookmark A URL. 00:26:56.781 --> 00:26:59.902 And just have tail scale running and you're, and you can access it and you're fine. 00:26:59.991 --> 00:27:03.261 Um, and so that, I think that's, that's the way right now. 00:27:03.261 --> 00:27:04.791 Does that, does that answer the question? 00:27:04.791 --> 00:27:05.571 Was I getting the right? 00:27:05.711 --> 00:27:06.311 I'm not familiar 00:27:06.412 --> 00:27:06.471 Um. 00:27:06.521 --> 00:27:08.487 tail scale, but I kind of get the gist of what you're 00:27:08.521 --> 00:27:09.606 It is, it tail scale's. 00:27:09.606 --> 00:27:11.227 Like a company VP is sick. 00:27:11.257 --> 00:27:11.946 It's so cool. 00:27:11.946 --> 00:27:16.747 Like I, I have not used it until this project, but I was like, everyone keeps talking about tail scale for this purpose. 00:27:16.747 --> 00:27:18.757 So I was like, I'm just gonna figure it out. 00:27:18.787 --> 00:27:19.926 Uh, AKA Claude. 00:27:20.406 --> 00:27:22.507 And so Claude was like, yeah, just download it, do this. 00:27:22.507 --> 00:27:26.616 And then I, I just take screenshots of the UI and I'd paste him into Claude and I'd be like, what do I do next? 00:27:27.011 --> 00:27:27.231 Yep. 00:27:27.682 --> 00:27:35.811 and like, you know, if you've been doing this for 20 years, like I have, like you have a sniff test and you know what's legit and what's not, and tail scale is, is really sick. 00:27:35.811 --> 00:27:47.781 You end up with a little menu bar item, a Mac app, iOS app, and then it just creates this like network that anyone who's running that and correctly off can, can load infor, you know, information 00:27:47.977 --> 00:27:48.247 Yep. 00:27:48.261 --> 00:27:50.001 that is running on that. 00:27:50.241 --> 00:27:51.771 And anyone who isn't, can't. 00:27:52.461 --> 00:27:58.311 So it's like a VPN, you know, like if you're at any big company, it's like a VPN. 00:27:58.311 --> 00:28:05.991 You just add a person, tell 'em, you know, set the permissions of what they can access and what they can't, and just install Mac app and log in with an email and that's it. 00:28:06.471 --> 00:28:06.951 Right. 00:28:06.981 --> 00:28:09.892 Is the interface kinda like a web interface though, and then it's 00:28:10.106 --> 00:28:10.326 Yep. 00:28:10.582 --> 00:28:12.412 basically tunneled through this VPN basically. 00:28:12.981 --> 00:28:13.281 Yes. 00:28:13.342 --> 00:28:13.551 Yeah. 00:28:13.551 --> 00:28:15.112 So Libra Chat is a web interface. 00:28:15.112 --> 00:28:15.382 Yep. 00:28:15.801 --> 00:28:16.132 Okay. 00:28:16.132 --> 00:28:16.551 tail scale. 00:28:16.551 --> 00:28:18.442 Also, both of 'em have web interfaces. 00:28:18.442 --> 00:28:18.682 Yeah. 00:28:19.146 --> 00:28:19.446 That 00:28:19.491 --> 00:28:24.051 So tail scale.com is you access outside of the tail scale network. 00:28:24.051 --> 00:28:27.531 Like that's just like go to a thing, like any SaaS and sign in and do your thing. 00:28:27.862 --> 00:28:34.672 Um, Libra Chat is running via tail scale serve, which basically specifically creates like a subdomain for your tail net. 00:28:35.092 --> 00:28:38.616 So it's like Libra chat tail, whatever kind of a thing. 00:28:38.676 --> 00:28:44.076 Um, and it's kinda like eng gr or, uh, you know, any of those kind of t tunneling things. 00:28:44.076 --> 00:28:44.467 Yeah, yeah. 00:28:44.467 --> 00:28:45.096 That's the best way. 00:28:45.096 --> 00:28:49.086 The mental model is eng gr uh, it's like eng gr for your company, of. 00:28:49.146 --> 00:28:50.166 Uh, you can do Eng Rock. 00:28:50.227 --> 00:28:54.217 I could do all the same things probably, but tail scale seems like the cool kid on the block. 00:28:54.217 --> 00:28:55.416 So I was like, I'll try 'em out. 00:28:55.416 --> 00:28:57.217 And they're as advertised. 00:28:57.217 --> 00:28:57.696 It's pretty good. 00:28:57.696 --> 00:29:00.126 You get a, I don't know, a hundred some devices for free. 00:29:00.247 --> 00:29:00.817 I mean, you 00:29:00.906 --> 00:29:03.426 So why do you need that? 00:29:03.426 --> 00:29:11.707 Like, couldn't you just have like a, is it to avoid having to run your own server to off and then show the chat interface? 00:29:12.336 --> 00:29:13.146 Like what's the benefit? 00:29:14.092 --> 00:29:17.571 so Libra Chat actually even also has auth as well. 00:29:17.571 --> 00:29:22.971 Mostly I was just like, this has literally, this box is going to have literally everything related to the company on it. 00:29:22.971 --> 00:29:24.771 I would like it to be as locked down as possible, 00:29:25.162 --> 00:29:27.321 so it was more of a security concern than a 00:29:27.412 --> 00:29:28.071 yes. 00:29:28.521 --> 00:29:29.991 challenge that you had to

overcome. 00:29:31.041 --> 00:29:41.692 I mean, I don't want somebody trying to hack, you know, email addresses on Libra Chat or, you know, I don't know, like any number of attempts to, to get into it. 00:29:41.692 --> 00:29:47.061 And so I was like, just completely lock it one extra layer. 00:29:47.152 --> 00:29:49.132 'cause all the stuff is gonna be centralized there. 00:29:49.491 --> 00:29:53.872 So that creates, you know, a little more of an, uh, attack vector if anybody were going to. 00:29:53.872 --> 00:29:55.041 So that, that was my thought. 00:29:55.041 --> 00:29:55.342 But, 00:29:55.747 --> 00:29:56.136 You know. 00:29:56.136 --> 00:29:56.616 That's fair. 00:29:56.616 --> 00:29:58.602 I was just, I was like, all right, well, why do you actually. 00:29:59.781 --> 00:30:02.092 You know, outside of security, why do you actually need it? 00:30:02.092 --> 00:30:10.011 You could just have a, a webpage somewhere that has a password, you know, authentication system and be like, all right, but yeah, that, that makes sense. 00:30:10.011 --> 00:30:12.862 You're putting pretty much your, your whole business in that. 00:30:13.551 --> 00:30:15.261 Let, let's make sure it's secure. 00:30:16.027 --> 00:30:16.957 All the repos. 00:30:16.957 --> 00:30:19.116 It has read access to the database. 00:30:19.176 --> 00:30:26.346 It has, you know, a bunch of API tokens for Claude, for, uh, codex, for, open Code Zen. 00:30:26.346 --> 00:30:28.926 Like, there's just, there's a ton of stuff in one spot. 00:30:28.957 --> 00:30:30.037 So I was like, you know what? 00:30:30.037 --> 00:30:31.807 Let's just lock it down. 00:30:31.807 --> 00:30:35.136 Even SSH can be locked down to only if you're on the tail scale. 00:30:35.136 --> 00:30:35.616 So like. 00:30:36.382 --> 00:30:37.162 That's kind of cool too. 00:30:37.162 --> 00:30:40.342 It doesn't even matter if you have the right keys if you're not on the tail scale network. 00:30:40.342 --> 00:30:45.172 Also, you can't get in, like you can really kind of lock it down, which is kind of neat. 00:30:45.231 --> 00:30:45.592 So, 00:30:45.606 --> 00:30:46.136 Yeah, that's cool. 00:30:48.166 --> 00:30:55.636 Well, I, I'd like to shift gears a little bit to, you know, back to the, the actual day to day like coding with Claude and like 00:30:55.821 --> 00:30:56.031 sure. 00:30:56.237 --> 00:30:56.656 doing. 00:30:57.047 --> 00:30:58.007 Like how, how big is 00:30:58.007 --> 00:30:58.227 So. 00:30:58.336 --> 00:30:59.567 I forget if we talked about that 00:30:59.571 --> 00:31:13.612 So, uh, coders, let's say five or so, so there's probably like five of us that are actually like code and then, you know, the entire company is like, you know, including contractors that are borderline full-time. 00:31:13.612 --> 00:31:15.922 Basically we're probably 15, 20 people, something like that. 00:31:15.922 --> 00:31:16.221 So. 00:31:16.701 --> 00:31:18.261 Yeah, so, so quite a few people. 00:31:19.192 --> 00:31:21.981 just like the, paint the picture here for me. 00:31:22.011 --> 00:31:32.001 So if you guys are all pushing Claude to the max no, no pun intended, but you're pushing your max plan to the max, 00:31:32.047 --> 00:31:32.527 Mm-hmm. 00:31:33.021 --> 00:31:33.471 and. 00:31:34.192 --> 00:31:35.332 What does that mean exactly? 00:31:35.332 --> 00:31:44.031 Is that just like tons of prs and you guys have all gotta be managing these with either Claude reviews or your own personal reviews or like what does that look like? 00:31:44.692 --> 00:31:46.342 there's new problems for sure. 00:31:46.432 --> 00:31:57.231 Um, so like before the problem was like getting the code built and all, you know, testing it and all the things and the whole process and then getting it merged and like I would say our, we have very minimal process. 00:31:57.231 --> 00:32:00.892 Like our goal is like give people a lot of autonomy to do things like. 00:32:01.916 --> 00:32:11.126 kind of knows, like if you're gonna migrate the database, like check with John, you know, like, um, because I'm the one that probably cares the most about that and has the most experience with it. 00:32:11.457 --> 00:32:13.497 So from that standpoint, you know, there's bits of it. 00:32:13.497 --> 00:32:16.557 And then, you know, if you're going into like the producer screen, okay, talk to Steve. 00:32:16.886 --> 00:32:19.257 If you're going, you know, to like various sections of the app. 00:32:19.257 --> 00:32:23.186 There's just like, um, don't know, heard, heard. 00:32:24.787 --> 00:32:27.007 You know, everybody just kind of knows this is the spot. 00:32:27.007 --> 00:32:29.346 Like if it's, if it's a template related thing, we talk to Philip. 00:32:29.737 --> 00:32:32.106 So it's just like everybody kind of knows that already. 00:32:32.106 --> 00:32:34.477 Now everybody's just slinging stuff like crazy. 00:32:34.477 --> 00:32:37.237 Like before, like using Philip as an example. 00:32:37.237 --> 00:32:42.126 He was more, we brought him on specifically for like React and for HT ML and things like that. 00:32:42.727 --> 00:32:47.436 And now, I mean, he's consistently making PRS to the Rails app that are. 00:32:47.856 --> 00:32:50.017 Good enough that I'm like, yep, let's merge it. 00:32:50.227 --> 00:32:51.096 It's, it's good to go. 00:32:51.096 --> 00:33:00.757 And maybe, maybe like a, like the first couple that he did, without Claude, I was like, Hmm, I see what you're doing here, but you've got like, you know, camel case, we're underscore here. 00:33:00.757 --> 00:33:01.896 Like this isn't gonna work. 00:33:01.896 --> 00:33:03.936 You know, like, outta my code. 00:33:04.267 --> 00:33:04.626 No. 00:33:04.896 --> 00:33:05.326 And um. 00:33:05.942 --> 00:33:10.622 But like now, I mean, with Claude, it was like the first one he did, it was really close. 00:33:10.622 --> 00:33:12.811 And I was like, well, I can see some resiliency issues. 00:33:12.811 --> 00:33:15.751 You know, there's a loop and inside the loop it's doing an

HTTP request. 00:33:15.751 --> 00:33:16.951 And I'm like, what if one of 'em fails? 00:33:16.951 --> 00:33:20.551 You know, like, um, what, how we, we'll end up in a partial state. 00:33:20.551 --> 00:33:23.491 So I was like, at Claude, like, what would you do for this scenario? 00:33:23.491 --> 00:33:30.451 Like, mostly as like, 'cause I thought, well, if he sees it, so we have the GitHub integrations for Claude as well, so. 00:33:30.787 --> 00:33:40.326 That we can say at Claude on any, any PR and anything like that, and Claude will it and issue comments or actually commit the code and make the change or any of that kind of stuff. 00:33:40.326 --> 00:33:41.227 We set that up as well. 00:33:41.227 --> 00:33:41.856 It's, it's great. 00:33:42.007 --> 00:33:46.086 And so, um, we, I did at Claude, like, you know. 00:33:46.777 --> 00:33:50.886 Uh, I see some resiliency problems there, like in review the rest. 00:33:51.067 --> 00:33:54.457 And so then, you know, and so Philip saw that because it comes in as a comment, 00:33:54.951 --> 00:33:55.281 Yep. 00:33:55.507 --> 00:33:57.487 he like makes some changes based on that. 00:33:57.757 --> 00:34:00.156 And he is like, you know, uh, what do you think now? 00:34:00.156 --> 00:34:01.866 And I was like, at Claude review the changes. 00:34:02.257 --> 00:34:03.727 And he was like, oh, I see what you've done there. 00:34:04.987 --> 00:34:10.777 Like, and so, so now he puts it in a spin cycle before it even gets to me. 00:34:10.777 --> 00:34:11.317 You know what I mean? 00:34:11.317 --> 00:34:12.907 Like, so he'll do the PR. 00:34:13.161 --> 00:34:15.141 He'll do the review locally in conductor. 00:34:15.411 --> 00:34:19.972 He'll find a couple things, review again in conductor, find a couple things, review again until there's nothing. 00:34:20.152 --> 00:34:22.072 And then when there's nothing, he creates the PR up there. 00:34:22.072 --> 00:34:26.481 And then he says, ATLA review this as a staff engineer with specific skillset of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:34:26.902 --> 00:34:28.472 And then, and that's just another thing that I've. 00:34:28.686 --> 00:34:30.246 I useful. 00:34:30.246 --> 00:34:32.556 And so I've started, you know, broadcasting to everybody. 00:34:33.217 --> 00:34:36.487 so he'll put that on and he'll go through all the fixes for those. 00:34:36.666 --> 00:34:39.367 And then once he gets through all that, he's like, what do you guys think? 00:34:39.427 --> 00:34:42.126 And then it's like, yeah, stamp of approval most of the time. 00:34:42.126 --> 00:34:45.336 Like it, generally it, there's not there. 00:34:45.697 --> 00:34:54.547 You know, once it's went through the spin cycle locally and also remotely and each of those spin cycles have no previous context, they're all like new context reviews. 00:34:54.907 --> 00:34:59.556 So they're not like, you're in this thread and you've got it done a whole bunch of things and now you're like, Hey, review yourself. 00:34:59.797 --> 00:35:04.447

It's like, no, this is a new thing coming in that has no emotional attachment to this code that was written. 00:35:04.447 --> 00:35:05.166 And it's just like, 00:35:05.226 --> 00:35:05.556 Right. 00:35:05.586 --> 00:35:06.217 figure this out. 00:35:06.217 --> 00:35:06.547 You know? 00:35:06.847 --> 00:35:12.697 So that's, um, that's like a good example of like a typical work workflow that's helped a lot because. 00:35:13.431 --> 00:35:15.442 At first I was like, oh my gosh, what are we gonna do? 00:35:15.442 --> 00:35:21.112 Like everybody's pumping out, you know, several PRS a day and I'm now a blocker and I don't wanna be a blocker. 00:35:21.112 --> 00:35:24.592 So now clog can kind of help iterate on that a little bit. 00:35:25.282 --> 00:35:29.001 And then for me, you know, like my day to day is like, I mean. 00:35:29.902 --> 00:35:40.641 I, again, today I'm having some issues with conductors, so I'll, I will, I'll stick to the positives before the last, like four days, five days, it's kind of scrambled my brain the last four or five days with some issues. 00:35:40.641 --> 00:35:43.791 But conductor is awesome 'cause you get this whole left side. 00:35:44.181 --> 00:35:47.722 I don't, I don't open editors anymore unless I just wanna see the whole file with like. 00:35:48.097 --> 00:35:49.927 A particular syntax highlighting scheme. 00:35:49.927 --> 00:35:51.487 That's literally the only reason why. 00:35:52.717 --> 00:35:54.427 and so it's on the left side. 00:35:54.427 --> 00:35:57.186 It's like all the workspaces that I have across all my repos. 00:35:57.456 --> 00:36:00.427 And then on the right upper corner is like your GitHub flow. 00:36:00.427 --> 00:36:02.617 So it's like, here's all the GI diffs and things like that. 00:36:02.617 --> 00:36:05.106 If you wanna click on 'em, side by side views, et cetera. 00:36:05.197 --> 00:36:07.927 And then here's all the like CI checks and stuff like that. 00:36:08.257 --> 00:36:18.456 And then here's, you know, like some individual to-dos if you want to add extra things for like, once you finish the code part of it, like I need to go create a Facebook, you know, social app for threads or things like that. 00:36:18.666 --> 00:36:20.407 So you can have extra things like that too. 00:36:20.677 --> 00:36:25.777 And then it's got the PR linked at the top and I can click that and then it's got the whole flow of like, create the pr. 00:36:25.987 --> 00:36:29.677 And then once it's made, run the ci, fix the errors, you know, that whole get up flow. 00:36:29.677 --> 00:36:31.146 And then the bottom is like a terminal. 00:36:31.626 --> 00:36:33.277 Um, and then the middle is just as many. 00:36:33.331 --> 00:36:37.681 Claude tabs as you want for that individual workspace, and of which you can have lots of them. 00:36:37.981 --> 00:36:41.731 And so that's, that's been my flow for probably two months now. 00:36:41.731 --> 00:36:52.021 It's going really fast, but, or beginning of January, um, in December, I was

still using Claude in ghostie with and tabs and all kinds of stuff. 00:36:53.251 --> 00:36:55.052 because Claude, uh. 00:36:55.791 --> 00:36:59.632 Cloud code in the terminal or with the, like the actual Claude Code. 00:36:59.632 --> 00:37:03.442 SDK is a different beast than in an, in an any editor. 00:37:03.442 --> 00:37:13.041 I used it in Cursor and which is basically vs code, et cetera, and it's just, it's totally different in the end, end result that you get in my experience. 00:37:13.222 --> 00:37:13.936 Maybe they've caught up. 00:37:14.706 --> 00:37:17.646 In the, in that, in the last little bit. 00:37:17.646 --> 00:37:18.157 I don't know. 00:37:19.266 --> 00:37:21.367 but yeah, so that's day to day me and I got right away. 00:37:21.367 --> 00:37:31.927 What I did is I was like, I'm a salesperson, so my job is I figured out, you know, Claude Code and Opus and I went to everybody and I was like, get the a hundred dollars plan, get the a hundred dollars plan when you max it out. 00:37:31.927 --> 00:37:32.976 Get the $200 plan. 00:37:33.217 --> 00:37:34.777 If you need my credit card, let me know. 00:37:34.777 --> 00:37:35.797 Like all that kind of stuff. 00:37:35.797 --> 00:37:36.967 And I was like, here's how I do it. 00:37:37.306 --> 00:37:39.047 Show 'em like three or four things, get 'em going. 00:37:39.376 --> 00:37:42.586 Then it was like two weeks later, I was like, conductor's better. 00:37:42.586 --> 00:37:43.306 Here's the thing. 00:37:43.336 --> 00:37:48.192 And, and what's cool is because the first time there was some uptake, you know, that like it was a little slow 'cause it was like. 00:37:48.996 --> 00:37:51.336 Because everyone's like, whoa, I'm not the editor. 00:37:51.336 --> 00:37:52.416 This feels weird. 00:37:52.416 --> 00:37:53.317 Everything's different now. 00:37:53.317 --> 00:37:54.306 I'm in terminal. 00:37:54.306 --> 00:38:03.067 Where, you know, but like now with Conductor, it's like everybody like went through that first boost and so they're like, uh, yeah, I would like the next hit of dopamine. 00:38:03.067 --> 00:38:03.487 Please. 00:38:03.487 --> 00:38:07.327 Like, and so they, when they switched to Conductor, they're like, everyone's all in. 00:38:07.777 --> 00:38:08.317 Um. 00:38:08.992 --> 00:38:21.021 And again, I went through first, so I figured out like, how do we make sure that like the entire app runs on a different port, you know, like, uh, and that it can run on eight ports at the same time, like eight d different instances can all be spun up. 00:38:21.231 --> 00:38:27.021 And then that, you know, you can run the test at the same time because all the databases are partitioned apart from each other. 00:38:27.081 --> 00:38:36.561 And you can run the main app and you can, you know, seed and like everything is just like completely isolated so that every time you spin up a work instance, it's a brand new, fresh thing, you 00:38:36.697 --> 00:38:36.876 All right. 00:38:36.942 --> 00:38:38.496 Talk, talk

about that a little bit more. 00:38:38.681 --> 00:38:41.016 How, how does that manifest? 00:38:41.016 --> 00:38:55.387 Because one of the things I wanted to ask you about, I've seen you talk about it a few times on Twitter, is just like the parallel agent, or even per, it's not even parallel agent, maybe it is, but it's like parallel processes of the same thing. 00:38:56.061 --> 00:38:56.302 Yeah, be. 00:38:56.302 --> 00:39:09.862 Before you answer John, I just want to add a little bit of what I've learned and see if it's similar to what you're gonna answer, but I've been using the Claude desktop app a lot, one thing I've learned there is that it kind of defaults to a work tree, 00:39:10.581 --> 00:39:10.702 Mm-hmm. 00:39:11.601 --> 00:39:13.121 guess I'm curious if that's what you're using or not. 00:39:13.972 --> 00:39:14.302 Yes. 00:39:14.302 --> 00:39:16.012 Under the hood it's just work trees. 00:39:16.072 --> 00:39:16.342 Yep. 00:39:16.402 --> 00:39:17.481 It's turtles all the way down. 00:39:17.481 --> 00:39:18.711 So, so, yeah. 00:39:18.742 --> 00:39:21.382 So under the hood, uh, conductor makes a work tree. 00:39:21.862 --> 00:39:23.567 It gives each work tree a name. 00:39:24.802 --> 00:39:26.842 Like a city name, like Shanghai or whatever. 00:39:27.081 --> 00:39:28.581 And so that's the unique name for it. 00:39:28.581 --> 00:39:36.291 And then, um, it will rename the branch once you type the first prompt in, you know, so if I say like, build this new feature, it says, okay, this new feature is now the branch name. 00:39:36.652 --> 00:39:38.811 So it'll automatically, it doesn't ask you when you create it. 00:39:38.811 --> 00:39:41.692 It's like, do your prompt, we'll name it for you later, which is really nice. 00:39:41.692 --> 00:39:42.021 It's like. 00:39:42.411 --> 00:39:43.942 Tiny little non friction thing. 00:39:44.422 --> 00:39:46.251 And then, uh, you get the work tree. 00:39:46.431 --> 00:39:52.521 And the first thing you do once that work tree gets created is it if you have a setup script, it will run the setup script. 00:39:52.521 --> 00:40:10.731 And so the setup script is like anything that's get ignored in the main repo, like link it or copy it, whatever your preference is to the workspace, because you're gonna need your dot m file, you're gonna need your key files for rails, credentials, you're gonna need act, you know, you might need active storage, local files. 00:40:10.731 --> 00:40:11.391 You might need like. 00:40:12.442 --> 00:40:13.972 things that are not in the repo. 00:40:14.001 --> 00:40:16.251 'cause the work tree is only gonna get the repo. 00:40:16.612 --> 00:40:20.422 And then, you know, after that it's like, okay, now you're set up and you're good. 00:40:20.422 --> 00:40:25.492 You can do like, bundle, exact rake you can do run, spin up a server, all that kind of stuff. 00:40:25.822 --> 00:40:33.322 Um, and one of the things that it does in there is like, it will, um, I create a database for each, um, you

know, you just add like a suffix. 00:40:34.027 --> 00:40:36.007 Or whatever you wanna call it in your YAML file. 00:40:36.757 --> 00:40:40.447 if that suffix is there, then you know, it'll create new databases for you. 00:40:40.447 --> 00:40:44.286 So the core database might be box out sports product, you know, development. 00:40:44.617 --> 00:40:48.876 Um, but if you, you know, use it with conductor, it will work fine without conductor. 00:40:49.146 --> 00:40:53.226 But if there's a conductor workspace name, then it's like box out development under Shanghai. 00:40:53.706 --> 00:40:55.896 Um, and then, you know, when you archive. 00:40:55.911 --> 00:41:03.112 Like when you merge, it'll archive the workspace, or if you archive it because you decide not to do it, and then that will drop all those things and reverse them. 00:41:03.112 --> 00:41:06.592 So, um, in the words of Missy Elliott, you know, put your, no, I'm just kidding. 00:41:06.862 --> 00:41:11.391 Um, but there's, uh, like I, it just popped in my head. 00:41:11.391 --> 00:41:13.041 It's been a thing with my wife and I lately. 00:41:13.041 --> 00:41:16.672 We're like song words, key, key off songs, and then we start rapping. 00:41:17.092 --> 00:41:17.632 Um. 00:41:18.606 --> 00:41:21.186 So the setup and tear down are the two things you need. 00:41:21.186 --> 00:41:25.597 And then once you have those things working, you have no contention, you have isolation, all that, that's cool. 00:41:25.836 --> 00:41:29.077 Then you can run, you wanna run the server so you can run the server. 00:41:29.077 --> 00:41:33.067 And then what they do is they automatically inject a conductor underscore port environment variable. 00:41:33.126 --> 00:41:35.887 And so then what I do is I just say, cool, I'm gonna use proc file. 00:41:36.842 --> 00:41:40.862 foreman 'cause that's what everything I deploy with uses Heroku Railway, et cetera. 00:41:41.402 --> 00:41:43.711 And so I just spin up a and a proc file. 00:41:44.041 --> 00:41:47.581 Um, I just, uh, the, whatever the script is that starts it. 00:41:47.581 --> 00:41:51.061 So bin dev bin start script server or whatever you want to make your thing. 00:41:51.331 --> 00:41:54.152 It says, Hey, if conductor port is present, set port to that. 00:41:54.152 --> 00:41:54.481 Otherwise. 00:41:55.206 --> 00:41:59.016 Uh, just use port, you know, 3000 or 8,000 or 5,000, whatever you wanna do. 00:41:59.226 --> 00:42:06.996 And so then from there, now boom, you've got multiple instances running and everything will break because everything is based on the original one. 00:42:07.047 --> 00:42:12.266 After that you have to, you know, get that port into the cookies, uh, so that your sessions are separate. 00:42:12.447 --> 00:42:14.831 And then, you know, you gotta get the port into like. 00:42:15.202 --> 00:42:20.722 Action U, you know, URL, generation and Action Mailer, URL, generation and like all these other things. 00:42:20.722 --> 00:42:25.311 But like, if you look on

my site, there's, you know, uh, john imaker.com. 00:42:25.311 --> 00:42:30.902 There's a post about it and it, if you just feed that into Conductor or Claude, it'll figure most of that stuff out. 00:42:31.586 --> 00:42:39.777 Um, and then you run into really weird browser issues because everything runs on local host, and so the, all the cookies get stored in the same place and you hit the max cookie size and then everything barfs. 00:42:39.777 --> 00:42:42.146 So then you have to start deleting your cookies every so often. 00:42:42.146 --> 00:42:54.266 There's everything is like new problems, but that's the general flow for me, and that's what I've like, helped everybody else on the team get going, and then I do things halfway and just get it working and then they make it better. 00:42:54.297 --> 00:42:55.347 You know, Garrett comes in and. 00:42:55.842 --> 00:43:01.811 Adds like four new scripts that are way more resilient and better than what I, you know, hacked together the first time. 00:43:02.262 --> 00:43:03.882 Um, but that's, that's our flow. 00:43:05.172 --> 00:43:05.742 Yeah, that's cool. 00:43:05.742 --> 00:43:07.331 The conductor, I'm not real familiar with. 00:43:07.331 --> 00:43:11.952 I, I've seen you mention it a few times on Twitter, but I hadn't, hadn't looked into it. 00:43:11.952 --> 00:43:13.362 It wasn't familiar with it, so that's. 00:43:14.067 --> 00:43:16.737 Like, is that a paid tool or is that open source? 00:43:17.516 --> 00:43:18.507 First hits free on it. 00:43:18.536 --> 00:43:22.317 Um, it's basically like, um, I don't know what's the best way to describe it. 00:43:22.317 --> 00:43:27.356 Like, I, they're a funded company, so I, I know, I think I have a pretty good idea of like where they're going. 00:43:27.746 --> 00:43:30.086 Um, but right now that Mac app is just free. 00:43:30.237 --> 00:43:34.047 Um, and so, and they, you know, ship, ship nightly on it and stuff. 00:43:34.467 --> 00:43:39.536 It's, when it works, it's, it's as big of an unlock as AI is. 00:43:40.902 --> 00:43:41.501 in general. 00:43:41.501 --> 00:43:47.681 So it's like taking, you know, the, the leap from writing your own code having AI write your code with Opus. 00:43:47.681 --> 00:43:50.112 And that actually is like, good, that leap. 00:43:50.172 --> 00:43:56.652 It's that, that leap on top of it when it works and when it doesn't work, you just feel like an angry old man. 00:43:57.311 --> 00:43:57.672 So. 00:43:57.956 --> 00:44:05.996 And is that, is that leap in the ability to have multiple, you know, isolated environments running Right. 00:44:05.996 --> 00:44:10.737 Because like, I mean that, that otherwise it's just sort of one dimensional, right? 00:44:10.766 --> 00:44:19.976 You're just sort of being able to stack and stack confidently that you're not gonna leak context or leak database or leak, whatever, and. 00:44:20.081 --> 00:44:22.657 Well, I mean, one, one thing that I do right now without conductor. 00:44:23.501 --> 00:44:25.422

Is because of the work trees alone. 00:44:25.422 --> 00:44:31.211 Like I can have Claude Code, at least go write the code, but it's not gonna do all of the things that John said with environments. 00:44:31.211 --> 00:44:32.742 So that, that's a bigger step. 00:44:32.742 --> 00:44:33.942 That's pretty awesome sounding. 00:44:34.751 --> 00:44:34.992 Yeah. 00:44:34.992 --> 00:44:37.842 And it, it is, and it ports to any work tree solution. 00:44:37.842 --> 00:44:39.942 So you can use it with work trunk.dev. 00:44:39.942 --> 00:44:43.572 You can use it with like anybody's homegrown bespoke work tree thing. 00:44:43.572 --> 00:44:52.931 Like you can automatically just like, what I could do is just say like, don't even rely on conductor Jason as a config file to tell conductor what hooks and scripts to run. 00:44:53.262 --> 00:44:56.711 Like, just put it in, like get hooks of when a new work tree is created. 00:44:56.862 --> 00:44:58.572 Run this script, you know? 00:44:58.572 --> 00:45:00.072 And if conductor Port exists, great. 00:45:00.072 --> 00:45:00.641 If it doesn't. 00:45:00.961 --> 00:45:10.172 Then automatically, you know, ha do a consistent hash of the workspace name to, you know, like a port or a port range is what we do. 00:45:10.172 --> 00:45:18.331 So we do like a, a 10 port range that way we have room for like v dev and random other little things you might need to run and stuff like that. 00:45:19.442 --> 00:45:24.302 but like, I, I, I'm saying all this and I, I feel like sometimes people are like, this is magic. 00:45:24.331 --> 00:45:25.786 You, you must be way ahead of me. 00:45:26.547 --> 00:45:28.016 figured this out like a couple weeks ago. 00:45:28.016 --> 00:45:31.317 You know what I, I mean, like, I, I'm not, like, I'm not a, we're all. 00:45:32.472 --> 00:45:34.362 Way behind on everything right now. 00:45:34.362 --> 00:45:37.181 So, um, there's not, like, it's not magic. 00:45:37.181 --> 00:45:45.942 You literally just like download conductor and like try the, like, it'll immediately make, add a repo, it'll make a new workspace for you, and you'll be like, that didn't feel good. 00:45:45.942 --> 00:45:46.871 Why'd you do that for me? 00:45:46.992 --> 00:45:49.871 And then you're, you realize like, oh, that's actually what I wanted. 00:45:49.931 --> 00:45:51.612 I, I did kind of like that. 00:45:51.911 --> 00:45:56.771 And then you start, you know, getting it working and once you can spin up multiple of them, the great thing about it. 00:45:56.771 --> 00:46:09.126 To answer that question, um, looking down, because you're at the bottom of my screen, is, um, the, the great thing is like you end up with, oh, I just got a new honey badger error while I'm, I'm working on these like two things. 00:46:09.336 --> 00:46:15.427 Get a new honey badger error, export is marked down, new workspace, paste it in, go back to the other things, you know, oh, got another one. 00:46:15.427 --> 00:46:16.027 Paste it in. 00:46:16.027 --> 00:46:16.927 Go back to the next thing. 00:46:16.927 --> 00:46:18.697 I got a bug report from support request. 00:46:18.907 --> 00:46:23.586 Copy and paste the chat history, you know, put it in there again, I'm reading it. 00:46:23.586 --> 00:46:26.407 I'm not just like prompt injecting myself, but, um. 00:46:27.657 --> 00:46:34.137 Like, you can just quick scan it and look at it and be like, okay, make a new workspace, work on this while I'm doing other things. 00:46:34.197 --> 00:46:38.186 Um, and so I can stay focused on the things I'm doing, but things are getting done in the background. 00:46:38.186 --> 00:46:42.507 And then at some point you go back and you click on it and you say, oh, okay, I see what's going on. 00:46:42.867 --> 00:46:47.606 Um, and they give you like nice notifications like Mac os it's, it is Mac macOS only right now. 00:46:48.086 --> 00:46:50.907 And you, you know, you get a notification, you click it, you go right to the thing. 00:46:51.206 --> 00:46:52.947 It's, it's a really great experience. 00:46:52.976 --> 00:47:10.166 Um, there's just like a couple of bugs for like, once you go crazy with it and you start having like, I mean, I, I would have, I right now will have, have 30, you know, one workspaces, but like if I had across like 10 or 13 repos, if I, if performance would allow me. 00:47:10.572 --> 00:47:14.472 And I wasn't hitting all these other issues, I would have 50 or a hundred in there. 00:47:14.891 --> 00:47:16.512 Like I would, I would completely go nuts. 00:47:16.512 --> 00:47:19.271 And if it worked on my phone, I would have 200. 00:47:19.271 --> 00:47:23.891 You know, like it's just, I'm limited right now by how good it can perform. 00:47:24.311 --> 00:47:26.291 So that's the thing that's kind of holding me back on it. 00:47:26.291 --> 00:47:26.652 But I 00:47:27.356 --> 00:47:33.717 So today's the first time I've heard this notion of work tree, either one of it sounds like both of you have worked with it. 00:47:33.927 --> 00:47:36.806 Can you explain to me what it is? 00:47:37.092 --> 00:47:37.481 I mean. 00:47:39.717 --> 00:47:43.797 Imagine just like, uh, gi you just say GI work tree, whatever. 00:47:43.856 --> 00:47:50.396 And what it does is it literally says, cool, I've got your whole repo cloned, so I'm just gonna make a new branch over here in this other directory. 00:47:50.637 --> 00:47:52.106 All right, see you later. 00:47:52.527 --> 00:47:53.007 Uh, that's it. 00:47:53.007 --> 00:47:59.157 Like, it, it just, it literally just like, so like conductor uses like home j new maker, you know, conductor. 00:47:59.217 --> 00:48:02.186 And then inside of there would be like the repo like box out sports. 00:48:02.516 --> 00:48:05.007 And then inside of that would be like Shanghai. 00:48:05.547 --> 00:48:05.836 Okay. 00:48:05.922 --> 00:48:09.282 you know, Baghdad or Granger or whatever the city is. 00:48:09.492 --> 00:48:13.032 They, they pick cities and then sometimes you get, they, some of the

cities are rare. 00:48:13.481 --> 00:48:19.722 I know you, you want to know this, but, um, I've collected one of the rare cities and so I feel pretty special about that. 00:48:19.782 --> 00:48:22.242 Um, and then they have a whole map of where you go in the world. 00:48:22.391 --> 00:48:24.012 Lots of cr, like really good 00:48:24.536 --> 00:48:25.106 That's funny. 00:48:25.601 --> 00:48:28.001 a work tree is, you could, you don't have to use a work tree. 00:48:28.001 --> 00:48:30.942 A lot of people will literally just get clone again in another directory. 00:48:31.617 --> 00:48:33.567 I mean, that's the easiest way to think about it. 00:48:33.956 --> 00:48:36.987 It's just another place where you can commit totally separately. 00:48:37.317 --> 00:48:42.447 A branch, you can only have one branch in one repo, so this just gives you N branches. 00:48:42.762 --> 00:48:43.061 Yep. 00:48:44.021 --> 00:48:47.112 Now it makes sense why that can be like portable, right? 00:48:47.112 --> 00:48:51.012 Because that, that's not, and so you have the work tree that handles that part. 00:48:51.012 --> 00:48:57.012 And then conductor, if I'm understanding this correctly, is just the isolating the environment. 00:48:58.367 --> 00:48:58.586 Yep. 00:48:58.661 --> 00:49:09.101 it helps with that and creating the new workspace and then I, and then the isolation setup and tear down and then, you know, command R to run the server and, you know, give you a little button to open it in the browser and that kinda stuff. 00:49:09.101 --> 00:49:18.282 They don't have a browser in it yet, but, there's a ton of other things, maybe, I don't know what you're using Brendan, but like, there's like, um. 00:49:18.327 --> 00:49:23.996 Um, trunk.dev is like a, a command line, only one that's just the work tree and the hooks. 00:49:24.476 --> 00:49:29.126 Um, there's seam which is built on Go lib, ghosty. 00:49:29.126 --> 00:49:32.487 There's dm, which is built on UX and li maybe Lib ghosts. 00:49:32.487 --> 00:49:36.806 No, I think it's just built on T muck, so you can use it in BYOT, bring your own Terminal. 00:49:36.836 --> 00:49:37.317 Terminal. 00:49:37.766 --> 00:49:42.746 Um, but yeah, there's a bunch of different ones that are kind of on top of it that do the same thing. 00:49:43.902 --> 00:49:46.931 Yeah, I'm, I'm just using the Claude desktop app right now myself. 00:49:47.007 --> 00:49:47.186 Nice. 00:49:48.101 --> 00:49:52.782 you use the Claude Code, you know, version of it, 'cause there's also cowork and chat and all that 00:49:53.282 --> 00:49:53.572 Yeah. 00:49:53.967 --> 00:49:56.697 It has a little checkbox that says, do you want to use a work tree? 00:49:56.726 --> 00:49:59.396 So, but that was my first exposure to it. 00:49:59.396 --> 00:50:08.487 'cause I mean, I remember, you know, we LA last year, Ryan, we had, uh, um, I forget, there was a couple people who were kind of asking this question like, how do you have multiple things going? 00:50:08.936 --> 00:50:09.896 And that was my unlock. 00:50:09.896 --> 00:50:11.396 I was like, oh, it's just gonna use a work tree. 00:50:11.396 --> 00:50:11.996 What's a work tree? 00:50:11.996 --> 00:50:13.556 And yeah, just kind of figured it from there. 00:50:14.726 --> 00:50:22.407 And you just ask Claude and Claude tells you, like, and Claude from the CLI has like a dash w and it'll just make a new workspace automatically with a random name. 00:50:22.407 --> 00:50:26.876 Or you can actually like, you know, Claude dash w, my new feature and it'll do that. 00:50:27.237 --> 00:50:31.887 Um, but again, then you need to get hooks to, or you need to manually run the setup and tear down and things like that. 00:50:31.887 --> 00:50:35.036 So it's not perfect gravy like that. 00:50:35.036 --> 00:50:37.166 But conductor is, it's flow. 00:50:37.226 --> 00:50:38.336 I mean it's pure flow. 00:50:38.697 --> 00:50:42.597 You can work on three to five things at once, move 'em all forward. 00:50:43.556 --> 00:50:47.666 And it's pure flow, like you don't feel kicked out of it in the good space. 00:50:47.726 --> 00:50:50.902 Um, when you start getting to 10 workspaces and up. 00:50:51.942 --> 00:50:53.291 when it starts to get really painful. 00:50:53.291 --> 00:51:08.532 'cause they haven't solved, uh, some problems with, uh, performance and with, uh, rate limiting on GitHub everything goes, I mean, it goes, dude, I, it like scrambles your brain 'cause things are just bouncing around in the sidebar instead of saying consistent because. 00:51:08.911 --> 00:51:09.842 It hit the rate limit. 00:51:09.842 --> 00:51:15.811 And so it can't tell if there's a, a PR for this branch and they don't store that in SQL Light locally, like they store everything else. 00:51:16.021 --> 00:51:21.692 And so then gonna, uh, again, I'm not gonna go into it right now, but there, there you can run into pain. 00:51:21.692 --> 00:51:23.192 And if you wanna know the pain, I'll tell you later. 00:51:23.192 --> 00:51:23.581 So 00:51:23.592 --> 00:51:23.952 Yep. 00:51:24.251 --> 00:51:32.411 Well, let, let us, uh, or at least let me play with some of the stuff you've already said, and then when I hit the pain, we'll have you back on a third time to talk about the pain. 00:51:32.922 --> 00:51:33.072 Um. 00:51:33.242 --> 00:51:35.101 yeah, hopefully it'll be gone by then. 00:51:35.231 --> 00:51:35.592 Yeah. 00:51:36.041 --> 00:51:41.891 How, how much did you have to change the actual apps in order to get this to work? 00:51:41.891 --> 00:51:42.101 Right. 00:51:42.101 --> 00:51:44.621 Was there, was there anything that you had to change? 00:51:45.612 --> 00:51:50.442 You know, like I, I know in our app we, we have, we use a, a custom port already, 00:51:50.922 --> 00:51:51.342 Mm-hmm. 00:51:51.461 --> 00:51:58.541 and I'm already thinking like, all right, is that gonna be a problem with, you know, mapping the ports for the different workspaces? 00:51:58.541 --> 00:51:58.782 Right. 00:51:58.782 -->

00:52:02.202 But was there anything that you ran into that way, or did it, was it mostly plug and play? 00:52:03.436 --> 00:52:16.632 It is, honestly, it's very easy, like I would say on, you know, we've got, I'm on like four or five, you know, big rails apps, and I would say it's fewer than a hundred lines of code. 00:52:16.661 --> 00:52:19.617 It's typically like five or 10 lines of app code and then a bunch of scripts. 00:52:20.427 --> 00:52:20.757 Yeah. 00:52:20.942 --> 00:52:23.097 end up being the longest part of it, honestly. 00:52:23.306 --> 00:52:24.416 And they're the easiest part. 00:52:24.416 --> 00:52:25.376 'cause Claude just writes 'em, 00:52:25.737 --> 00:52:26.007 Right. 00:52:26.097 --> 00:52:28.347 you know, there's no for that part. 00:52:28.347 --> 00:52:28.947 That's, I don't know. 00:52:28.947 --> 00:52:36.297 Is that, do you feel like that too or, um, for the, or I guess you're using the Claude work tree stuff, so I guess it's a little different. 00:52:36.641 --> 00:52:37.331 yet, but 00:52:37.797 --> 00:52:38.067 Okay. 00:52:38.262 --> 00:52:39.161 that sounds, 00:52:39.956 --> 00:52:45.806 But I feel like you can kind of TDD this, right With, with Claude is like, all right, you know, you do the thing, it doesn't work. 00:52:45.806 --> 00:52:46.947 You'd be like, here's the problem. 00:52:46.947 --> 00:52:49.976 Go write the script to fix the missing environment variables. 00:52:49.976 --> 00:52:50.606 Go write the 00:52:50.697 --> 00:52:51.086 Yep. 00:52:51.266 --> 00:52:53.126 script to do X, Y, Z. 00:52:53.126 --> 00:52:53.367 Right? 00:52:53.367 --> 00:53:06.567 So, I mean, to that extent, I imagine it wouldn't be that difficult, but I have a feeling, at least for one of our apps, I'm gonna have to change application code in order to make it compatible with that, you know, maybe. 00:53:07.016 --> 00:53:11.126 I mis fundamentally misunderstanding how the port mapping stuff works. 00:53:11.126 --> 00:53:14.577 But that would be my only hesitation. 00:53:14.577 --> 00:53:15.177 I'm sure Claude. 00:53:15.237 --> 00:53:16.677 I'm sure Claude can fix it too. 00:53:16.677 --> 00:53:17.606 So it's like whatever. 00:53:17.606 --> 00:53:17.907 But. 00:53:18.021 --> 00:53:18.342 Yeah. 00:53:18.641 --> 00:53:18.972 Yep. 00:53:19.181 --> 00:53:20.021 Definitely can. 00:53:20.021 --> 00:53:29.172 And that's, I literally all the original, like what I started doing is just making like a bin conductor dash setup script and conductor dash tear down or archive. 00:53:29.652 --> 00:53:34.842 Um, and so like, and then we eventually did like a conductor run, I think as well. 00:53:34.871 --> 00:53:37.422 Like before it was like, you know, bin dev or whatever. 00:53:37.782 --> 00:53:39.161 Um, but once in a while it's like. 00:53:40.172 --> 00:53:41.672 I dunno, they can be the same scripts. 00:53:41.672 --> 00:53:47.641 I mean, you could literally just make it so that like bend dev when you run it, like it just, you know, knows how to do it or script set up. 00:53:47.641 --> 00:53:49.922 Just knows if conductor's there, do some different things. 00:53:49.922 --> 00:53:56.222 Like, that's basically what we're doing is just like, if conductor's there do some different things um, you're good to go. 00:53:56.342 --> 00:53:58.652 Uh, it's, and it's really not a lot of things. 00:53:58.711 --> 00:54:02.702 Uh, I mean, the first time can be a little painful. 00:54:02.702 --> 00:54:03.961 It can take a couple hours. 00:54:04.391 --> 00:54:08.592 Um, if you use the article I wrote, that'll make it less. 00:54:09.431 --> 00:54:16.271 but you, you know, there's, every app has weird little dumb things that it does that, you know, I probably haven't done the that dumb thing yet. 00:54:16.271 --> 00:54:21.431 And so those will be the things that you'll, you'll start using it and you'll be like, why doesn't this work? 00:54:21.436 --> 00:54:23.291 Oh, yes. 00:54:23.291 --> 00:54:23.862 And you know, 00:54:23.952 --> 00:54:24.282 Yeah, 00:54:24.402 --> 00:54:24.581 that. 00:54:25.061 --> 00:54:30.371 well, we, we have a, a web builder that allows you to host a website on a custom domain. 00:54:30.371 --> 00:54:37.692 And that always, you know, it doesn't matter whether it's like, you know, doing docker container or whatever, like, that's always something you have to deal with no matter what. 00:54:37.692 --> 00:54:37.842 Right. 00:54:37.842 --> 00:54:40.871 Because like this, you just have to spin it up on its own port. 00:54:40.871 --> 00:54:41.202 Right. 00:54:41.202 --> 00:54:44.981 And, and I'm sure that's easy to do, but you have to write the script to do it. 00:54:45.507 --> 00:54:45.836 I got it. 00:54:45.836 --> 00:54:46.887 Fix for that now too though. 00:54:46.887 --> 00:54:47.277 'cause a 00:54:47.291 --> 00:54:47.592 Okay. 00:54:47.757 --> 00:54:48.657 does the same thing. 00:54:48.806 --> 00:54:50.456 And I was like, okay, what? 00:54:50.456 --> 00:54:51.237 How do I solve this? 00:54:51.237 --> 00:54:53.367 And I ended up using Caddy and it's awesome. 00:54:53.532 --> 00:54:53.891 Okay. 00:54:54.431 --> 00:54:58.856 I, I've seen Chris talk about that on Go Rails, uh, or, uh, remote Ruby rather. 00:54:59.117 --> 00:54:59.336 Um, 00:54:59.652 --> 00:55:00.552 It's so good. 00:55:00.581 --> 00:55:01.992 You just put it in your proc file. 00:55:01.992 --> 00:55:04.842 Again, like another thing that spins up when you start the app 00:55:04.976 --> 00:55:05.266 okay. 00:55:05.322 --> 00:55:12.791 then you have a caddy file and then you can just tell at Star Fireside, local host goes here, you know, and then you get HT PS. 00:55:12.791 --> 00:55:13.722 So you can test that. 00:55:14.141 --> 00:55:16.152 Um, you can do custom domains. 00:55:16.181 --> 00:55:17.802 Um, you can do anything you want. 00:55:17.802 --> 00:55:20.172 So you could have like my custom domain, local host. 00:55:20.902 --> 00:55:25.072 different than like, you know, food bar fireside, local host and all that.

00:55:25.342 --> 00:55:33.411 So we ended up, I think I put caddy in all of our apps now just so we'd have http s 'cause it's so lightweight and, and we just run each one. 00:55:33.681 --> 00:55:38.181 You can run it globally and just do API requests to like mod the fi, the config. 00:55:38.961 --> 00:55:40.851 we just run it in the pro profile of each one. 00:55:40.851 --> 00:55:46.942 I just prefer like everything is either running or it's not running for this app that it needs in one isolated place. 00:55:47.302 --> 00:55:49.192 I don't like global stuff'cause then you get weird. 00:55:49.842 --> 00:55:52.331 Global state where something didn't clean up. 00:55:52.331 --> 00:55:52.601 Right. 00:55:52.601 --> 00:55:53.831 And now everything's broken. 00:55:53.831 --> 00:55:59.681 So, but yeah, caddy Caddy definitely solved that for it's brew installed caddy and tell Claude to do it and it's 00:55:59.847 --> 00:56:00.086 Yep. 00:56:00.132 --> 00:56:01.032 I mean, it's really cool. 00:56:01.887 --> 00:56:02.726 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:56:02.726 --> 00:56:13.677 I've been wanting to do something like for, for whatever one of our apps uses, uh, lvh.me as the local development domain, which I've been wanting to get rid of for a long time. 00:56:13.706 --> 00:56:15.896 'cause it's like now local hosts can do SSL. 00:56:16.137 --> 00:56:16.467 Right. 00:56:16.467 --> 00:56:17.246 So it's. 00:56:18.266 --> 00:56:25.286 But yeah, CA Caddy will help with the custom domain thing, and then I can stop having to manually add everything to a host file in order to 00:56:25.722 --> 00:56:26.141 Yep. 00:56:26.336 --> 00:56:29.577 view, uh, the page, right, which, 00:56:29.831 --> 00:56:35.291 I was just doing that until like a month ago and then I finally decided to try Caddy and I was like, oh, life is so 00:56:35.402 --> 00:56:35.692 yeah. 00:56:36.101 --> 00:56:42.402 And even just like then cores is an issue, so then you gotta star any port and cores and there's, yeah, but 00:56:43.257 --> 00:56:44.456 Oh, that's a good, that's a good tip. 00:56:44.456 --> 00:56:45.536 I'll have to look into that one. 00:56:45.657 --> 00:56:58.407 'cause, uh, it is not so bad when it's just my, you know, local development, but then you had to deal with like, uh, CI and GitHub actions and it's like, all right, well now I have to like, spin up a specific thing just for testing and that feels wrong anyway. 00:56:59.246 --> 00:56:59.447 Yeah. 00:57:01.271 --> 00:57:02.771 Well, maybe this is a good place to wrap up. 00:57:02.771 --> 00:57:04.541 I wanna respect your time, John. 00:57:04.541 --> 00:57:05.862 It's been great chatting with you. 00:57:05.952 --> 00:57:09.612 But, uh, anything else you wanna add before we, uh, sign off here? 00:57:10.842 --> 00:57:16.422 No, I mean the, I guess the only thing I would add is everyone who thinks that the, that all of our jobs are gonna be gone. 00:57:16.481 --> 00:57:17.952 Uh, like look at the jobs report. 00:57:17.952 --> 00:57:27.521 I said I just saw some, I dunno if they're true or not, but I saw some jobs reports that showed that like software engineering is like the only thing that's like going up kind of, it's like up four point half percent month over month or something. 00:57:27.521 --> 00:57:28.692 And I was like, that's wild. 00:57:28.692 --> 00:57:30.702 I think everybody's nuts for it right now. 00:57:30.702 --> 00:57:34.452 Now maybe that's just because everyone's like, well now we can do even more. 00:57:34.452 --> 00:57:35.291 And so they're getting. 00:57:35.461 --> 00:57:41.791 Bullish or they see that there is an arbitrage over the next six to 12 months before everybody picks up on this good stuff. 00:57:42.271 --> 00:57:45.092 Um, I mean, that's the way I'm looking at it, but yeah, I'm not sure. 00:57:45.092 --> 00:57:47.641 So I guess try to stay positive about it. 00:57:47.641 --> 00:57:48.931 Definitely learn. 00:57:49.081 --> 00:57:52.561 Don't get behind 'cause that's probably the worst, worst place. 00:57:52.592 --> 00:57:53.012 Um, so. 00:57:54.222 --> 00:57:55.512 Yeah, definitely agree with that. 00:57:56.561 --> 00:57:57.072 All right, cool. 00:57:57.072 --> 00:58:04.782 Well, we will link to, you know, conductor and some of these other things we talked about in the show notes, um, and your Twitter or anything anywhere else you want to share. 00:58:05.606 --> 00:58:06.597 No, doesn't, that's fine. 00:58:07.322 --> 00:58:07.887 All right, cool. 00:58:12.230 --> 00:58:12.409 Yeah. 00:58:12.409 --> 00:58:12.800 Thank you.