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You're listening to Quorum Radio.
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Can I make a little digression into nutrition Scientology and
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David Miscavige?
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Oh, yeah, sure.
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Go ahead.
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Tell us about that.
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Well, I had a good number of meetings with David
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Miscavige in various parts of the world, actually. Australia and
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here in the U.S. And we had private meetings in L.A.,
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I went out to L.A. after I had done some
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freelance work for them and actually served for a while
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as executive editor of their magazine. I was trying.
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How long?
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For about two and a half years, two years.
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What's that in the publication?
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It's called Freedom Magazine. And Freedom Magazine had an interesting history.
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I mean, it had actually done some. pretty incredible investigative
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work over the course of its lifetime. And it was
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run by journalists. One journalist who had worked for Jack
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Anderson was a longtime editor of Freedom Magazine. And Freedom
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Magazine had done some exposés on Central Intelligence Agency and
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a lot of things that were not related directly to
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the church. But later on, the magazine was turned more
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into a house organ and basically arguments about the church
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and promotion of the church activities. And I wanted to
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take it more back into the investigative direction. We never
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really got there, but we did a few investigative pieces
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that were fairly good. But the course of events, I
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met people that were, I met the executive trustee of L.
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Ron Hubbard's estate who had traveled with Hubbard for a
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good part of Hubbard's tenure as head of the Church
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of Scientology.
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What was his name? The... Not much on the spot.
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You know, you both got to get this out.
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Yeah.
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Anyway, it'll come to me in a second. The Norman Starkey,
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what's his name?
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Norman Starkey.
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Norman Starkey.
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I mean, so this is like, you're not.
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A member of the church, are you?
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No, no, no.
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I'm a casual Episcopalian.
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Okay. So, you know, I mean, so many people left it.
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The Church of Scientology is talking about people are kept
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in the hole. They're basically treated like garbage. David Miscavige
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is extremely violent and, you know, assaults people like at
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a certain frequency.
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And people just.
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Basically have a lot of tales of abuse, tales of escape.
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You know, it doesn't seem like a An institution that would,
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you know, feel comfortable with using the word freedom in
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its flagship magazine title, you know.
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Right.
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Right.
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And so that is a perception that has been pretty
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broadly established across the American culture, that Scientology is an
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organization that is a cult and it does bad things
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to people, et cetera. But, you know, one thing that
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my experience has taught me is that the public perception
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isn't always perfect. necessarily accurate. But a lot of reporters
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are willing to go along with that public perception from
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the outset. My approach has been, I want to know
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whether that's true or not. And I applied the same
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thing to when I was covering prisons. Public officials in
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the state of Indiana would tell you that there was
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never a human rights violation or the drug traffic was
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bad or they were providing good rehabilitation services for people
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in prison. But when I got in there, you know,
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it didn't look like that. And the story I heard
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about Scientology when I got inside, it didn't look like that.
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So I was given the opportunity to ask any question
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I wanted, to go anywhere I wanted, and they would
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provide documents to me to back up their arguments. And
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that was my deal. If I ask a question, I
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want an answer, and I want it backed up. And
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Load full transcript
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they did that over and over again.
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So I toured that. What's that?
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I toured the gold facility where the trailers were supposed
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to be, where people were held hostage and were brutalized
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and assaulted, etc. I didn't see anything like that. I
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talked to hundreds of people in Scientology about what their
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attitude was about being a part of it or not
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being a part of it. One of the arguments that
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was made about Scientology was that people couldn't leave and
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they had to escape. A lot of those stories were,
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I think, created out of whole cloth because I never
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saw anybody held hostage. You could walk out on the
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street any time you wanted to. You could have a
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cell phone if you wanted.
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Good. Right.
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But, I mean, did they have a minder that was
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like kind of a guide that would accompany you as
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you went from place to place or what?
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Well, a good part of the time. But I was,
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you know, I was. I went to Hungary. I toured
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the church. I hung out with local members. I moved
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through situations there and elsewhere. There was not someone that
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was constantly at my shoulder, although on one occasion when
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I was in England at the manor there, the headquarters,
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I had a couple of young people with me, and
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I They went one direction, I went another, and one
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of them remarked, oh, my God, we've left a reporter
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loose on the grounds. But, you know, I pretty much
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had open access to most anything I wanted to see,
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and that was instructive. I met people across the country,
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people that were believers. You know, people can believe what
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they want, and I endorse the idea of religious freedom
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to people. people making up their own minds. But there
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is a lot of distortion about the history of the
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Catholic Church. It doesn't mean, the Catholic Church, the Church
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of Scientology, and the Catholic Church, but it doesn't mean
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that all of those stories are untrue or from the
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perspective of the person involved, that there were not situations
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that were bad. But I never saw any indication of
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violence or talked to anyone that showed any indication of
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violence except in circumstances involving individuals who were making those
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accusations on occasions had engaged themselves in.
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So, okay, at any point, did you talk to ex-members
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of the church?
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I did.
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Yeah, a good number of ex-members. Yeah. And I reviewed their,
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the documentations and things, films. I spent a lot of
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time reviewing those kinds of things.
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That's right.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So I want to ask you a question about David Miscavige.
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He's done like one interview or maybe he's done more interviews.
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That we just don't know about.
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Did, besides that interview I think he did with Ted
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Koppel and oh gosh, I was like, what was it?
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1994 is a long time ago.
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A long time ago.
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And see, why doesn't he do interviews? I mean, he's, he's,
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he's the head of the church. He's, you know, obviously
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the church of Scientology wants new members.
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Um, You would think that that guy would be, you know,
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get as much exposure as possible.
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Why doesn't he?
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I think maybe the history with the media is part
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of one of the reasons. And, you know, I think
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what a lot of people don't know about Scientology is
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the very difficult road they had to establishing themselves in
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various countries around the world and the kinds of things
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that were done about Scientology where they were treated like
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a call in Germany, in England, in Australia, other places.
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At one time in Australia, if you possess Scientology materials,
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it could lead to your arrest or your children being
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taken away from you or your children not
being allowed
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to attend public schools. In England, they restricted people's ability
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who were members of the church to fly.
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In and out of the country.
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Then there have been a lot of repression of the
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church and the church's ideas.
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So, you know, the- I mean, they didn't, I'm sorry,
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go ahead.
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I was just gonna say that, you.
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Know, the attitude that's been long expressed toward the church,
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I think, is part of the reluctance of Miscavige to
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come out and do those kinds of interviews. In the
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interview he did with Ted Koppel, actually, I thought he
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did a fairly good job of.
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Actually, yeah, I will say this. I think he acquitted
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himself very, very well. Probably spent lots of time preparing
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for it. But, you know, I think it's an important factor,
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let's say, an important consideration in this whole treatment of
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Scientology that they supposedly infiltrated the government at many levels, right?
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They did. They did infiltrate the government.
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And the CIA as well, right?
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But when you go back into the story of what
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actually happened there, which probably most people don't know, is
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that there was something called the Guardian's Office, which in
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the wake of all of the attacks on the church
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was developed by L. Ron Hubbard's wife to protect the church.
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But it became something of a franchise for her. And
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she was the person essentially behind putting employees into the IRS,
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the FBI, other agencies where they could gather documents. to
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show that the government was improperly attacking the church. And
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of course, they had the big IRS case going on forever.
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And so they did infiltrate. They were discovered. They were prosecuted.
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And people actually went to jail over that. But the
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guardian's office then later was disbanded, and it was disbanded
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by Miscavige because of those excesses and that abuse. And
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he is the one that launched the negotiations with the
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IRS that lasted for a couple of years and resulted
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in trainloads of documents from the Church of Scientology being
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turned over to the IRS, something that you won't really
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read about in Lawrence Wright's book about Scientology because he
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took it off as a point of view that the
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Church was so vigorously threatening to sue the IRS that
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they couldn't keep up with all the lawsuits, which is
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an argument that may sound good to the people not
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well-informed about how these kind of court cases work, but
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that wasn't what happened. They turned over documents that included,
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they showed me a piece of paper with some loose
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coins taped to the piece of paper to account for
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a few cents of missing money.
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David Miscavige.
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I understand you met him several times.
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I had numerous conversations with him. I had meetings with
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him to discuss matters about the church with other individuals,
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conversations about their magazine and what it was supposed to
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be and what it was supposed to do. I was
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with him in the back room of.
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Church in Detroit when he was getting ready for his presentations.
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I was there with him in Australia when they were
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opening their new church. We had a lot of conversations.
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They weren't necessarily all one-on-one, but we talked about issues
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and things that were raised and the negativity toward the
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church and how that was perceived inside and what their
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argument was that contrasted that. And not just David Miscavige,
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but the attorneys for the church and the upper-level people
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that were there that were engaged in the day-to-day. And
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also the people that drove celebrities back and forth. I
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got to know them well.
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So these were like in-person meetings or on the phone
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or what?
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No, most always in person.
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What is he like?
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He's a very personable individual. You know, I was in England,
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and I was allowed into a private meeting with some
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local individuals in East Grinstead. And that local community has
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been supported by the Church of Scientology since Hubbard founded
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his organization there and was part of that community in
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East Grinstead. And he had a conversation. He went to
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school there. He had a conversation with his former coach
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who had become mayor of East Grinstead. And, you know,
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he is personable. He's warm. He draws people to him.
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And at the same time, when it comes to the church,
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he can be very abrupt. And I can see how
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in some cases people... might suggest that he could have
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an aggressive response. But I don't see that. I never
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saw it in my conversations with him. I did see
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him on a couple of occasions talk to people directly
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about what they had done and should have done instead.
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But nothing I hadn't ever seen in a newsroom. And
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certainly more mild, perhaps, you know.
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Sure.
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So when was the last time you were in touch
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with him? Is this something that goes back on a
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couple of years, months?
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Yeah, it goes back a while.
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This morning, decades ago?
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It was, I think, when I finished up the book
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in 2021, 2022 was the last time I actually was
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there with people from the organization in LA.
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So Tom Cruise, that was somebody, of course, he's an
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important person in the church. Did you ever have the
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opportunity to meet with him, deal with him?
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I never did. I was in the same room with
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him once. I never actually got to talk to him. But,
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you know, I think there's a widely distorted picture of
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his place within the church. He's a member. He supports it.
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He believes in the ideas. He's a friend of Miscavige's.
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but celebrities are not part of the governing body of
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the
church. They don't participate in that way. And they support,
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they encourage others, they endorse those parts of the philosophy
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that they like, but they don't make decisions on the
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day-to-day operations of the church.
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Is it, you know, some people will say Scientology is growing, stagnating,
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treading water. What are your thoughts about how big it
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is as an institution regarding members?
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I know that the church has put a lot of
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effort into growth around the world. And critics say, well,
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they're opening churches, but there's nobody in them. Well, there
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are quite a few people in them when I went
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to visit them. So, I don't know. the accuracy of that.
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I'm not in touch with various congregants, but I do
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know that when they've opened churches, they've done so in
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places where it may be difficult for them. They realize
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that and they address it as they go. They use
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the systems that everyone else uses. They lobby for their
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right to be and they're fairly sophisticated at it. They
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use attorneys and others with solid credentials, and they're not
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blindly going along making mistakes, at least in my perception,
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or what I learned from the church.
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So they've got still....
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Lots of people in government that, let's say, are allies
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of Scientology still? Or do you think that chapter is
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kind of waned?
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I think, well, I think it was an isolated thing.
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It was an effort by the church to fight back.
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They were going to find out what the government knew
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and why they were on the enemies' lists, and they
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considered it suppression. So they did what they did, violated
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the law, held accountable for it, and that led Those efforts,
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I think, were cleaned up. I don't think they do
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those sorts of things now. And I think when that happened,
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I think it was isolated to some individuals for whatever
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their enthusiasm was for protecting the church. They overstepped their bounds.
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Yeah, right.
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Right. So then Shelly Miscavige, did she get together with
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you and David over.
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Shrimp and champagne or that never happened?
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Who?
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Shelly Miscavige. I never met her. I was doing this tongue-in-cheek,
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that part.
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Yeah, well, you're a guy who writes limericks.
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Yeah, exactly.
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They say the neon lights are bright on Broadway.
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On Broadway.
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They say there's always magic in the air.
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On Broadway.
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But when you're walking down the street and you ain't
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had it. They say the girls are something else on Broadway,
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but looking at them just so.
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Make some time.
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When all you got is one thin dime and one
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thin dime won't even shine your.
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Shoes on Broadway they say that I won't.
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Last too long on Broadway.
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On Broadway I'll.
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Catch a greyhound bus for home they all And.
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I won't pretend They get lost, I know they are
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Cause I can play this here guitar And I won't
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pretend I'm a star On Broadway On Broadway.
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I know they are, cause I can play this here guitar,
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and I won't pretend.
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I'm a star on Broadway.
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Everybody, everybody's gonna know me.