บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Dan Luzadder -Complete Interview

72 00:05:42.730 --> 00:05:45.250 police beat. And the only thing I'd ever been to 73 00:05:45.300 --> 00:05:49.600 were church socials and, and, uh, and fish fries, you know, 74 00:05:49.620 --> 00:05:51.779 and that was my, my knowledge of the world. And 75 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.199 within days I was out on the police beat chasing 76 00:05:55.259 --> 00:06:00.120 down cops and walking into crime scenes, seeing, seeing, uh, uh, uh, 77 00:06:00.209 --> 00:06:04.089 corpses in awkward repose and, and, uh, I really got 78 00:06:04.149 --> 00:06:07.930 excited about color for my stories, and I just kept 79 00:06:08.189 --> 00:06:13.329 after that same kind of attitude and chasing stories my 80 00:06:13.350 --> 00:06:13.850 whole career. 81 00:06:14.350 --> 00:06:16.800 What a trial by fire. 82 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:18.920 What year did you begin this? You don't have to 83 00:06:18.939 --> 00:06:21.120 tell when you were born, but when did you begin 84 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:22.819 your work? I was writing under byline in 1969, and 85 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:23.430 I kept at it. 86 00:06:23.459 --> 00:06:33.149 I'm still doing it. Amazing. 87 00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:35.389 So can I ask you like a very pushy New 88 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:36.620 York question? Sure. 89 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:38.939 How much were they paying you in the good old days? 90 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:42.259 I don't know, but gas was 28 cents a gallon. 91 00:06:42.779 --> 00:06:45.120 So whatever they were paying, at. 92 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:46.180 Least get the tank full. 93 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:49.300 And maybe, you know, and maybe a little bit more 94 00:06:49.339 --> 00:06:51.730 for some, you know, bacon and eggs in the morning. 95 00:06:51.769 --> 00:06:53.209 I don't know. I mean, would you be able to 96 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:55.750 make ends meet? What did you do to make ends meet, man? 97 00:06:56.069 --> 00:07:00.009 Hey, shortly thereafter, I was a father and I was 98 00:07:00.310 --> 00:07:03.269 supporting a family with that. tiny little income, but I 99 00:07:03.329 --> 00:07:06.050 did a little freelance on the side and I also 100 00:07:06.069 --> 00:07:06.870 did some carpentry. 101 00:07:07.350 --> 00:07:08.370 I went to everything. 102 00:07:08.389 --> 00:07:12.829 I had a city editor. He was an ex-CIA agent 103 00:07:12.910 --> 00:07:16.990 and he was a gaunt and severe individual, but he 104 00:07:17.029 --> 00:07:19.970 really loved hardcore reporting. And so, you know, I would 105 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:21.629 be out on the street and I would call him 106 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.139 and he'd say, go do this, go down to the basement, 107 00:07:25.180 --> 00:07:29.550 the sub-basement of the city hall and And those perpetrators 108 00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:31.310 that you were chasing will be down there in a 109 00:07:31.350 --> 00:07:32.009 holding cell. 110 00:07:32.029 --> 00:07:33.810 You can interview them. They'll think you're a cop. 111 00:07:34.509 --> 00:07:36.600 So, you know, it was that kind of advice and 112 00:07:36.660 --> 00:07:40.240 that kind of encouragement that got me started doing wild 113 00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:41.519 kind of investigations. 114 00:07:41.860 --> 00:07:45.800 What those investigations were the most intense in your opinion 115 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:47.100 and the most productive ones for you? 116 00:07:47.220 --> 00:07:48.000 There have been several. 117 00:07:48.019 --> 00:07:54.189 You know, one story that I've always liked was one 118 00:07:54.230 --> 00:07:57.709 I did on Deadline. when I was working for the 119 00:07:57.750 --> 00:08:00.290 Indianapolis star on the investigative team. And I got a 120 00:08:00.310 --> 00:08:03.529 call one afternoon from the, from the number two guy 121 00:08:03.589 --> 00:08:05.800 in the department of correction. And he said that they 122 00:08:05.829 --> 00:08:09.000 had a hostage situation going on on death row. 123 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:12.120 And I was, and I was. 124 00:08:12.019 --> 00:08:14.620 The only guy that the, that the hostage takers would 125 00:08:14.660 --> 00:08:19.000 talk to because I'd written about prisons and done prison 126 00:08:19.019 --> 00:08:23.620 corruption stories, whatever. And so the, The guy says, well, 127 00:08:23.660 --> 00:08:26.019 can you have the newspaper's helicopter fly you up to 128 00:08:26.100 --> 00:08:31.269 Michigan City State Prison to go in and do some negotiating? 129 00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:34.509 And I said, well, they don't have a helicopter. They said, well, 130 00:08:34.529 --> 00:08:37.370 the state police helicopter is busy. So they sent a 131 00:08:37.409 --> 00:08:39.799 squad car and they did signal 10 all the way 132 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:41.960 from Indianapolis to Michigan City. 133 00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:45.049 It's sort of like respecting the speed limit, you know, 134 00:08:45.070 --> 00:08:46.070 how fast you could be out. 135 00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:47.070 We definitely did. 136 00:08:47.129 --> 00:08:49.789 Lights and sirens all the way. But about four hours 137 00:08:49.850 --> 00:08:53.250 of negotiation with Ray Wallace, a guy on death row 138 00:08:53.289 --> 00:08:58.139 who orchestrated the hostage taking. And we spent that time 139 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:03.000 talking about things that had gone on in death row. 140 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:04.740 And he wanted me to come back and write about 141 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:08.710 the conditions there. I said that I would try to 142 00:09:08.769 --> 00:09:11.289 do that. But we got all the hostages out. I 143 00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:13.990 still had 15 minutes before deadline, so I made the 144 00:09:14.029 --> 00:09:17.409 Bulldog edition and bannered the top of the front page 145 00:09:17.460 --> 00:09:19.440 of the Indianapolis Star that day. And I was always 146 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:21.259 really proud of the fact that we got the story 147 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:25.960 into rewrite

before the last deadline. There's a corollary to 148 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:28.159 that story that I used to tell in journalism class. 149 00:09:28.179 --> 00:09:31.700 That's when I taught part-time. When I was talking to 150 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.500 Ray Wallace during the middle of the night, I said, Ray, 151 00:09:34.860 --> 00:09:36.830 you know, what got you in here? And he told 152 00:09:36.870 --> 00:09:40.419 me he had done a home invasion and then he 153 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:44.139 had killed a family of four, the mother, the father, 154 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.379 and then the two children. And I asked him, Ray, 155 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:49.820 I said, you know, why would you kill the two kids? 156 00:09:49.899 --> 00:09:52.230 He said, I didn't want them to grow up without parents. 157 00:09:53.409 --> 00:09:55.950 You know, that hit me really hard because I was 158 00:09:56.009 --> 00:09:58.970 a parent and I thought about that a lot. And 159 00:09:58.990 --> 00:10:00.700 I thought about it when I was supposed to go 160 00:10:00.740 --> 00:10:04.360 back and do more reporting on death row, and I 161 00:10:04.419 --> 00:10:06.100 just put it off and put it off and didn't 162 00:10:06.139 --> 00:10:08.320 go back. And so one day I got a call 163 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:12.440 from a juvenile corrections guard who told me about the 164 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:17.279 Indiana Boys School and abuses that were going on in 165 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:19.690 the school. And I knew some people in the prison 166 00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:22.669 system that got me access to records. And they put 167 00:10:22.710 --> 00:10:25.200 me in a room with tons of records of the 168 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:27.440 boys' school. And I was going through the files, and 169 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:29.080 I found the file for Ray Wallace. 170 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:33.620 And Ray Wallace— The same guy was on death row. 171 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:37.320 And he'd been brutalized there. But that wasn't the most 172 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.950 interesting thing. His roommate was Charles Manson. At the Indiana 173 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:44.230 Boy School, and I discovered that, and so I sent 174 00:10:44.309 --> 00:10:46.769 Ray a note at the prison, and I said, Ray, 175 00:10:46.789 --> 00:10:50.009 I want to talk to you about the Boy School 176 00:10:50.029 --> 00:10:53.149 and Charles Manson, and he sent me back a two-word reply. 177 00:10:54.769 --> 00:10:58.769 And the first word started with F, because I hadn't 178 00:10:58.809 --> 00:11:00.429 gone back and. 179 00:11:00.370 --> 00:11:02.889 Kept my pride. He felt betrayed a little bit. 180 00:11:02.909 --> 00:11:04.860 He wouldn't talk to me, and I lost him. 181 00:11:04.899 --> 00:11:08.360 You know, I mean, how many, so you were working 182 00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:11.120 for that Indianapolis paper, right? 183 00:11:11.580 --> 00:11:12.980 Right, the start. 184 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:17.470 How many miles away was that to the prison? About 100. 185 00:11:17.450 --> 00:11:21.409 That's not neat. I mean, you know, it's hard, man. 186 00:11:21.450 --> 00:11:22.879 You probably wanted to, but.... 187 00:11:24.409 --> 00:11:27.440 Well, I did, and I'd written a lot about the 188 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:30.200 prison system. I was the only reporter, I think, in 189 00:11:30.259 --> 00:11:34.600 Indiana that was ever allowed inside Pendleton Reformatory during a riot. 190 00:11:35.740 --> 00:11:39.830 And I went through a cell house crawling underneath smoke, 191 00:11:40.330 --> 00:11:43.149 talking to inmates that were holed up in their cells, 192 00:11:43.789 --> 00:11:46.970 you know, eating sack lunches and then throwing them over 193 00:11:47.009 --> 00:11:49.730 the side so the rats could run around and finish 194 00:11:49.830 --> 00:11:51.149 up smoke-filled cells. 195 00:11:51.169 --> 00:11:54.960 Well, I mean, concerned about local pets, I guess. 196 00:11:55.299 --> 00:12:00.080 That's right. That's right. Gosh, amazing. I mean, I mean, 197 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:01.320 what a story. 198 00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:03.419 Just not to spend too much time on that because 199 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:04.919 there's not the, you gotta go to the big story 200 00:12:04.940 --> 00:12:07.059 of the book itself. Yeah. The fucking time of the 201 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:11.340 CIA and Manchurian journalists. Oh, What else do you remember 202 00:12:11.379 --> 00:12:13.860 about that hostage situation? That is so fascinating. I just 203 00:12:13.899 --> 00:12:16.679 didn't know where we were going to find ourselves in 204 00:12:16.970 --> 00:12:17.870 that type of scenario. 205 00:12:18.429 --> 00:12:21.570 Well, you know, I had a contentious relationship with the 206 00:12:21.610 --> 00:12:24.110 leadership of the Department of Correction because I'd pointed out 207 00:12:24.250 --> 00:12:27.409 sexual abuse in the Indiana women's prison. I'd written about 208 00:12:27.490 --> 00:12:31.080 human rights abuses, drug trafficking, et cetera, going on in 209 00:12:31.100 --> 00:12:33.059 the prisons. And so they weren't really happy with me. 210 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:36.580 So when I went in, they were very skeptical and, uh, 211 00:12:38.019 --> 00:12:40.840 And they were not very helpful, but they were. 212 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:41.600 In a tight spot. 213 00:12:41.740 --> 00:12:47.120 They couldn't conduct any negotiations. And they were holding these guards, 214 00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:49.750 three guards hostage. And there was a tier up above 215 00:12:50.590 --> 00:12:54.370 the cell doors where we were conducting the negotiations. And 216 00:12:54.389 --> 00:12:58.529 they would walk the hostages out every little bit and 217 00:12:58.590 --> 00:13:00.909 would hold a shiv to their throat and lean them 218 00:13:01.029 --> 00:13:04.759 over the railing. So I can see that we were 219 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:06.539 talking about some serious things here.

220 00:13:07.240 --> 00:13:09.259 And so you kind of diffuse the situation. Is there 221 00:13:09.299 --> 00:13:11.820 anything that, you know, helped with that? I mean, that's 222 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:12.600 just an amazing thing. 223 00:13:13.299 --> 00:13:15.019 You know, one thing that I think has helped my 224 00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:18.700 career as a journalist has been the fact that I listen. 225 00:13:19.879 --> 00:13:23.110 And I listened. And I listened to their complaints. And 226 00:13:23.139 --> 00:13:26.169 I heard the anger in their voices. They were double-selling 227 00:13:26.210 --> 00:13:32.490 people on death row. Double-selling people? Yeah, two guys to 228 00:13:32.529 --> 00:13:36.330 a cell. And the conditions, imagine in Michigan City, which 229 00:13:36.370 --> 00:13:42.240 was a 130-year-old prison, were not too comfortable. Not that 230 00:13:42.269 --> 00:13:44.759 you want to create too much comfort on death row, 231 00:13:44.779 --> 00:13:47.620 but people should be treated humanely, and they were not 232 00:13:47.659 --> 00:13:48.259 treated humanely. 233 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:53.539 Wow. Okay, so there's a lot to be said for 234 00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:55.360 being a good listener, huh? Yeah. 235 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:56.779 I think it's a key. 236 00:13:56.860 --> 00:13:58.940 If you're a journalist, one thing you want to do 237 00:13:59.019 --> 00:14:01.679 is listen and not assume that you know what the 238 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:02.179 story is. 239 00:14:03.710 --> 00:14:04.169 Absolutely. 240 00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:11.509 So, um, one second, humor me. My screen disappeared where 241 00:14:11.529 --> 00:14:13.149 my questions were. 242 00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:14.590 So, uh, yeah. 243 00:14:14.629 --> 00:14:16.789 And by the way, I, you know, honestly, I mean, 244 00:14:16.809 --> 00:14:22.549 this is so fascinating. I've been blindsided by, by your career. So, uh, 245 00:14:24.620 --> 00:14:26.580 so anyway, I mean, can you go more than 20 minutes? 246 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:30.100 I can go as long as you want. Oh, good, man. What, what, 247 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.139 what a, what a sport. Okay. 248 00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:37.950 So, um, Besides that one, that incredible story, what are 249 00:14:37.970 --> 00:14:39.909 the stories or standouts for you? I mean, you were 250 00:14:39.950 --> 00:14:43.970 involved with, I guess, kind of like exposing corrupt judges 251 00:14:44.049 --> 00:14:45.710 and maybe prosecutors, right? 252 00:14:45.950 --> 00:14:46.509 Tell us about that. 253 00:14:47.029 --> 00:14:51.029 Well, when I was a member of the investigative team 254 00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:53.240 of the Indianapolis Star, we did a series on the 255 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:57.159 federal bankruptcy courts and corruption in the bankruptcy courts. And 256 00:14:57.980 --> 00:15:00.340 that was a big national series. That's what we won 257 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.490 the American Bar Association Award for. for exposing that corruption. 258 00:15:04.529 --> 00:15:09.820 And my part of the project was trucking company bust-out scams. 259 00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:14.779 Trucking company? Bust-out scams. 260 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:19.480 So you take a trucking company, modest size, you take 261 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:23.779 it into bankruptcy court, and all of a sudden some 262 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.750 of its tractors and trailers disappear. And they wind up 263 00:15:27.769 --> 00:15:31.529 being shuffled off through a number of, situations through leases 264 00:15:31.610 --> 00:15:34.830 or whatever. You get this protected by attorneys in bankruptcy court, 265 00:15:34.870 --> 00:15:36.500 and you get a judge to sign off on the 266 00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:39.860 equipment being missing. And then you sell it off to 267 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:43.940 a cohort and then put new paint on it. So 268 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:46.320 I was doing a company called Leeway Motor Freight. They 269 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:48.899 were over in Ohio. And I was new to bankruptcy. 270 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:51.000 I didn't know a lot about bankruptcy at the time, 271 00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.360 but I went into the courthouse and I said, I 272 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.259 wanted to see the file on Leeway Motor Freight. And 273 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.759 the clerk looked up at me like I was wearing 274 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:01.330 a strange looking hat or something. And he said, you 275 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:02.509 want to see the file, right? 276 00:16:02.990 --> 00:16:03.549 I said, yeah. 277 00:16:03.830 --> 00:16:05.929 So he walked me down the hall and opened a 278 00:16:06.029 --> 00:16:09.789 room and there were thousands and thousands and thousands of 279 00:16:09.850 --> 00:16:12.850 documents in there. And he said, help yourself, you know? 280 00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:17.090 So I started looking through documents and I found a 281 00:16:17.230 --> 00:16:21.529 list of missing equipment. I wound up climbing over a 282 00:16:21.570 --> 00:16:24.049 chain link fence and writing down numbers of where this 283 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:27.929 equipment was going. And where it came from, what it 284 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:31.190 was leased to and tagged. And found out that they 285 00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:34.149 were going to a company that was running a truck 286 00:16:34.190 --> 00:16:35.210 driver training school. 287 00:16:36.049 --> 00:16:38.000 And that. 288 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:42.100 Led to the follow-up after the bankruptcy series on a 289 00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:47.259 company called Superior Trucking Company. And they were running a scam. 290 00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:50.730 They were recruiting people for truck driver training out of 291 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:55.720 welfare lines. Guys with amputations and things like that. They 292 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:58.799 were signing them up for guaranteed student loans. And then 293 00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:01.480

they were, these guys would never show up for training. 294 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.759 They were taking the money from the guaranteed student loans. 295 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.599 And the poor guy on the welfare line was defaulting 296 00:17:06.660 --> 00:17:08.960 on a loan he didn't even know he had. And 297 00:17:08.980 --> 00:17:12.319 they did that to the tune of $ 900 million in 298 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:13.920 fraud against the federal government. 299 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.779 I saw something like that too in New York. 300 00:17:16.859 --> 00:17:18.519 I saw something like that. Yeah, go ahead. 301 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.400 They owned a lovely jet. And they flew all the 302 00:17:22.460 --> 00:17:25.849 members of the Senate Education Committee all over the country 303 00:17:25.950 --> 00:17:29.990 for free. And they called that plane the Senate shuttle. 304 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:32.960 And this was going on while they were ripping off 305 00:17:32.980 --> 00:17:36.779 the federal government. So I exposed that stuff. And that 306 00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:39.400 sort of corruption was protected up and. 307 00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.059 Down the line. 308 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.940 So that was also an education for me because I 309 00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:48.859 came to understand for the first time, really, how people 310 00:17:48.940 --> 00:17:52.980 retaliate against reporters when they don't like their reporting. So 311 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:55.279 it turned out people were coming around, picking. 312 00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:55.819 Up my garbage. 313 00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:58.210 They were watching my house 24 hours a day. I 314 00:17:58.950 --> 00:18:01.289 think they were inside my house. I never found a wire. 315 00:18:01.670 --> 00:18:05.349 But eventually those folks that ran the company sued me 316 00:18:05.390 --> 00:18:14.099 for libel. And the case was dismissed after a judge 317 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:18.960 that this company was using for favorable rulings was removed 318 00:18:18.980 --> 00:18:22.349 from the bench for cause in Indiana. And all of 319 00:18:22.390 --> 00:18:23.950 those libel problems went away. 320 00:18:24.829 --> 00:18:31.009 But the level. You made yourself loved. I did. I 321 00:18:31.049 --> 00:18:31.910 was really popular. 322 00:18:31.930 --> 00:18:38.619 So looking back in the 70s and 80s, you began 1969. 323 00:18:38.619 --> 00:18:43.640 You know, tell us about how reporting was back then 324 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:48.140 versus later when technology ruled reporting. 325 00:18:48.970 --> 00:18:52.450 You know, journalism had its problems in reporting, and there 326 00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:56.849 were always concerns and issues, I think, maybe of a 327 00:18:56.990 --> 00:18:59.319 smaller scale. But one thing that did exist was an 328 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:04.720 institutional system for developing stories, for getting information, for writing 329 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:07.240 those

stories with sound foundation. And we tried to keep 330 00:19:07.299 --> 00:19:10.599 things accurate. If we didn't get them accurately done, we 331 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.470 wrote corrections. And that was just the normal course of things. 332 00:19:15.099 --> 00:19:21.480 The institutional knowledge that existed in newspapers gradually disappeared. When 333 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:25.420 I started as a reporter, other reporters took me under wing. 334 00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:29.410 They showed me how to get to things. They taught 335 00:19:29.450 --> 00:19:32.869 me the little tricks of interviewing and getting people to 336 00:19:32.910 --> 00:19:36.150 talk to you. That kind of institutional knowledge has gone 337 00:19:36.190 --> 00:19:39.309 out the window. Younger reporters don't really get that kind 338 00:19:39.349 --> 00:19:43.380 of mentoring that newsrooms provided because the newsrooms are largely gone. 339 00:19:43.950 --> 00:19:46.019 If you look at the size of the Indianapolis Star 340 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.250 and you can see the number of reporters that exist 341 00:19:50.289 --> 00:19:54.569 there around a kitchen table. In those days, there were 342 00:19:54.609 --> 00:19:57.849 six people in the newsroom, and there were five reporters 343 00:19:57.930 --> 00:20:01.440 in the investigative unit who had no rules, no restrictions, 344 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:05.200 came and went as they pleased, never went in the newsroom. 345 00:20:05.660 --> 00:20:08.579 That was the kind of environment that existed back then, 346 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.619 and slowly it has eroded. to to what we have 347 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:15.240 today which is not organized systemized reporting. 348 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:17.880 As it is remote guys i mean how do you 349 00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:22.809 get mentoring when you need it but you don't you 350 00:20:22.829 --> 00:20:25.109 think about yeah you think about all the all the 351 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:28.309 skills that were best um from one generation to another 352 00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.410 and then on to a third and fourth and beyond 353 00:20:31.049 --> 00:20:35.019 and that's just gone and so the you just I mean, 354 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:35.359 it's great. 355 00:20:35.380 --> 00:20:38.519 You have a pie line. I'm famous. I'm an important guy. 356 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:40.619 Yeah. But you know, you, you, you never learned a 357 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:43.559 lot of basic things probably that other people in the, 358 00:20:43.619 --> 00:20:46.920 in the craft did learn, but weren't able to pass 359 00:20:47.049 --> 00:20:49.549 on because they just weren't rubbing elbows. Yeah. It's just 360 00:20:49.569 --> 00:20:52.609 so important to be in proximity to people and not just, well, 361 00:20:52.809 --> 00:20:55.009 where we're connected, we're all remote now, you know, we're 362 00:20:55.029 --> 00:21:01.599 saving money and losing everything. So, um, You know, you 363 00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:04.359 were able to work with some newspaper legends at the 364 00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:06.140 New York Daily News, the New York Times. I'm thinking 365 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:09.359 about the Billy Joel song, you know, the New York Times, 366 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:15.349 the Daily News. Tell us about, please, if you could, 367 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:17.640 some of the people, the unforgettable people you get to 368 00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:21.170 know at these two New York newspapers. 369 00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:24.650 I can't say I got to know a lot of 370 00:21:24.690 --> 00:21:27.190 people because I was remote. Actually, I was in the 371 00:21:27.230 --> 00:21:31.769 Daily News newsroom a few times, but... And some of 372 00:21:31.789 --> 00:21:35.130 the characters that have worked at the Daily News that 373 00:21:35.190 --> 00:21:38.410 I've known and become friends with, Lucas Rivera, who was 374 00:21:38.509 --> 00:21:41.430 a reporter at the Daily News and likes to tell 375 00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:44.470 stories about Jimmy Breslin's advice to people about how you 376 00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:46.349 know when your story is ready is you stand up 377 00:21:46.390 --> 00:21:48.490 and you read it out loud. And if it sounds 378 00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:50.369 good to the ear, then it's okay to turn it 379 00:21:50.430 --> 00:21:54.170 into the city desk, right? So those kind of folks, but. 380 00:21:54.630 --> 00:21:56.529 You know, I have met so many characters over the 381 00:21:56.569 --> 00:21:59.430 years and so many really interesting characters. I developed a 382 00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:03.789 relationship with a guy in Chicago who was, he owned 383 00:22:03.990 --> 00:22:09.250 a little warehouse, paint and tile warehouse in Melrose Park. 384 00:22:09.349 --> 00:22:13.069 And it turned out that he played Pinochle sometimes at 385 00:22:13.349 --> 00:22:16.579 midnight with a guy named Tony Accardo, also known as 386 00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:19.400 Big Tuna, who ran the Chicago Mob for many years. 387 00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.380 And as I got to know him better, I found 388 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:25.279 out he was more than a Cardo's midnight pinnacle partner. 389 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:28.200 He was also Jimmy Hoffa's liaison to the Chicago mob. 390 00:22:28.980 --> 00:22:30.289 And one of the stories. 391 00:22:30.549 --> 00:22:31.029 Yeah. 392 00:22:31.430 --> 00:22:33.589 And so I got to know him very well. We 393 00:22:33.630 --> 00:22:35.730 hung out together quite a bit. I used to go 394 00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:39.329 to his warehouse and, and see the FBI send young 395 00:22:39.349 --> 00:22:42.049 guys in to, to buy paint and tile at the warehouse. 396 00:22:42.089 --> 00:22:43.779 So they could get a look at the old timers 397 00:22:43.819 --> 00:22:47.380 who were running the mob. And, uh, So he told 398 00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:49.619 me that, you know, I would kid him for years. 399 00:22:49.640 -->

00:22:51.529 I said, let me write a book about your life. 400 00:22:51.980 --> 00:22:53.990 He said, you're never going to do that. But one 401 00:22:54.009 --> 00:22:55.609 day he called me up after I got out to 402 00:22:55.650 --> 00:22:57.269 Denver and he said, you want to write a book 403 00:22:57.329 --> 00:23:00.710 about writing about Al Capone? I said, well, everybody's written 404 00:23:00.750 --> 00:23:03.069 about Al Capone. He said, yeah, but they never told 405 00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:05.349 the truth about him. I said, what's the truth about 406 00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:08.009 Al Capone? He said, he never ran a Chicago mob. 407 00:23:08.490 --> 00:23:11.109 He worked for a guy named Jake Guzik. Jake Guzik 408 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:12.930 was a guy that ran the Chicago mob. He was 409 00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:16.279 a Russian Jew. And all this stuff about the Italians 410 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.079 running the Chicago mob was a bunch of crap. He 411 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:24.650 said there were, excuse my language, but he said the 412 00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:27.430 real brains behind the operation was Jake Guzik. He says, 413 00:23:27.490 --> 00:23:29.869 I can put you next to Jake Guzik's son. He's 414 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:34.150 still alive. And I spent three days with Jake Guzik's 415 00:23:34.190 --> 00:23:36.599 son talking about the way the mob was back in 416 00:23:36.619 --> 00:23:39.680 the days of Al Capone. And he was Al Capone's 417 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.359 son's best friend. How old was Jake Guzik, by the way? 418 00:23:44.049 --> 00:23:46.549 Jake Guzik, when he died, was in his 50s. He 419 00:23:46.589 --> 00:23:49.650 was in his late 50s. He died in the 1950s, 420 00:23:49.769 --> 00:23:55.769 but Al Capone died before he did. But Guzik, he 421 00:23:55.829 --> 00:24:02.230 was a concert-quality pianist, actually. His father was a member 422 00:24:02.269 --> 00:24:05.630 of the Moscow Symphony Orchestra before they came to the U.S., 423 00:24:06.269 --> 00:24:09.579 and he became a concert-quality pianist, but he liked ragtime piano, 424 00:24:09.630 --> 00:24:12.170 and this was back in the teens and the early 20s. 425 00:24:12.700 --> 00:24:14.390 Parts of the 20s. 426 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:17.220 And he would go down to the first ward in 427 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.819 Chicago and play piano, ragtime piano, at the clubs and 428 00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:23.579 the houses of the prostitution down there. 429 00:24:23.619 --> 00:24:26.809 And he got to know all of the people involved. 430 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:30.789 And gradually, because of his brilliance and his logistic brilliance, 431 00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:33.670 he rose to the top of the organization. 432 00:24:34.869 --> 00:24:36.630 You know, the Mafia today just lacks culture. 433 00:24:37.470 --> 00:24:40.650 Yeah. 434 00:24:40.690 --> 00:24:43.170 Right. My dad actually went... my father and then my 435 00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:45.750 grandfather had, had a run on with Jimmy Hoffa. But 436 00:24:45.809 --> 00:24:47.809 it might have been interesting is your story. So I won't, 437 00:24:47.930 --> 00:24:50.019 I won't, I won't bore you with the details, but 438 00:24:50.059 --> 00:24:53.400 it was interesting. And then nonetheless, so let's, let's look at, um, 439 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:58.819 his book. Yeah. You know, the, um, the Manchurian journalist, 440 00:24:58.859 --> 00:25:01.220 Lawrence Wright, the CIA and the corruption of American journalism, 441 00:25:01.349 --> 00:25:01.920 Lawrence Wright. 442 00:25:02.009 --> 00:25:02.609 Oh my gosh. 443 00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:07.029 He was the prize winner and he becomes the target 444 00:25:07.829 --> 00:25:11.640 of David Sutter. Tell us about Lawrence Wright and, um, 445 00:25:12.650 --> 00:25:15.009 It's both the looming tower allocated and the route to 9-11. 446 00:25:15.589 --> 00:25:20.210 I suppose it was based on faulty reporting or corrupted 447 00:25:21.049 --> 00:25:22.029 sources or what? 448 00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:23.730 The corrupting sources. 449 00:25:24.690 --> 00:25:27.819 Well, you know, I never expected to be taking a 450 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:32.519 look at another journalist, but things happen unexpectedly. And I 451 00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.559 was freelancing and I got a call from a little 452 00:25:35.579 --> 00:25:38.700 magazine down in Florida that was interested in doing some 453 00:25:38.740 --> 00:25:40.900 investigative reporting and wanted to know if I would help 454 00:25:40.920 --> 00:25:41.220 them out. 455 00:25:42.069 --> 00:25:43.430 And it turned out to be owned by the Church 456 00:25:43.470 --> 00:25:49.009 of Scientology. Oh, my God. So, yeah. 457 00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:51.650 So, I went down to Florida and I talked to 458 00:25:51.670 --> 00:25:54.650 these folks at the Church of Scientology. And Lawrence Wright 459 00:25:54.670 --> 00:25:58.470 had written a book about the church, Going Clear. And so, 460 00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:00.470 they said, well, there's a lot wrong with this book. 461 00:26:00.529 --> 00:26:04.200 And he didn't really do any new reporting and whatever else. 462 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:05.740 And would you take a look at it and write 463 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:06.599 a story about that? 464 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:08.240 So, I did. 465 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:10.319 I took a look at his reporting on the church 466 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:13.539 and I found nothing. some holes. I got to know 467 00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:15.470 some of the people in the Church of Scientology. I 468 00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:18.309 got to know them pretty well, actually. I spent time 469 00:26:18.349 --> 00:26:21.730 with David Miscavige and others, and I heard a lot 470 00:26:21.750 --> 00:26:23.609 of the stories about the Church and its history and 471 00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:26.190 how it differed from what Lawrence Wright had written. But 472 00:26:26.230 --> 00:26:28.230 then I started, you

know, just like I do with 473 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:31.400 everybody else, on an investigative piece, I look at the 474 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.299 personalities involved, and I started taking a look at Lawrence Wright, 475 00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:37.259 and he'd written a memoir, and I started pulling that 476 00:26:37.339 --> 00:26:41.180 memoir apart and testing the accuracy of it. and started 477 00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:43.940 finding some problems, and then found something even more interesting, 478 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:49.380 that his father ran a bank in Dallas. He was ex-military, 479 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.950 and that bank was used as non-official cover for CIA 480 00:26:53.029 --> 00:26:57.009 operations in Dallas. And the man that Lawrence Wright's father 481 00:26:57.029 --> 00:26:59.450 was involved with was Robert Story, who was the chief 482 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:03.369 executive trial prosecutor in the Nuremberg war trials, and also 483 00:27:03.470 --> 00:27:06.130 one of the founders of the intelligence community in this country. 484 00:27:07.170 --> 00:27:10.049 And Lawrence Wright had never mentioned a word about Robert's 485 00:27:10.109 --> 00:27:12.970 story or his father's history with Robert's story or his 486 00:27:13.009 --> 00:27:16.569 father's history with intelligence. And then I discovered that Lawrence 487 00:27:16.609 --> 00:27:19.910 Wright went to a little summer class at Radcliffe in 488 00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:24.619 Boston when he graduated from college. And that class was 489 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:29.720 run by an operative for the Central Intelligence Agency. They 490 00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:34.259 got him a foundation gig at the University of Cairo, 491 00:27:34.380 --> 00:27:38.700 at the American University in Cairo. And I started looking 492 00:27:38.740 --> 00:27:41.420 at the American University and found out about their central 493 00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:46.200 intelligence ties. And basically what emerged was a story that 494 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:51.650 encapsulates the fact that from World War II on, the 495 00:27:51.710 --> 00:27:57.150 Central Intelligence Agency had begun recruiting journalists, recruiting others within 496 00:27:57.210 --> 00:28:03.009 various parts of our domestic community to build friendships, and 497 00:28:03.230 --> 00:28:06.349 particularly with journalists. And Lawrence Wright had a long history 498 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:10.940 of assistance in his career in becoming the journalist that 499 00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:13.240 he was. And so then I took a look at 500 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:16.640 Looming Tower and began to point out there or look 501 00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:19.390 at the contradictions that were in there with what we 502 00:28:19.430 --> 00:28:22.170 knew and how well that book had been received in 503 00:28:22.470 --> 00:28:24.809 reviews by the New York Times. It had been lauded 504 00:28:25.490 --> 00:28:30.309 by many organizations as the most insightful history into 9-11 505 00:28:31.569 --> 00:28:35.009 and to the situations with Al-Qaeda. But I found a 506 00:28:35.069 --> 00:28:38.170 lot of things in Lawrence Wright's book Justin Maddow. 507 00:28:39.809 --> 00:28:40.049 Right. 508 00:28:40.069 --> 00:28:41.950 So you guys are not fast friends, I'm sure. 509 00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:47.559 Well, he did send a post on X one day 510 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:51.359 that said that if anybody was contacted by somebody named 511 00:28:51.380 --> 00:28:54.839 Dan Lizatter, that he wasn't really a journalist. He was 512 00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:00.700 a PI working for the Church of Scientology. It did 513 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:04.039 inhibit my ability to talk to a few people I wanted. 514 00:29:03.819 --> 00:29:04.109 To, but. 515 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:06.440 Wow. 516 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.079 Well, before we go deeper on your book and Lawrence Wright, 517 00:29:11.619 --> 00:29:14.660 can I make a little digression into Nutrition Scientology and 518 00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:15.440 David Miscavige? 519 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:16.319 Oh, yeah, sure. 520 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:17.960 Go ahead. 521 00:29:17.980 --> 00:29:18.519 Tell us about that. 522 00:29:21.099 --> 00:29:24.980 Well, I had a good number of meetings with David 523 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:31.190 Miscavige in various parts of the world, actually, Australia and 524 00:29:31.809 --> 00:29:35.549 here in the U.S., and And we had private meetings 525 00:29:35.609 --> 00:29:36.839 in L.A. 526 00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:38.579 I went out to L.A. 527 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:41.900 After I had done some freelance work for them and 528 00:29:41.970 --> 00:29:45.450 actually served for a while as executive editor of their magazine. 529 00:29:46.430 --> 00:29:47.190 I was trying. 530 00:29:47.430 --> 00:29:52.130 How long? For about two and a half years, two years. 531 00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:54.259 What's that new publication? 532 00:29:54.670 --> 00:29:57.460 It's called Freedom Magazine. Okay. 533 00:29:58.200 --> 00:29:58.299 And. 534 00:29:59.210 --> 00:30:01.690 Freedom Magazine had an interesting history. I mean, it had 535 00:30:01.769 --> 00:30:05.410 actually done some pretty incredible investigative work over the course 536 00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:09.670 of its lifetime. And it was run by journalists. One 537 00:30:09.710 --> 00:30:12.690 journalist who had worked for Jack Anderson was a longtime 538 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:15.660 editor of Freedom Magazine. And Freedom Magazine had done some 539 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.539 exposés on Central Intelligence Agency and a lot of things 540 00:30:18.579 --> 00:30:21.759 that were not related directly to the church. But later on, 541 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:25.839 the magazine was turned more into a house organ and 542 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.920 basically arguments about the church and and promotion of the 543 00:30:29.980 --> 00:30:33.940 church activities. And I wanted to take it more

back 544 00:30:34.029 --> 00:30:36.750 into the investigative direction. We never really got there, but 545 00:30:36.789 --> 00:30:40.170 we did a few investigative pieces that were fairly good. 546 00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:45.089 But the course of events, I met people that were, 547 00:30:45.109 --> 00:30:50.259 I met the executive trustee of L. Ron Hubbard's estate 548 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:54.160 who had traveled with Hubbard for a good part of 549 00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:58.730 Hubbard's life. tenure as head of the Church of Scientology and. 550 00:30:59.089 --> 00:31:05.430 What was his name? The... Not much on the spot. 551 00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:08.210 You know, you both got to... Get this out. Yeah. 552 00:31:08.619 --> 00:31:09.910 Anyway, it'll come to me in a second. 553 00:31:10.339 --> 00:31:10.559 The. 554 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.359 Norman Starkey was his name. 555 00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:14.960 Norman Starkey. Norman Starkey. 556 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:15.559 I mean. 557 00:31:16.740 --> 00:31:19.079 So, this is like... You're not a member of the church, 558 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:19.309 are you? 559 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:21.079 No. No. 560 00:31:21.339 --> 00:31:23.880 No, I'm... I'm a casual Episcopalian. 561 00:31:25.140 --> 00:31:25.240 Okay. 562 00:31:25.259 --> 00:31:25.380 Yeah. 563 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.859 So, you know, I mean, so many people left the 564 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:33.940 Church of Scientology talking about people are kept in the hole. 565 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:40.660 They're basically treated like garbage. David Miscavige is extremely violent and, 566 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:48.369 you know, assaults people like at a certain frequency. And 567 00:31:49.029 --> 00:31:53.190 people just basically have a lot of tales of abuse, 568 00:31:54.269 --> 00:31:59.519 tales of escape. You know, it doesn't seem like an 569 00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.220 institution that would, you know, feel comfortable with using the 570 00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:05.819 word freedom in its flagship magazine title, you know. 571 00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:08.339 Right, right. 572 00:32:08.859 --> 00:32:12.799 And so that is a perception that has been pretty 573 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:17.619 broadly established across the American culture, that Scientology is an 574 00:32:17.869 --> 00:32:21.769 organization that is a cult and it does bad things 575 00:32:21.789 --> 00:32:25.410 to people, etc. But, you know, one thing that my 576 00:32:25.450 --> 00:32:28.269 experience has taught me is that The public perception isn't 577 00:32:28.309 --> 00:32:32.289 always necessarily accurate. But a lot of reporters are willing 578 00:32:32.329 --> 00:32:34.710 to go along with that public perception from the outset. 579 00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:39.970 My approach has been I want to know whether that's 580 00:32:40.029 --> 00:32:41.890 true or not. And I applied the same thing to 581 00:32:41.910 --> 00:32:45.329 when I was covering prisons. Public officials in the state 582 00:32:45.349 --> 00:32:47.150 of Indiana would tell you that there was never a 583 00:32:47.190 --> 00:32:50.470 human rights violation or the drug traffic was bad or 584 00:32:50.490 --> 00:32:53.359 they were providing good rehabilitation services for people in prison. 585 00:32:53.380 --> 00:32:55.519 But when I got in there, you know, it didn't 586 00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:58.799 look like that. And the story I heard about Scientology, 587 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:01.980 when I got inside, it didn't look like that. So 588 00:33:02.759 --> 00:33:06.680 I was given the opportunity to ask any question I wanted, 589 00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:11.240 to go anywhere I wanted, and they would provide documents 590 00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:13.079 to me to back up their arguments. 591 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:14.619 And that was my deal with them. 592 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:17.119 If I ask a question I want an answer and 593 00:33:17.140 --> 00:33:19.930 I want it backed up. And they did that over 594 00:33:20.289 --> 00:33:20.950 and over again. 595 00:33:21.650 --> 00:33:22.630 So I toured that. What's that? 596 00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:31.349 I toured the gold facility where the trailers were supposed 597 00:33:31.369 --> 00:33:35.470 to be, where people were held hostage and were brutalized and. 598 00:33:35.569 --> 00:33:36.569 Assaulted, etc. 599 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:40.440 I didn't see anything like that. I talked to hundreds 600 00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:43.460 of people in Scientology about what their attitude was about 601 00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:45.700 being a part of it or not being a part 602 00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:48.119 of it. One of the arguments that was made about 603 00:33:48.180 --> 00:33:52.339 Scientology was that people couldn't leave and they had to escape. 604 00:33:53.900 --> 00:33:57.269 A lot of those stories were, I think, created out 605 00:33:57.289 --> 00:34:00.569 of whole cloth because I never saw anybody held hostage. 606 00:34:00.990 --> 00:34:03.109 You could walk out on the street anytime you wanted to. 607 00:34:03.289 --> 00:34:04.730 You could have a cell phone if you want. 608 00:34:05.509 --> 00:34:05.750 Good. 609 00:34:05.890 --> 00:34:06.630 So, right. 610 00:34:06.670 --> 00:34:08.570 But I mean, did you, did they have a minder 611 00:34:08.659 --> 00:34:10.760 that was like kind of a guide that would accompany 612 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:13.400 you to, as you went from place to place? 613 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:16.920 Well, a good part of the time, but I was, 614 00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:23.519 you know, I've, I went to Hungary. I toured the church. 615 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:29.590 I hung out with local members. I moved through situations 616 00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.820 there and elsewhere. There was not someone that was constantly 617 00:34:32.860 --> 00:34:35.929 at my shoulder, although on one occasion when I was 618 00:34:36.010 --> 00:34:43.750 in England at the manor there, the

headquarters, I had 619 00:34:43.769 --> 00:34:48.219 a couple of young people with me, and I They 620 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:50.880 went one direction, I went another, and one of them remarked, 621 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:56.000 oh my God, we've left a reporter loose on the grounds. But, 622 00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:00.280 you know, I pretty much had open access to most 623 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:06.269 anything I wanted to see, and that was instructive. I 624 00:35:06.329 --> 00:35:10.789 met people across the country, people that were believers. You know, 625 00:35:10.829 --> 00:35:13.670 people can believe what they want, and I endorse the 626 00:35:13.769 --> 00:35:18.030 idea of religious freedom to people people making up their 627 00:35:18.070 --> 00:35:21.010 own minds. But there is a lot of distortion about 628 00:35:21.030 --> 00:35:23.050 the history of the Catholic Church. It doesn't mean, or 629 00:35:23.130 --> 00:35:26.329 Catholic Church, the Church of Scientology and the Catholic Church, 630 00:35:26.750 --> 00:35:30.389 but it doesn't mean that all of those stories are 631 00:35:30.449 --> 00:35:33.650 untrue or from the perspective of the person involved that 632 00:35:33.869 --> 00:35:36.210 there were not situations that were bad. But I never 633 00:35:36.289 --> 00:35:41.300 saw any indication of violence or talked to anyone that 634 00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:46.710 showed any indication of violence except in circumstances involving individuals 635 00:35:46.750 --> 00:35:51.389 who were making those accusations on occasions had engaged themselves in. 636 00:35:52.929 --> 00:35:56.809 So, okay, at any point, did you talk to ex-members 637 00:35:56.869 --> 00:35:57.349 of the church? 638 00:35:58.230 --> 00:35:58.510 I did. 639 00:35:58.530 --> 00:36:00.929 Yeah, a good number of ex-members. 640 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:04.380 Yeah. 641 00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:10.639 And I reviewed their, the documentations and things, films. I 642 00:36:10.659 --> 00:36:13.739 spent a lot of time reviewing those kinds of things. 643 00:36:14.610 --> 00:36:15.219 That's right. Okay. 644 00:36:16.449 --> 00:36:18.010 Okay. So, so I want to ask you a question 645 00:36:18.030 --> 00:36:20.409 about David Miscavige. He's done like one interview or maybe 646 00:36:20.429 --> 00:36:24.210 he's done more interviews that we just don't know about. Um, did, um, 647 00:36:25.530 --> 00:36:27.289 besides that interview I think he did with Ted Koppel 648 00:36:28.429 --> 00:36:31.070 and oh gosh, I was like, what was it? 1994 649 00:36:31.070 --> 00:36:32.289 is a long time ago. 650 00:36:32.690 --> 00:36:34.989 A long time ago. And see, why doesn't he do interviews? 651 00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:38.610 I mean, he's, he's, he's the head of the church. Uh, he's, 652 00:36:39.869 --> 00:36:42.960 you know, he obviously the church of Scientology wants new members. Um, 653 00:36:43.650 --> 00:36:45.190 You would think that that guy would be, you know, 654 00:36:46.389 --> 00:36:51.460 get as much exposure as possible. Why doesn't he? 655 00:36:51.480 --> 00:36:54.039 I think maybe the history with the media is part 656 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:58.440 of one of the reasons. And, you know, I think 657 00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:02.389 what a lot of people don't know about Scientology is 658 00:37:02.469 --> 00:37:07.610 the very difficult road they had to establishing themselves in 659 00:37:07.989 --> 00:37:11.230 various countries around the world and the kinds of things 660 00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:14.530 that were done about Scientology where they were treated like 661 00:37:14.570 --> 00:37:19.289 a cult in Germany, in England, in Australia, other places. 662 00:37:20.130 --> 00:37:23.250 At one time in Australia, if you possess Scientology materials, 663 00:37:23.349 --> 00:37:26.030 it could lead to your arrest or your children being 664 00:37:26.070 --> 00:37:28.630 taken away from you or your children not being allowed 665 00:37:28.650 --> 00:37:29.730 to attend public schools. 666 00:37:31.030 --> 00:37:31.949 In England, they. 667 00:37:31.849 --> 00:37:34.829 Restricted people's ability who were members of the church to 668 00:37:34.869 --> 00:37:38.340 fly in and out of the country. There have been 669 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:42.289 a lot of repression of Scientology the church and the 670 00:37:42.349 --> 00:37:45.710 church's ideas. 671 00:37:47.590 --> 00:37:52.460 I was just going to say that. 672 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.630 The attitude that's been long expressed toward the church, I think, 673 00:37:58.650 --> 00:38:03.030 is part of the reluctance of Miscavige to come out 674 00:38:03.090 --> 00:38:04.409 and do those kinds of interviews. 675 00:38:05.190 --> 00:38:06.130 In the interview he did. 676 00:38:06.050 --> 00:38:08.030 With Ted Koppel, actually, I thought he did a fairly 677 00:38:08.050 --> 00:38:08.989 good job of. 678 00:38:09.389 --> 00:38:11.210 Actually, yeah, I will say this. I think he acquitted 679 00:38:11.230 --> 00:38:12.030 himself very, very well. 680 00:38:12.050 --> 00:38:19.800 Probably spent lots of time preparing for it. But, you know, 681 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:25.920 I think it's an important factor, let's say, an important 682 00:38:26.139 --> 00:38:31.300 consideration in this whole treatment of Scientology that they supposedly 683 00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:33.480 infiltrated the government at many levels, right? 684 00:38:34.099 --> 00:38:34.400 They did. 685 00:38:35.650 --> 00:38:39.429 They did infiltrate the government. And the CIA as well, right? 686 00:38:40.070 --> 00:38:42.179 But when you go back into the story of what 687 00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:45.679 actually happened there, which probably most people don't know, is 688 00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:48.940 that there was something called the Guardian's Office, which in 689 00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:51.079 the wake of all of the attacks on the church 690 00:38:51.219 --> 00:38:58.639 was developed by L. Ron Hubbard's

wife to protect the church. 691 00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:02.710 But it became something of a franchise for her. And 692 00:39:02.750 --> 00:39:07.789 she was the person essentially behind putting employees into the IRS, 693 00:39:08.309 --> 00:39:13.699 the FBI, other agencies where they could gather documents to 694 00:39:13.739 --> 00:39:18.480 show that the government was improperly attacking the church. And, 695 00:39:18.500 --> 00:39:20.820 of course, they had the big IRS case going on forever. 696 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:27.510 And so they did infiltrate. They were discovered. They were prosecuted. 697 00:39:27.530 --> 00:39:30.380 And people actually went to jail over that. But the 698 00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:35.360 guardian's office then later was disbanded, and it was disbanded 699 00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:40.280 by Miscavige because of those excesses and that abuse. And 700 00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:43.090 he is the one that launched the negotiations with the 701 00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:46.690 IRS that lasted for a couple of years and and 702 00:39:46.809 --> 00:39:50.800 resulted in trainloads of documents from the Church of Scientology 703 00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.559 being turned over to the IRS, something that you won't 704 00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:57.900 really read about in Lawrence Wright's book about Scientology because 705 00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:00.000 he took it off as a point of view that 706 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:03.789 the church was so vigorously threatening to sue the IRS 707 00:40:03.829 --> 00:40:07.010 that they couldn't keep up with all the lawsuits, which 708 00:40:07.070 --> 00:40:09.670 is an argument that may sound good to the people 709 00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:12.710 not well-informed about how these kind of court cases work, 710 00:40:13.530 --> 00:40:17.139 but that wasn't what happened. They turned over Documents that included, 711 00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:20.360 they showed me a piece of paper with some loose 712 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:24.199 coins taped to the piece of paper to account for 713 00:40:25.099 --> 00:40:26.380 a few cents of missing money. 714 00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:31.469 Okay, well, interesting. I mean, I have a saying that 715 00:40:32.010 --> 00:40:35.110 people say, what? Yeah, how many sides does a coin have? 716 00:40:35.130 --> 00:40:35.650 They say, well, two. 717 00:40:35.969 --> 00:40:39.510 Actually, no, it's three. And heads, tails, and also that 718 00:40:39.570 --> 00:40:41.750 little thin area that's ridged. 719 00:40:42.409 --> 00:40:43.750 That's where the depth is. 720 00:40:46.150 --> 00:40:47.610 It's like what I see, what you see, and then 721 00:40:47.650 --> 00:40:49.989 what God sees, but not that David Miscavige is God. 722 00:40:50.289 --> 00:40:54.789 His father, Ron Miscavige, actually defected from the church and 723 00:40:55.429 --> 00:40:56.170 wrote a book about it. 724 00:40:56.250 --> 00:40:58.769 And so, I mean, I think there's a lot to 725 00:40:58.809 --> 00:41:01.559 be

said for looking into this more and greater. 726 00:41:01.579 --> 00:41:08.119 But going back to your book, A Maturing Journalist, how 727 00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:10.800 did American journalism really get corrupted? 728 00:41:10.900 --> 00:41:12.329 And is it really.... 729 00:41:13.309 --> 00:41:16.010 Fair to say that when getting a story means getting 730 00:41:16.070 --> 00:41:18.909 a source and the source is going to want something 731 00:41:19.010 --> 00:41:21.659 back and the source is also going to be there 732 00:41:21.739 --> 00:41:28.360 coaching the development of the story, feeding the storylines. It's 733 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.119 going to happen. It's hard to police your sources. You 734 00:41:32.139 --> 00:41:35.239 have to be somewhat skeptical, but then again, you get 735 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.800 somebody at a high level in the CIA, they're going 736 00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:42.139 to tell you stuff and they're going to tell the 737 00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:44.280 whole story and you don't have access to the whole 738 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:47.170 story because you don't have access to all the facts, right? 739 00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:52.469 I mean, is it... Solves errors that, you know? Are 740 00:41:52.489 --> 00:41:55.769 you picking on the CIA, Dan? Am I? I would think. 741 00:41:55.889 --> 00:41:58.610 I would think that because most of what I'm dealing 742 00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:02.639 with is history, you know? And that's what has been 743 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:06.000 fascinating to me about this book and this process is 744 00:42:06.019 --> 00:42:09.360 there were not a lot of sources coming to me 745 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:15.300 saying this is the way it was. This was archival research. 746 00:42:15.780 --> 00:42:18.159 A lot of what went into this was archival research. 747 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:22.119 I went back to Amherst and pulled out the personal 748 00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:27.059 papers of John McCloy, who was so influential on American 749 00:42:27.099 --> 00:42:30.239 history but doesn't get a lot of notice these days. 750 00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:33.650 He was head of the Rockefeller Foundation. He was head 751 00:42:33.690 --> 00:42:35.710 of the Ford Foundation. He was head of the Council 752 00:42:35.750 --> 00:42:39.369 on Foreign Relations. He was the governor for the occupation 753 00:42:39.409 --> 00:42:41.800 of Germany in World War II. He was a guy 754 00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:45.260 who helped craft the intelligence network that existed after World 755 00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:49.179 War II. And part of that intelligence network was making 756 00:42:49.300 --> 00:42:55.050 sure that what Americans heard about American ideals and democracy 757 00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:58.269 and those sorts of things lined up with the anti-communist 758 00:42:58.309 --> 00:43:03.719 stance that the government took. And so journalists who were 759 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:07.840 willing to help with that process who were

willing to 760 00:43:07.900 --> 00:43:12.360 help weed out certain stories from the American public, stories 761 00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:14.820 that really we should have heard about or should have 762 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:19.110 known about, or stories we only got bits and pieces 763 00:43:19.570 --> 00:43:23.690 of through the daily reporting. Those things didn't tell us 764 00:43:23.769 --> 00:43:26.150 the whole story about what was going on. The CIA 765 00:43:26.190 --> 00:43:31.860 was prohibited from doing intelligence operations domestically. They have ignored 766 00:43:31.900 --> 00:43:34.900 that rule. They have— What are those proxies? 767 00:43:35.519 --> 00:43:35.719 What? 768 00:43:36.030 --> 00:43:39.269 They use foreign proxies like MI5. 769 00:43:41.329 --> 00:43:44.510 Well, they use other proxies, but they use individuals who 770 00:43:44.570 --> 00:43:49.480 have allegiances or had allegiances at one time to the OSS, 771 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.960 the beginning of the intelligence service during World War II. 772 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.650 They had the help of people who were ex-military. There 773 00:43:57.670 --> 00:44:00.429 was a situation in Indianapolis when I was investigating the 774 00:44:00.489 --> 00:44:03.989 company that I mentioned, Superior Training, Director of Training School. 775 00:44:04.610 --> 00:44:07.409 There was a guy that worked for an accounting firm. 776 00:44:07.989 --> 00:44:09.659 He didn't know how to run a calculator. He didn't 777 00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:12.460 know how to run a typewriter. He didn't do any 778 00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:16.019 of that stuff. But he was undercover for the FBI, 779 00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:19.380 and he was closely associated with the CIA. He got 780 00:44:19.420 --> 00:44:22.920 in touch with me, fed me some records that helped 781 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:26.150 me in my pursuit, although I didn't know then why 782 00:44:26.170 --> 00:44:30.760 he was doing that. but the records were legitimate and 783 00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:34.519 they helped the story. But as I began to research further, 784 00:44:34.619 --> 00:44:37.840 I began to understand that there were elements in Indianapolis 785 00:44:37.900 --> 00:44:43.179 that reached into the intrigue behind Iran-Contra. And some of 786 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:49.170 those things involve political people and political situations. So the 787 00:44:50.090 --> 00:44:55.250 use of the Central Intelligence Agency to literally step into 788 00:44:55.289 --> 00:45:02.190 the stirrups of the Drug Enforcement Administration and to run 789 00:45:03.329 --> 00:45:08.139 or to oversee drug enforcement activities in this country occurred 790 00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:12.239 because they wanted to develop intelligence sources within these drug 791 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:16.659 networks for use in other circumstances. They did that with 792 00:45:16.719 --> 00:45:21.099 the Chagras in Texas. Sorry, I fell with whom? 793 00:45:21.260

--> 00:45:22.070 The Chagras. 794 00:45:22.550 --> 00:45:25.949 Lee Chagra and his brother in Texas who were running 795 00:45:26.230 --> 00:45:31.070 major marijuana operations and were tagged as responsible for the 796 00:45:31.110 --> 00:45:35.409 killing of a federal judge in Texas. Neither were ever 797 00:45:35.469 --> 00:45:42.230 prosecuted for that. Woody Harrelson's father was the trigger man 798 00:45:42.269 --> 00:45:47.849 in that case. But the- But these elements of central 799 00:45:47.889 --> 00:45:54.650 intelligence agency working within universities, working within the media, working 800 00:45:54.690 --> 00:46:03.079 within the private sector to help protect our capitalist democracy, 801 00:46:03.099 --> 00:46:07.019 I think has been sort of an untold story about 802 00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:09.340 our intelligence community and what it became. 803 00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:10.679 Right. 804 00:46:10.699 --> 00:46:12.539 So, I mean, okay. I mean, I can understand that. 805 00:46:12.619 --> 00:46:14.920 I mean, it's not necessarily, I don't think you see 806 00:46:14.940 --> 00:46:16.880 why it would be a bad thing. I mean, we're 807 00:46:16.900 --> 00:46:19.619 talking about a free society where people are free to 808 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:22.510 give the middle finger to the United States, to its values, 809 00:46:22.530 --> 00:46:26.150 to its culture, to its history, to its institutions, to 810 00:46:26.190 --> 00:46:26.949 the establishment. 811 00:46:27.070 --> 00:46:28.389 And, you know, you look at. 812 00:46:30.090 --> 00:46:33.369 You know, in the cold, during the Cold War, you know, 813 00:46:33.610 --> 00:46:35.440 the misery of living in the Soviet Union. I mean, 814 00:46:35.460 --> 00:46:38.659 this is just amply documented. It wasn't really an enjoyable 815 00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:41.769 existence for a somebody to be on a bread line 816 00:46:41.809 --> 00:46:44.110 for three hours and finding at the end that there's 817 00:46:44.150 --> 00:46:44.730 no bread left. 818 00:46:44.769 --> 00:46:46.289 How about some bread? Right. 819 00:46:46.329 --> 00:46:49.969 So, I mean, it's, you know, I just think it's very, 820 00:46:49.989 --> 00:46:52.170 very important that the government has to put its best 821 00:46:52.190 --> 00:46:56.670 foot forward and speak on behalf of its, let's say the. 822 00:46:56.630 --> 00:46:58.150 Values within the government. 823 00:46:58.869 --> 00:47:01.869 Sometimes we wonder what those values are as they evolve, 824 00:47:01.989 --> 00:47:06.090 but getting back to poor old Lawrence Wright, if he 825 00:47:06.110 --> 00:47:09.190 had to give like a three minute or two minute 826 00:47:09.849 --> 00:47:13.239 you know, dressing down. Yeah, I'm Lawrence Wright. Just give 827 00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:15.840 it to me good, you know. What would you say 828 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:19.699 to him in person that why he became the subject 829 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:23.440 of the focus of your book, The Manchurian Journalist? What 830 00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:26.579 were the root of the goods on Lawrence Wright that 831 00:47:26.599 --> 00:47:31.079 really the American public, you know, need to hear if 832 00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:34.530 they haven't read your book? I think it's a lack 833 00:47:34.550 --> 00:47:35.409 of transparency. 834 00:47:35.989 --> 00:47:38.230 And I think that's one thing journalists ought to offer 835 00:47:38.329 --> 00:47:44.059 to journalists to those they're writing for and about is transparency. 836 00:47:44.539 --> 00:47:46.239 I think it's important for us to know who our 837 00:47:46.260 --> 00:47:50.230 journalists are, and I think it's incumbent upon journalists not 838 00:47:50.750 --> 00:47:54.510 to hide their background or those favors they might have 839 00:47:54.530 --> 00:47:57.989 been granted or those people in their background who might 840 00:47:58.030 --> 00:48:04.570 have promoted their careers who have other agendas besides a good, free, 841 00:48:04.769 --> 00:48:10.409 independent press in which journalists are expressing you know, their 842 00:48:11.449 --> 00:48:17.239 skills by recording factually what's going on. You know, the 843 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:23.219 problem with the Central Intelligence Agency doing domestic work in 844 00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:28.280 the United States is they influence political processes and they 845 00:48:28.340 --> 00:48:32.920 influence public perceptions about the world. 846 00:48:32.699 --> 00:48:33.210 We live in. 847 00:48:33.780 --> 00:48:37.820 And so influencing those public perceptions domestically seems to me 848 00:48:38.329 --> 00:48:40.050 To be an anti-democratic value. 849 00:48:40.949 --> 00:48:41.610 Oh, yeah. 850 00:48:41.690 --> 00:48:45.239 I think you remember all the 50 some odd intelligence 851 00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:52.000 experts who think that Joe Biden's son's Hunter Biden's laptop 852 00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:54.300 has earmarks of Russian disinformation. 853 00:48:54.929 --> 00:48:59.230 John Brennan, thank you very much. Very concerned, but that's 854 00:48:59.269 --> 00:49:00.070 a good example, right? 855 00:49:01.150 --> 00:49:02.070 That's one good example. 856 00:49:02.250 --> 00:49:03.949 There's many other good examples out there. 857 00:49:04.030 --> 00:49:04.210 Yeah. 858 00:49:04.849 --> 00:49:10.039 Jim, lately I've been focusing more on the aspect of corruption, 859 00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:14.679 and we see this blatant level of corruption going on 860 00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:18.079 in front of us, and we don't think about the 861 00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:22.159 roots of all that. And I think we don't think 862 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:27.260 about how long and how institutionalized corruption has become in 863 00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:30.710 this country and the favoritism that exists that results in 864 00:49:30.750 --> 00:49:33.690 problems for common people. 865 00:49:34.630 --> 00:49:35.969 Oh, yeah, sure. 866 00:49:36.289

--> 00:49:41.550 I mean, I'll just say that, you know, I think 867 00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:45.570 there's a money network that is so powerful. Maybe Trump 868 00:49:45.610 --> 00:49:49.750 is dismantling it. He's a man with many faults. But USAID, 869 00:49:50.210 --> 00:49:53.230 I mean, remember, I spoke to William Colby before he died. 870 00:49:55.090 --> 00:49:55.590 Funny but true. 871 00:49:55.610 --> 00:49:58.090 I actually reached out to him. I talk about transparency. 872 00:49:58.340 --> 00:50:00.260 His name and number was in the phone book. 873 00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:01.800 And I found it. I was in Columbia at the time. 874 00:50:02.500 --> 00:50:04.239 And I called him. I spoke to him for a 875 00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:04.760 couple of minutes. 876 00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:08.340 And I wanted to be his agent to give a 877 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:09.539 paid seminar in Columbia. 878 00:50:09.699 --> 00:50:13.539 Long story short, Turns out his wife worked for USAID. 879 00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.260 Tell you something. And it was interesting. 880 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.679 And, but then it comes out that maybe USAID would 881 00:50:19.780 --> 00:50:23.349 receive over time, billions of dollars, if not hundreds and 882 00:50:23.409 --> 00:50:24.030 hundreds of millions. 883 00:50:25.690 --> 00:50:26.909 Well, they will influence. 884 00:50:26.570 --> 00:50:32.510 People in the public sphere, you know? And, you know, NPR, 885 00:50:32.550 --> 00:50:36.360 National Public Radio. And let's face it, I'm a conservative. 886 00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:41.480 And they know it. And, I think it's safe to 887 00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:44.599 say they won't give me the time of day in many, 888 00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:47.599 many places simply because, oh, he's, he voted for Trump. 889 00:50:47.659 --> 00:50:48.300 Oh, he's bad. 890 00:50:48.699 --> 00:50:50.320 Oh, you can't let him in there. But I mean, 891 00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:52.780 the journals have an important job to do. You may like, 892 00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:55.860 you may not always like what they report, but it's really, 893 00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:58.989 really important if somebody, you know, like Seymour, Seymour Hirsch 894 00:50:59.929 --> 00:51:02.849 digging deep in Fort Benning, Georgia and finding out all 895 00:51:02.869 --> 00:51:04.070 the dirty details. 896 00:51:03.730 --> 00:51:04.429 About my line. 897 00:51:04.969 --> 00:51:05.130 Yeah. 898 00:51:05.530 --> 00:51:07.630 That's a bottom, you know? 899 00:51:08.769 --> 00:51:11.789 But, I mean, it's important to recognize something that there 900 00:51:11.829 --> 00:51:13.269 has been, and people say, well, why did Trump? 901 00:51:13.289 --> 00:51:16.769 Trump is horrible. Oh, he's toxic. He's the worst thing. 902 00:51:16.809 --> 00:51:20.460 He's an attack on democracy. He's like battery acid poured 903 00:51:20.500 --> 00:51:21.860 over the Mona Lisa. Okay. 904 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:28.780 Do you know why the Trump presidency

surged? Trump as 905 00:51:28.820 --> 00:51:32.099 a candidate and his platform surged is because we felt 906 00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:36.400 so screwed and so patronized by. 907 00:51:36.059 --> 00:51:37.780 The ruling elites. 908 00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:40.579 That we felt like we just didn't have a place 909 00:51:40.599 --> 00:51:43.380 at the table anymore. And so that's why it happened, 910 00:51:43.460 --> 00:51:45.400 you know, and at the people in the Ivy league 911 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:47.739 and all that. And, you know, we felt like we 912 00:51:47.780 --> 00:51:52.239 saw all the, all the patronizing condescending. 913 00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:57.280 Leaders, uh, in institutions. And we just felt like we were, uh, 914 00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:01.059 we're pissed upon, you know? And I see that. 915 00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:05.980 And, and I, I recognize that as true. How dysfunctional 916 00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:10.219 does the government have to become? before there is an 917 00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:16.650 eruption by the people that result in change. And I 918 00:52:16.690 --> 00:52:19.530 think a lot of people who endorsed Trump were looking 919 00:52:19.590 --> 00:52:22.909 for change and looking for an end to chaos within 920 00:52:23.590 --> 00:52:26.550 the government from both sides, from the Democrats, from the Republicans. 921 00:52:27.730 --> 00:52:28.050 And the. 922 00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:34.780 Solution, I don't think, really fit the problem because if 923 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:40.460 you want government to work efficiently and orderly and in 924 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:44.980 the best interest of everybody in this country, then you 925 00:52:45.019 --> 00:52:48.280 don't endorse the kind of blatant corruption that's going on 926 00:52:48.820 --> 00:52:50.820 in the midst of this presidency. 927 00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:52.139 Sure. 928 00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:55.110 I mean, the thing is, I will admit, this surprised 929 00:52:55.130 --> 00:52:58.769 my brother from Delaware, who, what I think, Brother Prasamala 930 00:52:58.849 --> 00:53:02.349 and Joe Biden and all that. Although it's funny because 931 00:53:02.389 --> 00:53:04.989 her wife's family from Delaware did not like Joe Biden. 932 00:53:05.440 --> 00:53:11.519 But one time I told my brother a story about 933 00:53:12.099 --> 00:53:14.230 Donald Trump's pilot who got fired because he said, hey, 934 00:53:14.250 --> 00:53:16.150 this plane's got problems. And the guy who told it 935 00:53:16.170 --> 00:53:21.989 to me was like a former high-level executive or person 936 00:53:22.030 --> 00:53:24.389 working for the John Birch Society. He told me that 937 00:53:24.570 --> 00:53:26.130 he went to Mass one day and he met Trump's 938 00:53:26.170 --> 00:53:29.190 pilot and, you. 939 00:53:28.429 --> 00:53:29.530 Know, got to be friendly. 940 00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:32.099 And one time he saw him again after church. 941 00:53:32.139 --> 00:53:35.300 He said, well, you know, how's

Trump doing? Oh, and 942 00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:36.239 he fired me. 943 00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:40.260 What? Yeah, I told him the campaign plane had some 944 00:53:40.420 --> 00:53:43.219 really big problems. And I don't know politics, Mr. Trump, 945 00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:45.260 but I do know planes. And this plane, you got 946 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:48.179 to do an overhaul, man. Or it could become unsafe. 947 00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:52.469 And he fired him. Now, I bring this to light 948 00:53:52.510 --> 00:53:56.190 because of the fact that it's really bad to not 949 00:53:56.769 --> 00:54:01.150 welcome bad news. And if you don't welcome bad news, 950 00:54:01.590 --> 00:54:04.449 you create a culture problem. whereby people will not give 951 00:54:04.489 --> 00:54:07.360 you the true news they'll give you polished news they 952 00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:09.639 won't tell you the truth and the worst thing for 953 00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:14.519 a commander a general a colonel is a yes man 954 00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:16.539 who doesn't tell you the truth about what's really going 955 00:54:16.579 --> 00:54:19.099 down with the troops and then people get killed people 956 00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:20.800 get hurt so it's important to be able to go 957 00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:23.469 to somebody say that hey this is pretty bad let 958 00:54:23.489 --> 00:54:26.550 me tell you why and and open up the microphone 959 00:54:26.570 --> 00:54:29.909 to people who give a counter narrative it's messy but 960 00:54:29.949 --> 00:54:31.809 we need to have that man we really need to 961 00:54:31.849 --> 00:54:36.280 have that and Sadly, it's not just, you know, the 962 00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:39.280 counter-narrative of what's really going down with Donald Trump. It's 963 00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:41.659 been decades of the counter-narrative of what's really going down 964 00:54:41.739 --> 00:54:46.280 with all the 15 presidents in our memory and their 965 00:54:46.300 --> 00:54:49.800 administrations and what's been going on and the stupidity that's 966 00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:54.469 been ignored or hushed or suppressed for so many years 967 00:54:54.530 --> 00:54:56.070 because of the fact that you're rocking the boat, man. 968 00:54:56.110 --> 00:54:58.570 Don't do that, you know. You'll lose your job. But, 969 00:54:58.590 --> 00:55:01.170 I mean, it's an important thing. I'm glad you wrote 970 00:55:01.190 --> 00:55:06.340 this book. Um, and, uh, but also you have to recognize, 971 00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:09.460 I think your profession is a damn difficult profession because 972 00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:11.360 you got to get, dude, you got to get some 973 00:55:11.420 --> 00:55:13.000 stories and they got to be big. And, you know, 974 00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:16.139 and by the nature of it, you know, you've got 975 00:55:16.179 --> 00:55:17.320 your boss at home who says. 976 00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:18.659 You're sleeping on the couch, man. 977 00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:24.380

You're not making enough money as a reporter, get some breaking, 978 00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:26.639 break some big stories and get a promotion. 979 00:55:26.699 --> 00:55:28.150 And maybe, you know, triple your. 980 00:55:28.050 --> 00:55:30.329 Salary at some point, you know, anyway, by the way, folks, 981 00:55:30.349 --> 00:55:33.340 we've been on, But the very fascinating guy is Dan Lussater. 982 00:55:35.079 --> 00:55:39.030 The Manchurian journalist, Lawrence Wright, the CIA and the corruption 983 00:55:39.050 --> 00:55:45.130 of American journalism. His website is www.danlussater.com. It's been great 984 00:55:45.150 --> 00:55:47.530 having you on Quorum Radio. Dan, any other books besides this? 985 00:55:47.829 --> 00:55:50.219 Forgive me if I'm remiss and I can't call out 986 00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:50.699 your titles. 987 00:55:51.260 --> 00:55:54.539 Well, I wrote a collection of columns, but I am 988 00:55:54.579 --> 00:55:59.570 working on a book right now on– this case of corruption, 989 00:55:59.610 --> 00:56:04.269 police corruption, political corruption in Indiana in 1978 around a 990 00:56:04.309 --> 00:56:07.699 series of murders and bombings in the Speedway, Indiana, outside 991 00:56:07.739 --> 00:56:15.239 the 500. And we're working on a book and podcast 992 00:56:15.300 --> 00:56:21.320 and documentary film on this project. And it's very interesting 993 00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:26.239 in how the parallels of corruption in 1978 uh, teach 994 00:56:26.300 --> 00:56:29.900 us lessons about today and what, uh, now. 995 00:56:30.579 --> 00:56:34.630 Great being on with Daniel Sautter, author of the Manchurian Journalist, 996 00:56:34.690 --> 00:56:37.449 Lawrence Wright, the CIA and the Corruption of American Journalism. Folks, 997 00:56:37.989 --> 00:56:40.449 we got some incredible guests on Quorum Radio. Dan has 998 00:56:40.469 --> 00:56:41.949 been one of them. Thanks a million for being on 999 00:56:41.969 --> 00:56:42.349 the show, Dan. 1000 00:56:42.369 --> 00:56:44.190 I hope we can do it again. My pleasure. 1001 00:56:44.769 --> 00:56:49.530 You're listening to Quorum Radio. Hey folks, have you seen SpiritDaily.com 1002 00:56:49.590 --> 00:56:54.230 and its amazing and mysterious news stories? SpiritDaily.com has testimonies 1003 00:56:54.269 --> 00:56:57.570 about miracles, articles about strange occurrences both from the present 1004 00:56:57.769 --> 00:57:02.280 and from the past, and the Christian angle to current events, news, science, spiritual, 1005 00:57:02.380 --> 00:57:03.420 and even physical health. 1006 00:57:03.699 --> 00:57:03.940 Also. 1007 00:57:04.219 --> 00:57:07.400 Read spiritdaily.com as the accounts of the supernatural, the demonic, 1008 00:57:07.460 --> 00:57:11.039 preternatural phenomena, and even exorcists expelling demons from time to time. 1009 00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:13.920 But more importantly, you'll find uplifting writing about the Christian 1010 00:57:13.940 --> 00:57:16.539 faith and family, and our prayer, the great power of 1011 00:57:16.579 --> 00:57:19.599 the rosary, the saints, and more. Want great books like 1012 00:57:19.659 --> 00:57:22.900 Cleansing Your Home from Evil or The Amazing Padre Pio? Again, 1013 00:57:23.079 --> 00:57:27.039 go to spiritdaily.com. And for exclusive content, subscribe to Spirit 1014 00:57:27.059 --> 00:57:31.980 Daily Reports. Help Quorum Radio. Go to spiritdaily.com. That's spiritdaily.com. 1015 00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:46.889 They say there's always magic in the air But when 1016 00:57:46.909 --> 00:57:52.170 you're walking down the street And you ain't had it. 1017 00:57:57.380 --> 00:58:02.719 And you're nowhere. 1018 00:58:02.489 --> 00:58:13.050 They say the girls are something else On Broadway But 1019 00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:17.489 looking at them Gives me the. 1020 00:58:17.489 --> 00:58:22.320 Blues How you gonna make some time. 1021 00:58:30.099 --> 00:58:38.239 And I won't even shine your shoes on Broadway. 1022 00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:46.849 They say that I won't last long on Broadway, on Broadway. 1023 00:58:47.269 --> 00:58:49.570 I'll catch up with. 1024 00:58:49.130 --> 00:58:52.309 My bus for home they all say. 1025 00:59:04.420 --> 00:59:04.510 And I want me to tell my own story And 1026 00:59:04.630 --> 00:59:10.130 I won't admit it till I'm a star on Broadway. 1027 00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:11.599 On Broadway. 1028 00:59:33.809 --> 00:59:38.570 I know they are Cause I can play this here 1029 00:59:38.929 --> 00:59:46.019 guitar And I won't be till I'm a star On 1030 00:59:46.119 --> 01:00:10.329 Broadway I'll make it last. Everybody, everybody's gonna know me. 1031 01:00:10.429 --> 01:00:13.590 Oh, I've been down the wrong way.