บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Wisdom from Lifelong Statesman Lamar Alexander

00:04:52.583 --> 00:05:02.642 And he told me, he said, "Well, I'll treat you as a law clerk if you'll come for $300 a month as a messenger." So I did, and that led to me… I got tired of making $300 a month after a while. 00:05:02.642 --> 00:05:07.343 I went down on Bourbon Street and I got a job at a place called, beer joint called Your Father's Mustache. 00:05:07.824 --> 00:05:10.884 And so I played for whomever was off in the band at night. 00:05:10.884 --> 00:05:15.432 I played the trombone and the tuba and, and the washboard with a spoon. 00:05:15.843 --> 00:05:16.562 Incredible. 00:05:16.603 --> 00:05:18.744 So you had just graduated from Vanderbilt, and... 00:05:19.223 --> 00:05:20.812 Well, I just graduated from New York University... 00:05:20.882 --> 00:05:22.043 Sorry, from New York University. 00:05:22.043 --> 00:05:22.093 ...from law school. 00:05:22.093 --> 00:05:22.632 From law school. 00:05:22.632 --> 00:05:22.692 Yeah... 00:05:23.023 --> 00:05:23.324 So you'd been in... 00:05:23.324 --> 00:05:24.052 ...and, and Vanderbilt before that 00:05:24.192 --> 00:05:24.682 ...before that. 00:05:25.283 --> 00:05:43.194 And at that time, obviously, university desegregation and ... and desegregation of school systems more broadly was, you know, a hot button, really huge issue, and one on which, um, you played a part, both for Vanderbilt and, uh, obviously in serving for, uh, Judge Wisdom. 00:05:43.853 --> 00:05:48.413 Well, I learned from Judge Wisdom, and, and when I, I was at Vanderbilt before that. 00:05:48.423 --> 00:05:54.353 Well, I came to Vanderbilt in 1958, and, uh, when I enrolled in the undergraduate school, it was all white. 00:05:54.413 --> 00:05:55.242 Mm-hmm. 00:05:55.244 --> 00:06:00.523 At the same year, James Lawson enrolled in the graduate school, an African American minister. 00:06:01.233 --> 00:06:08.432 And on campus here, we undergraduates, our big issues were Charm Week and, and firing the football coach. 00:06:09.550 --> 00:06:18.649 Dr. Lawson was downtown with John Lewis at the beginnings of the Civil Rights Movement, so we were, in effect, sleeping through the revolution here on campus. 00:06:19.180 --> 00:06:23.300 But by 1962, Chancellor Branscomb was about to retire. 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:29.278 That meant we would have to try to recruit a new chancellor to a segregated university. 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:33.029 And he didn't think that would be possible to, to get a distinguished person. 00:06:33.749 --> 00:06:35.369 And I worked with him. 00:06:35.370 --> 00:06:46.100 I was the editor of the newspaper, "The Hustler," and I began to editorialize about it being a cowardly policy not ... to claim to be a great university but not allow Blacks to come. 00:06:46.358 --> 00:06:53.610 Student Senate voted on it, voted it down by one vote— the idea of desegregation, but they provided a campus referendum. 00:06:53.928 --> 00:06:58.548 The students voted it down, but the fuss caused the Board of Trust to change the policy. 00:06:59.108 --> 00:07:06.399 And I can remember that spring, I got a call from the chancellor's office. They said, "The chancellor wants to see you." I said, "Well, I can't come now. 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:08.579 I'm ... got my blue jeans on, my T-shirt. 00:07:08.608 --> 00:07:20.230 I'm getting ready to hitchhike home to East Tennessee." "No, come on." I went over to the chancellor's office, and Dr. Branscomb, the chancellor, said ... there was another tall man there with him, and he said, "Mr. 00:07:20.230 --> 00:07:21.598 Alexander, Mr. Vanderbilt. 00:07:21.608 --> 00:07:23.389 Wow. 00:07:23.718 --> 00:07:26.569 It was Harold Vanderbilt, who's the grandson of the founder of... 00:07:26.569 --> 00:07:27.079 Incredible 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:27.759 ... of Vanderbilt. 00:07:27.778 --> 00:07:32.928 And, and the chancellor said, uh, "Mr. Alexander," ... the chancellor was very correct ... 00:07:33.218 --> 00:07:43.418 "Mr. Alexander, tell Mr. Vanderbilt what the student reaction would be to desegregation of the undergraduate school." So I told him what I'd been writing and spent about 30 minutes there and went on. 00:07:43.649 --> 00:07:43.879 Mm. 00:07:43.949 --> 00:07:47.709 And then the two of them really helped the Board of Trust come to a ... 00:07:47.709 --> 00:07:50.269 the correct decision in the spring of '62. 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:52.000 Incredible. 00:07:52.699 --> 00:07:55.149 And would you say that was the beginning of your political career? 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:58.509 Well, it, I guess it was. 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:02.019 I, I, I caught the political virus early somehow. 00:08:02.029 --> 00:08:06.379 I think it was because my parents encouraged me to respect public life. 00:08:06.408 --> 00:08:09.860 My dad took me to the courthouse to meet the congressman when I was 10. 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:18.329 And he gave me a dime, and I thought I'd never met a more respected man than I was ever likely to meet, other than my father and the preacher. 00:08:19.059 --> 00:08:24.939 And when I went to Tennessee Boys State, I arrived with campaign posters for governor, so I had the virus. 00:08:25.738 --> 00:08:30.329 And at Vanderbilt, I was in the student senate and the editor of the newspaper. 00:08:31.079 --> 00:08:45.620 But that was certainly a political exercise, you know, going through the, uh, changing of deseg... That… It's hard to believe it now, but back then, African Americans in the South, they couldn't find a motel to stay in at night. 00:08:45.629 --> 00:08:55.269 Over in East Tennessee, where I was from, if they went to the University of Tennessee football games, Blacks sat in Section X, which was reserved for African Americans. 00:08:55.269 --> 00:09:00.318 There were no African American players at Vanderbilt or any other Southeastern Conference school who were Black. 00:09:00.899 --> 00:09:08.688 So it was a time a lot of Blacks couldn't vote, very few Black office holders, so 1962 was a different time. 00:09:08.740

--> 00:09:09.948 Yes, yes. 00:09:09.990 --> 00:09:32.490 I mean, just amazing to reflect and to hear the way in which you, as a student, had such a significant opportunity to have impact. And I think of the way in which this book, um, has so many messages that call us to think about how each of us can play a better or a bigger or more forceful role in governance. 00:09:32.490 --> 00:09:46.958 I just, uh, so appreciate you reflecting on that moment, and then to reflect back to the point that you were making earlier about a two-party system and the health of that for a community, for a state, for a region, for the nation. 00:09:47.269 --> 00:09:52.989 It makes me think a lot about our faculty member, Robert Talisse, who was a previous "Quantum Potential" guest. 00:09:53.379 --> 00:09:55.278 Uh, he's in our Department of Philosophy. 00:09:55.349 --> 00:09:55.548 Mm-hmm. 00:09:55.589 --> 00:10:06.389 He talks a lot about the ways in which it's central to the values, um, to the practical values of democracy that you put up with and engage, uh, with respect with your opponent. 00:10:07.264 --> 00:10:07.994 Sure it is. 00:10:08.033 --> 00:10:12.104 And I was lucky enough to be a part of a period in Tennessee where that happened. 00:10:12.803 --> 00:10:27.173 I mean, for about 50 years, nearly 50 years, starting with the '60s, we had a really vigorous two-party system. And it was kind of like the Southeastern Conference, you know, the, the good players wanna play in the Southeastern Conference because that's where the good players are. 00:10:27.182 --> 00:10:27.413 Right. 00:10:27.753 --> 00:10:32.293 And when you have the good players playing, why, you get a better result and a more interesting game. 00:10:32.322 --> 00:10:47.163 And that's what happened in our time because on the Republican side, we had Bill Frist, a heart surgeon, Bob Corker, uh, Bill Brock, Howard Baker. On the Democratic side you had Al Gore, uh, Phil Bredesen, Ned McWherter, people like that. 00:10:47.432 --> 00:10:55.903 And so if, if I would come up as governor with a, a better schools program, the Democrats would be challenged to come up with an even better, better schools program. 00:10:56.523 --> 00:10:57.984 And then we'd have to work it out. 00:10:57.993 --> 00:11:02.503 ... agree because I was a Republican, the legislature was Democratic. 00:11:02.923 --> 00:11:11.464 So the state prospered, and I'm convinced that, that our… When I was elected governor, we were the third- poorest state, third in family incomes. 00:11:11.663 --> 00:11:16.932 I think it was because, in part, of generally mediocre leadership ... 00:11:17.173 --> 00:11:19.783 one-party leadership over 100 years before that. 00:11:20.332 --> 00:11:33.472 During the 1980s and '90s, Tennessee's family incomes grew faster than any other Southern state, and I'm convinced that, in part, it was because we had good leadership produced by competition. 00:11:34.043 --> 00:11:39.552 Well, I love that you credit that to good competition and good leadership without mentioning yourself. 00:11:39.942 --> 00:11:42.732 We'll get to you as governor in just a second. 00:11:42.773 --> 00:11:57.082 I can't wait to discuss, um, the ways in which you really drove a lot of that turnaround, and I think particularly given my own research interest in anti-poverty policy, you know, that story is an incredible one. 00:11:57.582 --> 00:12:05.373 Just to quickly pause on that, I, I guess one can't quickly pause, but just to pause on that, um, run for governor. 00:12:05.442 --> 00:12:31.014 In 1974, after an unsuccessful run, you took another swing at that, um, in 1978 by walking across the state of Tennessee, and you did that… in the book, you outline briefly how you had to really take a good look at yourself in that previous campaign and address sort of the issue of authenticity—that you felt you hadn't been your authentic self. 00:12:31.342 --> 00:12:35.342 And so this walk across Tennessee was a very different approach. 00:12:35.374 --> 00:12:36.614 Can you tell us more about that? 00:12:37.333 --> 00:12:37.714 Sure. 00:12:37.754 --> 00:12:39.504 And, and you, you said it very well. 00:12:39.514 --> 00:12:43.563 I mean, I, I ran in '74, and some people said I was sort of a stuffed shirt. 00:12:43.592 --> 00:13:08.942 And my wife, Honey, was hurt worse by the defeat than I was, so when I came around in '78 and said I wanted to run again, she said, "Now wait a minute." She said, "First you're gonna have to persuade me of why you're running and what you hope to accomplish." And then she said, "Could we have a different campaign mode?" Because she thought I was a pretty dull candidate in '74. 00:13:09.423 --> 00:13:10.863 So we talked about it. 00:13:10.864 --> 00:13:14.393 She said, "Well, do what you like to do. 00:13:10.864 --> 00:13:26.254 You like to walk, you like to meet people, you like the outdoors, you like music." And so I got four guys from the University of Tennessee marching band, flatbed truck, and I walked 1,022 miles across ... 00:13:21.274 --> 00:13:26.254 Cybele: Amazing. Lamar: ... the state over six months. 00:13:26.744 --> 00:13:32.312 We formed Alexander's Washboard Band, and we'd get up on the flatbed truck, and we'd play like I did in New Orleans. 00:13:32.313 --> 00:13:37.643 I'd, I'd play the trombone or the washboard and draw a crowd, make a speech, and go on to the next thing. 00:13:38.072 --> 00:13:48.143 But the most important thing I did was I spent the night with 73 different families, most of whom I'd never met before, and that sunk me ... 00:13:48.163 --> 00:13:52.582 I mean, I'm a seventh-generation Tennessean, so I thought I knew the state, but I, I didn't really. 00:13:53.043 --> 00:14:04.293 It sunk me deep into the character and the stories and the personality of Tennessee, and it made me a much better candidate, and it made me a better governor. 00:14:04.643 --> 00:14:10.234 I love this story, the component of that story about spending the

night with those families. 00:14:10.822 --> 00:14:20.302 Do you think that in those moments you had a chance to learn in the same way that you might have identified time with Judge Wisdom in terms of learning? 00:14:20.583 --> 00:14:21.322 What did you learn? 00:14:21.322 --> 00:14:25.703 How was the time with them in terms of listening and connecting? 00:14:26.023 --> 00:14:33.013 Well, I learned, I learned that, um, Tennesseans had lower incomes than I had realized. 00:14:33.373 --> 00:14:35.182 We were the third-poorest state. 00:14:35.403 --> 00:14:38.493 Only Arkansas and Mississippi were lower in family incomes. 00:14:38.982 --> 00:14:44.712 And to give you an idea of that, I stayed with the Knight family in Lascassas, south of Nashville. 00:14:45.344 --> 00:14:50.724 Uh, she was the school secretary, and he was the postmaster in Lascassas. 00:14:51.352 --> 00:14:54.702 And that night, before her children went to bed, she said, "I'm sad. 00:14:54.734 --> 00:14:56.442 I have smart twin boys. 00:14:57.264 --> 00:15:02.211 They'll never find a job around here. 00:14:57.264 --> 00:15:08.461 And I'll never see my grandchildren." Well, fast-forward a few months, I was elected governor, and President Carter said, "Governors, go to Japan. 00:15:08.481 --> 00:15:17.361 Persuade them to make here what they sell here." Well, no one had ever said to me on my walk across the state, "I sure hope you go to Japan when you're elected," but I did. 00:15:17.552 --> 00:15:18.761 Could you do us a favor and- 00:15:18.761 --> 00:15:19.071 Yeah. 00:15:19.111 --> 00:15:21.091 I met with the Nissan people. 00:15:21.571 --> 00:15:29.442 They were looking for a place to put the largest auto and truck plant in the United States, and they came to Tennessee a year later. 00:15:29.980 --> 00:15:34.211 The end of that story, I mean ... 00:15:29.980 --> 00:15:35.770 Then we had one auto parts supplier in Tennessee, a Ford glass plant. 00:15:35.782 --> 00:15:36.912 Today, we have a thousand. 00:15:36.931 --> 00:15:50.152 So it was the beginning of the arrival of the auto industry, which has really transformed our state, uh, particularly in the Nashville area, but actually everywhere. Because in 88 of our 95 counties, we have auto parts suppliers that we didn't used to have. 00:15:50.162 --> 00:15:50.172 Hmm. 00:15:51.181 --> 00:15:57.850 But Nissan put its plant about 10 miles from Lascassas, where I spent the night with the Knight family. 00:15:57.860 --> 00:15:58.130 Amazing. 00:15:58.311 --> 00:15:58.731 That is so beautiful. 00:15:58.731 --> 00:16:05.160 And 25 years later, one of those smart twin boys of Lillian Knight was the plant manager. 00:16:05.822 --> 00:16:13.331 The other smart twin boy worked there, and the grandson she thought she would never see had just been hired there as an associate. 00:16:13.711 --> 00:16:14.402 Amazing. 00:16:14.620 --> 00:16:22.591 I mean, that, to bring that so full circle must have just been one of those moments in life where you realize what is possible. 00:16:22.691 --> 00:16:26.921 Well, you realize, you realize why you run for public office. 00:16:26.932 --> 00:16:29.221 I mean, you don't do it for the exercise. 00:16:29.251 --> 00:16:30.561 You don't do it to make a speech. 00:16:30.941 --> 00:16:32.311 You didn't really wanna walk across ... 00:16:32.551 --> 00:16:32.802 No. 00:16:32.802 --> 00:16:33.160 ... the entire state. 00:16:33.171 --> 00:16:45.261 Well, and I, it was good exercise, but ... There's a lot of indignities that go into public life, you know, a lot of trouble, a lot of effect on the family and on your reputation and your personality, and it's not worth it. 00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:49.850 I used to tell my colleagues in the Senate, "It's hard to get here. 00:16:50.280 --> 00:16:57.020 It's hard to stay here. And while you're here, you might as well try to accomplish something good for the country." And that's what I tried to do. 00:16:57.020 --> 00:17:09.882 I mean, I wrote the book to try to let people know that I got up every day as governor or senator thinking I might be able to do something good to help my state or country. And I went to bed most nights thinking that I had. 00:17:10.270 --> 00:17:10.471 Amazing. 00:17:10.471 --> 00:17:12.651 And I hope it inspires others to do the same. 00:17:20.351 --> 00:17:25.060 I love the sense of clarity around that—every day should count. 00:17:25.391 --> 00:17:31.361 You know, that that is an incredibly driven, focused way to approach leadership. 00:17:31.381 --> 00:17:34.301 Well, that's sort of a biblical admonition. 00:17:34.301 --> 00:17:39.090 I mean, Psalms 90 has language about, in effect, make every day count. 00:17:39.090 --> 00:17:39.351 Yeah. 00:17:39.801 --> 00:17:41.490 ... teach us to count our days. 00:17:41.541 --> 00:17:41.942 Absolutely. 00:17:41.971 --> 00:17:44.121 And that's an important part of life. 00:17:44.441 --> 00:18:00.840 In that sense, I think in your book, you also recount the ways in which you didn't just affect or change for the better the economic fortunes of Tennessee's families, but that you also dramatically shifted people's sense of morale, sense of self-confidence. 00:18:01.211 --> 00:18:09.230 You highlight in the book a period I remember well, when Hollywood, I don't think, did us any favors with their depiction of the American South, right? 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:30.401 "Dukes of Hazzard" or "Beverly Hillbillies." You know, I was growing up in New York City in an apartment as a little kid watching shows that depicted the South in those ways. And you describe the way that that was really demoralizing and that members of the community of Knoxville, for example, had to live with the reputation of being part of a scruffy little town, I think you, you describe it. 00:18:30.401 --> 00:18:30.411 Yeah. 00:18:30.411 --> 00:18:38.221 That "The Wall Street Journal" had called it that even though, you know, Oak Ridge Laboratory was the nation's largest laboratory, energy

laboratory. 00:18:38.221 --> 00:18:46.871 That TVA was the nation's largest utility company, that the Great Smokies national park was the most visited national park. 00:18:46.871 --> 00:18:54.671 You make these great points about this, you know, region's strengths, but that its own members of our communities here did not feel that way. 00:18:55.030 --> 00:18:55.290 Yeah. 00:18:55.801 --> 00:19:03.041 We Tennesseans in 1978, '79, I thought had a lack of self-confidence that was not necessary. 00:19:04.046 --> 00:19:05.685 You know, I'm, I'm from the mountains. 00:19:05.726 --> 00:19:11.796 You know, for a century, do-gooders had come down to "help" the hillbillies. 00:19:12.215 --> 00:19:15.195 And, and, and caric- you know, caric- caric- Cybele: I hear there's quotes... 00:19:15.195 --> 00:19:16.815 There are quotes around that word even though you didn't make it. 00:19:16.815 --> 00:19:19.056 caricatured, caricatured hillbillies. 00:19:19.465 --> 00:19:22.125 And, you know, there were the residue of the Civil War. 00:19:22.135 --> 00:19:24.055 The whites were defeated. 00:19:24.066 --> 00:19:26.005 The Blacks had been enslaved. 00:19:26.726 --> 00:19:42.474 I remember after Saturn came here, Honey and I had the Saturn executives from General Motors for dinner. And we served them country ham and fried okra, you know, a Tennessee dinner, and had Charlie McCoy play the harmonica in the living room after dinner. 00:19:43.115 --> 00:19:57.865 And afterwards, a Nashville guest said to me, "Oh, Governor, I'm so embarrassed." I said, "Why?" He said, "That harmonica player…" He said,"Why, what will those fine people from Grosse Pointe, Michigan, think of us? 00:19:58.095 --> 00:20:06.265 Why didn't you offer them Chopin?" And I said, "Why should I offer them average Chopin when we've got the best harmonica player in the world?" 00:20:06.276 --> 00:20:06.306 Right. 00:20:06.835 --> 00:20:09.836 So Nashville was reluctant to be called Music City. 00:20:09.875 --> 00:20:10.066 Mm. 00:20:10.384 --> 00:20:12.464 Memphis was trying to be Nashville. 00:20:12.734 --> 00:20:19.214 Chattanooga was embarrassed about being the dirtiest city, according to Walter Cronkite in 1969. 00:20:19.214 --> 00:20:23.575 Knoxvillians, they didn't like being called a scruffy city. 00:20:23.595 --> 00:20:25.545 Upper East Tennessee felt left out. 00:20:26.144 --> 00:20:31.964 And what I tried to do was to change that. 00:20:26.144 --> 00:20:31.964 And winning was part of it, like being ... 00:20:32.424 --> 00:20:40.195 getting the Nissan plant and the Saturn plant when every other state wanted it. Being the first state to pay teachers more for teaching well. 00:20:40.204 --> 00:20:43.816 Building the, what the truckers said were the best four-lane highway system. 00:20:43.825 --> 00:20:46.555 All that was showing we could do it better than others. 00:20:47.095 --> 00:20:52.559 Then we had this thing called Tennessee Homecoming, which sounds very boring. 00:20:52.569 --> 00:21:05.699 When I suggested it, a lot of legislators went to sleep, but it, it asked every community to find something to celebrate, and then invite everybody who'd ever lived there to come back in that year of 1986 and, and celebrate it. 00:21:05.898 --> 00:21:14.569 Well, that caused people to focus on themselves—who they were, not who they weren't—and it raised self-confidence. 00:21:14.569 --> 00:21:17.288 They set higher goals, and when you set higher goals, you reach them. 00:21:17.819 --> 00:21:22.179 An example is—the Southern Festival of Books came out of that process. 00:21:22.329 --> 00:21:22.759 Love that. 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:27.179 And Vanderbilt now, of course, has stepped in to be the principal sponsor of the Southern Festival of Books ... 00:21:27.179 --> 00:21:28.509 Yes, I was very excited to do that last year. 00:21:28.509 --> 00:21:32.058 ...which, which came up out of the Tennessee Homecoming in 1986. 00:21:32.249 --> 00:21:32.472 I did not realize that history. 00:21:32.472 --> 00:21:36.618 Celebration of literature, celebration of literature in, in the South. 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:38.249 So amazing. 00:21:38.388 --> 00:21:49.888 Such an incredible way of thinking about leadership—not simply about trying to address jobs, but to address, you know, the, the mindset of the community, um, that we serve. 00:21:50.269 --> 00:21:59.239 And that idea of demonstrating or expecting a level of excellence, of course, appeals dramatically and of ... you know, to me here 00:21:59.239 --> 00:22:02.250 Yeah, that's ... you spend all day every day doing that. 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:07.480 But we think a lot about what winning looks like and what winning means. 00:22:07.788 --> 00:22:13.759 And I would, you know, immediately wanna know, what do you think winning means now in the 21st century? 00:22:14.038 --> 00:22:21.128 Well, winning for, for, for a person, for a family, for an individual, I think you want a happy life. 00:22:21.588 --> 00:22:23.749 You want a life that's productive. 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:36.778 I mean, I was taught growing up 2 Timothy 2:15, that, which my mother interpreted, uh, that, you know, God gave you a gift, so make the best of it. And she, she took some liberties with that. 00:22:36.778 --> 00:22:41.699 She'd say, "God gave us this beautiful October day so we could rake leaves," you know, so... 00:22:42.429 --> 00:22:42.628 Use it to... 00:22:42.628 --> 00:22:46.009 ...he gave you the gift of music 00:22:46.098 --> 00:22:50.299 30 and practice the piano before you go to school. 00:22:50.398 --> 00:22:54.259 But, but I think you look for your calling, you look for your gift. 00:22:54.269 --> 00:23:10.819 So we, we wanna train, I think, people at Vanderbilt, uh, uh, wherever they are, uh, we, we want them to be happy in a difficult world, and we want them to find each person's gift, and then make the best of that, and, and hopefully serving other people in the process. 00:23:11.019 --> 00:23:22.950 Love the

focus of that, the sense of meeting one's human potential, one's capabilities, uh, and one's opportunities sort of combining to meet that highest form of potential. 00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:25.859 In the ministry they, they say it's a calling. 00:23:25.869 --> 00:23:34.648 You know, when life's greatest… When the country's greatest need, uh, is consistent with your greatest joy, then you've found your calling. 00:23:34.648 --> 00:23:45.368 And when I lost the presidential race, my brother-in-law, who's a preacher, said, "Think of it as a reverse calling." That I may have thought it was a great idea, but the people didn't. 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:46.109 Well. 00:23:54.453 --> 00:23:56.013 Thanks for listening to this episode. 00:23:56.453 --> 00:24:01.394 If this conversation resonates with you, I invite you to explore our earlier episodes. 00:24:01.894 --> 00:24:10.282 We've talked with such an incredibly wide range of experts about democracy, about technology, about art and the future of society. 00:24:10.653 --> 00:24:11.304 Thanks for listening. 00:24:15.693 --> 00:24:24.124 Before we move to your run for presidency, Senator, I thought we would just talk a little bit about, um, your incredible dedication to education in your role as governor. 00:24:24.542 --> 00:24:42.153 It was really clear from the description in your book that you understood that you didn't wanna just draw plants to the state, that you actually wanted to make investments in human capital, in growing people's capacity to start their own businesses, to create new jobs. 00:24:42.232 --> 00:24:44.313 Talk a little bit about, um, education. 00:24:44.323 --> 00:24:49.883 Why are you so deeply committed to education— you ended up being president of University of Tennessee. 00:24:50.304 --> 00:24:55.833 You know, you've made incredibly huge interjections, interventions in education policy. 00:24:55.913 --> 00:25:00.492 I'm really excited to hear more about, you know, you were U.S. Secretary of Education. 00:25:00.492 --> 00:25:01.314 It's amazing. 00:25:01.432 --> 00:25:03.482 Well, I give my parents the first credit. 00:25:03.482 --> 00:25:09.323 I mean, they're both teachers, and so I understood the value of education. 00:25:09.863 --> 00:25:12.423 I mean, there wasn't any question about my going to college. 00:25:12.452 --> 00:25:17.383 I remember I applied to Vanderbilt and to Duke and to UT. Those were the three. 00:25:18.443 --> 00:25:24.824 And, uh, didn't have any money, so when Duke gave me a $600 scholarship, I called Mr. 00:25:24.824 --> 00:25:32.963 Buford, who was the director of admissions and said, "If you'll give me…" I said, "I'd prefer to stay in state, but if you'll give me $600, I'll go to Vanderbilt," and he did. 00:25:33.472 --> 00:25:33.512 Great. 00:25:33.523 --> 00:25:40.472 A little negotiation goes a long way. Lamar: Education was a, I, I don't think you can do that today, but that's what I did then. 00:25:41.163 --> 00:25:46.762 But the, the importance of education ... 00:25:41.163 --> 00:26:03.344 I figured out pretty quickly. If I were trying to raise family income, that was the goal, that I couldn't recruit enough jobs to do that. Because I could recruit 7,000 or help recruit 7,000 Nissan jobs, but in the economy we have, jobs disappear every year in the hundreds of thousands. 00:26:03.803 --> 00:26:07.564 So we would have to grow our own, and how do you grow your own? 00:26:07.574 --> 00:26:12.074 Well, you, you have to have skills, and you, you learn skills in schools. 00:26:12.472 --> 00:26:21.873 So we needed better schools, and we needed better universities. And that led me to a major focus on education, where we did a whole variety of things. 00:26:21.873 --> 00:26:25.333 We became the first state to pay teachers more for teaching well. 00:26:25.344 --> 00:26:27.353 That was a big brawl with the teachers union. 00:26:27.594 --> 00:26:28.542 I was gonna say, that was a tough fight. 00:26:28.542 --> 00:26:28.952 Yeah. 00:26:29.103 --> 00:26:43.682 We created summer schools for, for gifted children called Governor's Schools, which are still going today. And thousands and thousands of Tennessee students have had a, an experience in the summer that, uh, that helped advance them further. 00:26:43.692 --> 00:26:57.403 We created, uh, 100, uh, Chairs of Excellence, which the state put in a half million dollars, and they raised a half million dollars at our state universities, created Centers of Excellence at the universities. 00:26:57.573 --> 00:27:09.963 So I, I tried to do everything I could to encourage the universities toward excellence, at least Centers of Excellence within the universities that we had, and appointing good people to the boards, all of that. 00:27:10.222 --> 00:27:19.713 I thought that would create an environment in which we could grow jobs, better jobs, and raise family incomes, which again, was the goal. 00:27:20.163 --> 00:27:22.693 And you were so successful in that endeavor, right? 00:27:22.722 --> 00:27:32.272 I mean, the statistics that you provided at the beginning of our conversation, the way in which Tennessee moved forward so much more quickly in terms of raising family income. 00:27:32.282 --> 00:27:32.303 Yeah. 00:27:32.303 --> 00:27:42.993 Dean, Dean Mary Anne Wanamaker at the… who's a Vanderbilt summa cum laude graduate, by the way, is dean of the Howard Baker College of Public Policy at the University of Tennessee Knoxville. 00:27:43.423 --> 00:27:44.492 She's an economist. 00:27:45.228 --> 00:27:58.768 And she did some studies that show that, as I said earlier, after we got everything going, by the mid-1980s into the 1990s, Tennessee family incomes grew rapidly than any other Southern state. 00:27:59.317 --> 00:27:59.407 Mm. So amazing. 00:27:59.407 --> 00:28:07.247 They went from about 81 or 2% of the national average to 91 or 2%, and have stayed at that level for the last 30 or 40 years. 00:28:07.257 --> 00:28:10.217 Just so incredibly impressive. Really,

Senator. 00:28:10.538 --> 00:28:12.836 Thank you on behalf of everyone who can thank you. 00:28:12.836 --> 00:28:15.676 Well, I didn't… I mean, I was a part of that, I hope. 00:28:16.038 --> 00:28:23.627 I mean, mean, the, the auto industry came, all these things happened, but, but anybody in public life knows that some things are gonna happen anyway. 00:28:24.027 --> 00:28:28.676 But Nissan might have been in Georgia, or Saturn might have been in Kentucky. 00:28:28.678 --> 00:28:32.567 We might not have gotten all those suppliers if we hadn't built the roads. 00:28:32.567 --> 00:28:39.537 So I think the Democrats in the legislature and I made a difference in terms of that result by working together. 00:28:39.586 --> 00:28:39.977 Yes. 00:28:40.116 --> 00:29:04.807 I mean, just for the point, um, that you make about inspiring younger adults to think about public service— I guess the reason that I highlight that is because there, I think, is often a sort of tenor, a tone in the air that public roles, public office doesn't necessarily make a difference. And it's just so clear to me that that kind of leadership does make a difference. 00:29:04.807 --> 00:29:09.027 Well, you see it every day at the university, but I mean, in federal policies, state policies. 00:29:09.176 --> 00:29:14.458 I mean, a Vanderbilt person, Bill Frist, provides a great example of how it makes a difference. 00:29:14.967 --> 00:29:20.916 He founded Vanderbilt's, uh, heart-lung organ transplant center, which now is the largest in the world, I guess. 00:29:20.926 --> 00:29:21.426 Exactly. 00:29:21.467 --> 00:29:23.498 But he came to see me in 1994. 00:29:23.498 --> 00:29:24.926 I was getting ready to run for president. 00:29:24.926 --> 00:29:26.307 I don't think he'd ever even voted. 00:29:26.926 --> 00:29:30.037 He said, "I'm gonna run for the Senate." I said, "Why would you do that? 00:29:30.047 --> 00:29:50.777 Why would you give up being one of the leading transplant surgeons?" And he said, "Well, today I can fly down to Chattanooga, cut out a heart, try to get back to Vanderbilt Hospital in four hours in an Igloo cooler with ice, do an eight-hour operation, and maybe a person will stop me on the street and thank me for saving his or her life. 00:29:51.086 --> 00:29:57.487 If I'm a senator, maybe I could save a million lives." He was elected, became majority leader. 00:29:57.498 --> 00:29:57.528 Yes. 00:29:57.537 --> 00:29:58.728 Worked with George W. Bush. 00:29:58.748 --> 00:30:03.137 They saved 23 million lives with PEPFAR for people with HIV/AIDS. 00:30:03.137 --> 00:30:07.708 Now, Bill Frist couldn't have done that in private life. 00:30:07.718 --> 00:30:07.748 Yes. 00:30:07.757 --> 00:30:12.607 He did a lot of good in private life, but he couldn't have done that, and that's what I learned too. 00:30:12.616 --> 00:30:27.448 The, whether it was helping to recruit Nissan as a governor or a 21st Century Cures bill that, that moves medical miracles through the FDA and into patients' lives more rapidly, you can't do that as a private citizen. 00:30:27.448 --> 00:30:32.797 You have to be elected or appointed to public office to do it. 00:30:33.297 --> 00:30:39.544 So we need a steady stream of really talented people to spend some of their life doing that. 00:30:39.723 --> 00:30:42.614 Such vibrant examples, so incredible. 00:30:43.114 --> 00:30:52.722 And what can university leaders, what can institutions dedicated to learning like ours, what can people like me learn from public leaders in that way? 00:30:53.323 --> 00:30:55.054 Well, I think you're doing that. 00:30:55.093 --> 00:31:12.782 Vanderbilt's doing a good job, and I see that as a Board of Trust member, in giving students examples of how public life makes a difference, and second, how to conduct themselves with differences of opinion so they can be effective in public life. 00:31:12.792 --> 00:31:21.792 I mean, I couldn't get a result on, let's say, paying teachers more for teaching well, if I didn't know how to work with people with whom I disagree. 00:31:21.792 --> 00:31:22.163 Yes. 00:31:22.163 --> 00:31:22.183 Yes. 00:31:22.183 --> 00:31:23.292 That's Democrats. 00:31:23.313 --> 00:31:23.702 Yes. 00:31:24.262 --> 00:31:27.542 And, and s- the same in Washington. 00:31:27.554 --> 00:31:29.693 We, we fixed No Child Left Behind. 00:31:29.913 --> 00:31:34.502 W- gradually, we had pushed all these decisions about K through 12 education to Washington. 00:31:34.874 --> 00:32:16.314 I thought they should come back home, but I had to persuade Patty Murray, a liberal Democratic senator from Washington State, to agree with me on this, and when I first tried, I put my bill out there and said, "We'll do it this way, and you can amend it if you want." She says,"No, we won't." And I thought she was dead wrong because I thought I had the right procedure, but then I remembered Senator Baker saying, "Remember, the other fellow might be right." And I thought,"Well, the other lady might be right." Says, "Okay, we'll do it your way." And so we got a result that President Obama called a Christmas miracle, and "The Wall Street Journal" said moved more decisions from Washington back to the states than any other law in twenty-five years. 00:32:16.343 --> 00:32:16.893 Amazing. 00:32:16.942 --> 00:32:40.942 So Vanderbilt is, by its courses, I've attended some of them, by its lectures, by its Dialogue Vanderbilt, all of… bringing all these people to the campus so students can see them and listen. Hopefully they'll be inspired to do what, to learn what Bill Frist learned and to learn what I learned, that if you really wanna change things, you better make some time in your life for public life. 00:32:40.972 --> 00:32:41.482 Yes. 00:32:41.623 --> 00:32:44.223 I mean, so incredibly important. 00:32:44.232 --> 00:32:52.452 I think the model that we really function with and that I really hope to champion is that idea of moving from learning to leading, right? 00:32:52.462 -->

00:32:52.492 Mm-hmm. 00:32:52.503 --> 00:33:09.363 That those skills are initially about how to acquire knowledge or how to a- sharpen your ability to think clearly and, you know, comprehensively and deeply about a problem to actually how to use those skills in, in the world around you so that you can lead effectively. 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:27.490 With that in mind, I would love to shift to the idea of you running for president of the United States. 00:33:27.669 --> 00:33:30.068 This is incredibly big for me. 00:33:30.099 --> 00:33:36.579 Um, you are the first person whom I've spoken with or interviewed who has run for the U.S. presidency. 00:33:36.579 --> 00:33:37.329 Well, there are a bunch of them. 00:33:38.138 --> 00:33:52.358 I know Senator Ernest Hollings from South Carolina announced for president years ago, and the media said, "How many members of the Senate think about running for president?" And he said, "Every damn one, every damn day." 00:33:53.539 --> 00:33:57.588 Well, suffice to say, it's a big moment for me. 00:33:57.628 --> 00:33:57.659 Yeah. 00:33:59.378 --> 00:34:11.019 The audacity with which you ran, the idea of calling for smaller government to a large group of people in Washington— many of whom were your friends—is an amazing part of this book. 00:34:11.028 --> 00:34:32.059 It's just an incredible story. And I just think so often about how much that took tremendous character and integrity to stand up for something that you actually forcefully believed and viewed as true among a peer group who, uh, were probably not that thrilled with that idea, that they were gonna get cuts in pay and be sent home. 00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:34.670 ...if you wanna reflect on that moment. 00:34:34.670 --> 00:34:40.489 Well, they didn't like that, but, that's a generous description. 00:34:37.208 --> 00:34:40.489 But that, that was what I said. 00:34:40.519 --> 00:34:43.619 I, I mean, it captured it pretty well— cut their pay and send them home. 00:34:43.630 --> 00:34:46.858 Well, the members of Congress didn't like to hear that. 00:34:46.867 --> 00:34:47.217 Yeah. 00:34:47.757 --> 00:34:56.327 What I was really saying was that we could, we should have a citizen legislature and cut their pay, but allow them to earn a living like we 00:34:56.327 --> 00:34:57.807 ...in the state. 00:34:57.818 --> 00:34:57.838 Yeah. 00:34:57.847 --> 00:35:00.818 You know, they, they're here until April. 00:35:01.297 --> 00:35:02.666 They don't give up their jobs. 00:35:02.706 --> 00:35:03.061 They go back to their day jobs. 00:35:03.061 --> 00:35:03.099 Yeah. 00:35:03.099 --> 00:35:09.188 And we have con- we have conflict of interest rules, and they don't always work, but they work most of the time. 00:35:09.757 --> 00:35:17.626 And for much of our country's history, we had part-time citizen legislators who would be in Washington only for part of the year. 00:35:18.197 --> 00:35:22.777 And then we have citizen legislators like Bill Frist, who would only serve two terms. 00:35:23.166 --> 00:35:23.376 Yes. 00:35:23.927 --> 00:35:32.186 So, um, what, what I was trying to say was that we need to expect less from Washington, D.C., and more of ourselves. 00:35:32.217 --> 00:35:34.476 We've got a big, complicated country. 00:35:34.476 --> 00:35:44.217 de Tocqueville walked across it in the early 1800s and, and observed that America was organized community by community, and it really grew from the bottom up. 00:35:44.427 --> 00:35:50.117 And, and our federal government was limited, and it reserved to the states most of the powers. 00:35:50.117 --> 00:35:53.027 Didn't give them the powers, it reserved the, them the powers. 00:35:53.036 --> 00:35:54.958 And we've gotten away from that. 00:35:54.958 --> 00:35:57.126 I mean, we've got- we've had national school boards. 00:35:57.128 --> 00:36:07.898 There was a proposal this year from the Trump administration for a, what I thought was a basically a national board of trust to try to govern 6,000 universities. 00:36:07.898 --> 00:36:10.148 Well, that's a genuinely bad idea. 00:36:10.427 --> 00:36:13.867 I mean, there's nobody with the capacity to do that to begin with. 00:36:13.867 --> 00:36:17.327 And second, you wanna have all different kinds of universities. 00:36:17.327 --> 00:36:22.086 You want some of, you know, all different kinds of universities, so... 00:36:22.246 --> 00:36:34.838 Well to your point earlier, right, you, you point out in the book, for example, that Pell Grants are essentially vouchers to... Lamar: Yeah, they are... undergraduate students to foster healthy competition between universities, and it… I loved that point. 00:36:34.887 --> 00:36:42.467 Well, and for example, if students get tired of all the politics at the northeastern schools, and they think Vanderbilt sound better, they 00:36:42.467 --> 00:36:43.547 Come here, 00:36:43.547 --> 00:36:47.626 ...with their student loan or with their Pell Grant if they have one. 00:36:48.186 --> 00:36:51.697 Or if they wanna go to a small liberal arts college, they can choose that. 00:36:51.697 --> 00:36:53.907 If they wanna go to a Catholic college, they could choose that. 00:36:53.907 --> 00:36:58.697 If they wanna go to Hillsdale College with a more conservative reputation, they can, they can do that. 00:36:58.697 --> 00:36:59.376 Do that, right. 00:36:59.976 --> 00:37:04.907 Uh, so that freedom is a big part of the strength of our higher education system. 00:37:05.536 --> 00:37:19.128 In terms of thinking about turning back to this question of building, and just to wrap us up, I think a lot about the ways in which, um, we have so much anxiety about our institutions being torn down or being under siege in some ways. 00:37:19.217 --> 00:37:29.306 But you are very clear throughout this book that we have weathered so many other moments in history by being problem-solvers, by being great at building things. 00:37:29.307 --> 00:37:34.097 And I just wanted to ask you to share a little bit about the sources

of your hope. 00:37:35.170 --> 00:37:42.809 Well, one source is that we've, we've had people asking the question,"Can we survive this?" ever since the Revolutionary War 250 years ago. 00:37:42.820 --> 00:37:46.219 I mean, and we've had tougher times than today. 00:37:46.670 --> 00:37:49.860 I mean, the beginning of the country was one of those. 00:37:49.869 --> 00:37:52.248 The lead-up to the Civil War was one. 00:37:52.250 --> 00:37:57.510 The Civil War, the Reconstruction, the two great wars, the recession. 00:37:58.449 --> 00:38:07.860 I mean, even in the '70s, even in our more recent lifetime, you know, the fight over women's rights and Vietnam, uh, that was a tough, tough time. 00:38:08.389 --> 00:38:12.599 So we've had those times before, and we have all these assets. 00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:19.449 I, I think I get a little impatient every now and then with people who think the country doesn't have what it takes. 00:38:19.449 --> 00:38:29.083 I mean, we produce 26% of all the money in the world for 4% of the world's people. We have most of the best universities, of which this is one. 00:38:29.423 --> 00:38:31.804 We're the ones who create the vaccines. 00:38:31.804 --> 00:38:33.483 We have the strongest military. 00:38:33.494 --> 00:38:35.574 This is the place you wanna start a company. 00:38:36.454 --> 00:38:39.143 This is the country everybody wants to come live in. 00:38:39.264 --> 00:38:40.733 People aren't trying to leave here. 00:38:41.304 --> 00:38:48.693 So we've got everything it takes to have an even greater country, but we have to remember how we got here, and that required building. 00:38:49.173 --> 00:38:53.893 You know, the speaker, Sam Rayburn, said, "Any jackass can kick down a barn." 00:38:53.902 --> 00:38:53.913 Mm. 00:38:54.563 --> 00:39:14.393 "It takes a good carpenter to build one." And when we created the National Institutes of Health or the Medicare or Medicaid or our military institutions, or even the institutions of our country— the Supreme Court, the presidency, and the legislature—we were building. 00:39:14.532 --> 00:39:31.882 So we need to keep building, and we need to find a way to, in this what I call digital democracy, when social media drives us so much to the extremes, to do what Vanderbilt ... Dialogue Vanderbilt does, which is to teach ourselves, students and 00:39:32.182 --> 00:39:35.603 Yes. 00:39:35.612 --> 00:39:37.733 ... when you disagree. 00:39:38.012 --> 00:39:39.623 That shouldn't be that hard. 00:39:39.634 --> 00:39:54.264 I mean, I remember going into the Senate when I worked for Senator Baker, John Tower of Texas, conservative, Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota, liberal, they'd have a huge fight on the Senate floor over labor policy, and after that, they would hug each other. 00:39:54.643 --> 00:39:56.952 Yes. 00:39:57.422 --> 00:39:58.733 ... and still get along. 00:39:59.103 --> 00:40:03.693 And I'm afraid social media and the internet have made it harder for us to do that. 00:40:03.693 --> 00:40:09.873 We need to tame the algorithms and do more of what you're doing with Dialogue Vanderbilt. 00:40:10.012 --> 00:40:10.092 That's great. 00:40:10.123 --> 00:40:30.043 Or as Chancellor Diermeier says, quoting Chancellor Heard from my time, that we're not here to protect the students from ideas, we're here to expose them to ideas and teach them to deal with those ideas respectfully, with a hope that one day they might have ideas of their own. 00:40:30.143 --> 00:40:30.342 Indeed. 00:40:30.344 --> 00:40:36.932 That's still a pretty good formula for how to, how to live in the digital democracy that we have. 00:40:36.972 --> 00:40:38.282 Beautifully said, Senator. 00:40:38.284 --> 00:40:43.213 I totally, totally agree and appreciate the clarity of that statement. 00:40:43.793 --> 00:40:46.434 Any last words that you'd like to share with our listeners? 00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:56.568 No, I, just from my vantage point, it's been terrific to be on the Vanderbilt University Board of Trust with Chancellor Diermeier's leadership and your leadership. 00:40:56.579 --> 00:40:57.818 You've got the tough job. 00:40:58.148 --> 00:41:01.579 Provost, provost is the hard job at university. I know that. 00:41:01.588 --> 00:41:02.028 Thank you very much. 00:41:02.028 --> 00:41:02.128 And, 744 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:05.769 Means a lot coming from you... 00:41:05.778 --> 00:41:07.989 ... as the former president of the university as 00:41:07.989 --> 00:41:19.539 … but, but, but, uh, but I think Vanderbilt, uh, graduates or people who admire Vanderbilt should feel very good about this university and, and what it's trying to do and the leadership it's showing in higher education. 00:41:19.539 --> 00:41:29.858 I mean, it's, it's, it's emphasizing, uh, merit and excellence and dialogue and learning, and I think students who come here have a good time. 00:41:29.858 --> 00:41:30.548 They enjoy it. 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:31.088 Indeed. 00:41:31.318 --> 00:41:37.438 And, and they learn, and they're getting prepared for a very different kind of world, which is what, what, what we need to do. 00:41:37.858 --> 00:41:38.639 Incredible. 00:41:38.989 --> 00:41:45.329 Thank you so much, both for the personal shout-out and also for the wonderful, wonderful conversation. 00:41:45.438 --> 00:41:46.458 Thank you for having me. 00:41:47.188 --> 00:42:00.119 You are just an amazing leader, honestly, Senator, and your career reminds us that institutions matter, that democracy requires stewardship, and thoughtful leadership can leave a lasting impact across generations. 00:42:07.213 --> 00:42:10.182 The "Quantum Potential" podcast comes from Vanderbilt University. 00:42:10.793 --> 00:42:16.313 I'm your host, Cybele Raver, provost and vice chancellor for academic affairs with Vanderbilt University. 00:42:17.054 --> 00:42:31.244 Such deep thanks to our guest, Lamar Alexander, Vanderbilt alumnus, member of the university's Board of Trust, former U.S. secretary of education, former governor of Tennessee and former United States senator for joining us today. 00:42:32.123 --> 00:42:36.072 This episode was edited and mixed by the team at Sound On, Sound Off. 00:42:36.364 --> 00:42:40.373 You can learn more about their work at soundonsoundoff.com. 00:42:41.172 --> 00:42:47.393 For more information about"Quantum Potential," go to vanderbilt.edu/quantumpotential. 00:42:47.583 --> 00:42:50.523 Thank you for joining us today for the "Quantum Potential" podcast. 00:42:51.382 --> 00:42:56.572 Stay tuned for more conversations with the thinkers and innovators reshaping our world. 00:42:57.193 --> 00:43:01.163 I'm Cybele Raver, and this has been "Quantum Potential."