บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ #20 Greece - Forging a Nation through Revolution and Civil War

about your biography in a minute, you don't usually live in Greece though, do you? 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:26.480 No, no, I'm actually in between, in between Scotland and Greece, because I work at the University of Endidra in Scotland the last two years. 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:35.279 So now I'm getting used to this uh, you know, going from Greece and from Scotland to Greece and from Greece to Scotland. 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:41.759 Uh but you know the funny part is that Endidra, uh the nickname of Endidra is the Athens of the North. 00:04:41.920 --> 00:05:00.399 It came from the Scottish themselves when they tried to replicate uh like ancient Greek buildings uh and use the neoclassical uh architectural style to rebuild Endidra in the late 18th century and uh the early United century. 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:05.199 So, you know, it's it's funny because I moved from Athens and went to the Athens of the North. 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:08.399 I believe it's not the only European city where that was attempted. 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.519 I think Munich in Bavaria is very much like that. 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:13.759 I think we'll talk about that in a minute. 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:20.160 Um, first of all, again, most people wouldn't have heard about 1821 connecting it to Greek history. 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:22.000 Why should people know about it? 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:32.560 Well, A, because it was one of the revolutions that took place in a very peculiar and actually very interesting revolutionary wave. 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:47.439 More or less the third revolutionary wave, if we take the French Revolution, the American Revolution as being revolutions as being the first revolutionary wave, then we go to the second, which is the 1810s and the Latin American Revolutions, including, of course, the Haitian one. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:06:09.120 And then the third one is the wave that takes place in Southern Europe in Southern Europe, roughly speaking, uh, and includes the case, the cases of Spain, Portugal, the Italian peninsula, and the Balkan Peninsula, that means the Greek Revolutions, it's part of a very wider moment in the history of the revolution. 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:17.920 The second reason is more Greek, if you want, because it was uh the founding moment of the modern Greek state. 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:28.560 So it's it's one of the rare uh moments that we have in European history at the time that there is a revolution, and out of this revolution came a new state. 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:51.120 Uh so it you know some provinces seceded from the Ottoman Empire, and uh uh we had the foundation, the creation of a new state, which in itself, you know, if you think about the times, was like a big moment, a watershed in European history, uh, not least because it was the first time that the Ottoman Empire lost territory. 00:06:51.439 --> 00:07:00.480 And then you had like a new state being born, new European state being born at the far end uh of uh the

European continent. 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.439 So that in itself is of course uh important. 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:12.800 Speaking of the Ottoman Empire, so that was interesting to learn that this was the beginning of the end, really, because it just went downhill from there for the next hundred years for the Ottomans. 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:18.560 And for everyone who wants to know more, please check out our episode on the fall, the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:22.000 We just released that a few weeks ago with Professor Adrian Jones. 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:25.600 He's an expert on the Ottoman Empire, the late period. 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:27.680 However, 100 years earlier today. 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:29.680 Christos, back to you. 00:07:29.839 --> 00:07:35.920 Now, as I said, if it wasn't for Butchka, I probably wouldn't really have heard about the Greek revolution of 1821. 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:37.920 And yes, it went on for quite a few more years. 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:39.920 And um, there's other names for it too. 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:42.800 Some people call it the Greek um, you know, independence war. 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:56.000 And so it's the same historic event with different names, but in uh in your upbringing, and being aware that you didn't grow up in Greece, but you grew up in the Greek community, you know, um you speak the language in your childhood and today. 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:59.279 How important is this event still in Greek culture? 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:00.720 It's very important. 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:20.319 Um there are two significant dates in the Greek uh festive calendar, and uh one is the 28th of October, where Metaxas, back then the um the Prime Minister, um, said no to the um ambassador from Italy when they wanted to come to Greece. 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:36.799 Other one is the uh 25th of March, which uh is the um yeah, the beginning of the revolution, even though the date is not exact that, because it was not a start of uh a revolution exactly on that date. 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:46.240 But um it was later established uh by uh Otto, the German uh king that was established. 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:46.639 Yeah. 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:52.799 Um back then it was uh determined that the 25th of March um is the start of the revolution. 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.039 So it confirming it's a public holiday in Greece. 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:55.840 Absolutely. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:08.320 Okay, it's a public holiday, it's um it is celebrated with uh parades, yeah, military parades, school parades um through all the country. 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.519 Even every village uh has their own parade. 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:11.919 Yeah. 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:14.480 So and as a kid you grow up with that. 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:17.200 So yeah, Michalis, is can you confirm that? 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.200 So you live in Athens a fair bit. 00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:25.360 So is that public holiday

a big deal, and therefore that's an excuse to talk about the topic and it's in living memory? 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.559 Good memories of your childhood are the days that you don't go to school or you don't have to go to school. 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:37.519 And it's a moment when people discuss the event itself, you know, reassess, revisit it. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:43.039 Uh not always in the most productive way, if I can say that. 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.759 We will talk about that more probably later. 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:47.840 Uh but it is a day of celebration. 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:56.960 And and like the uh exactly like Christus said, uh it's interesting that in Greece we celebrate the resistance days in both cases. 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:03.200 It's resist it's the resistance against the Ottomans in the first case, against the Germans and Italians in the second. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:06.559 And I'm saying that because it's not always the case. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:12.879 Uh in other countries, in many other countries, um they celebrate actually the end of the war. 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:16.879 In Greece, we celebrate the beginnings of the war, which is interesting. 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:18.879 Uh some people have criticized that. 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:23.759 To be honest, I think you know, celebrating resistance, it's not a bad idea. 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:30.480 And I think it's important for people, uh, well, listeners in particular, um, to understand who who grew up in countries that were never occupied, right? 00:10:30.559 --> 00:10:33.679 There's a few countries out there that just have never gone through this. 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:46.000 But for countries who were living under oppression under rule of a foreign nation, it's a it's an important, and I think of the Polish people, for example, who similar to the Greeks were occupied centuries, right? 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.240 And it was such a big moment when the when the Polish nation first came together again. 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:55.519 Um, America is a bit different because it was a colony, but there's other countries that that lived under occupation. 00:10:55.759 --> 00:11:02.879 So is is is freedom and national sovereignty more important to Greek people than people from other countries? 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.440 Well, yes, uh, probably. 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:22.080 Not just because we have to take into account, because you mentioned also the Polish case, uh, that exactly as you said, that there were usually greater powers controlling uh or ruling over some of the territories that actually made uh the Greek state. 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:29.759 Um, but also that Greece, like also many other countries, not uh the Polish case, is a fairly small state. 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:45.120 And all these uh fairly small states, and you can think of many uh of course in the European continent, especially, but also in the Middle East and elsewhere, you know, they always had to negotiate their existence with the great powers or with the powers that be, it's time. 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:59.360 So for these states, for these countries which are small and which always had to deal with someone bigger than them, you know, the issue of national sovereignty, the issue of nationalism, of national identity becomes much more important and it makes sense. 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:05.440 And as you said, you know, I live in the UK, the UK was never conquered. 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:10.399 It was I mean, there was a danger of being conquered, but it actually wasn't. 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:18.480 So that in itself creates a very different mindset, uh, both for the state, but also for the people who live in it, you know, when the danger is not there. 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:27.120 In the Greek case, uh, but also in many, I mean, think of the Balkans, um Central Europe, uh, that was not the case. 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:39.039 And even today, I mean, you know, we are facing wars in the Middle East, in the Black Sea, and uh in many cases you have states which have which have to fight against bigger power. 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.759 So this is the fate of all these small states. 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:44.639 Yeah, and you just mentioned small state a few times. 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:49.600 So um confirming for our listeners that Greece wasn't what we think of it today. 00:12:49.759 --> 00:13:10.480 So in the year 1820, the Ottoman Empire was vast, you know, it was um going all the way from what now is Bosnia-Herzegovina down to past Medina on the Arabian Peninsula, northern Africa, and of course Turkey, Syria, and and the whole really what we now call the Middle East almost. 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.919 That gives us the geography, the years 1821. 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:17.120 What happened there? 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.279 That all came together in that year. 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:20.559 What was the context? 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:32.639 If someone wants to understand the context of the Greek Revolution, A, you know, we have to go backwards in time to think of the geopolitical context, but also to take into account this wider Ottoman context. 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:34.240 And I will come back to that. 00:13:34.480 --> 00:13:41.279 So the geopolitical context was defined by the coming of three empires in the region. 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:47.360 And when I say the region, I mean the Eastern Mediterranean at large, not just the Greek peninsula. 00:13:47.519 --> 00:14:01.360 Uh the first empire that came to the region and kind of changed the balance was that the power that I usually call the omnipresent power in all things Mediterranean at the time, and that was the Russian Empire. 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:07.200 This is part of uh Peter the Great's plan, mainly Catherine the Great's plan. 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:14.960 And Catherine the Great's plan was actually for the Russian Empire to get a foothold uh in the Eastern

Mediterranean. 00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.120 So Catherine did two things. 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:25.519 One was actually to send a fleet, a Russian fleet, to circumnavigate the European continent and enter the Mediterranean through Gibraltar. 00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:32.159 That kind of failed, even though some ships eventually landed to the Eastern Mediterranean. 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.840 The other thing that Catherine did was to invite the Greeks. 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:45.759 Uh so for many Greeks, and I'm sure Christos can verify that, uh Odessa and Mariupoli, Mariupoli in Greek, is uh were considered kind of a Greek city. 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.320 And everyone knows Mariupol from that horrible battle that just happened there a few years ago with the Russians, right? 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:52.320 In Greek. 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:54.879 So it's the city of Mariupol. 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:56.159 Oh wow, I never thought about it. 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:56.799 Thank you. 00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:57.279 Yeah. 00:14:57.519 --> 00:15:05.279 No, actually it was a big it was a big blow also for the Greeks, the destruction of Mariupol, because the presence of Greeks there was very visible. 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:17.360 Uh monuments, I mean it was it was one of, you know, uh one of those cities uh in which Greeks migrated uh uh uh massively uh two centuries ago. 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.600 So that was part of uh Catherine the Great's plan. 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:32.720 Uh so the effect of that was you know the the involvement of Russia and the Russian Empire into uh Greek affairs and Greek Ottoman affairs. 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.840 Second, coming, the coming of the French. 00:15:36.320 --> 00:15:46.879 And the crucial moment here is the fall of the Venetian Empire, the Venetian Republic, and the Venetian Republic and the Venetian territories were taken over by the French. 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.000 Part of these territories were the Ionian Islands. 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:59.519 Most people know them today as famous tourist destinations: Kofu, Kerkira, Azante, Zakinthos, Chefalonia, Kefalonia, Ithaca, Ithaca, Ulysses. 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:05.279 So these islands were part of Venice, but then they became part of the French state. 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.639 Actually, they became a departement, 1787. 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.200 Just before under Napoleon, really, then. 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.879 Exactly, exactly, exactly. 00:16:13.039 --> 00:16:17.519 The islands become part of the Greek state, so the French come actually literally come. 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:22.799 The third power that comes into the region, of course, is the British, the British Empire. 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:28.639 Napoleonic Wars, so there are many, many wars uh between the French, the Russians, and the British at the time. 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:33.600 The Ionian Islands became a battleground between all these empires. 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:43.840 Just to give

you the show the complexity of the issue, the Ionian Islands being France at the beginning, they turned out to become British uh eventually. 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:53.279 In 1815, they actually became a British protectorate for like 50 years until 1864, when they were offered by Britain to Greece. 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:59.679 So now they're uh part of the Greek state because Britain decided to leave the islands to Greece. 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:10.000 Uh so as you can imagine, we have like a very weird and difficult situation, very complex situation on the ground, right at the time when the Greek Revolution actually erupts. 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:32.480 Now the fourth player in all this is of course the Ottoman Empire, uh, which was in a kind of a crisis because of the coming of all these empires into the region, and also because of what that meant for the Greeks, was that many local magnates, uh, and a famous one was Ali Passar, household name uh for Greeks. 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:37.759 Ali Passar was actually created a state within the state. 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:44.000 Uh and he was controlling a region that roughly corresponds to a big part of what is today uh the Greek state. 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.319 So is that what we nowadays call a warlord? 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.279 Was he basically a warlord running his own little cow on his own terrain? 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:49.599 Yeah. 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:57.359 Not a legitimate cabin or anything, he was just like a rebel leader, and he was uh successful enough to just carve out his own neck of the woods. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:58.559 Exactly, exactly. 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:00.559 So she was appointed by the Ottomans. 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:01.599 He was an Ottoman subject. 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.599 Actually, Ali Pasar was Albanian, but she was a Greek speaker. 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:12.079 Uh so she she was appointed by the Ottomans, but then he started becoming too powerful. 00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.359 Not just Ali Pasar, many others around the Ottoman Empire in that uh in the same period. 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.359 Mehmed Ali of Egypt, the founder of Egypt, was another one. 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:31.680 So what the Ottoman state decides to do at some point is to go against all those all these local magnates, those warlords. 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:43.759 And this is important for the Greeks because many Greek warlords who were later going to be very much involved in the Greek revolution were actually collaborating with Aliposa. 00:18:44.480 --> 00:19:06.400 So, you know, when the central state goes against Alipasa, these people are left without a job, if you can we can call it that, but also without a power base, without um a sense of community that Alipasa had actually created because it had created like an independent kind of semi-independent uh territorial uh administrative unit. 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:12.000 And also there's a danger of being um massacred by the central state. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:18.160 So for them it's you know it's a crucial decision of life or death uh in 1821. 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:23.279 The decision of people to actually do something which at the time was a crazy thing to do. 00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:34.240 Going against the Ottoman Empire and having a revolution against the Empire was not the most reasonable decision that someone could take at the time, as you can imagine. 00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:37.039 David versus Goliath, right? 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:41.839 This gigantic empire and a couple of uh warlords who happen to speak Greek. 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.839 It was interesting that you then said he wasn't even actually Greek, he was uh Albanian. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:49.920 Um Christos, um, you're following or any new information so far? 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:56.000 No, I'm following the few things that Michali mentioned that um uh are new to me. 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:09.200 However, um what is very interesting, what I realized is it is this revolution, it's not um a established state, so it's a lot of movement at uh at that time. 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:17.039 Michalis mentioned uh the English, the French, the Russians, Ottoman Empire, um local warlords. 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.519 Um so it's um it's a lot of of movement at that time. 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:28.160 And um then have you have the little group or little Greeks, then they are stand up. 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:35.680 And as as far as I understand, and please uh correct me, Michael, the revolution was not started only on one point. 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.559 There were different points that they started. 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.920 The revolution started from from many many areas. 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.359 Yeah, and uh that is for me, that's that's news as well. 00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:47.680 I had no idea about the presence of the foreign powers at the time. 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:53.440 Ottoman Empire was obvious because it was um was the reigning power and and it was their territory at the time. 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.359 Can I ask you why they were all there? 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.279 So you said the Russians were interested. 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:05.279 I get that because that's what Vladimir Putin was just trying to do in Syria very recently, to have a foothold base in uh on the Mediterranean. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:10.079 If you're in control of the Dardanelles, you control the Russian Navy basically in the Black Sea. 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:14.240 But um, France and and Britain, what what was their interest? 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:19.279 Did Greece have a booming economy, or what was the main interest there? 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:21.279 Definitely no. 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:37.279 So Greece was not a booming economy, but what is crucial geopolitically uh in the area were always, and that is also the case today, where the trade routes, the Aegean and the Black Sea are very crucial in

this for this trade. 00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:48.160 Later on in the 18th and 19th century, and even today, what was crucial was of course the grain that was coming from what is today Ukraine, the biggest grain producer in Europe. 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:53.599 So that trade from the Black Sea was going through the Aegean. 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:59.839 And the other factor which was important that who was controlling this trade at the time, actually the Greeks. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:07.920 So the Greek maritime fleet, uh especially in the late 18th and early 19th century, was very, very important. 00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:12.559 So the Greeks knew to how to navigate the waters, they were controlling the trade. 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:19.759 So that this part of the Mediterranean was very crucial for the European powers exactly because of uh trade. 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:26.960 This is the moment when the British land in Sicily, they take control of Sicily for like 15 years, I don't remember how many years exactly. 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:34.319 They take control of Malta, they take control later on of Cyprus, uh, they take control of the Ionian Islands. 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:41.279 So this is the moment, the Mediterranean moment in the history of the British Empire, and the effect was great on the Greeks. 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:42.960 And you mentioned that before, Christos. 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:46.319 Um, we're talking 400 years of occupation. 00:22:46.480 --> 00:22:55.920 Now, if I think of any other nations, any other people, there wouldn't be really much left of an ethnic cultural identity after 400 years of occupation. 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:58.480 Can you too please discuss how that happened? 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:05.599 I I speak uh generally, uh, and uh Michalis can then uh go more in the detail. 00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.079 Uh I can speak a little bit about me, even on the short period of time. 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:16.559 Um I think part of what you are is uh where you're coming from. 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:33.759 I come from a family in northern Greece, where then um lived in today Bulgaria, and then in 1922, when the borders were drawn, uh they moved into the Greek part. 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:44.079 Back then in the Ottoman Empire, where um even though they were Greek identity, they would identify them as a Greek. 00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:51.200 Yeah, they may speak another language, uh Slavic, uh Turkish, uh or whatever. 00:23:51.440 --> 00:24:00.160 But uh I think a very strong point is was the the faith, religion, which uh holds them all together. 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:11.759 Um and uh my family then, because they were identifying themselves as the Greeks, they moved on because they didn't want to be in in Bulgaria. 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:16.880 Yeah, so and I think this is how they survived over a generation. 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:25.599 If we are calculating a generation about 30 years, yeah, it's about 13 generations around this number, yeah. 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:30.960 And surviving 13 generations with the identity, you have to be very, very strong. 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.240 Yeah, Michalis, I'm I'm thinking of the Egyptians, for example, right? 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:46.000 An ancient people much older than the Greeks, absolute distinct, unique culture, you know, uh ahead of the game, but after centuries and centuries of Arabic occupation, so to speak, yeah. 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:54.640 I know Egyptians get very offended if you call them Arabs, but there isn't that much left of the Egyptian culture that we know from antiquity. 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:56.799 Um, what what is your view on that? 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:02.960 How the Greeks um made it through as a people, through those centuries of occupation? 00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:08.480 And does it have to do with a fairly lenient, relaxed occupation policy by the Ottoman Empire? 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.559 Well, yes, uh, first of all, I'm not sure whether I would call it Lenin. 00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:20.319 The Ottoman Empire has a very, very interesting history in general because the governing techniques were changing. 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:24.079 Uh and this is of course goes for all empires, and I will come back to that. 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.480 But I think I have to agree with uh Christos. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:26:12.960 I think religion here plays a huge role, uh, not least because it was one of the religions which were recognized and tolerated by the Ottomans, which is very crucial, and not only that, but uh gradually the patriarchate in Constantinople or Istanbul, um uh Turkish capital today was recognized as the leader institution of the Greeks or the Greek Orthodox, and this is a very you know a very contested term because by that the Ottomans meant uh the the Christians of the empire, not necessarily the Greek-speaking Christians, because they could be Armenians, they could be, you know, uh Georgians, Albanians, uh Egyptians. 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.880 Clarifying, only because you spoke Greek didn't mean you were Greek at the time. 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:18.400 Yeah. 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:19.200 Yeah, I don't know. 00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:23.200 I mean, if you were a Christian, you would belong to the so-called millet. 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.200 This is the way in which the Ottoman Empire was actually dividing the population. 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:27.599 Yeah. 00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:39.680 But gradually, uh in the 18th centuries, especially, um there was, if I can we can call it that, a kind of nationalization of uh the denomination of the faith. 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:48.720 So gradually many Greeks, many Orthodox people came to identify, especially the Greek-speaking uh Christians with the Greek nation. 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:49.680 Two things are important. 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:52.720 One faith, and the other is language. 00:26:52.880 --> 00:27:04.079 Uh the Greek language, you

know, the register of the Greek language now, of course, is very different than the ancient Greek register or the uh medieval register, but still it's the same language. 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:10.640 So that the the language itself brings with with it and within it a culture. 00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:20.400 And I think these are the two ways through which the Greeks kind of preserved a separate identity or at least a sense of Greekness. 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:27.039 It doesn't mean that they viewed themselves as part of the same nation necessarily and always. 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:33.119 But at some point, and for many people at the time, you know, they they saw themselves as part of a wider community. 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:42.559 From the 18th century onwards, that community started becoming, or at least having a bigger sense of itself as a separate national community. 00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.000 To go back to something that Christos knows much better than me. 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:54.960 Even today, when Greeks go somewhere, they sometimes probably will define themselves by the local place where they come from or the where the family comes from. 00:27:55.039 --> 00:28:00.079 You know, people from Tripoli or from Arcadia, from Arcadia, people from the islands, from Android. 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:02.720 They would say, you know, I'm from Andros, I'm from Crete. 00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.559 That's this strong local identity. 00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:07.039 That was even more pronounced back then. 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:10.960 So it's but it's still the case today, but at the same time, we would say, you know, we're Greeks. 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:13.839 I can absolutely confirm what Michali said. 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:22.319 Um I live in the third biggest Greek city, uh, actually the biggest outside Greece now, but yeah. 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:29.839 We were um fourth, fifth generation the Greeks live there. 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:35.519 And um you still you see uh the people identify themselves as Greeks. 00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:39.839 And not only as Greeks, I'm Spartan, I'm from Kalamata. 00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:44.400 I'm from so it's it's very interesting. 00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:47.839 They were born here, grew up here, their parents were born here. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:48.079 Yeah. 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:59.759 Maybe grandfather came here or grand-grandfather came here, and they still identify I'm from Kalamata or I'm from from uh Pyrigos or whatever they came from. 00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:13.599 Um so it's it's just I think it's also um how you identify yourself, even though they are fully Aussies or Australians, yeah, yeah, but identification is still I'm Greek and I'm coming from there. 00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:17.599 I think my theory is that it has to do with those 400 years of occupation. 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:22.000 That and as we call it in in German, there's a word called uh lokal patriotismus, yeah. 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:27.920 So local local patriotism, which is literally down to the village, like I'm patriotic, above my little community. 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:36.319 And and that probably has helped because I want our listeners to understand again that Greece, at the time we're talking about over 200 years ago, was not the Greece of today. 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:37.920 There was Greeks living everywhere, right? 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:42.880 Like you said, where we now think of Ukraine all the way down to uh Egypt, etc. 00:29:43.119 --> 00:29:47.119 Like it was still the remnants of Alexander the Great almost, wasn't it? 00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:48.799 Like the the way the population was spread. 00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:52.559 And there was many, many cities and towns in what is now Turkey as well. 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:57.519 So it's not Greek as as we or Greece as we understand it today. 00:29:57.759 --> 00:30:06.160 Now, Christoph, before you put the theory out that there wasn't a single spark that caused this revolution, this uprising. 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:07.599 Um is that true, Michalis? 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:09.200 And how did it actually happen? 00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:13.039 What happened in 1821 that violence erupted? 00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:19.279 So the whole event actually started in what is today part of Moldova and Romania. 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:31.519 Kind of autonomous regions within the Ottoman Empire that were ruled by the Fanalus, which was a Greek-speaking aristocratic elite, Christian elite. 00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:41.279 So these territories were, you know, kind of strongholds of uh Greek-speaking Orthodox populations, just like further north in Odessa. 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:49.359 The plan was designed by a secret society that was formed in Odessa in 1814, the so-called Friendly Society, uh. 00:30:51.200 --> 00:30:52.160 There's a name. 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.759 Friendly society got together. 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:54.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:57.200 Yeah, yeah, the Society of Friends. 00:30:57.519 --> 00:31:00.640 A very interesting society because you know they had a code. 00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:06.000 Uh it's in order to understand and to read the text uh from that society you need to break the code. 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:09.359 So, of course, now uh we know the code. 00:31:09.519 --> 00:31:11.279 Uh it was a conspiracy. 00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:25.200 They tried to recruit people from all over the Balkans and um Southern Russia, and they were led by a Russian officer, Greek of in Russian service, Alexander Sibcilandis. 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:39.680 So the plan was to start the revolution from the Danovian principalities and then actually go uh southwards uh towards the Balkan peninsula because they had actually recruited many people there, and then they would turn to Constantinople. 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:59.599 Now the Danovian Principalities report failed completely for reasons that we don't have to go uh through now

because you know it has to do with the local context, but then in like a few days after the revolution erupted in the Peloponnesia, and that is the first crucial moment for the revolution. 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:00.079 Why? 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:12.319 Because it was a heavily Christian province, uh, so it was kind of easy uh to get involved, to convince the population to get involved, to be involved in the revolution itself. 00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:15.279 Uh so this is what started it. 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:21.920 And the second crucial moment for me uh was the participation of the islands. 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:34.799 So the islands, those naval islands that I mentioned before, they kind of you know they were not very certain at the beginning, especially the the local leaders and the elites of the islands, so they did not join immediately. 00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:50.000 But then there was a push from the populations, uh especially Nidra, which was like the you know the strongest island, uh there was a push and uh from the population itself to actually participate uh in the revolution. 00:32:50.160 --> 00:33:08.799 So that kind of changed the initial fate of the revolution, uh if I can call it that, because immediately you had a naval power that could protect the Telbanese and go against the Ottomans because the Ottomans the only way to send troops past was either by land or by the sea. 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:15.119 And by the sea they could not do it exactly because the seas uh was uh the sea was controlled by the Greeks. 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:30.480 And the crucial moment is Christmas will know the city, maybe some of your listeners will not know the city, but it was Tripoli or Tripolica at the time, which is actually the let's call it the capital of the Peloponnese. 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:43.920 Many people from the Peloponnese, not from Tripoli, will hate me for saying that, but it was kind of the center of the Peloponnese at the time, very crucial town, because it was also where the Ottoman authorities resided. 00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:57.279 Uh, and there was a siege in the city, and it was taken over by the Greeks after uh a bit and lock fight, actually the massacre of the local massive population and the Jews uh by the Greeks. 00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:09.119 That is probably the first very dark moment, but that was a crucial moment because then you know the the revolution itself actually kind of established itself in the Peloponnes. 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:16.480 Yeah, so that was um uh the fall of Tripoliza 1821 in September. 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:17.599 Yeah. 00:34:18.239 --> 00:34:24.639 And blood on the flag of independence. 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.119 I've got a quote from I'm not sure if you know him, but uh William Sinclair, it's another historian, apparently. 00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:29.599 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:32.320 Who um who knows the topic quite well. 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:40.960 And he said um the orgy of genocide exhausted itself in the Peloponnese only when there were no Mer Turks to kill. 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:42.159 Yeah. 00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:48.880 So my enthusiasm for the Greek independence movement uh has shifted slightly. 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:50.880 How did that happen? 00:34:51.039 --> 00:34:58.400 And it it reminds me of the the Bosnian or the Yugoslav War, where people lived side by side for generations. 00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:04.559 All of a sudden they turn on each other and start butchering each other and killing each other just because one is Muslim and one is one is Christian. 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:20.719 And again, I want to say this is um this is uh a long time before any of uh or any atrocities that just happened in the rest of Europe, which obviously the late 19th century, 20th century is full of that, um, that violence based on on sectarian lines. 00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:23.679 Um what was the reason for that? 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:24.960 I mean, except for hatred. 00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:25.599 Do you know? 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.000 Why why was there so much brutality? 00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:47.760 You know, i uh that was an event that shocked the Philelines, uh, people like Thomas Gorton, who was um in the region at the time, many, many other Philippines who were um present because usually they they used to associate these feelings and these atrocities with Ottom. 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:52.800 Some suddenly they saw they saw the Greeks, the Christians actually perpetrate this. 00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:53.840 The Greek guy. 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:55.360 And then the eyes of the Europeans. 00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:58.239 Exactly, exactly, the good guys. 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:12.559 Uh I don't think uh if we don't get into the you know the the emotions of the simply people and also the warlords who were there, yeah uh there is this moment when, and that was very crucial uh for the massacre. 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:20.880 So they the warlords or at least the leaders of the troops, and that when when we say troops, these were irregular troops. 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:21.920 This is not an army. 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:27.679 This is not a militia that were probably ransacking and some of them. 00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:28.880 Exactly, exactly. 00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:30.320 Yeah. 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:38.800 So the warlords were trying to control uh these troops, and at some point they lost them, they lost control of these troops. 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:46.880 Um the troops believed that there was uh an agreement for the some of the lords to take uh the loot for themselves. 00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.920 So so there are some some some kind of misunderstanding. 00:36:50.079 --> 00:37:04.639 But the crucial thing is that what what happened within the city uh was was was it exactly I mean I wouldn't call it a genocide, uh because that's uh this is a term that is anachronistic, probably to use for the time. 00:37:04.960 -->

00:37:07.599 Uh but it was kind of ethnic cleansing. 00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:19.440 Yeah and of course the Greeks then had to navigate through the consequences of that event because it sent it sent shock waves uh to Europe. 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.159 Uh again, I don't have an explanation. 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:31.119 I think it's going to be very difficult to have an explanation uh of if we don't understand the feelings and the emotions of the people in the city at the time. 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:33.840 Because it wasn't it wasn't just Muslims, right? 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:35.360 Jews got caught up in this as well. 00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:37.280 And just as much. 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:43.360 Um, Christos, we talked about at the very start of the podcast how important this event is and it's celebrated as a national holiday. 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:47.840 Does that dark side of it ever get discussed in in Greek culture these days? 00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:49.199 Or is it often forgotten? 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:54.000 No, um you don't hear it uh this dark side. 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.360 Um but I would like to to add something on it. 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:07.519 Not uh specific to uh Tripolitza, but generally on the behavior of um of of people, humankind. 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:21.599 Normally if you if you live in uh with different cultures in the small space, it is shown that it's always one superior culture, one is um in the middle, and one is suppressed. 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:22.320 The bottom. 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.679 The bottom. 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:38.960 Uh and even though uh it seems that the Ottoman Empire was pretty um liberal, uh how they dealt with other cultures, there were uh a lot of suppression. 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:40.400 Yeah. 00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:50.400 And um I think at some stage uh you can push people to a certain degree and they build up this anger. 00:38:51.119 --> 00:39:14.639 And then when they see the opportunity, when someone starts, Filiqi eteria, uh Michalis mentioned, uh, who proposed uh a revolution or getting up against the suppressor, yeah, then all this anger that collected over the years, centuries or whatever, they they they spill out. 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:24.800 And we saw this in many, many uh revolutions that um that and I assume something similar happened also in Tripolitza. 00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:26.400 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:33.920 But there's always this moment where you know there there's one thing not liking your neighbor, there's a different story to kill your neighbor, um, you know, over I over the family Silver. 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:44.159 Or but I think what what Christoph's just mentioned, maybe for some people it was payback time over, you know, decades, generations of oppression, and maybe second-class citizens. 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:50.800 But also, um, as William Sinclair says, uh, I like the word orgy, and that's just what happens in situations like this. 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:52.400 It just becomes its own beast, right? 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:57.760 So it's just three days and orgy of violence that turns into a massacre. 00:39:57.920 --> 00:39:59.760 And it wasn't the only one, I think. 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:14.159 So let's quickly just talk about the foreign powers, because they were there at the start, they encouraged it, but you said that didn't do the Greeks any favor, that sort of event, because that got into the newspapers in all the major cities in Europe. 00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:19.119 So did the the the support for Greeks then wane, or how did they move on from that? 00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:25.440 Because obviously they they relied on, I assume, funding and any sort of support from the English and the French in particular. 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:33.760 At the time, that was the way that they explained uh what happened in Tripoli and in also in other places, was that theory of degeneration. 00:40:33.920 --> 00:40:46.639 So the theory behind it for many Western Europeans was that the Greeks, because they were under Ottoman rule for so many uh centuries, they had degenerated, they had lost, you know, that uh essence that was coming from ancient Greeks. 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:56.960 So that theory was saying that they degenerated because of the Ottomans, because of being under uh Orient and despotic rule, but now they have to be regenerated. 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:03.760 So how were they going to be regenerated by the help, uh with the help from the Europeans, the Western Europeans? 00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:12.719 Because the Western Europeans at the time were actually saying that they were the ones who were carrying the torch of ancient Greeks, of classical civilization. 00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:17.119 Crater of democracy was Greece, but now it had moved to Western Europe. 00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:20.719 I mentioned at the beginning, the Endibras, the Afghanist of the North. 00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:31.840 But exactly as you said, there were many places in Western Europe at the time that were um seeing themselves as the carriers of that classical civilization. 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:39.679 New architectural buildings, neoclassical style, ways of dressing, reading, uh going back to the classics and so on and so forth. 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:56.159 So for them, the Greeks had generated and they had to be helped also, and also to repay the debt that the Greeks, the ancient Greeks, had actually to repay the debt of uh to the modern Greeks because of what the ancient Greeks had done for Western civilization. 00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:03.599 So what I'm saying is that they kind of gave an explanation, a theory behind it, behind these atrocities. 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:22.320 Uh and actually you can see that also in many of the paintings, uh, if you if someone sees the Lacroix, for example, many of the figures of the Greeks kind of resemble the Ottomans, but not they're not exactly like

the Ottomans, like the Muslims, uh, in terms of color, in terms of their physical characteristics. 00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:34.800 So the idea was that they would become like the Europeans because they were essentially Europeans, but they had degenerated, but they had they would have to come to be educated back to civilization. 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:44.000 So the support in that way actually became even stronger uh in the years after from 1822 onwards. 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:48.880 Um the support came in two ways mainly. 00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:52.719 Uh with volunteers who went actually to Greece to fight. 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:58.239 Lord Byron is of course the most the most famous uh of all. 00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:00.800 We know Lord Byron very well in in Australia. 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:05.760 He was the the herald of of the whole thing in back in the UK, wasn't he? 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:11.519 Like he really helped to bolster the cause uh of of the Greek independence movement. 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:13.840 Especially by dying. 00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:15.920 That's that's the tragedy. 00:43:16.480 --> 00:43:17.039 Tell us more. 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:18.880 What happened to Lord Byron? 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:25.760 I mean uh first of all, Lord Byron, you know, he was a big friend of this part of the world. 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:32.159 Uh he he had visited uh the Ottoman Empire and the Greek, some of what became the Greek territories. 00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:37.199 When it came to the Greek Revolution, he was kind of reluctant to join it at the beginning. 00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:45.039 He kind of thought of he was in Italy, he kind of thought of joining the Spanish uh uh insurrection, the Spanish Revolution. 00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:52.079 But his case was very important because he he offered the revolution like a dimension that he didn't have before. 00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:54.559 Because he was one of the celebrities of this time, right? 00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:59.760 So you have to think that Bayer was very, very f was very, very popular at the time, even before. 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:01.440 Before she came to Greece. 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:06.480 Then she comes to Greece, he gets involved in the Greek revolutionary affairs. 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:08.960 He also brings money with him. 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:11.039 And then he dies. 00:44:11.679 --> 00:44:14.639 You know, sadly, she died of ifus, I think. 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.199 Oh, I I thought he's gonna die on the battlefield with a sword in his hand, so he just died of the ship. 00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.000 She never fought. 00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:25.840 He was the man of the battle. 00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:27.360 What sort of a hero is he? 00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:31.599 Well, I guess with the Well, not all heroes have a sword or a gun. 00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:33.199 Or a quill in his case. 00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:34.079 So okay. 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:35.519 Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.

00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:42.239 That's that's tragic, but before that he really uh helped to get more support from uh from the UK, for example. 00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:46.639 Yeah, and also that because he died and he died in Greece, he died for the Greek cause. 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:53.119 That, you know, that that offered again a visibility to the Greek cause that it did not have before. 00:44:53.679 --> 00:45:06.079 You know, it's it's it's a you know it's the tragedy of like many revolutions, but the death of Lord Byron kind of made the revolution, the Greek revolution, even a more European liberal affair than it was. 00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:14.239 And also the crucial moment, and by where Byron was involved, was the formation of the so-called Loden Greek Committee. 00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:28.960 That committee which was made also of many, many important people, including Jeremy Bentham, you know, liberal MPs, very, very important people also for the stock market and the sovereign market, the debt market. 00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:37.199 Uh so they were the ones who actually managed to uh get a loan for the Greeks, for the Greek government. 00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:48.880 And that was a crucial moment in the history of the Greek Revolution because suddenly the support from uh from European powers and European states took a new form. 00:45:48.960 --> 00:46:07.199 So because it was a moment when governments also were involved in thinking about an independent Greek state, or at least some kind of autonomy, maybe within the Ottoman Empire, maybe without, but at least the debate, the discussion opened up for them. 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:09.920 I I agree with Michalis. 00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:18.960 Uh I think you can't start the revolution without uh support, and especially of the of the powers of at that time. 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:19.679 Yeah. 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:25.119 Um we had lobbyists to support Lord Byron. 00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:25.599 Yeah, perfect. 00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:41.920 Uh Capovistrias, uh uh Ypsilantis, were actually in in in the European, back then European uh diplomacy had a saying, yeah, and had a saying in in Moscow or London or Paris. 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:45.119 So and they are lobbying for this as well. 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:49.519 Of course, the the the big powers had their own interests as well. 00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:49.920 Yeah. 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:51.119 Yeah, without a doubt. 00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:54.559 They don't do it uh just because they love the Greeks. 00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:57.920 Uh they see the the advantages for them. 00:46:58.000 --> 00:46:58.159 Yeah. 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:03.119 But also you need to have people who are driving this thing in the background. 00:47:03.519 --> 00:47:08.000 I really like and I never thought of the parallels to the American War of Independence. 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:11.920 So um, first of all, there's a motivation on the economic side. 00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:16.480 So you you mentioned trade routes before and shipping routes in America. 00:47:16.559 --> 00:47:18.960 You know, we had the Boston Tea Party. 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:30.320 Then there's an actual moment of the declar, an actual moment of a declaration of independence, which happened in um I think uh January 22, something like this. 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:32.079 So just a few months in. 00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:34.719 And then there was a first parliament as well, right? 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:39.920 So they went straight on to out of the caves, basically. 00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:51.440 This is an extreme, but straight back to the the origin where this all came from, because the first proper parliament was in in Athens initially, and this is again how probably the Europeans were supporting it. 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.119 It's like back to the values of the antiquity, right? 00:47:55.360 --> 00:48:02.320 But then there was a period, and you just mentioned it as well for a few years, again, similar to America, which is called, like it's a war within the war. 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:04.719 It's called the Greek Civil War. 00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:09.679 In you know, the the whole period that we're talking about today takes eight, nine years, roughly. 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:14.400 So just the term civil war, does that tell me that all the Greeks weren't really united? 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.280 That there were infighting as well, Michalis? 00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:20.400 Well, yes, exactly as you said. 00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:24.960 So to start from the beginning, so there is a declaration of independence in 22. 00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:39.760 This is this follows the convocation of the first National Assembly, uh, which also publishes the first constitution, the first revolutionary constitution, so what that establishes a government, uh an army, and so on and so forth. 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:52.159 Uh, this is an extremely important moment because that was both the declaration but also the National Assembly, because that was the way in which the Greek Revolution presented itself to the world. 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:59.760 Because you say that now we have we have an established territory, we have an established government, so we're going independent. 00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:04.000 So it's very important not just to declare that, but also to do it. 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:06.960 And the crucial thing here is that the Greeks knew that. 00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:20.639 There were many Greeks around the Greek Revolution, not exactly participating in the Greek Revolution, who were pushing the Greeks on the ground to actually do a constitutional assembly and declare their independence. 00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:24.719 And the name of Johannes Kapodistrias is very important here. 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:28.719 Kapodistrias was actually working for the Russians. 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:30.800 He was in the Russian diplomatic service. 00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:36.239 She was one of the

two, at some point, uh, foreign ministers of Russia. 00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:40.800 So Kapodistrias, he was very much advising the Greeks on the ground. 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:44.400 And Kapodistrias, and I say that because again, the Russian factor is very important. 00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:51.280 So Kapodistrias had an idea of what a revolution should do in order to be successful. 00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:58.079 And for Kapodistrias, the revolution in order to be successful would have to satisfy some criteria of statehood. 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:06.639 And that was, you know, to have a stable government, even if if it was representative, you know, and democratic, it didn't matter. 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:12.239 To have a nation, so the language of nationalism was very crucial for Kapodistrias and for the Russians. 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:21.199 But to have a declaration of independence, to have a uh constitution and to uh set up a government, but also to organize and set up a proper army. 00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:22.960 The Russians had none of that. 00:50:23.280 --> 00:50:26.559 The Russians didn't have a constant parliament. 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:27.119 Yeah. 00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:31.519 You know, it was in the at its best in Russia at the time still. 00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:32.559 So that's funny. 00:50:32.800 --> 00:50:41.280 Yes, but at the time, at the time, especially after the Congress of Vienna, you know, in Europe, Russia was seen as the liberal power. 00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:48.559 It had actually uh gave uh a constitution, of course, controlled by the Russians to Poland before. 00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:58.400 But at least for many people, uh you know, the Russians were helping, or at least they could provide the advice, if you if you wish, and that was what Kapodicius was doing. 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:06.800 Now this happens in 1822, but and that goes back to your argument about you know whether there was a united front. 00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:19.119 At the same time, that constitution actually recognized something that had taken place in the first year of the revolution in 1821, which was the setup, the setting up of different local organizations. 00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:41.039 So you had actually three regional organizations uh in eastern and western mainland Greece and one in the Peloponnese, and then in the constitution itself, these were recognized as local governments, a kind of federal union in the process that made the actual running of affairs very, very difficult. 00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:51.440 Because, you know, that was a new state, at least that was a revolutionary new state in the making, and then you have a central state that has to negotiate with this local organization. 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:57.199 So there is a big discussion during the first years of the revolution what to do about these local organizations. 00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:08.079 The Second National Assembly decides to do away with them, and then immediately after, in 1824 and 25, we have two consecutive uh civil wars. 00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:20.079 And these civil wars, to me, and this is a very cynical argument, are the wars that made the revolution national and in some sense successful. 00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:26.639 Because you had all these local divisions, and you know, revolutions are usually messy affairs. 00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:37.599 So you had many who wanted to go by themselves, or at least the Peloponnesians, for example, wanted to have like a sort of autonomous uh status within that new state. 00:52:37.920 --> 00:52:47.440 But for many, especially for many uh at the time uh participants of the Greek government, they wanted to nationalize the government. 00:52:47.519 --> 00:52:50.159 So they wanted to nationalize also the space. 00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:54.320 Uh and this is what happened with the two civil wars. 00:52:54.400 --> 00:53:14.800 And I think a crucial moment for me is in during the Second Civil War, the troops from what is today mainland Greece that is above in the north of the Peloponnese, some of the best troops in the Balkan peninsula at the time, irregular troops, uh, you know, very experienced, uh, they decided to invade the Peloponnese. 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:21.360 And that was a crucial moment because it kind of, and ironically and cynically, it nationalized space. 00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:37.920 You know, the moment when someone with a very strong local identity coming from England, Greece, decides to invade the Peloponnese in order to trust the local lords of the Peloponnese is the moment when for them they think in national terms and they act on national terms. 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:43.840 Those mountaineers from the north marched in and the people on the Peloponnese were sort of welcoming them. 00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:45.280 Exactly, exactly. 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:47.840 And also they massacred a lot of them. 00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:48.400 Of course. 00:53:48.960 --> 00:53:52.079 Many in the Peloponnese, like local landlords. 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:52.559 Yeah. 00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:57.280 Um and then that was you know the moment when the revolution becomes national. 00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:14.639 But then the Ottoman Empire uh strikes a deal with the Egyptians, with Mehmed Ali of Egypt, and Mehmed Ali sends his troops with his son Ibrahim in the Peloponnese, they land on the Peloponnese and they crash the rebellion, they crash the revolution. 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:18.159 So what happens was actually the revolution was going to be lost. 00:54:18.400 --> 00:54:32.079 But in 1827, in the so-called Navarino naval battle in Navarino Bay, which is in the south of the Peloponnese, the Allied fleet of the European powers destroyed completely the Ottoman-Egyptian fleet. 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:33.920 You had a de facto Greek state. 00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:38.239 Just summarizing the last um eight or nine years or so. 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:42.960 So 1821, the uprising, it starts in in

various areas. 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:46.239 Initially, you know, somewhere what we now call Romania. 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:50.000 There was an actual declaration of independence, which is crucial. 00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:51.280 It was a parliament. 00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:56.400 And um and then there was an actual civil war inside of Greece as part of that. 00:54:56.559 --> 00:55:00.960 Um and then the Egyptians got on board, which I think were part of the Ottoman Empire anyway, right? 00:55:01.039 --> 00:55:04.000 It was sort of like a semi-autonomous region. 00:55:04.239 --> 00:55:10.559 And so Ibrahim came over with his fleet, was very successful, almost crushed the whole thing. 00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:26.239 But then thanks to Lord Byron and all his lobbyism and his friends, the Europeans got involved, but quite a bit later, including the Russians, and that then in the end, because we can't go through battle by battle, uh, led to the Treaty of Adrianopoli. 00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:29.519 Is that the right pronunciation or is that to Italian? 00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:34.079 The Treaty of Adrianopoli for us, but it's fine. 00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:35.519 Cool, I'll take that one. 00:55:36.079 --> 00:55:37.039 You need to learn Greek. 00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:37.840 I am, I know. 00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:38.960 That's a different podcast, though. 00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:42.159 Me learning Greek, that'll get a lot more clicks because people have a laugh. 00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:44.559 Many, many podcasts. 00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:48.960 So um, so that was then in 1829. 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:51.920 And again, if people do want to know the details, you'll have to look it up. 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:54.159 Unfortunately, yourself, there's too much to talk about. 00:55:54.320 --> 00:56:00.559 Do Greeks get offended if I say the Europeans won your battle of independence for you? 00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:02.079 Absolutely. 00:56:02.320 --> 00:56:02.639 Okay. 00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:04.880 But I don't say that at the local breaker. 00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:07.039 The Greeks fight it. 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:14.159 Of course, um, as I said before, um, you need the approval from the big power. 00:56:14.239 --> 00:56:21.360 Uh, however, the actual fight was the Greeks and the the willingness behind it. 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:22.000 Yeah. 00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:32.000 Is there um in at this day and age, because you uh you both mentioned a fair few names throughout this podcast, and I don't remember all of them, is there one iconic figure? 00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:36.559 Is there a Che Guevara of the of the Greek revolution? 00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:42.880 Is there one particular um freedom fighter, partisan that is celebrated today, or is there too many of them to name one? 00:56:43.679 --> 00:56:48.159 Sometimes people pick the one who is from their own uh region. 00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:49.280 Of course, no. 00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:57.119 Uh for me, to be honest, as because I have

studied the the period, for me that my favorite is Jorgius Kareskaikis. 00:56:57.599 --> 00:56:59.679 Uh another household name. 00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:07.920 And the reason is that he was we have many letters written uh by him, or at least his secretary. 00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:10.880 He was swearing, kersing all the time. 00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:17.679 He couldn't actually make a sentence without actually swearing in kersing. 00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:21.599 You know, kersing can be very, very political, can be very also very shocked. 00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:29.199 And that's why I liked him because also he was he was one of those who uh shifted his allegiances during the revolution. 00:57:29.360 --> 00:57:29.599 Yeah. 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:32.800 He was accused of treason, he was actually tried. 00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:34.480 Uh the first one who was tried. 00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:36.719 Um by his own people or by the Ottomans? 00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:37.599 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:38.800 Yeah, by the Greeks. 00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:42.159 The Greeks put their own feudal on Okay, on trial. 00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:51.360 Yeah, because they they accused him of actually speaking with the Ottomans and making a pact with the Ottomans, which was probably true. 00:57:51.760 --> 00:58:02.000 Uh but the crucial thing is that A, the government at the time, took the decision to put on kind of show trial, so to make a case out of Kariskitis, right? 00:58:02.079 --> 00:58:06.639 Again, you have to show that you have the power to do that as a national government. 00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:12.719 So they did, but of course they didn't have the power to do something with kariskitis, so they didn't have the power to actually put him on jail. 00:58:12.880 --> 00:58:17.679 And she actually dies a very heroic um death uh in a battle. 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:23.440 And of course, yeah, for me it's Periskitis and then Kolokotronis, another one, houseful name. 00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:28.960 You can see many statues of these people if you come to Greece, they're everywhere. 00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:34.079 And then as of 1830, we have the first modern Greek state. 00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:39.519 And the reason why I've got Christos here today is to talk about that because there's so many links to Germany, it's so interesting. 00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:46.400 But we I think we're really running out of time here because this podcast is getting a little bit too long for our listeners, and I think we have to catch up again. 00:58:46.559 --> 00:58:47.920 But can I also ask you? 00:58:48.079 --> 00:58:55.440 Um, you know, in hindsight, it's always all the Greeks rose up and they fought really hard and the bad Ottomans, and then they finally gained their independence. 00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:59.760 And as you said, in Greece, there's no mentioning of foreigners, the Greeks did it all themselves. 00:58:59.920 --> 00:59:07.840 But was there any Greeks at the time that regretted that

and didn't sign up for the Greek cause and actually sided with the Ottomans? 00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:10.079 Because, you know, there's always winners and losers. 00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:19.599 Were there people, because I know Greeks were in Ottoman government as well, so or was there obviously a lot of Greeks remaining in what was the Ottoman Empire? 00:59:19.679 --> 00:59:23.920 It's not that all Greeks now lived in an independent Greece from 1830, right? 00:59:24.079 --> 00:59:25.840 So how did their life progress? 00:59:26.000 --> 00:59:32.320 Did the Ottomans keep an eye on them after the Greek Revolution and treated them any differently, or what was their life like afterwards? 00:59:33.519 --> 00:59:43.119 Well, of course, I mean, as you can imagine, many, many, many people, many Greeks sided with the Ottomans, or obviously did not wish to side with the Greeks because it was a very dangerous affair. 00:59:43.519 --> 00:59:51.039 Uh, in fact, the the the most notorious warlords of mainland Greece, uh, Jurgos Barnaciotis sided with the Ottomans. 00:59:51.199 --> 01:00:03.679 Uh now, of course, the Ottomans did, you know, there was a huge uh backlash in um the Ottoman Empire against the Christians in general, and especially against the Greeks uh during uh the first years of the revolution. 01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:12.880 But at the same time, you know, the Ottoman Empire was always very um uh ready to negotiate and to rethink its affairs with uh its population. 01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:28.480 So many Greeks, especially those who actually lived in Ottoman territories after the event, and probably there were many more than those who actually resided, lived in the Greek state, in the lands that became the Greek state. 01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:46.800 So they had to negotiate themselves, they had to negotiate with the Ottoman Empire again, and the Ottoman Empire in the process actually uh went into a series of reforms, one of which was to recognize the participation of local uh of Christians or non-Muslims in the local council. 01:00:47.199 --> 01:01:04.320 So that was an opening of the empire, partly produced and caused by uh the Greek Revolution and many other revolts that were taking place in the Ottoman Empire at the time, so they kind of opened up the gates for more political participation of this uh non-Muslim population. 01:01:04.639 --> 01:01:07.599 This opened the door, of course, to nationalism. 01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:20.159 And that that was in some ways the beginning of the end of the empire, because it was not an empire that was organized in national terms, it was an empire organized in religious terms. 01:01:20.559 --> 01:01:21.679 It it backfired on them. 01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:22.559 It didn't really work. 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:32.239 Now um we won't have enough time, but we'll just talk another few minutes, Christos, because I think uh our listeners will find it and viewers, again reminding everyone out there that we're now on YouTube as

well. 01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:41.440 You can watch us if you want to see um three handsome men talk about the uh Greek history, um, especially between 1821 and 1829. 01:01:41.920 --> 01:01:52.079 Everyone else now would think, okay, 1830, independence, all the Greeks shake hands, happy, got their own government and democracy, because that was the whole idea, wasn't it? 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:53.679 But what happened was something very different. 01:01:53.760 --> 01:02:02.079 It actually ended up being a kingdom, and the the king of Greece after 1830 was everything but Greek Christos. 01:02:02.320 --> 01:02:05.679 No, it was uh it was Bavarian. 01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:17.760 Which is a state in Germany, yes, a state in Germany, and back uh then um there was pretty independent uh Bavaria, they've got their own their own king. 01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:29.119 I know that he was set up by the yeah big powers to bring to bring a little bit of of of certainty in. 01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:29.679 Yeah. 01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:35.440 Um and also to join the European family. 01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:36.800 Yeah, kind of, yeah. 01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:37.280 Yeah. 01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:39.840 Well, that was Otto I of Greece, right? 01:02:39.920 --> 01:02:42.239 I mean, you couldn't have a more German name than Otto. 01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:48.239 And uh I also his his father, Ludwig, not the one with the fairy tale castles, that was the next one. 01:02:48.400 --> 01:02:52.400 But uh so his father, he changed the spelling of his own country. 01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:54.960 So Bavaria is Bayern in German. 01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:55.280 Yeah. 01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:57.760 And it used to be spelt with an B-A-I. 01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:06.159 And during the Greek Civil War, because he was so obsessed with Greece, he changed the I to a Y, oops, epsilon, to make it look more Greek. 01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:08.800 Um, and but Bavaria is still spelled like this today, right? 01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:12.639 So if you look at Bayern Munich, that's why the why the football club is spelled like that. 01:03:13.119 --> 01:03:13.920 I didn't know that. 01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:23.039 Yeah, and um, and also then there is, you know, there's various again, we spoke about architecture, and there's many monuments and buildings in Bavaria that look like ancient Greece. 01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:26.880 And these are the um these are the the the Phililines, yeah. 01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:28.079 You you said before. 01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:31.599 Foreigners loving Greece more than anything. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:32.639 Yeah, exactly. 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:44.079 And this in this case, in the the Bavarian case, you have kind of an institutional free elite because it's like a whole state uh and a whole royal family, but it's very Philellenic. 01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:45.360 Uh so yeah. 01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:54.480 I mean, to go back to you know why why Bavaria, why Luthi, why King Otto, also it was it was a waste of the European powers. 01:03:54.719 --> 01:03:58.880 Let's not forget, this is Europe, the Europe at the time was still a Europe of monarchy. 01:03:59.039 --> 01:04:08.239 In order for a state, especially a new state, to gain legitimacy, uh, you know, having a even a foreign monarch was uh was the way to do it. 01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:14.639 Now for the Greeks, it wasn't a problem because one of the problems that the Greeks had was this local division. 01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:30.159 So exactly because you needed a kind of unifying power, like a king that would be, of course, appointed by someone else, and who a king who was not from Greece, because there were many enmities and divisions within within Greece itself. 01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:33.039 So it was kind of you know a a way out. 01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:39.360 Uh the problem was that it wasn't so much that he was a foreigner that that he was a Catholic. 01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:49.199 That was that became a problem in the 1850s because for the Greeks they were saying that the next one, the hierarchy, would have to be Orthodox. 01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:51.280 And that was the agreement. 01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:54.960 The problem was that Otto was childless. 01:04:55.599 --> 01:05:06.559 So that was uh it became a big issue uh in the 1850s, and then Otto was ousted, was dethroned in 1862 with another revolution. 01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:10.239 Yeah, and then the next king coming up as a podcast here. 01:05:10.559 --> 01:05:11.599 I'm making that pledge now. 01:05:12.960 --> 01:05:14.480 Um hopefully you join us for that one. 01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:18.079 So what was it um 1862, the coup against Otto? 01:05:18.159 --> 01:05:19.119 That's a great topic. 01:05:19.199 --> 01:05:20.480 I can't wait for that. 01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:21.519 Yeah, yeah. 01:05:21.599 --> 01:05:24.800 I mean, it's a coup against Otto, she's dethroned. 01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:35.199 Um, but this is not a coup against the monarchy stats, because actually the uh Revolutionary Assembly uh asks and votes for a new king. 01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:41.679 Yeah and so that would be the new King George of the Greeks, uh of uh Denmark. 01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:52.639 Uh so it's not it's it's it has a lot to do with the lack loss of legitimacy from the autos, what people at the time used to call autos systems. 01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:56.639 You know, some legacies in Greece itself, and you can see it in the building. 01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.840 Some of the buildings that someone can see even today in Africa. 01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:06.079 Were made and commissioned by Otto, and they follow this neoclassical style. 01:06:06.239 --> 01:06:10.480 And you can see it, I mean, whoever has ever visited Athens, these buildings are there. 01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:16.079 And you can see this influence from this neoclassical Bavarian architects. 01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:22.800 Apart of that, the Otto left something else behind in Greece. 01:06:23.440 -->

01:06:30.320 And is the German purity law for beer, where only four ingredients is allowed. 01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:40.079 Except of Germany is the Greeks, Greece is the only country who brews beer after the German purity law. 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:42.079 There is a topic I'm very interested in. 01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:44.559 And again, another idea for a podcast. 01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:46.800 Now, here's another urban myth. 01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:59.440 First of all, apparently Otto spoke Greek very well because they were obsessed with it, but they came down there speaking ancient Greek, and they were so disappointed when they met the actual Greek population to say, hang on, that's not what we thought. 01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:05.920 We all thought they're like half-naked uh goddesses, you know, speaking this ancient language. 01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:11.440 And then a lot of them were peasants with ancient rifles and spears um you're fighting the Ottomans. 01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:16.239 An urban myth I've ever heard because the Greek flag is so iconic. 01:07:16.960 --> 01:07:20.480 And there's a reason why the Greek flag is blue and white. 01:07:20.719 --> 01:07:27.679 When you look at the Bavarian flag, that also happens to be blue and white, does that go back to Otto and the Bavarians as well? 01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:31.599 Do you know where the colours and the layout of the Greek flag comes from? 01:07:32.079 --> 01:07:38.320 I had not thought that it would go back to the Bavarians because also these were colours that were used. 01:07:38.639 --> 01:07:43.280 You know, during the revolution you have two different flags uh being created. 01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:43.840 Okay. 01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:53.440 Uh and the bla the blue and white was being used, but not in the sense, not in the way that it was used later on in the Greek flag as we know it today. 01:07:53.519 --> 01:07:58.960 It was usually like, you know, a cross, uh either blue or white, stuff like that. 01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:01.119 So but I actually don't know. 01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:02.719 Oh my god, I love leaving questions. 01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:04.159 You caught me a lot. 01:08:04.960 --> 01:08:06.480 Happy, and I'm so glad you admit it. 01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:09.360 You don't make up stuff because our listeners they're gonna point it out. 01:08:09.519 --> 01:08:14.079 Um if you sorry, if you know what the answer is, please leave it in the comments. 01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:19.119 Um, is the Greek flag that we know today related to the Bavarian flag, or is it coincidence? 01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:23.279 Um, and uh also send us an email, uh putcast at gmail.com. 01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:27.039 Christos, uh, what's your final verdict on today's episode? 01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:28.319 Have you learned something? 01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:29.439 Absolutely. 01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:36.800 Uh thank you very much, uh Michalis, for all the details uh that you provided. 01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:44.319 Uh as

um um a Greek um and I went to a Greek school um in Germany. 01:08:44.479 --> 01:08:48.399 So we learned these things, but not that much in in detail. 01:08:48.640 --> 01:08:56.239 And also for the preparation uh for this podcast, uh I did some research plus Mikali's details. 01:08:56.319 --> 01:09:02.239 Uh I learned quite a lot, and I understand now how things become together. 01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:04.560 So uh yes, I learned a lot. 01:09:04.800 --> 01:09:10.319 Yeah, thanks uh thanks for joining us, uh Christos, and I hope to see and hear you again on the podcast. 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:12.239 You just gave us a brilliant topic there. 01:09:12.319 --> 01:09:15.119 I want to find out exactly how Otto lost his job. 01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:17.840 Uh Michalis, can I ask you? 01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:25.520 We we started this podcast talking about you know two and a half thousand years of Greek uh history, and there's so much to learn and focus on. 01:09:25.680 --> 01:09:29.039 Why did you, for a career, pick this period of Greek history? 01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:30.720 What fascinates you about this? 01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:32.560 Well, that's a very good question. 01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:35.680 Uh A, because it's very understudied. 01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:43.760 Uh, you know, usually people study the 20th century or uh ancient Greek history, or some people Byzantium. 01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:58.880 But eighteenth the 18th and 19th centuries are very understudied, and I think because as in many other places, it was the moment when many things started, when many things that we are familiar with today actually started. 01:09:59.039 --> 01:10:11.279 And I wanted to understand the origins of it, you know, these moments that were crucial for the making of the Greek state, for the making of Europe, because the Greek state is part of Europe, but for the making of the Middle East, for the decline of the Ottoman Empire. 01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:18.479 You know, like these big uh moments that defined the region, that defined us as Greeks, but also the region. 01:10:18.640 --> 01:10:23.279 And I wanted to go back uh uh into the origins and study the origins. 01:10:23.600 --> 01:10:35.600 And also to get you know familiar with texts and languages and people that we're not very familiar with, even though we you know we celebrate them, but we actually don't know them. 01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:47.119 And it's nice to find and to see these life stories, uh, very interesting life stories of many, many protagonists, but also non-protagonists of the revolution itself, you know, how they grew up, what they did, what they said. 01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:58.880 And and this is a very different world than the ones that we thought uh it was when we you know when we learn about these things at school uh or even uh at the university. 01:10:59.039 --> 01:11:00.560 So that was the reason. 01:11:00.880 --> 01:11:08.720 Yeah, and uh I did research, and there are not that many experts like you, so I'm very, very fortunate to have had you on Putschcast. 01:11:08.880 --> 01:11:10.640 And again, I'll contact you again. 01:11:10.720 --> 01:11:14.000 Um, everyone else out there, please give us a like, share, subscribe. 01:11:14.159 --> 01:11:26.960 We need this to get more experts on this podcast and to uncover more hidden parts of European and world history, because um, someone will be toppled next, and we need to cover it and talk about it. 01:11:27.039 --> 01:11:32.159 So look us up, putcast.com or on all your favorite social media platforms. 01:11:32.319 --> 01:11:35.680 My name is Oliver Heute, your host, and uh I'll see you next time. 01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:36.399 Bye bye.