บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Episode:1 Counselor experience in the treatment continuum

lacking in the space and I'm hoping that this 54 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:17,840 can help build that like we can have these difficult discussions, etc. And just talk about 55 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:21,920 things that really need to be talked about things that are being swept under the rug and 56 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:27,280 hoping you know my lived experience, your lived experience helps individuals feel more comfortable 57 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:31,440 coming on the podcast and sharing that because they know we're coming from a place of care and 58 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:37,280 concern. Yeah, well thank you so much for sharing all your experience with everything. Yeah, 59 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:46,880 how much clean time do you have now? So 2008, February was the date I was arrested and that 60 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:52,240 I don't have the exact date I can't remember so I just used the month of February as planned. 61 00:05:53,440 --> 00:06:00,080 But February 2008 until now so almost 17 years coming up this February. Oh my god, 62 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:07,120 that's incredible. Congratulations. Thank you, I appreciate it. Welcome. Yeah, so yeah, it's 63 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:14,560 funny you mentioned February because February of 2018 is my clean date. So I've been clean now for 64 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:22,560 going on seven years. Congratulations. Thank you very much. Yeah, so I started using heroin when I 65 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:28,320 was in college. I actually believe it or not went to college for vocal performance. I'm a 66 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,400 classically trained singer. All the music that you hear on this podcast is produced by me. 67 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:38,880 So that's kind of a you know a side thing that I do now. But anyway, I was I was going to school 68 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:45,840 for music. And I met this guy who I ended up falling very head over heels for who was in 69 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:53,360 active addiction. And I thought I could fix him. And turns out I couldn't. So I ended up you know 70 00:06:53,360 --> 00:07:02,560 using very heavily on and off for six years. I did try to get clean a few times. I did outpatient 71 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:09,040 treatment actually never went to inpatient. I was just very yeah, I was very like, 72 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:16,800 I didn't want I was very like focused on my job very focused on like, you know, I have things I 73 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,640 have to do I can't drop everything to go to treatment. And so what I ended up doing is 74 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,840 the third time around that I got clean because I overdosed three times the third time. 75 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:36,160 Yeah, the third time I was the worst one. I mean, they were like, like I was, I was at my boyfriend 76 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,640 at the time we were having a Super Bowl party at his house. And mind you, I was like keeping the 77 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:48,080 fact that I had relapsed, you know, so under wraps. And I passed out in his bathroom. And they had to 78 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:54,320 you know, call an ambulance for me. So they told me that I had aspirated. So I had pneumonia. I was 79 00:07:54,320 --> 00:08:01,760 in the hospital for I want to say like a week. And after that, I was like never again, never again. 80 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:10,880 So yeah. So after that, I, you know, you and I met when we went to ECC. So I got my 81 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:18,320 associates from there. I then went and got my bachelor's from Empire State. And I have a 82 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,040 certification now through New York State, which is called the KSEC, which stands for 83 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:30,000 certified alcohol and substance abuse counselor. So that's kind of my my crowning achievement of 84 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:37,120 my work in this field is having that credential during the work passing the exam. So yeah, so I've 85 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:45,280 been since 2017, I've been in the field doing peer work counseling case management, a lot of 86 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:50,640 different stuff. But my, you know, main focus is doing the counseling stuff. And I'm also a part 87 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:56,000 of this panel through New York State called the LEAP panel. It's the lived experience advisory 88 00:08:56,000 --> 00:09:02,800 panel. So they selected 30 individuals across the state with lived experience to participate in 89 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:08,560 this panel that meets quarterly with Oasis leadership, like the commissioner, the deputy 90 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:14,240 commissioner, and other people from, you know, higher up offices in Oasis, basically with the 91 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:21,920 intent of trying to learn from people's experiences and try and better treatment 92 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,200 for people throughout New York State. So yeah, so that's that's my backstory. 93 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:34,320 Well, that's well, it's good to hear and let everyone else know that, you know, the individuals 94 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:39,920 that are, you know, taking the time out to talk to you here today have been through have like run 95 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,320 the gamut when it comes to personal lived experience and things that we've gone through. And I just 96 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:49,840 want to say thank you for, you know, taking the time I'll let those listeners know your experience 97 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:54,800 and how it translated to you getting into the field. I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you. 98 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Well, you mentioned the LEAP panel, right? Yes. And so while that's still, you know, fresh there, 99 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:09,760 let's start with that. What do you what was the design of the LEAP panel for those that don't 100 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:15,680 know? I know you touched on it briefly. Maybe go into a little bit more detail of the design of it, 101

00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:21,760 how things have transpired, has it lived up to the billing, so to speak of its creation, 102 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:28,400 and maybe potentially talk about, you know, any type of emotions that come up, any type of change 103 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:34,560 that's being enacted due to maybe the lived experience advice from the advisory panel. 104 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:44,080 Yeah. So this panel, it has only been in existence since this year 2024. And the way that it was 105 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:52,480 advertised is that it was going to be this, you know, like I said, quarterly, quarterly event, 106 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:57,920 or I'm sorry, quarterly meeting with the OASIS leadership. But the way that it was advertised 107 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,320 was it was going to be an in-person meeting, like, you know, you have to take a full day off of work. 108 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:08,400 And we would all be meeting at either the New York or the OASIS office in New York City, 109 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:14,960 or the one in Albany. And it would, like, you know, they switch it for each meeting. So like, 110 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:21,840 one meeting you'd go to Albany, one meeting you'd go to New York City. And the way that it has gone 111 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:29,360 so far is that we have not met in person one time. Really? Yeah. Why do you think that is? 112 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:42,800 I think, oh, man. Well, honestly, I think that its inception came with good motivation behind it. 113 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:50,000 But I also think that it was to tick a box. I think that people raised enough hell about, 114 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,560 you know, why have you never involved any people who are either currently using or who have, 115 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:02,160 you know, lived experience? Why are you not including them in any decision making or policy, 116 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,880 you know, proposals? And OASIS finally got to the point where they couldn't make enough excuses 117 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,800 where they, you know, were basically like, okay, well, let's just, you know, create this panel. 118 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,480 And in that way, we can use it for marketing and advertising and basically, you know, say 119 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,960 we're going to be doing these things, but not actually implementing the way or implementing 120 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:28,800 things the way that we intended to. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's really sad too, 121 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:35,840 because like, I mean, the people that are on this panel are some of the most dedicated, 122 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,440 committed people I've ever encountered in the field. And they, I mean, they all have lived 123 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,920 experience because that's, you know, a requirement. Like when they interviewed us for the panel, 124 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:53,520 you had to like, you know, tell them everything basically. They sent out a questionnaire. Yeah. 125 00:12:53,520 --> 00:13:00,000 I want to say it was linked in and a bunch of different socials. And it was basically about 126 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:08,160 any type of feedback you had for, you know, what they're doing, et cetera, et cetera. And I kind 127 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:15,680 of went in, you know, but I did so in a very professional way. And just like opening their 128 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:21,920 eyes and a lot of it is the stuff we're going to talk about today is just like, Hey, this is what's 129 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:27,200 going on from a person's perspective. That's not only in recovery, but is also a treatment 130 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:35,040 professional, right? Right. What are we doing here? So that's sad. I hope they, I hope eventually, 131 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:41,280 maybe I don't want to say that they're not taking it serious, but from everything you're 132 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:47,920 telling me, it's left me to think, you know, that maybe they're not. So yeah, hoping, hoping they 133 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,560 do maybe take it a little bit serious. Maybe if we, you know, bring up those questions, we get 134 00:13:52,560 --> 00:14:00,240 these listeners to chime in and give their opinion on it too. And if it gets enough noise, 135 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:10,000 maybe change it, you know, hopefully. Yeah. Well, all right. So why don't we kind of just go 136 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:16,480 dive right into our topic here. So like I said, our topic for this episode is workforce retention 137 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:24,320 in the addiction field. So I think we should break it into maybe talking about for clinical staff, 138 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:29,440 like counselors, current problems in that regard, and then also for peers, you know, 139 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,560 the non clinical part. So I'm going to hand it off to you, Chris, to kind of get us started with 140 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:41,680 our discussion. Yeah. So from my perspective, I think, and again, this is just my opinion. And 141 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:48,000 before I get started with this, this forum, it's not designed to for anyone to take the fence or 142 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,480 to get offended by what we're saying, right? This isn't a shooting shot at anyone and calling anyone 143 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:02,320 what our intent, our intent is. This is an open forum for us to discuss our frustrations within 144 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:08,960 the field and potentially what those problems are. And then how we could be solution focused and fix 145 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:14,960 the problem. So I just want to say, like, don't take it as Oh, this is a bitch, niche, grope, 146 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:22,320 or gripe session, not grope. Whoa, hey. But that's not what this is, you know, it's open forum. 147 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,560 And just to piggyback off of what Chris said, we will not be

naming any agencies by name here. 148 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,360 The only agency that we're going to be discussing by name is New York State Oasis, just because 149 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:39,760 they are the New York State designated agency for substance use. So, you know, they're really the 150 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:47,200 only ones with with the powers to make those executive decisions. So we're kind of hoping to 151 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:53,040 call upon those executive legislators and people within Oasis who can make the change. But yeah, 152 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,160 just while we're discussing these agencies, we will not be naming them by name. 153 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Yeah, right. And it's like, it's about bad policies, bad decisions being made in, you know, 154 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,400 an administration that are having a trickle down effect and not only affecting the community based 155 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,640 organizations and other agencies that are providing these services, but our community as well. 156 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,440 So it's not to knock another agency or what they're doing or not doing, we're just here to 157 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:21,200 hopefully address the systemic environment and policy and policies that create these environments. 158 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:21,920 Right. 159 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:27,920 Right. Yeah. So I think the current problems for counselors in my perspective, you know, 160 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:35,520 the process for obtaining our professional certifications that allow us to practice as a 161 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:42,880 counselor for substance use disorder is the main thing, I think, in my opinion. You have to go 162 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:50,800 through first, now they're offering scholarship programs where you can actively get these courses 163 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:56,960 paid for. But for those like ourselves that like had to go to college, put ourselves in student loan 164 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:03,520 debt, get that degree, get that entry level credentialing, which is called a case-sac 165 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,560 Tee, which is a comprehensive alcohol and substance abuse counselor trainees. And with that 166 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:15,360 trainee status, then you have to do with it, 6,000 hours of work experience. And your degree 167 00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:21,440 is included in those hours of work experience, but it's just it makes an individual have to 168 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,400 wait even longer to take their examination to be approved to move on to the next step. And why 169 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:32,720 that's important is everything's based off of your credentialing as far as your pay rate, 170 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:39,760 what you're making. So I've had my case-sac Tee, I've earned all the hours I've had to get 171 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:47,920 for earning those, I've earned all the hours, right? For gaining that case-sac. And the other issue 172 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:55,760 this leads me, leads us into is like how individuals work for an agency, they do everything they need 173 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:01,600 to do, maybe they leave the agency that they were out for whatever reason, maybe it's bad 174 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,120 terms, maybe they didn't get along with their supervisor, maybe they needed a job, maybe a 175 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:10,320 different job that was paying better pay, whatever the case may be. Once they go back to that 176 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:16,080 supervisor and say, hey, I need those hours, can we go ahead and do that? And that supervisor 177 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:21,040 decides not to give you your hours for whatever personal grudge they have against you, it pretty 178 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:28,240 much holds you hostage at that set pay rate. Yeah. Which you want to talk about workforce 179 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:34,320 retention, that's kind of, I want to say that has to be top three or top four reasons as to why 180 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,280 individuals are leaving the field, right? Right, yeah. I mean, I've had that happen to me twice, 181 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:46,240 two different agencies that I left on, I thought pretty good terms. And I asked for my supervisor 182 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,520 to sign up on my hours and they either just took way too long or I had to like pester them and 183 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,240 pester them and pester them to the point where they were like, basically screw you, we're not 184 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:02,560 going to accommodate you. Yeah, that's sad because like there's so many of us, I'm currently going 185 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:10,160 through that now. Like I have 2000 hours of work experience that is not being honored. And again, 186 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:15,600 I left in good terms, gave two weeks notice, fulfilled that two weeks notice and got up 187 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:22,880 out of there, right? So if anything, there shouldn't be any spiteful behavior that comes with it 188 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,200 to signing off on these hours, but you see this and I thought about leaving the field in general 189 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:32,880 before I took my next job, I was just like, I can't deal with this. Like I'm stuck at 40, 190 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:39,520 to 43,000 at this case that people once you get this case at your salary automatically jumps from 191 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,680 high 50s to low 60s sometimes depending on the place you go to work for. So here it is, I'm 192 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,640 being held hostage at that lower pay and it's like, dude, I've got so much more to offer. 193 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:57,680 I can't do this. I just can't do it. And I think that's a huge reason why people are saying, you 194 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:04,160 know what, let me go to learn how to be an electrician because they make way more money and it's way 195 00:20:04,160 -->

00:20:11,440 less stress. Yeah, I mean, like part of that I feel like as well as the fact that the case 196 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:17,120 act, despite the fact that on the IC and RC website, it says that there's reciprocity in all these 197 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:24,480 different states, right? But I mean, there's there's a nationally recognized license for alcohol 198 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,840 and drug counselors that is not like New York State is not a part of that. It's called the 199 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:35,200 counseling compact. It's like New York State and like six other states are just not a part of that 200 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,200 for whatever reason, which means that, you know, we can't go into private practices counselors. 201 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,720 That's I think a huge part of why people are leaving is because they see somebody with, 202 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,760 you know, mental health license like an LMHC, which stands for License Mental Health Counselor or 203 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:56,480 an LMSW, which stands for License Master of Social Work, you know, these nationally recognized 204 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:05,360 licenses where you're doing the equivalent amount of work, like, you know, with the education portion 205 00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:10,880 aside from with having a, you know, a master's degree, that's the only difference. But, you know, 206 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,600 you do your education, you do your work experience hours, you get people to sign off on your ethical 207 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:24,160 abilities. You know, you take the exam and you get this, you know, credential that is essentially, 208 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:29,760 in my opinion, a license. But it's not viewed the same way, you know, you can't like, again, 209 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,200 you can't do private practice, you can't build the same way like the salary ranges are so different 210 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:40,400 despite the fact that you're doing the same work as a mental health counselor. I mean, even in our 211 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:46,960 work in the addiction field, a lot of people that come in to see us also have mental health issues. 212 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:52,160 And a lot of times we wear both hats. So the fact that you have somebody who's, you know, 213 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:58,640 again, I'm not trying to discredit LMSWs or LMHCs, I think that, you know, obtaining that license 214 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:06,000 is a lot of hard work. However, the only difference between an LMHC or an LMSW and a KSAC is that 215 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,760 one extra year of education to get that master's degree. And I think that that one year should not 216 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:19,120 be the defining factor between, you know, basically being able to have a work-life balance and also 217 00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:24,720 being able to have the ability to make the, you know, the money that you need to to live comfortably. 218 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:34,160 Yeah. And then I think another issue too is the, so as a substance abuse counselor, alcoholism and 219 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,400 substance abuse counselor slash mental health assistant, that's what my associate's degree is, 220 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:45,760 right? You get your training in mental health, but it's not as, say, in depth as your licensed 221 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,320 mental health counselor or as a specific mental health program, which is for me kind of mind 222 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:58,320 boggling because of the co-occurrence ratio with mental health and substance use that they go 223 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:04,320 hand in hand. Oh, absolutely. You have individuals, right? Just beginning out in the field that they 224 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:10,080 learn a little bit, they learn how to diagnose via the DSM-5, et cetera, and they may know their 225 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:17,040 medications and they're really on top of their counseling shit, but they aren't prepared to the 226 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,000 levels of mental health diagnosis that they're seeing and they're not being trained appropriately. 227 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,920 So you'll have individuals that meet with their clients and it's, they have a growing list of 228 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:35,760 clients that they deem to be, how do you say, bad Apple clients, they'll call them or they'll say 229 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:43,200 tough clients, right? Instead of not realizing that, hey, if you were better trained and more 230 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,560 able to recognize the signs of the symptoms you're seeing, you would probably be able to 231 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:54,320 better deal with and communicate with the clients that you're here in contact with. 232 00:23:55,120 --> 00:24:01,680 It's just not something that's offered. There should be more mental health training, right? 233 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,640 And I'll give you an example. So with our agency, Creative Restoration, we have a portion of our 234 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:12,320 program where it's about harm reduction, embracing that harm reduction and getting into the community, 235 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,520 putting boots on the ground. And the term I like to use is bringing the clinic to the client, right? 236 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:25,680 Right. So we have individuals we use sometimes that are volunteers or some of them are entry-level, 237 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:33,360 still in school, soon to be clinicians in this space and I'll have an individual say to me, 238 00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:38,080 wow, is it that individual was really high strung, huh? And I'll be like, well, what would, 239 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,000 why would you say that? Well, they're talking really fast. They can't keep the sentence together. 240 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,640 They're jumping around from W to B. And I said, well, do you think that could be a sign of a 241 00:24:48,640 -->

00:24:55,440 bigger symptom of a bigger diagnosis, right? Other than, you know, high strung. So I'm sitting there 242 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:01,360 offering that training and that guidance to where it's like, hey, maybe let's take a look at the 243 00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:06,960 symptoms and attribute them to a possible diagnosis so that way you can then find a better way to 244 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,640 communicate with that individual if you come across them again or someone like them. So what 245 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:18,080 we're seeing is counselors that really can't interact well with their clients. They can't 246 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:24,240 really build that therapeutic alliance and they're, they're moving from job to job to job thinking 247 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:29,040 it's going to get better. But in reality, it's due to a lack of quality supervision and lack of 248 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,800 quality training. Right. But you're absolutely right when it comes to, I'm sorry I got off on 249 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:40,560 that but no, that's okay. I'm going to touch on the KSAC not being recognized. It's not recognized 250 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:48,720 in Ohio. I'll tell you that for sure. I was in Ohio in 2018. I was attempting to transfer my 251 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,760 credentialing and license to Ohio to practice in Ohio and I was told, no, we'll take your 252 00:25:53,760 --> 00:26:01,920 associate's degree. But that's their KSAC, see? That's not worth the paper it was printed on. 253 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:08,000 And I said, excuse me. You know, like really that's nothing. It doesn't, it's not reciprocal here 254 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,760 but your, your, your associate's degree is and that would make you an LCBC2 which would be 255 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:21,360 starting salary of 60,000. So right. Now here it is. Same, same credential, same degree. 256 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:29,360 Left the field in New York making 40,000. Literally just 40,000. Same thing. Go to another 257 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:33,920 state. They take away one credential. Leave my one degree and that's 60,000. 258 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,160 My goodness. Yeah. That's crazy. I mean, yeah, you go literally anywhere else and you say, 259 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,360 I'm a KSAC and they look at you like dough. I'd like what? What is that? What is that? What does that 260 00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:52,640 mean? Um, yep. And here's the, and to get into the, to the other issues that you'll, you'll have 261 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:58,080 once you're starting as a beginning counselor. I'll say this to certain agencies, right? And this 262 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,720 used to miss me and I know some other individuals just started out. They may not have their skills 263 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,880 really developed and fine tuned, you know, right. Um, but my lived experience, your lived experience, 264 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,160 others with lived experience and helps them navigate through those rough edges so to speak. 265 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:19,360 You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Absolutely. Whereas someone that's book learned, they may not have 266 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:25,920 that, that experience to fall back on when they need it. So my, they're, all right. So when you 267 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:31,360 get into it, being a counselor, this is what I'll tell you. I'll use my example as in the methadone 268 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:38,800 industry, I guess you would say, or the counselor there. Yeah. I was given as a new, a new counselor, 269 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,960 all of the clients that the other counselors, when they're trying to get their caseloads down and 270 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,440 get my caseload built up, they would give me their quote unquote problem client. 271 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:57,760 And that was everywhere across the board. What I mean by problem clients are individuals that, 272 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,440 again, counselors don't have the skills to be able to communicate with, right? Or maybe they 273 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:10,240 are difficult. Yeah. Or they know show all the time or, you know, they constantly are, you know, 274 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,400 if you're in an abstinence based program, they'll pop positive and you're like, I don't know how 275 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:21,840 to help them. Right. You know, so now you're getting this huge caseload of say 30 to 40 people that 276 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,720 are deemed to be problem people. Now it's like you're set in the stage for these clients to fail, 277 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:33,040 first of all, and your interaction with them to fail. And then second, you're giving a new counselor 278 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:42,400 individuals that need more in depth experience, degree of care. Right. And what happens to those 279 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,600 individuals, sometimes they fall through the cracks, they end up overdosing, they end up dying 280 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,840 potentially, right. And then that counselor, because of their negative experience at that 281 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:57,440 agency, they go to another one thinking it's going to be different. But it's different. It's 282 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,960 yeah, the same. And yeah, and I mean, it's, I'm glad that you brought up that point because, you 283 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:07,760 know, I, I understand from the perspective of the counselors, like I remember being that counselor, 284 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,320 where, you know, Johnny is joining us, you know, he's going to be a new counselor, make sure that you 285 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,840 give us, you know, five people from your caseload. And like, it's only human nature to be like, well, 286 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,360 I'm going to get rid of these people that are my headache, you know, right. But that's not the fault 287 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:28,000 of the

counselor, that's the fault of the agency, not having the proper staff and the proper, you 288 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,400 know, environment to be able to really help these individuals, because you're absolutely right. 289 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:38,640 That person then who, you know, gets that individual on their caseload, they, they either don't have 290 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,280 the skills to be able to help that person that needs the help, or they're so overloaded with new 291 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:51,280 clients, that they don't have the time to be able to help. Because that's the thing too, is like, 292 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:59,120 the caseloads right now are just insane. You know, you can't effectively help somebody meeting with 293 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:05,200 them once a week, especially if you have a caseload of, let's say, 50 plus clients, it's just not 294 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:11,120 possible to be able to really delve into the root causes of their addiction problems, and be able to 295 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:18,400 provide them with effective strategies to overcome those issues in, you know, one 45 minute session 296 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:24,480 once a week, you know, and even get that. Right, exactly. And, you know, like a lot of times these, 297 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,160 these clients feel like they're just a number, because unfortunately, a lot of these agencies 298 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,440 treat them like they are. You know, it's very like, you know, how much billing can we get from 299 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:40,480 these people, you know, it's not, it's not focused on the quality of the sessions that you're giving, 300 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,320 it's focused on the quantity of the sessions, right. So they want to build as much as possible. 301 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:47,760 Yeah, I mean, it's, 302 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,520 Yeah, it comes down to policy, right, 303 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:55,200 which creates those environments, right, like, so I was reading an article yesterday where it 304 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:02,560 mentioned how Oasis had some funding deficits. They were going to get like 14 million taken away 305 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:09,200 from them and supposedly, you know, powers that be in the state government, we're going to supplement 306 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:14,240 them with opioid funds, etc, etc. But when you have a, that's a topic we're going to get into a 307 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:21,120 little bit later, but when you have agencies getting cut from funding that's always typically been 308 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:28,960 there, then you're starting to force these agencies into creating an environment of almost like it's 309 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,960 like your ass is on fire. Oh my God, what are we going to do? Oh my God, we don't have the money 310 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:38,800 for this. Now all of a sudden, they're rushing to create a program or to, I don't want to create, 311 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,840 but to tailor their program to meet their funding needs, you know what I mean? And then 312 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:50,640 the only people that suffer from behind that are the clients. Absolutely. And then come in second, 313 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:55,920 are the counselors trying to provide the care with very limited funding, very limited budget, 314 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,400 because the budgets were cut again, and now you have an agency, maybe they can't hire all the 315 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,160 staff that they need, and you do end up with a caseload 50 to 80. I've had caseloads of 86 people. 316 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:13,760 86, right? And next, there should be caseload caps. I think that should be one of those things 317 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:19,360 that we talk about too. No entry level counselors should be given 80 people on their caseload. 318 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:26,800 No, absolutely not. Period. And think about that as to why people are leaving, right? You're making 319 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,440 crappy pay, and you're getting all these people, you got to talk to all this stress, 320 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:36,400 and I'm going to wash some cars and make the same amount. Yeah, you know, it's like, it's no wonder 321 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,440 that people get burnt out so easily. This is the standard across the board, you know? All right, 322 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:47,200 so I think from here, we're going to jump into a little break. So right now, I'm going to be 323 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:55,120 fitting into some music here. This is a song that I made like a couple of years ago now. 324 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:01,360 It's called Is Manay Is An Instrument, and it's through my side project, Gary, so take a listen. 325 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,960 Hello, everyone. So I'd just like to give a few shout outs to some of our community supporters. 326 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,320 We have a lot of community businesses that show support to some of our initiatives. 327 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:29,440 And one of the big shout outs I'd like to give is to Franco's Pizza. They're donating all of the 328 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:35,680 pizza that we have to serve our guests for our holiday basket raffle on Saturday, December 7th, 329 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:41,440 from 11 a.m. right here at Trinity Church here in Buffalo, New York. Inside this raffle, you'll 330 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,840 have multiple different baskets that were also donated by Coleman's Cleaners. Anderson's Custards, 331 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:54,480 Sign Memorabilia from the Buffalo Bills, Buffalo Savers, and the Buffalo Bandits. So we're hoping 332 00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,800 to see as many people as we can here and a big shout out and big thank you to those businesses 333 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:08,080 for donating another big shout out to Wegmans. They donated some 200-hour gift card to our 334 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:13,280

Thanksgiving turkey dinner drive last year. We were able to feed 60 families this year. We're 335 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:19,120 able, we're trying to serve double that number and thanks to Wegmans, we're on a good path to 336 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:25,040 make that number. And then last but not least, Public Auto Connect. You've seen the rest now. 337 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,080 Deal with the best. If you're looking for a new or used car, please don't hesitate to reach out to 338 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:36,080 Public Auto Connect. They're located at 1754 Abbott Road right here in the city of Buffalo. 339 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:44,000 Also, thank you again, last, last, lastly, thank you again. Big shout out to Eric White at Big 340 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:52,480 Indian Drift Fit for their donations and time spent helping Hurricane Helene clean up efforts. 341 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:59,040 They're wonderful people. Eric is always about community. I just want to give him a shout out 342 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,800 and let him know that we here at Creative Restorations, I&C, we see you Eric. We appreciate 343 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,360 all that you do for the community and we'd love to be a part of anything else you have going on. 344 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,640 So everyone, I just gave a shout out to thank you so much. 345 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:24,240 All right. So now we're going to get into what we feel like our solutions to these problems should 346 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:32,080 be or what we feel like the actions that people that are empowered to make decisions to affect 347 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:38,320 change what they should do. So I know like the one thing that we talked about for sure was the 348 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:46,720 counseling compact thing. So just to recap that real quick, what that is, is it's a federally 349 00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:54,960 recognized, I guess for lack of a better word agency where they have a license for alcohol 350 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,600 and drug counselors. And I think it's like 28 states that are a part of this counseling compact 351 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:07,840 consortium thing. And New York state is not one of them. So a solution would be to instead of just 352 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:15,680 having the KSAC credential, which is only recognized in New York state, is to get New York state into 353 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:22,480 that counseling compact so that that way also that would help with oversight of Oasis really. I mean, 354 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,640 I think that with some things that are happening right now within Oasis that there needs to be 355 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:36,240 more federal oversight personally. But also just that whole being a part of that federal consortium 356 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:43,200 there would just give counselors more freedom to explore opportunities outside of New York state. 357 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,440 Because again, you know, people look at a KSAC

and they're like, I have no idea what that is. 358 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:56,800 So yeah, I think that we need to reach out to our legislators. And we really need to, you know, 359 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:01,760 people in the addiction profession need to just, you know, lay it all out for them and say their 360 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:07,920 reasonings for why we feel that this is something that needs to be done, why we feel that, you know, 361 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:14,480 Oasis maybe needs a little bit more oversight. And Chris, I know we were going to talk about one of 362 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:22,800 the unfortunate things that's happening with Oasis is the opiate settlement funds are being 363 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:32,480 misappropriated. Yeah, I don't know to what degree. I know it was recommended by Governor Hockel that 364 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,400 she would potentially, you know, take the normal funding that she would give to Oasis and put it 365 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:44,160 into another area of need and then just push some opiate settlement funding over there. And 366 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,760 I don't know if that passed or not. I didn't see if it did. But at the end of the day, 367 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:56,080 it's that's not what that's for. And I think that's one of my big rallying cries is listen, 368 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:02,720 as a small community based organization that relies on grant funding, and that's on the streets, 369 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:07,520 providing our can provide and harm reduction supplies, providing basic needs, getting individuals 370 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:17,200 into treatment, getting them set up with healthcare doctors, etc. We feel I feel my staff feel that 371 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:25,520 to take money that was designed and earmarked for sub not supplementing already existing funds, but 372 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:33,040 it's adding to those existing funds to create even more treatment options, even more recovery 373 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:39,040 options. Like that's what it's for new creative ideas, maybe potentially providing some small 374 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:45,200 community based organizations that are doing really great work in high overdose cities, 375 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,760 areas, etc. Maybe getting them fully funded and getting them up to capacity. So that way, 376 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:54,880 maybe they can be a part of that solution more so than they already are. 377 00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,160 Right. Right. And I mean, yeah, kind of kind of to piggyback off of that, too. I mean, 378 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,840 I think that there needs to be coming from those opiate settlement funds. I think there needs 379 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:12,880 to be maybe a specific grant just for new, you know, businesses within the addiction field that 380 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:18,480 are just starting out because a lot of times you find that you're competing with these large 381 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:24,640 organizations that, you know, maybe unfortunately don't have the best intentions, you know, at heart, 382 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,080 you know, that you're competing for these huge grants that could really help to get your business 383 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,920 off the ground so that you can do the work to help the people in these communities. But, you 384 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:38,560 know, you can't compete with, you know, some of these huge companies. So yeah. 385 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:46,080 Yeah. And then sorry to cut you off. It's just like, it brings up another topic. It's so when 386 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:52,880 you're just starting out as an agency, whether nonprofit, LLC, whatever, unless you have a donor 387 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,760 backing you, you already know things are going to be a little bit tough and you already know that 388 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:04,160 just starting out, you're not going to be able to acquire federal grants, state grants, because 389 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,280 you just don't have the capacity to fill those and meet those needs yet. So you're left chasing 390 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:15,280 these different foundational grants, different little county grants, if you can get them. And 391 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:21,360 what happens in that grant process, and I'll tell you through a local RFP process, you have smaller 392 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,120 nonprofit agencies like Aaron mentioned that are going against six figure, seven figure and better 393 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:35,040 agencies that have been in existence for years that have an ability to have income outside of that 394 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,840 grant that they're applying for. So it's like, why are you putting these small agencies and 395 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:45,440 pitting them up against these larger agencies knowing that they can't compete? And what happened 396 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,640 over time, and we've seen it, is that these smaller agencies are closing their doors, 397 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:57,360 they're shutting down. And what happens is now you have a monopoly of a few agencies that are the 398 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:05,520 only ones around offering said care. And that's not cool. And I think that needs to be addressed. 399 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:14,800 I think, I don't know whether it's just New York State in itself, trying to come out and maybe 400 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,680 sponsor some legislature related to that or specific counties, I don't know. I don't even know 401 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:25,600 how we would even get to that point of separating maybe these agencies that are applying for RFPs 402 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,960 into tier systems. I mean, I think that's it. I think it's just there needs to be like a specific 403 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:38,480 process for if you're a new nonprofit starting out, if you're in existence for under a year, 404 00:41:39,280 -->

00:41:44,960 there have to be specific grants and programs available to you so that you can get that business 405 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:51,680 off the ground. Because a lot of people that go into doing nonprofit work like this in a small 406 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:59,680 capacity, like you, for example, you're not looking to become a millionaire. They don't go into it 407 00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,000 because they think they're going to get rich. They go into it because they want to genuinely help 408 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:11,280 their communities thrive and help people kind of reintegrate into that society. And so I think 409 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:18,640 that there needs to be a process in place where you have somebody maybe like an accountant through 410 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,960 Oasis or something or professionals on the business back end of it who can help with 411 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:29,200 getting that business portion of it figured out and settled. So you can focus on developing your 412 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:35,280 program to meet the needs of the people in the community. I think that's a huge need. I think 413 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:41,760 it's a necessity. I think so too. And to even piggyback further on that, you're seeing a lot of 414 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:48,720 staff leaving these bigger agencies because of some of the issues we mentioned before and where 415 00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:56,240 are they landing at? Either they're creating with a bunch of other people, they're another 416 00:42:56,240 --> 00:43:01,920 nonprofit for the community, maybe they're even going to work for these smaller nonprofits in 417 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:07,680 the community because they want that a little bit more hands-on approach with their clients, 418 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,320 whatever the reasons are. But if you're not supporting these community-based organizations 419 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,760 that are on the street, put in boots on the ground and they're your first line of defense, 420 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:24,880 I think that is what's starting us off on the bad foot. It's like, how can you change policy or 421 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:31,040 do anything like that when we're already coming from a place of being fucked up? You know what I 422 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:37,840 mean? Yeah, absolutely. Like it makes no sense. But I want to say, there needs to be a federal or 423 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:46,400 a state entry-level set pay rate. This is one of the only fields that I know of that doesn't have a 424 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:54,000 union. And this is something that I've been thinking of and thinking about for years. Like, why 425 00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,320 is it that we don't have a union but yet we have people's lives in our hands. We're no 426 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:05,760 different than a healthcare professional in the sense that the things that we're working with 427 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:12,240 these individuals that are

struggling on is no different than a health issue that a doctor's 428 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:18,320 worked on with a patient. Well, actually, I think there is a union. I think it's SEIU-1199. 429 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,840 The healthcare professionals? I think that's our union. I mean, it's not like specific to 430 00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:29,040 substance use. Like it's not a counseling. But it's just, yeah, we definitely need like a 431 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:36,240 counseling one. Yeah. But even, I'll say this as far as union stuff. So when I worked in a 432 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:44,320 nameless agency, we had people from the union come in and, you know, present to us, give us the 433 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:51,200 union cards. And it was like me and two other people that had signed the union cards. And we 434 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,880 ended up getting called into an office and basically being like, we don't, we have them come in, we 435 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:03,520 don't mess with the union. Like, like actively union busting is also happening in this field. And so 436 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,800 that's again, another reason why there, yeah, there needs to be a union for sure. There needs to be 437 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,960 federally regulated pay scales, I feel like, because, you know, you kind of mentioned it earlier 438 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:19,120 when we were talking about the issues, like we kind of touched on it. But there are a lot of 439 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:24,880 people who go into this field who are, you know, freshly graduated, they go in and they genuinely 440 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,800 do want to help people. But, you know, people still have bills to pay, people still have families to 441 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:34,640 take care of. And the starting rate for a new counselor is about the same as somebody flipping 442 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:40,960 burgers at McDonald's. Yeah, no, like, I'll say this, they, the old adage that this is what my 443 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,880 father told me before he passed, right? He said, Chris, he was like, any field that you get into, 444 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:53,440 if you have to go to school for a degree for it, the ending salary that you're going to get as a 445 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:58,320 result of getting this degree should be two times the amount of student loan debt that you are in. 446 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:06,640 Okay. Yeah. So if my student loan debt right now is 20, I don't want to say 26,000, right? 447 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:12,880 That's within the so-called she-hits, dude, within associates. That's crazy. That's insane. And a lot 448 00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:18,560 of that is due to interest, but how can you pay and come up with a payment plan to pay off your 449 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:24,720 student loans if the salary you're making is less than two times the amount of your loan? 450 00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:28,800 Right. And that's another thing too. I'm kind of glad that you pointed that out because I know a 451 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,840 lot of people will make the argument, well, you know, there's a federal program for people in the 452 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,400 healthcare field who, you know, if you make 10 years of payments towards your student loans, 453 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:44,400 you can get them forgiven. But that, I mean, unfortunately, we're not in the healthcare 454 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,360 field. We're not really in the healthcare field. We are. We are. It's just we are considered in the 455 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,440 healthcare field. We're just not compensated the way other people in the healthcare field are. 456 00:46:53,440 --> 00:47:00,800 That's the issue. That's what I'm saying is like with our salaries, having to pay student loans, 457 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:06,320 which some of them, I mean, my student loans, I want to say are up to like 40 grand. I mean, 458 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,920 like hundreds of dollars a month in addition to rent, in addition to childcare, in addition to, 459 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:18,080 you know, utilities, in addition to whatever car payments, whatever, like, it's just not feasible 460 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:23,680 a lot of the time with the salary that's being presented to us, especially at first. 461 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:29,600 I think, I think sorry, I think this brings up another solution. I think, you know, how they 462 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:34,400 used to have the thing where if you work at a nonprofit for five years after you get your degree, 463 00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:39,200 you get your loans forgiven. Well, that's been, I believe it's been done away with that's no longer 464 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,960 in existence. Oh, yeah. No, that's not a thing anymore. Right. So my thing is, all right, how do 465 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:49,520 you bring something back that says, okay, if you are working in a, if you're going into the counseling 466 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:54,320 profession, specifically substance use counseling or the peer profession, whatever it is that you're 467 00:47:54,320 --> 00:48:00,160 doing, but you get a degree to get it, they should automatically after five years of service inside of 468 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,560 that field, they should do away with your student loan because they know that you're not making much 469 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:10,640 money here. You're not. So that's one way if they're not going to give you more money on the front 470 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,760 end. Okay, give me something on the back end, right? Give me something that in a couple years time, 471 00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:21,280 that I know that I'm not going to have to pay into anymore, pay towards the pay off. Yeah. Right. 472 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:26,080 But give me some, some type of relief, right? And I think they have the ability to do it, 473 00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:31,680 whether they will or not, like it is what

it is. But I think that should be done. Definitely. 474 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:39,120 Well, and I think that goes into that too. Yeah. And, and, you know, kind of just to like wrap up 475 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:45,040 kind of what we've been saying just in general is that like, a lot of these solutions that we're 476 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:53,520 presenting are coming from people like us who have lived experience. And it's falling on deaf ears 477 00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:59,520 with these, you know, federal and state agencies because they don't have people in their leadership, 478 00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:05,520 at least as far as I know, who have that lived experience, you know, I think, I think Dr. 479 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:11,760 Jananzo Cunningham is doing a great job being the Oasis Commissioner. Do I think that she was ever in 480 00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:17,200 the trenches trying to, you know, pull herself out of withdrawal or like, you know, trying to find 481 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:23,040 money so that she could like get a hit somewhere on the street? No. Do I think anybody in senior 482 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:28,720 leadership in Oasis has ever been in that situation? No. And that's, I think, where they're 483 00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:37,440 lacking greatly. Also, let me touch on that too. Like, I think another solution to allowing Oasis 484 00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,600 and the powers that be, and I know we're like kicking a lot of rocks in their direction. And 485 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,960 again, Oasis, I'm sorry if you listen, but you're policy makers, right? You are the ones who can 486 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:52,000 affect the change. Right. So we have to talk about it, right? So my thing is like this, if you want 487 00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,120 to really get connected with the community based organizations, things like that and really see 488 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:03,040 what the struggles of your agencies are, just don't go to the agency for an hour, talk with 489 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:08,640 upper administrators, maybe go for two hours, talk to staff after you're done with the administrators. 490 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:14,880 No, actually go and sit with them, do their job with them. I'm inviting anyone, Jananzo herself, 491 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:19,200 any of her top administrators, I'm inviting all of you to come out with me on an outreach. 492 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:26,640 Come with me, see what we do. Yeah. See the individuals that we talk to. See how we're 493 00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:31,600 able to really meet them where they are and provide services to them that nobody else is. 494 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,680 And you can hear the reason potentially why nobody else is. Right. Right. Get with us, come with us, 495 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:45,360 come out and really be a part of the change process, not just putting out policy, not just 496 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:51,840 handing out funding, come out with us. I'll keep you safe, I promise. Keep you safe. But I really 497 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:57,680 want to, I really want someone from Oasis to really see what these community-based organizations 498 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,640 are out here doing in the streets and how we are your first line of defense and how we feel, 499 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:09,440 I feel that we're not respected enough. And that comes back into the big picture and to tie it up 500 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:17,120 into both. Ultimately, thank you Oasis for the pin. Thank you for the letter. I appreciate it, 501 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:22,720 that you didn't have to do that. And I really, that did make me smile to a degree. But at the end 502 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:28,400 of the day, my bills are mounting up. I've got things that need to be paid off and that letter 503 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:34,240 or that pin isn't eligible to be churned in for payment of my utility bills. Right. And I mean, 504 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:40,160 it's not even just that. It's the fact that we're out here and we are doing life-saving work. 505 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,360 I've had clients where I've had to administer Narcan to them before. And I know you have to. 506 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,240 I mean, we've both seen people at their lowest points and we both have stories, success stories, 507 00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:58,640 of being able to pull people out of rock bottom. And to be basically told, we see you 508 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:06,000 in the same scope as somebody who works at a McDonald's in terms of financial compensation. 509 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:11,840 That's not respect. It's hurtful. How do they see us? And through what glasses? Through Mr. 510 00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:19,440 Magoo's glasses? Right. And to go back to your point about inviting Oasis leadership to come out 511 00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:24,800 into the field, I think that's a great idea. I also just want to add on to that. Going back to the 512 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:32,240 LEAP panel, I think she was present for the first meeting of the LEAP panel. But when it was advertised 513 00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:36,240 to us, it was that she was going to be present for every meeting. And I just think that it is so 514 00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:41,600 important for her to be present at these meetings. We want you to hear what we have to say. We want 515 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:46,720 to collaborate with you. We don't just want to go and attack Oasis and have it like a bitch fest 516 00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,680 for an hour. We want to express to you what's going on so that you can help to make these 517 00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:56,720 concrete changes. Because things are just going to continue down this cycle if we just ignore it 518 00:52:56,720 --> 00:53:03,840 and pretend like it's not important. And I think that they need to take this panel more seriously. 519 00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:11,680 They need to, again, involve more people who have that lived

experience in leadership. 520 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:21,040 And last but not least, create a hybrid position. Create a hybrid position that is half peer, 521 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:25,920 half counselor, right? This is a counselor that has lived experience, but they also, 522 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:29,280 maybe they started off as a peer and then they said, you know what, let me try the council 523 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,760 inside of this shit out and see how this works. And then before you know it, they're jumping between 524 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:39,360 counselor peer, counselor peer, and that's kind of where I'm at. I'm in that limbo where daily in 525 00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:45,120 my interaction with individuals I'm helping, I have to always be cognizant of the lane that I'm in 526 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,840 and that I'm not crossing those lines. Kind of like, you know how in Ghostbusters, sorry, 527 00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:54,320 I got to Ghostbusters, I do not own the rights to that film, don't cross streams, right? 528 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,600 You have to be cognizant of that. You have to be cognizant of not crossing those streams. So what 529 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:05,840 can you do to not have those streams be crossed and what can you do to better meet the individuals 530 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:12,000 that we serve as well as creating another position that allows that lived experience to come out a 531 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:20,240 little bit more with the interactions with the clients and that it also, it gives another avenue 532 00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:26,160 of a position for us with lived experience to go after and to be able to feel comfortable in. 533 00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,800 Right. Right. Because as a counselor, that's why I got the peer. I wasn't comfortable as a counselor. 534 00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:37,040 I wasn't comfortable. It just didn't feel right. Right? Like I have that, that the biggest selling 535 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,840 point that I have is what I've gone through. And if I can't barely touch on it, only during times 536 00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,960 when it's appropriate or beneficial to the client, I really feel like it's really doing a disservice 537 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,560 to them because they don't know that I'm been there and that I can really relate to them. 538 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:57,920 Right. Yeah. And it's like, you know, something that's like, you know, makes you unique in, 539 00:54:57,920 --> 00:55:03,600 you know, in your counseling style. And it's basically them asking you to suppress a part 540 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:08,160 of yourself. And I don't think that's right. If we're asking our clients to be open and honest 541 00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:15,520 with us and to, you know, for us to be non-judgmental of them, I feel like it's only appropriate that 542 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:24,400 we should be able to, you know, be ourselves. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. So I mean, with that said, 543 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:31,120 obviously we want to call on Oasis to, like we said, you know, just, just listen to the people 544 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,280 who are out there in the trenches, out there doing boots on the ground, working with clients. 545 00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:41,840 And, you know, I would also call on, you know, Senator Gillibrand and Senator Chuck Schumer, 546 00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:49,840 Governor Kathy Huckle, you know, even, even SAMHSA, the Federal Department of Substance Abuse 547 00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:55,280 and Mental Health Services, I would say, you know, those, they need to work with states, 548 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:01,120 state legislators and state, you know, policymakers to, to make it, you know, these, 549 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:07,920 these problems don't only exist in New York state. Right. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. And it's 550 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,320 only going to get worse. The opiate crisis is only getting worse. The fentanyl crisis is only 551 00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:18,560 getting worse. And until we really recognize the needs of not only the clients, but the needs of 552 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,320 the addiction professionals who are out there doing the work, we're going to just continue to be in 553 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:29,120 this, this state of panic, really. No, that's it. And you hit the nail on the head. And with the one 554 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:34,640 point of, this is the one, one of two areas that really hasn't ever changed over time in the other 555 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:40,320 school, right? Like, you need to acclimate to the individuals that we're providing the information to. 556 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:45,120 We need to adapt. Right. That's the one thing that I was always taught when I was in college, 557 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:50,720 going for my degree, which was the professor worded it perfectly. In this field, you have to 558 00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:57,200 be a chameleon. You have to be able to adapt and evolve and always keep your thumb on the pulse of 559 00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:02,640 the people that you're serving and of the pulse of the treatment community as treatment professional 560 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:09,040 community as a whole, because there's always going to be new advancements, new modalities of treatment, 561 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:14,880 et cetera, et cetera. But yet here we are still stuck in that cookie cutter approach. Right. 562 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:19,840 The way we're offering things. And I think let's try to adapt a little bit. And we have in certain 563 00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:24,560 ways, right? We're moving kind of away from that abstinence approach a little bit to meet people 564 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:30,400 where they are, so to speak. But I think there's more left to be done. And let's hope that these 565 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,520 conversations that we've had today can help spur that change. Yeah, we can only hope.

566 00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:42,800 Well, I think that's about it for this episode. Next episode, we're going to be talking about, 567 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:47,200 so this is going to be kind of a two-parter where this episode, you know, we're talking more about 568 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:52,800 the clinical counseling aspect of the workforce retention. And the next episode, we want to get 569 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:58,080 more into the peer side of things, because that is a very, very important piece of the addiction 570 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:07,040 field. So yeah, any closing thoughts, Chris? Yeah. If anyone in the Western New York area 571 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:12,320 struggling, you know, whether you're going through situations that life comes up and you're 572 00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:17,920 hurting with basic needs, if you're in recovery and you're struggling with that, we got you. If you 573 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,720 are looking for any other services, please don't hesitate to reach out to us here at Creative 574 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:28,880 Restoration's INC. We'll provide peer support, case management, basic needs acquisition, 575 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:40,320 and pretty much anything else that we can help you with, okay? You can find us at www.creativrestorationINC.org, 576 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:53,600 or you can contact us at 716-405-4011, or at contactus at creativerestorationINC.org. And a big thank you 577 00:58:53,600 --> 00:59:00,960 again to all of the community businesses that are helping and that have helped with our initiatives 578 00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:05,360 and drives that we have going on. I really appreciate you. And again, I want to leave the 579 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:10,720 listeners with this one thought, and I always use this, and I've used it in a bunch of different 580 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:18,720 interviews that I've done. If failure wasn't an option, what would we do? So let's tie that up 581 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:24,720 in a bow. I'm going to say it one more time. Oasis, our local legislators, treatment providers, 582 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:32,080 our community in general, if we knew that failure wasn't an option, how would we address this crisis? 583 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:38,400 And I think that's how we need to start looking at things when it comes to the state of this field, 584 00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:46,480 basically. Yeah. Yeah. And I would also say too, if you know anybody who is in any kind of position 585 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:54,160 of power, anybody who is a policymaker, send them this podcast. And also, if there's any topic that 586 00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:58,400 you would like us to touch on in future episodes, if you have any comments that you'd like to leave, 587 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:04,560 again, you can reach us at that email that Chris said, contact us at creativerestaurationsinc.org. 588 01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:27,040 Thank you guys so much for listening. Yeah, and we'll see you on the next episode.