สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
WEBVTT
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Straw media. DTF stands for down
to expletive go to bed with someone,
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and we decided to completely flip the
script on what DPF stood for. Do
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you find that as the holiday season
closes in you feel more pressure to find
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romance? And maybe it's the movies, maybe it's the cold weather, maybe
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it's the shorter days, or maybe
it's just in our heads. Either way,
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dating as a queer person can sometimes
feel like a mine field, and
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add in a lack of inclusive language
on dating apps, the whole prospect can
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just seem overwhelming. Bumble hinge grinder, her Tender. Though some are more
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inclusive than others, they often fall
short. But one app is trying really
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hard to improve the dating experience for
the lgbt Q plus community. Almost twenty
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years ago, okay Cupid introduced online
dating to young people. It was one
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of the first of its kind and
also one of the first to offer an
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inclusive space for members of the lgbt
Q plus community. I'm Levi Chambers.
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My pronouns are he him, his, And today on Pride we're talking to
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Michael Ka, Associate director of Global
Communications at okay Cupid. We'll hear about
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okay Cupid's history of inclusivity and what
sets it apart from other dating apps.
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How Michael came to his role at
okay Cupid, and what it means to
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work for a company that values and
celebrates queer people, the recent major expansion
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of gender and identities on the app, and whether or not the moral capital
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translates to business capital. Hey,
I'm Michael Kay and this is Pride.
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So hello, Michael. Thank you
very much for joining us today to talk
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about this amazing company that you work
for. So first, could you go
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ahead and talk a little bit about
where you work and what kind of your
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responsibilities are and what what you do
from the day to day at that company.
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Absolutely, First, thank you so
much for having me here today.
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It's such an honor to be here. So I work at the dating app
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okay Cupid. We've been around for
nearly two decades at this point, so
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we are definitely an o G in
the dating game, and in my role,
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I'm really focused on storytelling for our
brand across markets all over the world,
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from North America to the Middle East
to Southeast Asia. So it's really
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fun to get to talk about dating
and relationships and how those really differ based
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on where you live and who you
are. Okay Cupid first launch almost twenty
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years ago in two thousand four,
and even so it was a trail blazer
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for inclusivity. It was started by
four Harvard guys that were not queer.
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They weren't even looking for love.
Instead, what interested them was more of
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a social experiment. The question was, is there a scientific way to predict
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compatibility. What's really different about okay
Cupid from all the other dating apps out
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there is that we are the only
dating app of the world that matches you
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on what matters to you, and
we do that through thousands of app matching
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questions. And before anyone panics if
you create an account on okay Cupid,
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we are not going to put you
to work and make you answer thousands of
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questions, um, but we do
make you answer at least fifteen, although
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most people go on to answer dozens
and dozens more. And those questions really
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cover everything you could imagine within the
dating relationships and suck realm. But we
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also have questions that um relate to
anything that's top of mind for millennial and
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Gen Z daters, from black lives
matter to climate change to reproductive healthcare,
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marriage equality, and other lgbt Q
plus rights. And because of these questions,
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we are really able to create a
tailored experience for every single person who
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uses are at, whether you are
a bisexual person dating in New York City,
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or a straight user dating in London, or a gay person dating in
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Mumbai. UM and we have localized
questions in over thirty countries around the world,
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so you know, British daters have
things that are top of mind that
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American daters might not care about.
And similarly, we also have a whole
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set of questions for lgbt Q plus
people because we recognize that what's top of
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mind for straight people might not be
top of mind for the queer community.
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Load full transcript
And even within our own community.
I mean I myself identify as gay,
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so within our own community, we
have questions for lesbians, questions for gay
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people, for bisexuals UM So we
really use these questions to create an experience
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that feels really unique to every single
person on the app. This inclusivity that
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you've that you just kind of described, and it goes beyond the LGBTQ plus
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community to even people within certain geographic
regions. Why has inclusivity been a precept
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of okay Cupid really seemingly since the
beginning, and why do you think it
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has taken so many of the other
dating apps and some of them still really
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aren't that focused on that level of
inclusivity. UM, why is it taking
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them so long to follow suit or
catch up? We're a dating app.
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People are coming onto our platform to
find love of to find meaningful relationships.
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And if you're not able to show
up as your truest self and express yourself
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however you possibly want, then we're
really not doing our job, or you
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know, if we're not creating a
space where you can do that. UM.
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We were the first leading dating app
to create a dedicated space on profiles
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for lgbt Q plus people to share
their pronouns, and we actually recently opened
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up that feature to our straight users
to UM because we want to really normalize
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the use of gender pronouns, and
it also makes it easier for our non
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binary and transgender users when they're seeing
straight people use pronouns as well. UM.
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We were also the first dating app
to offer expanded gender and orientation options,
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so we now offer twenty two gender
and twenty orientation options for our datas
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to choose from, and last Pride
Month so Prime Month, we actually expanded
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our identity options for our l g
B t Q plus data specifically, and
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some of those expanded identity options included
terms like their bottom switch versatile. Michael
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says. Okay Cupid now offers over
sixty identity options to choose from, with
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the option to choose up to five
at any time. And with all that
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added specificity and inclusivity, the folks
that okay cupids on an opportunity for education.
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So we spoke to non binary people, we spoke to transgender people,
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and they were saying, hey,
it's great that you offer all all these
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options, but what's happening is I'm
being matched with people who don't really understand
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what my identity is. So we
partnered with the Human Rights Campaign and we
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started adding definitions to all the different
identities we off for to our users.
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And when we think about inclusivity,
it's not just the l g B t
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Q plus community. So we have
a really great feature that I love on
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okay qpid. It's called profile badges, and this allows us to let our
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own datas signal to other people what's
really important to them. So we've released
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a climate change advocate badge over the
years. During the summer of we actually
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launched the Black Lives Matter profile badge
so that our users could signal to other
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people that they were in support of
the BLM movement, and over eight intend
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datas decided to add that badge to
their profiles. UM. So we're always
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using the product to make sure that
people feel really safe and comfortable on our
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platform. UM because if they're not
feeling like they can be themselves, like
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they're valued or heard or respected on
a platform where they're looking for love,
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they're never gonna be able to find, you know, those meaningful connections.
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So then in in countries let's say
that have anti lgbt Q laws or things
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like that, do you have to
navigate the political escape and kind of work
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within the guardrails of the culture essentially
UM to still be able to provide a
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platform where people are safe, if
that makes sense. What's beneficial to us
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is that we are always speaking to
our daters. We're not just talking to
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people in our own backyard. We're
speaking to people all around the world.
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We also have teams of people all
around the world, whether that's people who
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work specifically at okay Cupid or its
agency partners that we're leaning on. UM.
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So there are certain questions and features
that might show up for you if
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you're next to me in New York
City, UM, that won't show up
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for someone if
they're let's say,
in Turkey, and that's for their own
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safety. That's for their own protection. UM. It's also based on what
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they're comfortable talking about. We have
very and conversations, especially when it comes
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to some of these more conservative markets
where uh, you know, conversations around
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sexuality or sex or identity is a
little bit more taboo than it here than
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it is here in the United States. So we tailor our product to make
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sure that you know, people are
feeling safe and that they're um able to
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express themselves as much as they want
to. Many companies, especially ones who
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are operating in the same it's like
you have to contend with the political stances
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of lots of governments and societies and
and um political groups as opposed to just
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what's here in the United States.
Okay cup it is still very open about
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being a progressive company and trying to
be progressive even in those markets and to
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kind of express those progressive values even
if you have to, um, pull
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them back a little bit for the
safety of users like you just described.
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Do you think that helps or hurt
the company overall as a business, that
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is, you know, a platform
trying to connect people. That's a great
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question, UM, and I love
that you talked about it in terms of,
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you know, us catering to more
progressive issues, because we really don't
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see this, this being what we're
doing here at okay Cupid, as something
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that should be politicized. You know, we're not trying to align ourselves with
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different political parties around the world or
political candidates. What we are doing is
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we're listening to our gen z and
millennial daters. Those are the biggest demographics
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on okay Cupid. And those daters
are telling us that they are concerned about
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climate change, that they support the
Black Lives Matter movement, that they believe
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women should have the right to choose
what to do with their own bodies.
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So when our daters tell us that
something is really important to them to them,
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Um, and they do so by
answering our in app questions on all
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these topics, that allows us,
or really encourages us to create marketing campaigns
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and product features that resonate and mirror
the issues that are top of mind for
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those people. So in that way, it's it's almost like you are kind
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of crowdsourcing the platform in some way, you know what I mean, in
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terms of um asking these questions,
getting the feedback from the datas, and
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then using that to kind of guide
where you steer the company. Absolutely,
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I mean, when we started to
see that climate change was becoming a trending
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topic on our platform, we thought, why don't we introduce a feature where
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it goes right on your profile and
you can tell people that, yes,
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you believe climate change is real,
and yes you want your government to do
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something about it. And you know, features like that have been really successful
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in your pin It's it's literally from
us just listening to what people on our
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platform are saying is important to them. I mean, to me, that
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gives me a lot of hope to
see so many people expressed that black Lives
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Matter was important to them. So
I would imagine that that is not only
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nice to see in terms of things
you can do with the platform, fund
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badges and stuff like that, but
also somewhat promising about the future. You
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can kind of get a window into
the future especially with these younger demographics.
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That has to be somewhat uplifting for
you all. And and it's I mean
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it is to me just hearing that
absolutely. I mean, as I mentioned,
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I identify as a game man.
But the l g b t q
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I A community is not just important
to okay Cupid employees. Where seeing that
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it's really important to our datas as
well, and that is extremely uplifting And
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it makes me feel really happy to
come into my office or go to my
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living room and work for this company. You know, every single day,
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nearly of datas on our platform,
it's actually nine seven percent said that they
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care about lgbt Q plus issues and
seven intent datas say it's important that their
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match cares about this community as well. We also recently found that seven per
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00:14:30.720
cent of one and a half million
people on okay Cupid support marriage equality.
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Um. And honestly, how can
that not make you happy? Um?
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It gives me a lot of hope
for you know, the next generation that
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is coming up right behind us.
And you know, it makes me feel
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really good to be working at a
brand that is really excited to support all
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these different communities. I mean,
we're supporting the very people who are on
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our platform, and we're supporting the
very people who are in our office.
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Absolutely. It's like it's almost like
you have this this company that's like doubling
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as an amazing polling system that finds
out what's important to people beyond you know,
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dating and finding love and things like
that. These, you know,
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things that will eventually shape the world
in some ways. So tell me a
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little bit about your personal origin story
as we are recording today. I'm in
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New York City and I am actually
a New Yorker born and raised. My
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parents are Brooklyn born and raised.
UM. I went to college in New
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York. I've worked in the city
since graduating, so very loyal to this
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city and UM. After graduation,
I started getting right into public relations,
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which is what I do now.
I worked at different agencies across pretty much
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every brand you probably use in your
personal life, and in spring of someone
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from Okay keep It slid into my
d m s on LinkedIn and asked if
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I wanted to have a chat.
And over three years later, I am
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still here helping people find love all
around the world, and it's just been
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such a wild ride. Is this
what you saw yourself doing being a part
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of this sort of industry. Actually, no, I have like a very
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unique maybe experience with dating apps.
I didn't come out of the closet till
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after graduation, so I was almost
twenty three before I started telling people I
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was gay. And I turned to
dating apps after graduation because those were the
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only places where I could safely and
discreetly meet other gay men. And it
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was really overwhelming, and I was
really terrified, um of meeting up with
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them, because this was, you
know, something that I tried to hide
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about myself for my entire life at
that point, um, And I remember
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matching and connecting and talking to so
many different guys, and when it came
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to the point where you know,
they wanted to meet up, they wanted
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to bear a coffee or a drink
or whatever it was, I would always
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check it out. And I got
really scared. And there, you know,
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as a about to delete my dating
app, and I matched with one
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more guy and I thought, Okay, this will be the final conversation.
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Then we're deleting this and calling it
a day. And he was the one
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person I decided to meet up with
and go to dinner with, and over
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eight years later, we're still together. So congratulations, thank you. I
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wasn't on dating apps for long,
but I am, I guess, one
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of the best success stories for dating
app so I'm here to say they really
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do work. Um. But on
that note, like I never thought I'd
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find myself back at a dating app
in a different capacity. Your decision to
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join okay Cupid and dating did its
history of inclusion of i'm gonna say queer
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identities, but also just lots of
people, right, diversity, it's it's
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it's history and diversity did that way
you in one direction or the other in
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terms of joining the company? Was
it a factor you cared about? Absolutely?
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I mean before I joined, when
I was you know, during the
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interview process, when I was doing
all this research about okay Cupid, and
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I found that they had really been
committed to the lgbt Q plus community for
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one for years and years. That
made me feel safe, and it made
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me feel like when I walked through
these doors, I could show up as
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my true self. I didn't have
to hide anything about me. What really
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got me excited about this job was
not only seeing how inclusive of a product
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it really is, but when I
walked into the office, I saw people
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of all different backgrounds, and it
was actually the first time I saw an
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openly queer person in the C suite
and that person is responsible for building our
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product, and that meant a lot
to me because it was the first time
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where I felt visible, I felt
seen, and I I saw someone like
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myself reflected in you know, leadership, and it made me think that could
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be me one day. How does
that focus on diversity kind of flow through
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everything that the company does. Besides
our product features that were you know,
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releasing every year, we're also making
sure that with anything that we're putting out
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from the company, that it's reflective
of our values, of our mission,
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and of the very people that are
on our platform every single day. So
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in our our marketing campaigns, we
are showing interracial couples, we are showing
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queer couples. We're using models who
are people of color, We're using models
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who identify as non binary, models
who identify as transgender. Because it's really
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important to us that if we're creating
a safe space for these people on our
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app, that when they see a
commercial from Okay Cupid or they see a
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billboard from us, that they're also
seeing themselves reflected there as well. And
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sometimes people say that what we're doing
is controversial, and we really don't understand
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that. It's a hard idea to
wrap our minds around that showing a queer
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couple is controversial or an interracial couple
as controversial. We don't get it,
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but we're definitely not going to stop
doing it. We're going to take a
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quick break, but when we come
back, we'll hear about how okay Cupid
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flip the script and their mark in
campaigns, and how their commitment to taking
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a stand on important social issues has
helped the business grow. If you live
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in a major city, you probably
noticed okay cupid's marketing campaign that started back
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in January. They were big,
splashy, colorful billboards that said DTF,
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except the f didn't mean what you
thought it meant. Instead, it meant
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down to fall head over heels,
and it showed two women about to kiss,
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one in the other's arms and holding
a red rose. It meant down
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to fly the red eye, and
it showed an interracial couple with sleep masks
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decorated with each other's eyes. It
was extremely provocative and the idea behind that
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campaign was honestly just to make a
splash. We wanted to scream from the
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rooftops that Okay Cupid is here.
But as the years went on and they
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thought about new Mark getting campaigns,
Michael says, they wanted to tell people
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why Okay Cupid was here. So
when we were thinking about the every single
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Person campaign, and it's right in
the name, we wanted to let people
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know that we are an app for
them no matter how you identify, no
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matter what relationship you're looking for.
If you are a bookworm, we are
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for you. If you want to
be at a club at all hours of
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the night, we are for you. If you are looking for marriage right
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now, that's great. If you
are interested in an open relationship, that's
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awesome. Do you we want you
to do that. So it was really
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all about celebrating the people and the
kinds of couples that we're seeing form on
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our app. So for those who
are listening and may not know because they
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I don't know live in an Amish
community, what does DTF mean? So
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DTF stands for down to expletive go
to bed with someone, And we decided
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to completely flip the script on what
BPF stood for. So we had images
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and billboards all over the country.
That just gave a new meeting to the
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acronym. So some of those said
down to fall head over heels, or
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down to fight about the president,
or down to fire up the kiln,
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you know, whatever you want to
do. Um. So really that was
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all about reimagining what this overtly sexual
term really meant and celebrating it in a
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brand new way that resonated with people
all around the country. It falls right
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back into what you've talked about with
kind of pushing the envelope a little bit
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with everything. If you could kind
of elaborate a little bit on what it
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exactly means. This like this perspective
of reimagining what intimacy means. What do
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you mean by that? Yeah,
so when you think about DTF or when
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you thought about eight years and years
ago, it was said in a way
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that really shamed
people for being DTF. Um. It sort of put people
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down and look down upon people who
wanted to sleep around. And we see
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no problem with that if that is
what you want to do. We always
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say that we are the platform where
you come to whether you are looking for
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someone for Saturday night or Saturday nights
for the rest of your life. And
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we were tired of DTF being this
bad word, and we just wanted to
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flip it on its head and define
it in a way that just made sense
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to different people that made them proud
to b DTF. And that's sort of
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what that campaign was all about.
I love that and I feel like that
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is something that you and the company
very much UM achieved. So when you
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rolled out the more inclusive app features
that came earlier this year and the questions,
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could you tell us a little bit
about how these inclusive features UM effect
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not only inclusivity within your platform and
your community, but also in determining compatibility
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among users who are looking for people. If you haven't been an Okay Cupid,
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these questions power our algorithm and help
us connected with people that we feel
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you are most compatible with. So
when you're Honor app and you see another
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user, you will actually see a
match percentage on their profile. That is
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a number that we have calculated that
tells you how compatible you are with the
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other person based on three things.
What you said you're looking for in a
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partner, so their age, their
identities, where they're from, what they
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say they are looking for a a
partner, and how you both answered the
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questions in a similar way. So
we want to make sure that, because
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you're also busy, that when we're
showing you different people on the app,
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we're showing you people that you actually
have something in common with. You know,
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if you are someone who is a
workaholic, we want to match you
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with someone who is okay with that
and is not going to feel neglected by
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you. Um. If you're someone
who is really active and fitness is really
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important to you, we have questions
about that too, about living a healthy
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lifestyle, and if you're a runner, you want to be my to the
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other runners, like, That's what
our questions are all about, UM,
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and that's one of the biggest purposes
they serve. Another reason for our questions
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is besides being a deal breaker,
they're a dealmaker. They're also a conversation
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starter. So when people look at
the match percentage that they have with someone,
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they can actually see all the questions
that they answered in common UM,
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and also the questions that they answered
but might have had different answers too.
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So that will help you realize that
this person also loves horror movies. That's
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going to tell me that, Okay, Instead of using hey or hi,
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or are you up? I'm going
to message them and ask them what's your
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favorite horror movie? What are we
streaming this weekend? UM? It just
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gives me a little bit something to
go off of UM and that's really how
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we think about our questions on the
app. All of these things together create
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the unique product and company that is
Okay Cupid. And it makes me wonder
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about the relationship between moral capital and
business capital. Do they work together?
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And as Okay Cupid's focus on inclusivity
and diversity help the company grow absolutely,
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I think it really depends on who
you're targeting. If your target consumer is
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part of gen Z, if they
are millennials, these are the most progressive
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generations that we are seeing. They
want to purchase a product or service from
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a brand whose values really aligned with
theirs. So for us, we've seen
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it be a really huge benefit to
UM for our company to be a values
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driven dating app. We've seen that
these different features, especially ones for the
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LGBT you blessed community, these questions, these different features on the profile have
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really benefited our business. When we
look at the last year, we've seen
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a big increase in new users who
identify as bisexual, as non binary,
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as transgender coming to our app to
look for love, and it's because of
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these features, it's because of our
campaigns, it's because of everything that we're
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--> 00:29:30.799
doing here that people from across identities
really feel like this is a space where
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they can come to and be themselves. And if that's how they feel,
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our users are only going to continue
to grow. So yes, it's it's
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absolutely benefited okay cup it in the
United States, but really all over the
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world. So as as someone who
you work for the company, but you
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also have this perspective that you've been
successful with with dating apps. What is
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something that you from like a user
perspective, and then also as an employee
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like to see from okay Cupid in
the future. I would say that I
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would love for us to just continue
to customize and localize our app as best
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as possible. I think it's just
really cool that someone in San Francisco can
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have a great experience on okay Cupid, but it's very different from the experience
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of someone in Tel Aviv or Mumbai
or London. I think that's awesome that
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we are making sure that no matter
where you are in the world, no
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matter what's important to you that when
you come onto our app, it feels
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like this has been created for you
specifically, So I would just like us
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to continue down that path, which
we absolutely are. What about for for
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someone who is not currently on any
dating apps for whatever reasons? What is
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something about okay Cupid do you feel
like is the reason they should join and
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try? I I'm sorry to interrupted. Is this for me? LEVI?
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This is our producer Frank And yes
that question was for them. Oh my
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god, you're calling him out.
I'm here for it. I'm not on
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any dating apps, Michael at all. Right now, I don't know,
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like I've used them a bunch before, but like, yeah, how do
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you convince someone like me who's who
hasn't had huge success with dating apps in
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the past? Um as a queer
person, as someone who identifies as non
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binary, as someone who'ses key that
pronouns like yeah, I guess, like,
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why should should I try okay Cupid? See how it works well for
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you? Specifically? I would say
we're definitely the most inclusive dating app that
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you're ever
going to find. I
can say that with confidence. Um,
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But for anybody, I would encourage
you to get Okay keep it a try
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because you're able to tell the app
the perfect person you're looking for. When
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you download okay Cuban and create an
account, you don't just give your name
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and a photo and call it a
day. We really make you work for
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it, so you have to answer
at least fifteen questions before you get to
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get started. And what's nice about
that is if you see a question that
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doesn't resonate to you, or it's
not really relevant or even makes you uncomfortable,
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you can skip it. There's not
a single question on the app that's
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mandatory. It is mandatory to answer
fifteen of them. Um. And then
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there's all these different profile prompts that
you can fill out, so we definitely
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have more robust profiles than any other
dating app. And right now, what
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we hear from people sometimes when they
complain about dating is that you know,
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they're tired of swiping and going out
with someone for coffee or drinks or whatever
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the date is and finding out that
they're not compatible. But on our platform,
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through our questions, we really make
sure that before you even meet up
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with this person or have a phone
call with them or a FaceTime, you
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know a ton about them. You
know what their interests are what they're passionate
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about, what values um they have, and that's really important and I think
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it makes dating a lot easier.
And if you I'll just share this with
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you all. But if you want
to give Okay keep it a try,
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00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:36.400
please email subscriptions. I'd okay keep
it dot com and I am more than
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00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:40.279
happy to upgrade your account on me. Frank, make it now, literally
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going to make a profile. Now
You're gonna end up with a bunch of
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00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:45.359
people. I have nothing to lose. Yeah, I'm gonna go on like
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thirty days and thirty days and then
I'll send you I'll let you know how
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00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:59.559
it goes, Michael. So listeners, if you're on the fence about online
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00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:04.039
dating, if you're exhausted by the
endless swiping and profiles that tell you nothing,
388
00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:07.640
give Okay Cupid to try. If
Frank can do it, so can
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00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.880
you. And if you have something
to say about dating online as a queer
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00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.239
person, we'd love to hear from
you. Send us an email at Pride
391
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:22.360
at straw hut media dot com.
Pride is a production of straw Hut Media.
392
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.000
If you like the show, please
leave us a rating and review.
393
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:30.320
On Apple Podcasts Spotify or wherever you
listen to podcasts. Then follow us on
394
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:34.760
TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and snapchat at Pride and tune in
395
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:37.519
weekly for more episodes. Be sure
to share this episode with your friends and
396
00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:42.920
subscribe for more stories from amazing queer
people. If you'd like to connect with
397
00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.480
me, you can follow me everywhere
at Levi Chambers. Pride is produced by
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00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:51.639
Me, Maggie Bowls, Frank Driscoll, Ryan Tillottson, and Brandon Marlowe.
399
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:53.320
Edited by Maggie Bowls and Daniel Ferrara