บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Rufus Wainwright and Chris Walden on Classical DNA in the Pop World and Re-Imagining Kurt Weill

of that stuff. 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.120 But she also loved the Goldberg variations. 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.680 So she every morning she would play those. 00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:58.879 Um not all of them. 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:00.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:10.800 Not the some some of the she some of them she couldn't play, but uh, but a lot of them she she played, and um, and so I was kind of woken up every morning by by the Goldberg variations, which was was great. 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:16.400 So that was I think probably the first piece, which is interesting because you're supposed to be put to sleep by it to by them. 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:17.039 Right. 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:18.960 But I was but I was woken up by them. 00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:20.400 So beautiful. 00:03:20.560 --> 00:03:20.879 Wow. 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:23.759 I was gonna say a lot of the gold all of the Goldberg variations. 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:24.719 Yeah, no, not all. 00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:28.400 Um yeah, Chris, what about what about you? 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.120 Yeah, for me, similarly, very early on. 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:50.159 My mother um is a classical singer specializing in early Baroque and Renaissance choir music, and as far as I can remember, there was always the music in our household, musicians coming to our house for rehearsals with historic instruments, and me and my sister, we started playing classical music on recorders age four or five or so. 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:54.000 I mean, in that sense, the love it's a little bit ambivalent. 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:58.159 So the love and also hatred of classical music starts at the same time. 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.759 Well, I wasn't forced into that uh slot. 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:21.439 So right, but I mean it's clearly found its way into your lives so intimately, and that brings me to sort of the again, the heart of this conversation, which is what Wainwright does while which is a project that you're working on. 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:27.680 How did this come together and how did the two of you find each other? 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:36.560 Well, we have these c this couple um who are very close friends of ours, um, uh Dale and Don Franzen. 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:40.240 Well, Don is an attorney in the classical music world, actually. 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:45.439 He he he represents um the Cito Domingo and a bunch of other you know big artists. 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:55.439 But then Dale, well, who was an opera singer originally, she uh she then moved into more administrative uh stuff, and she actually and uh now she's a huge Broadway producer. 00:04:55.519 --> 00:05:08.319 She produced Hades Town, so she's so she's she's doing great, but she she had uh told my husband and I about Chris, put us together, and and uh and and yeah, so that that's how it came out from my end. 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:15.360 Don Franzen, who Rufus just mentioned, um, is on the board of directors of

my Pacific Jazz Orchestra. 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.240 And he's also was sitting on the board of the LA Opera. 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:23.839 So he's very, even though he's a lawyer, he's very knowledgeable about music and has ideas about programming. 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:31.600 In the first year when we started um doing programming for the Pacific Jazz Orchestra, he came to me and said, How about a project with Rufus Rainwright? 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:33.279 And I thought that sounds fantastic. 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:34.720 So and then he put us in touch. 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:39.600 You mentioned the Pacific Jazz Orchestra, and I want to talk a little bit about that as well. 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:50.000 So it's it's almost like a hybrid instrument, it's like a 17-piece big band plus a 20-piece string section, which really creates such a unique sound. 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:54.800 So Chris, how did that particular sound world? 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:59.120 I suppose since it's it's sort of so unique, shape the arrangements for the album. 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:11.199 And then Rufus, how do you adjust your vocal approach to singing against that very specific sound versus a chamber ensemble or a double piano? 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:23.120 Yeah, so uh as you said, it's a very unique instrumentation, at least in the in the US, with this instrumentation, this hybrid, so it's not a simful symphony orchestra, but it's more than just a jazz big band. 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:29.279 This hybrid instrumentation is the only one of this kind's this orchestra, the Pacific Jazz Orchestra is. 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:49.759 When this project with Rufus came along and we talked about Kurt Weill, I immediately knew this is gonna work perfectly with such an instrumentation because Weil, as you know, wrote for pit orchestras for musicals, his music was a lot for that for the for these works written for a pit orchestra, which is sort of like the Pacific Jazz Orchestra. 00:06:49.839 --> 00:07:00.480 We're a little bigger than a pit orchestra, but it has a lot of similarities to a musical pit orchestra, and so that's why that instantly felt great to adapt this music for the Pacific Jazz Orchestra. 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.600 Well, you I wanted to say you you have like more of a Ziegfield Foley's pit orchestra. 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:09.759 I mean, okay, now we're not pit orchestra's gotten really small. 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:25.680 Um I mean I'm referring to pit orchestras from decades ago, which yeah, but I think there was a time when there were huge pit orchestras, like in Ziegfield Foley, it's like in the golden era, Broadway or whatever, but uh but but no, but I don't think Kurt Weil they were much smaller orchestras anyways. 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:26.959 That was kind of the point, right? 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:28.480 They were sort of rough. 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:33.199 Well, look, I I've sung Gerval songs for many, many years. 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:36.560 I got into him when I was, you know, 13, 12, 13. 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:38.160 So I know the material really well. 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:46.639 I'd also had the the opportunity of doing a residency at the Carlisle Hotel, and I did all the songs, all the Kurt Val songs that are on the album. 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:49.680 Um so that is a sort of a transplant of that set list. 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:51.279 The songs were much in grand. 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.480 The other thing that's interesting is that there was so little rehearsal and kind of preparation. 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:11.199 I mean, we did, I got a chance to meet with Chris and look over the arrangements here and there, but I but I really let him do what he wanted to do, and it essentially, and I was working on another musical, on a musical called Opening Night in London, and I basically flew in. 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:18.560 We had one rehearsal and then we did the show and recorded it, and then I left the next day, I think, because I had another rehearsal in London. 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.879 So so there was a sort of how can I say this? 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:26.079 I think that was part of the approach in the sense that we it wasn't too thought out on my end. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:30.560 Um, and I just wanted to kind of hit the ground and see what happened live. 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:33.600 I mean, I've looked I've sung with orchestrals for a long time, so I know how to do that. 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:42.879 And I do think for Kurt Weil's music specifically, you want a kind of rock and roll quality to the performance and to the aesthetic because it is more you know street music. 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:47.919 So I think if it had been too rehearsed or too kind of slick, um it would have lost something. 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:54.480 And I think in a sense, it was all like a lucky accident that we actually did choose Kurt Weil as a theme for the show. 00:08:54.559 --> 00:09:02.720 When Lot Franzen originally approached me, he said, just a project with Rufus Rainwright, and we hadn't thought about what the material could be. 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:11.200 And I think maybe Rufus' songs, and I would reimagine them with orchestra, but then Rufus made actually the suggestion how about we doing Kurt Wilde? 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:23.840 Because I just did this thing at the Carlisle, which meant Rufus just had all these songs fresh in his memory, just learned, which meant I would just write the arrangements around around Rufus's performance, how he did it at the Carlisle. 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:26.399 So that way Rufus could come in for the rehearsal. 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:34.639 He was at least familiar with the structure, not the instrument, but the roadmap and the structures was set up, and the songs were ingrained into his recent memory anyway. 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:35.919 So and off we went. 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:36.559 Wow, yeah. 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:39.679 I

have I have many follow-up questions at everything. 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:43.519 I guess you know, I'll start with Rufus. 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:58.559 So your compositional work, it's like I said, moved through operatic, theatrical, and you obviously have your own incredible catalog, and you've also lived with Viol's music for a very long time. 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:04.000 When you inhabit Viles' songs, you know, you're an interpreter rather than a tutor. 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:08.080 What part kind of shows up first to that interpretation? 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:13.360 What happens when the kind of composer side of you and the interpreter side of you maybe disagree? 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:23.360 Well, look, I mean, composer-wise, I'm just envious because I love is both both this combination of lyricism and also grit. 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:29.679 You know, he's got this very soft and hard thing happening at the same time, which is very seamless, the way he does that. 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.120 And um, so I'm jealous, probably, as a composer. 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:48.399 Performance-wise, I mean, for me, the thing that always attracted me to his music was, of course, you know, the era, Weimar Republic, and and the whole that brief period where there was this kind of freedom and sexual liberation and you know, a big gay movement and trance movement. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.639 You know, there was just it was just this wild time of of freedom. 00:10:52.799 --> 00:11:01.840 Um, and so the music really is just pulsating with this, you know, modernism and and this and this exciting kind of I have to say very sexual energy as well. 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:03.759 That's what kind of drew me to it. 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:05.360 And it's also very theatrical. 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:10.000 And I'm, you know, I I'm known to cause a scene here and there. 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:15.039 I also want to ask about your arranging, Chris. 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.639 Several questions about that. 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:25.519 So arranging Vile means you really get into his harmonic and orchestral thinking like at a very granular level, right? 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:34.559 For you, what did that closeness to him reveal to you about if anything, about how vial maybe actually worked? 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.320 You know, something that maybe you couldn't have heard. 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:41.360 A general listener can't just hear from listening. 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:48.080 I was fortunate enough to have access to some of his manuscripts when I was working on it. 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:59.600 And what was interesting to see is that in his earlier work, especially Berlin and a little bit of Paris as well, but especially this time in Berlin, he was doing a lot of the orchestrations himself. 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:12.320 So which means he actually formed not only the melody and the chords that go with it, but a lot of the texture and the feel of the song was uh was done by Weill himself with his orchestration. 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:14.960 And for these songs, I stuck pretty closely to them. 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:26.159 In this later period, when he then went to New York and and did a lot of Broadway writing, he focused a little bit more on just writing the meat of the song and had other orchestrates orchestrators flesh it out. 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:34.639 And that's where I also took a little bit more my own liberties and did some more of my own arranging ideas to these songs. 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:36.080 We talked previously. 00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:39.919 I know you used IMSLP before, I know you told me we're a subscriber. 00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:40.559 Thank you. 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:51.279 So I'm just curious, like let's say a vial score, one of the ones you're working on, kind of existed in multiple public domain editions, different keys, different orchestrations. 00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:00.480 Would you ever maybe consider blending them or making your own performing addition, kind of to reflect how you hear the song? 00:13:00.559 --> 00:13:15.039 And maybe is there a song on this album where essentially that blended kind of various styles, various, you know, aspects of Kurt Weil's writing into something that is more adjacent to your voice? 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:16.399 Yeah, I I think so. 00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:23.919 I feel, for example, September song is where something that I kind of put a little bit more my thumbprint on it than another's. 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:24.159 Yeah. 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:25.279 What do you think, Rufus? 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:39.120 Well, I mean, what I like about this project and and with working with Chris, and I think it's a nice, it's a great kind of triumvirant in a lot of ways, is that there's Kirkweil and Germany and stuff like that. 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:42.480 And then there's New York, you know, Broadway kind of thing. 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.279 But then, of course, Chris works a lot in Hollywood. 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:46.639 And I live in Hollywood. 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:59.120 Obviously, he's done a lot of work with you know the Academy Awards, and there's this sort of a kind of glamour to his arrangements that is um incredibly very robust and and and big and confident. 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:11.919 And I think what that kind of mix is really nice with the Kurtville material because it sort of gives it this sort of cushion, which which the music is is very the angular nature of it, kind of is is beautifully framed. 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:19.440 So I think it gives a little of a Hollywood touch to it, which which is um not actually something one often thinks about with Kurtville. 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:28.399 I mean, I though I know he did spend some time in in LA, but it makes it a little more cinematic, which I think that that's sort of that gives it a this interesting color of this album. 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.279 Very much get that from

listening to the album. 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:42.720 It's almost like maybe like almost big band kind of glamour, just very theatrical style Kurt Weil wrote for the stage, but it takes it to the next level. 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:44.879 Yeah, Berthold Brecht would have hated it. 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:45.440 Yeah. 00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:49.600 I was going to say, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:52.799 That was my mind. 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.480 Bert Weil would have loved it, probably, but Berthold Brecht would have hated it. 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:57.759 That's so funny. 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:02.960 You know, the catalog spans these like two almost irreconcilable worlds. 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:10.559 Like on one hand, the the Brecht collaborations, it's like this dark politically charged, tabaret. 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:22.480 And then you have this American Broadway songwriter who wrote Stars, One Touch of Venus, and I think you navigate it that line so well. 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:31.840 And I'm just curious, when working on this project, was there ever a point where you were leaning more towards one or the other? 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:37.919 I mean, you kind of just applied a little bit that you were leaning more towards like less of the Brecht collaboration. 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:41.519 But how did you reconcile those worlds? 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:43.440 Chris, you should answer this, obviously. 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:54.559 But I do feel that the Brecht, that the German stuff, the Berlin stuff, we were, we were pretty, I was relieved because I did feel like we were very respectful of the German side. 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.879 Because I didn't want to jazz that up so much. 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:57.519 Exactly. 00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:03.360 But but then when we got to the other things, it became more more of a we went more out there. 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:10.559 The title of the album, I'm a Stranger Here Myself, from One Touch of Venus, of that musical. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:15.919 What drew you to that phrase in particular as the album title? 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:23.840 Well, that's a song that I I had heard it first when I heard the the Teresa Stratus Kurtville album years ago that she put out. 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.159 And I was just always fascinated by the song. 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:28.559 Well, first of all, it's a blast to sing. 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:34.879 There's a lot of you know, nooks and crannies that one discovers in their voice when singing that song. 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:41.120 And you have to be pretty activated and and and and confident and sort of seductive in your demeanor. 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.399 So it's just you have to slip, you have to you have to perform that song. 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:49.360 But I think in a funny way, like the title, I'm a Stranger Here Myself, is sort of the opposite of that. 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.799 It invokes more of a kind of loneliness and a sense of solitude. 00:16:52.960 --> 00:17:02.399 So it's this weird juxtaposition of both being, you know, really ready to go and also feeling completely alienated, which is kind of the way I am a lot of time. 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:08.160 Rufus, according to you, you know, when you do these interviews, you do you almost feel like a stalker. 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:10.319 You read all these like articles about all these people. 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.599 You said you wore out the grooves of Teresa Stratus's while album in your early 20s. 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:24.079 That's like a very specific kind of devotion, you know, returning to the same recordings until they're physically exhausted. 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.440 I've done that myself. 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:27.279 What were you listening for? 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.799 Like, what did you hear there that you couldn't stop the book? 00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:34.559 I really do feel like there was something about that era too. 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:43.119 I discovered Kerval, it was, you know, probably 80, well, 91, 90, so the beginning of the 90s. 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.400 And there was a kind of dark. 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:56.000 I grew up in Montreal, up in Canada, and there was a kind of um decrepit bohemian style, you know, that that I was growing up in. 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.319 And the world was a little bit more broken down. 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:03.359 I mean, it's still broken down, but it didn't, I felt like it related a lot to that, to that aesthetic. 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:06.160 So I just forgot the question. 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.319 I was I just was thinking about the 90s and got lost. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:12.160 No, I gleefully. 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.400 I was gonna say really, but unfortunately I I can't relate. 00:18:16.720 --> 00:18:26.240 First of all, I love that description of because that was another one of my questions, is what captured you so early on into Vile, but it was talking about the Stratus's album. 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.480 What kept you coming back to that? 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.440 Well, I mean, it was Stratus and it was also Laudelenia. 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:34.799 It was it was, you know, any kind of diva of sorts. 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:47.920 And uh I don't know, I just would like listen to those records and get naked and put on a string of pearls and stare at myself in the mirror, you know, stuff like that you do when you're 19. 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:52.079 And probably on drugs. 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:54.240 There was a lot of drugs in an interesting way. 00:18:54.319 --> 00:19:02.000 I I think you have to bring drugs into it in the sense that the decadence of the period that that was like the early 90s was like that. 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:11.680 There was a lot of heroin, there was a lot of drinking, and and sort of so that music very much it spoke to also that that that decadence, which I experienced a lot as a

very young person. 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:17.519 You talk about that decadence and that like specific era, you know, capturing a a time. 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.200 The musical landscape today is obviously very different. 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:26.240 It's developed in a way that you know we haven't predicted. 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:31.119 How do you feel like your work on this project? 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:35.839 How does it fit into kind of the current musical landscape? 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:41.440 And have you thought of the current musical landscape when working on this project? 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:46.720 Or is it more so kind of staying true to this decadence that you're talking about? 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.160 Or do you think that it can be applied to today? 00:19:50.880 --> 00:20:00.880 To the current musical landscape, I never worry about that because I don't really program for the Pacific Jazz Orchestra or concerts to follow a certain trend or anything. 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:10.240 I just pick concerts that interest me as an artist that that I find fascinating and I would like to sink my teeth into and working on it. 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.920 And with that kind of hoping other people would feel the same way. 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.680 And in this case, enough people did because we had a sold-out show. 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:27.920 And so that's how I kind of I mean I think you can't you you also of course have to tie in the similarities from of that era, of the era we're in now. 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:34.880 Sorry, with with you know Weimar Germany, you know, politically, we're it's a similar situation. 00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:42.880 Uh we are we are on the precipice of of possibly being in a full-fledged fascist world as they were back then. 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:59.920 And uh and this so I do I do actually personally believe I I'm a little more airy-fairy about it, but these songs, they're definitely coming back to the fore because they they're a warning, and then there's a certain pain in them and a certain sense of dread that is, you know, that we can certainly relate to today. 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:06.880 But I feel like the music that's something that music just does, like it's not something you execute, you know, or you it just sort of happens. 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:15.680 And so I feel like they they they just chose to come back for a very good reason because we're in a similar spot as we were back in the 30s. 00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:20.400 Yeah, history repeats itself as a result, it always comes back. 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:26.240 Mark Twain famously said, uh, history never repeats itself, but it does rhyme. 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:35.200 So we talk about there's a lot of emotional complexity and we talk about warnings in the songs. 00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:41.440 On paper, Biles melodies are almost deceptively simple, in my opinion. 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:49.599 You know, as someone, both of you who are so uh kind of intimately tied to the music, read the score so deeply. 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:58.240 What do you see in a Bile melody that you think maybe a less trained musician or singer might might miss? 00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:59.519 I think the simplicity. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:08.880 Is striking, but what m many people that don't have that much knowledge about writing music is that simple melodies are really hard to write. 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:15.119 That's where part of the genius of Kurtwile lies is finding a great simple melody. 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:25.759 They're simple, but they're still quirky at times and take unexpected turns without being overly complicated or too complex. 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.079 That's that's that to me is wild. 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.240 A simple but quirky, quirky melody. 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.519 And I think also you have to sing every note correctly. 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.079 Even though they might not be simple, you can't really futz with it too much, which is actually interesting. 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.400 You can't really riff on a Kurt Vial song. 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:45.920 But yes, it is simple, but you have to hit every note exactly as written I find when you sing them. 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:58.720 Telling Mozart, you know, I had a piano teacher who said, you know, Mozart melodies are so simple, but if you get a note wrong, it's like you're wearing a white dress and someone spills like tackling sauce all over it. 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.200 I think it's a no, it's a bit like that. 00:23:01.359 --> 00:23:01.519 Yeah. 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:03.680 Maybe not, maybe not quite like that. 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:07.119 Well, maybe just a T. 00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:19.039 For while became the while that the world knows, you know, three penny opera, cabaret, everything that is, you know, the world and your album. 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:27.839 He wrote a violin concerto, he wrote a string quartet, a lot of serious, you know, classical concert music in the tradition of Busoni, Federico Busoni, who he's studied. 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:34.319 Some of us, funnily enough, only knew him as a classical composer, believe it or not. 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:44.319 So do either of you hear traces of that earlier classical Weill in the songs on this album and maybe the voice leading, the way he builds ten. 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.119 Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb here. 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:50.640 I don't think Weil was a great classical composer. 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:53.920 I I'm willing to say that. 00:23:54.079 --> 00:23:56.400 I mean, I I've heard certain things and they're interesting. 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:02.160 I only know this also because I had uh a few classical pieces that were in the sim in the same evening. 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:10.640 I think I did something where they had played some of my overtures and and they had also like I think they were playing Kurt Weil's first

symphony or something. 00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:13.839 And it wasn't that great to me. 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:16.799 Compared to his other things, you know, compared to his songs. 00:24:17.039 --> 00:24:18.559 Personally, I think he had all the training. 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:33.200 I think he probably had all the appreciation and and he had all the tools, but he was at heart, he was like a songwriter and a and a formidable song songwriter, a theatrical songwriter, which is different from just like you know, someone who just writes songs. 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:39.279 I'm not trying to deb debase him, but but a great classical composer, I don't think was really his forte. 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:41.680 Speak your truth. 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:43.839 Speak your truth. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:48.720 It's not that it was bad, it just doesn't particularly, you know, move me very much. 00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:50.559 A lot of stuff that work personally. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:51.599 Beauty of art. 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:54.240 Do you have uh anything to add to that? 00:24:54.559 --> 00:25:00.480 I have to admit, and I have to confess that I do know that he did write some classical music. 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:03.519 I've hardly listened to any of it, I have to admit. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.440 So I I'm not that familiar with it. 00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:06.640 Yeah, it's okay. 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.079 It's not it's not it's not Mac the knife, you know. 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:13.519 I agree with that. 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:16.799 We're not hearing for Lyle's violin concerto everything. 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:26.160 So it's hard for me to tell if there are traces of his classic composition style in his songwriting or Broadway, or even in this orchestration work for his earlier stuff? 00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:27.039 I don't really know. 00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:28.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:30.880 Well, I have a question for you, Chris. 00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:36.480 Lyle's original orchestrations are themselves remarkable. 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:37.920 Yeah, amazing. 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:40.160 Just unbelievable. 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:42.480 He knew exactly what he was doing as an orchestra. 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:52.079 So when you write new arrangements of his songs, how much of his original orchestration do you kind of keep in conversation with? 00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:57.599 And how much do you feel licensed to depart a little from it? 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:03.680 It depends on the song and in what period he's written the songs, as I mentioned earlier. 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:13.759 In his Berlin era, where he did a lot of the his own orchestrations, that's where I stayed closer and true to his original orchestration, just fleshed it out a bit. 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:31.519 And some of the songs from his later period, I took more artistic license and and did my own thing with my own orchestration and my own ideas for counterpoints and maybe different intro that I would come up by myself to a song, but more to his later songs. 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:34.799 So for the early ones, I stayed closer to his orchestrations. 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:49.359 When you sit down to arrange for a singer-songwriter like Rufus, I mean you've arranged you know, Paul McCartney to Aretha Franklin, CSO, uh the Academy Awards, you've arranged for so many. 00:26:49.519 --> 00:27:00.640 So when you arrange for someone as unique and amazing as Rufus, you have a very defined musical voice and you also have a deep classical foundation. 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:08.559 Chris, how does your process change, if at all, compared to arranging for other kinds of vocalists or ensembles? 00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:16.000 Well, the most important thing for me is when I'm writing an arrangement for a singer, is the vocal timbre of each singer. 00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:25.200 Because that kind of defines what textures I'm gonna use in the orchestra to complement that or embed that or play against it, or whatever I want to do with these textures. 00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:32.000 With Rufus, I has such a distinct voice and I knew how to how to write for it. 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:45.839 I mean it's always like individual to I think one thing I I imagine with my voice too is that and only think about this a little bit, because I I of course I'm mostly in the pop world, so I listen to a lot of other musicians and other singers. 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:50.400 I do feel like there's a thing where it's not that they're bad singers at all, actually. 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:58.559 Most of them are very good singers, but there's a kind of style of singing where the orchestra how can I say this? 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:06.079 Where the where the voice, and I'm not giving gonna give any examples, but but where the voice is doing one thing and then the orchestra can do something else. 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:12.880 I think my style of singing demands that the orchestra and I kind of play ball a little bit. 00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:13.279 Yeah. 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:25.920 Um, you know, I think I've always had that kind of like I'm not afraid to have a lot of different, you know, the dynamics, and and and I and I like big intervals and and and I like to belt and then I like to go very, very quietly. 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:28.799 And that is very unusual in the pop world. 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:34.240 You know, in the pop world, it's just it's more like just you're singing on a kind of straight line, and I don't sing that way. 00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:36.160 Uh for better or for worse. 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:45.839 I think with orchestrators, I'm I'm hoping and I'm assuming that they kind of feel like they can Yeah, we can kind of have a little bit more of a of a of an intertwining thing. 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:46.400 Yeah. 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:56.480 But I've learned your style of singing quite quickly, I think, and and knew how not to step on the

singer and kind of play against each other and and with the with a voice. 00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:00.799 I mean, for example, Rufus, you're not you're not a singer that is backphrasing a lot. 00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:02.160 No, no, no, no. 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.400 So your timing is really good, which makes it easy for me as well. 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:08.240 I love that. 00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:15.279 You talk about the dynamic range in your in your voice and how you play ball with the orchestra. 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:16.960 Where does that where does that come from? 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:19.119 Well, that's from that's from my love of opera. 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:23.279 Around the time same time that I discovered Kerval, I I got into opera. 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.039 And I've been a massive opera fanatic, as I still am. 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:31.599 And so, you know, for me, going to the opera is like going to a baseball game, you know. 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.880 They're gonna hit the note, are they gonna make me cry here, you know? 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:42.000 So I enjoy that sort of athletic uh interchange between a singer and orchestra, and so that's that's from the opera. 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:58.799 And that also plays well when with the orchestra, as for me as the conductor as well, since I did also conduct the concert and the album, which is great for Rufus to conduct because I can follow him, I know where he's going at times when I have to react to him. 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:02.720 So that way, Rufus is really easy to conduct for, at least for me. 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:23.680 Yeah, and I also think that a lot of times when you sing with an orchestra, you really have to dissect the arrangement in your head um while you're listening to it in the sense like really try to sing with the second oboes, you know, like it's like a weird kind of you can't look at it as a whole, you have to look at it as like a as a as a multi-tiered thing, which I could which I do because I listen to so much opera. 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:29.200 So you are part of the orchestra, that's kind of like the playing a concerto for any instrument. 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:33.680 Chris, you mentioned you you studied conducting and you are a conductor. 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:49.039 Is there for you similarity when conducting Rufus in this project to let's say conducting, you know, a violin concerto, uh a cello concerto, piano concerto, any concerto for another instrument? 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:59.039 And maybe Rufus and Chris, if your voice could be akin to another instrument specifically for this album, what what would it be? 00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:05.440 For me, there's not a big difference in conducting a con instrumental concerto with a soloist or a singer. 00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:15.519 As long as the instrumental soloist has is skillful, then he has the same skills that a good vocal performer has as well, that is easy to follow. 00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.480 And where and we speak the same language and react to each other. 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.119 That's the same with a vocal soloist as well as an instrumental soloist for a concerto. 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:28.640 And if it's doesn't work out that well, then it's bad in either scenario. 00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:38.000 You know, I wanted to ask a couple more questions about the lineage that Bile has had over the years with various interpreters. 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:46.000 You know, you mentioned Teresa Stradas, you also have Marianne Faithful, you have Ute Lemper, you have Lot Elena. 00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:55.519 How do you decide which interpretive lineage to honor and maybe what to deliberately depart from? 00:31:55.839 --> 00:32:09.359 It's funny you mentioned that because I mean, in terms I think in terms of the traditional, you know, singing his material, I do try to differentiate from that or create my own version and really encompass the songs alone. 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:11.920 And and I'll be influenced by people. 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:19.519 What's great actually is that you know, having discovered Laudeland first, it gave me a lot of room because she wasn't like the greatest singer in the world. 00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:28.480 Amazed, interesting, fascinating singer, incredible voice, but not a like she wasn't like an acrobatic Judy Garland type singer. 00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:33.039 So so it kind of gave so it gave me a lot of leeway to kind of sing them how I wanted to sing them. 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:34.640 So I tried to really make them myself. 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:41.359 That being said, Bobby Darren version of Mac the Knife, I followed that note for note. 00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:44.960 I really owe him, I'm imitating Bobby Darren. 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:46.960 That's not necessarily me singing that. 00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:57.279 I mean, I'm I I I could do that, but I think his version of Mac the Knife is so iconic and so kind of in a lot of ways insurmountable, uh, at least in the pop world. 00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.759 And there's a lot of people who had hits with that song. 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:08.319 Uh, but his one is so it's like the Elvis version, you know, that that that you kind of I think you have to kind of follow him when it gets into that jazzy feel. 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:10.160 You have anything to add to that? 00:33:10.400 --> 00:33:16.160 Well, I think I think to Rufus' credit, I think he still was managed to put his own stamp on it. 00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:16.480 Yeah. 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:24.319 Oh especially since we Rufus and I made the decision to kind of blend various styles with Mac the knife. 00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:27.519 We're starting in out more true to the three pack version. 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:36.160 Rufus actually sings in German in the first verse, and then we kind of transition slowly into the jazz rap pack version with Darren feel to it. 00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:40.240 And but I

think with that, Rufus kind of put his own stamp on it. 00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.559 Yeah, but I went through Bobby Darren to do it. 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:42.799 Yes. 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:44.000 Yeah, I went through him. 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:59.920 If a listener experiencing this project for the first time and you wanted to encapsulate it in one word for them, or interpretive stamp the way you approached it, what is that word that kind of encapsulates this project for you? 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.039 I would say gloomy. 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:09.039 Gloomy, gloomy fun, gloomy fun. 00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:10.400 Gloomy fun. 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:11.519 Yeah. 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:14.400 That's just like one word, gloomy fun. 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:15.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.599 It's like a German, it's a German word, gloomy fun. 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:18.079 Yeah. 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:21.599 What would you say? 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:26.400 I have one word that describes the feeling. 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:29.039 Or you can make a new word. 00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:29.599 Yeah. 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:30.559 Gloomy fun. 00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:31.840 Gloomy fun. 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:35.760 Well, I mean, I would think swagger is the wrong word for it. 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:36.079 Right. 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:37.360 It's not really well. 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:39.119 Swagger, I'll go with swagger. 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:40.400 The corky swagger. 00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:40.960 Yeah, yeah. 00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:41.440 Quirky. 00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:43.679 Quirky swagger. 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.440 That sounds like some person. 00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:48.880 Hi, this is Quirky Swagger here. 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:51.519 Corky Swagger sings. 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:52.320 Kurt Weil. 00:34:54.239 --> 00:34:55.519 That'll be my new pendant. 00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:58.960 He's my next guest, actually. 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:01.119 Kurt Weil were alive today. 00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:06.400 What genre do you would think he would be working in? 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:07.679 You think first. 00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:09.039 What do you think, Chris? 00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.679 I think he would still be writing probably opera. 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:15.599 I think he would write opera. 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:20.239 I think he would be writing songs for me. 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:22.800 Of course. 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.000 He'd be like, this guy, Rufus, is amazing. 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:28.639 I gotta write some more songs. 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:30.159 Obviously. 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:31.440 No, I don't know. 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:31.760 I don't know. 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:35.039 Maybe be I don't think he'd be a DJ or anything, but maybe. 00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:35.519 No. 00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:42.079 But I think I I said opera because opera has opened up to a lot of new voices recently. 00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.480 And

contemporary opera, that is. 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:47.760 And I think he would have found a spot there. 00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:51.519 More than I think more than contemporary Broadway. 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.119 Oh yeah, definitely. 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:54.639 Last question. 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:56.639 And your answer can't be vile. 00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:02.400 If you could have dinner with any composer, living or dead, who would it be? 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:03.599 And you can't say vile. 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:10.960 Um for me, I mean, I I'm a I'm a big opera person, and I and I spend so much time thinking about him. 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:17.760 And I seem to be the only one who adore him as much as I do, but I I really like Geo Separity. 00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:21.760 And I want to see if he's as mean as he seems to be. 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:32.000 Verdi famously said, Verdi famously said um he loves he likes to hang out with business people because uh he likes to talk about the art and music. 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.519 He doesn't like to hang out with musicians because all they talk about is money. 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:36.719 Yeah, yeah. 00:36:38.159 --> 00:36:41.519 For one thing, he was also very handsome, he was very good looking. 00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:47.039 And uh and he also did this thing where I mean, I think they were celebrating him in his hometown. 00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:54.719 They built an opera house for him and they celebrated, and they they had the big opening night, and he was in the town, and instead of going to that, he went to a spa. 00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.880 He's just had a lot of balls. 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.840 I I think I would like to have dinner with you, Hansebastien Bach. 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:06.639 Not a lot alone about his personality and what he was like, and yes, he was married two times. 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:10.960 He had like a gazillion children, and but what was it? 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:11.679 What was he like? 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:20.639 He seemed like he could be a little bit of a little bit of a hard ass, but I think he did like stab someone on a bridge for bothering him. 00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:27.199 Yeah, but yeah, you I mean I I love both of those answers. 00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:28.880 I'd have the better food though. 00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:29.440 That's true. 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:31.599 Probably you wouldn't have the better food answer. 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:32.320 I don't know. 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:35.519 Yeah, 1600s, life east Germany. 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:36.400 Yeah, yeah. 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.000 Well, thank you so much, both of you. 00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:41.199 This was so much fun. 00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:42.559 Oh, great, thank you. 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:43.519 Yeah, that was. 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:44.400 Thanks for having us. 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:52.320 I learned so much, our audiences are gonna learn so much, and we're all gonna delve into your curb vibe. 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:54.239 Great, thank you so much. 00:37:56.719 --> 00:38:02.079 IMSLP is one of the most vital and valuable resources for musicians everywhere. 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:14.960 It is the largest public domain music library in the world with over 840,000 scores, 95,000 recordings, thousands of manuscripts, rare arrangements, and more. 00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:16.960 And it doesn't stop at scores. 00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:21.519 Check out our Instagram and YouTube to see what else we're sharing with our amazing community. 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:27.519 If you'd like to support the project and help keep it free for everyone, consider becoming a subscriber. 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:30.239 Thanks for listening and see you next time.