บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Postmodern Realities Podcast Episode 515: Suffering and Apostasy in Shusaku Endo’s ‘Silence’

my life was initially my 74 00:04:48.819 --> 00:04:50.939 daughter read it last year. She's a senior in high 75 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:53.100 school now. She was a junior last year. And I 76 00:04:53.100 --> 00:04:55.550 was driving she and two of her friends, and they 77 00:04:55.579 --> 00:04:59.290 were talking about the book. And the depth of conversation 78 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:02.629 that it generated from the three of them, these 17-year-old 79 00:05:02.670 --> 00:05:06.670 young women, about very important issues in our relationship with 80 00:05:06.689 --> 00:05:09.449 God impressed me. And then over the next year, I 81 00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:11.829 had pastors come up and talk to me. I had 82 00:05:11.910 --> 00:05:13.730 friends who work in ministry that would come up and 83 00:05:13.750 --> 00:05:16.750 talk to me about the book. And finally, a pastor 84 00:05:16.810 --> 00:05:19.129 friend just a couple of weeks ago had posted and 85 00:05:19.189 --> 00:05:23.069 said he had just read it and really wanted someone 86 00:05:23.110 --> 00:05:24.980 to talk to, or this was a few weeks ago. 87 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:26.579 And so I picked up the book and read it, 88 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.980 and I was struck with how many of the themes, 89 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:32.839 you just mentioned, I think it was such a great point. 90 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:36.720 The movie is generated from a different place of art 91 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:39.850 than the book is. So they're almost always different things, right? 92 00:05:39.870 --> 00:05:42.949 And when you talk about Martin Scorsese's movie about the 93 00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:47.040 book Silence, He had a very specific reason that he 94 00:05:47.079 --> 00:05:49.800 wanted to make that movie, and it had to do 95 00:05:49.819 --> 00:05:52.670 with the treatment of Judas. He thinks that silence has 96 00:05:52.750 --> 00:05:56.449 a treatment of the motivations of Judas or understanding the 97 00:05:56.509 --> 00:05:59.509 mindset of Judas and God's relationship with Judas. And that 98 00:05:59.529 --> 00:06:02.269 was very central to why Scorsese wanted to make it. 99 00:06:02.810 --> 00:06:06.610 But Indo himself had his own reasons for writing it. 100 00:06:06.790 --> 00:06:10.269 He didn't grow up in 17th century feudal Japan. He 101 00:06:10.310 --> 00:06:12.569 wasn't a part of that. You're talking about someone who 102 00:06:12.589 --> 00:06:16.529 was writing in the 20th century. But he also struggled 103 00:06:16.569 --> 00:06:19.319 with his faith. And he talked about his faith as 104 00:06:19.420 --> 00:06:23.639 a Catholic Japanese man. He called his faith an ill-fitting suit. 105 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:27.480 And so there was just aspects that he wrote about 106 00:06:27.579 --> 00:06:32.370 in this where he used this story of persecution and 107 00:06:32.430 --> 00:06:37.209 apostasy and faithful martyrs and a father, Father Rodriguez, the 108 00:06:37.290 --> 00:06:40.730 central protagonist of the story, who was struggling with his 109 00:06:40.829 --> 00:06:43.759 faith in the face of the silence of God. And 110 00:06:43.860 --> 00:06:46.839 I heard the same things, the same themes that they 111 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:50.689 were talking about resonating from the conversations I've had with 112 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:53.350 dozens of people who work in ministry over the past 113 00:06:53.389 --> 00:06:55.930 couple of years as I asked them questions about their 114 00:06:56.050 --> 00:06:58.750 own struggles with their faith, their own struggles with the 115 00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:01.550 silence of God, their own struggles with this concept of 116 00:07:01.569 --> 00:07:04.540 the dark night of the soul. It was the same 117 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.579 thing happening over and over again, the same words, and 118 00:07:07.620 --> 00:07:11.009 particularly three aspects of this story where there was a, 119 00:07:11.490 --> 00:07:15.500 There are charges of unfairness to God. There is the 120 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.920 problem of evil that is directly brought into it. He 121 00:07:19.019 --> 00:07:23.579 is challenged with the problem of evil as a defeater 122 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:25.850 for the idea of theism and the existence of God. 123 00:07:26.290 --> 00:07:29.949 There's disappointment with God. There are so many things that 124 00:07:30.069 --> 00:07:32.350 resonate with people who are struggling with faith that I 125 00:07:32.370 --> 00:07:34.769 have talked to over the last couple of years that 126 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.980 I really wanted to explore, particularly those three aspects of it. 127 00:07:38.689 --> 00:07:41.389 because it's such a great backdrop for understanding it. And 128 00:07:41.410 --> 00:07:44.250 I think because it removes it from our modern day, 129 00:07:45.050 --> 00:07:48.240 it draws so much empathy from people. Even sometimes I 130 00:07:48.250 --> 00:07:51.069 think misplaced empathy for some of the characters in the 131 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:54.439 story who are struggling to answer the question, what would 132 00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:58.220 I do if I were in similar circumstances without recognizing 133 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:00.240 that many of the people around us are in similar 134 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:02.980 circumstances right now in their struggles with God. 135 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:08.759 So one thing you did mention is and I mentioned earlier, 136 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:13.899 is this is by a Japanese author who is a 137 00:08:14.019 --> 00:08:19.189 Roman Catholic. And his worldview does figure prominently in his work. 138 00:08:19.250 --> 00:08:22.930 He's done other work that I've read. I haven't actually 139 00:08:22.990 --> 00:08:25.350 read Silence, just watched the film, but I did read 140 00:08:25.370 --> 00:08:28.629 other novels that I am not a fan of. 141 00:08:29.069 --> 00:08:31.720 So that in full disclosure, I was not a fan 142 00:08:31.759

--> 00:08:32.120 of that. 143 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.429 I mean, I think at the end, his view of 144 00:08:35.570 --> 00:08:38.809 incarnational ministry. I just had found it to be aberrant, 145 00:08:38.889 --> 00:08:42.870 but that's another story for a different book. But one 146 00:08:42.909 --> 00:08:46.149 of the things that you were talking about, the timeframe 147 00:08:46.710 --> 00:08:49.370 that he places it in, and that is really interesting 148 00:08:49.409 --> 00:08:52.049 because I'd like to ask you about his life and 149 00:08:52.110 --> 00:08:55.960 how the themes from his work, like silence, you know, 150 00:08:56.700 --> 00:08:59.279 really impact the world that he lives in, that he 151 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:00.200 comes from in Japan. 152 00:09:00.340 --> 00:09:03.240 And one thing I would say about Japan. 153 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:06.019 As the Japanese American third generation who's been to Japan 154 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:10.240 a couple of times recently last year is that it 155 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:14.960 is for a first world country, extremely unreached. It is 156 00:09:15.019 --> 00:09:18.679 more unreached than areas in Asia that have a lot 157 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:24.440 of Islam there. And it's like almost a hundred percent unreached. 158 00:09:24.539 --> 00:09:31.259 It's like over 98% unreached. And that is after Christian Witnesses, 159 00:09:32.490 --> 00:09:35.850 taking place back in the setting of this story. And 160 00:09:35.870 --> 00:09:39.500 then after that time, when the Roman Catholic Jesuit priests 161 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:41.639 had gone to Japan, Christianity. 162 00:09:41.340 --> 00:09:42.899 Was banned for a couple hundred years. 163 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:47.720 And so then now, but even with that, so it's 164 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.730 not even, when you think about evangelical Christians in Japan today, 165 00:09:51.779 --> 00:09:54.690 I was recently looking on the Joshua Project, it's less 166 00:09:54.730 --> 00:09:58.370 than 1%. So in this kind of thing, it was 167 00:09:58.450 --> 00:09:59.970 very animistic and secularized. 168 00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:00.649 Back then. 169 00:10:00.809 --> 00:10:03.629 It is still very animistic and secular. So I think 170 00:10:03.649 --> 00:10:06.669 this book and its themes would resonate, especially when you 171 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:11.980 think of evangelism, if anyone has Japanese friends in Japan today. Yeah. 172 00:10:12.019 --> 00:10:15.840 And he, Shisaku Endo, he converted to Catholicism, which was 173 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:19.279 his mother's faith when he was 11 years old. And 174 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:22.779 he lived, as you just said, in a very animistic, 175 00:10:22.940 --> 00:10:28.600 secular culture where he was Japanese, but not believing what 176 00:10:28.659 --> 00:10:31.580 the majority of Japanese believe. And he had this sense 177 00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:34.659 of being an outsider that was never really resolved

when 178 00:10:34.679 --> 00:10:36.750 you read his books or even when you read his 179 00:10:36.809 --> 00:10:39.169 own writings about his life, about how when he went 180 00:10:39.230 --> 00:10:41.830 to Europe to study, he felt like, OK, now I'm 181 00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:46.230 moving into a Christian world. So going into a Catholic environment, 182 00:10:46.309 --> 00:10:49.370 I'm likely to feel at home now again. But there 183 00:10:49.399 --> 00:10:52.789 he felt Japanese, felt very Japanese in a European world. 184 00:10:53.169 --> 00:10:56.389 And so he has this sense of being, as I said, 185 00:10:56.610 --> 00:10:58.990 his beliefs are what he called an ill-fitting suit. And 186 00:10:59.009 --> 00:11:01.289 it was something he struggled with throughout his work. The 187 00:11:01.350 --> 00:11:05.460 themes in Silence are not only in Silence when you 188 00:11:05.509 --> 00:11:09.379 read his books. They repeat themselves throughout his work. The 189 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:13.100 idea of wrestling with how to understand God, how to 190 00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:16.480 understand God's work in Japan, how the Japanese mind works. 191 00:11:17.090 --> 00:11:21.769 understands God versus how the Westerners understand him. It is 192 00:11:21.809 --> 00:11:24.529 a repeating theme throughout all of his work. So he, 193 00:11:24.649 --> 00:11:28.169 just like we talked about, Martin Scorsese picked silence because 194 00:11:28.210 --> 00:11:31.139 he had things he wanted to say in his film. 195 00:11:31.700 --> 00:11:35.080 Endo picked 17th century Japan, where he's talking about the 196 00:11:35.179 --> 00:11:38.279 Jesuit priests have moved in. And towards the end of 197 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:41.759 the 16th and early 17th century, they've made inroads into Japan. 198 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:46.600 And they've seen estimates of maybe 300,000 people converted. and 199 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:50.399 they face this terrible persecution early on, the initial wave 200 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:55.259 of the persecution does see, as they kill priests and 201 00:11:55.320 --> 00:12:00.590 priests stay faithful, it does see those martyrdoms feeding on 202 00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:04.029 early Christianity, and then they change tactics. The book's silence 203 00:12:04.129 --> 00:12:10.480 begins and ends with apostasy. It begins with, The report 204 00:12:10.580 --> 00:12:15.370 that Father Ferreira, the hero of this Jesuit movement who 205 00:12:15.409 --> 00:12:18.870 has been in country for 20 years and has seen 206 00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:22.909 this massive growth, has seen people tortured and martyred, he 207 00:12:22.950 --> 00:12:26.450 has apostatized to faith. And so the story of silence 208 00:12:27.110 --> 00:12:30.500 is centered around three, at the beginning, three of his 209 00:12:30.580 --> 00:12:37.700 former students, his former protégés, sneaking into Japan, without permission 210 00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:42.480 from their priesthood, to be able to find Ferreira and 211 00:12:42.500 --> 00:12:46.139 to prove that he's faithful, to prove that the reports 212 00:12:46.179 --> 00:12:50.669 of his apostasy are lies, because they so deeply admired him, 213 00:12:50.710 --> 00:12:54.190 and he was such a massive figure. But the story, 214 00:12:54.289 --> 00:12:56.370 as it unfolds, and it's not a very long book, 215 00:12:56.509 --> 00:13:01.090 is about the brutality. You get to see the brutality 216 00:13:01.230 --> 00:13:03.899 of the life of the villagers that they had to 217 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:08.159 endure as Christians. during this period, the way that the 218 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:13.909 persecution worked against and the way that they ultimately challenged it. 219 00:13:13.970 --> 00:13:15.990 And I think that what I say, what's interesting to 220 00:13:16.009 --> 00:13:18.570 me is it's not just a story of apostasy of 221 00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:21.590 Ferreira or Rodriguez, who is the central figure. Now, Ferreira 222 00:13:21.629 --> 00:13:26.080 was based on an actual historical figure. Rodriguez is based 223 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.879 actually on an Italian priest who was over there who 224 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.120 did apostatize. They turned him into a Portuguese priest for 225 00:13:32.139 --> 00:13:36.200 the purpose of the story. And the purpose of telling 226 00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:38.799 their story through Rodriguez, it was actually, I think, Chiado 227 00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:41.259 was his name, but he was an Italian priest who 228 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:46.539 did reportedly apostatize too. And it's a fascinating story because, 229 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:48.539 as I mentioned, people can't help but talk about it. 230 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:51.899 I've read Jesuit priests that still to this day defend 231 00:13:51.940 --> 00:13:54.250 the apostasy of the priest and say it wasn't real. 232 00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:56.669 They did what they had to do. I've talked to people, 233 00:13:56.789 --> 00:14:00.570 Baptist pastors who tell me, oh, I have tremendous empathy 234 00:14:00.629 --> 00:14:02.470 for them, and I don't think that they can be 235 00:14:02.529 --> 00:14:05.139 blamed for what they did. Actually, in the article from 236 00:14:05.139 --> 00:14:07.240 10 years ago that you guys wrote about the movie 237 00:14:07.259 --> 00:14:09.980 that was published, he has a lot of sympathy for 238 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:13.820 a character, Kichijiro, who is, to me, I found that 239 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:17.340 fascinating reading his review of the movie, because in the book, 240 00:14:17.379 --> 00:14:20.840 Kichijiro is easily one of the most despicable characters in 241 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.840 the story. There is no redeeming. I haven't seen the movie, 242 00:14:24.860 --> 00:14:26.840 so I can't comment on what he was commenting on, 243 00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:31.159 but in the book, he is so obviously and painfully 244 00:14:31.399 -->

00:14:37.370 obviously a vile human being who seeks redemption constantly, but 245 00:14:37.409 --> 00:14:41.230 has never changed through repentance. And so many of these 246 00:14:41.330 --> 00:14:45.600 themes are things that Endo was struggling with himself as 247 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:48.379 he watched what he believed, and he talks about in 248 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.639 the story and has talked about in other places of writing, 249 00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:54.409 that there was something about Japanese that made it difficult 250 00:14:54.450 --> 00:14:58.669 for Christianity to set root in. In the book, he 251 00:14:58.710 --> 00:15:01.029 calls it a swamp. And this was something repeated through 252 00:15:01.070 --> 00:15:03.950 his work, that there was something by nature of Japanese 253 00:15:04.009 --> 00:15:08.899 people that resisted the gospel and some misunderstanding of what 254 00:15:08.940 --> 00:15:11.179 was going on there that was specific to them. By 255 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:14.179 the way, that was rejected by people who criticized him, 256 00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:17.980 particularly Japanese Christians who see him as using those characters 257 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.190 as a cop-out for flaws in character or flaws in theology. 258 00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:27.299 But that was so repetitive in his work, right? He 259 00:15:27.450 --> 00:15:30.169 wants to use this story to be able to tell 260 00:15:30.250 --> 00:15:35.529 his story of struggling with the marriage of Japan and Catholicism. 261 00:15:37.669 --> 00:15:39.850 I want to tell you about a new feature on 262 00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:45.129 our website, Equip.org, for the Christian Research Journal. At the 263 00:15:45.230 --> 00:15:50.590 top of the website main landing page, you'll see different categories. 264 00:15:50.610 --> 00:15:53.649 If you click on Journal, of course you'll see the 265 00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:55.919 Christian Research Journal, but You'll. 266 00:15:55.799 --> 00:15:57.759 Also see something called columns. 267 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.870 If you click on columns, what you'll find is a 268 00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:06.129 list of all of our regular columns that we have 269 00:16:06.490 --> 00:16:09.710 and where you can find some of your favorite authors' 270 00:16:10.750 --> 00:16:15.019 written articles. So you'll see at the top of this 271 00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:20.559 landing page for columns, we have cultural apologetics, fringe files, 272 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:25.730 mainly with our author, Lindsay Mettenwaldt, music of the spheres 273 00:16:25.789 --> 00:16:32.230 about science and faith, ethical apologetics, usually pieces by Jay Watts, 274 00:16:32.889 --> 00:16:39.460 cultural critiques, theological trends with Ann Kennedy, doctrinal foundations with 275 00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:45.259 Matt Kennedy, literary apologetics, our ongoing philosopher series, which we've 276 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:50.159 been doing for decades, our viewpoint column, which are op-ed pieces, 277 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.740 effective evangelism, Practical Hermeneutics, and Postmodern Realities. 278 00:16:55.830 --> 00:16:58.929 Which is a column for younger authors. So there's a 279 00:16:58.990 --> 00:17:03.629 lot to explore by going to our columns page. And 280 00:17:04.150 --> 00:17:06.250 especially if I note a. 281 00:17:06.250 --> 00:17:10.769 Particular article is in a specific column each week when 282 00:17:10.829 --> 00:17:14.250 I interview authors, you'll easily be able to find it. 283 00:17:14.349 --> 00:17:18.559 So we invite you to explore the new landing page 284 00:17:18.660 --> 00:17:21.640 of columns at the Christian Research. 285 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:28.119 Journal tab 4equip. org. Well, now back to my conversation about 286 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:33.819 literary apologetics, which is a discussion with Jay Watts about 287 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:41.839 the 1966 Japanese novel by Shusaku Endo, and it's called Silence. 288 00:17:42.900 --> 00:17:46.400 Before the break, you were talking about how he uses 289 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:52.049 his stories to try to figure out his own story 290 00:17:52.069 --> 00:17:54.480 and how he fits as a believer in his different 291 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:55.900 spiritual struggles. 292 00:17:55.980 --> 00:18:00.119 And I think that definitely comes through his other work. 293 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:02.940 The work that I read was one of his last 294 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.750 works right before he died in 1996. 295 00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:08.150 And that was a novel called Deep River. 296 00:18:08.190 --> 00:18:12.569 And that's very much, you see that struggle of what 297 00:18:12.849 --> 00:18:17.460 he is wondering about what it really means to be a. 298 00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:19.279 Christian and minister in the name of Christ. 299 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.619 So I want to talk to you a little bit 300 00:18:21.779 --> 00:18:25.680 about the themes because you were saying that so many 301 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:29.029 people have come up to you and you've heard your 302 00:18:29.069 --> 00:18:30.500 daughter and her friends. 303 00:18:30.730 --> 00:18:32.269 Talk about it when they were in high school. 304 00:18:32.329 --> 00:18:35.150 So when we think about the themes, what are the 305 00:18:36.609 --> 00:18:43.140 specific charges against God that's, you know, when we think 306 00:18:43.180 --> 00:18:46.160 about the silence of God? And I think that you 307 00:18:46.180 --> 00:18:49.609 were saying that people are Still thinking about that today, 308 00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:50.630 struggling with that. 309 00:18:52.269 --> 00:18:53.369 You know, recently. 310 00:18:52.990 --> 00:18:58.569 You wrote an article for us on prayer and deconstruction. So, 311 00:18:58.930 --> 00:19:02.710 you know, these are issues also in this endo novel, Silence. 312 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:05.119 So why don't you talk a little bit about this theme?

313 00:19:05.180 --> 00:19:07.579 Because I know you've thought about it since you wrote 314 00:19:07.619 --> 00:19:10.579 that article on deconstruction and prayer for us. And just 315 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:14.380 having interacted probably with students or others, just trying to 316 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.599 interpret what they perceive to be silence from God. 317 00:19:18.579 --> 00:19:21.640 Yeah, and there's three specific ones that I look at. Now, 318 00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:23.599 I said, one of the things that fascinates me about 319 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:26.079 the book is that early on in the book, you 320 00:19:26.099 --> 00:19:28.160 see the faithful martyrs. You see these people who are 321 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:31.519 dying faithful to Christ. But the bulk of the story 322 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.779 centers around a number of apostates. I mean, one heading 323 00:19:36.819 --> 00:19:40.509 to apostasy and three who have already embraced it. One 324 00:19:40.549 --> 00:19:44.809 of those is a character named Kichijiro, who is a 325 00:19:44.930 --> 00:19:47.210 mess of a human being that they meet in Macau 326 00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:50.539 before they go over to sneak into Japania. actually helps 327 00:19:50.579 --> 00:19:56.609 them to sneak into Japan. And each one of them 328 00:19:56.690 --> 00:20:00.069 seems to struggle with something different. So he struggles with 329 00:20:00.109 --> 00:20:04.069 this sense of unfairness. that God is unfair in what 330 00:20:04.109 --> 00:20:07.509 he asks of people, that he could not, by his 331 00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:11.589 very nature, handle a difficult path, and yet God placed 332 00:20:11.630 --> 00:20:14.789 him on a difficult path. So one of them, and 333 00:20:14.829 --> 00:20:17.930 Rodriguez agrees with this, and it comes up again with Rodriguez, 334 00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:21.190 who is the central protagonist, Father Rodriguez, as he is 335 00:20:21.250 --> 00:20:24.089 struggling with his own faith, he thinks about the unfairness, 336 00:20:24.190 --> 00:20:26.970 not just of Kichijiro, but also unfairness in how God 337 00:20:27.009 --> 00:20:29.779 dealt with Judas. Both of those things come up a lot. 338 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.819 This concept like God is unfair. Another concept, this one 339 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.779 comes from both an apostate and then someone who claims 340 00:20:37.819 --> 00:20:42.269 to have never, ever believed, a character named the Interpreter 341 00:20:42.289 --> 00:20:47.549 or called the Interpreter. He is there who is basically 342 00:20:47.630 --> 00:20:52.529 as the accuser. He is constantly in Rodriguez's ear throughout 343 00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:55.579 the latter half of the book, questioning his faith, questioning 344 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:00.019 his relationship to the Japanese, questioning missions. And he was 345 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:04.940 raised by Jesuit. Another character, Inuyui, who is the leader 346 00:21:05.119

--> 00:21:08.059 of the persecution, is an apostate. He was baptized, and 347 00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:12.359 then his apostate becomes governor of this area of Japan 348 00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:15.609 and the samurais, and he leads them in this new 349 00:21:15.869 --> 00:21:19.950 age of persecution, where instead of killing the priests, which 350 00:21:20.069 --> 00:21:23.250 didn't work, he says the way that we defeat Christianity 351 00:21:23.329 --> 00:21:27.529 is we kill the believers and make the priests apostates. 352 00:21:28.089 --> 00:21:31.670 So the challenge of the Book of Silence is that 353 00:21:31.730 --> 00:21:36.630 they are doing horribly evil things to the villagers or 354 00:21:36.670 --> 00:21:40.880 to the Christians, and they're making the priest watch. Because 355 00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:44.859 they don't want the priest dead. Dead priests help the movement. 356 00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:48.099 What they want is apostate priests to break the leadership 357 00:21:48.140 --> 00:21:52.599 structure of Catholicism in Japan. And so... You see in 358 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:55.339 him and from him and the interpreter, from the Japanese 359 00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:58.940 who are actually leading the persecution, they bring an argument 360 00:21:59.059 --> 00:22:02.720 from evil, that God doesn't exist, that obviously he's not real, 361 00:22:03.089 --> 00:22:06.109 because if there were a God, this evil would not 362 00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:08.430 be allowed. He would intercede. He would step in. Look 363 00:22:08.470 --> 00:22:10.470 around you. Look at the suffering. Look at the pain. 364 00:22:10.829 --> 00:22:14.250 And since God will not intercede, it's left to you, 365 00:22:14.769 --> 00:22:17.349 the priest, to intercede in a way that he will not. 366 00:22:17.650 --> 00:22:20.569 He cannot. He will not. He is not there. But 367 00:22:20.609 --> 00:22:22.910 you claim to love mercy. And so all you have 368 00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:25.950 to do to end the persecution is to become an apostate. 369 00:22:26.970 --> 00:22:30.190 And that will end it. So they bring this argument, 370 00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:33.720 and explicitly at one point, the interpreter states the problem 371 00:22:33.759 --> 00:22:36.619 of evil, the idea that if evil and suffering exist, 372 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:39.539 then he is clearly not there, and you are fighting 373 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:42.839 for a lie. And then finally, the last theme that 374 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:46.079 I feel is repetitively heard throughout is disappointment with God. 375 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:47.339 And I think at the end of the day, and 376 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.210 in the foreword of the book, they talk about Japanese 377 00:22:51.269 --> 00:22:54.529 Christians today at academic level who responded to the book 378 00:22:54.569 --> 00:22:59.420 Silence by saying these were not great Christians who were apostates. 379 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.440 Even in the context of

Endo's story, these were people 380 00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:05.839 who never had true faith, never fully understood what their 381 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:09.339 relationship with God. Their motivations were European, and then they 382 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:13.430 thrived under the umbrella of this European faith where they 383 00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:15.589 were protected. But once they were placed in the field 384 00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:18.710 and they faced secularism and they faced paganism and they 385 00:23:18.789 --> 00:23:23.660 faced hostility, The reality was that these people who apostatized, 386 00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:27.220 apostatized not because of failure on God's part, because of 387 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.880 failure on theirs. And you hear it throughout from Ferreira 388 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:35.519 and Rodriguez, disappointment with God, what they expected the missionary 389 00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:38.700 field to be, what they expected their life to be, 390 00:23:39.079 --> 00:23:41.900 what they expected their fruits of their work to be 391 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.769 and their labor to be, and what God was actually 392 00:23:44.829 --> 00:23:48.029 giving them. And the distance between those two things drove 393 00:23:48.049 --> 00:23:51.369 a wedge between them and God where they ultimately joined 394 00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:54.809 sides and not just apostatizing to God in the sense 395 00:23:54.829 --> 00:23:57.289 that they just claim disbelief to end it all and 396 00:23:57.369 --> 00:24:00.890 struggle and torture, but they actually end up living amongst 397 00:24:01.049 --> 00:24:05.190 and serving the very people who were actually doing the 398 00:24:05.430 --> 00:24:08.539 evil that they were blaming God for. And so there's, 399 00:24:08.740 --> 00:24:12.880 but you see these, or I hear these conversations. I 400 00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:16.039 just had a conversation about a young man in my 401 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:18.539 son's life. My son is the second year law student, 402 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.359 the friend of his who, who, One of the reasons 403 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.519 he's walked away from the faith is because of the 404 00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:28.180 problem of evil and suffering. I hear that constantly debated 405 00:24:28.259 --> 00:24:31.839 and argued about in atheists. So when I'm on campuses 406 00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:34.859 talking to young people at colleges, the existence of pervasive 407 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:37.829 evil and suffering is terrible for them. I have talked 408 00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:40.960 to so many pastors and Christians about how they deal 409 00:24:41.009 --> 00:24:44.269 with the disappointment of the ministry life. And that disappointment 410 00:24:44.329 --> 00:24:47.670 is eroding their faith, eroding their desire to talk to 411 00:24:47.730 --> 00:24:51.410 God the same way you see it exactly today. spelled 412 00:24:51.470 --> 00:24:54.039 out in the book with Rodriguez, who struggles to pray 413 00:24:54.099 --> 00:24:56.519 because he feels like his prayer has moved on from 414 00:24:56.559 --> 00:24:58.920 being effective and has come somewhere into the level of 415 00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:02.519 blame and accusation towards God for his silence and unwillingness 416 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:06.240 to intervene. And this theme of unfairness, the idea that 417 00:25:06.460 --> 00:25:09.339 it is unfair what I've been given, it's unfair what 418 00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.059 I've had to face, it's unfair that other people have 419 00:25:12.099 --> 00:25:14.900 gotten things that I have not gotten, all three of 420 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.019 these things just resonate in the life of the people 421 00:25:19.059 --> 00:25:22.170 that I talk to When I'm trying to understand and 422 00:25:22.349 --> 00:25:25.089 asking them, you know, in this, there are some who 423 00:25:25.109 --> 00:25:28.640 go follow this deconstruction and meaning that they abandon the faith. 424 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:31.579 And there are some people for whom this process leads 425 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:35.920 to a new and stronger faith, but a different understanding 426 00:25:35.980 --> 00:25:39.119 of concepts like how God interacts with us in our 427 00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:42.750 time of pain and different understanding of how God communicates 428 00:25:42.829 --> 00:25:45.349 to us and looking for him through different paths and 429 00:25:45.390 --> 00:25:48.440 different ways. So for some people, this is the greatest. 430 00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:51.259 I will say for me, my own experiences with this 431 00:25:51.500 --> 00:25:53.960 that led me to think, I believe myself to be 432 00:25:54.009 --> 00:25:57.529 a better Christian, a more patient Christian, a slower Christian, 433 00:25:57.569 --> 00:25:59.029 if that makes sense to you. And when I mean 434 00:25:59.069 --> 00:26:01.569 that in a good way, I'm not so quick to 435 00:26:01.609 --> 00:26:03.569 respond to things. I take my time a little bit 436 00:26:03.589 --> 00:26:07.650 more than I used to. And obviously for me, the 437 00:26:07.730 --> 00:26:09.970 most important thing is I think that through it all, 438 00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:13.309 I am a more faithful Christian, meaning I think I 439 00:26:13.349 --> 00:26:16.049 reserved or held back things from God that I would never, 440 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:20.039 that I needed to protect. And I think you see 441 00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:24.180 the same. I obviously endo went through similar things because 442 00:26:24.220 --> 00:26:26.269 I can see him struggling with things that I've not 443 00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:28.630 only heard from others, but that I've, I've seen in 444 00:26:28.690 --> 00:26:30.509 my own life, as far as my own prayer life 445 00:26:30.529 --> 00:26:33.369 with God and how I dealt with different things during 446 00:26:33.410 --> 00:26:36.130 my particular time where the silence of God was

something 447 00:26:36.490 --> 00:26:40.630 that motivated me deeply. And so I, Those themes are 448 00:26:40.670 --> 00:26:43.359 alive in the lives of people struggling with God today. 449 00:26:43.390 --> 00:26:45.430 At least I hear them, experience them and see them. 450 00:26:45.630 --> 00:26:48.660 And I wanted to approach them as honestly as possible 451 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.599 in the article, but also without trying to give empathetic 452 00:26:52.660 --> 00:26:55.059 cover to the people here. I see people giving cover 453 00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.400 to the people, the books. So I've actually tried to 454 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.240 approach this from this idea of like the book of James, 455 00:27:00.259 --> 00:27:03.359 where it's like, it does matter what we believe. It 456 00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:05.539 does matter what we feel and think, but it ultimately 457 00:27:05.619 --> 00:27:08.799 also matters what, how our beliefs translate into action and action. 458 00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:15.519 is rightly and justly judged. So we are ultimately, our 459 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:19.660 beliefs lead to practice. And if we have beliefs that 460 00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.200 don't lead to correct practice, then there's probably at root 461 00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:25.309 something wrong with our beliefs. And that's the way I've 462 00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:28.549 tried to approach the examination of these themes in this book. 463 00:27:28.690 --> 00:27:32.569 Endo gave us characters that did things. Now let's connect 464 00:27:32.869 --> 00:27:35.009 what they did with what they claim to believe and 465 00:27:35.049 --> 00:27:37.160 see if there was a breakdown between and how they 466 00:27:37.180 --> 00:27:39.880 understood God that led them to be apostates, and a 467 00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:43.500 story where he has littered the story with faithful people. 468 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:50.329 I want to talk about the persecution of Christians in Japan, 469 00:27:50.369 --> 00:27:54.269 which is very central to the history of Christianity in Japan, 470 00:27:54.309 --> 00:27:57.990 which we were talking about earlier in the podcast that 471 00:27:58.630 --> 00:28:03.170 really that happened with the Portuguese Jesuit priests who came 472 00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:08.900 in the 1500s to Japan and started trying to convert 473 00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:14.160 the Japanese people. And over time, you know, leaders in 474 00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.450 Japan felt that, you know, and it was kind of, 475 00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:21.289 if anyone's seen Shogun, it's kind of like that kind 476 00:28:21.329 --> 00:28:25.569 of area, feudal area time in Japanese history, they perceived 477 00:28:25.609 --> 00:28:29.410 it as a threat. And we'll talk a little bit 478 00:28:29.450 --> 00:28:32.210 about that and just how much of a threat that 479 00:28:32.250 --> 00:28:32.960 they thought that it. 480 00:28:33.019 --> 00:28:36.940 Was, that it was really a priority for. 481 00:28:36.859 --> 00:28:41.119 Them to basically squash Christianity and just get rid of 482 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.029 it altogether. And after that, I think it was over 483 00:28:45.069 --> 00:28:47.849 a period of almost, I don't know, a hundred years 484 00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:50.410 or something when all of this is happening and starting 485 00:28:50.490 --> 00:28:53.950 in the late 1500s is that, um, it became. 486 00:28:53.970 --> 00:28:56.559 Uh, I think, I don't know if it's mentioned in silence. 487 00:28:56.599 --> 00:28:59.339 There's this whole idea of the secret Christians, like in 488 00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:00.579 the crests of, uh. 489 00:29:01.299 --> 00:29:01.940 Different families. 490 00:29:01.980 --> 00:29:04.339 You could see different Christian symbols that people didn't know 491 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:04.960 that had to do. 492 00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:06.359 They were like the hidden Christians or whatever. 493 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:10.319 And then also it was like, you know, it was 494 00:29:10.339 --> 00:29:15.000 illegal until it was revived in the 1800s. So that's 495 00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:17.619 quite a bit of time and a lot going on 496 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:21.829 in terms of sustained persecution. And so how did that 497 00:29:21.890 --> 00:29:25.609 tactic of persecution that, you know, basically I said squashed 498 00:29:25.690 --> 00:29:29.769 Christianity and, How does that set up what's happening to 499 00:29:30.009 --> 00:29:31.509 the characters in silence? 500 00:29:32.470 --> 00:29:35.190 Yeah, and I mentioned earlier that it starts with a 501 00:29:35.269 --> 00:29:39.180 guy by the name Inouye, I'm probably mispronouncing it, more 502 00:29:39.220 --> 00:29:45.960 likely than not, who understands both Christianity and the Japanese culture. 503 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:51.240 His recognition of the idea that fundamentally the villagers are 504 00:29:51.299 --> 00:29:55.509 people that are followers. And by the way, what's interesting is, 505 00:29:55.710 --> 00:29:58.750 and I think that Endo is fairly unrelenting in his 506 00:29:58.809 --> 00:30:03.390 criticism of the Portuguese Jesuits and their view of the Japanese, 507 00:30:03.990 --> 00:30:08.009 that they both share, both the Portuguese Jesuits and the 508 00:30:08.069 --> 00:30:14.039 persecutors share similar dismissive views of the Japanese villagers and 509 00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.700 the common Japanese person in the story that they're wrestling over. 510 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:21.200 They both seem to see them as followers by nature. 511 00:30:21.980 --> 00:30:25.710 The Japanese magistrates think that if they can destroy the leadership, 512 00:30:25.829 --> 00:30:29.089 the faith in the leadership of the priests, then of 513 00:30:29.150 --> 00:30:31.509 course they will just fall back in line and follow 514 00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:37.309 traditional Japanese believing because the priests were inspiring them when 515

00:30:37.349 --> 00:30:40.420 the first wave of persecution was the martyrdom of the priests. 516 00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:44.599 And so they had to break the inspiration and thereby 517 00:30:44.660 --> 00:30:47.680 giving them nowhere to follow and hold the priests in 518 00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:51.759 contempt by not only breaking them and forcing them to apostatize, 519 00:30:52.099 --> 00:30:56.740 but also then incorporating them as almost servants in their world. 520 00:30:57.109 --> 00:31:01.730 Ferrer becomes a translator. They used, actually, the priest that 521 00:31:01.769 --> 00:31:06.410 Father Rodriguez is based on historically, became a historian, basically. 522 00:31:06.430 --> 00:31:10.849 It was his job to teach the Japanese about Christianity 523 00:31:10.890 --> 00:31:13.230 in the West so that they could better prepare themselves 524 00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:16.119 to reject it when the next waves came. And they 525 00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:19.740 were servants of these groups. And so both of them 526 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:25.480 seeing the villagers as essentially followers, the priest initially, like 527 00:31:25.539 --> 00:31:27.819 we have to have priests in country because they have 528 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:30.900 to have leaders to lead them to God. And the 529 00:31:31.059 --> 00:31:33.980 magistrates say, we have to break the priest and destroy 530 00:31:34.049 --> 00:31:37.269 them because that will leave no leadership for them to follow. 531 00:31:37.329 --> 00:31:39.710 And they will fall back in line with traditional practices 532 00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:42.470 here in Japan. And they will be Japanese and they 533 00:31:42.490 --> 00:31:46.569 will not be, uh, they will not let, um, I 534 00:31:46.609 --> 00:31:48.809 think at one point, one of the characters, the interpreter, 535 00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:56.130 talks about the missionaries as being the advances of an unwanted, 536 00:31:56.309 --> 00:32:00.799 unattractive woman. We don't want you. We don't need you. 537 00:32:00.940 --> 00:32:03.460 And you're constantly forcing yourself on us as like an 538 00:32:03.579 --> 00:32:07.259 unattractive suitor that we're not desiring to have in our lives. 539 00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:11.579 And so the way that they break them down is 540 00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:17.900 rather than torture the priest, They torture. And they're unreliable. 541 00:32:18.269 --> 00:32:22.470 There's unreliable narrators throughout the story. It's impossible to know 542 00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:25.750 what's true and what's not. Because as they kill these villagers, 543 00:32:26.009 --> 00:32:28.970 they tell the priest, these villagers aren't even dying faithfully. 544 00:32:29.009 --> 00:32:32.539 They've already apostatized. They've apostatized multiple times. They're not Christians. 545 00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:34.559 You're just letting people who don't even believe what you 546 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:39.240 believe die unnecessarily. And they tell them specifically, you claim 547 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:42.599 to be Christians. You claim to care about mercy. You 548 00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:45.920 claim that the highest order of Christianity and faith is mercy. 549 00:32:46.380 --> 00:32:49.720 And yet you can show an act of mercy on 550 00:32:49.789 --> 00:32:52.720 these innocent people who are dying for no reason because 551 00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:55.289 they're not even faithful believers and they don't even fully 552 00:32:55.309 --> 00:32:58.470 understand what Christianity is because of the failings of the 553 00:32:58.509 --> 00:33:02.009 Japanese character. They can't understand Christianity the way that you 554 00:33:02.029 --> 00:33:05.990 want them to, but they're going to die needlessly because 555 00:33:06.049 --> 00:33:08.009 you refuse to have mercy on them. And all you 556 00:33:08.049 --> 00:33:10.950 have to do to have mercy is step on an 557 00:33:11.069 --> 00:33:14.109 image of God. Step on an image of Jesus. Just 558 00:33:14.150 --> 00:33:17.630 put your foot on him. Publicly apostate. We don't even 559 00:33:17.650 --> 00:33:20.029 care if you believe it. You just have to publicly 560 00:33:20.089 --> 00:33:24.140 do it to show everybody that you're not faithful and 561 00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:27.500 that you've apostatized so that there are no faithful priests 562 00:33:27.940 --> 00:33:31.049 left for them to turn to. And they said, it's 563 00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:34.450 all on you. Because if there was a God that 564 00:33:34.490 --> 00:33:36.630 was going to intervene, he would have intervened already. And 565 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:38.960 all of this death and all of this murder and 566 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:42.079 all of this torture and all of the misery and 567 00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:46.099 suffering that they're enduring, it's all on you. And they 568 00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:50.170 break the priest through this process by saying, we're appealing 569 00:33:50.190 --> 00:33:52.269 to the mercy you claim to believe in and that 570 00:33:52.289 --> 00:33:56.289 your God, who isn't real, will never show up and 571 00:33:56.349 --> 00:33:58.849 show to these people. You have to be the mercy 572 00:33:58.890 --> 00:34:03.009 in their life because God won't. And that exact tactic 573 00:34:03.089 --> 00:34:06.630 is what you see through the story is what undermines 574 00:34:06.849 --> 00:34:11.429 Rodriguez and had undermined Ferreira was this idea of where 575 00:34:11.610 --> 00:34:15.949 is God? We're seeing terrible things happen and he does nothing. 576 00:34:15.989 --> 00:34:18.719 And even beyond that, he does nothing. I mean, the 577 00:34:18.820 --> 00:34:22.400 idea of there's no response to it. So they brutally 578 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:28.889 end Christianity by both destroying the leadership structure, leaving the 579 00:34:28.929 --> 00:34:33.139 Christians who follow nowhere to turn to. disheartening them by 580 00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:37.500

constantly telling everybody that everyone is apostatizing. There are no 581 00:34:37.559 --> 00:34:40.760 faithful Christians. There is nobody dying for their faith. They're 582 00:34:40.780 --> 00:34:43.840 just dying because we have to break the priest. And 583 00:34:43.889 --> 00:34:46.769 at the end of the day, trying to create, through 584 00:34:46.789 --> 00:34:48.969 the knowledge they gained from the priest, for the next 585 00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:52.889 wave of Christianity that would come, a hostile environment towards 586 00:34:52.949 --> 00:34:56.210 this belief system. And even so, it is amazing. That's 587 00:34:56.230 --> 00:34:58.579 why I said early in the book, you see pushback 588 00:34:58.699 --> 00:35:03.420 in the translator's notes about how Japanese Christians today who 589 00:35:03.539 --> 00:35:07.139 see the people who died as faithful say, it's not 590 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.130 fair to say that it was something wrong with us. 591 00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:11.199 It's not fair to say that Christianity couldn't take root. 592 00:35:11.300 --> 00:35:13.480 It did take root. And we are still here. There 593 00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:17.110 are faithful among us. We just are very few, but 594 00:35:17.130 --> 00:35:19.989 we have survived and we're faithful. So it is, it 595 00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:22.670 is a crushing and terrible. And that's one of the 596 00:35:22.710 --> 00:35:25.630 things I think that really bothers the pastors that I 597 00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:28.369 talked to this idea of being put in a position 598 00:35:28.889 --> 00:35:32.300 where they have to decide, Are they capable of showing mercy? 599 00:35:33.099 --> 00:35:36.079 Are they going to show mercy? Will they allow other 600 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:38.949 people to die while they get to live? Will they 601 00:35:38.989 --> 00:35:42.489 allow people to be tortured while they remain untouched? Just 602 00:35:43.030 --> 00:35:45.210 what would God do? I mean, that is the focus 603 00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:48.030 of the question. What will they do? What would God do? 604 00:35:48.170 --> 00:35:49.869 And why is he not there doing anything? 605 00:35:51.949 --> 00:35:54.139 Well, I want to ask you about one of the characters. 606 00:35:54.219 --> 00:35:57.719 So one of the characters is a Japanese Christian, Kichijiro. 607 00:35:58.400 --> 00:35:58.800 And he is.... 608 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:05.550 A character that you described as haunting the protagonist, Roman 609 00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:10.469 Catholic priest, Father Rodriguez. And Kichijiro is also a character 610 00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:13.639 that's kind of polarizing. A lot of people debate him 611 00:36:13.969 --> 00:36:18.420 when they talk about this book. So how does he fit? Well, 612 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:22.960 first of all, in some of your critique of who 613 00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:26.239 God is from the characters in the book, and how 614 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.719 is he maybe portraying

that God is unfair, or how 615 00:36:29.739 --> 00:36:31.480 does he fit in? Because he is, like I said, 616 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:32.599 a polarizing character. 617 00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:36.320 He shows up as a wreck of a human being, 618 00:36:36.340 --> 00:36:39.000 but there's some mystery behind him. And as the story unfolds, 619 00:36:39.019 --> 00:36:42.929 you find out that when his village was seized by 620 00:36:42.989 --> 00:36:47.429 the persecution, he and all of his siblings were taken, 621 00:36:47.449 --> 00:36:51.489 and all of his siblings stayed faithful through torture and 622 00:36:51.550 --> 00:36:58.090 ultimately death. And only Kichijiro, And because of that, he's 623 00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:01.429 unwelcome in his own community. They find him not even 624 00:37:01.489 --> 00:37:06.880 in Japan. But why he becomes polarizing is because for 625 00:37:06.929 --> 00:37:10.300 some people, they see him and they give him credit 626 00:37:10.360 --> 00:37:16.119 because he has a pattern. He apostatizes to avoid torture, 627 00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:19.809 to avoid pain, to avoid discomfort. But then he comes 628 00:37:19.889 --> 00:37:22.809 back and asks for forgiveness. And then he apostatizes again, 629 00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:25.309 and then he comes back and asks for forgiveness. And 630 00:37:25.329 --> 00:37:26.989 then he apostatizes again, and then he comes back. It 631 00:37:27.050 --> 00:37:29.469 is the pattern of his life is to break faith 632 00:37:29.570 --> 00:37:32.579 in God and then to run back and to recognize 633 00:37:32.840 --> 00:37:35.900 he is consumed with self-hatred when he is in the 634 00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.000 state of apostasy. When he is faithful to God, he 635 00:37:39.059 --> 00:37:42.320 is full of pride. And when I say he haunts 636 00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:46.429 the main character, Father Rodriguez, he does. In Father Rodriguez's 637 00:37:46.510 --> 00:37:50.559 doubts and struggles, he cannot seem to escape Kichijiro. He 638 00:37:50.599 --> 00:37:54.500 just keeps showing up. He's following the father everywhere. But 639 00:37:54.820 --> 00:37:58.480 he also breaks the father's heart with his constant vacillating 640 00:37:58.539 --> 00:38:01.059 back and forth between saying, I want to be faithful. 641 00:38:01.099 --> 00:38:03.920 I want to be faithful. And then every time there 642 00:38:03.980 --> 00:38:07.489 is anything to be gained by apostatizing, he immediately does it. 643 00:38:07.960 --> 00:38:13.239 And he is actively eroding the faith. of father rodriguez 644 00:38:13.340 --> 00:38:17.059 because he survives when others die he even said that 645 00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:19.840 at one point the two faithful men fell like rocks 646 00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:21.639 to the bottom of the sea and yet you survive 647 00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:25.210 and here you are and you can't like kichijiro as 648 00:38:25.949 --> 00:38:29.670 far as how he feels then with unfairness both he 649 00:38:29.789 --> 00:38:35.070 and father rodriguez both voice explicitly that it was unfair 650 00:38:35.130 --> 00:38:37.980 for him to live in a time of persecution It 651 00:38:38.019 --> 00:38:41.619 is his heart's desire to be a faithful Christian, he says. 652 00:38:42.500 --> 00:38:44.860 That's what he wants. I say it's important that he 653 00:38:44.980 --> 00:38:48.119 says it. His actions tell us something different. He wants 654 00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:50.849 to be a faithful Christian. And he says, had I 655 00:38:50.889 --> 00:38:54.570 been allowed to live prior to this persecution, to this 656 00:38:54.670 --> 00:38:58.690 age of persecution, or after this age of persecution, I 657 00:38:58.730 --> 00:39:02.230 would have lived and I would have been faithful and 658 00:39:02.250 --> 00:39:05.610 I would have died a Christian. But because I was 659 00:39:05.730 --> 00:39:11.250 placed in this time, Specifically, I have to be exposed 660 00:39:11.309 --> 00:39:14.099 for the weakness that I am, for having the weakness 661 00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.300 that I have, that I can't hold fast to the faith, 662 00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:20.320 that I'm afraid, that I am a weak, he calls 663 00:39:20.340 --> 00:39:23.219 himself a weak shoot. He says the martyrs are strong shoots. 664 00:39:23.659 --> 00:39:27.210 I am a weak shoot and can never, ever survive 665 00:39:27.730 --> 00:39:33.969 the torment and torture of persecutions. And Rodriguez agrees. Rodriguez 666 00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:38.039 says it's unfair. And that charge extends from just an 667 00:39:38.059 --> 00:39:41.920 evaluation of Chichijiro. And this is where Martin Scorsese got interested. 668 00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:45.900 He extends it beyond Chichijiro and goes into Judas. where 669 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.570 he says he charges Jesus with it being unfair how 670 00:39:50.610 --> 00:39:53.969 he treated Judas. Why did he allow Judas to be 671 00:39:54.010 --> 00:39:56.449 a part of his following if he knew Judas was 672 00:39:56.469 --> 00:39:59.070 going to betray him? Why did he send Judas off 673 00:39:59.110 --> 00:40:00.989 to betray him and say, go and do what you're 674 00:40:01.010 --> 00:40:04.099 going to do? Why would he not accept Judas? Why 675 00:40:04.139 --> 00:40:07.659 was Judas the one that Jesus would not allow to 676 00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.880 repent and to come back? He blames Jesus for using 677 00:40:11.980 --> 00:40:16.309 Judas as a tool. And so you see this this 678 00:40:16.550 --> 00:40:21.449 idea of unfairness that goes through this. And what I 679 00:40:21.510 --> 00:40:25.510 immediately don't like about this, when you talk about the 680 00:40:25.670 --> 00:40:29.079 idea of unfairness, is that I think we have a 681 00:40:29.139 --> 00:40:31.719 misunderstanding of it. There's a book called The Way of Medicine, 682 00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:35.400 Ethics and the Healing Profession. It's written by a physician, 683 00:40:35.480 -->

00:40:39.019 Farr Curlin, and a philosopher, Christopher Tolson. And in there, 684 00:40:39.059 --> 00:40:42.099 they talk about the literal definition of unfairness. I've actually 685 00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:45.199 read articles about silence where they talk about the concept 686 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.119 of unfairness. And when they say unfairness means that you 687 00:40:49.159 --> 00:40:51.030 don't get what you, or you get, you don't get 688 00:40:51.050 --> 00:40:53.769 what you deserve. And that's not actually what is meant 689 00:40:53.829 --> 00:40:56.789 by the doctrine of unfairness or the concept of unfairness. 690 00:40:56.829 --> 00:40:59.349 What is meant by that belief in unfairness is that 691 00:40:59.369 --> 00:41:02.349 when two parties enter into a relationship with each other, 692 00:41:02.869 --> 00:41:06.889 there's an equal sharing of the benefits and the burdens. That's, 693 00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:08.980 that's the definition and the way of medicine. I said, 694 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.400 it gives a great definition explanation of that as it 695 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:15.679 relates to the medical practice. But what, but that, that, 696 00:41:16.210 --> 00:41:19.699 articulated in that sense, when we see that something is unfair, 697 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:22.320 what we mean is that as two parties have entered 698 00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:25.820 a relationship with each other, both are getting an equal 699 00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:28.559 share of the benefits and of the burdens. And if 700 00:41:28.739 --> 00:41:31.840 any party at one point gets more of the burdens, 701 00:41:32.340 --> 00:41:36.010 then the relationship has become an unfair relationship. They're not 702 00:41:36.289 --> 00:41:38.559 mutually working for the good of both parties within it. 703 00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:41.750 That's what we mean by unfair. And the reason that 704 00:41:41.789 --> 00:41:43.670 I think this is so important when we deal with 705 00:41:43.690 --> 00:41:47.000 the idea of charging God's unfairness is as the characters 706 00:41:47.019 --> 00:41:50.010 in this book do, and as I've seen other people do. Even, 707 00:41:50.030 --> 00:41:53.690 I think it's in the 73rd Psalm, where the psalmist says, 708 00:41:53.829 --> 00:41:55.730 you know, God, it's not fair. I have stayed faithful, 709 00:41:55.769 --> 00:41:57.650 and these other people have broken faith with you, and 710 00:41:57.670 --> 00:42:00.449 they're They are breaking the laws and they are living 711 00:42:00.510 --> 00:42:04.030 this life. And he says, and I let that bother me. 712 00:42:04.110 --> 00:42:05.889 I let it get into my soul and my spirit. 713 00:42:05.929 --> 00:42:08.710 And I judged you as it being unfair. And I 714 00:42:08.789 --> 00:42:11.030 questioned why would I have been faithful all of this 715 00:42:11.070 --> 00:42:14.219 time when you're unfair? The faithful are punished and the 716 00:42:14.260 --> 00:42:18.000 wicked are doing great. Now that psalmist ultimately turns around 717 00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:20.920 and says, and that's all on me. Because after some reflection, 718 00:42:20.940 --> 00:42:23.460 I realized, and that's what I think we're getting to here. 719 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.929 It's not possible for God to treat us unfairly. It's 720 00:42:27.949 --> 00:42:31.349 just not. That category doesn't apply to our relationship with God, 721 00:42:31.769 --> 00:42:33.570 because there's no way that you and I can go 722 00:42:33.610 --> 00:42:38.380 into a relationship with God where he and I share 723 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:41.900 the benefits and burdens, right? All of the benefits of 724 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:45.079 the relationship with God emanate from God. All of the burdens, 725 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:48.400 even the burdens that Christ took the cross, emanate from us. 726 00:42:48.820 --> 00:42:51.889 There is no equal distribution of burdens and benefits between 727 00:42:51.949 --> 00:42:54.570 us and God. That's a category error to think of 728 00:42:54.610 --> 00:42:57.869 God in those terms. unfairness cannot be a part of 729 00:42:57.909 --> 00:43:00.929 my relationship with God. It can be hard. It can 730 00:43:00.949 --> 00:43:03.300 be difficult. And it has been for many people that 731 00:43:03.340 --> 00:43:05.400 I know. And there have been elements of my life 732 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:07.980 that have been very difficult and hard for me. But 733 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.760 they're not unfair. And one of the things I've heard 734 00:43:10.820 --> 00:43:13.159 people say when I talk to them is I felt 735 00:43:13.219 --> 00:43:15.750 like I was, and I remember this pastor telling me this. 736 00:43:16.269 --> 00:43:19.409 He said, I felt like my relationship with God before 737 00:43:19.590 --> 00:43:23.309 all of this started, this struggle that he went through was, 738 00:43:23.989 --> 00:43:26.690 you're lucky to have me, God. Make you lucky to 739 00:43:26.710 --> 00:43:30.070 have me and use me appropriately. It's a good thing 740 00:43:30.090 --> 00:43:31.710 you got me on your team. I'm a good guy 741 00:43:31.730 --> 00:43:35.650 to have on your team. And he then struggles with 742 00:43:35.670 --> 00:43:39.179 this concept of unfairness as God works on him through 743 00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:43.139 his own struggles. And where he ultimately landed was what 744 00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:45.260 we just talked about. This idea that it took that 745 00:43:45.300 --> 00:43:49.929 time for him to realize that I didn't give myself 746 00:43:49.989 --> 00:43:54.909 to God as a gift. All of creation is his. 747 00:43:56.050 --> 00:43:58.489 I came to him to enjoy the benefits that he 748 00:43:58.550 --> 00:44:00.920 introduces into my life, which is a relationship with him 749 00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.659 and a restoration into a relationship that I can't get 750 00:44:03.699 --> 00:44:06.570 to on my own. He didn't come to the table 751

00:44:06.610 --> 00:44:09.070 and promise me anything other than the restoration of that 752 00:44:09.110 --> 00:44:13.230 relationship and the restoration and correction of the life that 753 00:44:13.250 --> 00:44:16.289 I've led. by coming back into him, into the fold 754 00:44:16.329 --> 00:44:18.489 that he intended me to be in all along. So 755 00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:21.510 there is no, he's like, I have no benefits to 756 00:44:21.530 --> 00:44:23.809 bring to the table. There's no benefits to share with God. 757 00:44:24.309 --> 00:44:27.130 I saw myself as this great asset for God to use, 758 00:44:27.510 --> 00:44:30.130 and yet, and that God was misusing me. And that 759 00:44:30.150 --> 00:44:33.199 was just a category error. Fairness doesn't come into our 760 00:44:33.239 --> 00:44:35.400 relationship with God at all. And that's the same thing 761 00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:38.639 that you see here with Kichijiro and with Rodriguez, even 762 00:44:38.659 --> 00:44:41.260 his evaluation of them. They said, wow, wouldn't it have 763 00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:44.260 been nicer if God had not forced him to live 764 00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:47.409 in this time. And, and I said, that's, that is 765 00:44:47.489 --> 00:44:50.630 a misunderstanding of our relationship with God. The concept of 766 00:44:50.710 --> 00:44:53.550 unfairness cannot fit with that relationship because there is no 767 00:44:53.610 --> 00:44:56.690 more mutual sharing of burden and benefits. There are the 768 00:44:56.769 --> 00:44:59.449 benefits that God gives us. And they're the burdens that 769 00:44:59.469 --> 00:45:02.630 we take into that relationship. And he can't be counted 770 00:45:02.730 --> 00:45:06.889 as unfair for how he, he treats us in the 771 00:45:06.949 --> 00:45:08.929 process of helping us to grow closer to him. 772 00:45:10.010 --> 00:45:10.849 That's really interesting. 773 00:45:11.170 --> 00:45:13.510 Kind of interesting because people want to know, you know, 774 00:45:13.710 --> 00:45:17.889 I think fairness with God is a huge topic as 775 00:45:17.969 --> 00:45:21.650 people see it. So do you think that, you know, 776 00:45:21.670 --> 00:45:23.860 given what you just said, do you think that God uses, 777 00:45:24.260 --> 00:45:28.840 you know, persecution or suffering struggles that we have to 778 00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:33.079 sift us kind of like how Jesus was talking to 779 00:45:33.139 --> 00:45:35.539 Peter and saying that Satan would sift him in the 780 00:45:35.559 --> 00:45:39.059 gospel of Luke, rather than thinking about that as, Oh, 781 00:45:39.610 --> 00:45:44.329 God is doing something to me that is quote unquote unfair. Yeah. 782 00:45:44.570 --> 00:45:47.510 And the great thing about that scripture is where he 783 00:45:47.570 --> 00:45:51.989 tells Peter, Satan wants to sit you. I'm praying you're 784 00:45:52.010 --> 00:45:55.489 going to come out of this and your success is 785 00:45:55.530 --> 00:45:59.050 going to feed your, it's going to lift everybody up, 786 00:45:59.550 --> 00:46:01.809 but you're going to be a witness for, for, for 787 00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:04.289 how to come through this. And, and what a great, 788 00:46:04.989 --> 00:46:06.690 and I've talked to people on both sides. I've talked 789 00:46:06.710 --> 00:46:09.070 to people who have abandoned the faith. And I've talked 790 00:46:09.110 --> 00:46:12.610 to people who have their faith being strengthened. I've lived 791 00:46:12.630 --> 00:46:16.550 through that, my faith being strengthened through whatever relative trials 792 00:46:16.590 --> 00:46:19.510 or sufferings that we have. Mine is nothing in comparison 793 00:46:19.550 --> 00:46:23.929 to what Rodriguez goes through in this book. But what's 794 00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:27.840 interesting is I'm always interested that everybody has the same story. 795 00:46:29.429 --> 00:46:32.710 The same struggles, the same thing. I talked to this atheist. 796 00:46:32.730 --> 00:46:35.639 This atheist followed me around one day many years ago. 797 00:46:36.059 --> 00:46:38.599 They shadowed me for my work as I was going 798 00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:40.280 to campuses and speaking. I think I went to like 799 00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:42.719 three campuses over two days, and they just shadowed me 800 00:46:42.739 --> 00:46:45.099 at all these different events. And that night at dinner 801 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:46.800 between the two, I've been to two that day. We've 802 00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:48.570 got one more the next morning. We go out to dinner, 803 00:46:48.590 --> 00:46:50.969 and I said, tell me why you don't believe. And 804 00:46:51.010 --> 00:46:53.989 they share with me these stories. And these struggles that 805 00:46:54.010 --> 00:46:56.309 they've been through and the struggle with the silence of God, 806 00:46:56.429 --> 00:46:59.130 not sensing his presence. And then they tell me their 807 00:46:59.170 --> 00:47:03.750 reasons for being an atheist. And I think they saw 808 00:47:03.789 --> 00:47:07.030 me smiling. And they said, why are you smiling? I said, 809 00:47:07.070 --> 00:47:10.260 because every reason you've given me for why you're an 810 00:47:10.300 --> 00:47:13.119 atheist are the reasons that I abandoned atheism and came 811 00:47:13.139 --> 00:47:16.480 to Christianity. It's odd that we went through very similar things, 812 00:47:16.980 --> 00:47:19.760 but we ended up in such different places. And so 813 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:24.500 I do think that... And this is where I wrestled 814 00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:26.280 with the character of Kichijiro when I was talking. I 815 00:47:26.300 --> 00:47:29.000 was just recently talking to a professor at Stanford. He 816 00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:32.139 and I were discussing because he wrote his master's thesis 817 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.579 on this book. And I said, what did you think 818 00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:36.599 of Kichijiro? And he said, I think I probably was 819 00:47:36.760

--> 00:47:39.300 more sympathetic or empathetic to him than you probably are 820 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.659 based on our conversation here. And I asked him why. 821 00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:44.139 And as he was talking, I said, you know– But 822 00:47:44.380 --> 00:47:46.199 let's go back to the book of James and that 823 00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:48.989 we have to own what we do. Our beliefs are 824 00:47:49.050 --> 00:47:51.489 more than just this wish that I was better than 825 00:47:51.510 --> 00:47:54.670 I was. Ultimately, we're responsible for how we behave and 826 00:47:54.710 --> 00:47:57.150 how we interact in the world. And that is the 827 00:47:57.230 --> 00:48:00.630 great tell of what's inside of us. And if he 828 00:48:00.730 --> 00:48:03.980 wished to live in a time where he could have 829 00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.920 deceived himself to the point that he believed himself to 830 00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:12.340 be faithful, and God would not allow that. that God 831 00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.579 put him into a life that exposed him for not 832 00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.860 having the faith that he wanted to have, or that 833 00:48:17.900 --> 00:48:20.179 he may have believed he would have had under different circumstances. 834 00:48:20.539 --> 00:48:21.960 By the way, the same thing can be charged at 835 00:48:21.980 --> 00:48:26.500 Rodriguez and Ferreira in this story. Did God do them 836 00:48:26.579 --> 00:48:28.780 or deal them what I think C.S. Lewis calls in 837 00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:32.519 the book, A Severe Mercy, the author of the book 838 00:48:32.539 --> 00:48:35.019 talks about how C.S. Lewis gave him that term. God 839 00:48:35.039 --> 00:48:39.550 has dealt you a severe mercy. And for me, we 840 00:48:39.590 --> 00:48:42.280 have given through the gospel of Luke, Jesus says that 841 00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:44.519 there'll be people who come to me and say, you know, 842 00:48:45.019 --> 00:48:47.500 that I thought I was, you know, why, why are 843 00:48:47.539 --> 00:48:49.239 we not? I knew you, I did everything I was 844 00:48:49.260 --> 00:48:51.300 supposed to do. I cast out demons, your name, I 845 00:48:51.340 --> 00:48:53.260 served you. And he says away from it. I never 846 00:48:53.300 --> 00:48:56.079 knew you for those who have deceived themselves and those 847 00:48:56.119 --> 00:48:59.199 who have been exposed. The end is the same, right? 848 00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:00.929 I mean, if you, if you have deceived yourself, that 849 00:49:00.949 --> 00:49:03.130 you're in a relationship with God, that you're not, or 850 00:49:03.269 --> 00:49:05.800 if you, have been exposed as to not being in 851 00:49:05.820 --> 00:49:07.940 a relationship, the end is the same. You have chosen 852 00:49:08.019 --> 00:49:10.820 separation between you and God for whatever reason. And so 853 00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:13.260 I think that that sifting process is actually an act 854 00:49:13.300 --> 00:49:15.690 of grace for those who come through it and an 855 00:49:15.809 --> 00:49:21.340 act of elucidation. I mean, it is an exposing for 856 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:24.820 the people who come through it and cannot love God 857 00:49:24.980 --> 00:49:28.320 through it, cannot find the ability to love what is 858 00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:31.900 good about God, even though they're in pain and struggling 859 00:49:31.940 --> 00:49:35.090 with those things. I think that sifting process is a gift. 860 00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:37.550 One of the things we talked about in the poem, 861 00:49:37.590 --> 00:49:39.800 The Dark Night of the Soul, written by St. John 862 00:49:39.820 --> 00:49:41.900 of the Cross, and then his evaluations of it later, 863 00:49:41.940 --> 00:49:45.820 he explains that John of the Cross says, you know, 864 00:49:45.860 --> 00:49:49.889 this is necessary for maturity to go through this period 865 00:49:49.929 --> 00:49:53.730 where God, whatever you've held back from God, it's not 866 00:49:53.889 --> 00:49:55.889 meant to break you. It's meant to take you to 867 00:49:55.909 --> 00:49:58.630 the next step. The fact that it does break the 868 00:49:58.670 --> 00:50:01.809 faith of some people doesn't mean that God didn't mean 869 00:50:01.849 --> 00:50:05.010 it for good, that it is just time to expose 870 00:50:05.070 --> 00:50:07.730 those things that you're holding back from God so that 871 00:50:07.769 --> 00:50:10.650 you may grow closer to and have a more real 872 00:50:11.070 --> 00:50:15.949 reality-based relationship with them, maybe not one so strongly based 873 00:50:16.050 --> 00:50:19.250 on the perceived benefits that you're getting or the perceived 874 00:50:19.349 --> 00:50:22.710 closeness that you seem to have, that you believe God 875 00:50:22.750 --> 00:50:25.579 would not allow certain things to happen to you. And 876 00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:28.400 so it is, I think that sifting process is important 877 00:50:28.780 --> 00:50:31.619 and it's also heartbreaking because it breaks my heart as 878 00:50:31.659 --> 00:50:33.739 somebody who loves God and believes that Jesus is the 879 00:50:33.780 --> 00:50:36.000 truth of the universe and that living in accordance with 880 00:50:36.019 --> 00:50:38.800 that truth contributes to our flourishing and is a good, 881 00:50:39.769 --> 00:50:42.090 When I meet somebody and I say, why did you 882 00:50:42.110 --> 00:50:46.360 fall away? And they tell me, internally, I'm thinking, why 883 00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:52.360 didn't you just hold on? Why was he less important 884 00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.760 to you than whatever it was that ultimately broke you? 885 00:50:55.739 --> 00:50:59.219 Because I hear the same stories from the faithful that 886 00:50:59.260 --> 00:51:03.230 I hear from the fallen. And it really drives home 887 00:51:03.269 --> 00:51:06.829 the idea of how thankful I am for the grace 888 00:51:06.869 --> 00:51:10.170 of God. that to this point I have held on 889 00:51:10.210 -->

00:51:14.889 to him as hard as I have. And the sadness 890 00:51:14.929 --> 00:51:17.730 and seeing characters, which again, why I think silence is 891 00:51:17.769 --> 00:51:20.570 so disturbing for many Christians is because they fear that 892 00:51:20.610 --> 00:51:24.389 they would be Rodriguez, Ferreira, Kichijira. They believe that they 893 00:51:24.510 --> 00:51:27.239 fear that they would believe that they would fail and 894 00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:31.719 charging God with unfairness and just remain in this sort 895 00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:32.579 of broken state. 896 00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:38.289 You know, we've talked about over the years, the, problem 897 00:51:38.329 --> 00:51:39.389 of evil and suffering. 898 00:51:40.349 --> 00:51:42.760 And, you know, we were just talking about sifting. 899 00:51:42.380 --> 00:51:49.400 And how when people are struggling with doubt and disbelief, 900 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:55.039 that wrestling with that issue is really big for them. 901 00:51:55.119 --> 00:51:56.079 So how does this. 902 00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:01.320 Particular novel, Silence, bring out those ideas into the story? 903 00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:04.650 And by the way, even though, again, because we've been 904 00:52:05.030 --> 00:52:07.739 talking about on this podcast, The Odyssey, this has so 905 00:52:07.780 --> 00:52:15.480 many relevant topics to real contemporary situations now with unbelievers. 906 00:52:15.739 --> 00:52:18.460 I think it's a great book to invite a non-Christian 907 00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:19.110 friend to read. 908 00:52:20.389 --> 00:52:20.590 Yeah. 909 00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:24.130 So how do you talk about some of these things? 910 00:52:24.170 --> 00:52:26.510 Because that's the biggest thing that you're talking about. Of course, 911 00:52:27.210 --> 00:52:28.210 it's the problem of evil. 912 00:52:28.329 --> 00:52:28.849 It's doubt. 913 00:52:28.909 --> 00:52:31.250 It's both intellectual doubt. Sometimes it's emotional doubt. 914 00:52:31.630 --> 00:52:35.119 So how does all of that, you know, come together 915 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:36.920 in silence is something to think about. 916 00:52:37.699 --> 00:52:41.780 And it meant so much more when my son told 917 00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:46.019 me about his friend where he says, he has told 918 00:52:46.059 --> 00:52:47.679 me he has left the faith and one of the 919 00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:51.179 key reasons is the problem of evil and suffering. And 920 00:52:51.199 --> 00:52:55.809 in this context of the book, in this world of 921 00:52:56.130 --> 00:53:03.050 just terrible persecution, where you're seeing awful things, the priest 922 00:53:03.110 --> 00:53:08.750 are being forced to experience watching awful things. In my 923 00:53:09.030 --> 00:53:13.730 obvious distaste for where Rodriguez and Ferreira ultimately go as 924 00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:18.300 Catholic priests, I don't want it to be missed that 925 00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.159 Rodriguez tells himself all of the right things on this 926 00:53:21.219 --> 00:53:24.639 path to apostasy, which is a fascinating part of it. 927 00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:29.090 As he fights for his faith, he tells himself and 928 00:53:29.110 --> 00:53:32.449 he argues with the interpreter all of the right things. 929 00:53:34.329 --> 00:53:37.489 But he's watching things that are just breaking his heart, 930 00:53:37.530 --> 00:53:44.250 particularly the brutality against these innocent people and being told 931 00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:47.400 how pointless it all is. And it's in the midst 932 00:53:47.460 --> 00:53:51.280 of that that the translator raises up with him and 933 00:53:51.559 --> 00:53:58.039 directly challenges him with the idea that God is not there, 934 00:53:58.739 --> 00:54:01.510 that the problem of evil is a problem. He says 935 00:54:01.570 --> 00:54:04.880 to him, If it is true that God is really 936 00:54:04.980 --> 00:54:08.820 loving and merciful, how do you explain the fact that 937 00:54:08.860 --> 00:54:11.690 he gives so many trials and sufferings of all kinds 938 00:54:12.110 --> 00:54:15.409 to the man on his way to heaven? He is 939 00:54:15.630 --> 00:54:18.369 charging him with this idea that you have this idea 940 00:54:18.409 --> 00:54:21.349 of God and your idea of God is coming to 941 00:54:21.449 --> 00:54:28.019 die here in Japan. And you cannot deny that. that 942 00:54:28.360 --> 00:54:31.579 he ought to step in if he is everything that 943 00:54:31.619 --> 00:54:39.389 you say that he is. And as they increase the suffering, 944 00:54:40.050 --> 00:54:44.449 the actual agents of evil are increasing the suffering and 945 00:54:44.610 --> 00:54:47.989 evil around Rodriguez as the course of the book progresses, 946 00:54:48.630 --> 00:54:52.269 and yet they charge this on God. They say it 947 00:54:52.329 --> 00:54:55.289 is on him that this is allowed, because if he 948 00:54:55.329 --> 00:54:58.019 were what you say he is, He could stop us 949 00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:02.239 and he would stop us. So he's charged him at 950 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:04.940 that moment. And he even says when he comes back 951 00:55:05.019 --> 00:55:07.860 and Rodriguez tries to have a discussion with him, it's like, oh, 952 00:55:07.889 --> 00:55:11.449 so you're saying God created evil. God's responsible for evil, 953 00:55:11.489 --> 00:55:15.150 isn't it? Just more likely he's not there, right? And 954 00:55:16.110 --> 00:55:20.590 I see this struggle in so many young people, right? 955 00:55:20.650 --> 00:55:23.050 I mean, they look at the world. One of the 956 00:55:23.090 --> 00:55:25.429 most depressed, somebody who spent a lot of time of 957 00:55:25.769 --> 00:55:28.800 his life arguing that every human being has value and 958 00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:30.960 ought to be treated with dignity and respect, and that 959 00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:33.619 life is not just a good, but it is the 960 00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:38.300 good on which all other goods

will manifest themselves. Without life, 961 00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:41.360 we cannot enjoy love. Without life, we cannot enjoy the 962 00:55:41.449 --> 00:55:45.849 liberty to pursue our flourishing. Without life, we cannot enjoy community. 963 00:55:46.210 --> 00:55:48.929 I mean, none of the things, we can't enjoy reason, 964 00:55:48.989 --> 00:55:51.750 we can't enjoy poetry, we can't enjoy beauty. None of 965 00:55:51.789 --> 00:55:54.570 those things can be enjoyed without life. So life is 966 00:55:55.130 --> 00:55:57.329 under the view that I approach from, and under the 967 00:55:57.389 --> 00:56:01.719 Christian view, the first primary good that we get to enjoy. 968 00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:06.539 God gave us life, and it's good. And that's not true. 969 00:56:07.300 --> 00:56:09.199 For so many people today, when you talk to them, 970 00:56:10.059 --> 00:56:13.000 there's what we call an antinatalist view that is growing 971 00:56:13.340 --> 00:56:14.719 in young people today, where they don't even want to 972 00:56:14.739 --> 00:56:16.619 have kids. You ask them, why would I ever bring 973 00:56:16.659 --> 00:56:20.630 kids into this horrible world? Life is awful. No, it's not. 974 00:56:20.650 --> 00:56:23.260 I told you life is awful. Where did you learn this? 975 00:56:23.469 --> 00:56:26.599 But they're so sensitive to the evil around them. And 976 00:56:26.619 --> 00:56:30.960 there's obviously an open conduit for that evil, information about 977 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:32.599 that evil to flow to them in ways that has 978 00:56:32.639 --> 00:56:35.840 never existed before. They're more aware of how awful the 979 00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:38.239 world is and how terrible things that people are doing are. 980 00:56:38.679 --> 00:56:42.420 And just like the characters in this book, they oftentimes 981 00:56:42.539 --> 00:56:46.789 level the charge towards God. If he were there, he 982 00:56:46.829 --> 00:56:50.760 would not allow this. even though he's not actually doing it, 983 00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:55.300 he's held responsible for it because he should step in 984 00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:57.340 and stop it. And since he doesn't step in and 985 00:56:57.360 --> 00:56:59.900 stop it, because if he were all good, he would, 986 00:56:59.920 --> 00:57:02.900 then he must not be there. And that is the 987 00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:05.340 root of the problem of evil in this book as 988 00:57:05.429 --> 00:57:09.030 it's introduced. They are responsible for the horrible evil and 989 00:57:09.070 --> 00:57:12.889 suffering that's going on, but they lay the charge on 990 00:57:12.989 --> 00:57:15.650 God's feet and say if he were there and if 991 00:57:15.690 --> 00:57:17.650 he were the merciful God that you say he was, 992 00:57:18.190 --> 00:57:22.780 This could not happen. And since this is happening, your 993 00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:27.619 concept of God is clearly not real. And it's part of, again, 994 00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.619 this attack on the faith of the priest to break 995 00:57:30.659 --> 00:57:34.519 him and to ultimately use him as the display. At 996 00:57:34.619 --> 00:57:39.059 one point, they say Rodriguez is the last priest left 997 00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:41.570 in Japan, and they will break him. 998 00:57:43.210 --> 00:57:45.050 I think people.... 999 00:57:45.650 --> 00:57:47.639 And maybe even Christians might struggle so you can help 1000 00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:53.139 the Christian apologist with understanding the difference between the logical 1001 00:57:53.260 --> 00:57:59.380 problem of evil and like evidential problems, like the problem 1002 00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.969 of gratuitous evil. I mean, evil that's witnessed, it seems 1003 00:58:03.030 --> 00:58:06.750 to us for no reason at all. So help people 1004 00:58:06.889 --> 00:58:09.969 think through, well, what's the differences and then how should 1005 00:58:10.010 --> 00:58:14.139 they respond to that biblically? Like what is, a Christian 1006 00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:17.929 way of thinking about these two different problems. 1007 00:58:17.949 --> 00:58:21.030 The logical problem of evil is interesting because it is almost, 1008 00:58:21.110 --> 00:58:24.130 is not, there's almost no one that debates it anymore 1009 00:58:24.190 --> 00:58:27.230 at an academic level. Ever since Alvin planning wrote his book, God, 1010 00:58:27.269 --> 00:58:31.119 freedom and evil. The logical problem of evil though, states 1011 00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:36.920 that there is a conflict. There's a contradictory relationship between 1012 00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:40.949 a set of data existing. So the, So those would 1013 00:58:41.010 --> 00:58:45.309 be like at a basic sense, I heard the problem 1014 00:58:45.349 --> 00:58:48.650 of evil explained recently by a couple of guys in 1015 00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:52.340 a podcast who were, one's a master student at Oxford, 1016 00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:55.820 the other is a PhD student at Princeton, who was 1017 00:58:55.840 --> 00:58:58.440 an atheist, who actually just a couple of days ago 1018 00:58:58.659 --> 00:59:00.860 came out publicly that he is now a professing Catholic. 1019 00:59:01.590 --> 00:59:03.989 So he has come to Christ, who for years had 1020 00:59:04.010 --> 00:59:07.010 been online arguing against Christianity and against the faith. But 1021 00:59:07.130 --> 00:59:08.489 one of the things that led him to this was 1022 00:59:08.530 --> 00:59:10.860 actually a discussion of the problem of evil. And they 1023 00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:14.269 say at its base, like the basic question that comes 1024 00:59:14.329 --> 00:59:18.070 out of this is, if God, then why evil? And 1025 00:59:18.090 --> 00:59:19.909 you can extend that if it is true that God 1026 00:59:19.969 --> 00:59:21.789 is really loving and merciful, how do you explain the 1027 00:59:21.809 --> 00:59:23.510 fact that he gives so many trials and sufferings, which 1028 00:59:23.570 --> 00:59:26.269 is the question

that's put to Rodriguez in the book. 1029 00:59:26.610 --> 00:59:30.440 Simply put, as an all-loving, all-powerful God exists, then why 1030 00:59:30.480 --> 00:59:33.059 does so much suffering exist? So if you have God 1031 00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:36.300 is all-loving as point one, or data point one, data 1032 00:59:36.380 --> 00:59:40.900 point two, God is all-powerful, and three, evil and suffering exist, 1033 00:59:41.260 --> 00:59:43.570 this is a very basic form of a logical problem 1034 00:59:43.610 --> 00:59:46.760 of evil. But what you would say is, Three is 1035 00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:50.760 just an observation of data. Evil and suffering exist. Everybody 1036 00:59:50.940 --> 00:59:55.199 knows that evil and suffering exist. So then one of 1037 00:59:55.239 --> 00:59:57.659 the other two can't be true. It can't be true 1038 00:59:57.679 --> 00:59:59.280 that God is all loving or it can't be true 1039 00:59:59.300 --> 01:00:01.969 that God is all powerful. And so there's a logical 1040 01:00:02.070 --> 01:00:05.309 contradiction between those three things all being able to be 1041 01:00:05.389 --> 01:00:08.030 true at the same time. And God, freedom, and evil 1042 01:00:08.110 --> 01:00:10.809 planting us solved it. And I mean solved it so 1043 01:00:10.849 --> 01:00:12.969 much that I have a book by the Cambridge Companion 1044 01:00:12.989 --> 01:00:15.500 to the Problem of Evil called that has been edited 1045 01:00:15.559 --> 01:00:18.940 by Chad Meister and Paul Moser. And in there, two 1046 01:00:18.980 --> 01:00:21.440 different atheists say in one form or another, one of 1047 01:00:21.480 --> 01:00:25.119 them just says flat out, the logical problem of evil 1048 01:00:25.219 --> 01:00:29.679 is dead. Plantinga killed it. Because what Plantinga said is 1049 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:34.980 that there's no logical inconsistency because he says that if 1050 01:00:36.119 --> 01:00:40.349 it's possible that any possible universe exists where God has 1051 01:00:40.429 --> 01:00:43.289 morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil and suffering to exist, 1052 01:00:43.840 --> 01:00:46.780 maybe to produce free will, love, empathy, sympathy, any kind 1053 01:00:46.820 --> 01:00:49.099 of thing. If there are goods that can be produced 1054 01:00:49.179 --> 01:00:53.360 enough to balance evil and suffering in any possible universe, 1055 01:00:53.909 --> 01:00:58.309 then they don't exist in a logical contradiction. There is 1056 01:00:58.369 --> 01:01:01.230 no logical contradiction. And so through that, he says, if 1057 01:01:01.329 --> 01:01:05.170 God has morally sufficient reasons in any possible universe, even 1058 01:01:05.210 --> 01:01:07.570 if it's not our actual universe, then there is no 1059 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:11.699 actual logical contradiction because logical contradictions would extend to all 1060 01:01:11.739 --> 01:01:15.380 possible universes. And so the atheists even say, yeah, he's right. 1061 01:01:15.940 --> 01:01:18.909 It's dead. So we get to the evidential problem of evil, 1062 01:01:19.130 --> 01:01:20.929 which is what you hear the most. And you mentioned 1063 01:01:21.010 --> 01:01:23.929 one of the biggest ones, the problem of gratuitous evil. 1064 01:01:24.750 --> 01:01:28.130 The evidential problem of evil says there is no logical 1065 01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:32.469 contradiction between the existence of an all-loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God 1066 01:01:32.969 --> 01:01:35.909 and the existence of evil and suffering. But the level 1067 01:01:35.949 --> 01:01:39.010 of evil that we see and the level of suffering 1068 01:01:39.050 --> 01:01:43.280 that we see, given the reality of evil, Theism is 1069 01:01:43.340 --> 01:01:47.019 probably not true, even if it is logically consistent. And 1070 01:01:47.059 --> 01:01:49.579 that's the evidential problem. And so what they do is 1071 01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:53.239 they point to sometimes very specific and awful things. One 1072 01:01:53.260 --> 01:01:57.090 of them, and warning to any sensitive listeners before I 1073 01:01:57.119 --> 01:01:59.929 say this, you got about 10 seconds. You don't want 1074 01:01:59.949 --> 01:02:01.670 to listen to the next 10 seconds. One of them 1075 01:02:01.730 --> 01:02:05.909 would be a forest fire and a young fawn, a deer, 1076 01:02:06.769 --> 01:02:09.809 burning to death and then dying this torturous, awful death 1077 01:02:09.889 --> 01:02:13.280 over three days. while it survives these burns just long 1078 01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:17.329 enough to experience the torture of having died of burns. 1079 01:02:18.110 --> 01:02:21.010 And they say that kind of evil cannot be explained 1080 01:02:22.769 --> 01:02:26.389 by God allowing it for good. And they'll point to 1081 01:02:26.449 --> 01:02:29.130 very specific things like this. I think Stephen Fry talks 1082 01:02:29.150 --> 01:02:31.610 about the bot fly and how it gets into the 1083 01:02:31.780 --> 01:02:35.159 eyes of children. And they'll look at something and they'll say, sure, 1084 01:02:35.260 --> 01:02:38.019 in theory, you can say it's not logically inconsistent for 1085 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:42.389 an all-knowing, all-powerful, all loving God to exist at the 1086 01:02:42.429 --> 01:02:44.809 same time as evil and suffering. But what we're talking 1087 01:02:44.849 --> 01:02:48.750 about is evil and suffering on a scope that defies explanation. 1088 01:02:49.449 --> 01:02:51.929 It's impossible for you to say there's goods that could 1089 01:02:51.989 --> 01:02:54.590 come from that. And that's where they thought the gratuitous 1090 01:02:54.679 --> 01:02:57.139 evil goes beyond just the evil that happens to human 1091 01:02:57.179 --> 01:02:59.460 beings or the evil that other human beings do to 1092 01:02:59.500 --> 01:03:02.059 each other. But it's the evil that happens, the natural 1093 01:03:02.179 --> 01:03:05.510 evil that happens in the world where no human agent 1094 01:03:05.550

--> 01:03:09.010 has done anything wrong, but that humans and animals both 1095 01:03:09.130 --> 01:03:13.349 suffer horribly for having lived in a world where there's 1096 01:03:13.409 --> 01:03:16.289 no explanation for what goods could possibly come from that. 1097 01:03:16.510 --> 01:03:20.539 And so that's the evidential problem, and that's the problem 1098 01:03:20.579 --> 01:03:23.519 that's being presented there. It's not a logically inconsistent problem. 1099 01:03:23.619 --> 01:03:28.500 It's saying, look, you're probably wrong about God, because look 1100 01:03:28.539 --> 01:03:32.969 how horrible the world is. And sure, there's no logical inconsistency, 1101 01:03:33.150 --> 01:03:38.030 but And, you know, in vast is probably you're probably 1102 01:03:38.050 --> 01:03:40.159 is more likely that he's not there than he's there, 1103 01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:43.159 given how awful the world is. Now, there's several what 1104 01:03:43.179 --> 01:03:45.619 we call theodicies to answer that. And some of them 1105 01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:50.199 work more successfully than others. What's called the skeptical theism 1106 01:03:50.280 --> 01:03:54.050 response to that would just be to say that you 1107 01:03:54.110 --> 01:03:57.250 have there is never any confidence that we can have 1108 01:03:57.349 --> 01:04:00.369 that you would know that. on balance, the goods that 1109 01:04:00.389 --> 01:04:03.070 God can produce versus the evil that he's allowing. I'm 1110 01:04:03.110 --> 01:04:06.210 skeptical that this is even a good argument against God 1111 01:04:06.289 --> 01:04:09.380 because you lack the ability to know those sorts of things, 1112 01:04:09.460 --> 01:04:12.960 particularly given the truth of theism. Let's say we grant 1113 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:16.079 the truth of theism, then you grant something like an afterlife. 1114 01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:19.510 And in that afterlife, if we're talking about an eternal, 1115 01:04:20.030 --> 01:04:24.199 an unfolding relationship with God that lasts an eternity, where 1116 01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:27.989 you just are living in this age of goods, all goods, 1117 01:04:28.570 --> 01:04:31.909 and all evil has been reconciled, it's just not possible 1118 01:04:31.969 --> 01:04:34.300 for you to balance us, to be able to on 1119 01:04:34.340 --> 01:04:38.699 balance say, the suffering that we see could not possibly... 1120 01:04:38.489 --> 01:04:41.309 possibly be balanced by God. And that's the sort of 1121 01:04:41.349 --> 01:04:44.809 skeptical theist approach. And it really undermines the credibility of 1122 01:04:44.849 --> 01:04:48.010 the problem from evil. But you see there in the 1123 01:04:48.409 --> 01:04:50.380 issues that I have is the problem of evil. And 1124 01:04:50.500 --> 01:04:52.699 it's even brought up by Rodriguez at one point as 1125 01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:57.719 he's struggling with this is you are blaming God for 1126 01:04:57.820 --> 01:04:58.960 your evil. 1127 01:04:59.380 --> 01:04:59.539 Right. 1128 01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:02.559 And you see this. I've been asked. I ask these 1129 01:05:02.659 --> 01:05:05.519 weird thought experiments on campuses all the time as people 1130 01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:08.260 are trying to justify the way we treat other human beings, 1131 01:05:08.300 --> 01:05:11.079 particularly through the practice of abortion or medical research where 1132 01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:14.000 we destroy early human life. And they will raise these 1133 01:05:14.139 --> 01:05:16.139 these things up where they would still put me in 1134 01:05:16.179 --> 01:05:19.280 a position where you have to kill them or you 1135 01:05:19.300 --> 01:05:21.489 have to kill that person. Like, I don't have to 1136 01:05:21.530 --> 01:05:24.489 kill anybody. And I am not the evil person by 1137 01:05:24.829 --> 01:05:28.309 either making a choice, a triage choice and trying to 1138 01:05:28.369 --> 01:05:31.389 save one life. when I cannot save both lives, nor 1139 01:05:31.429 --> 01:05:33.510 would I be an evil person for not saving either 1140 01:05:33.570 --> 01:05:35.650 life because I don't want to be morally condemned for 1141 01:05:35.690 --> 01:05:39.820 being a murderer in those circumstances. The evil person is 1142 01:05:40.179 --> 01:05:42.639 the person who brings the agent who's bringing the evil 1143 01:05:42.679 --> 01:05:45.880 to the situation and forcing me to respond to their evil. 1144 01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:50.119 And in this particular space that you're operating in, it's 1145 01:05:50.179 --> 01:05:53.699 bizarre as you see it unfold as they do horrible 1146 01:05:53.860 --> 01:05:56.949 evil atrocities on a massive scale and then say, if 1147 01:05:56.989 --> 01:06:00.250 God were good, he would stop us. Because what a 1148 01:06:00.409 --> 01:06:04.050 weird world would we live in where God did independently 1149 01:06:04.110 --> 01:06:06.780 go and stop every evil person from doing the agent. 1150 01:06:06.820 --> 01:06:09.559 It would be great, but we're getting to a world 1151 01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:12.400 like that. And many of the theodicies talk about that idea. 1152 01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:15.210 He will reconcile evil. He will deal with all of it. 1153 01:06:15.219 --> 01:06:17.119 He'll just deal with all of it at once. He 1154 01:06:17.159 --> 01:06:19.219 has dealt with the judgment for evil from the person 1155 01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:21.380 of Christ. He will deal with evil when he comes 1156 01:06:21.469 --> 01:06:24.449 back to reconcile all of creation to himself. And at 1157 01:06:24.510 --> 01:06:27.929 that point, the goods that will occur were on balance, 1158 01:06:28.230 --> 01:06:30.730 be worth the evil that we endured so that we 1159 01:06:30.769 --> 01:06:33.110 could find this time that people can find their way 1160 01:06:33.190 --> 01:06:35.639 into that eternal relationship with God through the grace and 1161 01:06:35.659 --> 01:06:40.360 mercy of Jesus

Christ. And so that skeptical theism approach 1162 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:42.840 does undermine the power of the problem of evil because 1163 01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:45.119 it doesn't say, I've got a direct answer of the 1164 01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:48.750 exact goods that come into play that can explain why 1165 01:06:48.809 --> 01:06:51.530 God would allow these things to happen. What it says is, 1166 01:06:52.380 --> 01:06:54.880 Neither you nor I nor anyone else can comprehend the 1167 01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:56.719 mind of God and the kind of agency that we're 1168 01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:01.039 talking about, nor can we ever measure goods versus evil 1169 01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:04.199 and come up with a determinate position that says that 1170 01:07:04.260 --> 01:07:06.539 there is no way God could exist and allow these 1171 01:07:06.579 --> 01:07:10.400 things to happen. Because we just can't possibly know the 1172 01:07:10.460 --> 01:07:13.119 goods that can come on balance against the evil that 1173 01:07:13.179 --> 01:07:18.150 is allowed or understand his motivations at all. And you 1174 01:07:18.210 --> 01:07:21.230 see that unfold. And he, Rodriguez, resisted. I mean, he 1175 01:07:21.269 --> 01:07:24.510 resisted in the book where he says, no, you, the 1176 01:07:24.590 --> 01:07:27.090 reason that Christianity will not take is not because there's 1177 01:07:27.130 --> 01:07:30.289 something wrong with the Japanese. It's because you keep pulling 1178 01:07:30.329 --> 01:07:32.730 the shoots up. It's not the soil of Japan that's 1179 01:07:32.750 --> 01:07:35.909 the problem. It's you keep destroying what has been planted. 1180 01:07:36.300 --> 01:07:40.280 You are the evil here, not God. But he still, 1181 01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:43.840 you see it eroding him. Even as I said, he 1182 01:07:43.960 --> 01:07:46.500 says all the right things on his road to apostasy. 1183 01:07:46.989 --> 01:07:52.030 but the fight erodes his will. Yeah. 1184 01:07:52.349 --> 01:07:55.440 And I think this, you know, the problem of evil 1185 01:07:55.579 --> 01:07:58.800 and suffering that's undermining the faith of the priest. I mean, 1186 01:07:58.820 --> 01:08:04.440 that definitely is prominent in the Scorsese film. 1187 01:08:04.900 --> 01:08:07.940 And so how do they, in. 1188 01:08:08.239 --> 01:08:12.949 Terms of the priests themselves, like how do they start unraveling, 1189 01:08:13.150 --> 01:08:14.190 I guess, because of this? 1190 01:08:17.289 --> 01:08:24.149 Rodriguez struggles with the silence of God in more than 1191 01:08:24.189 --> 01:08:27.869 just the idea that I'm not hearing God's voice. And 1192 01:08:27.890 --> 01:08:30.529 I think this is fascinating because I've actually heard people 1193 01:08:30.609 --> 01:08:32.939 say this when I do. I've done multiple interviews with 1194 01:08:32.979 --> 01:08:35.899 people about where I've recorded interviews, some of them I've 1195 01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:38.460 written down, some of them by

virtue of them granting 1196 01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:40.279 the interview, they wouldn't allow me to record them or 1197 01:08:40.300 --> 01:08:42.000 write anything down. They just wanted to talk to me. 1198 01:08:42.859 --> 01:08:46.470 Where people have said a similar thing. For Rodriguez, when 1199 01:08:46.489 --> 01:08:50.369 he sees there's two instances of martyrdom, three, let's say 1200 01:08:50.409 --> 01:08:53.760 three different instances of martyrdom that he sees. And one 1201 01:08:53.779 --> 01:08:55.659 of the things he talks about is not just God 1202 01:08:55.720 --> 01:08:58.359 not being there, and not just the silence. And what 1203 01:08:58.380 --> 01:09:02.359 I mean by silence is he doesn't feel God, doesn't 1204 01:09:02.460 --> 01:09:06.739 hear him, can't sense his movement and what's going on. 1205 01:09:07.430 --> 01:09:11.390 But he talks about the indifference of the world. He 1206 01:09:11.430 --> 01:09:14.970 talks about the cicadas are still singing. They were singing 1207 01:09:15.029 --> 01:09:18.270 the way they were singing before that man was murdered. 1208 01:09:19.029 --> 01:09:21.130 They were singing the way they were singing before those 1209 01:09:21.170 --> 01:09:25.430 people drowned. The cicadas sound the same. The waves are 1210 01:09:25.470 --> 01:09:29.840 hitting the coast the exact same. The birds are singing 1211 01:09:29.899 --> 01:09:32.939 the same song. The sun is out. How can it 1212 01:09:32.979 --> 01:09:38.000 be possible that such horrible things have happened? And God's 1213 01:09:38.100 --> 01:09:43.720 created order is so indifferent to it. It's not just 1214 01:09:43.739 --> 01:09:48.350 that God is silent. There's just nothing there at all. 1215 01:09:48.920 --> 01:09:52.520 to testify that something awful just happened. And with Rodriguez, 1216 01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:55.199 and this is where I think the charge of the 1217 01:09:56.000 --> 01:10:00.670 Japanese Christian academics that say Rodriguez was never faithful. He 1218 01:10:00.750 --> 01:10:04.729 admits at one point in his testimony, this is not 1219 01:10:04.829 --> 01:10:08.829 the martyrdom I wanted. I mean, as he evaluates that 1220 01:10:08.850 --> 01:10:10.810 this is the martyrdom that he's headed towards on the 1221 01:10:10.850 --> 01:10:15.739 path that he's on, will the cicadas keep singing? Will 1222 01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:19.899 the waves keep crashing? Will the bird songs continue? Will 1223 01:10:19.930 --> 01:10:21.909 the world be as indifferent to my death as it 1224 01:10:21.949 --> 01:10:25.329 was to the death of these other martyrs? And then 1225 01:10:25.350 --> 01:10:28.770 he questions, is this the martyrdom that I seek? Is 1226 01:10:28.829 --> 01:10:32.840 this the true martyrdom of Christ? And his next question is, 1227 01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:35.819 did all I want all along was to be a 1228 01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:39.739 saint and to be worshipped? Am I capable of having 1229 01:10:39.779 -->

01:10:43.460 a martyrdom like this? And that's the question that you 1230 01:10:43.520 --> 01:10:48.010 see at the root of it. Ferreira and Rodriguez is 1231 01:10:48.050 --> 01:10:51.649 they discuss the end of their faith. The moment where 1232 01:10:51.670 --> 01:10:53.829 they was, one has already given it up and one 1233 01:10:53.869 --> 01:10:56.470 is on the path to it. It is the inability 1234 01:10:56.510 --> 01:11:01.420 to reconcile the life that they're living with their expectation. 1235 01:11:01.439 --> 01:11:05.960 I know it's kind of similar in the film. 1236 01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:10.119 It has such hopelessness to me. And however, I saw 1237 01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:13.939 it with somebody else who's a Christian. who has friends 1238 01:11:13.960 --> 01:11:16.739 from Japan and they didn't see it as hopelessly as 1239 01:11:16.880 --> 01:11:20.020 I did this film and especially the priest, but you know, 1240 01:11:20.239 --> 01:11:24.659 why do they betray God? In other words, to stop 1241 01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:29.119 this torture, you talked about earlier, the way that you 1242 01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:33.989 were to prove that you were, you know, deciding that 1243 01:11:34.029 --> 01:11:36.350 you were no longer going to, you were abandoning your 1244 01:11:36.390 --> 01:11:40.149 faith was to, to step on God. the image of God, 1245 01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:42.329 you know, some representation of God, you're supposed to step 1246 01:11:42.390 --> 01:11:45.250 on those and, you know, say that you're renouncing the faith. 1247 01:11:45.829 --> 01:11:49.979 So what about their disappointment in God drives them to 1248 01:11:49.989 --> 01:11:50.720 this decision? 1249 01:11:50.739 --> 01:11:54.170 And I think the two of them are different when 1250 01:11:54.210 --> 01:11:58.369 you talk about the two Catholic priests. I mean, Kichijiro 1251 01:11:58.430 --> 01:12:00.649 just does not want to be heard. I mean, I 1252 01:12:00.689 --> 01:12:02.350 think his character is pretty understand. 1253 01:12:02.390 --> 01:12:02.810 He's a coward. 1254 01:12:02.829 --> 01:12:04.250 I'm talking about the priest, right? 1255 01:12:04.430 --> 01:12:06.479 Yeah, but the priest, yeah. So when you get to him, 1256 01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:08.729 when they get to them, they have two different. And 1257 01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:11.520 going back to the one point where you say, you know, 1258 01:12:11.539 --> 01:12:14.640 it feels so hopeless. But I do think that Endo, 1259 01:12:14.939 --> 01:12:18.260 who obviously struggled with his own faith, he gives this 1260 01:12:18.319 --> 01:12:22.479 from the outset. heroic examples of martyrs who died in 1261 01:12:22.520 --> 01:12:26.399 the faith and of the Japanese villagers who sang to God. 1262 01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:28.199 Yes, they do portray that. 1263 01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:31.560 They're forcibly drowned in the sea and all this stuff, 1264 01:12:31.619 --> 01:12:34.050 and they're still claiming the faith. 1265 01:12:34.750 --> 01:12:36.869 And he even writes, but every one of them was 1266 01:12:36.909 --> 01:12:39.949 strengthened by God's grace, showed remarkable courage, and even asked 1267 01:12:39.970 --> 01:12:42.619 to be tortured, firmly declaring that they would never abandon God. 1268 01:12:42.930 --> 01:12:45.729 their holy faith so he gives us examples of people 1269 01:12:46.109 --> 01:12:49.270 throughout the story he litters the story with people who 1270 01:12:49.369 --> 01:12:53.090 seem imperfect but who never but even even one of 1271 01:12:53.130 --> 01:12:56.619 the priests uh adam driver played this particular priest i 1272 01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:01.380 believe in the movie uh but as they are they 1273 01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:03.960 are they're killing some of the villagers in front of 1274 01:13:04.039 --> 01:13:07.850 adam driver's character that priest and they tell him If 1275 01:13:07.909 --> 01:13:10.609 you apostatize, we won't do what we're doing to them. 1276 01:13:10.989 --> 01:13:12.729 They're dropping them and they take them out in a 1277 01:13:12.770 --> 01:13:14.569 boat and drop them into the water to let them 1278 01:13:14.630 --> 01:13:18.850 sink to the bottom. And he dies, not apostatizing, but 1279 01:13:18.949 --> 01:13:21.720 running out into the water himself, trying to save them. 1280 01:13:21.810 --> 01:13:24.800 And he ultimately drowns with them. And it's that moment 1281 01:13:24.880 --> 01:13:29.479 that the translator turns to Rodriguez and says, you're a fraud. 1282 01:13:29.880 --> 01:13:33.939 That's a priest, right? You're going to apostatize when this 1283 01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:35.899 whole thing is over because if you were like him, 1284 01:13:35.939 --> 01:13:39.220 you would already be dead. You know, that guy is 1285 01:13:39.260 --> 01:13:41.720 a true priest. He ran in the water after them. 1286 01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:44.460 So that's where I say the hopelessness. I feel like 1287 01:13:44.939 --> 01:13:49.319 Endo gives us people to show this isn't necessary. What 1288 01:13:49.350 --> 01:13:52.689 these guys are doing is not necessary. They're talking themselves 1289 01:13:52.729 --> 01:13:55.109 into it. And there's two lines. One of them I've 1290 01:13:55.170 --> 01:14:00.350 already touched on is that Rodriguez had a vision for 1291 01:14:00.409 --> 01:14:02.750 what it would mean to be a glorious priest. 1292 01:14:03.869 --> 01:14:04.010 Right. 1293 01:14:04.810 --> 01:14:06.930 He talks about how he sought the face of Christ 1294 01:14:06.949 --> 01:14:09.949 his whole life. He was excited. He knew from the moment, 1295 01:14:09.979 --> 01:14:12.220 he said, the moment that we set forth from Japan, 1296 01:14:12.529 --> 01:14:15.079 we knew how this ended. We knew it ended in imprisonment. 1297 01:14:15.359 --> 01:14:17.800 We knew it ended in martyrdom. And he wanted a 1298 01:14:17.899 --> 01:14:22.079 glorious martyrdom. He wanted a letter written back to the 1299

01:14:22.140 --> 01:14:28.199 Portuguese missionaries that he came from saying that Rodriguez died faithful, 1300 01:14:28.300 --> 01:14:31.859 like they'd heard and read from Ferrer's letters earlier about 1301 01:14:31.899 --> 01:14:34.659 those faithful witnesses that I just talked about. That was 1302 01:14:34.680 --> 01:14:37.869 what he was looking for. And as he sees people 1303 01:14:37.930 --> 01:14:42.189 dying and God not caring, he just begins to struggle. Also, 1304 01:14:42.210 --> 01:14:46.489 I think he, it's difficult to see if he, he 1305 01:14:47.210 --> 01:14:50.250 did not seem to love those people he was trying 1306 01:14:50.289 --> 01:14:55.359 to reach. Uh, he, he, he condemns them oftentimes their dirtiness, 1307 01:14:55.460 --> 01:14:59.590 their backwardness, their need for a leader. Um, Even as 1308 01:14:59.630 --> 01:15:02.350 they die martyrs, something that they did that he can't 1309 01:15:02.430 --> 01:15:05.109 possibly do by the time the story's over. Even as 1310 01:15:05.210 --> 01:15:08.130 they give their life for their faith, he condemns them 1311 01:15:08.210 --> 01:15:11.850 as having lived, you know, hard lives. It was easy 1312 01:15:11.890 --> 01:15:14.409 for them, easier maybe for them to be martyrs because 1313 01:15:14.449 --> 01:15:16.970 their lives were so hard and so difficult anyway. And 1314 01:15:16.989 --> 01:15:18.810 they had so little and they lived in these little 1315 01:15:18.850 --> 01:15:22.029 huts and they wore these rags. What really did they lose? 1316 01:15:22.689 --> 01:15:26.399 And so as he on balance struggles, you see him 1317 01:15:26.439 --> 01:15:29.550 keep coming back to this concept of Judas. that Judas 1318 01:15:29.590 --> 01:15:35.380 was treated unfairly and that Jesus is dealing with him unfairly, 1319 01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:37.560 putting him in a position where everything that he saw 1320 01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:40.279 and everything that he hoped for is not coming out 1321 01:15:40.340 --> 01:15:43.039 the way that he did. It's not disbelief. Actually, for him, 1322 01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:47.329 unlike Ferreira, for him, he actually believes that he hears 1323 01:15:47.409 --> 01:15:50.869 God tell him, he hears Jesus tell him to apostatize 1324 01:15:50.949 --> 01:15:53.529 and to trample. And this is where I've actually seen 1325 01:15:53.550 --> 01:15:57.810 a Jesuit priest say, write an article trying to defend 1326 01:15:57.890 --> 01:16:02.399 Rodriguez's apostasy by saying it's possible he believed he was 1327 01:16:02.439 --> 01:16:05.100 being obedient to God. And I think that's fine if 1328 01:16:05.140 --> 01:16:06.699 you want to make that case because you as a 1329 01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:09.680 Jesuit feel for him or empathize with him in some way, 1330 01:16:10.060 --> 01:16:12.270 or because you just don't want the Jesuit priest to 1331 01:16:12.310 --> 01:16:14.470 have failed in the way it is clear that this 1332 01:16:14.529 --> 01:16:17.220 guy failed and that the guy that he's based on, 1333 01:16:17.250 --> 01:16:21.659 the Italian father that he's based on, failed. But If 1334 01:16:21.699 --> 01:16:23.659 that were true, we would not have had the story 1335 01:16:23.720 --> 01:16:27.420 littered with how Jesus told Judas to go and do 1336 01:16:27.460 --> 01:16:29.000 what he was going to do. We've been laying the 1337 01:16:29.060 --> 01:16:33.359 groundwork for this moment through the whole story. This does 1338 01:16:33.420 --> 01:16:35.920 not appear to me when you read it, Jesus saying, 1339 01:16:36.380 --> 01:16:38.279 do this because I want you to do it. I'm 1340 01:16:38.350 --> 01:16:39.729 commanding you to do it. And this is what I 1341 01:16:39.770 --> 01:16:42.930 would do if I were here, is Jesus turning finally 1342 01:16:42.989 --> 01:16:45.289 to Judas and saying, go do what you got to 1343 01:16:45.329 --> 01:16:47.930 do and get it over with. Because we've been led 1344 01:16:47.949 --> 01:16:50.729 to this moment with his wrestling over Judas. But that 1345 01:16:50.810 --> 01:16:54.069 wrestling for him is born out of this disappointment that 1346 01:16:54.130 --> 01:16:57.069 the martyrdom that he was seeking is not ultimately the 1347 01:16:57.130 --> 01:17:01.699 martyrdom that he'll find. It is a meaningless, witnessless martyrdom 1348 01:17:02.060 --> 01:17:04.739 that will be met with the indifference of both God 1349 01:17:04.779 --> 01:17:07.579 and his creation. So why follow it to its end? 1350 01:17:07.979 --> 01:17:10.130 And I think telling of this, as I said, I 1351 01:17:10.149 --> 01:17:12.770 don't think he's so caught up in himself that during 1352 01:17:12.789 --> 01:17:17.000 the last day is, He is struggling with this in prison, 1353 01:17:17.060 --> 01:17:20.319 and he hears this prisoner snoring. He complains about the snoring, 1354 01:17:20.539 --> 01:17:22.779 even at one point saying, here I am wrestling with 1355 01:17:22.800 --> 01:17:24.859 these great things, and God has placed me in this 1356 01:17:24.899 --> 01:17:27.710 place with this idiot, basically, who is snoring and interrupting it. 1357 01:17:28.270 --> 01:17:31.369 And he finds out from Ferreira and from the interpreter 1358 01:17:31.390 --> 01:17:33.890 who come to tell him, you think that's snoring? That's 1359 01:17:33.930 --> 01:17:40.390 not snoring. That's Japanese Christians being tortured right outside. You're 1360 01:17:40.449 --> 01:17:44.449 hearing their moaning. He was so consumed by himself that 1361 01:17:44.489 --> 01:17:47.869 he couldn't even identify people who were being tortured in 1362 01:17:48.029 --> 01:17:52.520 order to break his will. You're just griping about the snoring. 1363 01:17:52.560 --> 01:17:55.260 It's like, it's not snoring. And so you reach this 1364 01:17:55.359 --> 01:17:59.859 place where he is broken out of disappointment. Ferreira's disappointment 1365 01:17:59.899 --> 01:18:02.170 is different. For Ferreira,

his disappointment is grounded in the 1366 01:18:02.229 --> 01:18:05.659 idea that that he believes the Japanese can never know Christ, 1367 01:18:06.140 --> 01:18:09.079 and that that's been the 20 years that he's worked 1368 01:18:09.119 --> 01:18:10.800 among them has led him to this point where he 1369 01:18:10.819 --> 01:18:14.260 realized everything he did that he thought was of significance 1370 01:18:14.300 --> 01:18:18.140 has been undone because they can't be true Christians. There's 1371 01:18:18.180 --> 01:18:21.720 something about them that they just can't possibly be true Christians. Again, 1372 01:18:22.020 --> 01:18:24.579 you can't say that you love the people that you're 1373 01:18:24.600 --> 01:18:26.600 trying to reach and then at the same time turn 1374 01:18:26.619 --> 01:18:28.619 around and say they're just incapable of the kind of 1375 01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:33.210 sophisticated spiritual thought that would lead them to Christ. They're 1376 01:18:33.229 --> 01:18:36.420 just a bad field to spread the gospel of Christ into. 1377 01:18:36.439 --> 01:18:39.760 So that's why you have Japanese Christians looking back at 1378 01:18:39.800 --> 01:18:42.560 them now and saying, Endo's portrayal of these priests is 1379 01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:46.930 just verification. They weren't great guys. They were something deeply 1380 01:18:46.989 --> 01:18:50.689 flawed about their relationship with God that's exposed through those trials. 1381 01:18:50.729 --> 01:18:55.310 And with Ferrara, a historical character, absolutely really went through this. 1382 01:18:55.409 --> 01:18:58.449 And the man that Rodriguez is based on also did 1383 01:18:58.489 --> 01:19:02.000 as well. He said those guys betrayed the true Christians 1384 01:19:02.380 --> 01:19:04.460 when they lost their faith. But their loss of faith 1385 01:19:04.520 --> 01:19:07.399 was born out of disappointment with God. It wasn't that 1386 01:19:07.420 --> 01:19:09.369 they didn't believe he was there. is that they were 1387 01:19:09.449 --> 01:19:12.229 so angry with the life that he had given them 1388 01:19:12.939 --> 01:19:15.880 versus what they expected to happen, that they would rather 1389 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:18.420 just walk away from him than to continue to suffer 1390 01:19:18.439 --> 01:19:18.880 in his name. 1391 01:19:20.039 --> 01:19:22.479 I think if you're a black and white thinker, I'm 1392 01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:25.619 more on that side. The work of Endo can be 1393 01:19:25.739 --> 01:19:29.020 a little bit frustrating because you want him to draw 1394 01:19:29.079 --> 01:19:32.729 this line in the sand, which he doesn't really do. 1395 01:19:32.810 --> 01:19:35.970 He's having to wrestle with this apostasy and it's a 1396 01:19:36.029 --> 01:19:36.390 little bit. 1397 01:19:37.270 --> 01:19:37.949 ambiguous. 1398 01:19:38.010 --> 01:19:40.060 And you're just like, and that's the problem I had 1399 01:19:40.069 --> 01:19:40.689 with Deep River. 1400 01:19:40.720 --> 01:19:43.079 It's the same thing. It's just like, what is it? 1401 01:19:43.279 --> 01:19:46.380 It's like, I'd like to see more clarity to the 1402 01:19:46.420 --> 01:19:47.979 gospel or what Christianity is about. 1403 01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:49.920 And he just does not do that in his work. 1404 01:19:50.520 --> 01:19:54.920 And so in this novel too, there's faithful witnesses and 1405 01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:58.529 in comparison with those who apostatize. 1406 01:19:58.590 --> 01:20:00.909 And so tell us about those. 1407 01:20:00.989 --> 01:20:03.550 How does that help us frame the people that are 1408 01:20:03.609 --> 01:20:07.039 also apostatizing? But at the same time, again, and you 1409 01:20:07.079 --> 01:20:10.079 see this, and that's probably why I had that, I guess, 1410 01:20:10.119 --> 01:20:13.279 reaction of hopelessness in the way that Scorsese brought out 1411 01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:17.399 the apostasy in his interpretation of this in the film, 1412 01:20:17.979 --> 01:20:20.520 is again, it's just not this clear-cut thing. You want 1413 01:20:20.539 --> 01:20:24.079 to say, okay, you weren't really a Christian, you apostatized, 1414 01:20:24.359 --> 01:20:28.350 but Endo doesn't let you make that conclusion, if that 1415 01:20:28.390 --> 01:20:31.510 makes sense, and that's why this novel is very fascinating 1416 01:20:31.550 --> 01:20:34.130 to talk about. So talk about The Faithful Witness, because 1417 01:20:34.569 --> 01:20:37.399 I think one thing that really makes me struggle with 1418 01:20:37.420 --> 01:20:42.260 Endo's work is, to me, it's too ambiguous at the end. 1419 01:20:42.500 --> 01:20:44.890 He's not drawing that really hard line in the sand. 1420 01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:48.170 He clearly is never settled, right? I mean, when you 1421 01:20:48.229 --> 01:20:52.010 read Endo's other work as well, if you have, you 1422 01:20:52.069 --> 01:20:55.930 see he struggles with this. And to some degree, that's what, 1423 01:20:56.069 --> 01:20:59.069 as you said, it's what makes his work, particularly with silence, 1424 01:20:59.130 --> 01:21:03.779 it's what makes it so debatable. It's because he will 1425 01:21:03.819 --> 01:21:04.689 not give you aid. 1426 01:21:05.310 --> 01:21:07.710 I'll have to interject here and say we read for 1427 01:21:07.729 --> 01:21:09.550 a book group with friends from church. 1428 01:21:10.069 --> 01:21:12.750 We read Deep River by Endo. 1429 01:21:13.010 --> 01:21:16.869 And I don't think I've had a more, I would say, 1430 01:21:16.949 --> 01:21:18.609 I don't want to say contentious because we're all friends, 1431 01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:21.319 but it was the most debated book we ever read. 1432 01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:24.060 I mean, there were just definitely two sides and it 1433 01:21:24.119 --> 01:21:28.399 was just this hardcore debate because his work elicits that 1434 01:21:28.479 --> 01:21:29.479 kind of reaction, I think. 1435 01:21:30.869 --> 01:21:34.010 Yeah,

and I was stunned at how often if I 1436 01:21:34.090 --> 01:21:36.989 mentioned silence in conversation over the last month or so, 1437 01:21:37.789 --> 01:21:40.159 how immediately people want to talk to me about it. 1438 01:21:41.010 --> 01:21:44.750 They have strong– and it's not just the people in conversations. 1439 01:21:44.810 --> 01:21:47.010 As I went through literature and read reviews of the 1440 01:21:47.050 --> 01:21:50.699 book and viewpoints of the book and people arguing over– 1441 01:21:51.079 --> 01:21:54.800 he is– I've used this term relentlessly a couple of 1442 01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:57.840 times in talking about him. I would say he's almost 1443 01:21:57.920 --> 01:22:01.909 relentlessly ambiguous and vague about how the story ends. He 1444 01:22:01.930 --> 01:22:03.149 does not give you that. 1445 01:22:03.430 --> 01:22:05.109 I mean, I got to the end of his Deep 1446 01:22:05.189 --> 01:22:06.840 River and I was just like, really? 1447 01:22:06.880 --> 01:22:09.420 Is this what you're really saying? I was just completely 1448 01:22:09.439 --> 01:22:10.079 frustrated by it. 1449 01:22:10.909 --> 01:22:14.069 But you can't, I mean, I think that by giving this, 1450 01:22:14.149 --> 01:22:16.619 and not just in this book, his next book after 1451 01:22:16.659 --> 01:22:20.020 this was Samurai. And in the book Samurai, the protagonist 1452 01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:25.399 is a Japanese samurai who ultimately grows to confess Christianity 1453 01:22:25.500 --> 01:22:29.350 and then die for his faith. And even he is 1454 01:22:29.430 --> 01:22:33.729 this conflicted and torn character, and it's not clear at 1455 01:22:33.770 --> 01:22:37.000 the end. whether or not it's all a great thing, 1456 01:22:37.500 --> 01:22:40.260 but he goes the other way, right? And this one, 1457 01:22:40.380 --> 01:22:44.689 it is the Portuguese Jesuits who abandoned their faith, and samurai, 1458 01:22:44.710 --> 01:22:47.670 it's a Japanese samurai who embraces faith and dies for it, 1459 01:22:48.229 --> 01:22:51.210 and follows all the way through to martyrdom. So he 1460 01:22:51.390 --> 01:22:54.090 is hard to get a hold on. I remember one 1461 01:22:54.130 --> 01:22:59.039 time reading somebody talking about an intellectual that he said, 1462 01:22:59.119 --> 01:23:01.500 reading him was like trying to hold mercury in your hand. 1463 01:23:01.939 --> 01:23:04.359 I feel that way a lot about trying to evaluate 1464 01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:09.500 I do think that because he gives us so many 1465 01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:13.159 fateful people, it makes it possible for the criticism to 1466 01:23:13.239 --> 01:23:16.399 land entirely on the specific characters that he's drawn out 1467 01:23:16.439 --> 01:23:19.510 of the story. So the backdrop of the story that 1468 01:23:19.550 --> 01:23:25.409 he's telling us is filled with fateful, but almost faceless people. 1469 01:23:25.550 --> 01:23:27.630 I mean, they're not faceless. I mean, he does have, 1470 01:23:27.949 --> 01:23:31.630 they have some level of participation in the story, but 1471 01:23:31.649 --> 01:23:35.090 they're not deep fleshed out characters. when you're talking about 1472 01:23:35.109 --> 01:23:37.470 the different characters that we see go, they're either people 1473 01:23:37.529 --> 01:23:40.170 that we don't know at all, or we only know superficially. 1474 01:23:40.529 --> 01:23:42.670 And what we know about them is that they're just 1475 01:23:42.750 --> 01:23:48.029 committed to Christ. And as far as the idea of 1476 01:23:48.729 --> 01:23:52.000 the ambiguousness of even the apostasy, I think that we 1477 01:23:52.039 --> 01:23:54.380 have Christian history on our side to be able to say, 1478 01:23:54.399 --> 01:23:59.539 it doesn't matter that the Japanese persecutors encourage them constantly. 1479 01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:02.289 We don't care if you mean it, you just have 1480 01:24:02.329 --> 01:24:05.710 to step on the image of Jesus. Because we've seen 1481 01:24:05.729 --> 01:24:08.470 this before, like back when the Romans, the pinch of incense, right? 1482 01:24:08.850 --> 01:24:11.569 We don't care if you mean it. You don't even 1483 01:24:11.630 --> 01:24:13.949 have to say anything. You just have to pick up 1484 01:24:14.310 --> 01:24:18.250 a pinch of incense and throw it into the fire 1485 01:24:18.750 --> 01:24:24.960 to show as a recognition of the deity of Caesar. 1486 01:24:26.029 --> 01:24:29.069 You are recognizing that he is– but you don't have 1487 01:24:29.109 --> 01:24:30.930 to say it. You don't have to mean it. And 1488 01:24:30.949 --> 01:24:33.069 then you have that battle back then of the Gnostics 1489 01:24:33.130 --> 01:24:36.829 versus the believers that would say, I cannot. I cannot 1490 01:24:36.890 --> 01:24:38.979 betray Christ even with a pinch of incense. And the 1491 01:24:38.989 --> 01:24:41.020 Gnostics saying, hey, look, it doesn't matter what we do 1492 01:24:41.060 --> 01:24:43.119 in our body. We're just spirit form anyway, so let 1493 01:24:43.140 --> 01:24:44.680 the body be what the body is and throw the 1494 01:24:44.699 --> 01:24:46.840 incense and don't worry about it. And that division in 1495 01:24:46.859 --> 01:24:49.239 the early church over that. You see this here at 1496 01:24:49.319 --> 01:24:53.579 one point with characters that Rodriguez encourages them. If they 1497 01:24:53.619 --> 01:24:54.979 tell you to step on it or you're going to 1498 01:24:55.010 --> 01:24:57.609 die– step on the stupid thing. It doesn't matter anyway. 1499 01:24:57.630 --> 01:25:00.600 And so they do step on it. And then the 1500 01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:04.140 persecutors turn to them and say, eh, you know, stepping 1501 01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:07.979 on it's easy. Why don't you spit on it? And 1502 01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:10.619 that's too far. They're like, okay, well, the priest told 1503 01:25:10.659 --> 01:25:12.199 us to step on it to save our lives, but 1504 01:25:12.220 -->

01:25:15.939 we're not doing that. We'd rather die. And so the 1505 01:25:16.010 --> 01:25:19.109 line is drawn there. Does it really count as apostasy 1506 01:25:19.149 --> 01:25:21.569 or are you just doing it to preserve life? I've 1507 01:25:21.630 --> 01:25:25.460 seen Jesuit priests in writing defending the idea that that 1508 01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:30.029 Ferreira and Chiada were not actually apostates, that they did 1509 01:25:30.069 --> 01:25:32.369 what they did to save lives, and that that was 1510 01:25:32.409 --> 01:25:34.710 all that was necessary, and that they never actually abandoned 1511 01:25:34.729 --> 01:25:37.420 their faith. As a matter of fact, the tradition says 1512 01:25:37.460 --> 01:25:40.960 that Ferreira ultimately regains his faith and then does die 1513 01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:44.659 a martyr's death later in his life. His counterpart never does, 1514 01:25:45.100 --> 01:25:48.409 and by all accounts dies in the state of apostasy. 1515 01:25:49.050 --> 01:25:52.529 So that's the story of what actually ultimately happened. So 1516 01:25:52.550 --> 01:25:55.779 I think that what those other witnesses do, not just 1517 01:25:56.420 --> 01:25:59.560 in this story, but also in his other stories, is 1518 01:25:59.899 --> 01:26:02.289 to tell us Endo is not asking us to make 1519 01:26:02.329 --> 01:26:06.210 an evaluation on whole. He's asking us to look at 1520 01:26:06.270 --> 01:26:09.529 these characters in particular and what's going on with them 1521 01:26:09.979 --> 01:26:12.960 because they're the ones wrestling with things that he's wrestled with. 1522 01:26:12.979 --> 01:26:16.460 They're the ones wrestling with the themes that are most important. 1523 01:26:16.720 --> 01:26:19.760 The other characters exist to show us the faithful witness 1524 01:26:20.039 --> 01:26:22.220 as just those people, I said, going back to the 1525 01:26:22.239 --> 01:26:26.220 Japanese academics that say that we're faithful martyrs. Christianity did endure. 1526 01:26:26.520 --> 01:26:28.640 We may be a small group, but we're a faithful 1527 01:26:28.699 --> 01:26:32.180 and strong and powerful group. and we are not incapable 1528 01:26:32.319 --> 01:26:36.239 of understanding what God is, nor enduring through persecution. Our 1529 01:26:36.319 --> 01:26:39.250 forefathers fought to deliver this faith to us, and we 1530 01:26:39.329 --> 01:26:42.750 hold it still as something precious to us. He's not 1531 01:26:42.850 --> 01:26:45.010 asking you to make a judgment on that. He's asking 1532 01:26:45.029 --> 01:26:51.289 you to make a judgment on Rodriguez and Ferreira and Kichijiro, 1533 01:26:51.430 --> 01:26:55.859 and probably to a lesser degree, the persecutors and what 1534 01:26:55.899 --> 01:26:59.090 they're doing. And it frees us up to face it doesn't, 1535 01:26:59.649 --> 01:27:03.189 what broke them doesn't necessarily have to break us because 1536 01:27:03.210 --> 01:27:07.590 we see that the story doesn't say that it's

meaningless 1537 01:27:07.630 --> 01:27:11.229 or pointless. The story says Rodriguez and Ferrero were weak 1538 01:27:11.670 --> 01:27:13.350 and their weakness cost people their lives. 1539 01:27:14.890 --> 01:27:18.810 So ultimately what is some encouragement that we can take 1540 01:27:18.869 --> 01:27:22.710 away from a story like Silence and especially, like you said, 1541 01:27:22.750 --> 01:27:25.229 you've just had so many opportunities to talk to people 1542 01:27:25.270 --> 01:27:28.210 about this book and its theme. So like, You know, 1543 01:27:28.229 --> 01:27:31.289 for the Christian apologists, how can we encourage people as 1544 01:27:31.329 --> 01:27:32.890 they're wrestling with what they've read? 1545 01:27:32.909 --> 01:27:36.289 You know, first of all, I think it's great because 1546 01:27:36.350 --> 01:27:38.979 I do think that by and large in the United States, 1547 01:27:39.020 --> 01:27:43.300 it's sort of undeniable that most of us live in 1548 01:27:43.340 --> 01:27:46.300 a level of comfort that is unimaginable to most people 1549 01:27:46.340 --> 01:27:48.819 throughout human history and certainly to a lot of people 1550 01:27:48.859 --> 01:27:52.500 around the world even today. They just can't even fathom 1551 01:27:52.979 --> 01:27:56.880 the level of comfort and resources that we operate under 1552 01:27:56.939 --> 01:28:00.340 on a daily basis. And the kind of pressures that 1553 01:28:00.359 --> 01:28:03.520 we have seen placed on people throughout history and the 1554 01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:08.020 costs that have been paid to spread the gospel, I 1555 01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:11.859 think is absent from our daily life oftentimes. But I 1556 01:28:11.859 --> 01:28:15.229 will tell you, the fact that so many Christians that 1557 01:28:15.289 --> 01:28:18.510 I have met are so animated and wanting to argue 1558 01:28:18.770 --> 01:28:22.670 and debate this story and the characters within it and 1559 01:28:22.750 --> 01:28:24.609 what happened to them and how did they get there 1560 01:28:25.390 --> 01:28:29.979 means that those themes resonate powerfully with us today. The 1561 01:28:30.079 --> 01:28:33.319 idea of wrestling with God's unfairness, wrestling with the problem 1562 01:28:33.359 --> 01:28:36.489 of evil and suffering, wrestling with disappointment with God and 1563 01:28:36.510 --> 01:28:38.489 the life he's given us versus what I hoped for. 1564 01:28:38.890 --> 01:28:42.199 All of these themes are still there. And in addition, 1565 01:28:42.239 --> 01:28:46.340 I think some level of concern of asking yourself, which 1566 01:28:46.380 --> 01:28:48.380 I don't think is unnatural. I've done this before when 1567 01:28:48.420 --> 01:28:51.119 I've read about Nazi Germany. I've done this before when 1568 01:28:51.159 --> 01:28:54.180 I've read about chattel slavery here in the United States. 1569 01:28:54.220 --> 01:28:56.920 I've read about these horrible things happening. I don't think 1570 01:28:56.960

--> 01:29:01.329 it's unnatural or weird to ask yourself, what would I 1571 01:29:01.430 --> 01:29:05.210 do if I were there? And I would like to be. 1572 01:29:05.550 --> 01:29:11.109 Robert George, a Catholic professor at Princeton University, every year 1573 01:29:11.529 --> 01:29:15.369 begins his discussion with his students. He's posted this online 1574 01:29:15.409 --> 01:29:18.699 several times where he says to them, you all like 1575 01:29:18.739 --> 01:29:24.300 to believe that you are these great, compassionate people who 1576 01:29:24.340 --> 01:29:27.680 are fighting for justice. He said, when have you, anyone 1577 01:29:27.699 --> 01:29:31.279 in this room, ever taken a position that that it 1578 01:29:31.380 --> 01:29:34.319 cost them to take. When have you ever fought? Because 1579 01:29:34.359 --> 01:29:37.119 if you say gay marriage, the culture was on your side. 1580 01:29:38.659 --> 01:29:41.199 The culture was on your side if you fight for 1581 01:29:41.260 --> 01:29:43.819 abortion rights. The culture is on your side if you're 1582 01:29:43.880 --> 01:29:46.880 fighting for gay marriage. If you're fighting for any number 1583 01:29:46.920 --> 01:29:50.880 of things, you're going to be praised by the culture. 1584 01:29:51.439 --> 01:29:54.500 But had you actually fought real injustice, as has been 1585 01:29:54.560 --> 01:29:58.170 fought throughout all of history, you would have lost your position. 1586 01:29:58.229 --> 01:30:01.289 You would have been insulted. You would have been seen 1587 01:30:01.890 --> 01:30:05.930 as a pariah or an outlier. You would have lost 1588 01:30:06.029 --> 01:30:09.539 company with certain groups of people and they would have 1589 01:30:09.579 --> 01:30:13.500 broken community with you. There was a cost to fighting 1590 01:30:13.560 --> 01:30:17.520 slavery when slavery was accepted. There was a cost to 1591 01:30:17.880 --> 01:30:21.119 fighting these injustices when they reigned and culture accepted them. 1592 01:30:21.579 --> 01:30:25.760 And he asked them that question. Would you have paid 1593 01:30:25.800 --> 01:30:29.600 the cost to be on the right side of those issues? 1594 01:30:30.119 --> 01:30:33.270 Or would you have been on the popular side? And 1595 01:30:33.310 --> 01:30:37.270 if you've never paid the cost for standing up against injustice, 1596 01:30:37.670 --> 01:30:40.329 then you have to ask yourself questions about that. So 1597 01:30:41.050 --> 01:30:42.829 we like to think of ourselves as hero, but the 1598 01:30:42.850 --> 01:30:45.710 story comes back. What would we do if I was there? 1599 01:30:46.350 --> 01:30:49.149 How would I have responded to what went on there? 1600 01:30:49.489 --> 01:30:51.489 I would like to believe that I'd be proven faithful. 1601 01:30:52.090 --> 01:30:54.630 I would like to believe that when I was sifted, 1602 01:30:55.239 --> 01:30:59.020 at that moment, I would have come through honoring God 1603 01:30:59.079 --> 01:31:01.199 and staying faithful to him and been one of those 1604 01:31:01.260 --> 01:31:04.529 people that said, I will not break. And there were 1605 01:31:04.609 --> 01:31:07.170 those people that would rather have died than betrayed God. 1606 01:31:07.289 --> 01:31:09.369 They were there even at that time, and they were 1607 01:31:09.390 --> 01:31:11.149 given to us in his book. And he gives us 1608 01:31:11.189 --> 01:31:13.529 other characters throughout some of his other books that do 1609 01:31:13.590 --> 01:31:18.479 take that position. So the honorable position lives, but it 1610 01:31:18.600 --> 01:31:23.420 is instructive for us to know that the struggle is 1611 01:31:23.579 --> 01:31:28.229 so universally, or at least on a wide range, still 1612 01:31:28.260 --> 01:31:30.520 want to be talked about and discussed and argued. As 1613 01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:33.520 I said, my picking up this book finally came to 1614 01:31:33.539 --> 01:31:37.090 the point because a pastor of a large church recently posted, 1615 01:31:37.630 --> 01:31:40.649 I want to talk about this book because I am 1616 01:31:40.850 --> 01:31:44.289 bothered by it. I'm bothered by aspects of it. It 1617 01:31:44.409 --> 01:31:47.750 asks questions about the mission. It asks questions about how 1618 01:31:47.810 --> 01:31:50.750 we're able to get the gospel into places that don't 1619 01:31:50.789 --> 01:31:53.550 want it. It asks questions about what's reasonable to endure 1620 01:31:53.630 --> 01:31:56.270 for the gospel of Christ. It asks questions about could 1621 01:31:56.510 --> 01:31:59.829 I endure? It asks questions about is God unfair? It 1622 01:31:59.890 --> 01:32:04.069 asks questions about disappointment. It raises all of these great 1623 01:32:04.130 --> 01:32:06.630 questions that we're all struggling with. And I think the 1624 01:32:06.710 --> 01:32:11.560 hope there is, I'll finish with this. This woman in 1625 01:32:11.600 --> 01:32:14.659 ministry called me, and we were discussing all of this, 1626 01:32:15.279 --> 01:32:17.340 not just silence, but all of this idea of the 1627 01:32:17.380 --> 01:32:19.800 struggles that she had had and the things that she 1628 01:32:19.819 --> 01:32:21.500 had struggled with. And I was sharing with her some 1629 01:32:21.520 --> 01:32:22.899 things that I had struggled with at a point in 1630 01:32:22.920 --> 01:32:26.989 the past. And she talked to me about this low 1631 01:32:27.069 --> 01:32:31.390 view she had of herself, this low opinion she had 1632 01:32:31.409 --> 01:32:34.130 of herself for her struggles. And I said, do you 1633 01:32:34.149 --> 01:32:36.069 know what you look like to me? You look like 1634 01:32:36.170 --> 01:32:39.569 Jacob holding on to God through the night. Jacob was 1635 01:32:39.630 --> 01:32:43.529 a mess. But he just would not let go at 1636 01:32:43.569 --> 01:32:45.590 that moment and said, I'm not letting go until you 1637 01:32:45.630 --> 01:32:49.060 bless me. The beautiful thing about

that moment is that 1638 01:32:49.140 --> 01:32:52.279 Jacob was a mess of a human being going into 1639 01:32:52.340 --> 01:32:55.119 that night who had sent everything he owned over to 1640 01:32:55.180 --> 01:32:57.699 his brother Esau to try to curb the anger that 1641 01:32:57.739 --> 01:32:59.750 he thought that he still had for him having stolen 1642 01:32:59.789 --> 01:33:04.510 his inheritance. And he was upset about this reckoning for 1643 01:33:04.590 --> 01:33:06.569 his life that he'd lived up to that point coming 1644 01:33:06.609 --> 01:33:09.359 the next day. And he's struggling, and it's only when 1645 01:33:09.399 --> 01:33:11.229 he accepts who and what he is at that point 1646 01:33:11.250 --> 01:33:13.789 when he says, you know, what is your name? And 1647 01:33:13.829 --> 01:33:15.510 he tells him, my name is Jacob, because the last 1648 01:33:15.529 --> 01:33:16.949 time he was asked, what is your name is? And 1649 01:33:16.970 --> 01:33:19.930 he asked for a blessing, he lied. And Jacob means supplanter, 1650 01:33:19.970 --> 01:33:22.560 Jacob means thief. And he reconciles who he is, that 1651 01:33:22.579 --> 01:33:25.300 you find out he was worried about nothing. Because he 1652 01:33:25.359 --> 01:33:27.180 finally goes to see Esau, and Esau's like, why are 1653 01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:28.859 you sending all this stuff to me? And he's like, well, 1654 01:33:28.880 --> 01:33:31.140 I wanted you, I was worried about you. And he's like, 1655 01:33:31.180 --> 01:33:32.699 I wasn't mad, I'm not angry, I just wanted to 1656 01:33:32.739 --> 01:33:35.050 see my brother. And so what left him there to 1657 01:33:35.130 --> 01:33:38.779 wrestle with God is, overnight wasn't even real. What he 1658 01:33:38.819 --> 01:33:41.840 was struggling with wasn't even real. But to his credit, 1659 01:33:41.920 --> 01:33:44.699 he holds on. He won't let go, even through the 1660 01:33:45.000 --> 01:33:48.689 pain and suffering that the wrestling with God entails for him. 1661 01:33:48.699 --> 01:33:51.470 It comes to that moment where he's able to see 1662 01:33:51.529 --> 01:33:53.750 who and what he is honestly, and then have his 1663 01:33:53.810 --> 01:33:56.350 name changed at that moment. And for me, that's the 1664 01:33:56.449 --> 01:33:59.890 hope of this kind of story, is that even though 1665 01:33:59.909 --> 01:34:02.520 we see a story about apostates, within it we see 1666 01:34:02.600 --> 01:34:07.590 faithfulness and what God can do with faithfulness And understanding 1667 01:34:07.609 --> 01:34:09.270 that we aren't the first people to come to this 1668 01:34:09.329 --> 01:34:13.029 place where we struggle, but at the same time, we 1669 01:34:13.109 --> 01:34:15.689 are empowered to get through it. We can see the 1670 01:34:15.729 --> 01:34:18.300 mistakes that Rodriguez is making and just not go down 1671 01:34:18.340 --> 01:34:20.880 those roads. We can see the error of Ferreira and 1672 01:34:20.899 --> 01:34:23.840 just

not choose to go down that road. We can 1673 01:34:23.960 --> 01:34:27.479 see the evil of those who are persecuting and recognize 1674 01:34:27.520 --> 01:34:30.180 that it is their evil, not God's evil. that we 1675 01:34:30.220 --> 01:34:35.000 are responding to. And it just raises so many deep questions. 1676 01:34:35.060 --> 01:34:38.630 And I'm encouraged that Christians are still wrestling with deep questions. 1677 01:34:38.649 --> 01:34:41.550 I would rather have a true and deep and tried 1678 01:34:41.630 --> 01:34:45.050 faith than a superficial one that is allowed to exist 1679 01:34:45.409 --> 01:34:47.850 because God knows I'm so weak and so fragile. He 1680 01:34:47.890 --> 01:34:51.829 just couldn't possibly introduce anything tough into my life. So 1681 01:34:51.880 --> 01:34:56.779 I see just such messages of endurance littered around Endo's 1682 01:34:56.840 --> 01:35:01.359 work that even as he plays out this play of 1683 01:35:01.699 --> 01:35:05.930 struggling and suffering, he has still planted in it, fateful 1684 01:35:06.010 --> 01:35:08.949 messages of people who have endured and who know the 1685 01:35:09.329 --> 01:35:13.109 truth and who die for the truth. And I just, 1686 01:35:13.409 --> 01:35:16.710 I'm encouraged. I'm encouraged by seeing people wanting to talk 1687 01:35:16.750 --> 01:35:19.210 about it. I'm encouraged by how many people are struggling 1688 01:35:19.250 --> 01:35:22.069 with God and holding onto him who are not letting go, 1689 01:35:22.090 --> 01:35:26.670 who see their life and their faith is worth fighting for. 1690 01:35:27.239 --> 01:35:30.180 and who are willing to wrestle through the muck and 1691 01:35:30.199 --> 01:35:33.090 the mire of difficulty to maybe come out the other 1692 01:35:33.130 --> 01:35:36.029 side knowing God a little better and being more sure 1693 01:35:36.050 --> 01:35:38.109 of who they are and their relationship with God. I 1694 01:35:38.949 --> 01:35:40.630 even talked to a guy the other night who, as 1695 01:35:40.670 --> 01:35:43.539 we were discussing it, he asked me about this article 1696 01:35:43.560 --> 01:35:45.729 that I was working on and about this podcast coming up, 1697 01:35:46.060 --> 01:35:48.689 and I shared with him details, and he said, shoot. 1698 01:35:48.699 --> 01:35:50.350 I said, what's the matter? And he said, I got 1699 01:35:50.369 --> 01:35:51.989 to read the book now. I got to read the 1700 01:35:52.010 --> 01:35:54.609 book because we got to talk about this more. And 1701 01:35:54.649 --> 01:35:57.029 people are excited. I was doing an interview with a 1702 01:35:57.149 --> 01:35:59.729 very famous author the other day and we were prepping 1703 01:35:59.770 --> 01:36:02.800 for the interview and they came on beforehand. And before 1704 01:36:02.859 --> 01:36:05.720 we did the interview, this subject came up and without 1705 01:36:05.760 --> 01:36:07.760 recording it, the three of us that were involved in 1706 01:36:07.800 --> 01:36:10.760 this just sat around and talked about these issues. And 1707 01:36:10.819 --> 01:36:13.920 from top to bottom, from teenagers to academics to authors, 1708 01:36:14.579 --> 01:36:17.810 I had just heard so many people want to wrestle 1709 01:36:17.890 --> 01:36:21.819 with these hard questions about God, but at the same time, 1710 01:36:21.880 --> 01:36:27.380 not broken by them, but just recognizing this relationship is 1711 01:36:27.520 --> 01:36:30.899 real and this world can be hard and difficult. And 1712 01:36:30.979 --> 01:36:35.640 God never promised to carry us through this unscathed and untouched. 1713 01:36:37.079 --> 01:36:41.119 But it's just worth seeing how hard it can be 1714 01:36:41.140 --> 01:36:44.359 to find out how fateful others have been. 1715 01:36:45.770 --> 01:36:47.930 Well, this is a lot to think about for sure. 1716 01:36:48.210 --> 01:36:52.510 And recommending to our listeners to read the book Silence 1717 01:36:52.609 --> 01:36:57.710 by Shusaku Endo. And on a very much lighter note, Jay, 1718 01:36:57.829 --> 01:37:02.449 it is the end of summer and we're getting into. 1719 01:37:02.350 --> 01:37:04.390 Fall, but is there anything fun you did this summer? 1720 01:37:05.649 --> 01:37:08.930 Yeah. Hold on. You know what? I was just recently 1721 01:37:08.970 --> 01:37:11.289 thinking about this. This is going to sound maybe almost 1722 01:37:11.710 --> 01:37:14.680 trivially silly, but, But I was thinking about this. I 1723 01:37:14.720 --> 01:37:17.000 have had a lot of great meals with people this summer. 1724 01:37:17.500 --> 01:37:20.699 And as I get older, I have actually reflected on this. 1725 01:37:21.600 --> 01:37:23.779 If you ask me, what are the happiest times of 1726 01:37:23.819 --> 01:37:26.340 your life? A lot of the happiest times of my 1727 01:37:26.380 --> 01:37:28.220 life have been sitting at the dinner table with people 1728 01:37:28.260 --> 01:37:30.779 that I love. And I have had the opportunity this 1729 01:37:30.819 --> 01:37:33.800 summer to have multiple times like that, where I've just 1730 01:37:33.899 --> 01:37:36.239 been sitting at the table with people. So there was 1731 01:37:36.279 --> 01:37:38.720 nothing extraordinary, nothing great. I had a summer that was 1732 01:37:38.760 --> 01:37:40.979 a lot of traveling for work and traveling to see. 1733 01:37:41.510 --> 01:37:45.750 my mother, who is not doing well. And so there's 1734 01:37:45.789 --> 01:37:49.430 that felt sense of responsibility for work, responsibility as a son, 1735 01:37:50.609 --> 01:37:51.939 coming to terms with a lot of things that are 1736 01:37:51.949 --> 01:37:54.840 going on. But in the midst of all that, there 1737 01:37:54.859 --> 01:37:57.300 was just these beautiful moments, just sitting around the table, 1738 01:37:57.399 --> 01:38:00.880 eating food and talking to people, more this summer than 1739 01:38:00.899 --> 01:38:02.300 I think I've had in a long time. So I 1740 01:38:02.300 -->

01:38:04.539 was busier this summer than I've been in many years. 1741 01:38:05.020 --> 01:38:07.859 And at the same time, God gave me some just 1742 01:38:07.920 --> 01:38:10.600 beautiful moments of community, some with people that I haven't 1743 01:38:10.659 --> 01:38:13.300 seen in a long time, where I just were sitting 1744 01:38:13.319 --> 01:38:16.060 around a table and laughing and eating good food and 1745 01:38:16.119 --> 01:38:20.359 drinking good drinks and being human with other people. And man, 1746 01:38:21.149 --> 01:38:25.970 I had really grown to appreciate that, the idea that 1747 01:38:26.010 --> 01:38:28.350 some of the happiest moments of my life are just 1748 01:38:28.390 --> 01:38:31.130 sitting around the table eating food with awesome people. And 1749 01:38:31.149 --> 01:38:32.350 I've got a lot of that this summer. 1750 01:38:33.029 --> 01:38:36.840 Well, that's an encouragement to our listeners to get a 1751 01:38:36.880 --> 01:38:39.880 meal with a friend. Well, thanks for being a guest 1752 01:38:39.920 --> 01:38:42.079 again on the Postmodern Realities Podcast. 1753 01:38:42.840 --> 01:38:44.199 Oh, thank you so much for having me. 1754 01:38:45.220 --> 01:38:50.539 You've been listening to episode 515 of of the Postmodern 1755 01:38:50.699 --> 01:38:56.239 Realities Podcast. Today's guest was Jay Watts. He has written 1756 01:38:56.380 --> 01:39:01.439 an exclusive online feature article for our cultural apologetics column 1757 01:39:01.979 --> 01:39:06.340 in the Christian Research Journal. His article is called Suffering 1758 01:39:06.539 --> 01:39:12.090 and Apostasy in Shusaku Endo's Silence. You can read this 1759 01:39:12.250 --> 01:39:17.550 article for free at equip.org. Please make sure you're subscribing 1760 01:39:17.609 --> 01:39:21.489 to all of the podcasts available from the Christian Research Institute. 1761 01:39:21.930 --> 01:39:25.630 We have the daily Bible Answer Man podcast from CRI 1762 01:39:25.670 --> 01:39:29.979 President Hank Hanegraaff, who hosts a Q & A format 1763 01:39:30.310 --> 01:39:33.520 Monday through Friday with the best of the week on Saturdays. 1764 01:39:34.119 --> 01:39:38.539 You also want to add in Hank Unplugged, which are 1765 01:39:38.699 --> 01:39:43.539 essential conversations about critical issues with some of the most 1766 01:39:43.680 --> 01:39:51.100 interesting people on the planet. and these are in-depth, free-flowing conversations. Also, 1767 01:39:51.119 --> 01:39:55.020 the two podcasts from the Christian Research Journal, this one 1768 01:39:55.260 --> 01:39:58.800 that you're listening to now, Postmodern Realities, which is author 1769 01:39:59.020 --> 01:40:05.029 interviews and discussions, and also our audio article podcast, Christian 1770 01:40:05.350 --> 01:40:06.909 Research Journal Reads. 1771 01:40:07.550 --> 01:40:09.170 And please don't forget to. 1772 01:40:09.369 --> 01:40:14.180 Try out our very newest podcast, just debuting in 2026, 1773 01:40:14.180 --> 01:40:18.380 which is called A Commitment to Reality from Dave Hanegraaff. 1774 01:40:19.060 --> 01:40:22.430 And again, all of our podcasts are available on all 1775 01:40:22.470 --> 01:40:27.010 the platforms. So wherever you get your subscription feed, please 1776 01:40:27.069 --> 01:40:30.020 make sure you add in our podcast. And thank you 1777 01:40:30.119 --> 01:40:32.500 so much for your partnership and for listening. 1778 01:40:43.470 --> 01:40:44.189 Thank you.