บทถอดความฉบับเต็มของ Postmodern Realities Podcast Episode 520: Astral Projection: Biblical Discernment and Out-of-Body Experiences

00:04:52.350 I don't know that that's actually realistic. So we're going 69 00:04:52.370 --> 00:04:55.410 to talk about that today. Is an experience of somebody 70 00:04:55.449 --> 00:04:58.129 in real life, is that really what it looks like 71 00:04:58.189 --> 00:05:00.709 when we see it in a television program? But in 72 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:04.060 the 20th century, there was a book that was published 73 00:05:04.449 --> 00:05:09.160 by a radio executive turned researcher named Robert Monroe. And 74 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:14.040 this was in 1971. He published a book called Journeys 75 00:05:14.180 --> 00:05:16.779 Out of the Body. And in it, he actually talked 76 00:05:16.819 --> 00:05:22.480 about his experiences leaving his body and encouraged people to 77 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.660 not only think about it, but try to find ways 78 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:29.560 to practice leaving their body. This is what astral projection is. 79 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:32.819 And as I've mentioned, you see it in movies like 80 00:05:33.069 --> 00:05:36.550 Doctor Strange. But I also noticed that it was in 81 00:05:36.589 --> 00:05:40.350 a new series on Netflix called Behind Her Eyes. Now, 82 00:05:40.470 --> 00:05:43.589 I want to be very clear. I actually stopped watching 83 00:05:44.029 --> 00:05:47.000 this series. when I started it, I only got through 84 00:05:47.019 --> 00:05:50.610 two and a half episodes because it was so graphic. 85 00:05:51.399 --> 00:05:54.610 There was a lot of nudity and other sexual content, 86 00:05:54.990 --> 00:05:56.889 but I really wanted to see like, how is astral 87 00:05:56.910 --> 00:06:01.930 projection portrayed? It wasn't that helpful to me in my research, 88 00:06:02.209 --> 00:06:04.870 I guess. So I would say you could avoid that 89 00:06:05.029 --> 00:06:09.110 one mark and avoid it. I found it pretty disturbing actually, 90 00:06:09.490 --> 00:06:12.949 but that was another more recent series that people maybe 91 00:06:13.189 --> 00:06:17.379 would have gotten a exposed to astral projection in. And 92 00:06:17.430 --> 00:06:20.790 of course, Melanie, we always talk about social media and 93 00:06:20.810 --> 00:06:23.230 these topics, right? Like where are people hearing about this? 94 00:06:23.290 --> 00:06:25.730 Where are young people hearing about it? They're finding it 95 00:06:26.170 --> 00:06:28.689 in reels. They're finding it on TikTok. They're finding it 96 00:06:29.230 --> 00:06:31.490 on YouTube channels. They're finding it on all sorts of 97 00:06:31.529 --> 00:06:37.240 places that maybe gives them accurate information and maybe just 98 00:06:37.709 --> 00:06:39.839 opens them up to all sorts of information that is 99 00:06:39.939 --> 00:06:43.699 actually untrue. So I think Christians should be interested in 100 00:06:43.740 --> 00:06:46.579 this topic and in that the rest of the world 101 00:06:46.819 --> 00:06:49.300 is interested in this topic. And we should be able 102 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:53.910 to talk about it in an intelligent and rational way 103 00:06:54.310 --> 00:06:57.230 and have a conversation about it, especially if we have 104 00:06:57.269 --> 00:06:59.300 friends and family members who might be bringing it up. 105 00:07:00.569 --> 00:07:05.899 So you mentioned that what astral projection actually is, is 106 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:10.100 an out-of-body experience. So why don't you tell our listeners 107 00:07:10.139 --> 00:07:12.579 a little bit more about that? What is an out 108 00:07:12.620 --> 00:07:16.879 of body experience. And then if people have an out 109 00:07:16.899 --> 00:07:20.879 of body experience, what kinds of things do they experience? 110 00:07:22.410 --> 00:07:26.089 I have never personally experienced an out of body experience. 111 00:07:26.149 --> 00:07:30.170 So I'm not speaking from experience, but from what I 112 00:07:30.209 --> 00:07:34.889 can tell, roughly 10% of the population actually claims to 113 00:07:34.949 --> 00:07:39.129 have experienced an OBE or an out of body experience. 114 00:07:39.870 --> 00:07:44.649 What it is is when a person feels like their 115 00:07:44.769 --> 00:07:48.540 awareness is actually no longer in their physical body. So 116 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:51.040 it might be the idea of you're floating above your 117 00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:55.759 body and watching whatever's happening below. That would be considered 118 00:07:55.800 --> 00:08:00.079 maybe an out-of-body experience. In my research, I found that 119 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:04.860 there are two types of out-of-body experiences. There are the 120 00:08:04.899 --> 00:08:08.120 kind that are spontaneous, and then there are the kind 121 00:08:08.170 --> 00:08:13.170 that are induced. The induced ones usually come about with 122 00:08:13.250 --> 00:08:18.990 some sort of deep meditation or even using drugs or 123 00:08:19.089 --> 00:08:24.319 psychoactive substances like caffeine or alcohol to induce these experiences. 124 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:29.480 An induced experience would be like self-hypnosis or astral projection. 125 00:08:30.019 --> 00:08:34.480 There's also spontaneous out-of-body experiences. These are the ones that 126 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:39.289 we don't have any control over. These are like near-death experiences. 127 00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:44.620 So when somebody is, like I said, experiencing an out 128 00:08:44.659 --> 00:08:48.980 of body experience, they really might feel like they're floating 129 00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:53.379 and witnessing everything that happens in the room around them 130 00:08:53.899 --> 00:08:59.899 from sort of above. And they might also experience traveling 131 00:08:59.990 --> 00:09:03.789 to a different location. People who've claimed to experience these 132 00:09:04.370 --> 00:09:07.629 say that they feel very real, like it's in their 133 00:09:07.750 --> 00:09:12.129 physical nature that they're experiencing it. It's hard to prove 134 00:09:12.610 -->

00:09:15.659 that's the problem. They experience it, they say it's real, 135 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:19.100 but then when researchers want to understand what it is 136 00:09:19.139 --> 00:09:23.279 they're talking about, it's hard to because we can't tell 137 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:27.000 what's happening in a person's mind. The thing that we're 138 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:30.309 most concerned about talking about today with regard to astral 139 00:09:30.350 --> 00:09:35.370 projection is this idea of where are you traveling to 140 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:39.429 Why are you traveling to a different location? Like, what's 141 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.840 your goal? And is this something that Christians should be 142 00:09:44.299 --> 00:09:46.019 concerned about or interested in? 143 00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:51.159 Whether you're a new listener to the podcast or a 144 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:56.090 longtime listener, you might not have realized that you can 145 00:09:56.169 --> 00:10:00.120 get our free e-newsletters right to your inbox at And 146 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:04.279 they're just a well of information full of free resources 147 00:10:04.340 --> 00:10:08.120 that have been curated for our listeners and our partners 148 00:10:08.740 --> 00:10:12.509 and people who come to our website. And so if 149 00:10:12.549 --> 00:10:15.570 you go to equip.org, we've made a recent update to it. 150 00:10:15.570 --> 00:10:17.529 If you scroll down a little bit, you will see 151 00:10:17.549 --> 00:10:21.539 that now right In front on the front page, there's 152 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:24.320 an easy way for you to subscribe to these newsletters. 153 00:10:24.820 --> 00:10:27.460 You can subscribe to both of them or you can 154 00:10:27.820 --> 00:10:30.659 subscribe to only one. In the week in review, you 155 00:10:30.710 --> 00:10:34.090 will get all the new episodes and articles that have 156 00:10:34.129 --> 00:10:38.370 been posted on the website, episodes to our podcast and 157 00:10:38.389 --> 00:10:42.009 the other podcasts that we have, which I talk about 158 00:10:42.049 --> 00:10:44.220 at the very end of this episode. So you don't 159 00:10:44.259 --> 00:10:48.110 want to miss out on getting these episodes. e-news. 160 00:10:48.179 --> 00:10:49.990 Now I know a lot of us get a lot 161 00:10:50.009 --> 00:10:51.370 of email. 162 00:10:51.049 --> 00:10:54.389 Into our inboxes, but the thing about our e-newsletter is 163 00:10:54.470 --> 00:10:58.070 they're so chock full of all these actual free resources 164 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:00.889 that you will use. And so, you know, it's going 165 00:11:00.909 --> 00:11:03.230 to end up being one of those starred emails that 166 00:11:03.250 --> 00:11:05.809 you'll come back to, or that you will want to 167 00:11:05.830 --> 00:11:08.090 make sure that you read. So don't miss out on 168 00:11:08.169 --> 00:11:10.960 signing up and you, unless you sign up for the 169 00:11:11.149 --> 00:11:14.820 daily e-truth

from Hank Canagraph, you will not be hearing 170 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:17.950 from us every single day like you do from some 171 00:11:18.169 --> 00:11:21.769 other companies, organizations, and that kind of stuff. So it's 172 00:11:22.299 --> 00:11:27.200 really curated and just helpful resources to equip Christians to 173 00:11:27.259 --> 00:11:29.940 think Christianly. So don't miss out on that. Sign up 174 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:34.169 and subscribe to those newsletters. Well, now back to my 175 00:11:34.250 --> 00:11:41.070 conversation about astral projection, the astral plane and spirits with 176 00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:44.610 Lindsay Mendenhall. Well, just a moment ago, you were kind 177 00:11:44.629 --> 00:11:49.090 of explaining to our listeners what an out-of-body experience is. 178 00:11:49.649 --> 00:11:55.009 So how common are they? How common are these experiences 179 00:11:55.250 --> 00:11:57.190 that people say they have? 180 00:11:57.350 --> 00:11:58.850 And how do you experience them? 181 00:11:58.909 --> 00:12:02.049 What would cause an out-of-body experience? 182 00:12:02.870 --> 00:12:07.450 Yeah. So the spontaneous ones can just happen as they happen, 183 00:12:07.929 --> 00:12:13.519 such as near-death experiences. The induced ones really... It is 184 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:17.679 about control. The person does try to control their own destiny, 185 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.679 if you will. Like I said, I don't think that 186 00:12:20.730 --> 00:12:25.210 they're that common, roughly 10% of the population, but they're 187 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:28.149 common enough that we should be talking about it, especially 188 00:12:28.409 --> 00:12:31.450 in the month of October when everybody's talking about everything, 189 00:12:32.250 --> 00:12:37.139 dealing with the paranormal and supernatural world. The thing, Melanie, 190 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:40.360 that we need to be concerned about when we're talking 191 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:47.590 about out-of-body experiences is is recognizing that your belief may 192 00:12:47.649 --> 00:12:51.799 not actually be aligned with reality. We talk about truth 193 00:12:51.860 --> 00:12:57.679 a lot. We talk about reality being true. When we're 194 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:02.139 thinking about out-of-body experiences, we have to consider whether that 195 00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:06.779 experience is actually happening or maybe we're simply dreaming. And 196 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:09.710 that is something that we really do need to consider 197 00:13:09.789 --> 00:13:13.029 when we're having a conversation with someone who claims that 198 00:13:13.070 --> 00:13:15.120 they've experienced such an event. 199 00:13:16.429 --> 00:13:19.639 And I want to tell our listeners that Lindsay has 200 00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:22.940 kind of gone really in-depth into some of those types 201 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:26.600 of experiences in lucid dreams. So you would want to 202 00:13:26.659 --> 00:13:31.820 look up her article on equip.org about lucid dreams. So 203 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:37.080 in terms of out-of-body experience, where does astral projection come 204 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:40.279 into this as a type of out-of-body experience? 205 00:13:41.509 --> 00:13:46.970 Astral projection is an induced version of an out-of-body experience. 206 00:13:47.250 --> 00:13:50.970 It is this idea that your consciousness or your soul 207 00:13:51.450 --> 00:13:55.549 or some part of your quote-unquote astral body is actually 208 00:13:55.649 --> 00:14:01.100 leaving your physical body and going somewhere else. It's really 209 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:05.320 about visiting this place called the astral plane. That seems 210 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.929 to be a pretty consistent term. location that people want 211 00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:13.629 to visit when they are practicing astral projection. You might 212 00:14:13.690 --> 00:14:17.769 actually remember Teal Swan, Melanie. So years ago, when I 213 00:14:17.830 --> 00:14:22.110 first started doing these articles for the Christian Research Journal, 214 00:14:22.509 --> 00:14:25.840 the first task was about a woman named Teal Swan. 215 00:14:26.509 --> 00:14:32.340 And she is still quite a prominent New Age influencer. 216 00:14:32.799 --> 00:14:36.570 She actually has 2 million subscribers on YouTube now, which 217 00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:39.279 is significant growth since the last time we talked about her. 218 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:45.230 She has talked extensively about astral projection, and she claims 219 00:14:45.629 --> 00:14:49.769 that astral projection helps people escape from the prison of 220 00:14:49.830 --> 00:14:54.210 their earthly experience. So you're leaving your body to experience 221 00:14:54.649 --> 00:14:59.490 something else. It allows people the opportunity to maybe reach 222 00:14:59.529 --> 00:15:04.110 a higher dimension and achieve their higher self one of 223 00:15:04.149 --> 00:15:07.129 the things we talk about quite frequently with regard to 224 00:15:07.149 --> 00:15:12.009 the new age, Melanie, is this idea of raising your vibrations. 225 00:15:12.409 --> 00:15:15.490 So the idea is that we are all made up 226 00:15:15.570 --> 00:15:19.750 of vibrations and the higher the vibrations we have, the 227 00:15:20.009 --> 00:15:23.360 more connected we are to our higher self. What is 228 00:15:23.389 --> 00:15:26.700 this higher self? Well, in connection with my research for 229 00:15:26.820 --> 00:15:30.259 this topic, I read a book called Astral Dynamics by 230 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.570 a gentleman named Robert Bruce. And he talks about the 231 00:15:33.610 --> 00:15:37.809 higher self and he describes it as this sort of 232 00:15:37.950 --> 00:15:41.110 being that loves you more than anybody else could love you. 233 00:15:41.750 --> 00:15:45.110 And once you achieve your higher self, it's like you've 234 00:15:45.190 --> 00:15:49.789 reached God status and astral projection

helps us reach that 235 00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:53.950 God status. And that's very, anybody who's kind of keen 236 00:15:54.110 --> 00:15:57.610 on the new age movement will definitely recognize that kind 237 00:15:57.649 --> 00:16:01.049 of phrasing that we hear. It's very consistent with the 238 00:16:01.110 --> 00:16:04.110 new age movement. this idea that we need to achieve 239 00:16:04.190 --> 00:16:08.509 our higher selves, that we can be gods. It's a 240 00:16:08.570 --> 00:16:13.000 very new age thing. And astral projection, when used as 241 00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:16.340 new agers are using it, is definitely something that we 242 00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:19.820 should probably not participate in. And we'll go into detail 243 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:24.320 probably later, more specifically about the warnings that I might 244 00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:26.340 have for people who are interested in this. 245 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.799 Well, you mentioned that one of the places that most 246 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:35.799 people who are having this induced out-of-body experience are wanting 247 00:16:35.850 --> 00:16:39.509 to visit is the astral plane. So what is the 248 00:16:39.669 --> 00:16:44.309 astral plane? And then if people have visited the astral plane, 249 00:16:44.370 --> 00:16:47.309 what do they say has happened to them? 250 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.700 I've tried to put myself in this situation because I 251 00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:57.600 haven't experienced astral projection, but I have wanted to experience 252 00:16:58.059 --> 00:17:01.320 some level of escapism at various times in my life. 253 00:17:01.379 --> 00:17:03.629 So for me, I've just gone to a movie theater 254 00:17:03.649 --> 00:17:05.220 by myself and I watch a movie and then I 255 00:17:05.259 --> 00:17:07.519 go home. And for me, the movie kind of gives 256 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.119 me that opportunity to escape for a couple of hours. 257 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:12.599 And I know that my body is still in my 258 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.680 body and I'm not actually going into the film and 259 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:22.119 experiencing that with the characters in the movie on the screen, right? 260 00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:26.819 With astral projection, it is kind of an opportunity to 261 00:17:26.900 --> 00:17:30.200 escape like Teal Swan said, right? We're escaping this prison 262 00:17:30.269 --> 00:17:34.410 cell of our physical bodies. But the astral plane isn't 263 00:17:34.509 --> 00:17:41.599 something that's been mapped. It's actually a pretty interesting concept 264 00:17:41.660 --> 00:17:47.380 that descriptions vary depending on the person who's experiencing it. 265 00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:52.880 But it's a non-physical intermediate dimension of existence is probably 266 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.529 the best way to phrase it, where your consciousness is 267 00:17:56.769 --> 00:18:00.829 independent of your material body. So your emotions and your 268 00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:05.329 thoughts are are independent of your actual physical body. And 269 00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:09.210 the astral plane, and this is pretty consistent as well, 270 00:18:09.690 --> 00:18:13.829 is said to be inhabited by spirits and souls of 271 00:18:13.849 --> 00:18:18.789 the deceased and other immaterial beings. And I know that 272 00:18:18.829 --> 00:18:22.369 people are sensing some red flags here, and good, you 273 00:18:22.430 --> 00:18:26.410 should be. That's a reason why I think Christians really 274 00:18:26.450 --> 00:18:29.650 need to be cautious. Because if we're talking about something 275 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.000 that supposedly exists beyond the physical world, we have to 276 00:18:34.119 --> 00:18:38.579 ask ourselves, what exactly are we experiencing? Who are we 277 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:43.359 actually experiencing it with? Who are these spirits? And are 278 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.920 these beings giving us reliable information? Are they trustworthy? Do 279 00:18:47.960 --> 00:18:50.549 we even want to be in the same space that 280 00:18:50.589 --> 00:18:50.970 they're in? 281 00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:56.269 Also, in your article, you talk about near-death experiences as 282 00:18:56.509 --> 00:19:01.460 a kind of out-of-body experience. So that's a regular question 283 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:06.000 we get on the Bible Answer Man. Did somebody have 284 00:19:06.019 --> 00:19:10.900 a near-death experience where they visited heaven or something like that? 285 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:15.049 So is participating in astral projection trying to do that, 286 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:18.349 is that like an NDE? Is it a near-death experience? 287 00:19:19.809 --> 00:19:25.150 They're related in that they are both considered out-of-body experiences, 288 00:19:25.309 --> 00:19:30.430 but near-death experiences would sort of be spontaneous. When people 289 00:19:30.509 --> 00:19:33.970 say their life flashed before their eyes or they went 290 00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:37.680 and visited heaven when they were dying on the table 291 00:19:37.779 --> 00:19:39.319 and then they were brought back to life and they 292 00:19:39.380 --> 00:19:43.099 had this experience. We've heard lots of stories from people 293 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:47.769 who have claimed this. And there are Christians on both 294 00:19:47.829 --> 00:19:53.329 sides will say that. near-death experiences are real or near-death 295 00:19:53.369 --> 00:19:57.390 experiences are not real. There is a really important distinction 296 00:19:57.470 --> 00:20:03.619 between trying to visit an astral plane filled with spirits 297 00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:07.980 you don't know trying to escape the physical world and 298 00:20:08.059 --> 00:20:11.640 attain some sort of higher consciousness and become like a 299 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:17.710 God versus having a spontaneous out of your control near-death experience. 300 00:20:18.130 --> 00:20:23.990 So it does,

usually a near-death experience occurs when you're 301 00:20:24.069 --> 00:20:29.480 experiencing high intensity life-threatening events, right? It's not like you 302 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:34.859 planned it. They might report floating above their bodies. We've seen, 303 00:20:34.940 --> 00:20:38.059 and that's, again, similar to what we might see with 304 00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:42.619 astral projection. They might talk about seeing a light. They 305 00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:49.450 might actually talk about interacting with deceased relatives or other 306 00:20:49.509 --> 00:20:54.690 beings or experiencing a lot of peace or feeling like 307 00:20:54.730 --> 00:21:01.180 they've entered an alternate reality even. But That's not the same, again, 308 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:06.329 as astral projection. It's usually discussed with something that we 309 00:21:06.390 --> 00:21:11.269 can induce, not just experience when we're near death, right? 310 00:21:11.769 --> 00:21:16.039 And so I want people to know that not all 311 00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:21.599 out-of-body experiences are created equal. And you can have good 312 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:26.180 conversation on both topics, but they are astral projection and 313 00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:30.049 near-death experiences. are not exactly the same thing. 314 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:37.789 So what about someone who wants to, that sounds intriguing 315 00:21:37.829 --> 00:21:41.690 to them, the astral plane? Can anyone decide that they 316 00:21:41.730 --> 00:21:46.880 want to experience astral projection or does it require some 317 00:21:46.910 --> 00:21:49.759 kind of practice or some kind of skill set in 318 00:21:49.859 --> 00:21:51.319 order to reach the astral plane? 319 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.059 From what I can tell, Melanie, it does require intentionality. 320 00:21:58.140 --> 00:22:04.009 And that was really the subject of Robert Bruce's book, Astrodynamics. 321 00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:09.910 The subtitle is The Complete Book of Out-of-Body Experiences. And 322 00:22:10.130 --> 00:22:14.849 there are illustrations throughout the text about body placement and 323 00:22:14.910 --> 00:22:20.970 what's happening in certain parts of your body during your experiences, 324 00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:24.569 not just with astral projection, but other things that you 325 00:22:24.609 --> 00:22:28.920 might experience when you're trying to to practice astral projection. 326 00:22:29.539 --> 00:22:32.839 People who practice astral projection will say that the best 327 00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:38.940 way to attain this is usually through deep relaxation or 328 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:47.309 meditation or visualization. There are some sleep-wake transitions that they 329 00:22:47.349 --> 00:22:52.670 will make their bodies aware of and intentionally induce something 330 00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:56.769 like astral projection in that timeframe. And there are some 331 00:22:56.849 --> 00:23:01.890 other practices too, including the use of drugs or alcohol 332 00:23:02.009 --> 00:23:08.470 to induce this astral projection state. Robert Bruce, he explains 333 00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:12.299 that there are goals that you can strive to achieve 334 00:23:12.700 --> 00:23:16.099 that will get you closer and closer to getting to 335 00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:19.579 your higher self, sort of steps you can take. You're 336 00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:22.259 probably not going to be expert level the first day 337 00:23:22.299 --> 00:23:26.059 that you try astral projection, according to Bruce. But that 338 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:31.119 doesn't mean that you should just give up, according to Bruce. Now, 339 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:33.660 I want to be clear, Melanie, that even though we 340 00:23:33.700 --> 00:23:37.759 talk about these subjects and sometimes the way that I 341 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.019 phrase things makes it sound like I'm encouraging people to 342 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:46.109 practice them. It's hard sometimes to restate maybe what might 343 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:47.890 be obvious to me but might not be obvious to 344 00:23:47.930 --> 00:23:51.769 the listener that I'm talking from their perspective and not 345 00:23:51.869 --> 00:23:56.569 from mine. So I am not encouraging people to attempt 346 00:23:57.049 --> 00:24:00.609 astral projection. I am just stating that there are actually 347 00:24:00.690 --> 00:24:04.160 guidebooks to do it for those who are interested in it. 348 00:24:04.349 --> 00:24:07.710 And that is something Christians should be aware of because 349 00:24:08.329 --> 00:24:11.819 people are getting information. And in order to respond, we 350 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.839 kind of need to know the information that they're getting. 351 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:18.640 And so hopefully in just a few minutes, I've told 352 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.680 you kind of where that information is coming from and 353 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.170 eventually I'll give you some responses that we can kind 354 00:24:26.230 --> 00:24:27.569 of grapple with this together. 355 00:24:27.589 --> 00:24:31.390 I'm sure there are people that are out there as 356 00:24:31.430 --> 00:24:36.710 they listen to this asking kind of a skeptical question. 357 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:39.279 In other words, I don't think any of this is 358 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:44.880 supported by science. So is there any scientific evidence for 359 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:51.009 out-of-body experiences and what in particular, if anything... does science 360 00:24:51.230 --> 00:24:53.170 say about astral projection? 361 00:24:54.569 --> 00:24:59.289 Yeah, this is an interesting area. As some listeners might know, 362 00:24:59.329 --> 00:25:01.230 and of course, as you know, Melanie, I'm married to 363 00:25:01.269 --> 00:25:04.910 a psychologist. And so usually when I'm talking about science 364 00:25:04.970 --> 00:25:07.859 and researchers, I will start with him and ask him 365 00:25:07.890

--> 00:25:11.440 what he knows about the topics. And he did send 366 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:17.160 me some information about all a variety of things that 367 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:22.619 had been discussed about out-of-body experiences and even some research 368 00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:26.240 that had been done by the CIA to maybe perhaps 369 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:31.230 use people who were good with out-of-body experiences to maybe 370 00:25:31.430 --> 00:25:36.549 examine evidence or find killers or whatever the case may be. Now, 371 00:25:36.869 --> 00:25:40.859 the result of most of that research has been pretty 372 00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:46.339 consistent in that the people who were being researched had 373 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:51.099 similar results as the people who were guessing. So if 374 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.880 you had half of the group claim to be people 375 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:59.400 who were having out-of-body experiences like astral projection and half 376 00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:02.589 of the group, they're not. And you ask them what's 377 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.769 happening behind the wall, right? In astral projection, you should 378 00:26:07.809 --> 00:26:10.410 be able to see that because remember you're kind of 379 00:26:10.529 --> 00:26:13.470 floating and you're able to see yourself. And then eventually 380 00:26:13.509 --> 00:26:16.430 you travel to the astral plane, but you should be 381 00:26:16.529 --> 00:26:22.009 able to reveal to researchers what's happening, like what page 382 00:26:22.049 --> 00:26:24.289 is being held up or what image is on the 383 00:26:24.329 --> 00:26:27.059 screen or whatever it may be. And the results of 384 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:31.160 that have been that they're pretty equal. The people who 385 00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:35.539 claim to be participating in astral projection versus the people 386 00:26:35.579 --> 00:26:39.779 who are just guessing have about the same results. So that's, 387 00:26:40.759 --> 00:26:44.680 in my mind, that's evidence that perhaps the out-of-body experiences 388 00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:52.069 aren't actually supported by science. And there's, of course, just 389 00:26:52.150 --> 00:26:55.549 not a lot of physical proof because, again, this is 390 00:26:55.609 --> 00:26:58.970 happening with a person's consciousness. And so how can I, 391 00:26:59.109 --> 00:27:02.680 I don't see people's consciousness. And even if they claim 392 00:27:02.740 --> 00:27:06.259 that they're floating above, their body is floating above the room, 393 00:27:06.819 --> 00:27:09.589 I don't see that happening. And as a researcher, you 394 00:27:09.609 --> 00:27:13.319 just see the person laying there and sitting there, not 395 00:27:13.390 --> 00:27:16.759 projecting themselves somewhere else. So it's really hard to prove 396 00:27:16.779 --> 00:27:22.140 in that way as well. But researchers do seem pretty 397 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:30.339 open to having people share their firsthand experiences on this topic. 398 00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:33.279 Because if you study the brain, you want to know 399 00:27:33.339 --> 00:27:36.529 more about what the brain is doing and why. And 400 00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:39.049 that really does seem to be the question that researchers 401 00:27:39.230 --> 00:27:44.869 are asking themselves is, why do about 10% of the 402 00:27:44.910 --> 00:27:48.359 population claim to be able to have these experiences? What's 403 00:27:48.390 --> 00:27:51.259 going on in their brain that perhaps is different from 404 00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:55.299 the rest of the population, if anything? And then, of course, 405 00:27:55.500 --> 00:28:00.369 asking the questions, what's actually happening on the astral plane? 406 00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:04.369 Is there a consequence for whatever happens on the astral 407 00:28:04.390 --> 00:28:07.720 plane in the physical world? Do we see that play out? 408 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:10.599 What is the impact? One of the questions I saw 409 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.700 in one of the studies I read was what is 410 00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:18.089 the impact overall on the person's life in experiencing astral projection? 411 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:22.190 Are there positive experiences or are they negative experiences? On 412 00:28:22.230 --> 00:28:25.150 the whole, the people who claim to have out-of-body experiences 413 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:31.009 claim they are better for it. But again, we as Christians, 414 00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:35.480 we should be skeptical when we start talking about things 415 00:28:35.599 --> 00:28:41.539 like going to other dimensions to see spirits or hear 416 00:28:41.619 --> 00:28:45.079 from other immaterial beings. We need to be on guard 417 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:49.640 against those things and recognize that just because someone claims 418 00:28:49.660 --> 00:28:54.109 to have experienced it doesn't necessarily make it real. Truth 419 00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:56.869 is paramount. And as Christians, we really need to elevate it. 420 00:28:57.630 --> 00:29:00.529 Well, you were just saying how it doesn't seem to 421 00:29:00.589 --> 00:29:03.890 be real and science is not supporting it, but the 422 00:29:03.930 --> 00:29:07.769 people participating in this do believe it's real, why do 423 00:29:07.789 --> 00:29:10.700 you think they believe that the astral plane is a 424 00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:12.420 real place that they're going to? 425 00:29:13.220 --> 00:29:15.380 For me, I think it comes down to when people 426 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.619 are very convinced of something they've experienced, it's really hard 427 00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:21.980 to convince them otherwise, right? So even, I mean, we 428 00:29:22.019 --> 00:29:24.720 can look at kids that claim they've experienced things and 429 00:29:24.740 --> 00:29:27.630 you're like, no, that didn't happen, right? And we've got 430 00:29:27.670 --> 00:29:31.410 these false memories sometimes

that our older people in our 431 00:29:31.450 --> 00:29:33.829 homes are like, yeah, we never did that. But I 432 00:29:33.950 --> 00:29:38.049 swear that's what we did. And the answer is, no, 433 00:29:38.450 --> 00:29:41.500 we actually didn't do those things. So it's really hard 434 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.160 to argue with someone who is convinced that they've had 435 00:29:44.180 --> 00:29:48.980 a particular experience. And not only do they feel that 436 00:29:49.000 --> 00:29:52.740 their experiences are real, sometimes they even have a hard 437 00:29:52.779 --> 00:29:57.089 time explaining them themselves. And so the not only do 438 00:29:57.109 --> 00:30:00.359 you have people who are listening to the experience being skeptical, 439 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:02.859 but then you've got people who are claiming to have 440 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:06.759 the experiences also skeptical of their experience. And we see 441 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:10.460 this pretty consistently with near death experiences, right? We see 442 00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:12.500 this with people who claim to have had a near 443 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:14.359 death experience and they're like, yeah, it was so crazy. 444 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:16.640 I don't even know if that was really my experience. 445 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:21.950 And that would be consistent with other out of body experiences. 446 00:30:22.390 --> 00:30:24.880 So if I tell you like you had a dream and, 447 00:30:25.130 --> 00:30:28.049 but you remember that you were conscious and that you 448 00:30:28.089 --> 00:30:30.950 were seeing your bedroom and you were on the ceiling 449 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:34.039 and you could hear other people in other parts of 450 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.279 the house and you floated through the hallway. How do 451 00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:41.859 I argue with that? I can argue by saying that 452 00:30:41.900 --> 00:30:45.859 doesn't align with reality. We don't do that in real life, 453 00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:48.509 but it's going to be really hard for me to 454 00:30:48.549 --> 00:30:53.940 convince you otherwise. But we need to be careful about 455 00:30:54.079 --> 00:30:58.140 accepting it as true simply, simply because somebody says that 456 00:30:58.180 --> 00:31:04.809 it happened, especially when we're talking about potentially spiritual, um, experiences. 457 00:31:05.329 --> 00:31:08.369 I started this podcast, Melanie talking about the history of 458 00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:13.529 it and with the theosophical society, they are very interested 459 00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:17.589 in spiritual experiences, which is one of the reasons why 460 00:31:17.809 --> 00:31:20.910 astral projection was one of the things they focused on. Um, 461 00:31:21.369 --> 00:31:25.440 If someone like somebody who is probably a member of 462 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:30.519 the Theosophical Society already believes that human beings have an 463 00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:34.900 astral body that can separate from the physical body, then 464 00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:39.650 anything they dream of or any kind of thing they 465 00:31:39.670 --> 00:31:44.670 might encounter in meditation might equate to them as confirmation 466 00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:49.430 that out-of-body experiences like astral projection is really happening to them. 467 00:31:50.660 --> 00:31:54.220 And then, of course, they get confirmation when they go 468 00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:57.029 online and they search for it. And they're like, oh, 469 00:31:57.049 --> 00:32:00.069 did I just have an out-of-body experience? You search for 470 00:32:00.130 --> 00:32:03.710 it and you end up on Reddit or some other 471 00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:09.150 site or YouTube or TikTok where you've got maybe thousands 472 00:32:09.289 --> 00:32:14.029 of people who have given testimony saying, I experienced this 473 00:32:14.170 --> 00:32:18.690 out-of-body experience or I experienced astral projection or even like 474 00:32:18.950 --> 00:32:22.769 how-to series on how to have astral projection happen in 475 00:32:22.809 --> 00:32:27.029 your own life. And again, if we're trying to have 476 00:32:27.049 --> 00:32:31.019 a conversation with somebody who believes that this is their experience, 477 00:32:31.059 --> 00:32:34.920 and they see all of this confirmation from culture, we've 478 00:32:34.940 --> 00:32:37.339 got to be really gentle in the way that we 479 00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:43.180 approach the conversation. And we need to stay ourselves firmly 480 00:32:43.420 --> 00:32:48.029 in truth. Because The reality is, is Christians aren't going 481 00:32:48.049 --> 00:32:50.089 to want to mess with those spirits on the astral plane, 482 00:32:50.410 --> 00:32:53.250 even if they do exist. And we need to be 483 00:32:53.289 --> 00:32:58.089 able to speak that into reality, into the person's life. 484 00:32:59.769 --> 00:33:03.759 So that makes me wonder if there are any Christians 485 00:33:03.930 --> 00:33:07.119 out there trying to reach the astral plane. What did you, 486 00:33:07.220 --> 00:33:10.039 as you were researching this topic, what did you find out? 487 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:12.180 I mean, are there Christians who are trying to do 488 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:14.960 that and want to participate in this kind of out-of-body experience? 489 00:33:16.190 --> 00:33:19.369 As we seem to talk about quite frequently, Melanie, is 490 00:33:19.569 --> 00:33:21.890 I'm always kind of surprised when I find the answer 491 00:33:21.910 --> 00:33:24.049 to this question. And I don't know why, because the 492 00:33:24.150 --> 00:33:28.720 answer is consistent. Yes, there are Christians who are trying 493 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:32.420 to practice astral projection. Not a lot of them are 494 00:33:32.859 --> 00:33:36.460 giving full on testimonies about it, but it's definitely in 495 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.880 the church, just like things like reincarnation or crystal use 496 00:33:41.319 -->

00:33:45.109 or any of the astrology that Right. There are Christians 497 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.990 who are buying into this. It is a smaller percentage. 498 00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:51.750 I don't have an exact number, but if it's only 499 00:33:51.750 --> 00:33:54.490 10 percent of the population in the world that claims 500 00:33:54.529 --> 00:33:58.420 to have astral projection experiences, it's probably going to be 501 00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:02.880 less than that number of Christians. Right. But again, it's 502 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:05.680 not always easy to find the answers to that question 503 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.110 in particular, because not everybody is going to be bold 504 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:12.090 enough to proclaim that they believe a certain new age 505 00:34:12.150 --> 00:34:16.889 thing or a cult thing. That said, it doesn't represent 506 00:34:17.010 --> 00:34:21.530 mainstream Christian teaching. This isn't something that you could go 507 00:34:21.590 --> 00:34:24.130 to any church on Sunday morning and the pastor is 508 00:34:24.150 --> 00:34:27.869 going to be teaching you how to participate in astral projection, 509 00:34:28.309 --> 00:34:31.869 at least not with regard to a Bible teaching, firmly 510 00:34:31.909 --> 00:34:35.670 grounded in truth kind of church. With regard to Christians 511 00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:39.030 who might be trying it, I have to ask myself, why? 512 00:34:39.429 --> 00:34:43.699 Why would a Christian want to try astral projection? What's 513 00:34:43.909 --> 00:34:47.210 in it for them? If you don't believe that you're 514 00:34:47.230 --> 00:34:51.269 going to become God, what's the goal? One answer could 515 00:34:51.329 --> 00:34:55.969 be that perhaps they want to explore more of God's creation. 516 00:34:56.769 --> 00:34:58.730 They want to see all the dimensions because they want 517 00:34:58.750 --> 00:35:03.989 to know everything that God created. Others might actually be 518 00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:09.889 interested in their consciousness and their soul. Can they tap 519 00:35:10.050 --> 00:35:13.820 into the reality of what their soul is and Can 520 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:18.079 their soul be disconnected from their physical body while they 521 00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:23.469 are still alive? Others might just simply be curious. They've 522 00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:25.710 heard of, and that's kind of my concern about even 523 00:35:25.789 --> 00:35:28.090 talking about topics like some of the ones that we cover, 524 00:35:28.110 --> 00:35:31.230 because I don't want Christians to stumble upon the podcast 525 00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:34.349 and be like, oh, that sounds interesting. I should try that. 526 00:35:34.690 --> 00:35:37.969 That's the opposite of what I'm trying to say here. 527 00:35:37.989 --> 00:35:41.590 But again, Christians might be curious about what it would 528 00:35:41.610 --> 00:35:45.630 be like to do astral projection or what the astral 529 00:35:45.650 --> 00:35:49.449 plane is. They might be interested in learning more about 530 00:35:49.489 --> 00:35:53.329 the spiritual realm. And how do I know why Christians 531 00:35:53.389 --> 00:35:56.219 would do what they're, why would they would want to? 532 00:35:56.760 --> 00:35:59.519 You ask them. If you're in a conversation with a 533 00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:02.619 Christian friend and they're talking to you about how they 534 00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:08.280 just started practicing astral projection, the first question could be, why? Why? 535 00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:13.320 What's your interest in astral projection? And once you have 536 00:36:13.340 --> 00:36:15.880 an answer, it can get a lot easier to then 537 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:21.690 have a full conversation and give warnings. It's more thoughtful, right? 538 00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:24.690 We're thinking about the actual person in front of us, 539 00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:27.730 not just making assumptions based on what you heard on 540 00:36:27.769 --> 00:36:29.469 a podcast or read in an article. 541 00:36:30.929 --> 00:36:33.510 So, you know, just given all that and that there 542 00:36:33.570 --> 00:36:39.179 is some interest by Christians, is astral projection important? biblical. 543 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:42.980 I mean, can you be a Christian and practice astral projection? 544 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.000 Well, this might be controversial. I have no idea if 545 00:36:47.019 --> 00:36:50.760 I'm being honest, but no, I would say Christians should 546 00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:56.010 not participate in astral projection. That said, there's like not 547 00:36:56.119 --> 00:36:59.429 a line in the Bible that says astral projection is 548 00:36:59.489 --> 00:37:04.590 prohibited or you're sinning if you participate in astral projection. 549 00:37:05.090 --> 00:37:07.829 So you can't search in the Bible and find a 550 00:37:07.849 --> 00:37:11.739 verse like that. But there is sort of a framework, Melanie, 551 00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:16.739 in scripture that gives us some intuition as to maybe 552 00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.340 the practices we could be involved in and those we 553 00:37:19.380 --> 00:37:23.070 should avoid. And I really think that astral projection is 554 00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:27.010 one of those mark and avoid kind of scenarios. For example, 555 00:37:27.130 --> 00:37:31.329 in Deuteronomy... We think it's 18. That's where we get 556 00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:37.789 our prohibitions against divination and sorcery and mediums and inquiring 557 00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:42.989 of the dead. In Leviticus 19, we also get warnings 558 00:37:43.170 --> 00:37:47.809 against mediums. Then one of the things that I saw 559 00:37:48.230 --> 00:37:52.150 as sort of an argument in support of astral projection 560 00:37:52.190 --> 00:37:55.739 for Christians was in the New Testament. We see an 561 00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:00.619 experience described in 2 Corinthians 12, where Paul is talking 562

00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:03.599 about being caught up to the third heaven, and he 563 00:38:03.659 --> 00:38:06.679 says he doesn't know whether he was in the body 564 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.039 or out of the body. And so some people might 565 00:38:09.159 --> 00:38:13.610 twist that scripture to say, see, out-of-body experiences like astral 566 00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:17.969 projection are totally fine. But the important piece of that 567 00:38:18.449 --> 00:38:21.610 is Paul doesn't turn around and say, okay, Christians, this 568 00:38:21.670 --> 00:38:24.230 is how you experience that. This is how you can 569 00:38:24.289 --> 00:38:28.989 reproduce what I did and get yourselves to the third heaven. 570 00:38:29.809 --> 00:38:33.590 In fact, it's a revelation that God gave him. It 571 00:38:33.650 --> 00:38:37.050 wasn't a technique that he learned or that he told 572 00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:43.679 Christians to pursue. So Paul's experience is actually not the 573 00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:49.199 same as divination. It was just an experience with God 574 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:53.739 that God allowed him to have. So Christians ultimately... need 575 00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:59.480 to be really cautious and they need to not pursue 576 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:06.159 astral projection. That's my bottom line. I'm going to just 577 00:39:06.179 --> 00:39:08.679 play all my cards here and show them that I 578 00:39:08.739 --> 00:39:15.119 don't think that a Christian should pursue astral projection, especially 579 00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:22.599 when they are engaging with spiritual entities that they don't know. Right. 580 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:26.440 Like we don't know what these entities are. This is 581 00:39:26.489 --> 00:39:29.909 the same warning we give when Christians think that they. 582 00:39:29.980 --> 00:39:34.039 could maybe participate at a Halloween party with Ouija boards 583 00:39:34.659 --> 00:39:38.659 or that they could maybe go and get tarot cards 584 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.199 read or they could go meet with a psychic. It's 585 00:39:41.489 --> 00:39:45.789 always about, okay, who are you actually interacting with? And 586 00:39:45.989 --> 00:39:50.329 for me, you're not guaranteed to interact with a good 587 00:39:50.409 --> 00:39:54.409 spirit when you're dabbling in things like astral projection. I 588 00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:59.320 would say, again, we have to make sure that there's 589 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:04.659 a distinction between pursued or induced out-of-body experiences like astral 590 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:08.489 projection versus spontaneous ones like near-death experiences. 591 00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:13.449 So how should Christians be equipped by your article in 592 00:40:13.489 --> 00:40:17.269 our conversation if some of their friends or family members 593 00:40:17.409 --> 00:40:21.469 are seriously considering trying to attempt astral projection? 594 00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:27.219 This is one of my favorite questions because I love 595 00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:30.460 the heart behind it. I love that there is a 596 00:40:30.659 --> 00:40:34.880 desire to have a conversation rather than just to shut 597 00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:38.840 them out or write them off. So if somebody starts 598 00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:42.800 to tell you that they had an out-of-body experience, my 599 00:40:42.860 --> 00:40:46.389 first suggestion is to listen to them. And listen to them. 600 00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:49.559 I think for Christians, wouldn't you say it's more like NDEs? Oh, 601 00:40:49.900 --> 00:40:52.159 I died and went to heaven. Yeah. 602 00:40:52.659 --> 00:40:56.340 Yeah. Yeah. So like we want to listen. We want 603 00:40:56.360 --> 00:40:59.139 to know what they're talking about. And we need to 604 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:03.409 ask them, you know, what they think it means. Right. Okay. 605 00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:07.349 You're claiming that perhaps you had this experience. What does 606 00:41:07.389 --> 00:41:11.809 that mean to you? And then we get to have that, 607 00:41:12.469 --> 00:41:17.340 you know, discussion about, well, is your experience reality? Is 608 00:41:17.389 --> 00:41:20.250 it possible that you could have been dreaming? How do 609 00:41:20.289 --> 00:41:24.110 you know what caused the experience? Any number of things 610 00:41:24.369 --> 00:41:27.289 could have happened. And we want to make sure that 611 00:41:27.309 --> 00:41:34.139 we're asking them all sorts of things. So I would 612 00:41:34.179 --> 00:41:36.599 say that these are probably going to come up more 613 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:42.719 frequently as we get closer to Halloween, as we get 614 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:49.590 closer to experiences where culturally some cultures are trying to 615 00:41:49.710 --> 00:41:55.690 interact with their deceased relatives, and it might seem enticing 616 00:41:55.769 --> 00:41:59.800 to them to engage in astral projection if there's perhaps 617 00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:03.860 a chance that they could engage with their lost loved ones. 618 00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:07.139 And we need to come from a place of wanting 619 00:42:07.219 --> 00:42:11.139 to understand, and we want to come from a place 620 00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:17.030 of discernment as well, because The Bible constantly tells us 621 00:42:17.090 --> 00:42:22.849 to test what we encounter rather than simply accepting every 622 00:42:22.889 --> 00:42:27.610 spiritual claim. And Melanie, this is the season where all 623 00:42:27.639 --> 00:42:31.599 of the spiritual claims happen that are usually not aligned 624 00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:36.780 with Christianity and give us lots of opportunities to expound, right? 625 00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:40.980 And to reveal truth in darkness. This is not necessarily 626 00:42:41.039 --> 00:42:44.329 about like, Should I go to a fall festival? This is, 627 00:42:45.389 --> 00:42:50.500 should we practice astral projection together at a Halloween party 628

00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:56.019 one night? No, you shouldn't. And that is because we 629 00:42:56.059 --> 00:43:00.099 can't believe, like 1 John 4 says, we can't believe 630 00:43:00.219 --> 00:43:03.159 every spirit, right? We have to test the spirits and 631 00:43:03.250 --> 00:43:06.030 see whether they are from God. And from what I 632 00:43:06.090 --> 00:43:10.550 can tell, what's found in the astral projection realm, the 633 00:43:10.650 --> 00:43:14.840 astral plane, probably isn't from God. The thing is that 634 00:43:14.900 --> 00:43:18.000 God does not hide himself from us. We don't have 635 00:43:18.039 --> 00:43:22.480 to go to another dimension to find God. He has 636 00:43:22.889 --> 00:43:27.190 already revealed himself to us through Christ. And that's a 637 00:43:27.230 --> 00:43:30.670 really important idea that we need to hold firm to 638 00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:34.010 when we're confronted with kind of the creepy crawly things 639 00:43:34.329 --> 00:43:38.469 of this season. So asking yourself, like, do you know 640 00:43:38.570 --> 00:43:42.300 what you believe about astral projection? Do you understand the 641 00:43:42.340 --> 00:43:46.119 word occult? Do you understand what spiritualism is? Do you 642 00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:49.480 understand what are the things that our kids are being 643 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.039 confronted with? And can you talk about it? And that 644 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:57.639 comes with practice. You can definitely practice this with a friend, right? 645 00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:02.219 I will run things by my husband from time to time. Like, ooh, 646 00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:04.929 should I say that? Or would this be appropriate if 647 00:44:05.469 --> 00:44:10.750 I told that story? One other thing is that I really... 648 00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:16.219 want Christians to remember that we need to keep our 649 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:21.090 focus on Christ. It could be really easy to lose 650 00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:25.050 Christ in this season. We always hear Jesus is the 651 00:44:25.090 --> 00:44:27.510 reason for this season, but the truth is Jesus is 652 00:44:27.530 --> 00:44:31.250 the reason for all seasons. And it's all seasons that 653 00:44:31.269 --> 00:44:33.889 we should be talking about Christ and focusing on Christ. 654 00:44:34.369 --> 00:44:38.449 And if we don't have Christ-centered relationships where we can 655 00:44:38.590 --> 00:44:43.699 share truth openly, with our Christian friends, but even Christ-centered 656 00:44:43.739 --> 00:44:48.980 relationships within ourselves with non-Christian folks, it gets a lot 657 00:44:49.059 --> 00:44:53.849 harder for us to show Christ when there are so 658 00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:59.469 many occultic things happening around us from displays in people's 659 00:44:59.510 --> 00:45:04.070 yards to parties that we're invited to, to even costumes 660 00:45:04.329 --> 00:45:08.909 that we see the night of trick-or-treating. Keeping Christ close 661 00:45:08.949 --> 00:45:12.840 to us helps us reveal him more closely to others. 662 00:45:13.510 --> 00:45:17.349 And for me, that is the key. We could get 663 00:45:17.409 --> 00:45:21.510 wrapped up in all of these questions about spiritualism and 664 00:45:22.030 --> 00:45:25.429 going to different dimensions and all the other things that 665 00:45:25.510 --> 00:45:30.360 new age people or new agers believe. But instead, we 666 00:45:30.380 --> 00:45:33.480 should be mostly wrapped up in the personhood and the 667 00:45:33.539 --> 00:45:37.519 godhood of Jesus and who he is in our lives. 668 00:45:37.940 --> 00:45:40.219 so that he can be revealed to everyone. 669 00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:46.110 Well, thanks for this very interesting conversation about astral projection. 670 00:45:46.130 --> 00:45:50.389 I'm sure not all of our listeners have heard about that. Well, 671 00:45:50.570 --> 00:45:53.789 on a much lighter note, something fun, all of us 672 00:45:54.369 --> 00:45:59.360 will either be giving or getting candy out during this month, 673 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:01.199 whether you go to a trunk or treat at your 674 00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:04.039 church or you do it in your neighborhood. So, Lindsay, 675 00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:09.050 would you rather eat chocolate candy or non-chocolate candy like 676 00:46:09.170 --> 00:46:10.530 Skittles and things like that. 677 00:46:11.349 --> 00:46:14.619 Definitely chocolate girl. I love chocolate, all kinds of chocolate. 678 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:19.039 So you're a team chocolate. Well, thank you so much, Lindsay, 679 00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:23.099 for being a guest again on the Postmodern Realities Podcast. 680 00:46:23.380 --> 00:46:26.170 And we can look forward to hearing from Lindsay again. 681 00:46:26.210 --> 00:46:28.909 You won't want to miss our next episode with her 682 00:46:28.969 --> 00:46:32.550 this month. She will be delving into the topic of dousing, 683 00:46:33.030 --> 00:46:35.369 which is one of the most popular articles we have 684 00:46:35.449 --> 00:46:40.750 on our website and it's consistently in the top 25 685 00:46:40.750 --> 00:46:44.190 articles accessed on our site. And we haven't had an 686 00:46:44.230 --> 00:46:46.769 update on that article for, I think, about 40 years. 687 00:46:46.889 --> 00:46:49.969 So we'll look forward to hearing Lindsay talk to us 688 00:46:49.989 --> 00:46:52.159 about that later this month. So thanks for being a 689 00:46:52.179 --> 00:46:54.320 guest again on the Postmodern Realities Podcast. 690 00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:55.260 Thanks, Melanie. 691 00:46:56.199 --> 00:47:01.739 You've been listening to episode 520 of the Postmodern Realities 692 00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:07.139 Podcast from the Christian Research Journal. Today's guest was Lindsay Mendenwald. 693 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:10.760 She has written an exclusive online feature article for the 694 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:14.989 Fringe Files column in the Christian Research Journal. The article 695 00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:22.230 is called Astral Projection, Biblical Discernment, and Out-of-Body Experiences. You 696 00:47:22.269 --> 00:47:27.550 can read this article for free at equip.org. Please make 697 00:47:27.630 --> 00:47:30.670 sure you're subscribing to all of the podcasts available from 698 00:47:30.690 --> 00:47:35.590 the Christian Research Institute. We have our flagship podcast, the 699 00:47:35.630 --> 00:47:40.090 daily Bible Answer Man podcast from CRI President Hank Hanegraaff. 700 00:47:40.610 --> 00:47:44.730 This is a question and answer format that is available 701 00:47:44.769 --> 00:47:48.210 Monday through Friday, and also there's a best of the 702 00:47:48.250 --> 00:47:52.110 week episode on Saturdays. You'll want to make sure that 703 00:47:52.170 --> 00:47:56.389 you are subscribed to Hank Unplugged, and in this podcast, 704 00:47:56.409 --> 00:48:01.050 Hank will take you beyond soundbites and into thoughtful, in-depth 705 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:07.059 explorations of critical issues that are confronting Christians today. Hank 706 00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:12.780 draws on scripture, history, theology, and culture, and will equip 707 00:48:13.219 --> 00:48:17.449 listeners to think Christianly about the questions that matter most 708 00:48:18.010 --> 00:48:22.110 and how to contend for the faith with knowledge and 709 00:48:22.150 --> 00:48:26.090 with wisdom. Of course, we have our two podcasts from 710 00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:29.530 the Christian Research Journal, the one you're listening to right now, 711 00:48:29.650 --> 00:48:35.719 Postmodern Realities, which is author interviews and discussions based on 712 00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.469 the articles that you will find on our website, equip.org. 713 00:48:40.070 --> 00:48:44.670 Also our sister podcast, which is audio articles of the 714 00:48:44.789 --> 00:48:47.889 articles that we're talking about in postmodern realities. It is 715 00:48:47.949 --> 00:48:51.750 the full audio article and it is the podcast called 716 00:48:51.829 --> 00:48:56.489 Christian Research Journal Reads. And you won't want to miss 717 00:48:56.690 --> 00:48:59.730 out on our very newest podcast. It was only launched 718 00:48:59.769 --> 00:49:04.599 this year in 2026. It's called Commitment to Reality. It's 719 00:49:04.659 --> 00:49:05.949 from Dave Hanegraaff. 720 00:49:06.860 --> 00:49:12.610 All of our podcasts are available on every podcasting subscription platform. 721 00:49:13.230 --> 00:49:16.489 So make sure you add in all of these. And 722 00:49:16.570 --> 00:49:21.210 as always, thank you so much for your partner. and 723 00:49:21.230 --> 00:49:22.409 for listening