สำเนาบทสนทนา 🔗
Zelda Shleifer: welcome to our podcast. I am here with Mike Fine, longtime standup comic. Today we're gonna be talking about beginnings and openings. And the beginnings or the opening of a story has a lot of jobs. You have to introduce the backgrounds You have to hook the readers, get them invested, and you have to lay the groundwork for the story world.
Mike: You have to basically set the table. know.
Zelda Shleifer: Exactly. Yeah, it does a few things. The job of the first scene, especially does a few things and it introduces us to the character and to the kind of key players around. Actually, I was reading according to Anatomy of Story, a book by John Trudy. He has an interesting way of looking at the openings for books. When he's talking about the openings, it's within the context of writing a story. But he has three different ways to start. One is a community start where the world is, is everything is right in the world. You know, people are happy. It's kind of like an ideal world, but the main character has a problem that has to be solved. and because of this problem, for himself as a character, he's vulnerable to what he calls attack. So that's one way is a community start. The second way is.
Mike: And these are non-fiction. Or fiction. Okay, fiction.
Zelda Shleifer: this was actually fiction. it's like, you you think of, everyone brings in movies, you know, but it's because there's that visual aspect. But basically, it's like, where you see Sandra Bullock was in one of her romcoms. I don't remember what it was called. But anyway, you see her working world where she's this professional woman and she has her colleague. And you kind of see the whole world, right? You see the world, the community working together. You see the assistant, coming to tell her something. You see her fighting with her, counterpart, that kind of thing. And so that would be a community start because it's showing the world the person lives in. The world is operating fine, but the person has their character flaw or a relationship flaw and... that is where the jumping point is. So some stories do open like that. The second one is where there's a problem with the whole world and the character has a psychological need, a moral need. things are so wrong and it has to be corrected. I'm trying to think of a good example of that. can you think of one where you start with the problem world basically, or the big problem that the person is facing.
Mike: Well, it's interesting. just to back up one second, my area is more in the area of comedy, but putting that aside, in my personal opinion, when it comes to writing, I must have read thousands of books And In my opinion, there's no wrong way, let's say, in terms of the beginning. If they're able to hook me, great. For example, Quentin Tarantino, if he watches movies, he basically starts with the ending first and then works backwards. He basically gives you the ending of the movie right in the very beginning and then he does flashbacks. Yeah, Grant is Quentin Tarantino, his mind works differently than a lot of other people, but that approach of starting with, here's the ending, and now we're going to basically unpack everything, the entire story. To me, it could work either way, or in many different ways.
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah, but
Mike: What
Zelda Shleifer: that's a story structure thing you know, he introduced that, I think with pulp fiction.
Mike: Yeah, the Kill Bill series also, but where you did like Star Wars, you know, it's a whole, you know, like, thought you knew everything and then in the sequel, that's going to explain what happened or the cliffhanger, if there's a cliffhanger in the beginning, to me, like, make me want to like if there's too much setting up, you know, like I was saying before about like setting the table, you'll have some people that will, basically, they'll paint the picture of the weather, the it's a hot and humid night, they'll spend so much time just painting a picture and it's like, just get to it what's the story about, you know, okay, I understand the importance of of setting the scenery but give me something more than just, the temperature, the atmosphere, the climate, you know.
Zelda Shleifer: What do mean, like the mood?
Mike: Yeah, the mood. a lot of books, they'll spend so much time just trying to set the tone, the mood, and okay, it's nice, but let's get to substance. Let's get to the meat and potatoes of it.
Zelda Shleifer: Right, so yeah, so that's a common technique to, start in the middle of something. And, that's, one technique, but not every story has to start in that same way. You could start with dialogue. That's more interesting because dialogue in and of itself is action dialogue is a form of keeping things like emotion or movement. So that's one way you want to dramatize key aspects of the character, which you know what's really good example of that. he's the travel agent and his big and his book that he wrote Hang on one second, let me see. Accidental Tourist.
Mike: Mm-mm.
Zelda Shleifer: That's the one. the more I read about... writing, the more I love this novel because it does, it really dramatizes how bitter this man is. he's so mean and just miserable. He's so sad, you know? And so that opening is amazing. But in the book is it's different than the movie. Cause obviously you can't have all that rumination, you know? But,
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: the book actually starts this whole scene, the first scene with him and his wife and kind of how dead their marriage is and how dead he feels inside The whole scene, they're stuck in this rainstorm and the rainstorm itself he stares out the window at the windshield wipers. And I just remember reading and it's like, his wife is basically saying their marriage is dead and it's over and everything is wrong in their world.
Mike: Well, I guess it's so very easily relatable, that's why you... No, but on a serious note, that probably the reason why you took to it... I was
Load full transcript
joking sort of about the relatable part. No, For example, when it comes to what makes things funny is relatable, Books or stories, know, That's why I never cared for sci-fi. It's too obscure, I have to suspend
Zelda Shleifer: See.
Mike: the imagination too much. I like things that are easily relatable. Even, you like you're just painting that picture. It's, you know, even if it's not the bad marriage, could be you have like a bad day at work or just like stress, you know, like you could relate to like that, that roller coaster that is being painted, you know, or being set up in the beginning, you know.
Zelda Shleifer: Right, right. It is the accidental tourist. That's the book and the movie. It's a famous movie. It's, yeah. Yeah.
Mike: That was a famous movie. Yeah, that was a great movie. I saw a long time ago. Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: And the book is really good, but that beginning scene where it's like, I don't know, like four pages and they're just sitting in a car in the rainstorm and that set the mood, it set the tone, it set the relational problems and just the whole voice really of the character also. but it's, go ahead.
Mike: There's a... What were you saying? No, what were you saying?
Zelda Shleifer: It's not, a movie with a ton of action. Like the, the big driver of the story is the, character. So, you know, it's interesting how she uses the setting like even just the weather and stuff to kind of set the mood but the more I learn about writing the more I love that book because it is so bored to make a good story that is basically purely character driven and not plot driven.
Mike: One of my favorite, and I'm not, you know, I've read some fiction, I like mostly reading like autobiographies, but one of my favorite books, there's an author by the name of Saul Bellow who is just amazing. And he wrote a book called The Herzog. And same thing, they won like tons of awards, a very famous book. And it really wasn't a lot of action, the guy just had a horrible marriage, just a very humdrum type of boring, monotonous type of life, it was just very... Yeah, like you saying, character driven, the way he would... the character, was just like... anybody who's reading it could find something relatable to the character that you don't need to have like all these bells and whistles and know action going on to make it to make the reader feel engaged.
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah, I'm not sure if it's like the advent of us getting a lot of short soundbites and whatever But I feel like there's so much shock value now, given to books like the plot has to be like so ridiculous, know, it builds on ridiculous events and it's less, born out of the character and what the character is facing and more out of like, oh, the middle got kind of sagging. So we're just gonna, you know, bring in some outrageous, shock value plot point in order to keep things going. So there's a certain subtlety. to the art.
Mike: it's not only that it's you know and and not to sidetrack when it comes to to let's say comedy impressionist used to be like a very big thing you know where you would do impersonations of people and they they'd say how come there's not a lot of impressionists today and i heard this from one of my friends will join who is one of the greatest impressionists and heard this from other people also, it's like, who are you going to impersonate today? Like back in the day, you're doing the impersonation of Jimmy Stewart, you're doing the impersonation of Cary Grant. Everyone knew who these people were and, you know, they were characters. But, to do impressions, how can I went tell you're doing the impression of Mark Ruffalo? Like, who are these people, the actors today or the people you'd be impersonating other than, let's say, someone like Donald Trump or like very few people are like larger than life they could actually impersonate. So getting back to, know, the writers today also are not of the same caliber that used to be like, you know, the John Steinbecks, the Hemingways, there was a skill and also readers were also like conditioned what they're about to read. And I think today, if there's not some sort of crazy hawk or some sort of, angle, you know, like, why would anyone pick up the book or buy the book in the first place because these household names, you know, of these great writers are gone. So for a new writer to try and make, they have to come up with some sort of absurd angle or catch or something of shock value. Like you were saying, to try and get the reader in and if all they have is to try and get you in by, trying to tease you in by some shock value, it's like, good luck sitting through past the first chapter of that book, you know, if that's what they're relying upon to...
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah, but I actually don't agree. I think first of all, that's the most depressing perspective I've heard is that all the good writers are the old writers. I don't think that's necessarily true.
Mike: and not not not all of them but anybody and their sister could you know self-publish everyone considers themselves a published author the bar became lower so it the field became a lot more diluted so it's harder yeah this is my pain to find the the the quality because it's so diluted
Zelda Shleifer: So for fiction, I don't find that. I do find that
Mike: Okay.
Zelda Shleifer: the quality has gone up. Not for fast fiction, you know, but
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: because there's so much access to what to do. in order to actually get traditionally published in this day and age, it has to be submitted almost like perfect. You know, it's like what is submitted is already so polished. but I do, I do hear what you're saying. think that stylistically things have changed, which I think is a good thing because it's changed with us watching TV and having other types of media thrown at us. So we don't need like long meandering, narration or anything like that. And it's a lot more vivid, you know, the writing because we do want
to focus more on the action. But I do wanna get back to the openings at the beginning, we wanna dramatize the key aspects of the character, that's going to affect the rest of the story. So it has to be related to like what they're gonna be facing in the story. And, you want to show that the character begins with some type of like limited perspective of the world that is causing them trouble in their world. So right now I'm working on a middle grade novel. And so at the beginning, I'm trying to make it very obvious, like that this student, this kid who I'm writing about, you know, he's disruptive. He's kind of always seeking attention.
Mike: No.
Zelda Shleifer: Like right away in the beginning, I want to show that this is a problem. Now, even kids who are going to be reading the book, they know when a kid should get in trouble in class, you know, when he's acting out being...
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: you know, disrespectful to the teacher, things like that. So that's something I'm trying to do in the book I'm writing now.
Mike: And has there ever been an opening
Zelda Shleifer: Go ahead.
Mike: where there's no adversity being faced by the protagonist, where everything's just like peachy and everything's just perfect?
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah, I mean, in, romance where the protagonist doesn't think she needs anyone.
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: That is where the world their world is perfect, or it's going well. And then they have to learn that being so independent, like how to broaden their world to include someone else. So something like that would be a good example
Mike: But that sounds like something that's like slow burning then, it's interesting you mentioned before, like what you're writing about, the disruptive kid, know, people like to see action, tension or act, you know, something, but where you're just saying with like romance novels, you know, that's probably why they're like 600 pages, because there's a lot of just talking about how i'm an independent woman and I don't need no man in my life and you know,
Zelda Shleifer: Now that was just an example of the type of story where the world starts off perfect, and the
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: person grows by learning to include other people. I mean, it could be the same thing with Rain Man right? Isn't that the
Mike: That's a movie Rain Man.
Zelda Shleifer: movie Rain Man? Yeah. His
Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: world starts off basically perfect. I mean, he's not,
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: the world starts off perfect. And then at the end, he learns to integrate, his brother into his world. But that's not a romance novel, but it's the same type of story where at the beginning, it's obvious that there's some character growth necessary, but his world doesn't change because of something like that. There's an external change where all of a sudden he has to take care of his brother.
Mike: I would think that you know, or at least in in any interesting or book for that matter a fiction or
nonfiction. It's it's a evolution of the character does the character you know evolve or Devolve, know,
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, basically by showing even in a normal world, like whatever the normal world is for that person, that's where it starts. What hooks the reader in that case is something happening in the story, even if the story world is quote unquote perfect because they're starting in what they believe the main character believes is there, you know, it's just the normal world. So there's two things that we're talking about. One is the introduction to the character arc, which is like with Rain Man, we see, you know, what a jerk he is. And So, you want to set up the character arc. But as a side elements, the main character usually wants something or needs something or is trying to, you know, there's kind of like a micro story at the beginning. where there's like a scenario, a scenario outside of the character arc, there's just something going on, right? With what the person wants in
Mike: but
Zelda Shleifer: that main scene.
Mike: fill that void or or that lacking in the in the that character or the person
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah, yeah. So that would be the character arc or the main conflict or the setup for the, toward the main conflict. But the beginning also sets the tone and the attitude of the character, the tone, the voice, in that way, it kind of does double duty Okay, so here is an example by Chris Sykes. This is the shortest story known to man. it is this
Mike: How short?
Zelda Shleifer: six words. This is the
Mike: too long.
Zelda Shleifer: example for sale baby shoes never worn.
Mike: Read the story again?
Zelda Shleifer: For sale, baby shoes never worn. that's from Chris Sykes in How to Craft a Great Story. He brings that as an example. So it has a story.
Mike: That's probably the worst example I've ever heard in my entire- why is that a first of all, why is that even a story? That's just like,
Zelda Shleifer: Well, it's a sentence. Yes. It's also story in that it contains all story elements. The main, the key being that there is conflict in it. Okay. It has a hook. It has a character because it implies that there's a mother and a baby who was not actualized. It has conflicts, the viewpoints. It has theme and tone and genre actually. it's really more to demonstrate how to pack a punch, right? Like how much weight you can put into a short component that you can, that all those things, like when you write an opening for a novel that all these elements have to be there. conflict being the main one, but the conflict has to kind of tie into the rest of what's there. You can't just have conflict for the sake of conflict.
Mike: Now, just out of curiosity, how much of a retainer do you get by this guy that you're pushing this garb? It's a pile of crap, that's what it is. That's not even a story. It's dribble.
Zelda Shleifer: Okay.
Mike: One word to describe it, it's lazy. That's not a story. You just gave this whole interpretation and you read into it meaning about how this baby never came to... It could have been, I bought a present for my sister's kid and then I found out he already had a pair of shoes and I lost the receipt so I can't return it. that could be the interpret. There could be a million different ways to interpret that. But how you go off on this, you know, thinking that maybe the kid got aborted or something happened, so great, you like you made it into like some drama. But For someone to say, I'm going to write a short story, it's like I come up with like a bumper sticker and say that's a masterpiece, know, it's woo, it's like avant-garde art. It's dribble, I'm sorry. You're not going to convince me it's not a matter of fiction. It's a matter of like, I could smell BS a mile away. That sounds like some person
Zelda Shleifer: You
Mike: trying to make something like very artsy, like avant-garde, you know, it's like the people that will put like a banana, staple it to like a white, you know, oak tag and call it abstract art. It's nothing. It's dribble. To me that could be, you know, like you gave it some depth, some meaning, and you know, if you really look at it, it's just someone who's lazy trying to like push the envelope, trying to get people to think, and anyone who actually sits there and thinks of it other than being dreck, it's like, you know,
Zelda Shleifer: okay, I get it. I get where you're coming from. But I will say this,
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: that the beginning does have to set set a mood, right?
Mike: What's the mood?
Zelda Shleifer: for that sentence slash story.
Mike: Yet. Yet, yet, yet, yet, for, for that story, for that masterpiece, what's the mood?
Zelda Shleifer: I, that, yeah, that the mood is sadness, loss.
Mike: Why is it sad? How did you come up with loss? There was nothing to indicate loss. That was your interpretation.
Zelda Shleifer: Right, I understand that, there is an element of interpretation, right? For, you know, like I was saying with the rain, is a rainstorm always bad? No, but it helps set the mood, right? Staring at windshield wipers,
Mike: Okay.
Zelda Shleifer: you could be spacing out, but it sets the mood. And the, know, the accidental tourist, there's always gonna be interpretation of everyday events. it's that's that's the beauty of the art, right of writing. So that you're setting, I mean, even really for comedy too, right, because you're taking something that's so commonplace every day and you're putting a different spin, a different interpretation, a different application of it. And that's what you know, so that's always going to be part of writing part of story is that the element of interpretation, but
Mike: Yeah, yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: If you interpret it the way I see it as implied, then yeah, there are these elements to story. I can see why you're saying it's a sentence, it's not a story, it doesn't qualify, blah, blah.
Mike: But that's your... You're interpreting it and saying that it's
implied for it to be said. What if he said instead of... Baby shoes, what if he said diamond ring?
Zelda Shleifer: I know, right? That has its own story. For sale, diamond ring never warm. You're right.
Mike: Yeah, well, what if he said seal boat, you know, it could have been the guy could have saved up his entire life savings He planned to take his wife on a round-the-world trip and then he
Zelda Shleifer: What a pet.
Mike: gets hit by a bus, you know, so you can
Zelda Shleifer: So what, you're saying every desperately seeking Susan tagline has its own story and you're 100 % right.
Mike: No, what I'm saying is that it's lazy when you expect the reader to have to do the work of doing the interpretation because they're not able to craft it in a way to actually, you know, roll out a... You you take someone like Stephen King, know, who could very masterfully just like... pen the story, put it out, could, you know, your emotions are all over the place during the thing. And, you know, he's the one, you know, pushing your emotions. Here, he just, you know, a tweet, it was a tweet, that's what it was. It's under 50 characters, his whole story. yeah,
Zelda Shleifer: It was a tweet. There you go. It's about...
Mike: so the mere fact that you the reader will have to do the interpretation, like it's in your own psyche that's now interpreting it to be said because, you know, it's like there was no story, you really didn't give you much, you just threw out a few words and it's like let you do the work of like a putting the emotions, building this... Like, you're the one who created this whole story that the baby never came to fruition. He didn't do that. That was you. You're more of a writer than he is because you gave this whole backstory. And that was my point.
Zelda Shleifer: Okay, I hear what you're saying. Okay, I get your point. But in the same way that movies use music to create mood,
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: that's just there, like the sentence. this is not everything there is about writing. But There is a story there. what the story is, is okay, so give me example.
Mike: There is no story. There is no story.
Zelda Shleifer: First stand up, let's talk, let's talk stand up here. So now it's your turn.
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: Give me an example of a stand up, you know, short, concise, all that fun stuff that tells the story. Putting you on the spot
Mike: what you just mentioned, excuse me, a moment ago about the music, the tone, music is like the, like in the movie Jaws, the music of the, you know, the, you know, how it escalates.
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah.
Mike: that creates the story that it's building suspense and it builds to like a crescendo. When it comes to comedy also, the tone of the performer plays a very big... If they're very... What's the word? They could be very deadpan or sarcastic. And so it's not necessarily the line, or could be the line, but it's a combination of the line and the delivery of the line. It's the delivery that makes the impact of the Jokeland much stronger, much harder. It basically punctuates, sort of like what the music does in a movie. It punctuates the story. But when it comes to stand-up, the most important thing is if you're not a household name and the audience doesn't know you and they're not conditioned to like you, the beginning is everything. They're not going to come with you on the journey if they don't like you. within the first three words, I would think it's the same thing for a book or a movie. You know, they have to like you instantly. There has to be something there engaging or something magnetic, something to attract them to come with you on the ride. The problem a lot of performers, comedians do, you know, like they'll start off, know, they'll... First words out of their mouth will be, hey, how you all doing? Or like... Are you guys having a good time? No, which right off the bat? It's they're already in a hole and you know half the audience, maybe not consciously Could be subconsciously they already turned off because it's too generic. They sound like everybody else out there, because they're using the same you can't differentiate between one performer and the next because they all use the same generic Hey, how's everyone doing? Yeah, where you all from? know, or did I miss you? the people that are craftsmen or unique or original they'll have like their own Their own unique opening which is like the beginning of a book to get the people hooked so like for me, it's You know, and it actually starts when the host, before the MC, the host brings the performer up, people make the mistake that they think it starts once you get the microphone and you start talking, but it really starts when the host makes your introduction,
Zelda Shleifer: comic Who crafts that then?
Mike: The comedian is supposed to, the performer is supposed to craft it, but unfortunately most performers are lazy and actually I wouldn't even say lazy. That's giving them too much credit. It's they're clueless. They don't realize that their introduction is everything. Whether or not people will come with them for the ride to hear their act is... And this is basically if you're not a household name, if the audience isn't conditioned to like you, your introduction when the host calls you up on the stage, that's everything. And unfortunately, if you go into any club nine times out of ten, you'll have ten comedians on the lineup, nine times out of ten, every single comedian. will be like, you may have seen this guy on The Tonight Show on Comedy Central, HBO, and then they'll bring him up and the audience is subconsciously turned off by the person because every single person on the lineup has the exact same intro. So it's like very...
Zelda Shleifer: It's also you're telling the person that they should like them, right?
Mike: Well, it's not only that, it's also that you're pigeonholing them, you're basically putting them into a box because in order to get onto like the Tonight
Show, know, Jimmy Fallon, like any of these people, and you know, not again how that's all junk today, but those shows today, the bookers for the shows take very specific type of people. And the thing is, most people don't watch any of these Tonight Shows, So by saying that this person was on the Tonight Show, why is that going to get the audience into them if they don't even watch that show when they're at home? Now why should I give this person the time of day because he was on a show that I don't want? So it's like the credibility they're trying to give to the person. It's not really credibility with the audience. It's like I'm supposed to be impressed. You made it onto... And most of the time they never were even on the show. It's just like a very generic thing. So, I heard from my friend, Elaine Boozler, who's like the first female comedian to get her own special on cable, and she really... you know she paved the way for every single female after her and i learned this trick from her when i would go around with her she when she would get called up onto the stage the only words the host or the mc is allowed to say is elaine boozler that's how she's getting brought up what it does is one is very refreshing because there's So first of all, most people know who she is. you're older than a certain age, They're not trying to like... She's not pigeonholed. She has every credit on the planet. So it's like, why let the credits define you? If you're being introduced on a stage and, he was It's like giving you... It pigeonholes you. that makes sense.
Zelda Shleifer: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So what advice do you have for comedy writers, comics, to...
Mike: So, just end on that. So, I learned from that. When I would have an intro to be called up on stage, I changed my intro. There was a time when I didn't care what the intro was, but then I decided to make it more personalized. I saw the importance that you have to win the crowd over with your character. You have to sell the character. So I had, the only thing the host is allowed to say is everybody mic fine and he means well. so right off the bat, like people are laughing at the intro. The guy's obviously different, you know, if that's his intro, he's not gonna, and right off the bat, like. It's become smooth sailing for me. So my advice would be is to find something that's, you know, about yourself or your personality or something that, you know, you, you could poke fun at and not, you know, not using anything generic, like actually spend the time and think of something that could, you know, stand out or be different Erase the words Comedy Central, erase the words to like none of that. It's all garbage. If you do that, you're just going to be bunched in with the rest of the other performers and the audience won't be willing to give you a chance. Do something, be original. And that's the thing where I said he means well, know there's a character coming up to the stage. And I do a bit of a character. Stage but like they know something different is coming and that's how I let them in on it
Zelda Shleifer: Okay, so do you, I know you tie that to your persona, your on stage persona. Is that something that you think people should tie to the persona they're trying to create as a stand up comic?
Mike: you know, actually finding your character on stage, could be a whole episode in and of itself. But you know, if there's something uniquely funny about you, and you're able to sort of like, cash in on that and figure out what it is and Work that into like the introduction to you're making an entry. Yeah picture your girlfriend or boyfriend's introducing you to the family how would you want them to like Introduce you just they're not gonna say he's a nice guy. This is so and so, you know, how's something original? You know, don't use something generic,
Zelda Shleifer: yeah, That was, you know, that with my mother-in-law, she thought I was just like, every other girl. And then she asked me what I thought my husband actually did. And I was like, I don't know, I kind of thought he flew over Africa counting the zebras, She was like, now I see why you're together.
Mike: Yeah.
Zelda Shleifer: So I see what you're saying.
Mike: Mmm.
Zelda Shleifer: So that's what I've got. You got any pearls of wisdom to add here, Mike?
Mike: No, not today. Hopefully next time. Actually I do, but I'm going to save it for next time. It's from Fred Allen. I'm in the middle of rereading one of my favorite books called Much to Do About Nothing. It's great his his life and you know going through vaudeville to becoming a huge star of radio and stage in the 50s and 60s so it's I'll say he
Zelda Shleifer: Yep.
Mike: gives some great writing advice in his book so I'll share it next time that's that the cliffhanger
Zelda Shleifer: Okay. He's the one did the sound He would bring in all the other like props to make the noises, right, from the stories.
Mike: He was one of those. He was a pioneer in radio, early radio. He was just a huge... He made it big in Vaudeville and he was a true pioneer. When you read the book about what these performers had to go through before People would travel by air... They'd be on a boat going to Australia for three months and you'd be in steerage and you'd have to sleep with, it's called the grouch bag, that's how Grouch, the name Grouch of Mark's brother, it was like a grouch bag and they would keep it tighter around their neck with all the money they would make from town to town because when they'd fall asleep at a train station someone could cut a hole in their pocket and they'd be out their entire two-year salary so they would sleep with it in a grouch bag around their neck or sewn into like the inseam, know, crazy stories.
Zelda Shleifer: Okay.
Mike: But he gave great advice in the beginning of his book and it's you know, good writers, people will reread their books, you know, many of times, I have a collection of, maybe we could do a whole episode on books that you've read more than once, you know.
Zelda Shleifer: that's a good idea. So, okay. that brings me down to the end here. it's been fun. We'll have to do it again next week. Till the next bye-bye.
Mike: It's been fun. Till the next time.